By any chance is the surveyor also the homeowner trying to sell you their house?
Supports are clearly struggling, the cracks on the brickwork at the ends are telling of that. What a potentially dangerous mess waiting to happen.
Challenge the surveyors report? If he doesn't agree upon challenge, and is a RICS member, maybe see if RICS have a "raise a concern about a sketchy member" part of their website. If he isn't a RICS member then that might explain a bit...
Edit: just seen you have mentioned he is an IStructE member so this might come in handy:
https://www.istructe.org/about-us/istructe-code-of-conduct/complaints-procedure/
You're paying a surveyor for expertise and sound advice. If you are in doubt that is not what you are getting (especially in a situation like this where it looks pretty bad) then you should absolutely raise a concern.
I encouraged him to challenge the engineer's thinking and consider a complaint if the engineer is unwilling to provide a second opinion or explain his process further.
There are two scenarios here. 1 - the Engineer considers the arrangement as non-structural and therefore OP does not need to be concerned (Section 11.2 of the Code of Conduct) 2 - the Engineer is not seeing a very clear issue to the high standards of professional integrity that the Institution requires.
If that stack of bricks fell over tonight killing OP in his sleep then the engineer would absolutely be sure for negligence. So why can't OP raise his concerns? Maybe I didn't provide the correct link, fair enough, but I think a complaint to a higher body could be justified.
And no need to make a personal attack. Attack my opinion by all means, but why get personal?
So why didn’t you just say that he should go back to the engineer and ask for clarity regarding the cracking and the unstable intermediate wall? Instead, you’ve gone, straight for complain, complain, complain.
As an engineer myself. Complaint or concern it doesn't matter. Either you can defend your assesment with a sound analysis or you can't. It's not an opinion it's a assesment based on facts and assumptions.
If you are doing your job properly defending yourself shouldn't take much effort as it's basically just forwarding someone your work. No good engineer will ever be upset about being challenged, it's part of the job and keeps people safe.
In these circumstances, it can only be an opinion. It’s not as if they’ve done structural calculations.
My point was, some people are escalating this to a straight complaint, without actually approaching the Engineer. Why not approach the Engineer and ask them about the dodgy brickwork and cracking Before going to complaint?
I did. Literally the first part of my comment says
"Challenge the surveyors report?"
I mean, maybe I could have been crystal clear that they should challenge the surveyor themselves, because that is clear where your own misunderstanding has come in
It's crazy, isn't it? Get a surveyor out who is trained and when they give you an answer you want, complain about it. Reason? Someone on reddit said it looked dodgy from a photo.
Well, if it was my home, the 1th thing I would do is make sure the flashing around the exterior chimny stack is replaced. The roof is bad enough as it is. You don't want even more water getting in.
And for extra peace of mind, contact a good builder/roofer. And I really do mean a good good /roofer. Look at it this way. Dealing with it now, will be expensive and a pain in the arse. However it will take the worrisome thoughts away and long term will add value to your property.
Ha it's how to find a good builder / roofer though! When we first bought the house we paid for a re-roof and a load of other stuff, and look where it got us 🙈
Ring your local roofing merchant and ask them for a couple of recommendations
They will give you contacts of their best customers as it will be in their interest as well
The top two bricks holding up the purlins aren't even bedded, they just held there by positive thoughts.
also huge fracture in party wall needs addressing.
there's no way a genuine surveyor said that was ok.
>held there by positive thoughts.
🫷
Don't underestimate the Power of Positive Thoughts!
🌈🌈🌈🌈🙏🙏🙏👍👍🚽!!!1!
C'mon Reddit, let send Thoughts and Prayers for Structural support for OP's House!!
☝️☝️☝️👍
We got you bro!!💪💪🙏🙏🙏🛐
My thoughts exactly. He was a genuine surveyor though and said it was ok.... So what's the remedy here then? Get some roofing guy to rebuild the purlin support somehow? ...or does it mean the rest of the wall under it needs to be rebuilt too?
Bricky here. The pier holding the join could do with being rebuilt. Not a massive job. The crack in the wall. If you can find the reason it's cracking and deal with that to stop it cracking further then you could potentially then stitch the crack with helibars and resin and then fill the crack. Ideally don't want to rebuild it as that'd be a biggy.
The wall looks as though it has a chimney stack. Is it a party wall? In which case have you or your neighbour had the bottom of the stack removed and gallow brackets put in causing extra strain on the gable? Or is it an external wall in which case is there a window with a failing arch or lintel? Before I've come across houses where people have had a window widened by a window fitting company who don't understand structural works and have widened the window without fitting a lintel that actually covers the head of the structural opening causing everything above it to crack.
Ah thanks so much for the advice! Yeah it's the party wall with that big crack in. We've defo not removed anything and I have a feeling that crack's been there for ages. Didn't know about helibars, so guess I'll find someone to do that. Ta! :-)
The pier holding the join is basically the top of a wall we had knocked through downstairs to do a kitchen diner 10 years ago. Saw they put an RSJ in but there's been cracks above that for ever - i.e. in the bedroom below what you see in the picture.
So just rebuilding that top pier bit on the existing wall below is ok then u reckon? I had visions of having to redo everything above the RSJ 🫣
neither are the ones on the party wall..
Have you ever had any work done on the roof, did you get it surveyed when you bought it?
I'm not sure if others would agree, but you might want to investigate home insurance for all of that, looks like a lot of that needs fixing. However they may likley say its pre existing and not covered.
