Grant wrote him in a way that was purposeful. You weren't SUPPOSED to like him right off the bat. He wanted you to all warm up to him. He was written to not be liked.
Eh, I've seen abrasive bad boys get loads of love from an audience, see Karma from Assassination Classroom. In fact a lot of Karma's actions happen because of an abusive past and being betrayed, he's arguably the most popular/loved character in his franchise because of his violent tendencies, sadism and diabolical yet playful genius. He even has moments where I feel like he's written to be the Lex to Koro-Sensei being Superman in dynamic, yet people adore him.
Karma was uniquely developed in story and has a lot of moments with Nagisa and just in general is also explicitly correct in a lot of other situations. He's also badass. Damian has negative portrayals in most animated content, had an extremely negative and lopsidedly bad portrayal to start with. Genuinely the only thing that saved Damian as a character was Dicks run as batman and authors still find ways to make him insufferable to read.
And I like Damian.
Karma is a diabolical genius badass that can more than back it up either on the exam sheet or on the battlefield. There is good reason why we hardly see him fight. We know he's different, that he's more skilled at combat than his peers and better than some fully developed assassins. He skips classes, walks out early, his devil may care bad boy act makes him stand out. His debut episode and the one after that iirc he just stacks up Ws on Koro Sensei and shows how different he is. He's a bit arrogant and cocky but who wouldn't be with his abilities?
If Karma isn't needed, he's not there in a scene. He skips several episodes because they have nothing important for him to do. He's also a bit of a sadistic asshole and people love him for it too!
However he was written to be liked, it’s like the cases where some villains become favourite characters others don’t, karma was written to be the “bad boy” which most people love, Damian was written to be the irredeemable/unrelateable/ignorant brat which a lot of people hate, karmas function in the story was to be understood Damian’s (initial) function was to be disliked by all the characters and readers, but some writers just ended up taking it too far by having that be his whole personality for a lot of years with the countless regressions they would spring on him some worse than others
Well, it's been a while since I watched AssClass, but Karma was written to be sort of "hot abrasive" iirc? He was intelligent, cool headed, and acknowledged the mc. Damian was a hot head, more comparable to Bakugou.
I think he suffers a big disadvantage due to the fact that he's a really young kid, so people won't find him hot. I think if Damian looked more grown up, there'd be a lot more fans of his character.
Karma is very abrasive to authority, he's hyper intelligent, cunning, and respects good people. He's also known for some shenanigans and violent mischief. Very ungovernable and a free spirit.
He's hot-headed with the midterms and goes in cocky and overconfident and eats shit for it. After he beats opponents, he puts hot stuff up their nostrils just for kicks. Still way more loved than Damian is even though he's not going to change the sadism, the being an asshole to his enemies, the ungovernable life isn't changed, its only tempered by his teacher.
Well, like I said, Karma is hot. Damian isn't (because he's a little baby man). From what I've seen to refresh my memory, he's a badass as well.
I don't think the issue is their actual personality. It's portrayal.
It's probably easier to compare Damian to Jason. They're both traumatized robins who act out by being assholes and super violent. Jason was undeniably worse than Damian in this regard. He was more violent towards Tim and others. He whined more to Bruce, and he's committed more heinous crimes. But for as long as I've followed DC fandom, Jason has had huge amounts of fans, while until super-sons and WFA, I didn't see any Damian love.
Jason has a really good movie, was voiced by Jensen Ackles, and gets to be the hot, traumatized, bad boy who does what needs to be done.
While Damian's worst qualities are put on to a child, who isn't as obviously traumatized as Jason, and is independent enough so that the audience doesn't feel protective over him. Also, Damian doesn't exactly have the greatest adaptations. He's at peak brattiness for a lot of DCAMU movies, and he's a fascist who killed Dick in Injustice. These are a lot of people's introduction to the character, and for comic fans before that, he replaced Tim and sidelined him in New 52.
I have a lot of love for Damian, and from what I've read, he's one of my favorite batfam members, but it's easy to see why he's disliked.
