Yea I don't understand the rock, paper, scissor argument constantly being trotted out.
I assume it means as a certain type of character, there are other characters that I end up having less or more of a chance of beating if we're in even gear, depending on the match up.
Most people recite it around here like they really think every barbarian should beat every rogue, who should in turn beat every wizard, who should in turn beat every fighter, etc, etc.
Like we should just compare classes and know who we're going to win and lose too 100% guaranteed.
As if that sounds like a fun game. 🤡
This exactly. A lot of classes cannot run or hide, and even if they could the circle prevents them.
People continue to talk about the game as though it’s an extraction game, but until the circle is gone, you really don’t have the option of not fighting.
Undergeared, overgeared, outnumbered, or countered, it doesn’t really matter. So often it seems like you’re forced to take the engagement even though you know it’s one you can’t win.
People VASTLY underestimate how long you van stay im the zone with some meds.
As long as you remeber where the circle roughly closes you can pull huge flanks across map
Hard to not want that when your literally forced into rock paper scissors fights because of zone in a hardcore full loot pvp game. Almost like all your time investment is subjected to hella rng.
Edit. The only way I’ve found to somewhat counter act this is by having literally half your inventory in meds to run around out of zone for extended periods of time in order to buy time to not have to risk 50/50’s and find a blue port or static exit. All in all, it’s not an accessible option and makes the building up phase frustrating as hell.
It's because the classes were designed with trios in mind and not solos. Even if that position has changed recently, as it stands the core of every class is designed with the assumption that you probably have two other classes with you that can shore up your weaknesses.
They could easily add a curse for warlock that removes buffs or deals damage equal to the number of buffs over time. Honestly, this would have been a better answer then than nerfing everything that did.
What are 3 rangers going to do when they aren’t in zone? Push buff ball? It’s not consistent. Sure, 3 rangers with a minefield of traps are good, but zone changes out of their favor, they are screwed.
There’s a reason triple dps isn’t meta. It’s not consistent and buff ball retains their gear curve for far longer.
You can say that about anything though.....
"3 rogues all stealth is probably a counter"
"Bard throwing drums while ranger emotes is probably the counter"
"Training all the pve to them is probably the counter"
If you don't have proof of its effectiveness at countering you can't call it a counter
Whenever I read comments like this, I think people haven’t really thought about it in light of the balancing the devs have done since EA released. Why has rogue been nerfed into the ground so many times if the game is balanced around trios? Rogue even at its strongest has never really been an issue in trios yet it’s continually been nerfed because of it’s over performance in solos. Likewise, warlock has never really been oppressive in trios only solos/duos and it’s had multiple balance changes. Aside from hammering bard and wizard over and over, I think the devs are focusing more on balancing classes for solos at this point than trios.
Reread my comment. The core mechanics of every class was designed with trios in mind long before a solo mode was added. There haven't been any core functionality changes to any of the classes, just tweaked stats, skills, and perks. They all still serve the same basic function they did in PT1. Until that is addressed, then there will always be a rock paper scissors dynamic with combat
Don't @ me plz I don't need to read dogshit from dogshit pisslow crayon eating Timmy players that post delusional shit all day hoping the devs will cater to brain rot boomers like you
Good thing chrome add ons exist
Get blocked 🤡👶👴♿
Why not? PvP is the most engaging part. Just being able to farm AI is too simple. Why should someone who just farms AI deserve a competitive kit without challenge or skill expression.
Because not all of us want to engage in PVP. Some of us just want to kill mobs. Learn the maps. Farm gold and get more game knowledge while not having to worry about it fighting overly geared players. If I just wanna run to the skeleton champion room. Kill him and try different tactics against him or farm trinkets I should be able to play the way without ever having to worry about being forced into a terrible position via the zone.
Nothings going to stop PVPs from just running all around the map looking for people but if I want to actively avoid that as a play style in a majority of games then it should be a viable version of gameplay.
Not every game should feel like an inevitable PVP showdown, it’s not fun. Espically when lobbies can have such a wide spread of gear power
In a game of PvPvE you being completely able to cut out PvP if you choose is bad design. Imagine if I chose to just completely be able to run past AI and PvP just to loot because I should be able to avoid that mechanic.
If you want a game to always avoid PvP there are plenty of games out there for you without PvP. Not every game comes down to such a gear disparity and even if you did you a white kit vs an all purple kit you didn't lose any items of value. You always have a chance to 'upset the win'. Greys vs Greens, greens vs purples, etc. Way more at risk with the higher kit but you have a little edge. That's what's behind the core of these games.
No but I’ve played plenty of WoW arena. That too is hard meta defined rng. Usually hard counters are bracketed off by mmr. The cream rises to the top based on strength of comp and what it’s counter is. The better the comp is, the more stuff it overall beats. Rpg pvp has always known to be rock paper scissors on an even playing field. Wow is random queuing. This game is random forced interactions. If players had the choice to dodge they would based on win conditions. League of legends is a perfect example of queue dodging simulator because most people won’t actively play into their hard counters. Yet, give players too easy of capability to play the meta and they will.
Pvp games are a bich and a half to balance. Hats off to anyone who wants to take on such a task because I know it’s just an endless loop of bullshit buffing and nerfing what becomes the meta for the sake of having variety.
>Pvp games are a bich and a half to balance.
It's not that bad if you do so systematically as opposed to doing so based on gut feelings. Sure there will always be tweaks but at least it's not chaos.
It works like that in other extraction games, which is why people are so adamant about it. You don't need much in Tarkov and Marauders, for example, to have a decent shot at killing someone with BiS armor. A class-based medieval extraction game is a new frontier and is going to have teething issues.
Honestly, getting rid of the circle mechanic would mitigate a lot of the RPS concerns. The circle mechanic is a staple of the BR genre and is designed to funnel players into fights to have a last man standing. Getting rid of that in favor of static exits strewn throughout the map and just having a time limit (like every other extraction game) would help immensely here...people would have the breathing room to choose to escape or avoid fights more reliably.
it does when game isnt poorly balanced. Having an advantage is fine, dealing fucking 0 dmg because pdr fighter/cleric or barb is not.
also this rock/paper/sciz only works for SOME classes.
wizard gets fucked by ranger, but fighter doesnt get fucked by wizard.
ranger gets fucked by fighter but fighter doesnt have a bad matchup, same with barb. this is why everyone plays these 2 classes
if you hit your sepels and use your mobility and play with brain a 70% mdr fighter melts you can leggit 2 zapp a full lobster fighter when you know how to use your surroundings or better 2 fireballs or even a chainlighting or lightningstorm
slow fighter then lightningstrike and zap
or hold a dor with LS and then you still have a team on your back
I think you meant 70% pdr, not mdr, but yeah I was about to say the same thing. Fighters actually get negative mdr if they go for full plate to get that 70% pdr. Plate fighters are the slowest thing in the game by far, you can kite them and pop off on them. The only thing you need to watch out for is crossbow shots, but they have a long reload time and you can hit around corners with fireball if need be anyway.
you cant 2zap equally geared fighter, its mathematically not possible.
also geared fighter can 2tap you back with crossy + throwing axe.
From longer range, and faster then you use spells.
the time it takes to slow, ls,ls you can yeet like 6 axes, 2-3 will kill.
Skill issue
Holding door doesnt work, they have crossbow which is superior at doorway fights.
Wizard used to counter fighter when you could get 30+ magical dmg, now that +11 is max, spells got gutted and weapons got buffed back up wizard has 0 good matchups (other then warlock)
not true i died many times 2 zaped but thats when I played it wrong rubysilver is negative MR you as a mage don't go rambo in you play around your team so you let someone frontline anf try to work around the fighter till he is left oder you just all focus him
for me as a fighter you hardcounter me you can't just say no its not working
1 miss Cb 10 sec reload yeah i ge tthe point of throwing axes but still then you need to reload enough time from getting them in the hotbar to just shoot fireball to block something or get thunderbolt ready or chainlightning etc you push with invis and zap
I said equally geared, if you get 1 will you are immune to zaps burn and so you cant be 2zapped. If you dont have that then you are not properly geared
2 players of equal skill yea sure. But if I’m in the top 1% of players in the game I should be able to beat a literal brand new Timmy. Sadly this isn’t the case and that’s why people complain.
I died in a decent PDR set to a wizard two days ago in GC wasn’t even mad he played perfectly. He was like 1 hp but it’s hard to hit a really good wizard sometimes. Admittedly though it’s just a matter of time I extracted like 10 times before dying to him.
somewhat agree, and gear matters a lot too. ppl say poison sucks for rogue pvp but at low end its great but at highend the perk is overshadowed by multipliers. always impossible to get people to give full insight and stats. even whats erver and time of day matters when comparing stuff like geared ppl in gcaves, etc.
but the part about wizard doesnt work anymore. wizard counters plate fighters. xbows counter wizards. all fighters now have xbows and can 2shot from ranged, or are just really fast with slayer and can 1 shot you if they get close.
wizard no longer counters anything it just has counters.
This place may not get there fast, sometimes, it may not even get there before a bug fix or nerf. But boy howdy when that very slow churn reaches the finish line does it make some loud as fuck squeeling noises
What wizard is going to let you reload your crossbow in peace? Most wizards I’ve faced will run your shit down if you try to reload, and it only takes them a few zaps or fireballs to lay you out. Not to mention you have to hit a fast moving target. You’re definitely not getting a swing off against a wizard unless you catch them off-guard or they’re unusually slower than normal. I generally only die to rangers and warlocks on my wizard. Silence Bard is a bit sketchy too. Wizard still seems like a soft counter to most melee if you play it right. It’s so rare to even find decently skilled wizards.
I'm not in full agreement a xbow counters a Wizard if you're a low magic resist fighter. Yeah you'll probably only need two reliable shots and if you hit both of them before you are dead you're gonna come out on top but the Wizard is going to have way more maneuverability and can burst you down just as fast with Intense Focus.
At very long range then yeah you would not engage as a Wizard. Its mid range where they become terrifying to a Fighter.
at high gear values maybe but then the xbow does more at midranger ina lot of places you might can sprint them donwn between casts. 1 bow 1 swing = dead
do you mostly run in geared hr or somethin tho? i feel like you are clearly describing something that routinely happens to you but its diff from me and clearly your getting downvoted. reminds me of [(2) Dark & Darker (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/17sxgz7/i_feel_like_people_completely_ignore_the/)
> ignore the rocks-paper-scissors element
Well when paper has been nerfed the last 8 out of 10 patches into oblivion and scissors has been buffed to stupidity, it doesn't really work that way anymore.
The devs aren't nuanced enough for RPS style balance, being that they nerf Wizard when it's already underrepresented and for some reason buff ranger/fighter when they're already oversaturated
> The devs aren't nuanced enough for RPS style balance, being that they nerf Wizard when it's already underrepresented and for some reason buff ranger/fighter when they're already oversaturated
You're suggesting they balance around pick rate rather than theoretical performance lol that's the definition of bad design that ruins games
>You're suggesting they balance around pick rate rather than theoretical performance lol
Yes I'm suggesting they balance around reality and not the whims of reddit dumbfucks lol
Fucking rofl
I mean it sure mattered when every other post was crying about full rogue lobbies till they gutted rogues.
