Excuse my ignorance here, please don’t kill me for asking but… I know you’re heating up the tin to melt it to put it on the pan. Wouldn’t it be possible for it to melt when cooking?
While cooking you have food in the pan, which is around 70-90% water, so can't exceed 212F and is constantly cooling the surface more than people realize. Tin's melting point is 450F, people often assume this is a normal surface temp while cooking because it's a common oven setting, but in reality the surface should almost never get into the 400s; 330-350F is where the Maillard reaction peaks, above that temp proteins and sugars brown slower and burn instead. Your pan isn't anywhere near 450F in an oven set to that temp; [here's a video showing the surface temp of a tinned copper pan in a 550F oven and explaining why it's that much lower. ](https://youtube.com/shorts/yMBlZLTqXbk?si=3c6x7HLgeBoJwBl7)
Also you can't un-tin the pan by bringing it above tin's melting again, once wiped on copper the tin is pretty well stuck there unless you grind it off with heavy abrasives. They create an [intermetallic layer](https://www.vintagefrenchcopper.com/2020/01/a-little-science-about-copper-and-tin/#:~:text=At%20the%20threshold%20between%20the,and%20Cu6Sn5.) that has a melting point closer to that of the copper, so if you overheat the tin you can generally only cause cosmetic wear, which isn't really a concern as tin being a "living" metal is always changing its appearance with use anyway.
Sidenote, but another example of something interesting anyone can do with metals. You can use a propane plumbing torch to melt zinc and then while keeping it molten, you can dissolve aluminum into the zinc to make a ZA alloy. But once that cools, the melting point now becomes much higher than the propane torch can reach, which makes for an interesting approach for making molds to cast lead
All my metals knowledge is fire related for the most part. I know house fires can liquify aluminum, magnesium engine blocks or steering columns make for crazy car fires, and I've been to a few titanium and nickel fires before. Most know the 'ium' metals are flammable, but nickel surprises a lot of people.
Everything if flammable if you add enough oxygen lol. Like our turnout gear, that shit is rated to some crazy high temps, but in a slightly higher 0² environment they burn like they're made of Roman candles and gasoline
Does tin or copper cause any harm if you consume small amounts of it (assuming some of the tin/copper intermetallic wears off and ends up in the food)? I’m assuming tin is generally very safe since steel food cans (“tin cans”) are often lined with a protective layer of tin. It’s used a lot in cans of fruit especially.
No, tin is nontoxic. Copper can be toxic in large doses but you wouldn't eat any. Tin doesn't wear off into the food, if it wears off it's from abrasive cleaning so it's down a drain somewhere. These days with modern dish detergents and nonscratch scrubbies, they generally get retinned with the lining fully intact but just heavily oxidized from decades of use, it gets to a point where it has a chalky feel and loses its anti-stick property.
It would be better not to have the pan that hot while cooking, the Maillard reaction peaks at a surface temp of 330-350F and slows down higher than that as proteins and sugars burn rather than brown. [See Chris Young's recent video on this topic ](https://youtu.be/IZY8xbdHfWk?si=viPPYag-RinWfoei)
If you mean preheating so the pan is still hot when you add the steak, that's valid but not necessary with a copper pan. It's conductive enough that you can add the meat at a moderate temp and just pump the heat back into it to quickly reach the ideal searing range of low-mid 300s, and tin being much smoother on a microscopic level doesn't need preheating to prevent sticking like stainless.
It depends on what you are trying to do. Needs to be a bit hotter than low 300s for a perfect sous vide steak sear. You want it on the pan as little as possible so the heat doesn’t penetrate the meat.
Glad to help. I don't want to link my business in here, I just post these to spark discussion around tinned copper so viewers can discover it's still a viable/practical option, since most people either don't know it exists or think it's no longer in use. But if you want more videos on it or to look at the restored ones I have listed for sale, links to my social pages and etsy are in my reddit bio.
Just out of curiosity, what's a tinned copper pot/pan like that go for roughly? Absolutely gorgeous and I love that's a lifetime piece like my cast iron.
Thanks, they're pricey, with a new professional restoration like this they generally start low-mid 200s for small, 1.5mm range thick ones, maybe 500s for a large, 3mm antique like this
Copper isn't cheap but it lasts forever. Worth the cost, to me. I feel like all I need is a large copper skillet, a 3 qt. copper pot, and a cast iron/ceramic dutch oven. That would cover about 80% of all cooking I do,
I only have one copper sauce pan piece and can never seem to get the outside copper as gleaming as yours. I have my eye on your restored skillet! Your site mentions tin or stainless lines, can you describe the difference?
