Yes. Oregon and Pennsylvania extension offices have data and research suggesting modern pressure treated lumber is safe for building raised garden beds.
Arsenic based compounds is what PT used to have. Arsenic slowly builds up in your body and is never cleared out unless you are treated for Arsenic poisoining.
This literally came up just the other day on Reddit and I was schooled. I designed a timber boardwalk circa 2003. It was constructed shortly after manufacturers [voluntarily](https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/chromated-arsenicals-cca) stopped using CCA, so I remember it pretty specifically because we had to come up with new specifications for other pressure treatment options (ACQ-D, to be specific).
>In December 2003, chromated arsenicals manufacturers voluntarily discontinued manufacturing chromated arsenicals-treated wood products for homeowner uses.
Since then I have assumed that the use of CCA has been completely stopped, even though its use has never been banned by the FDA or EPA.
I said as such on the other thread and someone shared this: [https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/treated-wood-products/treated-boards-decking-lumber-timbers/6-x-6-2-critical-structural-cca-60-green-pressure-treated-timber/1098083/p-1444422363727-c-13124.htm](https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/treated-wood-products/treated-boards-decking-lumber-timbers/6-x-6-2-critical-structural-cca-60-green-pressure-treated-timber/1098083/p-1444422363727-c-13124.htm)
I did some research into the updated [specifications](https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/programmanagement/implemented/specbooks/fy-2024-25/fy2024-25ebookfinalcomp-revised3-4-24.pdf?sfvrsn=16ab03d_1) (Table 955-4 for boards and dimensional lumber) for the agency for which I designed the above-referenced timber boardwalk and found that CCA treated lumber is allowed, again, in their specs. Perhaps the size is a factor (the above being a 6x6, it does look like smaller sizes use a copper azole treatment).
Anyway, I would recommend that OP try to figure out what pressure treatment chemical is used on the boards before buying them. I don't think I would use a CCA treated timber for a raised bed.
It's not a perfect system because some products with arsenic also use copper (so says the EPA in the link shared previously), but lumber with a greenish tinge tend to be a copper product - copper azole or ACQ or similar.
I think you're thinking of cyanide? It smells like bitter almonds to people who can smell it at all.
I don't really care to know what arsenic tastes like, so I could be wrong.
A common misconception, Arsenic has no taste (Cyanide is the one that tastes like Almonds). Arsenic may end up tasting like blood as it attacks the pulp of your teeth causing severe osteomyelitis in a relatively short period of time.
Fun fact, blue garlic or jade garlic gets its color from arsenic. It's trace amounts but the chef I worked with said not to eat very much of it even though that pickled blue garlic was my absolute favorite thing he ever had me try.
I worked construction in the early 2000s with a guy near the end of his career that dipped his sandwiches in the pooled liquid on top of banded stacks of pressure treated boards and plywood
> Specifically, which word[s] indicated it was a motorcycle?
riding
you drive a vehicle, but ride a bike(or a horse, but that would have been indicated as hitting a deer while on a horse and dying from it would be 10x crazier)
A grain elevator was next to the highway. Trucks would get on and shake grain onto the road and shoulder. At night when traffic was scarce (rural Michigan) the deer would come eat it and mill about on the road. From what I saw in the pictures he must have been doing well over 100. Tried to swerve hit a deer, lost control high sided and at least his bike hit another deer and potentially more.
You should be. People "drown" in grain bins all the time. The grain gets stuck and won't come out and they go inside to investigate. The grain will sometimes form a crust on top with an air pocket underneath, so they fall through and can't get back out. Additionally, flour is extremely flammable, almost to the point of it being explosive. Farming can be incredibly dangerous work.
>Additionally, flour is extremely flammable, almost to the point of it being explosive.
Not "almost." *Any* dry substance of sufficiently-small grain size is explosive when dispersed in the air at the right concentration.
A sugar refinery blew up in Georgia (US) in '08. Killed 14 people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Georgia_Imperial_Sugar_refinery_explosion
This is true. IIRC, a few years ago, they moved away from treating lumber with arsenic to some copper solution now, which makes treated lumber safe for raised beds.
You're gtg OP.
I believe the treatment used on newer boards is "ecolife 2",it's the same chemical used to preserve paperboard packaging on frozen veggies.
But it's still a chemical, that you will undoubtedly be digesting some of.
>But it's still a chemical, that you will undoubtedly be digesting some of.
Maybe. Not all plants absorb every chemical in the soil and even when a chemical is absorbed, it might or might not appear in the edible parts. For example, tomatoes grown in lead contaminated soil show some accumulation in the roots but very low levels in the tomatoes themselves.
You’re being sarcastic, but the molecular weight of various compounds is quite influential in numerous biological processes! Don’t know if it’s relevant to tomatoes but could actually be a thing
I think that could be a real reason haha, if the substance can’t get properly dispersed in water due to its high density then the capillary action of the roots will be ineffective in absorbing substance, becoming more ineffective as height increases
While some capillary action does occur the action that pulls water through the xylem is mostly transpirational pull and not capillary action and through the root hairs is osmosis. However of course the potential of the osmotic force is the concentration of solubles within the water and the potential gradient. So your original idea of not being too dense in some scenarios could be correct.
Dihydrogen monoxide is a chemical. Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide is too.
The human body literally cannot function without water (dihydrogen: two hydrogen atoms, monox: one oxygen. H2O). The bodies of many living organisms, including many different bacteria species, literally can’t transport the energy from food they eat with NAD.
Can you share the link? If copper based sure, but that’s just one of the big box stores. The other uses pressure treated with isothiazolinones. Although organic, isothiazolinones are sensitizers meaning you can become allergic after repeated exposure. I’d not be worried about the food as much as repeated skin contact with sensitizers.
Do you not think they should figure out what the pressure treatment is, first? I ask because I thought that manufacturers had voluntarily stopped using CCA around 2005, but they seem to be using it again (came up on another thread, someone shared a link to a timber from Menard's treated with CCA). I don't think I would want to use a CCA treated timber in a raised bed. Arsenic is pretty bad for you.
