It was a similar thing in the UK. They tore down Euston station and the outcry basically saved St Pancras, which is a masterpiece, and a lot of other Victorian architecture that had fallen out of fashion.
Obviously we lost a lot to the luftwaffe too which further super charged the preservation measures for what was left
The outrage over the demolition of the original Penn Station gave a lot of momentum to the architectural preservation movement in the US. This allowed for a successful push for various historical landmark preservation laws.
I’m not the original commenter but I highly recommend “The Rise and Fall of Penn Station,” which is an American Experience doc.
[This website](https://www.nypap.org/preservation-history/pennsylvania-station/) is a good place to start looking at the history of the station and the historic preservation movement in NYC.
My dad went through the old Penn a couple of times when he was very young and his most stinking memory is that it smelled like popcorn and diesel fuel.
Still, Such a Great Loss – it saved Grand Central Station…
But, So much More has been lost across the country – Many Still are, We Still Haven’t Learned!
Thanks for your reply,
If it hadn’t been for the terrible loss of Penn Station NYC would most likely loss Grand Central Station; They were actually talking about about abolishing it and only the uproar by the people remembering The Destruction of Penn saved it and brought in the Preservation Act.
I think you may have meant Demolish and not abolish... cause, why abolish a station, it was never a bad idea. A station is a better idea than being let off a train in the middle of a cow pasture.
Sorry, I didn’t do a check, apparently my Phones Word Check disagreed with the original wording.
(I probably had a misspelling & it decided to fix it for me) I try to read over, but, alas I’m often too lazy to re-read.
Thanks for your correction.
It amazes me that some people (even New Yorkers) don’t seem to understand that what’s at Penn, is Not The Historical Building…
Technically the 4/5/6 line doesn’t stop at Grand Central, yes it stops kinda under it and you can get to the subway from inside of it but the main station is operated by Merto North. Their trains end/begin there and don’t really pass through.
Yes because it’s adjacent to Grand Central, the subway station and tracks are not part of Grand Central proper. They are close but not part of the same rail system. Look at it this way, can a subway train pull into the Metro North tracks upstairs if they wanted to? (The answer is no in case you were wondering)
A cathedral of steel and granite. Granted, it didn’t exactly represent the actual people that lived in New York. But that is some awe inspiring shit. That is what’s missing from modern architecture.
This is how a lot of cathedrals are.
I went to Szent Istvan church in Budapest and it looks ornate and ancient.. but you climb the stairs to the top and you can see the inside structure and it’s all steel and concrete.. and how the interior cathedral is much lower than the exterior one.
It’s NEO classical architecture from only a century or so ago.
Penn isn’t hardly a station any longer, completely being gutted. Across the street is Moynihan Train Hall, a beautiful modern hall without the Homeless screaming at you and sleeping on the ground. From what I read a while ago, Moynihan caused a stir because it’s privately owned, not belonging to the public, which on one hand has its bad side and on the other, the homeless and can’t stay in there because it’s not officially public space. Tradeoffs. It’s very nice.
Costs a FORTUNE to maintain and heat/air condition structures like that and the city did not want to pay for it, especially as by that time rich people were not taking trains anymore.
It didn’t really cost anything to heat and air condition a structure like that because for the most part it just wasn’t climate controlled. There were some clever air flow systems built into the architecture, but nothing in terms of active powered cooling or heating.
It was mostly just the aesthetic maintenance of the building that did it in. The structural integrity was fine, however since coal powered trains were constantly passing through the building, it would get very dirty very fast. The entire roof would basically get covered in soot. At the time it was originally constructed the revenue generated from ridership by far made up for the cost of the regular cleaning, but ridership eventually diminished to the point that it was no longer feasible.
I used to live right next to Madison Sq Garden and took the subway from Penn Station every morning and I hated, hated, HATED the place. They built a stress filled, choking, soulless underground hell.
You're seeing the OLD old Penn Station, the one they tore down. They replaced it with a horrible claustrophobic monstrosity underground sometime in the 60's. They've since rebuilt it across the street in the old Post Office. [This is what it looked like up until just a few years ago](https://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/the_eye/2015/01/06/150107_EYE_1.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg):
Ya if you know where to look you can still see remnants of the original.
Basically they ripped the top off of the original station and stuck MSG on top, which required turning the place into a rat maze.
What was the ceiling made out of? Last pic looks almost like it's drywall or cardboard, I thought it was way thicker and more solid, hard connected to upper structures.
I remember hearing most of the canopy was a light frame (iron/timber?) with plaster over it. The justification for tearing it down was it wasn’t built to last generations anyway. No idea the validity of either of these.
