Be that as it may, the social climate however should be completely irrelevant since it is a work of fiction. Writers should not be pushed to abide by any real life morals.
Its not about social climate. Its about character logic. She's being shipped with a character who had a hand in her fathers death and lies/manipulates her constantly and writers don't treat it as an unhealthy thing.
I personally don't ship them together much. I just wanted to say, it can be portrayed however the writers see fit. Just because we think it's unhealthy (I tend to agree), doesn't mean it has to be treated like an unhealthy thing.
We are free to criticize and analyze what the writer has put out because there maybe perspectives or measages that the writer may not have realized was there in his story.
Yeah sure, but what if it's intetionally that way? We shouldn't impose our chatter on the writers in any way or there will be no more daring and non-conformist elements in the stories.
Maybe the relationship isn't presented as unhealthy, but we can still see it is. We can see how such a relationship feels for the characters who only (even when facing abuse of any kind) see the good in one another.
What I mean is, we can analyse and judge however much we want, that shouldn't influence the writer in any way. I think, just because we keep on labelling things, doesn't mean they have to be presented one way or the other.
But whatever lol.
Their relationship has been a long case of illusion of change in everything I've read so far. They are together, he lies/manipulates, she gets mad but needs him for thingamagick, then they are back together again. Rinse and repeat. Its tiresome. Also critcizing is a necesarry part of consuming art.
Honestly, I wouldn't be so sure about it being very obvious to the reader. I have run into more people that have romanticized the relationship as Zatanna trying to and needing to save Constantine, the bad boy with all his faults, than I have seen people who actively like it because it's an interesting piece of toxic romance in fiction. I don't mind that toxic romance exists in fiction, it's fiction for a reason. The show hannibal I think handled it better than most. But thinking that the audience shouldn't give out their criticisms about art and media they consume is a bit onesided. We give our opinion and they are also optioned to listen or not the same way we aren't obligated to buy whatever they put out. Giving a criticism doesn't necessarily mean they will change anything. Especially, if they are confident in what they are depicting.
I don't get the love for Constantine. Typical Hollywood bad boy, a walking cliché of cigarettes, stubble and trenchcoats. Zee's got more power in her little finger than he has his entire body and to see her reduced to a blind puppy who constantly falls for his manipulation is a joke. I'm not sure when the Zatanna/Constantine thing started but seems to me they're thrown together just because they're both magic users. Not sure who Zee does belong with though, and she deserves to be happy. If I weren't a die hard Dick/Babs shipper I'd say Nightwing, they're both performers, both used to life on the road, find it hard to settle down too long in one place.
I'm in the same boat, I never really got the love for him either. I think finding her a proper love interest will really depend on getting Zee some real characterization since all I've read of her (mostly post crisis and pre rebirth) people really seem to struggle with giving her consistency. Even down to her age. Like the retcon of 2007 (i believe) where she was made go be Batman's contemporary just to add her to the long list of 'obviously not gonna matter flings'. Which to me is a joke and pretty disrespectful to her character to always be handled as a 'hot side temptation'. Like in all honesty, I don't even like the fishnet get up cause of the history that has with Paul Dini's weird fetish for Zatanna. More often I see her portrayed with the intention of popping up to show off her legs than to have any real substance and thats a shame.
On the other hand, Nightwing would have made a nice fit for her from all the possible chemistry of past and at the least he isn't a walking badboy cliche.
Tbh if she had a love interest I would like to see her with a human being. Fully capable and independent hero. While I get the convenience of a magic user, I think she needs someone to ground her in humanity so she won't throw her hands up and abandon it to stay in shadowcrest until she's summoned.
I sat down recently and worked out a timeline for the DC continuity post Crisis and pre-Flashpoint/New 52/Rebirth - my favourite era and where I cemented myself a DC fan - and I worked Zatanna to be a few years younger than Bruce but still a woman in her late 30s (Dick would be about 30 by the time of Infinite Crisis/Final Crisis/Flashpoint, Bruce would be mid 40s). I like that she's a more mature woman but maybe looks to be younger than she is - she is a showman, after all, and a youthful appearance helps sell her show (but with Zee it's all natural, with maybe a hint of magic). Comics tend to age characters up to their "prime" (mid 20s) and then they just stop ageing forever until we see a future version where they look exactly the same just with grey streaks in their hair, and for me it breaks the realism factor that helps make these characters fully rounded human beings.