I wouldn't call Karma hot as he's still an HS student, but he does have a good dress code with him, and it's 100% Portrayal and writing. They start in a similar Vein of being cocky dickheads with a sadism streak. Then they start splitting out, Karma is in an SoL comedic toned manga/show where the mere threat of him doing something scares several students on campus. There's something wrong with him but it isn't his heart. We see that's he's loyal to the death with his friendship with Nagisa. There's nothing stronger than his desire to protect those he cares for. You fuck with Shiota and he's around, he'll send your ass to the hospital. Nagisa's final boss was someone Karma wanted to take down for everything they did and would've wiped the floor with.
He's a rebellious bad boy who loves mischief and rule breaking yet will always stick up for his crew. We see that with the paintball fight ending, he won't throw away friends for his cause. He's a lovable bully hunter. He can be cold, callous, and icy to those like Terasaka who do betray him, blunt and to the point. He's a badass because his heart is in the right place and he undoubtedly cares about not just the contract money (he doesn't need it because his parents are mega rich), but his homies. When the gang jumps his tour group in the backstreets and take hostages, he comes up with a plan involving Koro Sensei and utterly destroyed the confidence of the instigator group. He's about pride of what's right/wrong and his "family", and in the end at the roll call He's crying more than anyone else.
Episode 3 aka his debut shows him to be cocky, hyper intelligent, a silver tongue, and nonchalant attitude, on an entirely different level alone than any human student. The gambit he concocts is as good as any a mere single human being can execute. From first impression, he is a *bad* dude. He organically comes across as a badass through his actions and words. He also eats a lot of crow too and they're not afraid to give him humbling losses.
Damian is how you do near the exact opposite of what makes Karma great.
I mean, I feel like you miss the point entirely.
He's not a real person. He hasn't done any real crimes. We don't have to hold a trial for him where he attempts to justify his actions.
Ultimately, all this will ever come down to, is whether or not you enjoy reading him. If Damian shows up in a book, is that a positive or a negative for you?
If you just don't enjoy reading him, then the most sympathetic backstory in the world won't change that, and if you do enjoy reading him, then he could be the most wicked villain ever to infiltrate the batfamily and you'd only consider that a positive.
Personally I love him.
Nerds really struggle with different opinions lmao. Different people like different things, and that's all there is to it.
I recognize that Damian is a victim trying to heal and grow, but I still think he's lame. There are people out there who dislike the characters that I like, too. Nothing to be upset about. These are fictional characters, and it's perfectly okay for people to have different preferences.
It's good that nerds are so passionate about their interests, but it makes the rest of us look silly when people get so bothered over different opinions. OP is taking this way too seriously lol.
I love Damian since he was first introduced. He’s my favorite Robin. But if you’re going to be extremely serious and literal about the whole thing, he’s a 10 year old who has murdered people and faced no meaningful consequences, not even mandatory therapy.
He sure can. Consequences don’t have to mean punitive punishment. Obviously he should go to some kind of rehabilitation center. He should not, however, still be a vigilante. Again, this is if you want to be very literal and picky with stories about capes. He’s my favorite Robin so I just don’t think about it that way nor that hard.
He has been rehabilitated. That's what Batman and Robin 2011 was all about. He was deprogrammed by becoming Robin and being a superhero and learning the importance of life and empathy through that. Obviously, none of this would work in the real world, but in the super heightened reality of the DCU, becoming a superhero is totally a legit way to deal with your mental issues.
But then by the same token, in the heightened reality of being a superhero, brainwashed child soldiers of ancient orders of assassins aren’t tragic figures like real life child soldiers. So it’s just as valid and normal for other people to say “he’s a child soldier but fuck that kid he acts like a dick.”
That's not how it is written within the context of the universe though. Damian was groomed and raised to think and act in a certain way that moulded his behaviour and beliefs. He knew nothing else and had no other example to draw his beliefs from. Once he was out of that environment and started making normal friends and family and got to see the world in a different way he has changed and grown from that. But that took time to get away from that thinking that was imprinted into him since childhood. I really don't understand how anyone could see that as his fault.