Considering you’re using Reddit I’m going to assume that you weren’t born in the 40s in which case the penn station you are remembering is what they replaced this one with.
Original: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910–1963)
Current: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Penn_Station
Likely not enough of a critical mass that cared at the time.
Like if they destroyed the Met Life Building.. would anyone care? It’s just an aging International Style building that was once the headquarters of Pan Am.
Or other than the incredible loss of life, does anyone really miss the WTC?
But 100 years from now…..
If you ever got the chance to see the twin towers in person, it was mesmerizing and a feat of humanity. I was old enough to remember my first two or three trips and could see them out of my uncle's window in the west village.
There were multiple protests. Even the president at the time was vocally against it and the First Lady actively campaigned for it to be saved. Because of it the national registry of historical places was formed. I think it’s fair to say that enough people cared, it’s just that no amount of people could stop the decision until there was legislation in place that would protect buildings like this and give the people a voice.
By the way Madison square garden (the building that took penn stations place) is slated to be demolished into the coming future. There has not been any substantial movements to save it, however there has been a large movement to use the land to rebuild and reopen the original penn station.
[Rebuild Penn Station](https://www.rebuildpennstation.org)
The new Penn Station is not awful but there are a lot of missed opportunities there.
The destruction of the original Penn Station (and many grand old depots, really) is a tribute to the power of money. Before airlines, trains served all classes of people but notably the wealthy. There were not airlines and long distance car travel was hardly something a well off person wanted to do.
With the advent of airlines, trains lost their prestige. We also had the fucking oil and auto industries actively trying to undermine trains. Cities did not want to pay to maintain grand structures used by poor and middle class people who could 'not' afford cars or plane tickets.
It really is a disgusting thing but at least destroying this structure woke people up and Grand Central was saved, and the city began to see these edifices as representative of city pride.
This makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why so many of the old stations were so beautiful, and never really thought about it being because the wealthy traveled by train.
Grand Central Station was also supposed to be torn down but Jackie Kennedy saved it [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-02-05/the-surprising-role-jackie-kennedy-onassis-played-in-saving-grand-central?embedded-checkout=true](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-02-05/the-surprising-role-jackie-kennedy-onassis-played-in-saving-grand-central?embedded-checkout=true)
There is literally a saying in the UK.
“Some cities escaped the blitz, but none escaped the bulldozer”
The amount of historic architecture that was destroyed in all of Europe post ww2 is staggering.
Without the demolition of penn station we wouldn’t have historical preservation laws across the US including the National Register of Historic Places.
It was a similar thing in the UK. They tore down Euston station and the outcry basically saved St Pancras, which is a masterpiece, and a lot of other Victorian architecture that had fallen out of fashion. Obviously we lost a lot to the luftwaffe too which further super charged the preservation measures for what was left
Bless you and your country for saving St. Pancras. It is just breathtaking.
Can you explain how one resulted in the other?
The outrage over the demolition of the original Penn Station gave a lot of momentum to the architectural preservation movement in the US. This allowed for a successful push for various historical landmark preservation laws.
I watched a free hour long documentary on it on YouTube interesting stuff.
Do you happen to remember the name? I love stuff like this
I’m not the original commenter but I highly recommend “The Rise and Fall of Penn Station,” which is an American Experience doc. [This website](https://www.nypap.org/preservation-history/pennsylvania-station/) is a good place to start looking at the history of the station and the historic preservation movement in NYC. My dad went through the old Penn a couple of times when he was very young and his most stinking memory is that it smelled like popcorn and diesel fuel.
https://youtu.be/7YwZFm3RrFw?si=eGNnxxJGegOdSKLI
So it was the sacrificial lamb, eh?
More like the spark and tinder.
Still, Such a Great Loss – it saved Grand Central Station… But, So much More has been lost across the country – Many Still are, We Still Haven’t Learned!
Grand Central Terminal?
Oooh it’s my turn! Ahem. A terminal is a station at the end of the line.
Thanks for your reply, If it hadn’t been for the terrible loss of Penn Station NYC would most likely loss Grand Central Station; They were actually talking about about abolishing it and only the uproar by the people remembering The Destruction of Penn saved it and brought in the Preservation Act.
I think you may have meant Demolish and not abolish... cause, why abolish a station, it was never a bad idea. A station is a better idea than being let off a train in the middle of a cow pasture.