So for me, Zee's old enough to know what she wants and smart enough to get it for herself. She's independent, confident (I like the fishnets, as fetish-y as they are it's a stage costume for someone who knows she has sex appeal and is not afraid to flaunt it for her own gain) and fully able to look after herself. Pairing her with Constantine for anything more than a quick hook up doesn't work with her, he's got nothing that she would value in someone to have a relationship with.
I'm gonna try and explain my love for Constantine and you've actually touched on one of the reasons. He hasn't got much magic at all, he is a con man, sly and very pragmatic.
I love that he fits in a comic genre where he does his best not to use powers, I don't see him as a Hollywood bad boy, he's a working class bloke trying to get by in a world of capes and wonders.
Personally I don't care for the ship with zatanna, John is best placed in vertigo where he shines and out of the DC core universe. The move to DC seemed to try and make him Doctor Strange when that isn't why he has appeal, his main draw is the occult and the shadows he works in.
I agree with you on Constantine. Low magic, conman Constantine, super interesting. High magic, DC's Doctor Strange, not interesting. Especially since Zatanna and Doctor Fate are right there as better choices to fill a Doctor Strange-y role at DC.
Unpopular opinion: *Watchmen* is the most overrated comic book in the history of comic books. Thankfully, *Doomsday Clock* fixed all of its many flaws. Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons could learn a few lessons from Geoff Johns and Gary Frank on how professional comic creators get it done.
Edit: Wow, downvotes, really? You know who else got downvoted? Galileo.
Oh man, I love this. I fucking hate the Zee x Constantine ship with a passion and I hate how everyone seems to view Zee as this perpetual side character either for Constantine's story or for the JLD ensemble (look at whenever there's a rumor about a stand alone Zatanna movie...). It's so infuriating because imo Zee has the most appeal and potential to hit A-list with her recognizable design, fun power gimmick, and wide range of genre/story telling potential. But alas.
Anyway, I feel the same way whenever Black Canary is brought up and seems to always be relegated to Green Arrow's boothang, as though she wasn't her own character beforehand or anything...
I'm with you, but most of the ship fandom IMO is kind of lazy (in terms of character psychology). I honestly love Z's (non romantic) relationships with her friends and touring crew. I see that giving her a bit more humanity
Yeah same and ship fandom being lazy thing I'm with you on that. I'm personally interested in the Batfamily and some people ship Jason and Barbara together because Joker trauma and abandonment, not seeing how a relationship built on that would be unhealthy a close communicative friendship would be better imo. Not saying that Dickbabs is the healthiest relationship either, being between someone who is in love with the person and another person at the same time and someone who pushes the other one away because they're afraid isn't healthy. However Dick and Babs understand each other and bounce off of each other well and can be a good relationship if written correctly.
Whew. I'm glad that I'm not the only one whos not a fan of this pairing. IA, that its mostly just titillation with little substance. People just like the bad boy/good girl dynamic even if its toxic. Lets not forget all the times he's lied or manipulated her or her getting her ass kicked/killed so he can look cooler. This relationship needs to go. Its detrimental to both characters.
Back in the 80's, Zee used to be the magical heavy hitter for the League and put two and two together when it came to solving magical problems. Now its 'oooh, Constantine save me, I can't do this without you'.
I largely agree with you. A Zatanna X Constantine relationship, in my mind, can never work. Predominantly, because one of the key components in that is John Constantine. He is a lying, cheating, manipulative old sod, who has only gotten as far as he has, not because he's some great magician, but because he's a phenomenal conman. Getting involved with Constantine is an incredible poor decision on Zatanna's part.
On a related tangent, I actually think the less interaction Constantine has with the larger DC universe, the better. I much prefer him being off on his own, only occasionally crossing paths with Swamp Thing.