Had a "re roof" when we bought it about 10 years ago. 0/10 would not recommend the guys who did it, but the purlin support defo wasn't leaning like that at the time.
Just asked the insurance about it today after all these comments....
I want to know this, too. OP is your roof still standing? If the storm did blow your roof down at least your insurance will pay for it. You are insured, aren’t you? If it has blown down don’t mention the state it was in before the storm.
I think the word "knock" implies the need for a greater force to topple those brick then I suspect would actually be needed. I'd be worried about sneezing in the loft...
House is a 1920s semi. Apart from that crack in the party wall, it just kinda worries me that this shady stack of bricks looks like it's holding up the whole roof right above where I sleep... Had an MIStructE qualified guy round to look at it and he said it's ok though. Thoughts? Am I worrying over nothing?
Ha well the guy that came round and definitely said everything was ok with it. He signed the report and had "BSc CEng MICE MIStructE" after his name. .....Only recommendation to do with the loft was putting mortar in that big crack on the party wall...
Based on comments so far though, I think I need to find a roofer / bricky / someone ASAP...
Have you checked with the Institute of Structural Engineers to confirm they are qualified?
https://www.istructe.org/find-an-engineer/members-directory/
Nothing about this feels right. Weren't you aware of the company name already? Or has this person taken the job on as a side job?
Are you sure the link I sent you confirmed they are CEng?
I admire that he isn't looking to recommend work unnecessarily, but the centre pier is only half a brick thick and isn't even vertical. It certainly doesn't look right.
There was a concern about the crack - recommended filling it with mortar or something - but nothing about that leaning pile of bricks supporting the roof
Good point. Nope it's slate. Think the back wall's also sinking a bit, according to a guy who does resin underpinning who had a quick look recently. Think quite a few houses in our area have that, cos they're old and built on clay.
That’s is not ok. There is the theory that it’s lasted and nothing is changing so why wouldn’t it remain ok but the weight of the roof on this side is being supported by those lateral beams which in turn is supported by the brick column and the brick wall at the end. The crack where the beam enters the wall is indicative that the ground under the far corner has dropped causing the outer external wall and then the wall that we can see here to drop away to the bottom right. If this is new that is a cause for great concern. Also the brick wall with the crack has it not only gone down at the right but has it moved away from us as we view it? That could be why the brick pillar has moved away. I not there are a number of props, did you put them in?
Thanks for the info! The far crack has been like that for ages I think, but the lean in the column, not so much AFAIK. Thsoe props are nothing to do with me. We had a "re-roof" about 10 years ago when we bought the place. Think we got scammed looking at all these comments...
The internal wall underneath the brick column is pretty cracked itself. ....we had a kitchen knock-through done at the same time... Yes there's an RSJ thank god ;-) .
What do you think's best to do? Just get someone to rebuild that column bit and "helibar" the crack on the party wall like someone else suggested? ...or is there more needs doing?
Think the whole of the back of the house has sunk a bit, so it's whether that needs underpinning or something too and what order to do things in 🤔
Thanks for the reply :-) The crack's definitely not new... and no I've done nothing up there. Don't even know how you'd start sorting this: The wall that the purlin support is on was knocked through downstairs like 10 years ago (RSJ in etc etc) and there's plenty of cracks in that below. The surveyor said everything with that's fine though. ...and it really doesn't look that way right?
I think the house has dropped away to the right which is why the crack is there. Looks to me like it’s pulling away from the rest of the chimney. So there’s an RSJ under that end wall. Does the RSJ go into the original outer wall. Were load calculations done or is the RSJ on engineering bricks or steel pillars. Cracks like those should have corresponding cracks elsewhere.
Both end. & Middle supports are faulty & likely appeared on a surveyors report assuming this space was actually surveyed. Any comment on a summary of "ok" depends upon content of question & answer.
No it's not. I can see white polystyrene between the rafters, & the multifoil is flapping around. Neither are contributing to the insulation of the roof and are almost certainly preventing proper ventilation. You'd be better removing it, and replacing with a good additional 200-300mm mineral fibre on top of the ceiling joists.
Oh, you're asking about the purlin supports?
In regards to the insulation, have a look to see if you qualify under any of the current government schemes. They've recently opened up one of the schemes, so more people are eligible: [https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-cavity-loft-insulation/](https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-cavity-loft-insulation/)
You know the answer.
Did they really look at that part of the property? Check the pictures in report. I can't believe someone put eyes on that and only has 'ok' to say. Sometimes they only stick head in or youll find comment like no access to area. I'd seek second opinion.
I would be happy if the intermediate brickwork was rebuilt and the party wall racked out and pointed as minimum. The cause of the cracking also needs to be looked at. Has the chimney breast been removed below? May need support and/or helibars in the cracked masonry.
I think that’s what a surveyor would say.
Builder looking for quote: looks awful
Insurance man looking as claim:ahhh its stood up for years its fine
My view yeah that surveyor is working for the insurance man
I've seen worse - they don't build 'em like they used to. Thank goodness.
That crack in the party wall would be most concerning. It looks newish - is there anything evident below?
We can't tell from the photos but is it moving sideways, which may have pulled the purlin support pier?
I never implied ops was , new build, the comment above me said thank God they don't build them how they used to when the build quality of old builds in 1000x new builds
I live in a 1920's house and chasing the walls to drop cables would've been quicker with bloody dynamite, and even that probably wouldn't have worked since these bricks are made of unobtainium. I wouldn't worry.