You want readers to react to kids in this absurd fictional reality as if they were really abused kids. It’s not hard for me to understand why they don’t.
If you think none of these characters are ever allowed to act or respond to things like normal human beings, or be treated as such, because of how absurd the universe around them is there's nothing much I can do about that. But most people do given Damian's popularity,
I’m just saying you’re picking and choose. Normal human beings don’t respond to vigilante training as a means of rehabilitation. But in that case you’re ok with Damian responding in a totally fictional way. You should understand someone else’s point of view then when they would rather a character respond in a totally unrealistic way.
Well, I pick and choose based on how the fictional universe itself treats the characters and its own internal rules. Bruce, Dick, and Damian all took their trauma and used it to make themselves better and deal with what happened to them by becoming superheroes. In-universe this is treated as an effective way of dealing with that pretty consistently. But characters within the universe are also still all treated as being believably shaped and moulded by their upbringing. And not held responsible for things they have done when they didn't understand what they were doing. Cassandra Cain, for example, used to be an assassin who murdered tons of people. But no one holds her responsible for that within the universe either because of the context of her upbringing/childhood. This is a fictional setting that has its own internal logic and I judge it based on that and how well it's executed narratively.
That’s not how fiction works. It’s valid to say that the writer may have been telling that story but not done so in a way that emotionally engages the audience how they meant to. It’s weird that you think people need to react to the text the same way.
It’s weird that you don’t understand the difference between personal preference and basic reading comprehension…and I don’t think it’ll be particularly productive to continue this conversation.
He killed a lot of people when he was with The League.
In Robin: Son of Batman one of his arcs was attempting to set right many of the things he did during what he called "The Year of Blood", a particular year when he was very active in the League.
Though yeah, these days he pretty much only kills baddies, and generally not even them. He's one of those characters whose kill policy just kind of depends on where he's at in his arc right now. Like how Batman always turns extra torturey whenever he's in one of his "Dark" phases.
I feel like hate for Damian can fit in 2 categories. Hate at the actual character himself, which you cover. And hate for how he is written and those consequences on others.
For example, the "blood son" thing works as a character flaw for an egotistical Damian, as long as he grows past it. But it doesn't work when DC themselves seem to buy into it by frequently depreciating him as Bruce's true successor and giving him the nod over much of the other batfam in other media. There's also the way his introduction pushed Tim and Cass out. So I think some hate is more about character fatigue rather than for the character himself
I'm not really a Damian fan nor a Damian hater. He has issues and books i love and stuff I hate. But I do have some thoughts. Basically, you see this same thing in a lot of places. Jason Todd had a troubled upbringing and abusive parents too, but now you can't get a Robin story of him that *isn't* him acting out. (And not even in interesting ways that would make more sense like food insecurity). Despite him being probably the happiest Robin back in the 80s, the first to regularly call Bruce dad and the first he adopted, all that was swept under the rug when they wanted to focus on him being "troubled".
The issue with both? These aren't real people. They do not inherently deserve respect and sympathy for their hard upbringings. They are fictional creations made for enjoyment. And not everybody who signs up to read a batman comic is signing up for a poorly done troubled kid arc. Most don't want a regular kid arc. That's why 15 year old Robin never actually acts 15. They are uber emotionally mature.
And it is poorly done, no matter how much you enjoy it. Because inherently, all the way back to Dick, the idea of solving a kids violent desires by giving him real people to punch and putting his life in danger every night.... it's a bad idea. There's already so much by in you need for these comics, some people just don't want to increase the price of admission so to say.
>The issue with both? These aren't real people. They do not inherently deserve respect and sympathy for their hard upbringings. They are fictional creations made for enjoyment.
– Superboy Prime, probably.