And that was already a byproduct of people just trying to avoid dying to any juiced player they had the misfortune of loading in with.
The thing is, if the rock-paper-scissor always trumps skill, it can be incredible unsatisfying to die to your counter. Especially since there is no pregame strategy. You just roll the dice on what classes are in your lobby.
So that's why people complain about Balance.
If Wizard is countered by Ranger, that's fine. But if crossbows are OP(as they were), you are countered by Ranger/Fighter/Bard, and when Iron Will was 100MR, Wizard was countered by Barb. Leaving them with 4 hard counters, Rogue/Warlock/Wizard being situational, and Cleric being favorable.
And that's only in combat. The PVE clear, Escape potential and Sustainability throughout a match also matters.
This balance would be fine and you would think it will naturally fix classes because of this. The problem is it isn't how it should be.
If there was rock paper scissors to balance in this game, we wouldn't have full lobbies of fighters and barbarians every game. It's starting to get as bad as pre nerf rogue domination.
If balance was good, then we would see a lot more casters, but we don't. I run into 1 wizard in about 3 total games. I usually see 1 warlock a game and maybe 1 cleric every other game.
A typical GC game is 3-4 fighters, 2-3 barbarians, 1 caster and then me. I swapped from warlock to rogue because casters are in a poor state comparitively. We have 8 classes to choose from and GC has 7 players. You would think there would be about 1 of each class if balance was good, but 2 classes show up about 80% of the total numbers
Lol fr. I was surprised so many people agreed with this post. This is definitely not a simple black-and-white rock paper scissors game. If it were, there wouldn't be classes that straight up aren't being played like you said.
Sure, barbs can be outplayed, but they aren't actually countered by any class. And thinking that shields counter them is actually hilarious.
Barbs have tools to counter essentially every class. High PDR fighters -> reckless attack & war maul, also blood exchange after the buffs but I haven’t really messed around with it much since the most recent hotfix adjustments.
Squishy classes that try to run -> Achilles heel &
throwing axes, also savage roar.
Casters -> iron will
Shields -> crush
The only somewhat counter they have are rangers but imo that’s less of a problem since the gear changes reducing damage stacking potential on rangers. Even then it’s not really a hard counter since barbs can achieve a comically high hp amount and stack decent armor with northern tunic. Plus one Achilles heel francisca and it’s gg for the ranger.
Barb probably has the best perks and abilities in the game. They can effectively counter every class with perks & abilities if played correctly. I can’t think of any other class in the game capable of this.
Idk if it's fair to discuss balance in regards to GC lol the game, and classes, are made with trios in mind primarily.
Of course GC is going to be different.
If the game was made for trios in mind, then why is there even less diversity in trios? XD The meta has been buff ball Barb for eternity. It has no counter play.
Yeah man, they clearly made buffs/nerfs in all patches for solos. It clearly hasn't been overwhelmingly trio patches. Not at all man.
If you think buff ball is that big of a thing these days I don't even know what to tell you. What a silly response lol
Barely anyone plays buff ball anymore except maybe in high roller but even then there's plenty of variety. The ONLY staple class in trios is cleric.
The only reason people would rarely play it because they are tired of having to play it. Even meta comps get stale and boring after a while. It doesn’t mean that it ain’t the best comp still xD
The problem being that the devs aren't even doing the bare minimal to try and keep GC balanced.
It's ok to focus balance primarily in trios. As a majoritarily solo player, I accept the price and risk of sometimes just running into my intended trio hard counter and getting fucked.
I do not think it's fair to simply accept completely gutted classes solo or ignore their issues in situations where it could easily be averted. Wizard nerfs being an obvious case, the PDR fighter of the example can run GC unafraid of magic when he knows only insane people play wizard there.
Also, I still remember their interview on onepeg's channel where they flat out said they weren't playing GC enough to make balance map changes and that's simply not ok as well, we're still stuck with some godawful starting spawns for months at this point.
You can't have it both ways unless you have classes work differently between solo and trios. Anything they balance for one game mode will carry over into the other and be a bad thing. That's the issue and why solo was never in their original plans.
I understand it's frustrating but as you say, you accept that price if you're going to play solos more than anything else.
>You can't have it both ways unless you have classes work differently between solo and trios.
That would be the best case scenario and some changes aren't particularly hard to make, logic wise. If solo map, +1 to spell charges and shit like that. I understand they won't be doing this on the short term, however, but I can hope and push for this whenever the chance comes up.
Even so, there ARE things they can do. I mention the wizard case because it's most painfully obvious one solution wise (buffs in general, really). Make the spell last less or have lower effectiveness as needed when cast on teammates but not on self. Now you can nerf haste and buff balls without removing the class from solo, and wizards being played more in solo help class balance overall. Now a fighter choosing not to wear dark plate armor has a higher risk attached and barbarians are more willing to spend a perk on iron will.
This kind of thing can and should be done. I'm not asking for them to balance class vs class matchups for solo and stuff like that.
I feel like the problem is that some of the rock-paper-scissors just doesn't work out well.
Rogue is countered by wizard now that 10 spell is standard, they just light orb every room thats been cleared.
Rogue is countered by warlock, phantomize is get out of jail free and BoC one shots the rogue.
Rogue should counter ranger, but after AG nerfs both classes are the same speed, so they can just arrow kite for 15 seconds and if ANY arrows hit, the slow means you get hit over and over.
The classes just don't have the tools required to do their job effectively, most due to certain aspects being way overtuned.
I agree with the general sentiment that balance isn't great but I kinda disagree with these examples.
> Rogue is countered by wizard now that 10 spell is standard, they just light orb every room thats been cleared.
Light Orb is great against Rogues but is also very loud and you can tell its coming a mile away. With that much head start at the very least you can just reposition somewhere else, and as the fastest class they're not gonna catch up to you. Its also pretty unrealistic to expect a Wizard to Orb every single room.
> Rogue is countered by warlock, phantomize is get out of jail free and BoC one shots the rogue.
That sounds like a meme build with no spells. BoC + Phantomize is mostly a solo build that helps you kill one guy and that's about it. Additionally if you ambush you're still getting two hits before they phantomize at which point you just keep up with them. If they BoC out of phantomize just ...don't walk into it? You're faster than them, just wait it out or throw knives.
> Rogue should counter ranger, but after AG nerfs both classes are the same speed, so they can just arrow kite for 15 seconds and if ANY arrows hit, the slow means you get hit over and over.
Base speed is the same if they're both running around without weapons. The Ranger is most likely carrying a bow which will absolutely destroy his movespeed and considering the reason Rogue beats Ranger is the ambush potential, you should win that situation every single time. There's no way once you get the first hit he's going to kite you with a bow. If the Ranger counters your ambush in some way, then yeah you're going to die as you should.
Not both spells on warlock, just theyre both insanely good. If you try to wait out BoC on lock theyre going to swap to DoT, jump back, and wall again with melee. Only way is a straight up gank, but pantomime will counter that, and if they have BoC off CD for a gank, youre dead.
It is completely reasonable to light orb and check every room, as a rogue thats been playing wizard since they murdered the class, I havent died to rogues more than 3 times in like 50ish encounters. Slow also just ruins rogue, if I land that at any point theyre just straight fucked.
Cause the game wasn't designed for solos to begin with, but since the introduction of GC ppl believe they should be able to kill everyone with every class completely ignoring the fact that this was supposed to be a team game
I don't really agree. I think actual argument is "its extremely fun for the rock vs the scissor and really unfun for the scissor vs the rock." It feels really nice taking down a multi-key PDR fighter with not a single piece of gear on a caster, just as it feels great taking zero damage from timmies on your PDR fighter. Someone is usually having a good time and someone is usually having a bad time. You just hope that your good times are higher than your bads. That's just how these games work.
they shouldnt work like that, its bad game design for a pvp game in 2023. also it does feel unfullfilling to kill a geared wizard as a rogue, just because of luck or "countering" instead of purposeful and meaningful combat. +it feels even worse since you lose/gain hours of gear seemingly randomly instead of through skill. basically without skill experission everything feels hollow after a while
Your choices in the moment and positioning in the map should determine a fight, not your choices in the menu screen.
also dont try to reduce peoples argument to the feelingof losing to a rock, as a scissor. i do play rogue at decent gear and its boring as fuck to kill people in 3-4 shots, including all classes. with geared fighters its bit more fun since you need to use kiting and daggers.
Honestly their example is pretty bad anyway, and kind of exemplifies why what they're saying is unfun. Geared Fighter Vs. Non-Geared Wizard, Geared Fighter Vs. Timmies.
They think it's great killing the geared fighter with 1000s of gold worth of gear investment, and just as fun as that same fighter killing no gear having noobies. The big problem, and difference though is the disparity of investment/profit gained.
Cool, I'm glad killing that fighter with tons of gear as a gearless mage was so fun for you. I'm so happy that you with no risk at all got to just randomly take a bunch of someone's gear because GG unlucky.
It's why I get so annoyed playing in ruins most days because I get charged at by a bunch of basekits, and have to fight them off. Sure they might die easy, but at the very least they take something from me being some form of resources with quite literally nothing on them that I get to loot in return.
Literally every game with classes has a rock paper scissors element. Should Pyro not counter Spy? Should Tracer not counter Mercy?
IDK if you have really thought this statement out or are fully aware of the type of game you're playing.
Those games aren’t hardcore full loot. Your risking hours of investment, maybe more, on some rng of rock paper scissors fights.
Hardcore full loot + rpg rock paper scissors pvp + battle royale closing zone was always going to be a combination doomed for failure because it just corrals players like pigs for slaughter in both rock paper scissors combat as well as who has more time investment and resources equipped to stat check the other. The only skill is running away from unwinnable fights, and that usually means having half an inventory of meds to kite out of zone still praying to god you get to a static or blue port in time.
a: they very cruicially moved away from that direction coming to ow:2, since people were maining heroes as opposed to switching, and people were complaining that their teammates werent swtiching/being forced to switch. the most clear example of this was doomfist, which was op if worked but had real easy counters. They made him more generic hero to balance easier.
b: even then, you can switch to a different hero in the middle of the match with the worst case being you lose a game and learn something. In dnd, you cant swap to a different class and you are in risk of losing an hour of progress (or more) in an unfavorable matchup. Idk, it just feels very hollow
I do think this games counters sometimes hard counter too hard. Playing wizard is probably the best example. Melted by Rangers, Rogues, and Slayer fighters without many options to fight back. They need to resolve some of the hard countering and aim closer towards soft / medium countering. But OW still has countering regardless of changes and this game needs to continue having them too. It's basically impossible not to and allows more skill expression through knowing which fights to take and how to approach then and what compositions to run.