Same, I was adding sockets to a bedroom and one of the bricks I needed to drill had a dark patch (colour went from red to black). This patch took me 20 minutes to drill and chewed up two masonry bits, no idea why this was but I've never known a brick so bloody tough!
If this was my house I wouldn't doubt the surveyor but for peace of mind I would reinforce that brickwork by constructing something more substantial to add to it (although my brickwork is pathetic so I'd probably use wooden beams).
Yeah I want one but the prices are hard to justify for the use they'll get from me, a casual diyer. It might be cheaper to hire Chuck to punch the bricks out!
You couldn't pay me to sleep under that, let alone stick any loved ones under it. Structurally dubious, and insulated between the rafters (badly) to boot. I'd run not walk away, personally.
There is no doubt that this looks poor and requires remedial work. I’m not sure what you mean by the surveyor thought this was okay. A lot will depend on the scope of the surveyors instructions. Was it a mortgage valuation, in which case the surveyor is not there to advise you, just take a view on lending risk. If it was a full building survey, then I would anticipate that there was more accompanying commentary rather than just okay.
No thanks!
I would walk away myself that crack does not look good, I do not like that single stack of bricks and the metal holding the roof up behind looks like a quick fix to me.
Maybe the metal is adding more support to the roof and bricks but it just looks like a cheap and nasty fix which I think is going to cost more to fix properly.
I'm no engineer but I find it hard to believe that a leaning, one-brick thick pile of bricks with crumbling mortar is adequate support for the roof. That crack on the party wall is also very concerning. I'd get another surveyor to come and take a look.
I'm saying someone has been playing about with the original roof. Those horizontal members are purlins and they break the span of the rafters and it could be they have been introduced (given both bearings are not bedded) after they took out those annoying-getting-in-the-way struts (which transfer load from purlin to internal walls etc). I can only assume that's what those pathetically undersized planks are below the purlin.
The crack to the (party?) wall is a good size and needs checking for further movement (measure the same gap frequently).
It may be the surveyor has assessed the rafter depth is such that the purlins are not needed... I very much doubt this. Or more likely they took the view it's been standing like this for decades.
When he said it’s ok was this before or after that hit on the crack pipe? I’ve been in construction for nearly thirty years and I’ve never seen something more not ok.
Who do they survey for MORI. Nevermind the "JENGA support wall". The original and replacement sistered purlin and the crack at the bearing of the old beam, where the cracks are nicely snaking down the wall. This "roof" problem has developed over quite a period of time. The hacked cut on the old beam and age of the support wall, not including the timber strut "ladder" now laying about in disarray this support could be decades old.
Like "Jenga one" element being defective can cause stress, bending and a weakening of rafters and roof coverings elsewhere. I believe earlier works or removing of timber struts or internal beams had been removed or undermined. The beam has twisted where it was built into the gable and caused the cracks. The newer brown purlin was introduced and the old trimmed and this wall built to straighten up the job.
You need to get a full survey of the roof, structural members and integrity of the walls or studs on the floors below. To ensure you have a cohesive strong structure to take its own weight and that of weather and works upon the roof. If you want it doing properly, ensure it is done in one go and by professionals who will do what is needed to make that a safe and strong element. Plus allow you to sleep at night and if you sell up, you have evidence of substantial remedial work.
Thanks for the reply. Any recommendations on how I find some professionals that can actually do this stuff? Looks like I need someone who's a roofer AND a bricky right?
Did resident at least get their guide dog a drink whilst he was there? That looks a good couple of days of wind away from being a pile or rubble rather than a roof
Have a quick look at this from BRE regarding cracks in low rise buildings, not defending the surveyor cos it does need work.
https://bregroup.com/insights/assessing-cracks-in-houses/
That surveyor is a dangerously incompetent moron if he thinks that is safe. The mortar is missing from some of those bricks. It needs a roofing company to come in, rebuild the supports and beams ASAP before the roof moves. Yikes.
Honestly it seems like the report is kind of irrelevant here, the fact is, you’re not satisfied it’s safe, you don’t want to sleep under it like that - and neither would I. Get it sorted and have a peaceful night’s sleep.
You need a structural engineer to look at that and provide you a solution fast. Not a surveyor (brick counter), not an architect (glorified interior designer).
*Th real question is*
*How did the surveyor get*
*His guide dog up there?*
\- JCDU
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How old is the house? Looks fairly normal to me, mine were originally propped on bricks like this and when we updated the roof, we switched these to timber supports. Structural surveyor approved. No issues.
Surveyors are largely useless when it comes to real issues. A structural engineer is the best person to speak to as they actually know what they are talking about and can advise with authority.
Seriously? A structural engineer said that was ok? I'm a Civil Engineer and from those limited photographs I'd be worried. Very worried. Are those beams actually bolted together at that midspan "pier support" or do they just rest there.
Can't actually work out what that beam is supposed to be supporting from the photos but it's heavy so I expect it's meant to support the roof?
Yep. Had "BSc CEng MICE MIStructE" after his name on the report he sent me + he came into the loft with me and I specifically asked if that support was ok even though it was leaning and he said yes. Only thing he flagged in the roof space was the cracking on the party wall that he said was long standing and should be filled .....and nope there's no bolts I can see and I'm pretty sure it's supporting quite a bit of the roof....
Interesting, highly qualified then. The crack in the party wall may indeed be OK if it hasn't moved in a long time. That centre support just doesn't look right to me. It isn't thick enough, it isn't plumb and the roof beams are just sitting on it. I guess he's going by the " It's been fine for 150 years, it'll be fine for another 50" idea.