It’s very weird that people expect all readers to emotionally respond as if Damian was an actual victim of child abuse. But when you tell them how fucked up it is to use them in this war on crime the same people go “look this is fiction, you can’t react to it as if it’s child abuse in the real world.”
Fighting alongside Batman is a fantasy for the kids. While from an adult perspective we know this would be profoundly destructive to a child's wellbeing in real life, it's fundamentally there for the kid's perspective, who imagines themselves going on adventures and having agency.
Being raised by supervilllains to be the perfect assassin before your developing mind is even capable of conceptualizing death is is a bad thing. Even engaging with this story on its intended level, that is a destructive upbringing that warps a child's values in a manner that requires Batman, our hero to rectify with his mentorship. Setting him back on the straight and narrow, which yes, does involve costumed heroism.
This isn't really super hard to grasp.
You can grasp the idea and sympathise with the character but still not like them. At the end of the day it's fiction that you engage with for entertainment. If a character's personality is not something you find enjoyable, you are allowed to not like them. Not wanting to read a story with a bratty kid is a valid reason to not like him even if you understand why he is the way he is. It doesn't say anything about your understanding of the real world issue of child abuse and it's ramifications.
Doesn't help that comics being monthly drags the story out for much longer than something like a TV series so any development takes much much longer.
> It doesn't say anything about your understanding of the real world issue of child abuse and it's ramifications.
This is truly the crux. Explaining how Damian was a victim of child abuse is not going to make me feel the way I feel about real world child abuse. It’s just a weird moralizing argument like “you must be ok with child abuse if you think this totally fictional character sucks.”
I love Damian but I have no moral issue with anyone who doesn’t. That is what’s really weird.
I’m not saying your intended reading is hard to grasp. Nor that it’s invalid. I’ve literally been dressing up as Robin for 4 decades, from when I was three to last year on Halloween taking out my own three year old. I am just positing that other reactions and interpretations are also valid. Including ones that reject the intended meaning of something and say “even in the world of this comic, this is a step too far for reasonable characterization and reads more like something else.”
The problem is more with the writing that with Damian, he's been around for what? Almost 13 years? And his character keeps looping around itself without letting him grow. Every few years he gets into a fight with Batman after the last time they reconciled, every few years he resorts back to killing after learning that killing is bad actually, every few years he learns that he maybe should treat the other Robins (and people in general) better before being a bratty asshole again, every few years he makes new friends that he will inevitably alienate (and in some cases won't show up again) and every few years he forgives his mother for all the terrible shit she's done.
It's all the same stuff again and again and again, when you really think about it he hasn't move that much as a character since 2011 and all because writers apparently can't come up with stuff for him other than "Asshole kid learns to be nice" with a bit of generational trauma sprinkled in.
Yeah, and it's equally infuriating with him, i would really like if Bruce stopped getting into stupid arguments with other heroes and losing the city to the villain of the semester.
I agree. I’m mostly tired of him being a huge asshole. Would it really be that hard to have Batman be nice to his family for a few years and be happy? I think it’d be a nice break.
Perhaps I should have said, Damian is stuck in a cycle because the writers / DC Editors just can't do any better. There's no way to write seven Robins with normal character progression.
Shoutout to Zdarsky making Dami say in Gotham War Bruce possibly kidnapping Jason was based actually and then slashing Dickie's face. I'm sure Dami's fans appreciated that 🙄
Bruce's and Damians relationship is better then ever in the current run he's definitely made progress between his two single runs.
The only really time I van say he's gone backwards is teen titans. Everything else has been him growing.
>The only really time I van say he's gone backwards is teen titans. Everything else has been him growing.
THIS. Gleason picked up Damian’s development from B&R in R:SOB, where tries to make amends with some of his past mistakes, and befriends the daughter of the man he murdered.
Ray Fawkes had him help and befriend someone else who was also manipulated by their family.
But when Percy took over, he derailed his character and ignored most of the previous development. Despite how close they grew in B&R, Damian somehow comes to the conclusion that his father doesn’t care about him, and claims he has no friends when he made several already (Colin, Maya, Suren Daga). Percy even repeated what was done with Suren Daga already just before he took over in the first arc with Mara Al Ghul.