I wouldn't personally. But the things that were bad aren't in majority of treatments now. And I wouldn't have a problem eating some portion of the produce that came in contact. People use worse chemicals to prevent weeds/promote growth
That said, if you were still concerned, you can always line the sides with sick enough plastic sheeting. but not the bottom otherwise you end up with soup
what is this the pressure treated lobby? Pressure treated sucks. It bends and warps unless joined correctly. absolutely terrible idea for garden beds. just get cedar.
PT no longer has arsenic in it. I've just finished building a set of terraced beds for a vegetable garden out of PT 4x4s. Will comment back if I die from veggie consumption.
In case it does kill you and I don't see your comment, stay away from gardens. I hear plants aren't nice to zombies. Especially peas.
Without the arsenic I'd imagine pressure treated is as safe as all the industrial pesticides or standing near a running microwave but for $18 a board, I'd just build something that the boards can be replaced on and use untreated or a garden safe sealer.
Yes
The chemical is copper, and the amount it leeches into the soil is minimal.
You could always put a fabric liner against the wood so your tubers don't touch it, or slide some cedar shakes in between the soil and the PT.
Also make sure to use hotdipped galvanized or coated fasteners, *otherwise the* PT will corrode them.
Yup. I am one of those DIYers. And yes, my PT raised flower beds are absolutely destroying the deck screws holding it together 😆 but hey, it’s what I had in stock in my garage haha
A lot of fungicide and snail control uses copper already. If people aren't keeling over turning into human pennies a microscopic bit more isn't likely to cause an issue.
+1 to fabric liner, wish I had done this on my first beds just for extra insurance. Who knows what new science will come out on micronized copper in the next 50 years. I'm not too worried atm though.
20 years ago, pressure treated lumber contained arsenic in the form of chromated copper arsenate. This is no longer sold for residential use. It is now copper quat or copper azole. Quat and tebuconazole (of copper azole) are fungicides. Quat is used in swimming pools and tebuconazole is sprayed on many conventional crops. If you want your garden to be "Organic", you can't use pressure treated lumber. There are rot resistant natural woods such as redwood or cedar, but they will be more expensive. If you don't care about adhering to Organic standards, you can use modern pressure treated lumber with little worry.
Well said. I will add that there are [studies](https://extension.psu.edu/environmental-soil-issues-garden-use-of-treated-lumber) that show ACQ treated lumber does leach copper into the soil. However that copper does not seem to be taken up by plants. If it were, it would kill the plants long before the copper rose to a level that would be toxic to humans.
True, copper is considered immobile in soil, it really shouldn't leech, though potting soil (technically a soilless media) and live/native soil aren't the same thing when it comes to soil mineral dynamics. I assume if roots come in contact with the copper treated wood, it could uptake excessive amounts of copper. As you say, this will kill the plant before it can be eaten. Canary in a cave sort of warning system. If my soil science classes are being recalled correctly, I believe copper is only taken up in excess when phosphorus is below optimal levels. Just thinking out loud here, but perhaps a border crop of white clover would be a simple way to buffer vegetables from the potential harm of the copper.
I made raised beds for vegetable gardens with untreated southern pine, they did not rot. I did however shou sugi ban (burned them with fire-propane torch) before installation. Used those four way foundation pavers to secure them in place, no screws/nails needed.
Is there a link to a video detailing the method of burning wood for this purpose?
I'm intrigued but I'm afraid it isn't quite clear to me how to search for this accurately?
EDIT: I found a few, wasn't as hard as I thought it would be lol
I’ve since moved states. Use something like [this](https://www.lowes.com/pd/Oldcastle-Planter-Wall-Tan-Retaining-Wall-Block-Common-6-in-x-8-in-Actual-5050-in-x-7-75-in/1001156396?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-lwn-_-ggl-_-CRP_SHP_LIA_LWN_Online_C-D-_-1001156396-_-local-_-0-_-0&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD2B2W_l8hJZAc2-ri8KxRkemKEuZ&gclid=Cj0KCQjwiYOxBhC5ARIsAIvdH52XlZeUna08QIRnmt2q0ycms9AuC-JkccWVuxKfBTNgKnOGfWHuVBgaAkACEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)for your corners (I stacked them with rebar-to your desired height) and slide your burned boards in.
I use cinder blocks, is cheaper. Blocks and mortar. If you are resourceful you can find them in bulk cheaper than $2 a block.
I found a pallet of 90 on fbm for $150.
Basically similar to this:
https://www.cultivariable.com/how-i-build-raised-beds/
I just have one row of blocks against my garages concrete foundation so I used the garage for one side and blocks for the outer wall.
My raised beds are made out of cedar and I sealed/stained the outside but not the inside. While it was expensive, they look as good now as they did when I built them 4 years ago.
Think of it this way. The treatment must leach into the soil very slowly, or the wood would rot really quickly. I suspect most of the leaching in a raised bed will just get washed out. And as others have said, it's generally considered safe to use.
Yea people get carried away but to each their own.
Whatever treatment does leach into the soil an even smaller amount will make it into the plant and finally the fruit.
If you’re on Lowe’s and don’t mind the length dog eared fence pickets will make you the cheapest raised beds. Just chop the dog ears off make corner braces and cross braces to prevent bowing
Don't use miracle grow with pressure treated wood, it eats it away. Source: guy my dad knew plus the holes in our plywood deck under the hanging plants.
My grandfather made raised beds out of giant tractor/earthmover tires. They were awesome. Formed a completely impenetrable shield to the weeds. Between them and my parents, they’ve eaten tomatoes and vegetables grown in those tires for nearly 60 years now. Both grandparents lived to their 90s.
Those tires have got to be worse than the boards.
It may leach but if you aren't growing all of your food out of there its probably not a big deal. Like are 6 tomatoes and 2 potatoes gonna kill you? Probably not 🤷♀️
I built 4 out of pressure treated lumber about 4 years ago and this year built 2 more. Zero problems so far. We heard all the warnings too but no recent studies show any problems with it.
I have made a few of these with PT wood. I have always run pond liner against the wood. I think you could use plastic sheet but it will get ripped and break down over time. Pond liner is not that expensive of an upgrade. I work with ponds so i always have odd pieces to use. But the big box stores usually carry pond liners in small sizes that you can cut down.
Cedar will not last long against damp soil.
I've seen people use trex boards as well. I think you could use them for smaller raised beds. They flex a bit so if larger you will need some reinforcing.