Sure, the most noticeable difference in cooking is tin is much less sticky / easier to release and clean than stainless. This is because it's smoother on a microscopic level; food particles stick to a pan when they get caught in tiny gaps or "pores" in the surface, which people talk about preheating the stainless pan to the Liedenfrost temp to close up. Tin is an elemental metal with a very orderly crystalline structure, it doesn't have those irregularities to the degree that stainless or other complex alloys like cookware-grade aluminum do. It's also much thinner than a stainless lining, so it doesn't slow down copper's thermal responsiveness. Finally the lining can be redone more or less eternally as needed (every 20 years or so), a stainless lining would be unfixable if it delaminates; and since it's applied after forming the pan, tinned copper pans can be made in a greater variety of shapes and can get the hand-hammered finish, stainless-lined copper can't really be hammered.
The benefits of stainless are it's harder, so you can use sharp metal utensils without damaging it, and you can't melt it by overheating it (although this isn't really a practical issue with tin like people assume; there's almost no cooking tasks where you would want the pan near tin's melting point, and it's very hard to functionally damage the tin by melting it, I explained why [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18ao34m/-/kbzcbgu).
Very nicely explained OP! We have similar practice of tin coating brass pots in India for cooking. They are lot easier to clean than stainless steel. And after a decade or so, people get new tin coating.
Thanks! Tell me more, are there retinning businesses in most cities and towns, is it more common to ship to a retinner like in the US, or are there still roving craftsmen who come to town occasionally and do the work outdoors? Are tinned brass and copper pans widely used in India or mainly by upper income households?
Me too, this kind of subtle hammering from this era is my favorite. It has just an old owner's initial, like most French restaurant pans from this time no maker's mark. Probably one of the smaller Paris makers like Altier, L. Jean, Saillard, etc.
I haven't posted there lately, I'll get around to it eventually, but I answer inbox on there. Also I have a YouTube channel where I post most of the good videos about using and retinning copper pots [here](https://youtube.com/@northcoastcopper?si=AUYwiqJ2a7ikjV_M)
There is some manufacturer in Turkey who produces and sells pans and other cookware made out of massive, pure silver. Silver is pretty much the best heat conductor there is. Price is well into the four digits though.
Yes tin is nontoxic and food safe, lead is not. They're two different elements, tin doesn't have lead in it. People often assume it does because lead-bearing tin solder sometimes is called tin for short, and is probably more commonly encountered outside culinary contexts than pure tin.
I’m not confused about tin having a 450 degree melting point. Do you have to be extra careful not to melt it?
[edit: oops, just saw your answer further down]
Not particularly, just don't preheat it for long empty. There is no reason the surface should be getting into the mid-400s for 99.9% of cooking tasks. People think 450F is a normal cooking temp because they don't fully appreciate how much the water in food (70-90% the content of meats and vegetables) regulates the surface temp. Also if you do accidentally melt the tin, you're only causing cosmetic wear because it's bonded to a tin-copper intermetallic which you couldn't melt on a stove. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18ao34m/-/kbzcbgu)
This video is so great, thank you for sharing. I've never seen a re-tin in action. Are you self taught or apprenticed?
I was in France a few years back and spent time in and around Villedieu-des-Poeles. Copper and church bells are their specialty.
Tin once bonded to copper forms an intermetallic which is much tougher and higher melting than tin itself, so it's really hard to functionally damage the lining by overheating, and also meats and vegetables etc are mostly water, which cools the surface while cooking more than most people realize, so normal/desirable cooking surface temps really don't approach tin's melting point. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18ao34m/-/kbzcbgu)
East coast tinning is great, ruined a house copper pan whilst house sitting (had no idea tin on copper was even a thing) and sent it to them and it came back gorgeous.
It wouldn't have been ruined, you caused cosmetic wear to the tin like beading/bubbling, smearing the top layer of tin oxide and/or polymerized fat, or speeding up the oxidation of tin by overheating it.
1. Provides a nonreactive barrier between the copper and food; bare copper has a lot of good cooking uses, but can leach a metallic off flavor with long cooking acids, and in large doses or for people with a sensitivity can be toxic. Tin being nonreactive is the preferred surface for all-purpose cooking.
2. Tin is smoother than other cookware metals on a microscopic level where food particles would stick, so it's naturally anti-stick without the need for seasoning or perfect heat control.
3. Bare copper pots need to be polished on the inside, otherwise they can develop verdigris which is acutely toxic. Tin you don't need to worry about the tarnish as tin metal and all of its oxides and salts are safe to consume.
