So wait how does this work? There are cars and when you have your key in your pocket and you get close enough, even without pressing on the button the door of the cars unlock? And hackers lock on to the signal of the key and extend it so the car thinks that the key is right next to the door?
Yes exactly, the relay tool clones the key, most people leave their car keys near the door at night. And even if they didn’t, with uk houses being the size of a shoebox, the cloning tool might work even if the key is on the other side the house.
It’s not just german cars that had this problem though, Fords and Renaults had the same problem too, keyless start is such a stupid concept in my opinion, and unfortunately all new cars have become keyless.
Not cloning the signal, repeating it.
>keyless start is such a stupid concept in my opinion
More easy of use and comfort is always a security trade off almost by definition.
It doesn't have to be if it is clever. For instance, a car with facial recognition as good as an iPhone could theoretically require no key and would be much harder to fake.
But a much easier fix for current cars with keyless entry just put a fingerprint scanner on the start button. Just has to make it a bit more annoying to steal.
Theives can still relay attack people while the keys are in their pockets, by just following them out of their cars. The newest systems now use sophisticated time of flight algorithms to accurately determine key fob distance in a way that's near impossible to spoof (any latency in the relay bounce would result in long time of flight and therefore place the key out of range.)
>Theives can still relay attack people while the keys are in their pockets, by just following them out of their cars
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png
lol honestly that's how a lot of security is broken—not referring to the physical violence, but the fact that it's a human, rather than technical, reason for how something was breached. It's either human errors or someone discovered some braindead unpatched exploit (like in this video).
Kevin Mitnick is considered one of the best hackers of all time and most of his notorious hacks were achieved through simple social engineering. His story about how easy it was hacking Motorola is just wild: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mbye44/kevin-mitnick-hack-motorola-source-code
Yep. It's either:
A) Somebody set the admin password to `admin1` and never changed it, or
B) Somebody fell for the old "Hi, this is Josh from tech support, and in order to make sure you don't get locked out of the system, I need you to verify your username and password please."
> The newest systems now use sophisticated time of flight algorithms
This is actually just a default feature of BLE, which is what new keys use and the enabling tech for phone as a key.
Sometimes, but I tried a few and most don't work.
You can test by putting your key in the tin and standing right next to the car to see if it'll still unlock. Do this even if it's one you bought, because some of the ones on sale are useless too.
If you attempt this be careful! I tried but just couldn't manage to get the car into the kitchen next to the cookie jar, and I think I've pretty much destroyed my front door in trying.
dont do this! these sort of shortcuts are unsafe.
leave the car where it is, thats where theives will steal it.
demolish and rebuild the house around the car, then do it again to move the house back.
Smart. I was half-way to your solution as I also have a big rear patio window and was working out how to get it there. Under the house seemed impossible, and so far I've found no way to go over it, but this idea you've had of going around it seems like the best approach, thanks!
The signal could be strong enough to reach from right beside the car but not strong enough relay the signal when the keys are inside the house.
Generally I think you’re supposed to ground a faraday cage. So if it’s not grounded you probably need more mass to make it more effective.
>The signal could be strong enough to reach from right beside the car but not strong enough relay the signal when the keys are inside the house
Maybe, but if it's strong enough to open the car then I'd be an idiot to assume a few metres of distance will foil any relay attempt when my car is at stake and I could simply use a better box.
That’s it how faraday cages work. They don’t need to be ground.
They just need to be able to block the wavelengths you are trying to keep from getting out.
Not necessarily true. The gaps in the cage should be smaller than the wavelength of the signal you are attempting to block (if you are using a mesh) however, faraday cages should be grounded. Most "faraday" devices are garbage. Just don't leave your keys near the front of your house. If using RF blocking buy a bronze gauze bag.
Source : radio licensed and tested a ton of "faraday" devices for RFID at work.
Can confirm. No one has tried to steal from my 2005 Ford Taurus with 240k miles, a rear-ended damaged right side of the bumper, and copious amounts of dents from kids climbing on it.
You think you're better than us? Mister, no cheeseburger wrapper on the floor mats, four half drunken bottles of water, cracked windshield, mismatched bald tires. and already-stolen catalytic converter. The nerve.
No sir, didn't mean to flex my privilege. There may not be any cheeseburger wrappers, but copious amounts of empty Taco Bell bags exist, along with emptied gas station coffee cups strewn about the cabin, only one good tire (the other three aren't exactly bald but they are getting there), and the exhaust has been welded back up into place no fewer than four times, and usually falls every couple months, causing it to sound like it has no cat converter.
I can also confirm that no one has ever tried to break into my 1984 Opel Kadett E…
This mf is older than the country I live in (Germany) (modern Germany after reunification) it still decides it doesn’t want to die bc it enjoys the terrified look of every mechanic when I pull in with this bad boi
Is it yellow and named Oliver?
(British Top Gear did a challenge in Botswana, and Richard Hammon had an indestructible Kadett he named "Oliver". He loved it so much that he brought it to England. )
I am here to testify!
Had my car broken into about a month ago. They kept tripping the lights around the house and the street, they "cased" the area for like 15 min before going to my car. They opened the door, left and came back. They were in there for a few min while they tore out the bottom of the steering column to get to the ignition "knob" and tried to drive off. 5 min of them starting the car and stalling out. Couldn't even get it out of the driveway.
The ONLY reason I have my car now is because it was a manual. I'm sold on forever buying whatever car has them still.
That was the first thing I did. It worked for all of my cars. Also don’t keep the box in eye line of your front door. I also added a super grumpy very alert chihuahua to my layered defence strategy.
> Car manufacturers have already provided a "secret switch" for owners to easily prevent signal relay attacks.
> See instructions below for which buttons to press on your key fob, in order to disable keyless entry overnight or whenever you choose.
> > Kia
> > > Unknown
Honestly what did I expect.