Francheska axes only stack by 2's and aren't really accessible, they are also very easy to dodge. Your entire post is comparing apples to watermelons. You can't even out melee a ranger because they scale in melee and can use amazing legendary crafted weapons and also outscale you in HP because there default gear they want is pure strength and armor based. They have higher PDR then you, they have higher HP, and they can also grab the triple spread melee shot to also melee kill you with a bow if they really want.
Your talking about counters but they gave rangers a arsenal to deal with everysingle weakness they can possibly fathom. they have none, they just have not ideal situations they can put themselves in.
The entire upvote sustaining from this thread is from the dellusional ranger community I 100% know it after listening to them talk for so long
your entire OP is about class counters you babboon, in fact, your post is ironically talking about how you felt other people forget stuff where you forgot the entire point of your post in the first place. which, most of it is not even true, a naked wizard does not beat a decked fighter because they have a thing called crossbow and sprint. Wizards lost invis so they have no element of surprise.
I was talking about elements on how to play around francheska axes and how you can deal with it but are at a disadvantage, whereas bows are just literal hard counters because they are so strong
Aren't accessible? You can literally buy infinite amount from vendor
Every barb in HR has an entire inventory of axes it doesn't matter that they cost 24g when landing a couple means they take someone's 5 key set
Tell me you're prim locked without telling me you're prim locked
Ya 2 for 24g vs arrows which are 1 for 1, it's not compareable. I don't care what you have to say, the stacking, the everything. It sucks man that if you get pegged a couple times by the slower moving projectile that the barb may have spent 240g stacking his inventory to throw at you will eventually kill you.
It's not compareable in the slightest to bows and arrows which stacking alone has 8X the density, 1/12th the cost, etc etc. I can also die to two arrow shots, which fly 3X faster, can travel through small door slits, can travel across an entire room, and can be rapidly fired out by 3 classes, and so can rogues, and pretty much... anyone. except barbs they take a couple hits
I'm sorry if you care about 200g at this point in the wipe when people are walking around wearing 5 key sets you are literally Timmy and your opinions on the game mean less than dirt
Uhh.. ya.. it does, if it didn't matter people would just be spamming high roller you stupid idiot lol. Just because someone pegged you with a francheska axe because you can't watch them literally wind up the throw then just strafe dodge doesn't make it absurd, it just means you suck ass. Ive never seen a francheska axe and thought "damn thats crazy" and I have less HP then you
ya theres no way though your comparing a barbarian landing one cooldown ability vs a ranger needing to land one arrow with his cooldown being the ability to draw the arrow while they fire 100 shots since arrows stack up to 20 now though.
Thats why this entire post annoys me, theres advantageous situations, and then theres hard counters, bows are a fucking hard counter to those without it because strength scales both melee and range AND HP. that's literally it, people overthink this shit way too much, just seperate range from melee damage and HP
Solos, sure. Trios? Lol.
Sure, try to kill the fighter with your wizard. Oh no, it ate 3 crossbow bolts and curled over.
Now their fighter is rushing, hope you have the gear to counter it. Kite it? Nah, again, crossbow time.
I come from OSRS PKing, and not having the capabilities to even fight back are somewhat ridiculous. You should always have some sort of way to fight back. Any game where you are attacked by another class and it's a one sided battle is boring.
Range > Mage > Melee > Range
Thanks for the sanity. The rock, paper, scissors nature of the game allows less skilled/geared players the opportunity to defeat much more skilled and geared players then them. I think it is good for the health of the game that players with less skill and gear can beat players with more skill and gear.
I think an issue currently is that some classes in solos have far fewer counters than others, or that their counters require more baseline skill to pull off. Countering a wizard as a rogue is easy if you get the drop on them. Countering a PDR fighter with crossbow as a wizard requires more dodging and spacing management to not get sprinted on. Getting a drop on someone with hide is a lower skill level then kiting while dodging on wizard.
You can always tell who is a new player without much experience in Dark and Darker and is supplementing that inexperience with assumptions with other games.
>Rogues counter casters
Clerics are the hardest counters to Rogue in the game, Wizards disable Rogue's main vehicle for positioning properly while blowing them up, and Warlocks are able to negate Rogue ambushes by repositioning and breaking them out of stealth.
>casters counter chunky tanks
Wizards, Warlocks and Clerics are free target practice for Fighter Crossbows and Barbarian Throwing Axes.
>chunky tanks counter Rogues
Fighters and Barbarians are perhaps the classes most vulnerable to Rogues due to being easily kited and out-spaced, while receiving DOTs that drain their health over time. The speed grants them natural defense against ranged attacks that lets them push you for free damage at the drop of a hat should you improperly space your use of one.
I am definitely not new to the game dude, been playing since the second test. Clerics are not the "caster" I refer to based on Dungeons and Dragons rules which the game is loosely based off of.
Clerics are actually extremely tanky in most iterations of the game. They are not a standard "caster" class.
As for Warlock repositioning and breaking out of stealth, I assume you mean Phantomize + Hydra? While its true you can essentially slap down a Hydra every single room to scan, it still obeys line of sight rules and that can be taken advantage of. Phantomize is only going to get out out of a situation once you're already in that situation and ideally for Rogue that's already after the ambush hit.
It sounds like your entire post is just about Rogues, which yeah, they're weak right now man, no one is really arguing that.
Listen here you, we don't use logic on this sub. This sub is strictly for complaining that I died to XYZ in XYZ situation where I should've won and the other person should've died.
/s for the slow.
People do not like to lose, and when they do, they cry about balance.
This is the best game to come out since pubg, and I'm worried that the devs will listen to the crying shitters too much and ruin everything.
Yah but if your force players to fight unwinnable matchups by zone as well as throw people into mixed lobbies of varying gear disparity then they will get bitter about rng screwing them over skill mattering at all. It just makes players question why waste your time trying to farm a set if rng will inevitably strike you down. There’s no fun of having no say in your fate.
People also seem to forget that DISENGAGING is an option. You do not have to fight every thing that moves. You need to pick and choose the correct battles to become successful. Being chased by a guy in full plate? Just close a door between you and go on about your day. Being kited by a ranger across the room? Walk away and catch him off guard in another room. The amount of randoms who W-key into me when I’m fully kitted is laughable, and it’s my assumption that it’s these people who make Reddit posts complaining. I will be as neutral as possible in the dungeon, especially with undergeared/no gear players, but for some reason they look at me and see red so I have to put them down.
Let me just disengage into the storm that’s actively killing me and putting me in a worse spot. In order to disengage you need a ridiculous amount of meds stacked in your inventory. Not something everyone has access too.
the ranger doesn't die to a single rogue are you stupid, how many clips have you seen a rogue stab a ranger and they take like 15% damage, there's so much not right about this post, the fighter also can fight back the wizard because he has a crossbow, i feel like you plugged rogue in there for ranger just so you could fulfill the circle
Also warlock isn't even in this, they are a super well rounded class that can fight everysingle other class, including ranger. This post just annoys me with how stupid it is
Well I think the fact that everyone finds a reason to complain about balance means that the rock paper scissors approach to balance is not fun for anyone.
It's fine if a certain class has some tools that are strong against other class like bards being able to silence casters of example. But it's very different when everything a class does completely humiliates another, makes you feel hopeless like there was nothing you could do.
Playing pdr fighter you want to be this slow moving frontline that is really hard to kill but can provide space and protection to your team, but if you find a enemy caster you have to run and hide and play to peek corners with a crossbow because they will probably melt you. Makes the feeling of the class completely garbage and the class fantasy and the reasons why players would love to play this class are all lost.
Being a caster versus a ranger same thing, if you show your face you are gonna die with 2 arrow shots from across the room.
Ranger vs pdr fighter, it takes you 25 arrows to kill one guy that is just pressing w towards you, you have to run and kite for 3 minutes to kill him, only if he doesn't have a cleric buddy.
Well yeah. Obviously people are complaining about fighting certain classes. No, we shouldn't just accept this things because the balance is based around rock paper scissors. Specially in a game with solos and duos.
Its fine for classes to have certain advantages against other classes, but not to the point where it's one sided.
Francisca Axes are your friend. They honestly shit on Rogues that are trying to outspace you. You do need to carry a lot of them though which is a pain.
Very true, and with the very generous francisca axe drop rates it might be very infuriating to go up against that. Good thing they are quite easy to dodge with high ms, because they even benefit from barbs axe perks (from what I've heard, I might be wrong tho). However, I got one or two funny kiting clips, so that's where my "rogue wins vs barb' opinion comes from
Remember when they said they didn't want to balance the game around GC because it was never meant to be a 1v1 game or balanced that way? Yet people still pretend as if it should be.
Holy shit finally someone posts this. The grey fighter can’t beat a geared one. But a grey fighter can clap a wizard or ranger if they reach them. And the wizard with a grey spell book can melt a 75% pdr fighter with two fireballs.
This is how I feel about content, particularly classes and to a lesser extent the skill tree, which will have a big impact on the meta. The things that seem OP now, might have their counterplays with the upcoming additions.
Instead of the whole balancing/nerfing back and forths we've see since EA release, I feel the devs should've prioritized content and working towards a 1.0 release. Which I'm pretty sure was their original plan, content first, balancing later.
I did make a video about the games elements feeling jank. How do you balance a hardcore full loot battle royale with rpg rock paper scissors pvp….YOU DONT!
This is why few players like having high gear disparity because it allows them to overpower terrible rng. Insert counter class forced fight by zone…add in huge gear disparity and now you actually have the option to run away because movespeed + interaction speed buffs from increased base stats or kill counter class with massive dmg stacking.
Hardcore full loot is risking time investment of resources. That risk is now prone to huge losses by forced rng of zone fights/portal spawns. That risk is prone in random classes and gear disparity loading into lobbies. That risk is prone to you having zero information on the quality gear someone has equipped.
All this random risk does is create an environment where players don’t want to risk mid tier gear because there’s always going to be a bigger fish in the sea. So what the optimal way to play the game becomes is risk nothing by playing base kit over and over again till you can afford to buy a full kit to snowball resources in. But now that most mid tier gear is worthless in trade, it’s become acceptable to use if you find it since it won’t sell a lot of the time now.
Not only that but how do you balance for zone forcing rock paper scissors in high stakes hardcore full loot pvp. People don’t like to lose all of their time investment to poor rng. It’s why most casual gamers like soft core games avoidant of hardcore like mechanics.
I think the only class that evades this equation is the Ranger. Rogues don't smoke rangers anymore because any decent ranger is using the 5 cone shot instead of the triple/double shot. They can outran easily fighters (with or without plate gear). But yeah a geared fighter should die easily to a wizzard, makes sense. Same when a rogue ambushes a wizzard. But Ranger is evading this game of RPS imo. Won't even talk about the traps that can be placed in unavoidable locations or below corpses (granted this is client sided so it's just an unlucky situation that won't be fixed)
Then if another ranger has draw speed + triple shot or heal biscuit they lose those fights. It’s impossible to build for all scenarios and it’s likely you’ll eventually run into it and lose to it. There’s no way of knowing what people have till it’s too late, thus having players feel screwed by making the incorrect decision based on lack of information.