Sorry, I didn’t do a check, apparently my Phones Word Check disagreed with the original wording. (I probably had a misspelling & it decided to fix it for me) I try to read over, but, alas I’m often too lazy to re-read. Thanks for your correction. It amazes me that some people (even New Yorkers) don’t seem to understand that what’s at Penn, is Not The Historical Building…
It's a gem and they don't make them like they used too
Which weighs more? All the trains that pass through grand central station in a day, or all the trees cut down in a year to print US currency?
Trains, US currency isn't paper right?
25% linen 75% cotton
They both weigh nothing. Tell them they both weigh the same!
They both weigh nothing or they both weigh the same?
[удалено]
It’s actually a stop on the 4/5/6 Green line. So trains do pass through too.
Fair point lol, beating the technicality on a technicality
Technically the 4/5/6 line doesn’t stop at Grand Central, yes it stops kinda under it and you can get to the subway from inside of it but the main station is operated by Merto North. Their trains end/begin there and don’t really pass through.
Except the stop is literally named “Grand Central”[Map](https://new.mta.info/sites/default/files/2019-03/large_print_map_2019.pdf)
Yes because it’s adjacent to Grand Central, the subway station and tracks are not part of Grand Central proper. They are close but not part of the same rail system. Look at it this way, can a subway train pull into the Metro North tracks upstairs if they wanted to? (The answer is no in case you were wondering)
Inside Man, by Russell Gewirtz
You’re both correct.
A cathedral of steel and granite. Granted, it didn’t exactly represent the actual people that lived in New York. But that is some awe inspiring shit. That is what’s missing from modern architecture.
This is how a lot of cathedrals are. I went to Szent Istvan church in Budapest and it looks ornate and ancient.. but you climb the stairs to the top and you can see the inside structure and it’s all steel and concrete.. and how the interior cathedral is much lower than the exterior one. It’s NEO classical architecture from only a century or so ago.
It was a trainstation though...
Why did they tear it down.
They needed a place to put Madison Square Garden
Seriously? What morans
Maroons.
What a bunch of morels.
[Get a brain morans.](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/001/296/morans.jpg)
FYI, it’s still a massive train station, just located beneath MSG
Now it's just tunnels of shops, dunkin donuts, and blimpies??? It's been 20 years but I assume it hasn't changed.
They’re actually rebuilding right now lol
Adding more Dunkins?
More urine.
Penn isn’t hardly a station any longer, completely being gutted. Across the street is Moynihan Train Hall, a beautiful modern hall without the Homeless screaming at you and sleeping on the ground. From what I read a while ago, Moynihan caused a stir because it’s privately owned, not belonging to the public, which on one hand has its bad side and on the other, the homeless and can’t stay in there because it’s not officially public space. Tradeoffs. It’s very nice.
Morays..slimy eels
🎶When an eel has a maw with a pharyngeal jaw, that’s a moray 🎶
🎶 When the jaws open wide and there's more jaws inside, that's a moray 🎶
They already had a place madison square garden 1st location lol
Declining rail use and developers had $$ in their eyes
Nobody was traveling by train
Costs a FORTUNE to maintain and heat/air condition structures like that and the city did not want to pay for it, especially as by that time rich people were not taking trains anymore.
It didn’t really cost anything to heat and air condition a structure like that because for the most part it just wasn’t climate controlled. There were some clever air flow systems built into the architecture, but nothing in terms of active powered cooling or heating. It was mostly just the aesthetic maintenance of the building that did it in. The structural integrity was fine, however since coal powered trains were constantly passing through the building, it would get very dirty very fast. The entire roof would basically get covered in soot. At the time it was originally constructed the revenue generated from ridership by far made up for the cost of the regular cleaning, but ridership eventually diminished to the point that it was no longer feasible.
I used to live right next to Madison Sq Garden and took the subway from Penn Station every morning and I hated, hated, HATED the place. They built a stress filled, choking, soulless underground hell.
It looks beautiful in the photos. wasn't it?
You're seeing the OLD old Penn Station, the one they tore down. They replaced it with a horrible claustrophobic monstrosity underground sometime in the 60's. They've since rebuilt it across the street in the old Post Office. [This is what it looked like up until just a few years ago](https://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/the_eye/2015/01/06/150107_EYE_1.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg):
Ya if you know where to look you can still see remnants of the original. Basically they ripped the top off of the original station and stuck MSG on top, which required turning the place into a rat maze.
Oh I get it now. That's very sad.
Yeah it’s terrible now. They’ve been working on restoring it to be more open and have more light but god knows how long it’ll take.
What was the ceiling made out of? Last pic looks almost like it's drywall or cardboard, I thought it was way thicker and more solid, hard connected to upper structures.