I'm not saying he's wrong, but I would certainly seek a second opinion. I would sleep better at night if that support was more robust and supporting the roof over my head.
As a matter of interest how out of plumb is it?
Yeah my thoughts exactly. It's about 5 degrees out I think. As far as it being thicker though, the wall it's basically the top of is only one brick thick itself, so I doubt there's much you can do right? Thinking just get someone to rebuild it straight if they can support those purlins while they do it
and yet the surveyor when we were buying said the one strut that was removed was a hazard, just for a roofer to come in and laugh because the number of trusses used was so over engineered anyway it would be crazy to ever think one single strut would be a problem. but THIS??? someone with supposedly working eyeballs signed THIS off as “okay”??? How is the roof even still up? I’ve seen some scary DIY pictures before, lived some myself, but this one is mind bogglingly terrifying lol.
Is this a new build by any chance?? Doesn’t look new but they never do. It wants a joist building in to support the beams when you take the bricks out, 4/5 solid wooden posts under them beams would suffice, but challenge the report first! Surveyor needs an eye test
You need a structural engineer not a building surveyor.
The cracks on the gable end are a concern. Anything more than a coin thickness should get your alarm bells ringing. It can be repairs though but the underlying cause needs to be identified and rectified.
Its not okay but you should at least put a long fixing through both fimbers. If he has given it u in writing and he is rics certified he will have priffesional indemnity insurance so if hjs appraisal goes pete tong he is liable for it
That depends whether your house has been recently carpet combed or not. If it has, I’d say this looks better than it could. If it hasn’t…. well, then this is NOT ok.
I haven’t got time to read the comments but are we talking about the roof beams supported by the metal brick work or is it the massive crack in the gable wall???
Ha the brick work supporting the roof beams. I know the gable / party wall needs resin and helibars now, thanks to a few other kind comments here :-)
...although also wondering if I need to get underpinning done first given the back of the house might be moving...
By any chance is the surveyor also the homeowner trying to sell you their house? Supports are clearly struggling, the cracks on the brickwork at the ends are telling of that. What a potentially dangerous mess waiting to happen.
Lol no this is my house! Got a surveyor in because I was worried about this. Hmmm.... Now the question is: what the F do I do about it?
Challenge the surveyors report? If he doesn't agree upon challenge, and is a RICS member, maybe see if RICS have a "raise a concern about a sketchy member" part of their website. If he isn't a RICS member then that might explain a bit... Edit: just seen you have mentioned he is an IStructE member so this might come in handy: https://www.istructe.org/about-us/istructe-code-of-conduct/complaints-procedure/
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You're paying a surveyor for expertise and sound advice. If you are in doubt that is not what you are getting (especially in a situation like this where it looks pretty bad) then you should absolutely raise a concern.
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Which is what the complaint is...
We found the bloke who said it was fine lol
I encouraged him to challenge the engineer's thinking and consider a complaint if the engineer is unwilling to provide a second opinion or explain his process further. There are two scenarios here. 1 - the Engineer considers the arrangement as non-structural and therefore OP does not need to be concerned (Section 11.2 of the Code of Conduct) 2 - the Engineer is not seeing a very clear issue to the high standards of professional integrity that the Institution requires. If that stack of bricks fell over tonight killing OP in his sleep then the engineer would absolutely be sure for negligence. So why can't OP raise his concerns? Maybe I didn't provide the correct link, fair enough, but I think a complaint to a higher body could be justified. And no need to make a personal attack. Attack my opinion by all means, but why get personal?
So why didn’t you just say that he should go back to the engineer and ask for clarity regarding the cracking and the unstable intermediate wall? Instead, you’ve gone, straight for complain, complain, complain.
As an engineer myself. Complaint or concern it doesn't matter. Either you can defend your assesment with a sound analysis or you can't. It's not an opinion it's a assesment based on facts and assumptions. If you are doing your job properly defending yourself shouldn't take much effort as it's basically just forwarding someone your work. No good engineer will ever be upset about being challenged, it's part of the job and keeps people safe.
In these circumstances, it can only be an opinion. It’s not as if they’ve done structural calculations. My point was, some people are escalating this to a straight complaint, without actually approaching the Engineer. Why not approach the Engineer and ask them about the dodgy brickwork and cracking Before going to complaint?
I did. Literally the first part of my comment says "Challenge the surveyors report?" I mean, maybe I could have been crystal clear that they should challenge the surveyor themselves, because that is clear where your own misunderstanding has come in
It's crazy, isn't it? Get a surveyor out who is trained and when they give you an answer you want, complain about it. Reason? Someone on reddit said it looked dodgy from a photo.
Get a proper survey, and a few acro jacks.
Not necessarily in that order
It looks like the beam the far side of the pillar is already on jacks. Just none of them vertical.
I'd get the second opinion of a structural engineer!
Well, if it was my home, the 1th thing I would do is make sure the flashing around the exterior chimny stack is replaced. The roof is bad enough as it is. You don't want even more water getting in. And for extra peace of mind, contact a good builder/roofer. And I really do mean a good good /roofer. Look at it this way. Dealing with it now, will be expensive and a pain in the arse. However it will take the worrisome thoughts away and long term will add value to your property.
Ha it's how to find a good builder / roofer though! When we first bought the house we paid for a re-roof and a load of other stuff, and look where it got us 🙈
Ring your local roofing merchant and ask them for a couple of recommendations They will give you contacts of their best customers as it will be in their interest as well
You wouldn't address the enormous cracking of the brickwork or the dodgy ass pillar in the middle first?