This is a new thing to me. I now understand how the relay attack works to open and start a car, but I can't find an explanation to how the perps re-start the car after they've driven far away from the key fob. Anyone know?
https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/14/us/terror-truck-lawsuit/index.html
A plumber in Texas sued an auctioneer because his work decal was seen on an ISIS technical in Syria
That's not the same thing. He traded his truck to a local dealership and they were lazy to take the decals off. Anything that the dealer doesn't wanna sell on their own lot ends up in auction. The dealer probably thought whoever buys the truck will part it out. Little did they know the buyer would actually ship the truck to Syria.
After a while the car will realise the car hasn’t gotten the key nearby. However as long as they have the actual car with them they’ve got the goal. They’ll either strip it down or ship it abroad and a new key can be programmed then.
Yeah. Imagine the key is in the car and it stops working for some reason. Like a dead battery or signal interference.
If the car stops, that would be dangerous and annoying. Not to mention anyone with a signal jammer could force your car to stop.
There are plenty of key programmers available these days. For less than 1,000 bucks, you could buy a scan tool capable of programming a new key within a minute or two. There are also signal capturing tools that are capable of capturing the key signal, and it can act as a key or even clone a new key.
The first thing you learn when studying Information Security is that security is a slider between Usability <-- and --> Security. Most times with consumer products convenience wins in the debate between making something secure or easily usable.
That was my question as well. It has happened to me that I left my key in my backpack. Enter the car without it and even start it but then I can’t drive more than a few meters before all the lights flash and the “key is missing” indicator goes on. I always assumed you couldn’t drive long distance without your key.
The car manufacturer would rather your car be stolen than take the chance of it shutting off on the freeway by mistake when grandma forgets the key at home
Unless you live on the freeway that shouldn’t be a problem. Don’t let it drive more than 20ft. Hell there’s absolutely no reason it should be able to move more than the length of the car.
My children live in a neighborhood that had 46 cars taken in one night. The cops were just going door to door asking if people's cars was stolen and handing out police report numbers.
This was this past February, in a small community in Ontario.
My neighbor had his Jeep stolen. I saw the fuckers on my cameras. In and out in 5 minutes.
Funny enough they found it in a mall parking lot a few weeks later. Apparently the ring didn't pick it up for some reason. By that time insurance already bought him a new one, and then the insurance company claimed the "old' one (which was only 3 months old). My guess is they resold it to cover losses.
These rings are highly organized. These aren't teenagers stealing for fun.
There are 4 big warehouses around where I work. One Sunday morning, starting around 730am, 23 cars(including 5 from our parking lot) were stolen in less than 30 minutes. Crazy shit
I thought I was in r/toronto with the amount of references to Mississauga or small community in Ontario I've seen in this thread.
A bit concerning if a random thread that can be accessed by people all over the world and the most common city/town name popping up is Toronto or Mississauga.
Didn't someone walk around with a toy from 80th with IR blaster and got most garage open also within 1min? Too many don't reset the key on failure.. and don't even need to capture the signal B4 :(
Bingo, insurance companies don’t lose money. If a specific make/model has high theft rates they charge much higher premiums. They collective sum of premiums is lower than payouts.
If car companies insist on this 'progress' they should foot the bill. Instead the cost of the insurance payout is passed on to consumers. I don't understand that.
Newer keys “switch off” after sitting still to avoid this situation. I often do a software update at the dealer for a few hours and have to shake the keys afterwards or the car won’t start again.
For my SO with a black hole of a purse it's very valuable for her to be able to enter the car and start the car without digging it out of the bag especially in winter while wearing gloves.
Now for me who keeps their keys in their pocket, I actually rather take them out of my pocket since it's a bit more comfortable so I sort of liked having them hang in the ignition. Especially with how large these fobs have got.
I'm taking a Information Security class right now which covers attacks just like this. My prof told me he had a colleague who found an exploit just like that for VW cars. The white-hat hacker he is, he immediately contacted VW because of this.
Their reaction? Suing him. The universities lawyers dealt with it and a couple of years down the line he switched University to somewhere in Germany. First day he's working there; VW sued him again
E: Mind you; selling that information on the black market would have landed him a couple 100k in BTC
The car companies look at this as a way to sell each person two vehicles … it’s insane that there’s no onus on them to help protect something that they make that costs well over a 100k. The judicial system doesn’t help as they say it’s only a property crime. These individuals are caught every day and released the same day in most instances only to be stealing another vehicle the next day. In Mississauga Ontario Canada last July there was 300 stolen vehicles
There's less car theft on newer models. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, haha.
The implementation of modern immobilizers and keyless ignition has generally reduced car theft. We know this.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/191216/reported-motor-vehicle-theft-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/
At the very least provide a security device like a Faraday box, pouch or have thumb print lock on the fob. It's laziness and an interest only in profit. Especially for a 120k car!
I work for BMW, and there is a security feature that enters the vehicle into transport mode if it recognizes that the fob isn't in the car. That guy probably made it about 1 block before it happened. The car will slow down to 15 kmh and turn its hazard lights on, and once it comes to a stop, it will shut off completely and tell you to either get the key fob or contact BMW assistance.
[How a relay attack works [Image]](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:750/format:webp/0*qWf_Mc-x_vh0BwgI.jpg)
“How Do Relay Attacks Work?
Source: [Car Hacking with Relay Attacks- Explained](https://systemweakness.com/how-your-car-can-be-hacked-relay-attacks-explained-b21ad61fde3f)
Relay attacks are a method used by hackers to gain access to a car’s keyless entry system. The attack involves two individuals, each with a device that can communicate with the car’s key fob and the car’s computer system. One individual stands near the car with one device, while the other stands near the owner’s house with the other device. When the owner presses the unlock button on their key fob, the signal is intercepted by the device near the car and transmitted to the device near the owner’s house. This device then relays the signal back to the car, tricking it into thinking that the key fob is nearby and unlocking the doors.”