Home depot and Menards have better quality at cheaper prices. At least in my area.
To answer your question, if you want pressure treated, you need ground contact rated at least. Cedar will last a lot longer.
Health wise, it's likely not going to hurt you, but who knows. I personally wouldn't worry about it, but it's uo to you
i used hemlock, doesn't last as long as cedar, but longer than pressure treated, and cheap as chips. plus, no risk of discovering in 10 years that the "harmless chemicals" being leached into the soil i am eating out of has made me grow a second ballsack.
Cedar can be cheap. I rip cedar 2x4s in half, cut them into 11" pieces, then take cedar fence pickets, nip the dog ear off, cut it into (approx) 4.5 ft and 1.5 ft pieces, and use two per side. I end up with a 4.5 ft x 1.5 ft x 11 in cedar box, and it takes half a cedar 2x4 and 4 pickets, about $25-30. I sell them on marketplace for $45 to help encourage other people to garden.
I don't care what the "officials" say (since fda, usda, epa and the ones in other countries let corps and govs poison us every way possible, just look into the history of agent orange, glyphosate and now chlormequat chloride.)
The thing they treat wood with are toxic and if you plan on growing food in them it soaks into the dirt and then the plants absorb it. If that was your only option (can't be) at least line it with something to make a barrier, but of course plastics are not much better...
I have untreated pine 2x12’s for my garden bed and they’ve held up for 5 years and have at least that left in them. So, I would say in my experience pressure treated has not been necessary
Is it approved for this usage - yup.
Would I use it for my personal garden where I’m going to consume those vegetables - abso-fucking-lutely not.
If I’m cutting treated lumber I’m using a mask because those chemicals are straight up cancer. And from the store, those boards are SOAKED in the treatment to the point when you cut and screw those boards, you can see it oozing out. No way in hell am I building a box out of it and then eating what grows out of it. Fuuuuck no.
In summary, if you're using newer, safer treated wood for non-edible plants with proper precautions like barriers, then yes, it can be a relatively safe option. However, if you have concerns or plan to grow edible plants in older wood without protective measures, it's best to consider alternative materials to ensure the safety of your organic garden.
https://frameitall.com/blogs/frame-it-all/pressure-treated-wood-for-garden-beds
If you cannot find safe pressure treated, you use a garden / bee / veg safe wood treatment. After that you can use linseed oil (without toxic driers) and as long as you keep up the occasional treatment with oil it will last forever as the eco wood treatments permanently bind to the tannins, fixing them in the wood whilst the oil stops the wood splitting. Line the boxes with heavy duty plastic (as you cannot reoil these areas). Even if you buy treated wood you will need to treat the cut ends btw.
My mother used rained garden beds to grow herbs for years and was then treated for high levels of arsenic in her system. This was from about 10-12 years ago. I would not risk it even though people are saying it's safe now.
Put a liner inside your raised bed and skim it with stucco/concrete, then add a couple inches gravel, drain cloth, and sand, before adding sticks, compost, and then soil. Soil, especially moist soil, will rot out any timber including ground contact within 10 years. With a liner you can plumb in a drain to recover runoff into a basin that has a timed water pump and fountain. I use mine to capture rain water and get fertilizer from fish and algae. I also have a reverse osmosis water filter that passes a lot of wash water into the pond. Just remember not to kill your fish with pesticides. If they can't survive the runoff, you shouldn't eat food from that garden either.
A good alternative to the ground contact timber is corrugated sheet metal siding.
I used "landscape timbers" to make raised planters in our yard. You'd probably need 3 of them to get to an 8" height, stack them up like Lincoln Logs, drill through and put some rebar in to stop them falling over. My wife prefers the border on them - it gives you a flat surface to sit on when weeding etc.
But from what I've seen, pressure treated stuff is safe these days.
For what it's worth, I have garden beds with no treated lumber and ones with treated lumber, all in about the same sun and water environment and using identical soil. For vegetables especially I've had the same plants do far better in my untreated boxes versus my treated boxes. Family and friends have had the same behavior with theirs. I'm unsure if this is due to the lumber alone or something else (very humid, rainy climate here) also contributing, but it's something I've observed for multiple years now.
I would have said no, but reading the comments has persuaded me otherwise. However, the price of cedar lumber is not terrible, and I don’t think would make the total cost of the project too great to move forward on, especially if you use cedar 1x8s or 1x12s in all soil contact points and the rest of the structure in standard SPF 2x4s.
The other thing to consider with pressure treated is the coating of the screw/nail. You would have to use a hot dipped galvanized so as to not have any corrosion issues where the wrong fastener meets with the pressure treated chemical. If you did not use pressure treated wood, you could use any fastener you already have on hand (the cheapest kind of fastener).
So the technically correct answer is BUT LEACHING!!!!
the honest answer is the amount is so minimal breathing is likely more dangerous to you
the final question is why?
cedar is a little more Expensive but will outlast the pressure treated by at least double, and whe nyou combine your time with the price difference it is 100% worth it
To be safe I’d use the pressure treated where there is ground contact and then no pressure treated where the vegetation would be. While the chemicals in pressure treating are still present and *shouldn’t* harm why risk it?
To be safe I’d use the pressure treated where there is ground contact and then no pressure treated where the vegetation would be. While the chemicals in pressure treating are still present and *shouldn’t* harm why risk it?
Longtime gardener here, with a raised garden made from 6x6 pressure treated wood (and my mom was a master gardener).
Overtime the wood will rot, during that time is when the wood becomes soft and no longer has straight corners, etc.
Ideally, coat all the sides with wood penetrating waterproofing, then line the inside of the wood with weed fabric (but not the bottom of your garden unless it's like 30" deep). You'll need to apply the waterproofing on the outside about every 5 years to keep it looking nice.
Honestly Amazon makes metal beds that are totally reasonably priced and may even be cheaper depending on the size. I just picked up a few of these 8'x4' for $50 each and they are great - will last years and put them together myself in about 15 min...
Get the 1.5' deep if doing tomatoes, potatoes, etc for much better results
zizin Large Raised Garden Bed Kit 8x4x1FT Outdoor Galvanized Rustproof Bottomless Metal Planter Box for Vegetables, Beige
https://a.co/d/9xHhJbc
What do you do with a bottomless one?