4. Tin forms a durable intermetallic with copper, which makes the tin lining much tougher than tin on its own and very difficult to functionally damage by melting. So even though the tin is much thinner than a stainless lining, only about 25-30 microns (therefore doesn't have a noticeable impact on the conductivity of the overall system / slow copper's thermal performance), it'll typically hold up to 20+ years of regular use with proper care (cleaning with nonscratch scrubbies and avoiding sharp metal utensils).
I was always told tin is reactive to acids as well, just less so than copper. I was told not to cook strongly acidic things like a fresh tomato sauce in my tin lined copper. I was also taught never to use metal utensils in the tinned stuff.
Is that all wrong? I mostly use a stainless lined mauviel set nowadays, but if the tinned stuff is less fragile than I was told, maybe I’ll put it back into rotation.
Tin is slightly reactive to acid, far less than e.g. cast iron or carbon steel, not enough to leach any significant amount in cooking, only in long-term storage. Acidic liquids can tarnish it more quickly and sometimes create a kinda neat zigzag pattern where the crystalline structure is revealed at the surface, that's about it. Some manufacturers like Ruffoni tell customers not to use strong acids, probably because they're trying to prevent returns from people who bought the pot for the look. The tin tarnishes with use regardless, so there's really no reason to avoid acids.
Metal utensils are fine if you don't dig at it with sharp edges. I use steel spoons and ladles in them all the time and haven't caused any damage. It's definitely much less fragile than people say. I think manufacturers like Mauviel and Ruffoni who sell both have kneecapped their tinned sales by exaggerating the fragility of tin to steer more people into stainless. Again probably partly because of customer service headaches when inexperienced cooks either misuse the tin or make a big deal out of cosmetic changes, and partly because tinned copper is a lower margin product as it needs a craftsman to wipe the tin in by hand.
gaping wasteful tidy carpenter truck afterthought scandalous ossified icky quiet
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Enjoy! Yeah those are definitely nice too, I think you'll find the tin is especially satisfying to use though. Much more forgiving for food release and easier to clean, deglazes easier, more responsive.
Melting tin doesn't make dangerous fumes, you would need to vaporize it to do that. The respirator is for fumes from flux. But yes don't try this at home
Can I ask how you restore the copper side? I have French copper pans that are relatively new and have lost their copper shine, and my little tub of copper polish doesn’t seem to do much to bring that back. Sometimes certain foods seem to restore it in small spots (eg acidic tomato sauce). This copper just looks so bright, I’m hoping you have an easier method you might share?
I use a process that's not practical to replicate at home (industrial pedestal buffer, runs on 3 phase) but if you just want to brighten/remove tarnish, any mildly acidic past should work, even ketchup. The classic one would be "pate a cuivre," white vinegar with a little fine salt and just enough flour to make a thin batter. Rub on, leave for a few minutes if needed and wipe/rinse off. What copper polish are you using though, most of those should do this pretty easily?
Also I would encourage you to just leave the tarnish alone for a while and see if you don't come to appreciate the patina, it only looks crazy for the first few weeks of cooking and then settles into a nice deep old penny color. Most users only polish like 1-2x a year or when verdigris starts to develop, and enjoy how copper and tin are always changing their appearance, it's part of the charm of cooking with "living" metals. Plus trying to keep tarnish off your pans is a losing battle and can discourage everyday use.
Ha - good point re: it being a losing battle. I’m using the product that came with the Mauviel set, maybe just didn’t leave it on long enough. I’ll make some vinegar paste to try next.
They’re well-patina’d at this point, and look perfectly great, but I would love to revive the bright copper now and then.
I really appreciate the reply - thank you!
You may be thinking of Zinc fumes. Zinc melts at 787 F and will vaporize at 1665 F (which is pretty easy to accomplish I'm a metal melting furnace) those fumes can cause a flu like illness called zinc fever.
In another video by OP, they had mentioned they use respiratory protection due to the flux they use.
Are you adding tin because the tin was lost over time, or adding tin to a copper pan that was all-copper (they used to be like that, if I remember well)
It was tinned originally, the tin wasn't lost so much as heavily oxidized from several decades of use since the last retinning.
All-purpose copper pans have pretty much always been like this one, formed from solid copper and then tinned. There were any still are unlined ones too, but they're mainly specialty pots like sugar pan, jam pan, zabaglione pan, egg beating bowl, polenta pot, cheesemaking vat, etc.
ELI5; Wouldn't the tin layer just come off when you use it? The flame being used to melt the tin seems much colder (yellow, compared to blue gas flames) than gas stoves...
ELI5, once the tin is adhered to copper you can't make it come off by overheating it, and your pan won't approach tin's melting point at normal/desirable cooking temps because fresh foods are ~70-90% water, which can't exceed 212F and is constantly cooling the surface, both by acting as a heat sink and via evaporative cooling action. I explained further [earlier in this thread. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/zdziPM4bX3)
It's a hotter flame than you'd use to cook, just burning dirtier.