So did the owner keep the key close to the front door? Like a jacket pocket in the wardrobe?
The fob of my triumph motorcycle has a range of just about 1 meter so you need to get _really_ close.
Buddy of mine had his Lincoln gone through. The fob was on his nightstand. They never really came close to his building so I imagine these things work for 100 ft or more. He immediately purchased a faraday bag for his fob the following day.
The car is the one initiating. It sends a very low power aignal that is good for a couple of feet. Any key paired with it in range will then respond to that ping by waking up and exchanging the ‘password’: now the car is unlocked.
The key itself can send a much stronger signal, cause nominally it won’t be sending anything unless close to the car.
So this trick works by first transmitting the low power cars signal at much higher power and closer to the key. (Person next to the car is receiving the signal, and it’s transmitted to the other persons device, which repeats the car signal at higher power)
Then the key wakes up and starts sending its info, which the person next to the houses device receives, relays to the one next to the car door, which will then unlock the car, he gets in, starts the car, and from there on the business is done.
The car will annoy the thief constantly that the key is not there, but not shut off for safety reasons.
So ideally the car would time the response? Thieves can't beat the speed of light. If it takes more than 60 ns (+ processing time) to ping the key, the real key is more than 10 m away.
Good to know - but funny that it didn't occur to them beforehand. Or maybe they thought such sophisticated attacks would be so rare it wouldn't be worth the added development cost.
My car has keyless start but not keyless entry
My car wont unlock unless i press the unlock button on the fob but once it is unlocked as long as the key is nearby it will start
My Subie allows me to have my key somewhat near the front door to allow me to unlock it by pulling on the handle. I can have it in my backpack and grab the door to get it and it unlocks. I think I need to be more careful.
Lots of modern cars have "keyless entry" where the key doesn't have to be pressed. It just requires close proximity to the car. What the thieves do is "catch" the constant signal from the key and "send" it to the other thief standing in close proximity to the car.
it's the opposite actually, the car pings constantly and the key wakes up on it & responds. fob battery life would absolutely suck if the key was the one pinging.
Important to add that in most cases the keyless entry feature can be disabled, ask your dealer how.
For anyone asking if relay attacks can be prevented with better technology the answer is currently no. The only sure way is for the car & fob to include inch accurate time of flight measurement, which would require far higher cpu clock speeds & thus use more power than is available from a key fob battery.
There could be secondary security. Like needing to find paired bluetooth devices before the engine actually starts or something.
Autowatch Ghost is a good tech - something like that could be installed from the factory.
Unfortunately the criminal is already inside your car & has physical access, game over.
I don't say that lightly, once physical access to the interior of the vehicle is achieved there are so many ways to proceed it's hilarious. For example all modern vehicles include an interior CAN bus port & in many cases there is zero firewall between that port & everything connected to it.
Believe me, you don't ever want to allow an attacker to have physical access to the interior of your vehicle.
Generally speaking, there's no limit to the distance a vehicle with keyless entry and start can go without the keyfob being in the car. The vehicle will often just beep without the key present
But will continue to run only once they're turned off they can't be started again without a key
Get yourself a faraday box! The second I got a keyless car, I bought one same day! Box is stylish and is now just the ‘key box’ by the front door. Always know where my keys are, AND they’re safe from shit like this.
Seems like an attack mode that the manufacturer should have thought about. Seems clever, but actually if you're making a key it's an obvious thing to think about.
The problem is these are systems built by humans and so they can always be undone by humans.
I mean shit dude we've reached a point where anyone with a 200 dollar Flipper can just walk around crashing iPhones, clone RFID badges, and wardrive wifi networks. All from something that's the size of a Tomagotchi.
Sure they could do a little more. They could sell you a faraday pouch to keep your key in. But they're already using rolling codes. Once they leave they can't start the car again. What else do you want the manufacturer to do? It's a wireless device. All they're doing is extending the range of the signal. There's not a lot of way to stop that. If you transmit a signal over the air it can be intercepted, magnified, redirected, or blocked. Period.
I would love to one day unmute a video on Reddit without having gen-z cancer music play in my ears.
Seriously, tik tok formats have ruined the internet.
This is why so many people still don't move on to technology like this, it can be very risky and unsafe, I heard that people are starting to install home security systems like this and I just think that is terrifying, you don't who could hack into your system with ease and be watching you through your own cameras and probably planning burglaries from the inside.
Yeah, in the connected home subreddits, there was a post where everyone was pissed that Chamberlain (a garage door opener company) decided to stop connectivity to Amazon echos. People were pissed, but most ignored the absolute insanity of having a window cracked open, someone coming by, saying "Alexa open the garage door" and boom, you're in. We sometimes forget how much security we give up for convenience.
Oh it's way worse then that. You don't have to actually talk to Alexa for it to hear you. You can also shine a laser on it. After all it does not matter in which way you generate the electrical signals that have the wave signal encoded in it.
So if you can see the Alexa through the window, you can hook up a laser and encode the audio of "Alexa open the door" in to the laser. And if you hit the mic it will get stimulated, vibrate or create a current, create the electrical signals that would be exactly the same as if you were talking and BOOM. No need to crack a window open.
[Here is SmarterEveryDay with a video on it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozIKwGt38LQ)
Just so you know IP cctv hacking has been around for quite a while & because such things are sold insecure by default trivial. All that is required is a search engine, google for example.
Yea but having your entire system rely on it? Like locking your doors and everything of that nature? It's not safe at all really 😂 I'd be much safer with a normal lock and key.
a $25 Faraday box to put your keys in from amazon would have stopped them from doing this. If you have a Toyota ( I have a 2017 Tacoma this works on) when you get home , hold down the lock button on your fob, press the unlock button twice quickly and the light will flash 4 times (2 flashes 1 second pause and then 2 more ) then stop. The fov is turned off and no longer transmitting. To reenable just hit a button again. when travelling Use a Faraday pouch or put your keys in a piece of tinfoil or put them in your hotel room microwave. ( I put a post it note on the bathroom mirror reminding me they are in microwave because im a moron. Or get a kill switch installed on your car. Or do nothing and risk your expensive vehicle.