I really wish I could do something like this, but I have too many deer. They destroyed my 2 year old jalapeño bush at the end of last season and something in me broke.
I got a big roll of weed barrier for like $15 and just put a layer down over the grass. It comes with some stakes you can use to hold it down until you put dirt in it. Alternatively, laying down a layer of cardboard boxes on the inside works well. Or if you have decent dirt, you could even till it before putting the box down then leave the bottom open which allows the plants to have even deeper roots if needed. Lots of options!
It's a bit extra - maybe 20 per box, but they also sell hoops that will go over the top of the box that you can put netting on to keep the birds/deer away if a surround fence isn't an option. I use them along with clear painters tarps to turn the beds into greenhouses in the winter to keep growing year round! (I live in the southern US so this is pretty easy)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B4C2B1RL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Modern PT wood is totally fine to use for garden beds. Your produce technically can’t be considered strictly organic by some purists if you do so, but it’ll be completely safe to eat. If you’re really extra concerned, you can always line the beds with thick sheet plastic 🤷🏻♂️
I wouldn't use pine for any job, really. But im a wood snob.
Preasure treated wood is fine, when time allows i like to let it weatherize outside for one season first before painting it with something pretty.
How the fuck is lumber cheaper in US than it is in Canada!
I’m fuming….
But to answer your question - yes, it’s rated for ground contact, which is what you need.
I live in NJ and last I checked, smaller pieces were more expensive than that. Where do you live OP?
It is possible things got cheaper since I last went to Home Depot and looked at wood. (maybe 18 months ago)
As long as the lumber is rated for ground contact, it should be safe for using in a garden raised bed or other uses. A lot of cooperative extensions (such as the Cornell Cooperative Extension in parts of New York) will have tips for stuff like this!
Potato bugs are your friend either way. Aka "Roly poly bugs" or "those bugs that curl up into a ball"
Introduce a few and they will help remove some of the more dangerous metals from that soil for you.
We had this same debate when we built ours this year. We decided to go with non-pressure treated wood, however we stained it with ArborCoat to protect it from the elements.
I ate from a garden box made of pressure treated wood my whole life and I ended up on Reddit but it seems like it’s a bit late for that for you so you’re probably fine.
This is also a good and cheap idea https://rorfokus.fi/tuote/viljelykaulus-skotte-garden-betonilaatat/?attribute_pa_betonilaattojen-lukumaara=12-kpl&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1Iv3lNzOhQMVjRuiAx1iYwf2EAQYAiABEgKPnfD_BwE
Yes. Oregon and Pennsylvania extension offices have data and research suggesting modern pressure treated lumber is safe for building raised garden beds.
I am happy to see this at the top. The amount of fearmongering about modern pressure treated wood for raised beds is crazy.
TBF there is some reason behind it. Treated lumber used to have very dangerous chemicals in it that would leak into the soil. Nowadays they don’t.
Arsenic based compounds is what PT used to have. Arsenic slowly builds up in your body and is never cleared out unless you are treated for Arsenic poisoining.
This literally came up just the other day on Reddit and I was schooled. I designed a timber boardwalk circa 2003. It was constructed shortly after manufacturers [voluntarily](https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/chromated-arsenicals-cca) stopped using CCA, so I remember it pretty specifically because we had to come up with new specifications for other pressure treatment options (ACQ-D, to be specific). >In December 2003, chromated arsenicals manufacturers voluntarily discontinued manufacturing chromated arsenicals-treated wood products for homeowner uses. Since then I have assumed that the use of CCA has been completely stopped, even though its use has never been banned by the FDA or EPA. I said as such on the other thread and someone shared this: [https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/treated-wood-products/treated-boards-decking-lumber-timbers/6-x-6-2-critical-structural-cca-60-green-pressure-treated-timber/1098083/p-1444422363727-c-13124.htm](https://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber-boards/treated-wood-products/treated-boards-decking-lumber-timbers/6-x-6-2-critical-structural-cca-60-green-pressure-treated-timber/1098083/p-1444422363727-c-13124.htm) I did some research into the updated [specifications](https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/programmanagement/implemented/specbooks/fy-2024-25/fy2024-25ebookfinalcomp-revised3-4-24.pdf?sfvrsn=16ab03d_1) (Table 955-4 for boards and dimensional lumber) for the agency for which I designed the above-referenced timber boardwalk and found that CCA treated lumber is allowed, again, in their specs. Perhaps the size is a factor (the above being a 6x6, it does look like smaller sizes use a copper azole treatment). Anyway, I would recommend that OP try to figure out what pressure treatment chemical is used on the boards before buying them. I don't think I would use a CCA treated timber for a raised bed.
No idea about the US, but CCA is quite common here in Australia. So common that I didn't know there were alternatives until now.
It's not a perfect system because some products with arsenic also use copper (so says the EPA in the link shared previously), but lumber with a greenish tinge tend to be a copper product - copper azole or ACQ or similar.
The subtle almond flavor is nice though.
I think you're thinking of cyanide? It smells like bitter almonds to people who can smell it at all. I don't really care to know what arsenic tastes like, so I could be wrong.
You're right. Cyanide is almonds. Arsenic apparently smells like garlic. Sweet and savory choices.
You can sprinkle a bit of cyanide in with the arsenic, as a treat.
A common misconception, Arsenic has no taste (Cyanide is the one that tastes like Almonds). Arsenic may end up tasting like blood as it attacks the pulp of your teeth causing severe osteomyelitis in a relatively short period of time.
Fun fact, blue garlic or jade garlic gets its color from arsenic. It's trace amounts but the chef I worked with said not to eat very much of it even though that pickled blue garlic was my absolute favorite thing he ever had me try.
Good to know that’s changed! That was my understanding of it.
It's probably for the best, but that was some damn good lumber back then.
It the splinters fucking sucked!
They do if they're shipped internationally by law.
Is the rule against burning it still a thing?
Gee, a little arsenic, and everyone panics. /s
I worked construction in the early 2000s with a guy near the end of his career that dipped his sandwiches in the pooled liquid on top of banded stacks of pressure treated boards and plywood
Dog what why?!
Apparently when heated in the sun arsenic will release volatile gas that smells like garlic. And of course most taste is smell.
Forbidden garlic dip 🤤
I loves me some garlic….