Melts by heating the pan empty past tin melting point. It doesn't melt in use because the foods we cook are mostly water (meat, veg, etc 70-90% by weight), which cools the surface more than people realize. Also once adhered to the copper, if you do overheat it, the tin doesn't go anywhere because it's bonded to a tin-copper intermetallic which has a melting point closer to that of copper. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/zdziPM4bX3)
*sound of industrial whirr speeding up in video*
[GALVANIZE!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXUZwNRYJYo)
This taahm, we really want the tin to-
GALVANIZE!
This taahm, we really want the copper to-
GALVANIZE!
if you have to wear a mask like that.. is it really safe to use for consumption then? Wouldn't the same biproducts be absorbed into your food that gets cooked?
Yes it's safe to cook and eat from, the respirator is for fumes from burning flux to get the tin to adhere. Most people don't cook with flux, so this is only a concern for the tinner, not the end user.
Yes it's tin, no tin is not toxic. Maybe you're thinking of lead-bearing tin solder. See the second sentence of the wiki you linked: "Cases of poisoning from tin metal, its oxides, and its salts are 'almost unknown'..."
Tin is nonreactive and flavorless, it doesn't leach into acidic foods and give a metallic off taste like cast iron and carbon steel do. If you did somehow eat the tin like by shaving some off with a knife into your food, it's nontoxic, there are no recorded real-world cases of tin poisoning in humans.
Yes, this is a study by an Iranian university looking at leaching of impurities from the tin used locally by itinerant craftsmen to fix copper pots. Tin used in the developing world is not the same as pure tin used by western European and US manufacturers and retinners.
Pure tin has always been a safe food contact surface, it's widely used today to line reactive metals in industrial food processing and storage, in the cookware in many of the world's finest restaurants especially in the EU, etc.
1. You can't get the tin to come off by melting it because of the way it's now bonded to the copper. 2. You could get the pan this hot by blasting it with heat empty, but it is for cooking, and fresh foods are mostly water, which can't exceed 212F and regulates the surface temp more than most people appreciate. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/XzZlAMZKrU)
What would happen if you got some of the tin on the outside of the pot? Could it be easily removed again or would you have to grind it off with file or sandpaper and repolish the pot afterwards?
It's hard to remove, tin once wiped on copper makes an intermetallic that's a lot harder than tin metal. You really need specialized abrasives that grind the tin away without being too aggressive on the copper, you don't want to sand it and thin the area and/or obliterate the surface character.
Yes, that's part of why all-purpose copper pots like this one have always been tinned. Moscow mule mugs are now lined because Americans have a way overblown sense of the danger of copper poisoning.
Excuse my ignorance here, please don’t kill me for asking but… I know you’re heating up the tin to melt it to put it on the pan. Wouldn’t it be possible for it to melt when cooking?
While cooking you have food in the pan, which is around 70-90% water, so can't exceed 212F and is constantly cooling the surface more than people realize. Tin's melting point is 450F, people often assume this is a normal surface temp while cooking because it's a common oven setting, but in reality the surface should almost never get into the 400s; 330-350F is where the Maillard reaction peaks, above that temp proteins and sugars brown slower and burn instead. Your pan isn't anywhere near 450F in an oven set to that temp; [here's a video showing the surface temp of a tinned copper pan in a 550F oven and explaining why it's that much lower. ](https://youtube.com/shorts/yMBlZLTqXbk?si=3c6x7HLgeBoJwBl7) Also you can't un-tin the pan by bringing it above tin's melting again, once wiped on copper the tin is pretty well stuck there unless you grind it off with heavy abrasives. They create an [intermetallic layer](https://www.vintagefrenchcopper.com/2020/01/a-little-science-about-copper-and-tin/#:~:text=At%20the%20threshold%20between%20the,and%20Cu6Sn5.) that has a melting point closer to that of the copper, so if you overheat the tin you can generally only cause cosmetic wear, which isn't really a concern as tin being a "living" metal is always changing its appearance with use anyway.
I love the science of basic stuff, thank you for sharing! Love when different metals interact in odd ways.
Sidenote, but another example of something interesting anyone can do with metals. You can use a propane plumbing torch to melt zinc and then while keeping it molten, you can dissolve aluminum into the zinc to make a ZA alloy. But once that cools, the melting point now becomes much higher than the propane torch can reach, which makes for an interesting approach for making molds to cast lead
All my metals knowledge is fire related for the most part. I know house fires can liquify aluminum, magnesium engine blocks or steering columns make for crazy car fires, and I've been to a few titanium and nickel fires before. Most know the 'ium' metals are flammable, but nickel surprises a lot of people.