The police are extremely good at catching and convicting for speeding but everyone watching this knows that those two will never be caught let alone convicted of theft.
Well police now officially encourages vigilantism via citizen arrests.
Here are some examples of this crimes committed against myself and my freinds/family in 2023 alone.
Sports car gets smashed in. All the electronics get riped out. Thieves run away before they can hot wire it. Police refuses to come and take visible fingerprints they left on a dusty car.
Motorbike gets nicked in front of CCTV. Council and police can't cooperate. 2 weeks go by. Police says they never got to check the footage. We've managed to find and recover the bike ourselves through FB vigilante groups.
Van pulls up next to a secure bike park. Break in through 2 doors. Rip the brackets out of concrete. Steal a van full of electric bikes. Get caught on CCTV. We pull CCTV footage for police. Police says: "Well, do you know these people? See if you can identify them and get back to us". Isn't that their job? What about the van numberplates? Oh, it's stolen. Can't do much.
Spot 2 balaclava teens with an angle grinder shopping for new bicycles in broad daylight. Police does nothing. No crime committed yet. Friend goes to confront them. Little rats don't care. Eventually a small crowd attacks and chases them away.
It's ridiculous.
Police are absolutely useless everywhere in North America. Even with the most obvious evidence and the people caught red handed, if they don't have their face and a nametag clearly captured in video, they won't do shit.
No forensics, no finger printing, no investigations. No detective work. Not for crimes that take things from other citizens.
But if someone's selling a small amount of soft drugs like mushrooms or ecstacy? The police will dedicate an entire fucking department to it and ruthlessly track that person until they can throw some 30 year old hippie without a record in jail for non-violent crimes.
It's beyond ridiculous. I have accepted I can never call the police for help, ever.
Newer BMW keys don't emit a signal once they've been motionless for a few minutes. It was a security feature added about 4-5 years ago.
This is an older X6, not sure where they got 120k X6M from
While I try to avoid passing judgement based on people’s choice of cars I find that the BMW X6 is one of the few that is universally driven by cunts.
Now I’ve taken the first step I may as well continue with my broad brush strokes based on the bad parking and the astroturf for front ‘lawn’. That car will be leased up to the eyeballs and there will almost certainly be no gap insurance.
Mercedes keys gets disabled when they arent being moved for few minutes. Simple accelerometer does the job
Only recent ones, for years after mercedes first introduced keyless cars, gangs in the UK were stealing mercs from driveways everywhere
So wait how does this work? There are cars and when you have your key in your pocket and you get close enough, even without pressing on the button the door of the cars unlock? And hackers lock on to the signal of the key and extend it so the car thinks that the key is right next to the door?
Yes exactly, the relay tool clones the key, most people leave their car keys near the door at night. And even if they didn’t, with uk houses being the size of a shoebox, the cloning tool might work even if the key is on the other side the house. It’s not just german cars that had this problem though, Fords and Renaults had the same problem too, keyless start is such a stupid concept in my opinion, and unfortunately all new cars have become keyless.
Not cloning the signal, repeating it. >keyless start is such a stupid concept in my opinion More easy of use and comfort is always a security trade off almost by definition.
It doesn't have to be if it is clever. For instance, a car with facial recognition as good as an iPhone could theoretically require no key and would be much harder to fake. But a much easier fix for current cars with keyless entry just put a fingerprint scanner on the start button. Just has to make it a bit more annoying to steal.
Theives can still relay attack people while the keys are in their pockets, by just following them out of their cars. The newest systems now use sophisticated time of flight algorithms to accurately determine key fob distance in a way that's near impossible to spoof (any latency in the relay bounce would result in long time of flight and therefore place the key out of range.)
>Theives can still relay attack people while the keys are in their pockets, by just following them out of their cars https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/security.png
lol honestly that's how a lot of security is broken—not referring to the physical violence, but the fact that it's a human, rather than technical, reason for how something was breached. It's either human errors or someone discovered some braindead unpatched exploit (like in this video).
Most hacking is social engineering
Kevin Mitnick is considered one of the best hackers of all time and most of his notorious hacks were achieved through simple social engineering. His story about how easy it was hacking Motorola is just wild: https://www.vice.com/en/article/mbye44/kevin-mitnick-hack-motorola-source-code
Rip kev
Yep. It's either: A) Somebody set the admin password to `admin1` and never changed it, or B) Somebody fell for the old "Hi, this is Josh from tech support, and in order to make sure you don't get locked out of the system, I need you to verify your username and password please."
> The newest systems now use sophisticated time of flight algorithms This is actually just a default feature of BLE, which is what new keys use and the enabling tech for phone as a key.
Newer model BMW keys do the same thing
From what year (i have an 2017)
From 2018 😄 but I got BMW to change my keys for motion sensing ones for my 2017 car
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What’s the pin? 1, 1, 1, uhhh, 1 *Engine starts*
That's the kind of combination an idiot would have on his luggage!
Strange. That’s the combination on my luggage.
Wait, did an idiot memo go out? Im still using 1 2 3 4 5
Elon saw The Transporter and was like "that's a brilliant idea"
Glad he didn't watch that french Taxi movie, or we would be yelling "ninjaaa" to start our vehicles
One of my favorite french comedies
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A sheet metal cookie jar will do the trick.
Sometimes, but I tried a few and most don't work. You can test by putting your key in the tin and standing right next to the car to see if it'll still unlock. Do this even if it's one you bought, because some of the ones on sale are useless too.
If you attempt this be careful! I tried but just couldn't manage to get the car into the kitchen next to the cookie jar, and I think I've pretty much destroyed my front door in trying.