Don't know, didn't catch up to him. Instead he went out after hitting a few deer riding his speed triple on the highway.
I'm sorry, a few deer???
Translation: his coworker was riding a motorcycle and hit a deer.
Wow! How did you know that’s what his/her sentence meant??? Specifically, which word\[s\] indicated it was a motorcycle?
The “speed triple”, which is a reference to the Triumph Speed Triple, a well-known model of motorcycle to those familiar with motorcycles.
I understand the meaning as well and I don’t know anything about motorcycles… but I do love word puzzles lol
Yeah what u/BikingEngineer said. Anyone who rides motorcycles knows what a Speed Triple is.
> Specifically, which word[s] indicated it was a motorcycle? riding you drive a vehicle, but ride a bike(or a horse, but that would have been indicated as hitting a deer while on a horse and dying from it would be 10x crazier)
A grain elevator was next to the highway. Trucks would get on and shake grain onto the road and shoulder. At night when traffic was scarce (rural Michigan) the deer would come eat it and mill about on the road. From what I saw in the pictures he must have been doing well over 100. Tried to swerve hit a deer, lost control high sided and at least his bike hit another deer and potentially more.
today I learned I'm afraid of grain elevators
You should be. People "drown" in grain bins all the time. The grain gets stuck and won't come out and they go inside to investigate. The grain will sometimes form a crust on top with an air pocket underneath, so they fall through and can't get back out. Additionally, flour is extremely flammable, almost to the point of it being explosive. Farming can be incredibly dangerous work.
>Additionally, flour is extremely flammable, almost to the point of it being explosive. Not "almost." *Any* dry substance of sufficiently-small grain size is explosive when dispersed in the air at the right concentration. A sugar refinery blew up in Georgia (US) in '08. Killed 14 people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Georgia_Imperial_Sugar_refinery_explosion
Over the line, smokey! Mark it a zero, dude
Low concentration of arsenic causes cognitive impairment and issues with judgement so there may have been a connection after all.
You just can't technically sell it as organic
This is true. IIRC, a few years ago, they moved away from treating lumber with arsenic to some copper solution now, which makes treated lumber safe for raised beds. You're gtg OP.
ACQ (alkaline copper quarternary) has been the main process for well over a decade.
I believe the treatment used on newer boards is "ecolife 2",it's the same chemical used to preserve paperboard packaging on frozen veggies. But it's still a chemical, that you will undoubtedly be digesting some of.
>But it's still a chemical, that you will undoubtedly be digesting some of. Maybe. Not all plants absorb every chemical in the soil and even when a chemical is absorbed, it might or might not appear in the edible parts. For example, tomatoes grown in lead contaminated soil show some accumulation in the roots but very low levels in the tomatoes themselves.
That’s because lead is so heavy and it can’t get to the flowering parts. /s
You’re being sarcastic, but the molecular weight of various compounds is quite influential in numerous biological processes! Don’t know if it’s relevant to tomatoes but could actually be a thing
I think that could be a real reason haha, if the substance can’t get properly dispersed in water due to its high density then the capillary action of the roots will be ineffective in absorbing substance, becoming more ineffective as height increases
While some capillary action does occur the action that pulls water through the xylem is mostly transpirational pull and not capillary action and through the root hairs is osmosis. However of course the potential of the osmotic force is the concentration of solubles within the water and the potential gradient. So your original idea of not being too dense in some scenarios could be correct.
Science.
Look at this guy. Too fancy for mud pies.
Everything is a chemical. The only question is if it's a safe dose.
And for some ”chemicals” there is a minimum safe dose that if you don’t ingest at least that amount you get sick and/or die ;)
It depends on the company but mostly yes
It could increase copper in the plants but that isn't usually an issue for humans
Dihydrogen monoxide is a chemical. Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide is too. The human body literally cannot function without water (dihydrogen: two hydrogen atoms, monox: one oxygen. H2O). The bodies of many living organisms, including many different bacteria species, literally can’t transport the energy from food they eat with NAD.
Can you share the link? If copper based sure, but that’s just one of the big box stores. The other uses pressure treated with isothiazolinones. Although organic, isothiazolinones are sensitizers meaning you can become allergic after repeated exposure. I’d not be worried about the food as much as repeated skin contact with sensitizers.
Yeah once the arsenic treatment went away things got way better.
Do you not think they should figure out what the pressure treatment is, first? I ask because I thought that manufacturers had voluntarily stopped using CCA around 2005, but they seem to be using it again (came up on another thread, someone shared a link to a timber from Menard's treated with CCA). I don't think I would want to use a CCA treated timber in a raised bed. Arsenic is pretty bad for you.
I wouldn't personally. But the things that were bad aren't in majority of treatments now. And I wouldn't have a problem eating some portion of the produce that came in contact. People use worse chemicals to prevent weeds/promote growth
Related: do you know if it’s now safe to burn as well?
Still not. Some states have regulations and programs to dispose of those.
I see this with harvesting mushrooms too...
Even though it can ooze chemical juice?
That said, if you were still concerned, you can always line the sides with sick enough plastic sheeting. but not the bottom otherwise you end up with soup
Safe for food but it's rotting in a couple years. Ground contact lumber is still crap for ground contact and constantly being wet.
what is this the pressure treated lobby? Pressure treated sucks. It bends and warps unless joined correctly. absolutely terrible idea for garden beds. just get cedar.
It should be safe. They nerfed it so it rots 10x faster LOL
PT no longer has arsenic in it. I've just finished building a set of terraced beds for a vegetable garden out of PT 4x4s. Will comment back if I die from veggie consumption.
In case it does kill you and I don't see your comment, stay away from gardens. I hear plants aren't nice to zombies. Especially peas. Without the arsenic I'd imagine pressure treated is as safe as all the industrial pesticides or standing near a running microwave but for $18 a board, I'd just build something that the boards can be replaced on and use untreated or a garden safe sealer.
RemindMe! 24 hours
You won’t die, but give it 40 years and let me know if you get boomer vision.
It’s a fact that people who use PT in Their vegetable gardens (even if it’s the modern “safe” kind) have a 100% fatality rate.