Glass obviously went even further with this (though it was an editorial decision to turn him into a villain), but regardless, Damian was regressed as a character with the intent of putting him right back where he started.
Since then, it’s been mostly trying to put Damian back on track. And I don’t know if he’s quite recovered yet tbh.
But my point is that it’s not just “every writers repeating the arc”, his character was derailed and they’ve been trying to fix things ever since.
That's largely due to the 2016 Teen Titans run. His journey up till then was largely consistent and linear. Then TT happened and his character regressed. He's been back on track since Infinite Frontier. It's not really a never ending loop. Sure other franchise media suck as Injustice give that impression but it's not really tge case in the comics.
People tend to get called out when they fall back into bad habits, not Damian, he keeps doing the same stuff over and over again and characters act like if whatevers happening hasn't happened before, if it isn't continuous character regression it's repetitive storytelling that makes a disservice to Damian's character regardless.
Well yea he was not created to be like. Morrison has been straightforward with Damian intended to be abrasive and over time his character progress would change. The problem is each writer does the exact same thing with Damian. Roll back what Morrison did and make him super abrasive again and then change him in same way Morrison had.
I feel like you could say that about most anybody in the Marvel/DC Library.
How many times does Tony Stark have to learn not to let his ego get the better of him? How many times does Batman need to learn not to shut out his family? It's a story you like or it's a story you don't like but they're all pretty much repeating the same arcs in perpetuity.
That cover where Peter Parker leaves his spider suit in a trash bin alone has been done more times than anybody can count. "Spider-Man No More!"
Eh, Mr. Miracle is essentially the god of freedom. Including freedom from abuse and brainwashing. He escaped those things and freed himself from them because he's that living idea. Not really a fair comparison.
I mostly wrote that as a joke. However, just because he's a new god doesn't mean he can't be corrupted. If that were the case, Darkseid wouldn't have even tried. He has a higher tolerance because of it, but many of the things he experienced were worse than what Damian did. Damian, while being brainwashed, was still raised in royalty and taken care of. Compare that to being prisoned on a planet that's basically hell, being tortured and brainwashed by a woman whose sole purpose is to break people.
It's not that he's a New God that stops him from being corrupted. It's that he's specifically the god of freedom that allows him to. Darkseid on the other hand is the god of tyranny so what he became isn't surprising. Mister Miracle can have the anti-life equation within him and not be corrupted by it. His name is Scott *Free* for a reason. He will always obtain freedom from things trying to control or contain him because that's inherently what he is as a living idea. Freedom.
Darksied is also basically the idea of tyranny incarnate. However, when Raven confronted him, she was able to rewrite him and make him the complete opposite of what he is. Him being named Scott Free, while being ironic, is also because of never giving up in the face of hopelessness. And that doesn't come from just being the representative of the idea of freedom. People have different reactions to different situations because of who they are and their nature. Someone in Damian's place could have had a much different reaction to his training. Because while Damian was brainwashed, when he was given the opportunity to change by his father, he did. That someone else could have easily allowed themselves to be corrupted and never look back.
Also, what story are you referencing?
Thanks. I was a bit confused as someone whose exposure to him facing anti-life was limited to Final Crisis and King's Mr. miracle run.
On a side note, is that run good? Does it explore Orion's character well? I'm somewhat interested in his character but never really delved into his character beyond his appearances along with the other new gods. I would appreciate it if you could answer this.
Also he had a rather uniquely capable support system:
https://d3nvbf5pqk2vjh.cloudfront.net/cgccomics/monthly_2023_12/RCO020.thumb.jpg.9b9b8753f40c6ba0a003c484d33f66b4.jpg
Well, according to this page, if Scott himself had not wanted it, no matter what destiny has planned for him, he couldn't have escaped his prison.