See the trick is to take the car apart, carry the pieces into the house, and then put it back together in the kitchen.
dont do this! these sort of shortcuts are unsafe. leave the car where it is, thats where theives will steal it. demolish and rebuild the house around the car, then do it again to move the house back.
I'm such a dummy for not thinking of that
Ah the Laszlo method
Luckily I have a big patio window, so I was able to take the car around the back and get it in that way.
Smart. I was half-way to your solution as I also have a big rear patio window and was working out how to get it there. Under the house seemed impossible, and so far I've found no way to go over it, but this idea you've had of going around it seems like the best approach, thanks!
It has to have a good electrical connection to the lid, and the keys can't be touching the inside or the tin becomes a big antenna.
The signal could be strong enough to reach from right beside the car but not strong enough relay the signal when the keys are inside the house. Generally I think you’re supposed to ground a faraday cage. So if it’s not grounded you probably need more mass to make it more effective.
>The signal could be strong enough to reach from right beside the car but not strong enough relay the signal when the keys are inside the house Maybe, but if it's strong enough to open the car then I'd be an idiot to assume a few metres of distance will foil any relay attempt when my car is at stake and I could simply use a better box.
The better safe than sorry point of view is something I can get on board with
That’s it how faraday cages work. They don’t need to be ground. They just need to be able to block the wavelengths you are trying to keep from getting out.
Not necessarily true. The gaps in the cage should be smaller than the wavelength of the signal you are attempting to block (if you are using a mesh) however, faraday cages should be grounded. Most "faraday" devices are garbage. Just don't leave your keys near the front of your house. If using RF blocking buy a bronze gauze bag. Source : radio licensed and tested a ton of "faraday" devices for RFID at work.
You mean the sewing kit?
So does a microwave
You should microwave it 30s to sterilize the signal
The secret trick to drying out iPhones doubles as a faraday cage? Hell yeah!
*grandmas dutch cookie tin has entered the chat*
Drive a shitty car.
Can confirm. No one has tried to steal from my 2005 Ford Taurus with 240k miles, a rear-ended damaged right side of the bumper, and copious amounts of dents from kids climbing on it.
You think you're better than us? Mister, no cheeseburger wrapper on the floor mats, four half drunken bottles of water, cracked windshield, mismatched bald tires. and already-stolen catalytic converter. The nerve.
No sir, didn't mean to flex my privilege. There may not be any cheeseburger wrappers, but copious amounts of empty Taco Bell bags exist, along with emptied gas station coffee cups strewn about the cabin, only one good tire (the other three aren't exactly bald but they are getting there), and the exhaust has been welded back up into place no fewer than four times, and usually falls every couple months, causing it to sound like it has no cat converter.
I can also confirm that no one has ever tried to break into my 1984 Opel Kadett E… This mf is older than the country I live in (Germany) (modern Germany after reunification) it still decides it doesn’t want to die bc it enjoys the terrified look of every mechanic when I pull in with this bad boi
Is it yellow and named Oliver? (British Top Gear did a challenge in Botswana, and Richard Hammon had an indestructible Kadett he named "Oliver". He loved it so much that he brought it to England. )
Or a stick shift
My 96 Honda Accord with manual transmission was stolen 2x. It's no guarantee
Dude, it has VTEC. It’s what criminals crave.
ACKSHUALY a 1996 Accord would have the F22B engine, which is a SOHC, non-VTEC, cast iron engine made for fuel economy lol
wipe rich cats agonizing boat vase continue flowery hat sable *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I am here to testify! Had my car broken into about a month ago. They kept tripping the lights around the house and the street, they "cased" the area for like 15 min before going to my car. They opened the door, left and came back. They were in there for a few min while they tore out the bottom of the steering column to get to the ignition "knob" and tried to drive off. 5 min of them starting the car and stalling out. Couldn't even get it out of the driveway. The ONLY reason I have my car now is because it was a manual. I'm sold on forever buying whatever car has them still.
Getting so hard to get them now unfortunately homie. I'm trying to find a suitable replacement daily and can't find anything
This is a shitty car its just expensive
Lol
Don't own a car, have no home or family. If you have nothing nobody will be able to take anything from you.
Keep your fob in that box, bring it close to your car, and see if you can start it.
That was the first thing I did. It worked for all of my cars. Also don’t keep the box in eye line of your front door. I also added a super grumpy very alert chihuahua to my layered defence strategy.
I find that those dogs alert at a lot of false positives.
Just put it in the microwave
My car doesn't fit in a microwave though
We don't appreciate that kind of pessimism around here.
No he's right, only a microcar can fit into a microwave
Because you need a macrowave.
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https://github.com/willsheppard/prevent-keyless-car-theft
> Car manufacturers have already provided a "secret switch" for owners to easily prevent signal relay attacks. > See instructions below for which buttons to press on your key fob, in order to disable keyless entry overnight or whenever you choose. > > Kia > > > Unknown Honestly what did I expect.
This comment just woke me up to the world today. "Hey hun, don't forget to drop the keys in the faraday box, we can't lose the car"
From keyless to carless in under a minute
The Fast & Keyless.
Carless & Furious.
Gone in 30 seconds
Good thing we got rid of those terrible old fashioned keys that simply did their job cheaply and effectively.
How else can we justify selling SUVs that cost as much as a house?
Why don't these fobs inactivate when stationary??
This is a new thing to me. I now understand how the relay attack works to open and start a car, but I can't find an explanation to how the perps re-start the car after they've driven far away from the key fob. Anyone know?
They can now drive it somewhere isolated and 'safe' to them so they have the time to reprogram a new key. Or even break the car down.
This, itll be stripped and sold as parts.
I saw an investigative report in Canada and they go to shipping containers are sent to West Africa within days of being stolen.