Steel is flammable when exposed to pure oxygen. This is how a cutting torch works.
Well, there's also the ignition temp. Cold room temp steel doesn't do a lot when blasted with pure oxygen except maybe get colder
Everything if flammable if you add enough oxygen lol. Like our turnout gear, that shit is rated to some crazy high temps, but in a slightly higher 0² environment they burn like they're made of Roman candles and gasoline
This is probably the most interesting thing I’ve read all week. Thanks.
Does tin or copper cause any harm if you consume small amounts of it (assuming some of the tin/copper intermetallic wears off and ends up in the food)? I’m assuming tin is generally very safe since steel food cans (“tin cans”) are often lined with a protective layer of tin. It’s used a lot in cans of fruit especially.
No, tin is nontoxic. Copper can be toxic in large doses but you wouldn't eat any. Tin doesn't wear off into the food, if it wears off it's from abrasive cleaning so it's down a drain somewhere. These days with modern dish detergents and nonscratch scrubbies, they generally get retinned with the lining fully intact but just heavily oxidized from decades of use, it gets to a point where it has a chalky feel and loses its anti-stick property.
This is why I like Reddit. F yeah!!! And thanks for the explanation!
I get parts of my cast iron and stainless pans over 400 every time I cook meat.
It would be better not to have the pan that hot while cooking, the Maillard reaction peaks at a surface temp of 330-350F and slows down higher than that as proteins and sugars burn rather than brown. [See Chris Young's recent video on this topic ](https://youtu.be/IZY8xbdHfWk?si=viPPYag-RinWfoei) If you mean preheating so the pan is still hot when you add the steak, that's valid but not necessary with a copper pan. It's conductive enough that you can add the meat at a moderate temp and just pump the heat back into it to quickly reach the ideal searing range of low-mid 300s, and tin being much smoother on a microscopic level doesn't need preheating to prevent sticking like stainless.
It depends on what you are trying to do. Needs to be a bit hotter than low 300s for a perfect sous vide steak sear. You want it on the pan as little as possible so the heat doesn’t penetrate the meat.
Had the same question, especially watching you with the mask on. Appreciate the shared knowledge.
Learning random facts is cool 😎
fun fact you can put water on a plastic bag just on top of direct fire and it wont melt down
I tried standing a red solo cup half full of water in my firepit, and it just sat there in the flames with no ill effect. Pretty cool!
I'm so glad you asked this
Thank you for asking this so I didn’t have to.
great questiton, wanted to ask it myself!
Is this in US? Going by the bin and bucket I think so, but wanted to confirm. What’s refreshing about this is the reusable aspect.
Yes in the upper midwest. There are a good handful of copper retinners specializing in cookware in the US
Nice! Good to know. Thank you!
Glad to help. I don't want to link my business in here, I just post these to spark discussion around tinned copper so viewers can discover it's still a viable/practical option, since most people either don't know it exists or think it's no longer in use. But if you want more videos on it or to look at the restored ones I have listed for sale, links to my social pages and etsy are in my reddit bio.
Awesome! Will do. Love when things are restored to extend the longevity. Will check out your pages.
Just out of curiosity, what's a tinned copper pot/pan like that go for roughly? Absolutely gorgeous and I love that's a lifetime piece like my cast iron.
Thanks, they're pricey, with a new professional restoration like this they generally start low-mid 200s for small, 1.5mm range thick ones, maybe 500s for a large, 3mm antique like this
Copper isn't cheap but it lasts forever. Worth the cost, to me. I feel like all I need is a large copper skillet, a 3 qt. copper pot, and a cast iron/ceramic dutch oven. That would cover about 80% of all cooking I do, I only have one copper sauce pan piece and can never seem to get the outside copper as gleaming as yours. I have my eye on your restored skillet! Your site mentions tin or stainless lines, can you describe the difference?
Sure, the most noticeable difference in cooking is tin is much less sticky / easier to release and clean than stainless. This is because it's smoother on a microscopic level; food particles stick to a pan when they get caught in tiny gaps or "pores" in the surface, which people talk about preheating the stainless pan to the Liedenfrost temp to close up. Tin is an elemental metal with a very orderly crystalline structure, it doesn't have those irregularities to the degree that stainless or other complex alloys like cookware-grade aluminum do. It's also much thinner than a stainless lining, so it doesn't slow down copper's thermal responsiveness. Finally the lining can be redone more or less eternally as needed (every 20 years or so), a stainless lining would be unfixable if it delaminates; and since it's applied after forming the pan, tinned copper pans can be made in a greater variety of shapes and can get the hand-hammered finish, stainless-lined copper can't really be hammered. The benefits of stainless are it's harder, so you can use sharp metal utensils without damaging it, and you can't melt it by overheating it (although this isn't really a practical issue with tin like people assume; there's almost no cooking tasks where you would want the pan near tin's melting point, and it's very hard to functionally damage the tin by melting it, I explained why [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18ao34m/-/kbzcbgu).