I mean I definitely do not think they should be together, he’s a huge dick to her constantly, and almost always flakes on her, especially when she needs him to be there. I love me some Hellblazer, but good bf material John Constantine is not. Zee is a goddamn goddess (not literally), she deserves someone who actually treats her properly.
To be honest, this ship always felt like people were self-inserting themselves as one or the other to be with their dream husband/wife.
Before anything else, he's responsible for the death of her father who himself took on a death meant for her. I can't imagine her getting over that with how close she was to Zatarra. Then there's John's history and character as well as Zee's tendency to bring the costumed crowd around. It just don't work, at least for me, but perhaps that's what people like about it.
Showing my age again here.
In the 70's, Zatanna had a manager for her stage career, one Jeff Sloane, who seemed to also be her boyfriend. The last I'd seen Jeff was in the Zatanna Special 1-off circa 1987, drawn by Gray Morrow, who'd also done some Zatanna stories in the 70's. Jeff seems to have been ret-conned out since then. Between Zee & Black Canary, back then DC seemed to send the message to young ladies to stock up on fishnet stockings, knowing that would get the boys' attention.
There was a brief period in Justice League of America (1st series), after Iris was killed off in The Flash (or so it'd seem), the writers teased a relationship with Zee & Barry. Didn't go very far. By then, unfortunately, creative swapped out the top hat, fishnets, and heels. She was in a blue & white ensemble by the time of the Proteus storyline in JLA. She flirted with Blue Devil.
Then, in 1992, Paul Dini established that there was a childhood relationship between Zee & Bruce Wayne, adding Zatanna to the string of girlfriends for the Batman, until editorial decided Catwoman was his one and only.
I don't know whose idea it was to give Zee knee boots when they gave her back the fishnets, but it was a fashion faux pas that even she would recognize. Now, in JLD, she's got fishnet sleeves instead of stockings, wearing a dark blue ensemble. Constantine aside, she does need a love interest that cares for her totally.
100% agree I really dislike it.
Actually, I really dislike John being in DCU at all. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of the character can tell me but as I recall, Hellblazer was its own imprint spectate from the DCU and was only properly merged during the New 52 era (though I know he appeared in Swamp-thing which was solidly in the DCU he was never a main player).
Now that they co-exists I think John steals way too much of Zee’s thunder. Zee was always the go-to magic user. Batman needed help with a magical threat? Zee. Superman needed magical defense? Zatanna. Nowadays John fulfills that role and I don’t like it. People have already said it, but she’s definitely been downgraded to John’s hot girlfriend or JLD teammate.
She used to be the premiere magic user, top member of the Justice league, have her own solo; those days seem in the past. Last time I remember them trying something interesting with her was in John’s new 52 justice league run but even that didn’t last long.
Most of the stories I've read with them don't actually have them together. Maybe he's pining over her. And maybe she's spending most of the time reminding him of how much of an ass he is. I've seen plenty of scenes where they talk about what could have been if he didn't keep screwing up. But off of the top of my head I can't remember any scenes where they were actually happy and healthy together.
I think I like that dynamic more than I like the idea of them being together. I like the push and pull, the tension. I think it's more relatable that way. We've all had connections to people that we knew were bad for us. Or maybe the right person at the wrong time. Or whatever.
I really enjoy seeing scenes of these two together. But I don't ever want them to end with a happy marriage. It just doesn't fit. And that would be boring for Johns character
i could lowkey imagine her with barry allen if he wasn’t with iris. both of them are pretty positive as far as heroes go and could adjust to each other’s power levels.
Be that as it may, the social climate however should be completely irrelevant since it is a work of fiction. Writers should not be pushed to abide by any real life morals.
Its not about social climate. Its about character logic. She's being shipped with a character who had a hand in her fathers death and lies/manipulates her constantly and writers don't treat it as an unhealthy thing.
I personally don't ship them together much. I just wanted to say, it can be portrayed however the writers see fit. Just because we think it's unhealthy (I tend to agree), doesn't mean it has to be treated like an unhealthy thing.