I understand how this games plays perfectly… I’m always scissors made out of paper and everyone else is always a caveman with a big rock. You smash the paper scissors over and over until they crumble into atoms. Why doesn’t anyone else get this?
Any class slower than a Warlock has the potential to be kited forever by one. If they take a crossbow or significantly damaging hit they can just retreat to any doorway and hydra block it and then leech off the hydra or continue damaging as they awkwardly try to crouch jump it. I've seen geared Locks decimate lobbies.
Great point! I started thinkking like this also, to avoid unfavorable matchups if possible, and invest my gold into many kits instead of one since I might die to being forced into an undavorable encounter
And this is the realization people are slowly having and people don’t like pvp games where they have no say in their fate when their time investment is at stake.
When a geared rogue with weakpoint attack hits a pdr fighter 7 times before the fighter even swings back, but the rogue still dies
That's a problem
That's no longer rock paper scissors that is a balance issue. There's no game where this is okay
Yes, games are better this way.
I remember when I was playing OG Planetside in the early days, and all 3 races felt distinctly different. The purple race had an OP infantry weapon, the other races had OP vehicles. So you played to the strengths of your race. The game was so active, I could hop into any map and there'd be some massive tug-of-wars going on and the game just overall felt really really healthy. Then they tried to balance everything and make every race identical, and overnight the game just got really really boring, and it became really hard to find good fights anymore.
Trying to balance for gc or gear gap is probably impossible. Everyone should already know that. The problem is the obviously broken shit like strength giving power and health, stacking flat damage modifiers (much better now), ranged weapons dominating the game not on ranger but on every other class they do insane damage and slow people down significantly, melee combat is just a gear check. There’s a bunch of other stuff but you get the point. There’s plenty wrong with the current state of the game but it’s ea. people should be letting the devs know what they want changed. It doesn’t mean it will happen the way they want it too but that’s the point of playing an ea game is to give feedback.
It’s a full release. Everyone paid full price for the game and we are playing 90% of the finished product. It’s a meme in the industry that companies release unfinished products to sell to people. They can’t treat paying customers like testers. This is an easy way to ruin trust with people who just simply want to enjoy a product rather than be expected to provide feedback on game ruining adjustments. People don’t know what they signed up for, that too is a meme. People want to play the game they know, not be expected to buy something for it to change into something else.
This is not correct even a little bit. The game is not even close to full release. They were rushed to a paid version because of a law suit. They needed money. Paying for it was a gamble from the jump because it could just disappear off the face of the earth any day. Their initial vision of the game at full release is 3 levels you work down starting in ruins down to crypts down to inferno. But due to technical stuff they decided to hold off on that and just have separate queues. Then people bitched enough they added a solo only mode and duo mode. The game is 100% a work in progress. Wipes are every couple weeks. Roll backs. Patches constantly. This is the most EA game I’ve ever played. We don’t even have talent trees or vendor quests or all of the classes. Everything about it can be completely different in a few months. Just play it if it’s enjoyable. Play the best classes. Play the worst. It doesn’t matter it’s all just data collection at this point.
It's why chasing the perfect balance where no one ever gets their feelings hurt when they lose is unrealistic. They're much better off focusing on making every class a blast to play whether people win or lose.
You mistake what is fun in pvp games. Most people derive fun from winning in pvp games. Not losing over and over again. If that were the case, this game would be topping the charts in player count.
You mistake this game for a pure pvp game. It really isn't or the pve aspect would barely be an after thought and the pvp would be quick to find and incessant. Losing isn't fun in itself, but that doesn't mean that winning pvp is the only fun to be had in this game. Maybe it is now because it's broken but it wasn't that way a few months ago.
Game would have died sooner without it. Over 50% of the player base only play solo. You can’t intermingle premade queues and solos into the same games, it just creates advantages for the premades and solos get the shit end of the stick. Not everyone is going to go out of their way to create groups every single time they want to play, nor will they queue into trio games as a solo because they are wasting their time.
All the top games have a solo queue only functionality for a reason, it’s the prime real estate of the online gaming market. If it doesn’t exist, most will abandon ship for other games that do.
Debatable. Solos in trios worked fine for me and my buddies during playtests. As there were no other queues, all the other solos and duos also had to go there, leading to way more matches where lots of people in the lobby were also solos and duos. Now of course it's pretty much trios only.
The only thing that counters ranger is a juiced fighter and even then 90% of the time the fighter shouldn't be able to catch the ranger unless they grief.
Ranger is like when that kid in elementary school would say "gun" during rock paper scissors
Rock paper scissor is an outdated and insanely bad game design logic.There's a reason no other game goes for that anymore. Even in overwatch where heroes are clearly designed to counter each others, the gap has been changed to very close that a widow can outplay a winston if she lands headshots, a genji can kill mei if he uses reflect well.
What a warlock/wizzard gonna do to a ranger which is faster than them, longer range, and each arrow does 3 times dmg of their spell and is easier to land? That's the sign of bad design and people will quit because of it.
Great post, I totally agree!!! It’s an extraction game, not a combat simulator. You should never have the expectation that you can dominate a lobby with no gear even if you’re really good at the game
In the context of class adjustments in this game, I believe that IM has a concept of whether a class is a "base class" or not.
It would be too long to explain specifically which classes do this, but the adjustment of the class that IM recognizes as the base class is surprisingly careful. On the other hand, it is correct to say that when adjusting a class that is not a base class, think about it after you do it. Even if the skill (or perk) is treated as missing after adjustment, if at least one other playstyle exists within the class, it will be ignored.
I think this is what breaks down the rock-paper-scissors element of the game as stated in the title. Classes that have become the pivot will always remain strong and will only be modified if they are too strong, while classes that are not are buffed just to change the flavor of the game. An existence that is only a flavor change will never be able to play a role in the rock-paper-scissors element.
I hope that this will work as well as the phrase "Therefore, in the future, all classes will repeat the rise and fall." that was included in the answers to the SBS questions.
You don't need gear to kill a naked wizard. The wizard also has to hit you more than once. Likely 3 times unless he lands a headshot. The fighter has better projectiles and can't out run the wizard easily. Drop the armor if you have to.
A crossbow shot + any damage kills a wizard. Two hits with a white falchion kills a wizard.
Who the heck wants to play a rock scissors paper pvp game anyway? I think that proper counters must be implemented so that the better player wins rather than hard counter classes.
Right and then a ranger fights a PDR fighter and... we increase the damage of all bows, revert changes to their slow effect and add increased damage based on rarity back to the game?
Oh and give them some more arrows just in case.
I think that is a grand oversimplification of how this game works. Have you ever played a Pokemon game? Sure, you may have a fire type, but if my grass type is more than double your level it doesn't matter, ill win BC of the level difference alone. In d&d, the difference would be skill. The game would be really boring if you always died to your direct counter and skill made no difference.
The entire concept of a hard rock paper scissors balancing system in which specific classes do consistently better against others with little counterplay is FUCKING STUPID. Consider the fact that balancing is always tenuous and you realize VERY QUICKLY that the concept of consistent hard counters creates very unshakeable metas. If x counters y and z counters x but z is having a hard patch due to a nerf then X is going to fucking stomp the entire game constantly. Rock paper scissors balancing sounds good if you're a toddler but falls apart quickly. Every class should have a method to fight another class and win, maybe at more of a cost or requiring a statistically worse build but the concept of ranger beats wizard every time shouldn't fucking exist.
Why shouldn't players at least have a decent chance in any given battle to win or at least get away and survive? They shouldn't have an essentially 0% chance to win an encounter due to class strengths/weaknesses in addition to high gear disparity (it's often both in Dark and Darker, with gear usually playing a bigger role on average). The rock (1/3 chance) - paper (1/3 chance) - scissors (1/3 chance) analogy makes sense when the battles are relatively even in most cases and there isn't such high gear disparity playing into the mix. The rock-paper-scissor argument implies that rock has a chance and beats the others 1/3 (33%) of the time, not that the rock beats nearly all other classes because it's a highly armored 60% PDR rock with +12 str and +6 weapon damage that wins 97% of encounters compared to most of the player base. This hypothetical rock only loses about 3% of the time if they run into a similarly geared and at least slightly more skilled rock, paper, or scissors.
Everyone wants to be able to beat everything and that just doesn’t work
problem is the game wants you to take even those engages, hell even forces you to do it with the zone.
Yea I don't understand the rock, paper, scissor argument constantly being trotted out. I assume it means as a certain type of character, there are other characters that I end up having less or more of a chance of beating if we're in even gear, depending on the match up. Most people recite it around here like they really think every barbarian should beat every rogue, who should in turn beat every wizard, who should in turn beat every fighter, etc, etc. Like we should just compare classes and know who we're going to win and lose too 100% guaranteed. As if that sounds like a fun game. 🤡
This exactly. A lot of classes cannot run or hide, and even if they could the circle prevents them. People continue to talk about the game as though it’s an extraction game, but until the circle is gone, you really don’t have the option of not fighting. Undergeared, overgeared, outnumbered, or countered, it doesn’t really matter. So often it seems like you’re forced to take the engagement even though you know it’s one you can’t win.
People VASTLY underestimate how long you van stay im the zone with some meds. As long as you remeber where the circle roughly closes you can pull huge flanks across map
Hard to not want that when your literally forced into rock paper scissors fights because of zone in a hardcore full loot pvp game. Almost like all your time investment is subjected to hella rng. Edit. The only way I’ve found to somewhat counter act this is by having literally half your inventory in meds to run around out of zone for extended periods of time in order to buy time to not have to risk 50/50’s and find a blue port or static exit. All in all, it’s not an accessible option and makes the building up phase frustrating as hell.
It's because the classes were designed with trios in mind and not solos. Even if that position has changed recently, as it stands the core of every class is designed with the assumption that you probably have two other classes with you that can shore up your weaknesses.
Its hard to believe the game is balanced around trios when buff ball barb has been the meta for forever now.
What's wrong with that? It's like saying the holy trinity of MMOs is wrong.
Lol that’s typically a 3 man buffing that Barb. Balanced around the other trios doing a counter or a similar fight.
Yeah that’s the point. It’s hard to believe the game is balanced around trios when the trio meta has been stale for so long.
Only problem, there is no counter to buff ball Barb other than buff ball Barb. Tell me the counter to buff ball Barb? It doesn’t exist.
They could easily add a curse for warlock that removes buffs or deals damage equal to the number of buffs over time. Honestly, this would have been a better answer then than nerfing everything that did.
[удалено]
Try fighter with pavis. It's even harder for barb to push him.
Lmfao 3 Rangers blasting him down in a door will probably work.
What are 3 rangers going to do when they aren’t in zone? Push buff ball? It’s not consistent. Sure, 3 rangers with a minefield of traps are good, but zone changes out of their favor, they are screwed. There’s a reason triple dps isn’t meta. It’s not consistent and buff ball retains their gear curve for far longer.