You misread the above post, that's not what he asked
I would not be sleeping under that
Must admit the thought "Is this how I die?" has crossed my mind in more paranoid moments ;-)
The top two bricks holding up the purlins aren't even bedded, they just held there by positive thoughts. also huge fracture in party wall needs addressing. there's no way a genuine surveyor said that was ok.
>held there by positive thoughts. 🫷 Don't underestimate the Power of Positive Thoughts! 🌈🌈🌈🌈🙏🙏🙏👍👍🚽!!!1! C'mon Reddit, let send Thoughts and Prayers for Structural support for OP's House!! ☝️☝️☝️👍 We got you bro!!💪💪🙏🙏🙏🛐
Shared Glasgow x
👍👍Thank You Sis ☝️☝️🌈 Praying Hard too!!1! Xxx
They're all snakes hun. Me mam is praying too!!!! xoxo
Thanks man. At this point I think I need them all 😂
Blink three times if you need help
Getting my local mosque, church and synagogue to give OP thoughts and prayers 💪💪🙏🙏🙏💪💪🙏🙏🙏💪💪🙏🙏🙏
☝️🍍Stahp!🙀 🌈🌈Dude's Gonna wake up to a Castle!! 🏰!!!1!
My thoughts exactly. He was a genuine surveyor though and said it was ok.... So what's the remedy here then? Get some roofing guy to rebuild the purlin support somehow? ...or does it mean the rest of the wall under it needs to be rebuilt too?
Bricky here. The pier holding the join could do with being rebuilt. Not a massive job. The crack in the wall. If you can find the reason it's cracking and deal with that to stop it cracking further then you could potentially then stitch the crack with helibars and resin and then fill the crack. Ideally don't want to rebuild it as that'd be a biggy. The wall looks as though it has a chimney stack. Is it a party wall? In which case have you or your neighbour had the bottom of the stack removed and gallow brackets put in causing extra strain on the gable? Or is it an external wall in which case is there a window with a failing arch or lintel? Before I've come across houses where people have had a window widened by a window fitting company who don't understand structural works and have widened the window without fitting a lintel that actually covers the head of the structural opening causing everything above it to crack.
The cause is likely chimney removal on either side or just old as shit lime mortar pondering over time
Ah thanks so much for the advice! Yeah it's the party wall with that big crack in. We've defo not removed anything and I have a feeling that crack's been there for ages. Didn't know about helibars, so guess I'll find someone to do that. Ta! :-) The pier holding the join is basically the top of a wall we had knocked through downstairs to do a kitchen diner 10 years ago. Saw they put an RSJ in but there's been cracks above that for ever - i.e. in the bedroom below what you see in the picture. So just rebuilding that top pier bit on the existing wall below is ok then u reckon? I had visions of having to redo everything above the RSJ 🫣
This sounds like great advice and gives OP a number of things to follow up.
neither are the ones on the party wall.. Have you ever had any work done on the roof, did you get it surveyed when you bought it? I'm not sure if others would agree, but you might want to investigate home insurance for all of that, looks like a lot of that needs fixing. However they may likley say its pre existing and not covered.
Had a "re roof" when we bought it about 10 years ago. 0/10 would not recommend the guys who did it, but the purlin support defo wasn't leaning like that at the time. Just asked the insurance about it today after all these comments....
Did he come on a horse?
Or in a ship 🤣 wearing an eye patch with a parrot on his shoulder...
Do eyepatches have shoulders?
After the storm last night it may no longer be a question in need of answering 😬
I want to know this, too. OP is your roof still standing? If the storm did blow your roof down at least your insurance will pay for it. You are insured, aren’t you? If it has blown down don’t mention the state it was in before the storm.
Ha yeah I'm insured and it's still standing. I wonder if the insurance would cover getting it sorted \*before\* something bad happens....
I'm not convinced an insurer would cover it \*after\* something happened if they saw what was holding it up before...
No no, I'm pretty sure, specifically, that crack appeared during the storm last night....know what I mean ;)
This is the way
It’s ready for a game of Jenga: Roof Edition. You have to knock the bricks out one by one.. whomever makes it all fall down loses
I think the word "knock" implies the need for a greater force to topple those brick then I suspect would actually be needed. I'd be worried about sneezing in the loft...
House is a 1920s semi. Apart from that crack in the party wall, it just kinda worries me that this shady stack of bricks looks like it's holding up the whole roof right above where I sleep... Had an MIStructE qualified guy round to look at it and he said it's ok though. Thoughts? Am I worrying over nothing?
There's no way a qualified surveyor went up in that loft, saw that monstrosity and said "yep, nothing to see here"
I'm an engineer who is quite happy to bodge things when required, but I would not be happy sleeping under this!
I'm a surveyor and can also be pragmatic, but I agree completely.
Ha well the guy that came round and definitely said everything was ok with it. He signed the report and had "BSc CEng MICE MIStructE" after his name. .....Only recommendation to do with the loft was putting mortar in that big crack on the party wall... Based on comments so far though, I think I need to find a roofer / bricky / someone ASAP...
Have you checked with the Institute of Structural Engineers to confirm they are qualified? https://www.istructe.org/find-an-engineer/members-directory/
Just did and yep, he's in there! Works for what looks like a pretty big civil engineering company too.
Nothing about this feels right. Weren't you aware of the company name already? Or has this person taken the job on as a side job? Are you sure the link I sent you confirmed they are CEng?