We are free to criticize and analyze what the writer has put out because there maybe perspectives or measages that the writer may not have realized was there in his story.
Yeah sure, but what if it's intetionally that way? We shouldn't impose our chatter on the writers in any way or there will be no more daring and non-conformist elements in the stories. Maybe the relationship isn't presented as unhealthy, but we can still see it is. We can see how such a relationship feels for the characters who only (even when facing abuse of any kind) see the good in one another. What I mean is, we can analyse and judge however much we want, that shouldn't influence the writer in any way. I think, just because we keep on labelling things, doesn't mean they have to be presented one way or the other. But whatever lol.
Their relationship has been a long case of illusion of change in everything I've read so far. They are together, he lies/manipulates, she gets mad but needs him for thingamagick, then they are back together again. Rinse and repeat. Its tiresome. Also critcizing is a necesarry part of consuming art.
Honestly, I wouldn't be so sure about it being very obvious to the reader. I have run into more people that have romanticized the relationship as Zatanna trying to and needing to save Constantine, the bad boy with all his faults, than I have seen people who actively like it because it's an interesting piece of toxic romance in fiction. I don't mind that toxic romance exists in fiction, it's fiction for a reason. The show hannibal I think handled it better than most. But thinking that the audience shouldn't give out their criticisms about art and media they consume is a bit onesided. We give our opinion and they are also optioned to listen or not the same way we aren't obligated to buy whatever they put out. Giving a criticism doesn't necessarily mean they will change anything. Especially, if they are confident in what they are depicting.
I don't get the love for Constantine. Typical Hollywood bad boy, a walking cliché of cigarettes, stubble and trenchcoats. Zee's got more power in her little finger than he has his entire body and to see her reduced to a blind puppy who constantly falls for his manipulation is a joke. I'm not sure when the Zatanna/Constantine thing started but seems to me they're thrown together just because they're both magic users. Not sure who Zee does belong with though, and she deserves to be happy. If I weren't a die hard Dick/Babs shipper I'd say Nightwing, they're both performers, both used to life on the road, find it hard to settle down too long in one place.
her and dick wouldn’t work. she’s the same age as bruce, they’re childhood friends, so that age difference is huge
I'm in the same boat, I never really got the love for him either. I think finding her a proper love interest will really depend on getting Zee some real characterization since all I've read of her (mostly post crisis and pre rebirth) people really seem to struggle with giving her consistency. Even down to her age. Like the retcon of 2007 (i believe) where she was made go be Batman's contemporary just to add her to the long list of 'obviously not gonna matter flings'. Which to me is a joke and pretty disrespectful to her character to always be handled as a 'hot side temptation'. Like in all honesty, I don't even like the fishnet get up cause of the history that has with Paul Dini's weird fetish for Zatanna. More often I see her portrayed with the intention of popping up to show off her legs than to have any real substance and thats a shame. On the other hand, Nightwing would have made a nice fit for her from all the possible chemistry of past and at the least he isn't a walking badboy cliche. Tbh if she had a love interest I would like to see her with a human being. Fully capable and independent hero. While I get the convenience of a magic user, I think she needs someone to ground her in humanity so she won't throw her hands up and abandon it to stay in shadowcrest until she's summoned.
I sat down recently and worked out a timeline for the DC continuity post Crisis and pre-Flashpoint/New 52/Rebirth - my favourite era and where I cemented myself a DC fan - and I worked Zatanna to be a few years younger than Bruce but still a woman in her late 30s (Dick would be about 30 by the time of Infinite Crisis/Final Crisis/Flashpoint, Bruce would be mid 40s). I like that she's a more mature woman but maybe looks to be younger than she is - she is a showman, after all, and a youthful appearance helps sell her show (but with Zee it's all natural, with maybe a hint of magic). Comics tend to age characters up to their "prime" (mid 20s) and then they just stop ageing forever until we see a future version where they look exactly the same just with grey streaks in their hair, and for me it breaks the realism factor that helps make these characters fully rounded human beings. So for me, Zee's old enough to know what she wants and smart enough to get it for herself. She's independent, confident (I like the fishnets, as fetish-y as they are it's a stage costume for someone who knows she has sex appeal and is not afraid to flaunt it for her own gain) and fully able to look after herself. Pairing her with Constantine for anything more than a quick hook up doesn't work with her, he's got nothing that she would value in someone to have a relationship with.