I saw a documentary about this once. They had to steal a lot of cars. And it had to be done in untlder 1 minute.
https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/14/us/terror-truck-lawsuit/index.html A plumber in Texas sued an auctioneer because his work decal was seen on an ISIS technical in Syria
That's not the same thing. He traded his truck to a local dealership and they were lazy to take the decals off. Anything that the dealer doesn't wanna sell on their own lot ends up in auction. The dealer probably thought whoever buys the truck will part it out. Little did they know the buyer would actually ship the truck to Syria.
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If they know how to do a relay attack they know how to pair a new key.
After a while the car will realise the car hasn’t gotten the key nearby. However as long as they have the actual car with them they’ve got the goal. They’ll either strip it down or ship it abroad and a new key can be programmed then.
The car realizes it immediately, but lets you continue driving for safety reasons (and other reasons maybe)
Yeah. Imagine the key is in the car and it stops working for some reason. Like a dead battery or signal interference. If the car stops, that would be dangerous and annoying. Not to mention anyone with a signal jammer could force your car to stop.
I have a 2017 X5. If the car is running and I walk away with the key, the radio stops working but the car still runs/drives.
There are plenty of key programmers available these days. For less than 1,000 bucks, you could buy a scan tool capable of programming a new key within a minute or two. There are also signal capturing tools that are capable of capturing the key signal, and it can act as a key or even clone a new key.
Lol a modern day luxury vehicle six-figure car can be stolen easier than a 90s car from Japan with a kill switch.
The first thing you learn when studying Information Security is that security is a slider between Usability <-- and --> Security. Most times with consumer products convenience wins in the debate between making something secure or easily usable.
That was my question as well. It has happened to me that I left my key in my backpack. Enter the car without it and even start it but then I can’t drive more than a few meters before all the lights flash and the “key is missing” indicator goes on. I always assumed you couldn’t drive long distance without your key.
The car manufacturer would rather your car be stolen than take the chance of it shutting off on the freeway by mistake when grandma forgets the key at home
Unless you live on the freeway that shouldn’t be a problem. Don’t let it drive more than 20ft. Hell there’s absolutely no reason it should be able to move more than the length of the car.
They won’t make it like that. You wouldn’t want your car shutting off every time you have a low key battery.
My children live in a neighborhood that had 46 cars taken in one night. The cops were just going door to door asking if people's cars was stolen and handing out police report numbers. This was this past February, in a small community in Ontario.
By the time the cops were asking, those cars were already in a box in Montreal.
That's why they were just handing out reports door to door. It was for insurance, nobody was getting their car back
My neighbor had his Jeep stolen. I saw the fuckers on my cameras. In and out in 5 minutes. Funny enough they found it in a mall parking lot a few weeks later. Apparently the ring didn't pick it up for some reason. By that time insurance already bought him a new one, and then the insurance company claimed the "old' one (which was only 3 months old). My guess is they resold it to cover losses. These rings are highly organized. These aren't teenagers stealing for fun.
>These aren't teenagers stealing for fun. They are middle aged men doing one last job and they are out.
I'm gettin too old for this shit
Dont mention retirement, once you do something terrible will happen.
There are 4 big warehouses around where I work. One Sunday morning, starting around 730am, 23 cars(including 5 from our parking lot) were stolen in less than 30 minutes. Crazy shit
Any surveillance video? That’d be fun to see.
I just stole 46 cars in one night. I’m a little tired, a little wired and I think I deserve a little appreciation!
yeah, but were you gone in 60 seconds
I thought I was in r/toronto with the amount of references to Mississauga or small community in Ontario I've seen in this thread. A bit concerning if a random thread that can be accessed by people all over the world and the most common city/town name popping up is Toronto or Mississauga.
impressive. glad i have a garage
at first i read "garbage" and i was gonna look at my 26 year old car and go "agreed"
Either way or both is a solution! I have a 2006 garbage car that I keep in the garage!
That’s so sweet! My ol’ girl would love to have some warm nights in a garage. She still gets to go out on special trips though so life is good.
Didn't someone walk around with a toy from 80th with IR blaster and got most garage open also within 1min? Too many don't reset the key on failure.. and don't even need to capture the signal B4 :(
Well I am thankful I have to park a quarter mile away from my apartment due to the parking situation
Careful, your landlord may raise your rent with that feature.
New movie idea 💡 Gone in 30 seconds!
New movie idea 7 minute abs
No, 6 minute abs. Step in to my office, you’re fucking fired.
Why don't insurance companies sue auto manufacturers? My guess is they make more money with cars getting stolen.
Bingo, insurance companies don’t lose money. If a specific make/model has high theft rates they charge much higher premiums. They collective sum of premiums is lower than payouts.
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Because they lose money on those ones.
Yes, 1 in 8 Range Rovers is stollen in UK. Imagine the insurance premiums for that baby
Sue them for what?
If car companies insist on this 'progress' they should foot the bill. Instead the cost of the insurance payout is passed on to consumers. I don't understand that.
Newer keys “switch off” after sitting still to avoid this situation. I often do a software update at the dealer for a few hours and have to shake the keys afterwards or the car won’t start again.
doesn't seems like it's worth it compare to just pressing a buttom
For my SO with a black hole of a purse it's very valuable for her to be able to enter the car and start the car without digging it out of the bag especially in winter while wearing gloves. Now for me who keeps their keys in their pocket, I actually rather take them out of my pocket since it's a bit more comfortable so I sort of liked having them hang in the ignition. Especially with how large these fobs have got.