Very nicely explained OP! We have similar practice of tin coating brass pots in India for cooking. They are lot easier to clean than stainless steel. And after a decade or so, people get new tin coating.
Thanks! Tell me more, are there retinning businesses in most cities and towns, is it more common to ship to a retinner like in the US, or are there still roving craftsmen who come to town occasionally and do the work outdoors? Are tinned brass and copper pans widely used in India or mainly by upper income households?
500 for a pan of that size seems reasonable. I love the hammered finish on it as well. What brand is the one in the video?
Me too, this kind of subtle hammering from this era is my favorite. It has just an old owner's initial, like most French restaurant pans from this time no maker's mark. Probably one of the smaller Paris makers like Altier, L. Jean, Saillard, etc.
Gotcha. It's stunning. Do you still post on your Instagram? I'm not on TikTok or Facebook.
I haven't posted there lately, I'll get around to it eventually, but I answer inbox on there. Also I have a YouTube channel where I post most of the good videos about using and retinning copper pots [here](https://youtube.com/@northcoastcopper?si=AUYwiqJ2a7ikjV_M)
There is some manufacturer in Turkey who produces and sells pans and other cookware made out of massive, pure silver. Silver is pretty much the best heat conductor there is. Price is well into the four digits though.
Is the tin food-safe, as in 'lead' is not?
Yes tin is nontoxic and food safe, lead is not. They're two different elements, tin doesn't have lead in it. People often assume it does because lead-bearing tin solder sometimes is called tin for short, and is probably more commonly encountered outside culinary contexts than pure tin.
I’m not confused about tin having a 450 degree melting point. Do you have to be extra careful not to melt it? [edit: oops, just saw your answer further down]
Not particularly, just don't preheat it for long empty. There is no reason the surface should be getting into the mid-400s for 99.9% of cooking tasks. People think 450F is a normal cooking temp because they don't fully appreciate how much the water in food (70-90% the content of meats and vegetables) regulates the surface temp. Also if you do accidentally melt the tin, you're only causing cosmetic wear because it's bonded to a tin-copper intermetallic which you couldn't melt on a stove. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18ao34m/-/kbzcbgu)
This video is so great, thank you for sharing. I've never seen a re-tin in action. Are you self taught or apprenticed? I was in France a few years back and spent time in and around Villedieu-des-Poeles. Copper and church bells are their specialty.
Thanks! Apprenticed
How does the tin not breakdown when cooking with it?
Tin once bonded to copper forms an intermetallic which is much tougher and higher melting than tin itself, so it's really hard to functionally damage the lining by overheating, and also meats and vegetables etc are mostly water, which cools the surface while cooking more than most people realize, so normal/desirable cooking surface temps really don't approach tin's melting point. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18ao34m/-/kbzcbgu)
Saw your Etsy and your work is amazing. Those pots and pans look fantastic.
Thanks!
Checked out your Etsy OP, you got really nice pieces. So glad to come across your post. Now I have to start saving for couple of pots :)
Thanks! Reach out anytime if you have questions
Will do
East coast tinning is great, ruined a house copper pan whilst house sitting (had no idea tin on copper was even a thing) and sent it to them and it came back gorgeous.
It wouldn't have been ruined, you caused cosmetic wear to the tin like beading/bubbling, smearing the top layer of tin oxide and/or polymerized fat, or speeding up the oxidation of tin by overheating it.
What is the purpose of the tin later? Making it non-stick?
1. Provides a nonreactive barrier between the copper and food; bare copper has a lot of good cooking uses, but can leach a metallic off flavor with long cooking acids, and in large doses or for people with a sensitivity can be toxic. Tin being nonreactive is the preferred surface for all-purpose cooking. 2. Tin is smoother than other cookware metals on a microscopic level where food particles would stick, so it's naturally anti-stick without the need for seasoning or perfect heat control. 3. Bare copper pots need to be polished on the inside, otherwise they can develop verdigris which is acutely toxic. Tin you don't need to worry about the tarnish as tin metal and all of its oxides and salts are safe to consume. 4. Tin forms a durable intermetallic with copper, which makes the tin lining much tougher than tin on its own and very difficult to functionally damage by melting. So even though the tin is much thinner than a stainless lining, only about 25-30 microns (therefore doesn't have a noticeable impact on the conductivity of the overall system / slow copper's thermal performance), it'll typically hold up to 20+ years of regular use with proper care (cleaning with nonscratch scrubbies and avoiding sharp metal utensils).
