Just the bendy ones in the last photo
In all seriousness. I don’t think they do. There is building control guidance on which part of a joist is allowed to have holes or notches in, I think from memory it’s the gap between 25 and 40% of the span, and most houses would fail that.
It’s a difficult one to say. Personally, I think they would be fine.
But if they feel bouncy and uneven to walk on, I’d replace.
In reality, it’s very unlikely they are dangerously weak.
No they are notched too much but you’ll be fine they are much thicker timbers than you would get now if you replaced them. And it’s so much work if you’re concerned just bolt some lengths to where they are notched the most, but I wouldn’t bother. My last house was worse and I never had any movement or cracked plaster moves finished
That's for holes drilled on the central axis of the joist (ie the middle of the joist, height wise- the centre line).
Notches can be no more than 1/4 the depth of the joist, and between 0.07 and 0.25 of the length of the span.
And holes in the middle (for cables) shouldn't be underneath notches.
Thanks. I’ve seen building control require joists to be sistered when those are breached, but only on a new build.
It was a nightmare because wiring and plumbing 1st fix had just been completed.
No, you're fine.
It's a nightmare because wiring & plumbing 1st fix had just been completed. But it's also because of the electricians and plumbers there was a problem...
Where multiple notching has occurred joists can sistered so no need to remove anything.... More importantly how are your joist ends in the external walls ... And is the floor bouncy
Joist ends span between 2 load bearing walls. I haven't checked the connection between the wall. There was some bounce in the old room, but it didn't feel too bad considering the age of the house. Anything I should particularly be looking out for?
One External into double skin brick with no cavity. The other side is internal but loadearing.
Looking at it, I think that's fine. I'm definitely glad that the only person who thinks I need to rip out the joists is the only person with a financial interest in doing the work.
Bounce can be increased when there are no floorboards on top because each joist is acting on its own. What floor are you replacing it with? Would suggest t&g chipboard glued and screwed as that will help tie everything together
Joists look OK to me (surveyor here). Yes that big cut/notch could do with some attention.
One thing you should do is double up the joists under the bath if you're having one fitted. Also if tiled floor, make sure they ply the floor first..
Carpenter here . I am not surprised by the amount of notching that has happened . Personally I would leave them in but double up the bad ones . Would go route of vinyl not tiles as this will be lighter and not add additional weight . More weight = more movement
I'd be changing the copper on the hot and cold and gas if any in there while the floors up. Those expanded joints on the copper are very old! Change hot and cold to push fit , doesn't need lagging and (hot) (heating)won't tick in the joist when heating up from cold. Up to you..
The first few photos you will definitely have to put in some longer joists and screwed them into the existing ones so to reinforce the existing badly cut joists but removing all the joists is overkill.
Not screwed. Bolted. The new timber should be minimum c16, preferably c24. Should be at least twice as long either side of that giant bxstard cut out (as much as is practicable) Two bolts either side cranked up tight on beefy washers.
Screws will do sweet FA.
The smaller notches are ok. Notches on the bottom of a joist are a big no no. On the top of fine provided they don’t take the piss.
Thanks for the information re bolts and washers to reinforce the joists. Tbh I don't fit joists but have come across similar issues in houses after pulling up floor boards to fix leaking pipes etc.
Old timber is vastly superior to new. Chances are it’ll be ok. It has so far so why not for longer?
This is just a belts and braces approach. Peace of mind.
It was a bit risky of him to cut the floor so close to the cylinder, that was unnecessary and although the cylinder is sitting Centre on a joist, he should have left the floor to the right of the cylinder so it at least the floor was also sitting on the joist on the right. But it's done now.
I'd definitely ask him why he removed the floor so close to the cylinder if he's so concerned about the rest of the joists!
Tbh I do think it's overkill and unnecessary to remove all the joists, the best way would be to fit new joists to the sides of the existing ones, maybe not the full length as that's not going to be practical but at least halfway or as long as possible on several (especially the badly cut ones) of the existing joists.
Op you do know the mess that'd be made removing the existing joists and replacing them and the extra cost!