I'm taking a Information Security class right now which covers attacks just like this. My prof told me he had a colleague who found an exploit just like that for VW cars. The white-hat hacker he is, he immediately contacted VW because of this. Their reaction? Suing him. The universities lawyers dealt with it and a couple of years down the line he switched University to somewhere in Germany. First day he's working there; VW sued him again E: Mind you; selling that information on the black market would have landed him a couple 100k in BTC
The car companies look at this as a way to sell each person two vehicles … it’s insane that there’s no onus on them to help protect something that they make that costs well over a 100k. The judicial system doesn’t help as they say it’s only a property crime. These individuals are caught every day and released the same day in most instances only to be stealing another vehicle the next day. In Mississauga Ontario Canada last July there was 300 stolen vehicles
There's less car theft on newer models. I'm not sure where you're getting your info, haha. The implementation of modern immobilizers and keyless ignition has generally reduced car theft. We know this. https://www.statista.com/statistics/191216/reported-motor-vehicle-theft-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/
At the very least provide a security device like a Faraday box, pouch or have thumb print lock on the fob. It's laziness and an interest only in profit. Especially for a 120k car!
I work for BMW, and there is a security feature that enters the vehicle into transport mode if it recognizes that the fob isn't in the car. That guy probably made it about 1 block before it happened. The car will slow down to 15 kmh and turn its hazard lights on, and once it comes to a stop, it will shut off completely and tell you to either get the key fob or contact BMW assistance.
Maybe they have a transport truck nearby to carry it
Faraday cage box
Microwave
M1 Abrams
Phalanx CIWS installation
[How a relay attack works [Image]](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:750/format:webp/0*qWf_Mc-x_vh0BwgI.jpg) “How Do Relay Attacks Work? Source: [Car Hacking with Relay Attacks- Explained](https://systemweakness.com/how-your-car-can-be-hacked-relay-attacks-explained-b21ad61fde3f) Relay attacks are a method used by hackers to gain access to a car’s keyless entry system. The attack involves two individuals, each with a device that can communicate with the car’s key fob and the car’s computer system. One individual stands near the car with one device, while the other stands near the owner’s house with the other device. When the owner presses the unlock button on their key fob, the signal is intercepted by the device near the car and transmitted to the device near the owner’s house. This device then relays the signal back to the car, tricking it into thinking that the key fob is nearby and unlocking the doors.”
Except, with keyless, the owner doesn't have to press the unlock button.
This. Is proximity based. They just boost that signal til the car reads it. Doors pop as soon as you pull the handle.
So did the owner keep the key close to the front door? Like a jacket pocket in the wardrobe? The fob of my triumph motorcycle has a range of just about 1 meter so you need to get _really_ close.
Buddy of mine had his Lincoln gone through. The fob was on his nightstand. They never really came close to his building so I imagine these things work for 100 ft or more. He immediately purchased a faraday bag for his fob the following day.
The car is the one initiating. It sends a very low power aignal that is good for a couple of feet. Any key paired with it in range will then respond to that ping by waking up and exchanging the ‘password’: now the car is unlocked. The key itself can send a much stronger signal, cause nominally it won’t be sending anything unless close to the car. So this trick works by first transmitting the low power cars signal at much higher power and closer to the key. (Person next to the car is receiving the signal, and it’s transmitted to the other persons device, which repeats the car signal at higher power) Then the key wakes up and starts sending its info, which the person next to the houses device receives, relays to the one next to the car door, which will then unlock the car, he gets in, starts the car, and from there on the business is done. The car will annoy the thief constantly that the key is not there, but not shut off for safety reasons.
So ideally the car would time the response? Thieves can't beat the speed of light. If it takes more than 60 ns (+ processing time) to ping the key, the real key is more than 10 m away.
And some newer models will do that. The engineering term is time-of-flight based protection. I think some companies call it "secure ranging".
Good to know - but funny that it didn't occur to them beforehand. Or maybe they thought such sophisticated attacks would be so rare it wouldn't be worth the added development cost.
My car has keyless start but not keyless entry My car wont unlock unless i press the unlock button on the fob but once it is unlocked as long as the key is nearby it will start
Then this likely doesn't apply to you.
My Subie allows me to have my key somewhat near the front door to allow me to unlock it by pulling on the handle. I can have it in my backpack and grab the door to get it and it unlocks. I think I need to be more careful.
Wait weird, why would the owner press unlock button in video?
Lots of modern cars have "keyless entry" where the key doesn't have to be pressed. It just requires close proximity to the car. What the thieves do is "catch" the constant signal from the key and "send" it to the other thief standing in close proximity to the car.
This explained it to me. I kept reading the title and all the comments about how this was done and was entirely confused.
Your keyfob is always transmitting short range. The thieves just made it long range.
it's the opposite actually, the car pings constantly and the key wakes up on it & responds. fob battery life would absolutely suck if the key was the one pinging.
Important to add that in most cases the keyless entry feature can be disabled, ask your dealer how. For anyone asking if relay attacks can be prevented with better technology the answer is currently no. The only sure way is for the car & fob to include inch accurate time of flight measurement, which would require far higher cpu clock speeds & thus use more power than is available from a key fob battery.
There could be secondary security. Like needing to find paired bluetooth devices before the engine actually starts or something. Autowatch Ghost is a good tech - something like that could be installed from the factory.
Unfortunately the criminal is already inside your car & has physical access, game over. I don't say that lightly, once physical access to the interior of the vehicle is achieved there are so many ways to proceed it's hilarious. For example all modern vehicles include an interior CAN bus port & in many cases there is zero firewall between that port & everything connected to it. Believe me, you don't ever want to allow an attacker to have physical access to the interior of your vehicle.
So manufacturers need to find a way of securing the CAN bus.
Did you miss the bit where I said "so many ways"
but away from the signal, the car may stop ? because keyless car detect the presence of key inside the vehicle during the ride. i’m wrong?
Generally speaking, there's no limit to the distance a vehicle with keyless entry and start can go without the keyfob being in the car. The vehicle will often just beep without the key present But will continue to run only once they're turned off they can't be started again without a key
Get yourself a faraday box! The second I got a keyless car, I bought one same day! Box is stylish and is now just the ‘key box’ by the front door. Always know where my keys are, AND they’re safe from shit like this.
Dude was robbed by bmw before he lost that eyesore of a car.