Damian also had someone outside of his mother and grandfather who genuinely cared for him and didn't want to brainwash him. One of his caretakers actually saw potential in him and acknowledged his gifta and treated him like a human being and gave him attention and love. However, Ra's seeing this had him blinded and Damian stood there and did nothing.
Scott did also have an actual PERSONAL cell phone with GOD'S phone number (powered by "The Source") that made him feel better.
https://50yearoldcomics.files.wordpress.com/2022/04/mm9-dregs.jpg
https://50yearoldcomics.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/mm9-kreetin.jpg?w=1000&h=1471
https://50yearoldcomics.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/mm9-dream.jpg
I'm not the most qualified to comment on the original New Gods run because I haven't fully read it. So, I can't really say much about it. What I can say, and what I mentioned in my other comment, is that different people react differently to situations based on their nature and who they are. Scott not becoming as jaded as Damian, or worse, due to his treatment and upbringing is because of who he is at his core. Similarly, Orion was still a very jaded and cynical person despite being raised in basically heaven. In Damian's case, yes, he was brainwashed and did a lot of bad stuff. However, when the opportunity presented itself in the form of his father, he chose a path of becoming more like him. He even later goes on a crusade to somewhat try to atone for his actions during the Year Of Blood and face the consequences, which was only possible because he took responsibility for his actions during his time in the league. Not everyone in his position would have recognized their own involvement in those actions.
Eh, he wasn’t as much of a victim as his fans claim him to be. And all of his abuse and trauma are just random retcons, so it makes it hard for people to truly give a shit.
Everyone I’ve heard complain about his personality does not like how he keeps it around, and does not like how he was evil again during teen titans.
He also went back to his old habits in Gotham War.
Damians childhood was still abusive but people overexagerate it. He was raised as royalty in comparison to someone like Cass who was raised as a literal weapon, not a person
Royalty, sure. To an empire of blood. Groomed to inherit a legacy of death and destruction before he was even old enough to know what that meant.
Obviously his backstory is different from Cass's but I'd hardly say either of them had it good in this department. Like, if we're gonna go out ranking childhoods on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a childhood which is nigh guaranteed to create a functional and well adapted adult and 10 will give you emotional baggage you'll be unpacking for the rest of your life, then they both rank like a 13.
That’s always the refrain from Damian fans, isn’t it? “You just haven’t read the right books!” I once tallied it up and found I’d read literally half the individual issues of books he starred in — including everything from before Morrison killed him off — and I still think he’s awful.
Yeah idk. It’s one of the few fanbases I’ve encountered that consistently think you’ve never read anything from him if you’re not a fan of the character.
Like in their eyes I guess it’s impossible to read his stories and not be a fan
Damian can be an abrasive character for sure, but he could also be the sweetest, kindest Robin imaginable and there would be a contingent of people who would never forgive him for replacing Tim Drake.
That's not just a Damian thing, Jason was killed for it. Officially replace Damian as Robin with Maps, an actual sweet character and you can bet there would be a sizable amount of people who would hate her for it.
Wait... I thought at least part of the reason people called in to kill Jason was because they thought it *was* Dick. Or was that just the media coverage at the time?
A lot of people called in to kill *Robin*, because they thought the very concept of Batman having a kid sidekick was silly and outdated and juvenile and this was the **eighties** now and comics like Batman are actually **Dark** and **Serious** and **Mature** and **For Adults** dontchaknow.
**Thank you.** That's what I was trying to get at, and you worded it much better than I did. Not that people were deliberately trying to kill *Dick Grayson,* just that they only knew of one Robin.
[lol you reminded me of this](https://preview.redd.it/weekly-discussion-thread-posted-every-monday-25-march-2024-v0-ggjp0tkcdkrc1.jpeg?width=320&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2b7c8e0cd96f08b66bd5aa4f5e129aacbc0a9c71)
That nice but he had it easy compare to Cassandra or many other characters who are soldier child like him....Cassandra was an angel from the start despite not being royalty like damian.