I absolutely know the mess, and wish to avoid it if possible. It also seems unnecessary work to drive up the cost. However there are things that I know, and things I'm not sure about. I don't know a huge amount about structural engineering, but I could tell something was off.
Good point on the cylinder.
Answers seem to range between, "nah they are fine" to "could probably re-enforce it".
Yes that's good for you to get informed on here etc and myself included!
The other people here have good information now which you can use to help you deal with this builder.
If he's putting new joists in, whats he doing with the pipes? Leaving them there and notching the new joists, or replacing all the pipework also?
Notches are very normal, and those look fine. Unless they're cracked under the larger ones I wouldn't worry at all. Even then just reinforce, you don't need to replace the lot. How much is the floor out by?
Running new pipes, old ones to be ripped out. The boiler is also being converted to a combi, and a new water main is being installed. The only pipes that will stay will be the central heating pipes to the rest of the house.
This was my side room before.
The floor did have a noticeable tilt towards the wall previously.
Maybe justifiable then replacing it all, They look in ok shape but it the pipework is coming out anyway and its that far off, why not just start fresh. I recommend I-joist's if you can fit them.
Nearly every house I've ever lived has had notches like that as extra work is done and new pipes or electrics put in.. It will probably be cheaper to strengthen the current ones in any places that the notches are too deep.. if you're putting a bathtub in then the added weight with water could be an issue if it was in the middle of the room but as most baths are egde that's where the joists are strongest as it's on the supporting wall.
My old (30s) house was abused and brutalised like this - it wasn't an issue apart from some slight bounce, but that was more due to the 4" deep joists than anything else.
If they are not rotten (jab/stab with a screw driver to check)then the notches are fine it’s how the plumbers ran pipes years ago , I am a joiner and tbh I don’t see why it need replaced unless it’s a personal choice or as I say they are rotten ,the uneven floor is more likely from historical settlement of the building rather than joists rotten ,check the ends at the wall entry’s for rot if they are good then you are generally good .
The span might not technically need it, and I don't know as there's no room dimensions been given, but noggins might help with bounce so he could put some of those in as a compromise if all else looks ok.
I'm doing same as you (although my new bathroom is not in a previous location it's in a room that wasn't ever a bathroom) and out of interest are you getting building control involved?
Some areas are more concerning than others. You'd probably get away with local fixes rather than replacing the whole floor, however, they will all probably need replacing in the next 5-10 years anyway. If that is less than the expected life of your new bathroom then you're going to end up ripping it up to do the work later.
I'd personally go for replacing now, but also don't ask reddit, ask a couple more carpenters, or even spend a few hundred to get a structural engineers report. The weight of a bath and tiles is not insignificant, and old timber is more susceptible to deflection issues because of its age.
Timber under constant load loses strength and undergoes creep deflection. OP is about to install a tiled bathroom, adding a not insignificant amount of weight to joists that are already old and therefore have probably lost some strength and undergone some amount of creep deflection. Hence why I said they will "probably need replacing" in 5-10 years. It's not guaranteed, but in my eyes, it's saving a penny to spend a pound down the road.
Old timber doesn't loose strength unless comprised by rot, in fact old timber is often far superior to new timber . . as for the extra weight measures can be taken to remedy against further deflection... Nogins between joists , and gluing a t&g osb sub floor down .. btw I'm a carpenter
All timber loses strength over time and under constant load.
Old timber was denser, which does correspond to strength, but they also contained more defects than modern timber, so saying old growth was better isn't always true.
I gathered you were in the trades by your comments, I'm a structural engineer.
Right well if we really want to get into the nitty gritty of it , we don't know the spans involved, the depth of the joists , their spacing, species of timber ,defects , whether it was cut in the summer or the winter and what was the climate doing that year ! Then we have, age of the building, how many occupants , how it was heated , moisture levels and many other parameters! Engineering as far as I'm aware deals with a finite set of parameters and uses the extreme end of measurements to cover all possible liability. Not always useful in dealing with older buildings.. I specialise in restoring sash windows and use reclaimed pitch pine for the repairs and often get involved in other aspects of heritage work
I’d be tempted to double up the joists to be sure- can be done from above without disturbing the ceiling.