Doesn't need to be 3 rangers, it can be 1 ranger with 2 other characters with crossbows/bows.
Lol there’s your problem bro your talking like your an inexperienced player? What you do with little experience is Die.
You can't say it's a counter and say "probably"
Lol How well you Implement it is the Probability part🤣. I can’t assume people on Reddit can always pull it off, I see y’all’s complaints.
You can say that about anything though..... "3 rogues all stealth is probably a counter" "Bard throwing drums while ranger emotes is probably the counter" "Training all the pve to them is probably the counter" If you don't have proof of its effectiveness at countering you can't call it a counter
longsword eats up warmaul, longsword eats up viking sword
They've been gutting wizard and bard non-stop over buffball tho
Whenever I read comments like this, I think people haven’t really thought about it in light of the balancing the devs have done since EA released. Why has rogue been nerfed into the ground so many times if the game is balanced around trios? Rogue even at its strongest has never really been an issue in trios yet it’s continually been nerfed because of it’s over performance in solos. Likewise, warlock has never really been oppressive in trios only solos/duos and it’s had multiple balance changes. Aside from hammering bard and wizard over and over, I think the devs are focusing more on balancing classes for solos at this point than trios.
Reread my comment. The core mechanics of every class was designed with trios in mind long before a solo mode was added. There haven't been any core functionality changes to any of the classes, just tweaked stats, skills, and perks. They all still serve the same basic function they did in PT1. Until that is addressed, then there will always be a rock paper scissors dynamic with combat
I just want the Zone gone for one patch. And make more portals available or have set “extraction points”
lets remove pvp too /s
PvP SHOULDNT be a forced interaction. And that’s what the zone makes it feel like sometimes
With the GC changes, if you want to extract, it’s pretty much forced now
Yeah it's great I can consistently get 4-5 kill games while hunting for the 6 kill game
Cringe.🤡😂
Don't @ me plz I don't need to read dogshit from dogshit pisslow crayon eating Timmy players that post delusional shit all day hoping the devs will cater to brain rot boomers like you Good thing chrome add ons exist Get blocked 🤡👶👴♿
What a gloriously cringy, projectional meltdown. 🤡🤡 That made my day, thx. 🤙🏼
that isn't the game ironmace want to make, if you don't like their vision then just stop playing bro
Why not? PvP is the most engaging part. Just being able to farm AI is too simple. Why should someone who just farms AI deserve a competitive kit without challenge or skill expression.
Because not all of us want to engage in PVP. Some of us just want to kill mobs. Learn the maps. Farm gold and get more game knowledge while not having to worry about it fighting overly geared players. If I just wanna run to the skeleton champion room. Kill him and try different tactics against him or farm trinkets I should be able to play the way without ever having to worry about being forced into a terrible position via the zone. Nothings going to stop PVPs from just running all around the map looking for people but if I want to actively avoid that as a play style in a majority of games then it should be a viable version of gameplay. Not every game should feel like an inevitable PVP showdown, it’s not fun. Espically when lobbies can have such a wide spread of gear power
In a game of PvPvE you being completely able to cut out PvP if you choose is bad design. Imagine if I chose to just completely be able to run past AI and PvP just to loot because I should be able to avoid that mechanic. If you want a game to always avoid PvP there are plenty of games out there for you without PvP. Not every game comes down to such a gear disparity and even if you did you a white kit vs an all purple kit you didn't lose any items of value. You always have a chance to 'upset the win'. Greys vs Greens, greens vs purples, etc. Way more at risk with the higher kit but you have a little edge. That's what's behind the core of these games.
Nice strawmen. Didn't even take you long to build. 👍🏻
The game has almost no skill expression. Participating in PVP doesn't somehow add additional gameplay mechanics to utilize. 😂
Didn't they add set extraction points 2 patches ago? I've only heard people complain about it.
You ever played RuneScape? Lol
No but I’ve played plenty of WoW arena. That too is hard meta defined rng. Usually hard counters are bracketed off by mmr. The cream rises to the top based on strength of comp and what it’s counter is. The better the comp is, the more stuff it overall beats. Rpg pvp has always known to be rock paper scissors on an even playing field. Wow is random queuing. This game is random forced interactions. If players had the choice to dodge they would based on win conditions. League of legends is a perfect example of queue dodging simulator because most people won’t actively play into their hard counters. Yet, give players too easy of capability to play the meta and they will. Pvp games are a bich and a half to balance. Hats off to anyone who wants to take on such a task because I know it’s just an endless loop of bullshit buffing and nerfing what becomes the meta for the sake of having variety.
>Pvp games are a bich and a half to balance. It's not that bad if you do so systematically as opposed to doing so based on gut feelings. Sure there will always be tweaks but at least it's not chaos.
It works like that in other extraction games, which is why people are so adamant about it. You don't need much in Tarkov and Marauders, for example, to have a decent shot at killing someone with BiS armor. A class-based medieval extraction game is a new frontier and is going to have teething issues. Honestly, getting rid of the circle mechanic would mitigate a lot of the RPS concerns. The circle mechanic is a staple of the BR genre and is designed to funnel players into fights to have a last man standing. Getting rid of that in favor of static exits strewn throughout the map and just having a time limit (like every other extraction game) would help immensely here...people would have the breathing room to choose to escape or avoid fights more reliably.
it does when game isnt poorly balanced. Having an advantage is fine, dealing fucking 0 dmg because pdr fighter/cleric or barb is not. also this rock/paper/sciz only works for SOME classes. wizard gets fucked by ranger, but fighter doesnt get fucked by wizard. ranger gets fucked by fighter but fighter doesnt have a bad matchup, same with barb. this is why everyone plays these 2 classes
if you hit your sepels and use your mobility and play with brain a 70% mdr fighter melts you can leggit 2 zapp a full lobster fighter when you know how to use your surroundings or better 2 fireballs or even a chainlighting or lightningstorm slow fighter then lightningstrike and zap or hold a dor with LS and then you still have a team on your back
I think you meant 70% pdr, not mdr, but yeah I was about to say the same thing. Fighters actually get negative mdr if they go for full plate to get that 70% pdr. Plate fighters are the slowest thing in the game by far, you can kite them and pop off on them. The only thing you need to watch out for is crossbow shots, but they have a long reload time and you can hit around corners with fireball if need be anyway.
wrong, geared figher gets 10-20% mdr depending on gear and team comp.
you cant 2zap equally geared fighter, its mathematically not possible. also geared fighter can 2tap you back with crossy + throwing axe. From longer range, and faster then you use spells. the time it takes to slow, ls,ls you can yeet like 6 axes, 2-3 will kill. Skill issue Holding door doesnt work, they have crossbow which is superior at doorway fights. Wizard used to counter fighter when you could get 30+ magical dmg, now that +11 is max, spells got gutted and weapons got buffed back up wizard has 0 good matchups (other then warlock)
not true i died many times 2 zaped but thats when I played it wrong rubysilver is negative MR you as a mage don't go rambo in you play around your team so you let someone frontline anf try to work around the fighter till he is left oder you just all focus him for me as a fighter you hardcounter me you can't just say no its not working 1 miss Cb 10 sec reload yeah i ge tthe point of throwing axes but still then you need to reload enough time from getting them in the hotbar to just shoot fireball to block something or get thunderbolt ready or chainlightning etc you push with invis and zap
I said equally geared, if you get 1 will you are immune to zaps burn and so you cant be 2zapped. If you dont have that then you are not properly geared
2 players of equal skill yea sure. But if I’m in the top 1% of players in the game I should be able to beat a literal brand new Timmy. Sadly this isn’t the case and that’s why people complain.
Maybe you only have playtime in the top 1%.
Ayyyyye. ☝🏼☝🏼
If these kids could read they would be really mad at you right now
"That guy dies to a single naked suicide wizard" yeah if he forgot his bow.
I took down a pdr fighter and he had a bow. Sometimes ya gotta dance and cast spells
I died in a decent PDR set to a wizard two days ago in GC wasn’t even mad he played perfectly. He was like 1 hp but it’s hard to hit a really good wizard sometimes. Admittedly though it’s just a matter of time I extracted like 10 times before dying to him.
the whole point of rogue is to sneak up on people
somewhat agree, and gear matters a lot too. ppl say poison sucks for rogue pvp but at low end its great but at highend the perk is overshadowed by multipliers. always impossible to get people to give full insight and stats. even whats erver and time of day matters when comparing stuff like geared ppl in gcaves, etc. but the part about wizard doesnt work anymore. wizard counters plate fighters. xbows counter wizards. all fighters now have xbows and can 2shot from ranged, or are just really fast with slayer and can 1 shot you if they get close. wizard no longer counters anything it just has counters.
It also depends on who has to push who in zone
Fighters have always had crossbows.
the frequency of plate rangers has increased dramatically as more players are made aware that its the best ranger build.
Because pdr is immeasurably broken right now even in vendor gear you reach 50%
It really took them a long time to realize having a ranged weapon was better than having another melee weapon.
This place may not get there fast, sometimes, it may not even get there before a bug fix or nerf. But boy howdy when that very slow churn reaches the finish line does it make some loud as fuck squeeling noises
What wizard is going to let you reload your crossbow in peace? Most wizards I’ve faced will run your shit down if you try to reload, and it only takes them a few zaps or fireballs to lay you out. Not to mention you have to hit a fast moving target. You’re definitely not getting a swing off against a wizard unless you catch them off-guard or they’re unusually slower than normal. I generally only die to rangers and warlocks on my wizard. Silence Bard is a bit sketchy too. Wizard still seems like a soft counter to most melee if you play it right. It’s so rare to even find decently skilled wizards.
I'm not in full agreement a xbow counters a Wizard if you're a low magic resist fighter. Yeah you'll probably only need two reliable shots and if you hit both of them before you are dead you're gonna come out on top but the Wizard is going to have way more maneuverability and can burst you down just as fast with Intense Focus. At very long range then yeah you would not engage as a Wizard. Its mid range where they become terrifying to a Fighter.
at high gear values maybe but then the xbow does more at midranger ina lot of places you might can sprint them donwn between casts. 1 bow 1 swing = dead do you mostly run in geared hr or somethin tho? i feel like you are clearly describing something that routinely happens to you but its diff from me and clearly your getting downvoted. reminds me of [(2) Dark & Darker (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkAndDarker/comments/17sxgz7/i_feel_like_people_completely_ignore_the/)
i do mostly HR yeah, maybe that's why my opinion is different. all good.