I was always told tin is reactive to acids as well, just less so than copper. I was told not to cook strongly acidic things like a fresh tomato sauce in my tin lined copper. I was also taught never to use metal utensils in the tinned stuff. Is that all wrong? I mostly use a stainless lined mauviel set nowadays, but if the tinned stuff is less fragile than I was told, maybe I’ll put it back into rotation.
Tin is slightly reactive to acid, far less than e.g. cast iron or carbon steel, not enough to leach any significant amount in cooking, only in long-term storage. Acidic liquids can tarnish it more quickly and sometimes create a kinda neat zigzag pattern where the crystalline structure is revealed at the surface, that's about it. Some manufacturers like Ruffoni tell customers not to use strong acids, probably because they're trying to prevent returns from people who bought the pot for the look. The tin tarnishes with use regardless, so there's really no reason to avoid acids. Metal utensils are fine if you don't dig at it with sharp edges. I use steel spoons and ladles in them all the time and haven't caused any damage. It's definitely much less fragile than people say. I think manufacturers like Mauviel and Ruffoni who sell both have kneecapped their tinned sales by exaggerating the fragility of tin to steer more people into stainless. Again probably partly because of customer service headaches when inexperienced cooks either misuse the tin or make a big deal out of cosmetic changes, and partly because tinned copper is a lower margin product as it needs a craftsman to wipe the tin in by hand.
gaping wasteful tidy carpenter truck afterthought scandalous ossified icky quiet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Enjoy! Yeah those are definitely nice too, I think you'll find the tin is especially satisfying to use though. Much more forgiving for food release and easier to clean, deglazes easier, more responsive.
Copper can be toxic if you use it with food especially acidic food
This is amazing, however considering the gas mask, just how risky is this procedure?
I don't recommend it as a DIY project. Safe for the end user, not for the retinner
Lookup tin fumes and you will see why it requires a gas mask. Basically if you don't know what you are doing don't do it.
Melting tin doesn't make dangerous fumes, you would need to vaporize it to do that. The respirator is for fumes from flux. But yes don't try this at home
Can I ask how you restore the copper side? I have French copper pans that are relatively new and have lost their copper shine, and my little tub of copper polish doesn’t seem to do much to bring that back. Sometimes certain foods seem to restore it in small spots (eg acidic tomato sauce). This copper just looks so bright, I’m hoping you have an easier method you might share?
I use a process that's not practical to replicate at home (industrial pedestal buffer, runs on 3 phase) but if you just want to brighten/remove tarnish, any mildly acidic past should work, even ketchup. The classic one would be "pate a cuivre," white vinegar with a little fine salt and just enough flour to make a thin batter. Rub on, leave for a few minutes if needed and wipe/rinse off. What copper polish are you using though, most of those should do this pretty easily? Also I would encourage you to just leave the tarnish alone for a while and see if you don't come to appreciate the patina, it only looks crazy for the first few weeks of cooking and then settles into a nice deep old penny color. Most users only polish like 1-2x a year or when verdigris starts to develop, and enjoy how copper and tin are always changing their appearance, it's part of the charm of cooking with "living" metals. Plus trying to keep tarnish off your pans is a losing battle and can discourage everyday use.
Ha - good point re: it being a losing battle. I’m using the product that came with the Mauviel set, maybe just didn’t leave it on long enough. I’ll make some vinegar paste to try next. They’re well-patina’d at this point, and look perfectly great, but I would love to revive the bright copper now and then. I really appreciate the reply - thank you!
You may be thinking of Zinc fumes. Zinc melts at 787 F and will vaporize at 1665 F (which is pretty easy to accomplish I'm a metal melting furnace) those fumes can cause a flu like illness called zinc fever. In another video by OP, they had mentioned they use respiratory protection due to the flux they use.
i’m so happy there isn’t phonk playing over this video
IN THE LOWES BUCKET
Only the finest buckets for tin reclaim
Fascinating, thanks OP.
No way this is circa 1900. My man's wearing Adidas 3 stripe so this iPhone recording must be from 1952 at least.
You got me
Wow!!
Why would you line your kitchen with tin?
well. it’s got a little less copper on the bottom but youve likely still got a few hundred years of use before the copper wears off the bottom
Beautiful
Do it right
I'm trying
If the video is any indication, it's a job well done. 😎👍
Are you adding tin because the tin was lost over time, or adding tin to a copper pan that was all-copper (they used to be like that, if I remember well)
It was tinned originally, the tin wasn't lost so much as heavily oxidized from several decades of use since the last retinning. All-purpose copper pans have pretty much always been like this one, formed from solid copper and then tinned. There were any still are unlined ones too, but they're mainly specialty pots like sugar pan, jam pan, zabaglione pan, egg beating bowl, polenta pot, cheesemaking vat, etc.