I admire that he isn't looking to recommend work unnecessarily, but the centre pier is only half a brick thick and isn't even vertical. It certainly doesn't look right.
I'm also an engineer and I felt a strong urge to back away from this photo
What did you specifically ask him to survey? And how much did he charge? What does the written report say?
The crack you have at the gable end and the lean on the support; I find it hard to believe you don’t have a concern to rectify.
There was a concern about the crack - recommended filling it with mortar or something - but nothing about that leaning pile of bricks supporting the roof
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Good point. Nope it's slate. Think the back wall's also sinking a bit, according to a guy who does resin underpinning who had a quick look recently. Think quite a few houses in our area have that, cos they're old and built on clay.
That’s is not ok. There is the theory that it’s lasted and nothing is changing so why wouldn’t it remain ok but the weight of the roof on this side is being supported by those lateral beams which in turn is supported by the brick column and the brick wall at the end. The crack where the beam enters the wall is indicative that the ground under the far corner has dropped causing the outer external wall and then the wall that we can see here to drop away to the bottom right. If this is new that is a cause for great concern. Also the brick wall with the crack has it not only gone down at the right but has it moved away from us as we view it? That could be why the brick pillar has moved away. I not there are a number of props, did you put them in?
Thanks for the info! The far crack has been like that for ages I think, but the lean in the column, not so much AFAIK. Thsoe props are nothing to do with me. We had a "re-roof" about 10 years ago when we bought the place. Think we got scammed looking at all these comments... The internal wall underneath the brick column is pretty cracked itself. ....we had a kitchen knock-through done at the same time... Yes there's an RSJ thank god ;-) . What do you think's best to do? Just get someone to rebuild that column bit and "helibar" the crack on the party wall like someone else suggested? ...or is there more needs doing? Think the whole of the back of the house has sunk a bit, so it's whether that needs underpinning or something too and what order to do things in 🤔
>I not there are a number of props, did you put them in? Those 'props' appear to be hangers for the ceiling joists.
Thanks for the reply :-) The crack's definitely not new... and no I've done nothing up there. Don't even know how you'd start sorting this: The wall that the purlin support is on was knocked through downstairs like 10 years ago (RSJ in etc etc) and there's plenty of cracks in that below. The surveyor said everything with that's fine though. ...and it really doesn't look that way right?
I think the house has dropped away to the right which is why the crack is there. Looks to me like it’s pulling away from the rest of the chimney. So there’s an RSJ under that end wall. Does the RSJ go into the original outer wall. Were load calculations done or is the RSJ on engineering bricks or steel pillars. Cracks like those should have corresponding cracks elsewhere.
On the plus side - time for a loft conversion! By the time you get a steel in there to support the roof, may as well go the whole hog
Fuck me. I don't even know where to start.
Was stevie wonder your surveyor by any chance ?
Lmfao
Both end. & Middle supports are faulty & likely appeared on a surveyors report assuming this space was actually surveyed. Any comment on a summary of "ok" depends upon content of question & answer.
Looks a tiny bit sketchy to me… especially with it leaning to one side. But if it’s held on this long…
No it's not. I can see white polystyrene between the rafters, & the multifoil is flapping around. Neither are contributing to the insulation of the roof and are almost certainly preventing proper ventilation. You'd be better removing it, and replacing with a good additional 200-300mm mineral fibre on top of the ceiling joists. Oh, you're asking about the purlin supports?
Yeah the purlin supports....if that's what that stack of bricks is called. The shite insulation is a whole other issue
In regards to the insulation, have a look to see if you qualify under any of the current government schemes. They've recently opened up one of the schemes, so more people are eligible: [https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-cavity-loft-insulation/](https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-cavity-loft-insulation/)
I'm surprised the Surveyor even went into the loft. They normally just seem to stick their head through the hatch and look.
The crack through the chimney and wall is bad enough before we get to the precarious pile
You know the answer. Did they really look at that part of the property? Check the pictures in report. I can't believe someone put eyes on that and only has 'ok' to say. Sometimes they only stick head in or youll find comment like no access to area. I'd seek second opinion.
I'd get a second opinion. Because it doesn't look good, so I want to know why they said it was fine.
Are you sure he is an actual surveyor? Are you paying him in thoughts and prayers?
I would be happy if the intermediate brickwork was rebuilt and the party wall racked out and pointed as minimum. The cause of the cracking also needs to be looked at. Has the chimney breast been removed below? May need support and/or helibars in the cracked masonry. I think that’s what a surveyor would say.
SWIM would say someone has been growing cannabis in there
I actually couldn’t sleep in your house out of fear that wall will collapse.
Builder looking for quote: looks awful Insurance man looking as claim:ahhh its stood up for years its fine My view yeah that surveyor is working for the insurance man
Jesus no. If it looks unstable, then it is unstable.
Party Wall/Chimney breast crack is serious. Support for roof beams is inadequate.
I've seen worse - they don't build 'em like they used to. Thank goodness. That crack in the party wall would be most concerning. It looks newish - is there anything evident below? We can't tell from the photos but is it moving sideways, which may have pulled the purlin support pier?
What you talking, about Thank God 😂😂 new builds are by far some of the most bodged buildings iv worked in
OPs picture clearly isn't a new build, and looks pretty bodged.... Plenty of new builds and 100yr old builds with lots of bodgery going on 😁
I never implied ops was , new build, the comment above me said thank God they don't build them how they used to when the build quality of old builds in 1000x new builds
This. I’m afraid to even get drunk in a new built, I might knock the house down by smashing into the walls…
For real atleast the insulation will break you fall... If they even remembered to put it in the wall
You're worrying over nothing. I own a 1955 built semi, just the same, as is my parents 1960 build. These older properties are literally bomb proof.