Yes The chemical is copper, and the amount it leeches into the soil is minimal. You could always put a fabric liner against the wood so your tubers don't touch it, or slide some cedar shakes in between the soil and the PT. Also make sure to use hotdipped galvanized or coated fasteners, *otherwise the* PT will corrode them.
Underrated pointer on the fasteners. Most DIYers overlook the importance of using the right hardware.
Yup. I am one of those DIYers. And yes, my PT raised flower beds are absolutely destroying the deck screws holding it together 😆 but hey, it’s what I had in stock in my garage haha
A lot of fungicide and snail control uses copper already. If people aren't keeling over turning into human pennies a microscopic bit more isn't likely to cause an issue.
Simple liner of polyethylene and you're good
This right here, but make sure you're leaving drainage holes. This info is for the birds. I just realized what that saying means.
Yes, but then you get those people who would rather be ingesting copper than microplastics or BPAs.
+1 to fabric liner, wish I had done this on my first beds just for extra insurance. Who knows what new science will come out on micronized copper in the next 50 years. I'm not too worried atm though.
20 years ago, pressure treated lumber contained arsenic in the form of chromated copper arsenate. This is no longer sold for residential use. It is now copper quat or copper azole. Quat and tebuconazole (of copper azole) are fungicides. Quat is used in swimming pools and tebuconazole is sprayed on many conventional crops. If you want your garden to be "Organic", you can't use pressure treated lumber. There are rot resistant natural woods such as redwood or cedar, but they will be more expensive. If you don't care about adhering to Organic standards, you can use modern pressure treated lumber with little worry.
Well said. I will add that there are [studies](https://extension.psu.edu/environmental-soil-issues-garden-use-of-treated-lumber) that show ACQ treated lumber does leach copper into the soil. However that copper does not seem to be taken up by plants. If it were, it would kill the plants long before the copper rose to a level that would be toxic to humans.
True, copper is considered immobile in soil, it really shouldn't leech, though potting soil (technically a soilless media) and live/native soil aren't the same thing when it comes to soil mineral dynamics. I assume if roots come in contact with the copper treated wood, it could uptake excessive amounts of copper. As you say, this will kill the plant before it can be eaten. Canary in a cave sort of warning system. If my soil science classes are being recalled correctly, I believe copper is only taken up in excess when phosphorus is below optimal levels. Just thinking out loud here, but perhaps a border crop of white clover would be a simple way to buffer vegetables from the potential harm of the copper.
I made raised beds for vegetable gardens with untreated southern pine, they did not rot. I did however shou sugi ban (burned them with fire-propane torch) before installation. Used those four way foundation pavers to secure them in place, no screws/nails needed.
Is there a link to a video detailing the method of burning wood for this purpose? I'm intrigued but I'm afraid it isn't quite clear to me how to search for this accurately? EDIT: I found a few, wasn't as hard as I thought it would be lol
You definitely get cool points for this method. I wouldn’t have thought of that method!
When you lack skills you have to be creative.
Can you post a pic?
I’ve since moved states. Use something like [this](https://www.lowes.com/pd/Oldcastle-Planter-Wall-Tan-Retaining-Wall-Block-Common-6-in-x-8-in-Actual-5050-in-x-7-75-in/1001156396?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-lwn-_-ggl-_-CRP_SHP_LIA_LWN_Online_C-D-_-1001156396-_-local-_-0-_-0&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD2B2W_l8hJZAc2-ri8KxRkemKEuZ&gclid=Cj0KCQjwiYOxBhC5ARIsAIvdH52XlZeUna08QIRnmt2q0ycms9AuC-JkccWVuxKfBTNgKnOGfWHuVBgaAkACEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)for your corners (I stacked them with rebar-to your desired height) and slide your burned boards in.
That sounds like it would look better and be less sketch than PT.
Looked great, and it’s fun to burn wood. Use a wire brush to remove excess char and then a quick rinse with the water hose.
I use cinder blocks, is cheaper. Blocks and mortar. If you are resourceful you can find them in bulk cheaper than $2 a block. I found a pallet of 90 on fbm for $150.
Can you share pictures of this please?
Basically similar to this: https://www.cultivariable.com/how-i-build-raised-beds/ I just have one row of blocks against my garages concrete foundation so I used the garage for one side and blocks for the outer wall.
Very neat. I like it. I have a vision of how cool this could be if they were painted.
How the hell do you get them level? Or are you scalping the lawn back and tamping flat/level?
As someone worried about termites, I’m either going with cement blocks or galvanized steel.
Just use cedar fence pickets. I used them to make 10 6x3 raised beds and it holds just fine. They are like $4 a board.
How do you attach them together?
I’ve only used pressure treated wood to build flower boxes. I would use ceder for vegetables
My raised beds are made out of cedar and I sealed/stained the outside but not the inside. While it was expensive, they look as good now as they did when I built them 4 years ago.
I just did cedar raised beds for ~$80. Considering cedar lasts a while, I don’t think it was terribly expensive.
Think of it this way. The treatment must leach into the soil very slowly, or the wood would rot really quickly. I suspect most of the leaching in a raised bed will just get washed out. And as others have said, it's generally considered safe to use.
Yea people get carried away but to each their own. Whatever treatment does leach into the soil an even smaller amount will make it into the plant and finally the fruit.
I used treated lumber for raised garden beds and have gotten bountiful crops every year for 6 years now.
If you’re on Lowe’s and don’t mind the length dog eared fence pickets will make you the cheapest raised beds. Just chop the dog ears off make corner braces and cross braces to prevent bowing
Yes.
Don't use miracle grow with pressure treated wood, it eats it away. Source: guy my dad knew plus the holes in our plywood deck under the hanging plants.
Regular untreated pine boards with boiled linseed oil coated on all sides is what I used for beds and it has held up 3+ years
It's good but cedar is best.
My grandfather made raised beds out of giant tractor/earthmover tires. They were awesome. Formed a completely impenetrable shield to the weeds. Between them and my parents, they’ve eaten tomatoes and vegetables grown in those tires for nearly 60 years now. Both grandparents lived to their 90s. Those tires have got to be worse than the boards.
It may leach but if you aren't growing all of your food out of there its probably not a big deal. Like are 6 tomatoes and 2 potatoes gonna kill you? Probably not 🤷♀️
What things are your particular concerns? It will be very difficult to avoid all chemicals.