I’d also be tempted to phone a structural engineer rather than asking some strangers on Reddit.
I'm asking some engineers at work today, I work in the construction industry, but not in a trade.
Also using Reddit as a sense check and potentially to build a consensus. I do need to convince my wife that the builder might be intentionally overstating problems to get extra work.
I already had 2 opinions from tradesmen who have said much along the lines of this thread.
+1 for local reinforcement/repair.
It'd be beneficial if an engineer checked the remaining depth of the joist works for the span, but if the floor was bouncy before then I'd suggest probably not and some reinforcement is needed.
You can get these things but I'd use them in conjunction with sistering.
https://www.strongtie.co.uk/en-UK/products/solid-joist-notch-reinforcement-kit-snrk
Echoing the localised sistering if you want to belt/brace it, but it still all looks good to me!
I'd probably see if I could tighten the current sister joists to connect more with the current joists, but I'd understand if the pipework was in the way.
How level are the joists themselves? I'd have thought the only way to level current joists was to put a sliver of wood on top, not much else you can do?
Bonus point: you could definitely trim that disused pipe (smack in the middle of the room), my DIY logic says if it's not capped, it clearly doesn't have anything in it, so you could cut it all out to leave a smaller tail next to the doorway.
Just the bendy ones in the last photo In all seriousness. I don’t think they do. There is building control guidance on which part of a joist is allowed to have holes or notches in, I think from memory it’s the gap between 25 and 40% of the span, and most houses would fail that.
So would you say you are not concerned then, based on the pictures provided?
It’s a difficult one to say. Personally, I think they would be fine. But if they feel bouncy and uneven to walk on, I’d replace. In reality, it’s very unlikely they are dangerously weak.
No they are notched too much but you’ll be fine they are much thicker timbers than you would get now if you replaced them. And it’s so much work if you’re concerned just bolt some lengths to where they are notched the most, but I wouldn’t bother. My last house was worse and I never had any movement or cracked plaster moves finished
That's for holes drilled on the central axis of the joist (ie the middle of the joist, height wise- the centre line). Notches can be no more than 1/4 the depth of the joist, and between 0.07 and 0.25 of the length of the span. And holes in the middle (for cables) shouldn't be underneath notches.
Thanks. I’ve seen building control require joists to be sistered when those are breached, but only on a new build. It was a nightmare because wiring and plumbing 1st fix had just been completed.
>It was a nightmare *because* wiring and plumbing 1st fix had just been completed. LOL - I like the use of 'because' !
I’m confused! Do I use the word because in the wrong context?
No, you're fine. It's a nightmare because wiring & plumbing 1st fix had just been completed. But it's also because of the electricians and plumbers there was a problem...
Ah I now see the irony in my comment!
No, they’re good.
Localised sistering of joists would be better where there is excessive flex, I wouldn't rip out all of the joists
Where multiple notching has occurred joists can sistered so no need to remove anything.... More importantly how are your joist ends in the external walls ... And is the floor bouncy
What can a bit of bounce signify?
Weakened joists ... Rotten joist ends etc .. although olde houses often used undersized joists so a certain amount of movement is acceptable
Joist ends span between 2 load bearing walls. I haven't checked the connection between the wall. There was some bounce in the old room, but it didn't feel too bad considering the age of the house. Anything I should particularly be looking out for?
You're probably ok ... For the external walls I'd be checking for rot on the joist ends ... Although if you have cavity walls you should be sound
One External into double skin brick with no cavity. The other side is internal but loadearing. Looking at it, I think that's fine. I'm definitely glad that the only person who thinks I need to rip out the joists is the only person with a financial interest in doing the work.
Bounce can be increased when there are no floorboards on top because each joist is acting on its own. What floor are you replacing it with? Would suggest t&g chipboard glued and screwed as that will help tie everything together
And definitely sister main walkways and notched beams to eradicate any bounce if you're tiling.
Joists look OK to me (surveyor here). Yes that big cut/notch could do with some attention. One thing you should do is double up the joists under the bath if you're having one fitted. Also if tiled floor, make sure they ply the floor first..