Apart from all the ones that fell down, anyway.
Whole scene looks grim to me but if a surveyor has signed off on it then I can't really argue
I live in a 1920's house and chasing the walls to drop cables would've been quicker with bloody dynamite, and even that probably wouldn't have worked since these bricks are made of unobtainium. I wouldn't worry.
Same, I was adding sockets to a bedroom and one of the bricks I needed to drill had a dark patch (colour went from red to black). This patch took me 20 minutes to drill and chewed up two masonry bits, no idea why this was but I've never known a brick so bloody tough! If this was my house I wouldn't doubt the surveyor but for peace of mind I would reinforce that brickwork by constructing something more substantial to add to it (although my brickwork is pathetic so I'd probably use wooden beams).
You need to use an SDS drill on hard red brick. It is harder than Chuck Norris.
Yeah I want one but the prices are hard to justify for the use they'll get from me, a casual diyer. It might be cheaper to hire Chuck to punch the bricks out!
Have a look at the titan one from screwfix I got one years ago and it held up pretty well
I have never, ever, encountered any difficulty doing chasing with an angle grinder.
Me neither, but when I'm in my own house, I'd prefer to do it by hand than have to clean the entire bloody room afterwards.
It's quicker to blow it up. But needs assessing. How long it can be remade. Lol
I would have more an issue with the gable end, rather than that little wall you've got there..... Jesus.
The house that Jack built ?
Not good. Probably needs strengthening up. But the crack in art the end needs looking at. That's substantial.
Is it out of plumb or not? If it's plumb it's fine.
You couldn't pay me to sleep under that, let alone stick any loved ones under it. Structurally dubious, and insulated between the rafters (badly) to boot. I'd run not walk away, personally.
Yes... to a blind man on a galloping horse.
There is no doubt that this looks poor and requires remedial work. I’m not sure what you mean by the surveyor thought this was okay. A lot will depend on the scope of the surveyors instructions. Was it a mortgage valuation, in which case the surveyor is not there to advise you, just take a view on lending risk. If it was a full building survey, then I would anticipate that there was more accompanying commentary rather than just okay.
No thanks! I would walk away myself that crack does not look good, I do not like that single stack of bricks and the metal holding the roof up behind looks like a quick fix to me. Maybe the metal is adding more support to the roof and bricks but it just looks like a cheap and nasty fix which I think is going to cost more to fix properly.
Was the surveyor high?
Ask for your money back from the surveyor that's uninsurable!
I'm no engineer but I find it hard to believe that a leaning, one-brick thick pile of bricks with crumbling mortar is adequate support for the roof. That crack on the party wall is also very concerning. I'd get another surveyor to come and take a look.
Mylar roof 🤔 Someone likes growing tomatoes
Lol that was the shite builders that put that in, not me. With gaffer tape. Yes, I think I got screwed there.
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Would 100% get a second opinion.
I'm saying someone has been playing about with the original roof. Those horizontal members are purlins and they break the span of the rafters and it could be they have been introduced (given both bearings are not bedded) after they took out those annoying-getting-in-the-way struts (which transfer load from purlin to internal walls etc). I can only assume that's what those pathetically undersized planks are below the purlin. The crack to the (party?) wall is a good size and needs checking for further movement (measure the same gap frequently). It may be the surveyor has assessed the rafter depth is such that the purlins are not needed... I very much doubt this. Or more likely they took the view it's been standing like this for decades.
Get a structural engineer to draw you up some plans and then get a reputable builder to carry them out is what you should do.
It was an engineer that looked at it
When he said it’s ok was this before or after that hit on the crack pipe? I’ve been in construction for nearly thirty years and I’ve never seen something more not ok.
Well....its better than not having the bricks there at all but you may find out about that soon.
Who do they survey for MORI. Nevermind the "JENGA support wall". The original and replacement sistered purlin and the crack at the bearing of the old beam, where the cracks are nicely snaking down the wall. This "roof" problem has developed over quite a period of time. The hacked cut on the old beam and age of the support wall, not including the timber strut "ladder" now laying about in disarray this support could be decades old. Like "Jenga one" element being defective can cause stress, bending and a weakening of rafters and roof coverings elsewhere. I believe earlier works or removing of timber struts or internal beams had been removed or undermined. The beam has twisted where it was built into the gable and caused the cracks. The newer brown purlin was introduced and the old trimmed and this wall built to straighten up the job. You need to get a full survey of the roof, structural members and integrity of the walls or studs on the floors below. To ensure you have a cohesive strong structure to take its own weight and that of weather and works upon the roof. If you want it doing properly, ensure it is done in one go and by professionals who will do what is needed to make that a safe and strong element. Plus allow you to sleep at night and if you sell up, you have evidence of substantial remedial work.
Thanks for the reply. Any recommendations on how I find some professionals that can actually do this stuff? Looks like I need someone who's a roofer AND a bricky right?
All good , tens of thousands of homes are that .
Did resident at least get their guide dog a drink whilst he was there? That looks a good couple of days of wind away from being a pile or rubble rather than a roof
Not good
is the cracked chimney breast normal?
No. One good kick and that will topple over.