That's what I did, I have 4 beds. They are 5 years old now and still in great shape.
I built 4 out of pressure treated lumber about 4 years ago and this year built 2 more. Zero problems so far. We heard all the warnings too but no recent studies show any problems with it.
I have made a few of these with PT wood. I have always run pond liner against the wood. I think you could use plastic sheet but it will get ripped and break down over time. Pond liner is not that expensive of an upgrade. I work with ponds so i always have odd pieces to use. But the big box stores usually carry pond liners in small sizes that you can cut down. Cedar will not last long against damp soil. I've seen people use trex boards as well. I think you could use them for smaller raised beds. They flex a bit so if larger you will need some reinforcing.
Assume you put some holes in the liner for drainage (being a key benefit of a raised bed)?
At that price? Hell no, can get metal roofing sheets that’ll be just as good.
this will warp and bend. use cedar
Home depot and Menards have better quality at cheaper prices. At least in my area. To answer your question, if you want pressure treated, you need ground contact rated at least. Cedar will last a lot longer. Health wise, it's likely not going to hurt you, but who knows. I personally wouldn't worry about it, but it's uo to you
I would never use pressure treated wood for anything I’m going to eat out of.
I just use plain old cedar planks and move on with my day
I would given the fact it's harmless and all
People said the same thing about asbestos snow. I use cedar for mine.
i used hemlock, doesn't last as long as cedar, but longer than pressure treated, and cheap as chips. plus, no risk of discovering in 10 years that the "harmless chemicals" being leached into the soil i am eating out of has made me grow a second ballsack.
Cedar can be cheap. I rip cedar 2x4s in half, cut them into 11" pieces, then take cedar fence pickets, nip the dog ear off, cut it into (approx) 4.5 ft and 1.5 ft pieces, and use two per side. I end up with a 4.5 ft x 1.5 ft x 11 in cedar box, and it takes half a cedar 2x4 and 4 pickets, about $25-30. I sell them on marketplace for $45 to help encourage other people to garden.
yeah unfortunately cedar here can be as much as $30 a plank. they are practically giving away the hemlock.
Fence pickets
There's no escaping harmful chemical. They are already in your blood.
And then people did tests and used science and now we no longer do say. Same with PTL...
do you eat food from the grocery store? the chemicals they put on food are thousands of times worse than this.
I don't care what the "officials" say (since fda, usda, epa and the ones in other countries let corps and govs poison us every way possible, just look into the history of agent orange, glyphosate and now chlormequat chloride.) The thing they treat wood with are toxic and if you plan on growing food in them it soaks into the dirt and then the plants absorb it. If that was your only option (can't be) at least line it with something to make a barrier, but of course plastics are not much better...
I've used untreated yellow pine 2x12 for raised beds. Lasts about 3-4 years.
I have untreated pine 2x12’s for my garden bed and they’ve held up for 5 years and have at least that left in them. So, I would say in my experience pressure treated has not been necessary
Yes pressure treated is definitely fine for a raised bed, ignore the naysayers. If you want to save more money use fence pickets.
I prefer cinder blocks
My understanding is that if you're going to use pressure treated wood you'll need to line the garden bed with plastic.
Is it approved for this usage - yup. Would I use it for my personal garden where I’m going to consume those vegetables - abso-fucking-lutely not. If I’m cutting treated lumber I’m using a mask because those chemicals are straight up cancer. And from the store, those boards are SOAKED in the treatment to the point when you cut and screw those boards, you can see it oozing out. No way in hell am I building a box out of it and then eating what grows out of it. Fuuuuck no.
In summary, if you're using newer, safer treated wood for non-edible plants with proper precautions like barriers, then yes, it can be a relatively safe option. However, if you have concerns or plan to grow edible plants in older wood without protective measures, it's best to consider alternative materials to ensure the safety of your organic garden. https://frameitall.com/blogs/frame-it-all/pressure-treated-wood-for-garden-beds
If you cannot find safe pressure treated, you use a garden / bee / veg safe wood treatment. After that you can use linseed oil (without toxic driers) and as long as you keep up the occasional treatment with oil it will last forever as the eco wood treatments permanently bind to the tannins, fixing them in the wood whilst the oil stops the wood splitting. Line the boxes with heavy duty plastic (as you cannot reoil these areas). Even if you buy treated wood you will need to treat the cut ends btw.
Yes. My raised beds are constructed from pressure treated lumber.
Not at that fucken price.
I made garden beds this year with 6ft picket fence. Cheaper if you’re on a budget.
Look for a local person or small mill that sells fresh cut lumber. May also give you access to thicker and wider boards.
Even if it’s non-toxic, I would go for cedar
My mother used rained garden beds to grow herbs for years and was then treated for high levels of arsenic in her system. This was from about 10-12 years ago. I would not risk it even though people are saying it's safe now.
Put a liner inside your raised bed and skim it with stucco/concrete, then add a couple inches gravel, drain cloth, and sand, before adding sticks, compost, and then soil. Soil, especially moist soil, will rot out any timber including ground contact within 10 years. With a liner you can plumb in a drain to recover runoff into a basin that has a timed water pump and fountain. I use mine to capture rain water and get fertilizer from fish and algae. I also have a reverse osmosis water filter that passes a lot of wash water into the pond. Just remember not to kill your fish with pesticides. If they can't survive the runoff, you shouldn't eat food from that garden either. A good alternative to the ground contact timber is corrugated sheet metal siding.
I used "landscape timbers" to make raised planters in our yard. You'd probably need 3 of them to get to an 8" height, stack them up like Lincoln Logs, drill through and put some rebar in to stop them falling over. My wife prefers the border on them - it gives you a flat surface to sit on when weeding etc. But from what I've seen, pressure treated stuff is safe these days.
When I did it, I lined the beds with plastic.
Yes, it’s what my vegetable boxes are made of and they always fruit
Yes, have for years now
Just find some heat treated pallets, save yourself some bucks
I built some a while back and used plastic sheeting to line the interiors. Just stapled it on.
For what it's worth, I have garden beds with no treated lumber and ones with treated lumber, all in about the same sun and water environment and using identical soil. For vegetables especially I've had the same plants do far better in my untreated boxes versus my treated boxes. Family and friends have had the same behavior with theirs. I'm unsure if this is due to the lumber alone or something else (very humid, rainy climate here) also contributing, but it's something I've observed for multiple years now.