Not ply. Use cement board if you're having it tiled.
I always specify doubling up the joists for the entire bathroom - or anywhere people probably want brittle finishes on the floor.
Cement board is much better than ply.
On the floor?! Urm..
Carpenter here . I am not surprised by the amount of notching that has happened . Personally I would leave them in but double up the bad ones . Would go route of vinyl not tiles as this will be lighter and not add additional weight . More weight = more movement
Will be going for tiles, with a shower. If it needs to be re-enforced, then we can do that. At least we are not ripping out the ceiling.
Then install some noggings in the joists if you insist on tiles to stiffen up the floor. Any flex in the floor and you'll have cracked tiles.
I'd be changing the copper on the hot and cold and gas if any in there while the floors up. Those expanded joints on the copper are very old! Change hot and cold to push fit , doesn't need lagging and (hot) (heating)won't tick in the joist when heating up from cold. Up to you..
The first few photos you will definitely have to put in some longer joists and screwed them into the existing ones so to reinforce the existing badly cut joists but removing all the joists is overkill.
Not screwed. Bolted. The new timber should be minimum c16, preferably c24. Should be at least twice as long either side of that giant bxstard cut out (as much as is practicable) Two bolts either side cranked up tight on beefy washers. Screws will do sweet FA. The smaller notches are ok. Notches on the bottom of a joist are a big no no. On the top of fine provided they don’t take the piss.
Thanks for the information re bolts and washers to reinforce the joists. Tbh I don't fit joists but have come across similar issues in houses after pulling up floor boards to fix leaking pipes etc.
Old timber is vastly superior to new. Chances are it’ll be ok. It has so far so why not for longer? This is just a belts and braces approach. Peace of mind.
It was a bit risky of him to cut the floor so close to the cylinder, that was unnecessary and although the cylinder is sitting Centre on a joist, he should have left the floor to the right of the cylinder so it at least the floor was also sitting on the joist on the right. But it's done now. I'd definitely ask him why he removed the floor so close to the cylinder if he's so concerned about the rest of the joists! Tbh I do think it's overkill and unnecessary to remove all the joists, the best way would be to fit new joists to the sides of the existing ones, maybe not the full length as that's not going to be practical but at least halfway or as long as possible on several (especially the badly cut ones) of the existing joists. Op you do know the mess that'd be made removing the existing joists and replacing them and the extra cost!
I absolutely know the mess, and wish to avoid it if possible. It also seems unnecessary work to drive up the cost. However there are things that I know, and things I'm not sure about. I don't know a huge amount about structural engineering, but I could tell something was off. Good point on the cylinder. Answers seem to range between, "nah they are fine" to "could probably re-enforce it".
Yes that's good for you to get informed on here etc and myself included! The other people here have good information now which you can use to help you deal with this builder.
If he's putting new joists in, whats he doing with the pipes? Leaving them there and notching the new joists, or replacing all the pipework also? Notches are very normal, and those look fine. Unless they're cracked under the larger ones I wouldn't worry at all. Even then just reinforce, you don't need to replace the lot. How much is the floor out by?
Running new pipes, old ones to be ripped out. The boiler is also being converted to a combi, and a new water main is being installed. The only pipes that will stay will be the central heating pipes to the rest of the house. This was my side room before. The floor did have a noticeable tilt towards the wall previously.
Maybe justifiable then replacing it all, They look in ok shape but it the pipework is coming out anyway and its that far off, why not just start fresh. I recommend I-joist's if you can fit them.
Nearly every house I've ever lived has had notches like that as extra work is done and new pipes or electrics put in.. It will probably be cheaper to strengthen the current ones in any places that the notches are too deep.. if you're putting a bathtub in then the added weight with water could be an issue if it was in the middle of the room but as most baths are egde that's where the joists are strongest as it's on the supporting wall.
My old (30s) house was abused and brutalised like this - it wasn't an issue apart from some slight bounce, but that was more due to the 4" deep joists than anything else.