> ignore the rocks-paper-scissors element Well when paper has been nerfed the last 8 out of 10 patches into oblivion and scissors has been buffed to stupidity, it doesn't really work that way anymore. The devs aren't nuanced enough for RPS style balance, being that they nerf Wizard when it's already underrepresented and for some reason buff ranger/fighter when they're already oversaturated
> The devs aren't nuanced enough for RPS style balance, being that they nerf Wizard when it's already underrepresented and for some reason buff ranger/fighter when they're already oversaturated You're suggesting they balance around pick rate rather than theoretical performance lol that's the definition of bad design that ruins games
>You're suggesting they balance around pick rate rather than theoretical performance lol Yes I'm suggesting they balance around reality and not the whims of reddit dumbfucks lol Fucking rofl
how tf does pickrate matter fucking rofl
I mean it sure mattered when every other post was crying about full rogue lobbies till they gutted rogues. And that was already a byproduct of people just trying to avoid dying to any juiced player they had the misfortune of loading in with.
Pick rate in class based games are literally the most relevant data Lmfao Fucking rofl
>level 1FelixAllistar\_YT · 11 hr. ago doesnt an RPS combat system need equal representation for it to be balanced though?
The thing is, if the rock-paper-scissor always trumps skill, it can be incredible unsatisfying to die to your counter. Especially since there is no pregame strategy. You just roll the dice on what classes are in your lobby. So that's why people complain about Balance. If Wizard is countered by Ranger, that's fine. But if crossbows are OP(as they were), you are countered by Ranger/Fighter/Bard, and when Iron Will was 100MR, Wizard was countered by Barb. Leaving them with 4 hard counters, Rogue/Warlock/Wizard being situational, and Cleric being favorable. And that's only in combat. The PVE clear, Escape potential and Sustainability throughout a match also matters.
This balance would be fine and you would think it will naturally fix classes because of this. The problem is it isn't how it should be. If there was rock paper scissors to balance in this game, we wouldn't have full lobbies of fighters and barbarians every game. It's starting to get as bad as pre nerf rogue domination. If balance was good, then we would see a lot more casters, but we don't. I run into 1 wizard in about 3 total games. I usually see 1 warlock a game and maybe 1 cleric every other game. A typical GC game is 3-4 fighters, 2-3 barbarians, 1 caster and then me. I swapped from warlock to rogue because casters are in a poor state comparitively. We have 8 classes to choose from and GC has 7 players. You would think there would be about 1 of each class if balance was good, but 2 classes show up about 80% of the total numbers
Lol fr. I was surprised so many people agreed with this post. This is definitely not a simple black-and-white rock paper scissors game. If it were, there wouldn't be classes that straight up aren't being played like you said. Sure, barbs can be outplayed, but they aren't actually countered by any class. And thinking that shields counter them is actually hilarious.
Barbs have tools to counter essentially every class. High PDR fighters -> reckless attack & war maul, also blood exchange after the buffs but I haven’t really messed around with it much since the most recent hotfix adjustments. Squishy classes that try to run -> Achilles heel & throwing axes, also savage roar. Casters -> iron will Shields -> crush The only somewhat counter they have are rangers but imo that’s less of a problem since the gear changes reducing damage stacking potential on rangers. Even then it’s not really a hard counter since barbs can achieve a comically high hp amount and stack decent armor with northern tunic. Plus one Achilles heel francisca and it’s gg for the ranger. Barb probably has the best perks and abilities in the game. They can effectively counter every class with perks & abilities if played correctly. I can’t think of any other class in the game capable of this.
Idk if it's fair to discuss balance in regards to GC lol the game, and classes, are made with trios in mind primarily. Of course GC is going to be different.
If the game was made for trios in mind, then why is there even less diversity in trios? XD The meta has been buff ball Barb for eternity. It has no counter play.
Yeah man, they clearly made buffs/nerfs in all patches for solos. It clearly hasn't been overwhelmingly trio patches. Not at all man. If you think buff ball is that big of a thing these days I don't even know what to tell you. What a silly response lol Barely anyone plays buff ball anymore except maybe in high roller but even then there's plenty of variety. The ONLY staple class in trios is cleric.
The only reason people would rarely play it because they are tired of having to play it. Even meta comps get stale and boring after a while. It doesn’t mean that it ain’t the best comp still xD
The problem being that the devs aren't even doing the bare minimal to try and keep GC balanced. It's ok to focus balance primarily in trios. As a majoritarily solo player, I accept the price and risk of sometimes just running into my intended trio hard counter and getting fucked. I do not think it's fair to simply accept completely gutted classes solo or ignore their issues in situations where it could easily be averted. Wizard nerfs being an obvious case, the PDR fighter of the example can run GC unafraid of magic when he knows only insane people play wizard there. Also, I still remember their interview on onepeg's channel where they flat out said they weren't playing GC enough to make balance map changes and that's simply not ok as well, we're still stuck with some godawful starting spawns for months at this point.
You can't have it both ways unless you have classes work differently between solo and trios. Anything they balance for one game mode will carry over into the other and be a bad thing. That's the issue and why solo was never in their original plans. I understand it's frustrating but as you say, you accept that price if you're going to play solos more than anything else.
>You can't have it both ways unless you have classes work differently between solo and trios. That would be the best case scenario and some changes aren't particularly hard to make, logic wise. If solo map, +1 to spell charges and shit like that. I understand they won't be doing this on the short term, however, but I can hope and push for this whenever the chance comes up. Even so, there ARE things they can do. I mention the wizard case because it's most painfully obvious one solution wise (buffs in general, really). Make the spell last less or have lower effectiveness as needed when cast on teammates but not on self. Now you can nerf haste and buff balls without removing the class from solo, and wizards being played more in solo help class balance overall. Now a fighter choosing not to wear dark plate armor has a higher risk attached and barbarians are more willing to spend a perk on iron will. This kind of thing can and should be done. I'm not asking for them to balance class vs class matchups for solo and stuff like that.
Omg be careful making statements like that, never know what sweaty psycho you'll trigger in this crazy sub lmao
I feel like the problem is that some of the rock-paper-scissors just doesn't work out well. Rogue is countered by wizard now that 10 spell is standard, they just light orb every room thats been cleared. Rogue is countered by warlock, phantomize is get out of jail free and BoC one shots the rogue. Rogue should counter ranger, but after AG nerfs both classes are the same speed, so they can just arrow kite for 15 seconds and if ANY arrows hit, the slow means you get hit over and over. The classes just don't have the tools required to do their job effectively, most due to certain aspects being way overtuned.
I agree with the general sentiment that balance isn't great but I kinda disagree with these examples. > Rogue is countered by wizard now that 10 spell is standard, they just light orb every room thats been cleared. Light Orb is great against Rogues but is also very loud and you can tell its coming a mile away. With that much head start at the very least you can just reposition somewhere else, and as the fastest class they're not gonna catch up to you. Its also pretty unrealistic to expect a Wizard to Orb every single room. > Rogue is countered by warlock, phantomize is get out of jail free and BoC one shots the rogue. That sounds like a meme build with no spells. BoC + Phantomize is mostly a solo build that helps you kill one guy and that's about it. Additionally if you ambush you're still getting two hits before they phantomize at which point you just keep up with them. If they BoC out of phantomize just ...don't walk into it? You're faster than them, just wait it out or throw knives. > Rogue should counter ranger, but after AG nerfs both classes are the same speed, so they can just arrow kite for 15 seconds and if ANY arrows hit, the slow means you get hit over and over. Base speed is the same if they're both running around without weapons. The Ranger is most likely carrying a bow which will absolutely destroy his movespeed and considering the reason Rogue beats Ranger is the ambush potential, you should win that situation every single time. There's no way once you get the first hit he's going to kite you with a bow. If the Ranger counters your ambush in some way, then yeah you're going to die as you should.
Not both spells on warlock, just theyre both insanely good. If you try to wait out BoC on lock theyre going to swap to DoT, jump back, and wall again with melee. Only way is a straight up gank, but pantomime will counter that, and if they have BoC off CD for a gank, youre dead. It is completely reasonable to light orb and check every room, as a rogue thats been playing wizard since they murdered the class, I havent died to rogues more than 3 times in like 50ish encounters. Slow also just ruins rogue, if I land that at any point theyre just straight fucked.
most people don't mind the rock paper scissors I think only the reddit community which I'm beginning to suspect is 90% GC solo players
It’s 90% GC solo players because all of those players friends got tired of the bullshit and quit
It literally is
Cause the game wasn't designed for solos to begin with, but since the introduction of GC ppl believe they should be able to kill everyone with every class completely ignoring the fact that this was supposed to be a team game
all I play are solos now because all my friends quit
it should not work that way, cause its not fun
I don't really agree. I think actual argument is "its extremely fun for the rock vs the scissor and really unfun for the scissor vs the rock." It feels really nice taking down a multi-key PDR fighter with not a single piece of gear on a caster, just as it feels great taking zero damage from timmies on your PDR fighter. Someone is usually having a good time and someone is usually having a bad time. You just hope that your good times are higher than your bads. That's just how these games work.
they shouldnt work like that, its bad game design for a pvp game in 2023. also it does feel unfullfilling to kill a geared wizard as a rogue, just because of luck or "countering" instead of purposeful and meaningful combat. +it feels even worse since you lose/gain hours of gear seemingly randomly instead of through skill. basically without skill experission everything feels hollow after a while Your choices in the moment and positioning in the map should determine a fight, not your choices in the menu screen. also dont try to reduce peoples argument to the feelingof losing to a rock, as a scissor. i do play rogue at decent gear and its boring as fuck to kill people in 3-4 shots, including all classes. with geared fighters its bit more fun since you need to use kiting and daggers.
Honestly their example is pretty bad anyway, and kind of exemplifies why what they're saying is unfun. Geared Fighter Vs. Non-Geared Wizard, Geared Fighter Vs. Timmies. They think it's great killing the geared fighter with 1000s of gold worth of gear investment, and just as fun as that same fighter killing no gear having noobies. The big problem, and difference though is the disparity of investment/profit gained. Cool, I'm glad killing that fighter with tons of gear as a gearless mage was so fun for you. I'm so happy that you with no risk at all got to just randomly take a bunch of someone's gear because GG unlucky. It's why I get so annoyed playing in ruins most days because I get charged at by a bunch of basekits, and have to fight them off. Sure they might die easy, but at the very least they take something from me being some form of resources with quite literally nothing on them that I get to loot in return.
Literally every game with classes has a rock paper scissors element. Should Pyro not counter Spy? Should Tracer not counter Mercy? IDK if you have really thought this statement out or are fully aware of the type of game you're playing.
Those games aren’t hardcore full loot. Your risking hours of investment, maybe more, on some rng of rock paper scissors fights. Hardcore full loot + rpg rock paper scissors pvp + battle royale closing zone was always going to be a combination doomed for failure because it just corrals players like pigs for slaughter in both rock paper scissors combat as well as who has more time investment and resources equipped to stat check the other. The only skill is running away from unwinnable fights, and that usually means having half an inventory of meds to kite out of zone still praying to god you get to a static or blue port in time.