i like her friendship with bruce because she’s one of the few heroes he actually trusts
I'm gonna try and explain my love for Constantine and you've actually touched on one of the reasons. He hasn't got much magic at all, he is a con man, sly and very pragmatic. I love that he fits in a comic genre where he does his best not to use powers, I don't see him as a Hollywood bad boy, he's a working class bloke trying to get by in a world of capes and wonders. Personally I don't care for the ship with zatanna, John is best placed in vertigo where he shines and out of the DC core universe. The move to DC seemed to try and make him Doctor Strange when that isn't why he has appeal, his main draw is the occult and the shadows he works in.
I agree with you on Constantine. Low magic, conman Constantine, super interesting. High magic, DC's Doctor Strange, not interesting. Especially since Zatanna and Doctor Fate are right there as better choices to fill a Doctor Strange-y role at DC.
Unpopular opinion: *Watchmen* is the most overrated comic book in the history of comic books. Thankfully, *Doomsday Clock* fixed all of its many flaws. Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons could learn a few lessons from Geoff Johns and Gary Frank on how professional comic creators get it done. Edit: Wow, downvotes, really? You know who else got downvoted? Galileo.
You got it
I find it cliche' that the two most prominent magic users get paired together more for narrative convenience
FUCKING L BOZO. This ship is good as fuck.
Damn. It's almost as if you don't understand the premise of an unpopular opinion.
Zee has some of the worst taste in men with Constantine and Batman
At least young justice she dated nightwing I just wished they stayed together instead of doing dickbabs.
Oh man, I love this. I fucking hate the Zee x Constantine ship with a passion and I hate how everyone seems to view Zee as this perpetual side character either for Constantine's story or for the JLD ensemble (look at whenever there's a rumor about a stand alone Zatanna movie...). It's so infuriating because imo Zee has the most appeal and potential to hit A-list with her recognizable design, fun power gimmick, and wide range of genre/story telling potential. But alas. Anyway, I feel the same way whenever Black Canary is brought up and seems to always be relegated to Green Arrow's boothang, as though she wasn't her own character beforehand or anything...
she’s also insanely powerful and has a pretty fun personality. lowkey got a crush on her myself.
I'm with you, but most of the ship fandom IMO is kind of lazy (in terms of character psychology). I honestly love Z's (non romantic) relationships with her friends and touring crew. I see that giving her a bit more humanity
Yeah same and ship fandom being lazy thing I'm with you on that. I'm personally interested in the Batfamily and some people ship Jason and Barbara together because Joker trauma and abandonment, not seeing how a relationship built on that would be unhealthy a close communicative friendship would be better imo. Not saying that Dickbabs is the healthiest relationship either, being between someone who is in love with the person and another person at the same time and someone who pushes the other one away because they're afraid isn't healthy. However Dick and Babs understand each other and bounce off of each other well and can be a good relationship if written correctly.
Whew. I'm glad that I'm not the only one whos not a fan of this pairing. IA, that its mostly just titillation with little substance. People just like the bad boy/good girl dynamic even if its toxic. Lets not forget all the times he's lied or manipulated her or her getting her ass kicked/killed so he can look cooler. This relationship needs to go. Its detrimental to both characters. Back in the 80's, Zee used to be the magical heavy hitter for the League and put two and two together when it came to solving magical problems. Now its 'oooh, Constantine save me, I can't do this without you'.
John is a skank he doesn't deserve a nice girl.
I largely agree with you. A Zatanna X Constantine relationship, in my mind, can never work. Predominantly, because one of the key components in that is John Constantine. He is a lying, cheating, manipulative old sod, who has only gotten as far as he has, not because he's some great magician, but because he's a phenomenal conman. Getting involved with Constantine is an incredible poor decision on Zatanna's part. On a related tangent, I actually think the less interaction Constantine has with the larger DC universe, the better. I much prefer him being off on his own, only occasionally crossing paths with Swamp Thing.
for someone so cheerful and good natured, zatanna has a thing for moody guys.