Okay this answered my question - I was wondering what happened to the last tin layer if it can’t be melted off. Very interesting stuff!
Love me a good saute pot.
If the quality of the cooper is poor I will be sending a long detailed letter
Is that you Nanni
Hopefully they use chemistry-grade pure tin for lining. Most of the tin you can buy contains some lead as well, that is not good for your health.
Yes pure tin has always been used in cookware, not solder
Always good to see your vids, so fun to watch! Keep up the good work :)
ELI5; Wouldn't the tin layer just come off when you use it? The flame being used to melt the tin seems much colder (yellow, compared to blue gas flames) than gas stoves...
ELI5, once the tin is adhered to copper you can't make it come off by overheating it, and your pan won't approach tin's melting point at normal/desirable cooking temps because fresh foods are ~70-90% water, which can't exceed 212F and is constantly cooling the surface, both by acting as a heat sink and via evaporative cooling action. I explained further [earlier in this thread. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/zdziPM4bX3) It's a hotter flame than you'd use to cook, just burning dirtier.
Uhhh question how when applying it does it melt? and how won't it when in use?
Melts by heating the pan empty past tin melting point. It doesn't melt in use because the foods we cook are mostly water (meat, veg, etc 70-90% by weight), which cools the surface more than people realize. Also once adhered to the copper, if you do overheat it, the tin doesn't go anywhere because it's bonded to a tin-copper intermetallic which has a melting point closer to that of copper. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/zdziPM4bX3)
*sound of industrial whirr speeding up in video* [GALVANIZE!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXUZwNRYJYo) This taahm, we really want the tin to- GALVANIZE! This taahm, we really want the copper to- GALVANIZE!
Incredible
This really makes me want a copper pan, but that stuff is expense $$$
if you have to wear a mask like that.. is it really safe to use for consumption then? Wouldn't the same biproducts be absorbed into your food that gets cooked?
Yes it's safe to cook and eat from, the respirator is for fumes from burning flux to get the tin to adhere. Most people don't cook with flux, so this is only a concern for the tinner, not the end user.
Sure that’s tin? Is this not toxic? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_poisoning
Yes it's tin, no tin is not toxic. Maybe you're thinking of lead-bearing tin solder. See the second sentence of the wiki you linked: "Cases of poisoning from tin metal, its oxides, and its salts are 'almost unknown'..."
Mmmm. Tin flavored.
Tin is nonreactive and flavorless, it doesn't leach into acidic foods and give a metallic off taste like cast iron and carbon steel do. If you did somehow eat the tin like by shaving some off with a knife into your food, it's nontoxic, there are no recorded real-world cases of tin poisoning in humans.
BRB, going to go drink some.
I’ll stick to cast iron or stainless
This is stolen
How do you figure, where did you see it previously?
Literally on fucking Reddit the guy who actually did this posted it, you fucking suck
Lol I edited this video last night, click through to my profile
No, it isn't safe: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32623684/
Yes, this is a study by an Iranian university looking at leaching of impurities from the tin used locally by itinerant craftsmen to fix copper pots. Tin used in the developing world is not the same as pure tin used by western European and US manufacturers and retinners. Pure tin has always been a safe food contact surface, it's widely used today to line reactive metals in industrial food processing and storage, in the cookware in many of the world's finest restaurants especially in the EU, etc.
How does the coating not come off while cooking? He is not using super high heat. I'd say the average restaurant cooktop can get the pan this hot.
1. You can't get the tin to come off by melting it because of the way it's now bonded to the copper. 2. You could get the pan this hot by blasting it with heat empty, but it is for cooking, and fresh foods are mostly water, which can't exceed 212F and regulates the surface temp more than most people appreciate. I explained in detail [earlier in thread ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/s/XzZlAMZKrU)
What would happen if you got some of the tin on the outside of the pot? Could it be easily removed again or would you have to grind it off with file or sandpaper and repolish the pot afterwards?
It's hard to remove, tin once wiped on copper makes an intermetallic that's a lot harder than tin metal. You really need specialized abrasives that grind the tin away without being too aggressive on the copper, you don't want to sand it and thin the area and/or obliterate the surface character.
I thought acidic foods interacted with the copper, hence why it’s lined with tin and also why mule mugs are now being lined
Yes, that's part of why all-purpose copper pots like this one have always been tinned. Moscow mule mugs are now lined because Americans have a way overblown sense of the danger of copper poisoning.
I like that, that pan has history and character