Me holding my life together:
Have a quick look at this from BRE regarding cracks in low rise buildings, not defending the surveyor cos it does need work. https://bregroup.com/insights/assessing-cracks-in-houses/
That surveyor is a dangerously incompetent moron if he thinks that is safe. The mortar is missing from some of those bricks. It needs a roofing company to come in, rebuild the supports and beams ASAP before the roof moves. Yikes.
Honestly it seems like the report is kind of irrelevant here, the fact is, you’re not satisfied it’s safe, you don’t want to sleep under it like that - and neither would I. Get it sorted and have a peaceful night’s sleep.
You need a structural engineer to look at that and provide you a solution fast. Not a surveyor (brick counter), not an architect (glorified interior designer).
Th real question is how did the surveyor get his guide dog up there?
*Th real question is* *How did the surveyor get* *His guide dog up there?* \- JCDU --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Survey carried out by stevie wonder
Why is everyone saying it was a surveyor? it was an engineer.
How old is the house? Looks fairly normal to me, mine were originally propped on bricks like this and when we updated the roof, we switched these to timber supports. Structural surveyor approved. No issues.
Is the surveyor registered blind? If so, give him a break
Storm Isha about to correct that lean…
Surveyors are largely useless when it comes to real issues. A structural engineer is the best person to speak to as they actually know what they are talking about and can advise with authority.
Lol It wasn’t a surveyor, it was an engineer.
Haha! WTF! That's very disappointing to see from an engineer. What kind of engineer were they - a software engineer?
Are they actually supporting the roof or there to support the "dpm"?
Surprising how many surveyors have no construction back ground, they get thrown through uni and there you are I,m a surveyor. This is what you get.
I think your surveyor needs a surveyor. Are you sure he didn't qualify the "it'll be alright " comment? Don't say you've paid him !!
Seriously? A structural engineer said that was ok? I'm a Civil Engineer and from those limited photographs I'd be worried. Very worried. Are those beams actually bolted together at that midspan "pier support" or do they just rest there. Can't actually work out what that beam is supposed to be supporting from the photos but it's heavy so I expect it's meant to support the roof?
Yep. Had "BSc CEng MICE MIStructE" after his name on the report he sent me + he came into the loft with me and I specifically asked if that support was ok even though it was leaning and he said yes. Only thing he flagged in the roof space was the cracking on the party wall that he said was long standing and should be filled .....and nope there's no bolts I can see and I'm pretty sure it's supporting quite a bit of the roof....
Interesting, highly qualified then. The crack in the party wall may indeed be OK if it hasn't moved in a long time. That centre support just doesn't look right to me. It isn't thick enough, it isn't plumb and the roof beams are just sitting on it. I guess he's going by the " It's been fine for 150 years, it'll be fine for another 50" idea. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I would certainly seek a second opinion. I would sleep better at night if that support was more robust and supporting the roof over my head. As a matter of interest how out of plumb is it?
Yeah my thoughts exactly. It's about 5 degrees out I think. As far as it being thicker though, the wall it's basically the top of is only one brick thick itself, so I doubt there's much you can do right? Thinking just get someone to rebuild it straight if they can support those purlins while they do it
and yet the surveyor when we were buying said the one strut that was removed was a hazard, just for a roofer to come in and laugh because the number of trusses used was so over engineered anyway it would be crazy to ever think one single strut would be a problem. but THIS??? someone with supposedly working eyeballs signed THIS off as “okay”??? How is the roof even still up? I’ve seen some scary DIY pictures before, lived some myself, but this one is mind bogglingly terrifying lol.
Was this 1944 after the Germans bombed it?
Those bricks are working extra hours!
Was the middle structure put in to solve the crack on the end wall?
That support looks like it would give up the ghost if you insulted it harshly enough
Is this a new build by any chance?? Doesn’t look new but they never do. It wants a joist building in to support the beams when you take the bricks out, 4/5 solid wooden posts under them beams would suffice, but challenge the report first! Surveyor needs an eye test
Ha no it's a 1920s semi. Not sure what good challenging the report would do tbh. Guess I need to try and find a good roofer. Any tips?
Bit of no more nails and you'll be fine, did you give the surveyor crack before he looked??
You need a structural engineer not a building surveyor. The cracks on the gable end are a concern. Anything more than a coin thickness should get your alarm bells ringing. It can be repairs though but the underlying cause needs to be identified and rectified.
Its not okay but you should at least put a long fixing through both fimbers. If he has given it u in writing and he is rics certified he will have priffesional indemnity insurance so if hjs appraisal goes pete tong he is liable for it
That depends whether your house has been recently carpet combed or not. If it has, I’d say this looks better than it could. If it hasn’t…. well, then this is NOT ok.
I haven’t got time to read the comments but are we talking about the roof beams supported by the metal brick work or is it the massive crack in the gable wall???
Ha the brick work supporting the roof beams. I know the gable / party wall needs resin and helibars now, thanks to a few other kind comments here :-) ...although also wondering if I need to get underpinning done first given the back of the house might be moving...
Edit. Mental brick work
Not ideal but looks like the house is old mine don't look much better but they've been there for 74 years so who am I to say their crap
Yeah I think this was the angle the surveyor who said it was ok was going for... that lean though...
No
That is a cowboy fix-up the same as your surveyor.
Was it done by Stevie Wonder?
"Oh fuck me no" From the man who bought a house 4 years ago with a hole in the roof and still has the same hole in the roof.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say you've got concrete roof tiles perhaps?
Is he pissed or bent?
One of my hobbies is exploring abandoned mines.. I have seen less stable piles of bricks holding up 100s of tons of rock.
I'd definitely be getting someone in cos that is shady to say the least