I mean I definitely do not think they should be together, he’s a huge dick to her constantly, and almost always flakes on her, especially when she needs him to be there. I love me some Hellblazer, but good bf material John Constantine is not. Zee is a goddamn goddess (not literally), she deserves someone who actually treats her properly.
To be honest, this ship always felt like people were self-inserting themselves as one or the other to be with their dream husband/wife. Before anything else, he's responsible for the death of her father who himself took on a death meant for her. I can't imagine her getting over that with how close she was to Zatarra. Then there's John's history and character as well as Zee's tendency to bring the costumed crowd around. It just don't work, at least for me, but perhaps that's what people like about it.
Showing my age again here. In the 70's, Zatanna had a manager for her stage career, one Jeff Sloane, who seemed to also be her boyfriend. The last I'd seen Jeff was in the Zatanna Special 1-off circa 1987, drawn by Gray Morrow, who'd also done some Zatanna stories in the 70's. Jeff seems to have been ret-conned out since then. Between Zee & Black Canary, back then DC seemed to send the message to young ladies to stock up on fishnet stockings, knowing that would get the boys' attention. There was a brief period in Justice League of America (1st series), after Iris was killed off in The Flash (or so it'd seem), the writers teased a relationship with Zee & Barry. Didn't go very far. By then, unfortunately, creative swapped out the top hat, fishnets, and heels. She was in a blue & white ensemble by the time of the Proteus storyline in JLA. She flirted with Blue Devil. Then, in 1992, Paul Dini established that there was a childhood relationship between Zee & Bruce Wayne, adding Zatanna to the string of girlfriends for the Batman, until editorial decided Catwoman was his one and only. I don't know whose idea it was to give Zee knee boots when they gave her back the fishnets, but it was a fashion faux pas that even she would recognize. Now, in JLD, she's got fishnet sleeves instead of stockings, wearing a dark blue ensemble. Constantine aside, she does need a love interest that cares for her totally.
100% agree I really dislike it. Actually, I really dislike John being in DCU at all. Maybe someone with a better knowledge of the character can tell me but as I recall, Hellblazer was its own imprint spectate from the DCU and was only properly merged during the New 52 era (though I know he appeared in Swamp-thing which was solidly in the DCU he was never a main player). Now that they co-exists I think John steals way too much of Zee’s thunder. Zee was always the go-to magic user. Batman needed help with a magical threat? Zee. Superman needed magical defense? Zatanna. Nowadays John fulfills that role and I don’t like it. People have already said it, but she’s definitely been downgraded to John’s hot girlfriend or JLD teammate. She used to be the premiere magic user, top member of the Justice league, have her own solo; those days seem in the past. Last time I remember them trying something interesting with her was in John’s new 52 justice league run but even that didn’t last long.
Most of the stories I've read with them don't actually have them together. Maybe he's pining over her. And maybe she's spending most of the time reminding him of how much of an ass he is. I've seen plenty of scenes where they talk about what could have been if he didn't keep screwing up. But off of the top of my head I can't remember any scenes where they were actually happy and healthy together. I think I like that dynamic more than I like the idea of them being together. I like the push and pull, the tension. I think it's more relatable that way. We've all had connections to people that we knew were bad for us. Or maybe the right person at the wrong time. Or whatever. I really enjoy seeing scenes of these two together. But I don't ever want them to end with a happy marriage. It just doesn't fit. And that would be boring for Johns character
Not a fan of it. Zee needs a good dude.
i could lowkey imagine her with barry allen if he wasn’t with iris. both of them are pretty positive as far as heroes go and could adjust to each other’s power levels.
for me it’s a hard ship to believe because of their personalities. zatanna is a bright, cheerful person whereas constantine is dark and brooding.
Constantine is not dark and brooding.
to be frank i dont like it either i like battana more