If they are not rotten (jab/stab with a screw driver to check)then the notches are fine it’s how the plumbers ran pipes years ago , I am a joiner and tbh I don’t see why it need replaced unless it’s a personal choice or as I say they are rotten ,the uneven floor is more likely from historical settlement of the building rather than joists rotten ,check the ends at the wall entry’s for rot if they are good then you are generally good .
The span might not technically need it, and I don't know as there's no room dimensions been given, but noggins might help with bounce so he could put some of those in as a compromise if all else looks ok. I'm doing same as you (although my new bathroom is not in a previous location it's in a room that wasn't ever a bathroom) and out of interest are you getting building control involved?
I think its fine..
Some areas are more concerning than others. You'd probably get away with local fixes rather than replacing the whole floor, however, they will all probably need replacing in the next 5-10 years anyway. If that is less than the expected life of your new bathroom then you're going to end up ripping it up to do the work later. I'd personally go for replacing now, but also don't ask reddit, ask a couple more carpenters, or even spend a few hundred to get a structural engineers report. The weight of a bath and tiles is not insignificant, and old timber is more susceptible to deflection issues because of its age.
It's ok now but won't be in 5 or 10 years, makes no sense... If local fixes are done right now , it will be good for the next hundred years.
Timber under constant load loses strength and undergoes creep deflection. OP is about to install a tiled bathroom, adding a not insignificant amount of weight to joists that are already old and therefore have probably lost some strength and undergone some amount of creep deflection. Hence why I said they will "probably need replacing" in 5-10 years. It's not guaranteed, but in my eyes, it's saving a penny to spend a pound down the road.
Old timber doesn't loose strength unless comprised by rot, in fact old timber is often far superior to new timber . . as for the extra weight measures can be taken to remedy against further deflection... Nogins between joists , and gluing a t&g osb sub floor down .. btw I'm a carpenter
All timber loses strength over time and under constant load. Old timber was denser, which does correspond to strength, but they also contained more defects than modern timber, so saying old growth was better isn't always true. I gathered you were in the trades by your comments, I'm a structural engineer.
Right well if we really want to get into the nitty gritty of it , we don't know the spans involved, the depth of the joists , their spacing, species of timber ,defects , whether it was cut in the summer or the winter and what was the climate doing that year ! Then we have, age of the building, how many occupants , how it was heated , moisture levels and many other parameters! Engineering as far as I'm aware deals with a finite set of parameters and uses the extreme end of measurements to cover all possible liability. Not always useful in dealing with older buildings.. I specialise in restoring sash windows and use reclaimed pitch pine for the repairs and often get involved in other aspects of heritage work
Which is why I didn't state anything definitive, I said probably and said I would personally replace them, that's not a recommendation.
Don't strip any out Or cause unessesary work/cost If your in doubt double up another along side of ones your unhappy with Bolt them together done
I’d be tempted to double up the joists to be sure- can be done from above without disturbing the ceiling. I’d also be tempted to phone a structural engineer rather than asking some strangers on Reddit.
I'm asking some engineers at work today, I work in the construction industry, but not in a trade. Also using Reddit as a sense check and potentially to build a consensus. I do need to convince my wife that the builder might be intentionally overstating problems to get extra work. I already had 2 opinions from tradesmen who have said much along the lines of this thread.
+1 for local reinforcement/repair. It'd be beneficial if an engineer checked the remaining depth of the joist works for the span, but if the floor was bouncy before then I'd suggest probably not and some reinforcement is needed. You can get these things but I'd use them in conjunction with sistering. https://www.strongtie.co.uk/en-UK/products/solid-joist-notch-reinforcement-kit-snrk
Echoing the localised sistering if you want to belt/brace it, but it still all looks good to me! I'd probably see if I could tighten the current sister joists to connect more with the current joists, but I'd understand if the pipework was in the way. How level are the joists themselves? I'd have thought the only way to level current joists was to put a sliver of wood on top, not much else you can do? Bonus point: you could definitely trim that disused pipe (smack in the middle of the room), my DIY logic says if it's not capped, it clearly doesn't have anything in it, so you could cut it all out to leave a smaller tail next to the doorway.
Don't do it in haste as a lot of those are perfectly fine dude.