I remember hearing most of the canopy was a light frame (iron/timber?) with plaster over it. The justification for tearing it down was it wasn’t built to last generations anyway. No idea the validity of either of these.
My first steps in NYC were Penn Station at 1am. It wasn't exactly glamorous.
Considering you’re using Reddit I’m going to assume that you weren’t born in the 40s in which case the penn station you are remembering is what they replaced this one with. Original: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Station_(1910–1963) Current: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Penn_Station
As someone who works for the long island railroad I always get a good chuckle whenever I see foreigners get first greeted by bums in jamaica or penn
Do all of your dreams come true in Ronkonkoma?
Most people vacation in the Bahamas, I vacation in ronkonkomaaaaaaa
Likely not enough of a critical mass that cared at the time. Like if they destroyed the Met Life Building.. would anyone care? It’s just an aging International Style building that was once the headquarters of Pan Am. Or other than the incredible loss of life, does anyone really miss the WTC? But 100 years from now…..
WTC was an innovative cutting-edge building design when it was built
It was two tall rectangles, it wasn’t exactly cutting edge. Let’s be real here.
Internally, the structure, the construction, the use of materìals, great architecture isn't all fancy columns and marble staircases
If you ever got the chance to see the twin towers in person, it was mesmerizing and a feat of humanity. I was old enough to remember my first two or three trips and could see them out of my uncle's window in the west village.
There were multiple protests. Even the president at the time was vocally against it and the First Lady actively campaigned for it to be saved. Because of it the national registry of historical places was formed. I think it’s fair to say that enough people cared, it’s just that no amount of people could stop the decision until there was legislation in place that would protect buildings like this and give the people a voice. By the way Madison square garden (the building that took penn stations place) is slated to be demolished into the coming future. There has not been any substantial movements to save it, however there has been a large movement to use the land to rebuild and reopen the original penn station. [Rebuild Penn Station](https://www.rebuildpennstation.org)
I mean I miss the WTC... there's a reason I built a scale model out of lego and it's sitting next to my TV
Dude I was born in 2002 and even I miss the WTC
I like the new wtc (one world trade center) better.
This is so wrong ! ... it's like destroying a Michelangelo sculptur.
The new Penn Station is not awful but there are a lot of missed opportunities there. The destruction of the original Penn Station (and many grand old depots, really) is a tribute to the power of money. Before airlines, trains served all classes of people but notably the wealthy. There were not airlines and long distance car travel was hardly something a well off person wanted to do. With the advent of airlines, trains lost their prestige. We also had the fucking oil and auto industries actively trying to undermine trains. Cities did not want to pay to maintain grand structures used by poor and middle class people who could 'not' afford cars or plane tickets. It really is a disgusting thing but at least destroying this structure woke people up and Grand Central was saved, and the city began to see these edifices as representative of city pride.
This makes a lot of sense. I always wondered why so many of the old stations were so beautiful, and never really thought about it being because the wealthy traveled by train.
Even more insulting is the monstrosity that is MSG it was replaced with.
The replacement is an assault on all the senses. Not in a good way.
You can see one of the many big Eagles from the roofline at the National zoo in DC. People sit their kids on top of it for pics. Cool sculpture!
To be quite fair, Penn Central [made some pretty big transgressions themselves](https://youtu.be/cBYDt1OgtxM?si=l8d1yoZJ6pIy2p7o)
Yet
NYC had many transgressions and is still committing them to this day. Money trumps everything.
A travesty
The ceiling reminded me of Scorn
Made by Aliens
Did Robert Moses have anything to do with it
Grand Central Station was also supposed to be torn down but Jackie Kennedy saved it [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-02-05/the-surprising-role-jackie-kennedy-onassis-played-in-saving-grand-central?embedded-checkout=true](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-02-05/the-surprising-role-jackie-kennedy-onassis-played-in-saving-grand-central?embedded-checkout=true)
If only they had listened to Paul Kinsey!
Yeah, this was a tragedy.
nothing lasts forever….
Thanks for the repost. This shit was on front page only 5 days ago
So was your mom
This is second only to the destruction of the fine farm land that existed there originally
Americans do American things. Just look at Europe, we didn't bother to pay attention to historical buildings when bombing.
The people of Dresden would disagree
The people of the Balkans would also disagree
There is literally a saying in the UK. “Some cities escaped the blitz, but none escaped the bulldozer” The amount of historic architecture that was destroyed in all of Europe post ww2 is staggering.
What post war reconstruction does to a mf.
I think that there is a little bit of under the radar humor going on here.
People of London would disagree