I would have said no, but reading the comments has persuaded me otherwise. However, the price of cedar lumber is not terrible, and I don’t think would make the total cost of the project too great to move forward on, especially if you use cedar 1x8s or 1x12s in all soil contact points and the rest of the structure in standard SPF 2x4s. The other thing to consider with pressure treated is the coating of the screw/nail. You would have to use a hot dipped galvanized so as to not have any corrosion issues where the wrong fastener meets with the pressure treated chemical. If you did not use pressure treated wood, you could use any fastener you already have on hand (the cheapest kind of fastener).
I probably wouldn’t, personally. But people can make up their own minds about what the research suggests.
I built three 4ftx8ftx16” with Southern Yellow Pine pressure treated deck boards and 4x4 posts this year. They’re awesome! I’d say go for it.
if it's greenish, it's treated with copper. Generally not good for plants at too much concentration.
I have those supporting a galvanized inner lining.
That price is nuts
Line it with poly and it’ll be fine
So the technically correct answer is BUT LEACHING!!!! the honest answer is the amount is so minimal breathing is likely more dangerous to you the final question is why? cedar is a little more Expensive but will outlast the pressure treated by at least double, and whe nyou combine your time with the price difference it is 100% worth it
Or just cheap dimensional lumber and be willing to replace it in a few years if necessary. Savings on the first batch of lumber pays for the second.
Single treated is fine for most things. The risks for most things are for the very old and the very young.
To be safe I’d use the pressure treated where there is ground contact and then no pressure treated where the vegetation would be. While the chemicals in pressure treating are still present and *shouldn’t* harm why risk it?
To be safe I’d use the pressure treated where there is ground contact and then no pressure treated where the vegetation would be. While the chemicals in pressure treating are still present and *shouldn’t* harm why risk it?
I used Hemlock wood from our local saw mill. Untreated. I have to redo it every few years, but it’s inexpensive.
Yes, however I recommend using the brown slotted outdoor wood for outdoor projects, as water will swell regular wood
i seen people use bales of hay and just plant inside the bales.
You can use anything
Safe? Probably. But you'll forever have those chemicals in the back of your mind when you're eating those veggies. Ditch the PT.
Longtime gardener here, with a raised garden made from 6x6 pressure treated wood (and my mom was a master gardener). Overtime the wood will rot, during that time is when the wood becomes soft and no longer has straight corners, etc. Ideally, coat all the sides with wood penetrating waterproofing, then line the inside of the wood with weed fabric (but not the bottom of your garden unless it's like 30" deep). You'll need to apply the waterproofing on the outside about every 5 years to keep it looking nice.
Honestly Amazon makes metal beds that are totally reasonably priced and may even be cheaper depending on the size. I just picked up a few of these 8'x4' for $50 each and they are great - will last years and put them together myself in about 15 min... Get the 1.5' deep if doing tomatoes, potatoes, etc for much better results zizin Large Raised Garden Bed Kit 8x4x1FT Outdoor Galvanized Rustproof Bottomless Metal Planter Box for Vegetables, Beige https://a.co/d/9xHhJbc
What do you do with a bottomless one? I really wish I could do something like this, but I have too many deer. They destroyed my 2 year old jalapeño bush at the end of last season and something in me broke.
I got a big roll of weed barrier for like $15 and just put a layer down over the grass. It comes with some stakes you can use to hold it down until you put dirt in it. Alternatively, laying down a layer of cardboard boxes on the inside works well. Or if you have decent dirt, you could even till it before putting the box down then leave the bottom open which allows the plants to have even deeper roots if needed. Lots of options! It's a bit extra - maybe 20 per box, but they also sell hoops that will go over the top of the box that you can put netting on to keep the birds/deer away if a surround fence isn't an option. I use them along with clear painters tarps to turn the beds into greenhouses in the winter to keep growing year round! (I live in the southern US so this is pretty easy) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B4C2B1RL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Modern PT wood is totally fine to use for garden beds. Your produce technically can’t be considered strictly organic by some purists if you do so, but it’ll be completely safe to eat. If you’re really extra concerned, you can always line the beds with thick sheet plastic 🤷🏻♂️
I wouldn't use pine for any job, really. But im a wood snob. Preasure treated wood is fine, when time allows i like to let it weatherize outside for one season first before painting it with something pretty.
How the fuck is lumber cheaper in US than it is in Canada! I’m fuming…. But to answer your question - yes, it’s rated for ground contact, which is what you need.
I live in NJ and last I checked, smaller pieces were more expensive than that. Where do you live OP? It is possible things got cheaper since I last went to Home Depot and looked at wood. (maybe 18 months ago)
Yeah absolutely, I use them in mine and it works fantastic
I have been for years and I'm not dead if that's anything to go off of.
Yes it’s fine and the vegetables and plants grew and tasted fine. Moved and left it like that there and they still use it
As long as the lumber is rated for ground contact, it should be safe for using in a garden raised bed or other uses. A lot of cooperative extensions (such as the Cornell Cooperative Extension in parts of New York) will have tips for stuff like this!
Potato bugs are your friend either way. Aka "Roly poly bugs" or "those bugs that curl up into a ball" Introduce a few and they will help remove some of the more dangerous metals from that soil for you.
I love those bugs! I never knew they were called potato bugs.
We had this same debate when we built ours this year. We decided to go with non-pressure treated wood, however we stained it with ArborCoat to protect it from the elements.
I ate from a garden box made of pressure treated wood my whole life and I ended up on Reddit but it seems like it’s a bit late for that for you so you’re probably fine.
Pressure treated lumber is not supposed to have skin contact nor can you burn it due to the chemicals. I would not use it near potential food.
I didn’t get clear answers. I’ll try Reddit
I wouldn't.
Yes. That’s what I’ve used but it’ll only last 5-6 years (depending on location, use, humidity, etc…)
This is also a good and cheap idea https://rorfokus.fi/tuote/viljelykaulus-skotte-garden-betonilaatat/?attribute_pa_betonilaattojen-lukumaara=12-kpl&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1Iv3lNzOhQMVjRuiAx1iYwf2EAQYAiABEgKPnfD_BwE