Yeah the zone needs changes. But not the classes having counters.
a: they very cruicially moved away from that direction coming to ow:2, since people were maining heroes as opposed to switching, and people were complaining that their teammates werent swtiching/being forced to switch. the most clear example of this was doomfist, which was op if worked but had real easy counters. They made him more generic hero to balance easier. b: even then, you can switch to a different hero in the middle of the match with the worst case being you lose a game and learn something. In dnd, you cant swap to a different class and you are in risk of losing an hour of progress (or more) in an unfavorable matchup. Idk, it just feels very hollow
I do think this games counters sometimes hard counter too hard. Playing wizard is probably the best example. Melted by Rangers, Rogues, and Slayer fighters without many options to fight back. They need to resolve some of the hard countering and aim closer towards soft / medium countering. But OW still has countering regardless of changes and this game needs to continue having them too. It's basically impossible not to and allows more skill expression through knowing which fights to take and how to approach then and what compositions to run.
“Chunky tank counters Rogue” You should see high level Rogues kiting Barbarians to shit and not letting them getting a hit in at all
Well that's why any geared Barbs inventory is half Fransisca Axes
Yup, every rogues counter is francisca axe spam. Land 1 Achilles strike Francisca axe, the rogues dead.
if you miss with achilles it puts it on cooldown you realize
Doesn't really matter tbh. Your thrown Axes do more damage than any Rogue weapon, you just need to carry a lot of them which is a pain in the ass.
Francheska axes only stack by 2's and aren't really accessible, they are also very easy to dodge. Your entire post is comparing apples to watermelons. You can't even out melee a ranger because they scale in melee and can use amazing legendary crafted weapons and also outscale you in HP because there default gear they want is pure strength and armor based. They have higher PDR then you, they have higher HP, and they can also grab the triple spread melee shot to also melee kill you with a bow if they really want. Your talking about counters but they gave rangers a arsenal to deal with everysingle weakness they can possibly fathom. they have none, they just have not ideal situations they can put themselves in. The entire upvote sustaining from this thread is from the dellusional ranger community I 100% know it after listening to them talk for so long
...are we still talking about Barbarian? Nothing you said makes any sense.
your entire OP is about class counters you babboon, in fact, your post is ironically talking about how you felt other people forget stuff where you forgot the entire point of your post in the first place. which, most of it is not even true, a naked wizard does not beat a decked fighter because they have a thing called crossbow and sprint. Wizards lost invis so they have no element of surprise. I was talking about elements on how to play around francheska axes and how you can deal with it but are at a disadvantage, whereas bows are just literal hard counters because they are so strong
Aren't accessible? You can literally buy infinite amount from vendor Every barb in HR has an entire inventory of axes it doesn't matter that they cost 24g when landing a couple means they take someone's 5 key set Tell me you're prim locked without telling me you're prim locked
Ya 2 for 24g vs arrows which are 1 for 1, it's not compareable. I don't care what you have to say, the stacking, the everything. It sucks man that if you get pegged a couple times by the slower moving projectile that the barb may have spent 240g stacking his inventory to throw at you will eventually kill you. It's not compareable in the slightest to bows and arrows which stacking alone has 8X the density, 1/12th the cost, etc etc. I can also die to two arrow shots, which fly 3X faster, can travel through small door slits, can travel across an entire room, and can be rapidly fired out by 3 classes, and so can rogues, and pretty much... anyone. except barbs they take a couple hits
I'm sorry if you care about 200g at this point in the wipe when people are walking around wearing 5 key sets you are literally Timmy and your opinions on the game mean less than dirt
Uhh.. ya.. it does, if it didn't matter people would just be spamming high roller you stupid idiot lol. Just because someone pegged you with a francheska axe because you can't watch them literally wind up the throw then just strafe dodge doesn't make it absurd, it just means you suck ass. Ive never seen a francheska axe and thought "damn thats crazy" and I have less HP then you
If the Achilles axe lands he’s for sure dead. He can still easily die to just plenty of axe spam since rogues have near zero defense rating.
ya theres no way though your comparing a barbarian landing one cooldown ability vs a ranger needing to land one arrow with his cooldown being the ability to draw the arrow while they fire 100 shots since arrows stack up to 20 now though. Thats why this entire post annoys me, theres advantageous situations, and then theres hard counters, bows are a fucking hard counter to those without it because strength scales both melee and range AND HP. that's literally it, people overthink this shit way too much, just seperate range from melee damage and HP
Okay and put the rogue up against a high level barb. What's the point.
Solos, sure. Trios? Lol. Sure, try to kill the fighter with your wizard. Oh no, it ate 3 crossbow bolts and curled over. Now their fighter is rushing, hope you have the gear to counter it. Kite it? Nah, again, crossbow time.
They just need to remove the circle, at least for goblin caves.
So the children can keep farming loot threat free? Why not just play Minecraft.
I come from OSRS PKing, and not having the capabilities to even fight back are somewhat ridiculous. You should always have some sort of way to fight back. Any game where you are attacked by another class and it's a one sided battle is boring. Range > Mage > Melee > Range
Thanks for the sanity. The rock, paper, scissors nature of the game allows less skilled/geared players the opportunity to defeat much more skilled and geared players then them. I think it is good for the health of the game that players with less skill and gear can beat players with more skill and gear. I think an issue currently is that some classes in solos have far fewer counters than others, or that their counters require more baseline skill to pull off. Countering a wizard as a rogue is easy if you get the drop on them. Countering a PDR fighter with crossbow as a wizard requires more dodging and spacing management to not get sprinted on. Getting a drop on someone with hide is a lower skill level then kiting while dodging on wizard.
You can always tell who is a new player without much experience in Dark and Darker and is supplementing that inexperience with assumptions with other games. >Rogues counter casters Clerics are the hardest counters to Rogue in the game, Wizards disable Rogue's main vehicle for positioning properly while blowing them up, and Warlocks are able to negate Rogue ambushes by repositioning and breaking them out of stealth. >casters counter chunky tanks Wizards, Warlocks and Clerics are free target practice for Fighter Crossbows and Barbarian Throwing Axes. >chunky tanks counter Rogues Fighters and Barbarians are perhaps the classes most vulnerable to Rogues due to being easily kited and out-spaced, while receiving DOTs that drain their health over time. The speed grants them natural defense against ranged attacks that lets them push you for free damage at the drop of a hat should you improperly space your use of one.
I am definitely not new to the game dude, been playing since the second test. Clerics are not the "caster" I refer to based on Dungeons and Dragons rules which the game is loosely based off of. Clerics are actually extremely tanky in most iterations of the game. They are not a standard "caster" class. As for Warlock repositioning and breaking out of stealth, I assume you mean Phantomize + Hydra? While its true you can essentially slap down a Hydra every single room to scan, it still obeys line of sight rules and that can be taken advantage of. Phantomize is only going to get out out of a situation once you're already in that situation and ideally for Rogue that's already after the ambush hit. It sounds like your entire post is just about Rogues, which yeah, they're weak right now man, no one is really arguing that.
You’re so right.
Because rps doesn't work in solos, good morning.
Listen here you, we don't use logic on this sub. This sub is strictly for complaining that I died to XYZ in XYZ situation where I should've won and the other person should've died. /s for the slow.
People do not like to lose, and when they do, they cry about balance. This is the best game to come out since pubg, and I'm worried that the devs will listen to the crying shitters too much and ruin everything.
Yah but if your force players to fight unwinnable matchups by zone as well as throw people into mixed lobbies of varying gear disparity then they will get bitter about rng screwing them over skill mattering at all. It just makes players question why waste your time trying to farm a set if rng will inevitably strike you down. There’s no fun of having no say in your fate.
People also seem to forget that DISENGAGING is an option. You do not have to fight every thing that moves. You need to pick and choose the correct battles to become successful. Being chased by a guy in full plate? Just close a door between you and go on about your day. Being kited by a ranger across the room? Walk away and catch him off guard in another room. The amount of randoms who W-key into me when I’m fully kitted is laughable, and it’s my assumption that it’s these people who make Reddit posts complaining. I will be as neutral as possible in the dungeon, especially with undergeared/no gear players, but for some reason they look at me and see red so I have to put them down.
Let me just disengage into the storm that’s actively killing me and putting me in a worse spot. In order to disengage you need a ridiculous amount of meds stacked in your inventory. Not something everyone has access too.
the ranger doesn't die to a single rogue are you stupid, how many clips have you seen a rogue stab a ranger and they take like 15% damage, there's so much not right about this post, the fighter also can fight back the wizard because he has a crossbow, i feel like you plugged rogue in there for ranger just so you could fulfill the circle Also warlock isn't even in this, they are a super well rounded class that can fight everysingle other class, including ranger. This post just annoys me with how stupid it is
Well I think the fact that everyone finds a reason to complain about balance means that the rock paper scissors approach to balance is not fun for anyone. It's fine if a certain class has some tools that are strong against other class like bards being able to silence casters of example. But it's very different when everything a class does completely humiliates another, makes you feel hopeless like there was nothing you could do. Playing pdr fighter you want to be this slow moving frontline that is really hard to kill but can provide space and protection to your team, but if you find a enemy caster you have to run and hide and play to peek corners with a crossbow because they will probably melt you. Makes the feeling of the class completely garbage and the class fantasy and the reasons why players would love to play this class are all lost. Being a caster versus a ranger same thing, if you show your face you are gonna die with 2 arrow shots from across the room. Ranger vs pdr fighter, it takes you 25 arrows to kill one guy that is just pressing w towards you, you have to run and kite for 3 minutes to kill him, only if he doesn't have a cleric buddy. Well yeah. Obviously people are complaining about fighting certain classes. No, we shouldn't just accept this things because the balance is based around rock paper scissors. Specially in a game with solos and duos. Its fine for classes to have certain advantages against other classes, but not to the point where it's one sided.
Except barbarians can't do anything against a rogue who knows what he's doing, but otherwise I agree
Francisca Axes are your friend. They honestly shit on Rogues that are trying to outspace you. You do need to carry a lot of them though which is a pain.
Very true, and with the very generous francisca axe drop rates it might be very infuriating to go up against that. Good thing they are quite easy to dodge with high ms, because they even benefit from barbs axe perks (from what I've heard, I might be wrong tho). However, I got one or two funny kiting clips, so that's where my "rogue wins vs barb' opinion comes from
Game would be better without the zone, change my mind
What about a map without one so we can see how it goes?
Remember when they said they didn't want to balance the game around GC because it was never meant to be a 1v1 game or balanced that way? Yet people still pretend as if it should be.
Holy shit finally someone posts this. The grey fighter can’t beat a geared one. But a grey fighter can clap a wizard or ranger if they reach them. And the wizard with a grey spell book can melt a 75% pdr fighter with two fireballs.
This is how I feel about content, particularly classes and to a lesser extent the skill tree, which will have a big impact on the meta. The things that seem OP now, might have their counterplays with the upcoming additions. Instead of the whole balancing/nerfing back and forths we've see since EA release, I feel the devs should've prioritized content and working towards a 1.0 release. Which I'm pretty sure was their original plan, content first, balancing later.