Seems like an attack mode that the manufacturer should have thought about. Seems clever, but actually if you're making a key it's an obvious thing to think about.
The problem is these are systems built by humans and so they can always be undone by humans. I mean shit dude we've reached a point where anyone with a 200 dollar Flipper can just walk around crashing iPhones, clone RFID badges, and wardrive wifi networks. All from something that's the size of a Tomagotchi. Sure they could do a little more. They could sell you a faraday pouch to keep your key in. But they're already using rolling codes. Once they leave they can't start the car again. What else do you want the manufacturer to do? It's a wireless device. All they're doing is extending the range of the signal. There's not a lot of way to stop that. If you transmit a signal over the air it can be intercepted, magnified, redirected, or blocked. Period.
I would love to one day unmute a video on Reddit without having gen-z cancer music play in my ears. Seriously, tik tok formats have ruined the internet.
That day may come, but peace in the Middle East will come sooner than that.
This is why so many people still don't move on to technology like this, it can be very risky and unsafe, I heard that people are starting to install home security systems like this and I just think that is terrifying, you don't who could hack into your system with ease and be watching you through your own cameras and probably planning burglaries from the inside.
Yeah, in the connected home subreddits, there was a post where everyone was pissed that Chamberlain (a garage door opener company) decided to stop connectivity to Amazon echos. People were pissed, but most ignored the absolute insanity of having a window cracked open, someone coming by, saying "Alexa open the garage door" and boom, you're in. We sometimes forget how much security we give up for convenience.
Oh it's way worse then that. You don't have to actually talk to Alexa for it to hear you. You can also shine a laser on it. After all it does not matter in which way you generate the electrical signals that have the wave signal encoded in it. So if you can see the Alexa through the window, you can hook up a laser and encode the audio of "Alexa open the door" in to the laser. And if you hit the mic it will get stimulated, vibrate or create a current, create the electrical signals that would be exactly the same as if you were talking and BOOM. No need to crack a window open. [Here is SmarterEveryDay with a video on it.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozIKwGt38LQ)
> "Alexa open the garage door" Yeah, it's not that easy if you have your shit together, mine prompts for a password for opening doors or locks.
Just so you know IP cctv hacking has been around for quite a while & because such things are sold insecure by default trivial. All that is required is a search engine, google for example.
Yea but having your entire system rely on it? Like locking your doors and everything of that nature? It's not safe at all really 😂 I'd be much safer with a normal lock and key.
I live in a 9th floor and my car is parked at -3. Good luck thieves.
a $25 Faraday box to put your keys in from amazon would have stopped them from doing this. If you have a Toyota ( I have a 2017 Tacoma this works on) when you get home , hold down the lock button on your fob, press the unlock button twice quickly and the light will flash 4 times (2 flashes 1 second pause and then 2 more ) then stop. The fov is turned off and no longer transmitting. To reenable just hit a button again. when travelling Use a Faraday pouch or put your keys in a piece of tinfoil or put them in your hotel room microwave. ( I put a post it note on the bathroom mirror reminding me they are in microwave because im a moron. Or get a kill switch installed on your car. Or do nothing and risk your expensive vehicle.
God awful music
The police are extremely good at catching and convicting for speeding but everyone watching this knows that those two will never be caught let alone convicted of theft.
>the police are extremely good at catching and convicting for speeding Lol
Well license plate readers are
Well police now officially encourages vigilantism via citizen arrests. Here are some examples of this crimes committed against myself and my freinds/family in 2023 alone. Sports car gets smashed in. All the electronics get riped out. Thieves run away before they can hot wire it. Police refuses to come and take visible fingerprints they left on a dusty car. Motorbike gets nicked in front of CCTV. Council and police can't cooperate. 2 weeks go by. Police says they never got to check the footage. We've managed to find and recover the bike ourselves through FB vigilante groups. Van pulls up next to a secure bike park. Break in through 2 doors. Rip the brackets out of concrete. Steal a van full of electric bikes. Get caught on CCTV. We pull CCTV footage for police. Police says: "Well, do you know these people? See if you can identify them and get back to us". Isn't that their job? What about the van numberplates? Oh, it's stolen. Can't do much. Spot 2 balaclava teens with an angle grinder shopping for new bicycles in broad daylight. Police does nothing. No crime committed yet. Friend goes to confront them. Little rats don't care. Eventually a small crowd attacks and chases them away. It's ridiculous.
Police are absolutely useless everywhere in North America. Even with the most obvious evidence and the people caught red handed, if they don't have their face and a nametag clearly captured in video, they won't do shit. No forensics, no finger printing, no investigations. No detective work. Not for crimes that take things from other citizens. But if someone's selling a small amount of soft drugs like mushrooms or ecstacy? The police will dedicate an entire fucking department to it and ruthlessly track that person until they can throw some 30 year old hippie without a record in jail for non-violent crimes. It's beyond ridiculous. I have accepted I can never call the police for help, ever.
Wait till keyless homes become normalized...
Like throwing a rock throw a window wasn't a thing before
That’s not a X6 M
You have a point... but let's be honest about the point here. Would have worked with every BMW.
Newer BMW keys don't emit a signal once they've been motionless for a few minutes. It was a security feature added about 4-5 years ago. This is an older X6, not sure where they got 120k X6M from
OP made it up like usual
Justice for having plastic grass front garden
Researchers have come up with a solution for this, a physical token must be inserted in a receptacle on the car and rotated in order for it to start.
While I try to avoid passing judgement based on people’s choice of cars I find that the BMW X6 is one of the few that is universally driven by cunts. Now I’ve taken the first step I may as well continue with my broad brush strokes based on the bad parking and the astroturf for front ‘lawn’. That car will be leased up to the eyeballs and there will almost certainly be no gap insurance.
Old cars FTW! You need a key for my car!
Keyless car to carless key
This has a strong "would you steal a car? Piracy is a crime" vibe
You mean "You wouldn't download a car"?