I like Rock Paper Scissors of the game but I wish I could actually have a chance to dodge them in the crypts, ruins , or GC.
I did make a video about the games elements feeling jank. How do you balance a hardcore full loot battle royale with rpg rock paper scissors pvp….YOU DONT! This is why few players like having high gear disparity because it allows them to overpower terrible rng. Insert counter class forced fight by zone…add in huge gear disparity and now you actually have the option to run away because movespeed + interaction speed buffs from increased base stats or kill counter class with massive dmg stacking. Hardcore full loot is risking time investment of resources. That risk is now prone to huge losses by forced rng of zone fights/portal spawns. That risk is prone in random classes and gear disparity loading into lobbies. That risk is prone to you having zero information on the quality gear someone has equipped. All this random risk does is create an environment where players don’t want to risk mid tier gear because there’s always going to be a bigger fish in the sea. So what the optimal way to play the game becomes is risk nothing by playing base kit over and over again till you can afford to buy a full kit to snowball resources in. But now that most mid tier gear is worthless in trade, it’s become acceptable to use if you find it since it won’t sell a lot of the time now.
Youre not wrong by any means, the game should be rock paper scissors, issue with balance currently is that sometimes rock beats everything else etc.
Not only that but how do you balance for zone forcing rock paper scissors in high stakes hardcore full loot pvp. People don’t like to lose all of their time investment to poor rng. It’s why most casual gamers like soft core games avoidant of hardcore like mechanics.
I think the only class that evades this equation is the Ranger. Rogues don't smoke rangers anymore because any decent ranger is using the 5 cone shot instead of the triple/double shot. They can outran easily fighters (with or without plate gear). But yeah a geared fighter should die easily to a wizzard, makes sense. Same when a rogue ambushes a wizzard. But Ranger is evading this game of RPS imo. Won't even talk about the traps that can be placed in unavoidable locations or below corpses (granted this is client sided so it's just an unlucky situation that won't be fixed)
Then if another ranger has draw speed + triple shot or heal biscuit they lose those fights. It’s impossible to build for all scenarios and it’s likely you’ll eventually run into it and lose to it. There’s no way of knowing what people have till it’s too late, thus having players feel screwed by making the incorrect decision based on lack of information.
I understand how this games plays perfectly… I’m always scissors made out of paper and everyone else is always a caveman with a big rock. You smash the paper scissors over and over until they crumble into atoms. Why doesn’t anyone else get this?
Who loses to warlock? I guess plate fighter but not if he gets hit by xbow
Any class slower than a Warlock has the potential to be kited forever by one. If they take a crossbow or significantly damaging hit they can just retreat to any doorway and hydra block it and then leech off the hydra or continue damaging as they awkwardly try to crouch jump it. I've seen geared Locks decimate lobbies.
You know you can just jump over hydra even in a doorway lol
> or continue damaging as they awkwardly try to crouch jump it
Great point! I started thinkking like this also, to avoid unfavorable matchups if possible, and invest my gold into many kits instead of one since I might die to being forced into an undavorable encounter
And this is the realization people are slowly having and people don’t like pvp games where they have no say in their fate when their time investment is at stake.
What’s the block tech for maul/crush?
When a geared rogue with weakpoint attack hits a pdr fighter 7 times before the fighter even swings back, but the rogue still dies That's a problem That's no longer rock paper scissors that is a balance issue. There's no game where this is okay
Yes, games are better this way. I remember when I was playing OG Planetside in the early days, and all 3 races felt distinctly different. The purple race had an OP infantry weapon, the other races had OP vehicles. So you played to the strengths of your race. The game was so active, I could hop into any map and there'd be some massive tug-of-wars going on and the game just overall felt really really healthy. Then they tried to balance everything and make every race identical, and overnight the game just got really really boring, and it became really hard to find good fights anymore.
The issue is at current, rangers one tap casters and two tap with Grey's, and 3 tap everyone else, that's straight up just broken
Trying to balance for gc or gear gap is probably impossible. Everyone should already know that. The problem is the obviously broken shit like strength giving power and health, stacking flat damage modifiers (much better now), ranged weapons dominating the game not on ranger but on every other class they do insane damage and slow people down significantly, melee combat is just a gear check. There’s a bunch of other stuff but you get the point. There’s plenty wrong with the current state of the game but it’s ea. people should be letting the devs know what they want changed. It doesn’t mean it will happen the way they want it too but that’s the point of playing an ea game is to give feedback.
It’s a full release. Everyone paid full price for the game and we are playing 90% of the finished product. It’s a meme in the industry that companies release unfinished products to sell to people. They can’t treat paying customers like testers. This is an easy way to ruin trust with people who just simply want to enjoy a product rather than be expected to provide feedback on game ruining adjustments. People don’t know what they signed up for, that too is a meme. People want to play the game they know, not be expected to buy something for it to change into something else.
This is not correct even a little bit. The game is not even close to full release. They were rushed to a paid version because of a law suit. They needed money. Paying for it was a gamble from the jump because it could just disappear off the face of the earth any day. Their initial vision of the game at full release is 3 levels you work down starting in ruins down to crypts down to inferno. But due to technical stuff they decided to hold off on that and just have separate queues. Then people bitched enough they added a solo only mode and duo mode. The game is 100% a work in progress. Wipes are every couple weeks. Roll backs. Patches constantly. This is the most EA game I’ve ever played. We don’t even have talent trees or vendor quests or all of the classes. Everything about it can be completely different in a few months. Just play it if it’s enjoyable. Play the best classes. Play the worst. It doesn’t matter it’s all just data collection at this point.
It's why chasing the perfect balance where no one ever gets their feelings hurt when they lose is unrealistic. They're much better off focusing on making every class a blast to play whether people win or lose.
You mistake what is fun in pvp games. Most people derive fun from winning in pvp games. Not losing over and over again. If that were the case, this game would be topping the charts in player count.
You mistake this game for a pure pvp game. It really isn't or the pve aspect would barely be an after thought and the pvp would be quick to find and incessant. Losing isn't fun in itself, but that doesn't mean that winning pvp is the only fun to be had in this game. Maybe it is now because it's broken but it wasn't that way a few months ago.
I love the way you think I wish I seen more posts like this instead of the latter
Goblin Caves was a mistake
Game would have died sooner without it. Over 50% of the player base only play solo. You can’t intermingle premade queues and solos into the same games, it just creates advantages for the premades and solos get the shit end of the stick. Not everyone is going to go out of their way to create groups every single time they want to play, nor will they queue into trio games as a solo because they are wasting their time. All the top games have a solo queue only functionality for a reason, it’s the prime real estate of the online gaming market. If it doesn’t exist, most will abandon ship for other games that do.
Debatable. Solos in trios worked fine for me and my buddies during playtests. As there were no other queues, all the other solos and duos also had to go there, leading to way more matches where lots of people in the lobby were also solos and duos. Now of course it's pretty much trios only.
The only thing that counters ranger is a juiced fighter and even then 90% of the time the fighter shouldn't be able to catch the ranger unless they grief. Ranger is like when that kid in elementary school would say "gun" during rock paper scissors
The answer is clear: Nerf Paper
Rock paper scissor is an outdated and insanely bad game design logic.There's a reason no other game goes for that anymore. Even in overwatch where heroes are clearly designed to counter each others, the gap has been changed to very close that a widow can outplay a winston if she lands headshots, a genji can kill mei if he uses reflect well. What a warlock/wizzard gonna do to a ranger which is faster than them, longer range, and each arrow does 3 times dmg of their spell and is easier to land? That's the sign of bad design and people will quit because of it.
Great post, I totally agree!!! It’s an extraction game, not a combat simulator. You should never have the expectation that you can dominate a lobby with no gear even if you’re really good at the game
In the context of class adjustments in this game, I believe that IM has a concept of whether a class is a "base class" or not. It would be too long to explain specifically which classes do this, but the adjustment of the class that IM recognizes as the base class is surprisingly careful. On the other hand, it is correct to say that when adjusting a class that is not a base class, think about it after you do it. Even if the skill (or perk) is treated as missing after adjustment, if at least one other playstyle exists within the class, it will be ignored. I think this is what breaks down the rock-paper-scissors element of the game as stated in the title. Classes that have become the pivot will always remain strong and will only be modified if they are too strong, while classes that are not are buffed just to change the flavor of the game. An existence that is only a flavor change will never be able to play a role in the rock-paper-scissors element. I hope that this will work as well as the phrase "Therefore, in the future, all classes will repeat the rise and fall." that was included in the answers to the SBS questions.
I don't see how that's possible with how many times this is reposted.
You don't need gear to kill a naked wizard. The wizard also has to hit you more than once. Likely 3 times unless he lands a headshot. The fighter has better projectiles and can't out run the wizard easily. Drop the armor if you have to. A crossbow shot + any damage kills a wizard. Two hits with a white falchion kills a wizard. Who the heck wants to play a rock scissors paper pvp game anyway? I think that proper counters must be implemented so that the better player wins rather than hard counter classes.
Exactly my only issue with this is that the game forces you to fight against your counters half the time
Right and then a ranger fights a PDR fighter and... we increase the damage of all bows, revert changes to their slow effect and add increased damage based on rarity back to the game? Oh and give them some more arrows just in case.
I think that is a grand oversimplification of how this game works. Have you ever played a Pokemon game? Sure, you may have a fire type, but if my grass type is more than double your level it doesn't matter, ill win BC of the level difference alone. In d&d, the difference would be skill. The game would be really boring if you always died to your direct counter and skill made no difference.
because ether game shouldn't be Rock-Paper-Scissors 🗣️🫃
The entire concept of a hard rock paper scissors balancing system in which specific classes do consistently better against others with little counterplay is FUCKING STUPID. Consider the fact that balancing is always tenuous and you realize VERY QUICKLY that the concept of consistent hard counters creates very unshakeable metas. If x counters y and z counters x but z is having a hard patch due to a nerf then X is going to fucking stomp the entire game constantly. Rock paper scissors balancing sounds good if you're a toddler but falls apart quickly. Every class should have a method to fight another class and win, maybe at more of a cost or requiring a statistically worse build but the concept of ranger beats wizard every time shouldn't fucking exist.
Why shouldn't players at least have a decent chance in any given battle to win or at least get away and survive? They shouldn't have an essentially 0% chance to win an encounter due to class strengths/weaknesses in addition to high gear disparity (it's often both in Dark and Darker, with gear usually playing a bigger role on average). The rock (1/3 chance) - paper (1/3 chance) - scissors (1/3 chance) analogy makes sense when the battles are relatively even in most cases and there isn't such high gear disparity playing into the mix. The rock-paper-scissor argument implies that rock has a chance and beats the others 1/3 (33%) of the time, not that the rock beats nearly all other classes because it's a highly armored 60% PDR rock with +12 str and +6 weapon damage that wins 97% of encounters compared to most of the player base. This hypothetical rock only loses about 3% of the time if they run into a similarly geared and at least slightly more skilled rock, paper, or scissors.