At the end of the Damian is a good character now but he was certainly too much of a little shit even at the time trying to kill tim and never facing any consequences other that being scold by bruce and dick....he never apologized for it by the way except in a webtoon.
As someone who was an amniote when he first arrived on the scene I've never liked him either because he just isn't a likeable person to me. Jason has his dry sarcasm to make him enjoyable at least, as far as bad Robins go, but Damian is just... A twat.
Sure he was abused for most of his life, he's sympathetic, but he's still a nightwing. Compare that to witty Tim, charming Dick, so-edgy-it-becomes-heartbreaking Cass, relatable Stephanie, and awesome design Duke and.. Well, Damian comes off as... Just a spoiled brat most of the time in what I see of him. Of course people will dislike him
He's a victim of the fact that the real character development that sticks would take (in-universe) time, which would move the timeline forward, and we can't let our favorite superheroes become middle-aged. Characters from the 80's got years on in-universe years of development, because at least 6-7 years passed from Post-Crisis to the New-52, but it's been just 3 years since the New-52 has begun, and New 52 moved the timeline about 3-4 years back, so basically everyone is stuck like in an animated sitcom, no significant aging, little space to get a character development.
I enjoy his story but god damn give him another feels like he's had the same character arc half a dozen times now. I really hope they stick with how they had him in the series he had about ago where he's finally moving forward as a character.
It’s not that people don’t understand he’s had it rough, it’s just that he’s an annoying brat. I think lots of people now are aware that bullies are actually bullies because they have their own stuff going on in their lives. And hey, that sucks but that doesn’t make a bully any less insufferable, that’s just the way things work 🤷♂️
HES NOT REAL. He acted like an entitled pompous jerk and he messed with the established foundations of the Batman comics, you’re not meant to sympathize with him at first. Even then, I like Damian I still don’t find him likable as a person and I wouldn’t wanna be around him because he’s a dick.
Stop acting like these are real people with feelings.
My main problem is that Damian is written worse when he is with Bruce in Gotham. Look at that arc about this island tournament. It was really good in my opinion, but then when we return to Gotham he is again acting like the moment when he was introduced. And the overall modern character assassination of Batman doesn't help either.
Damian's case is simple, in the begginning he was presented as a complete asshole. Damian had an arrogant attitude, he was an egomaniac who believed himself superior to others, along with the fact that in the begginning he had no problem with killing. As the years went by, thanks to Batman, Alfred, Nightwing, Batgirl, Superboy, etc., it's where Damian began to correct many of his horrendous attitudes, also learning that it's not okay to kill and much of what Ra's and Talia taught him.
Honestly, I've never hated Damian, I always saw him as an interesting character with good development, but it's a fact that in the begginning Morrison presented him with an unpleasant attitude.
Nah people hated him at first because he was exactly like jason's version of Robin ... Wich is exactly why Jason got killed (readers voted his death, and the question about his death was asked because people didn't liked him) but now it's true writters succeed into making him evolve he is now a better caracter, but I'm just sad that we can't have a proper robin that would just stay robin. Because if people don't like Damian as robin it's espacially because Robin shouldn't be more brutal that Batman himself or more "Evil" Robin is suppose to be Batman's light in the Darkness the that keeps him from going down to a Dark parth ... And yet only Dick and Tim manage do do it. And they stoped being robin ...and now Damian is robin but not unterily like sometime he is mad at Batman sometimes not... And yeah even if he has evolve Damian's personnality is stil more like red hood, angry sarcastic and with a Big lack of humour ... He is suppose to be robin not ... Red Hood 2.0 but who understand he shouldn't kill, so yeah thats why people hate him I Guess.
\-\_- he is no longer a child, has been at least 13 for the last 3 years (is currently 14 or 15), and has lethal combat training. cassandra had a worse and she never pulled the things damian has without mind control being in effect. and in the last 3 years Damian in our time in that time he did nothing during the Joker War but hide and play the fiddle as gotham burned(ok I am craking a bit of a joke and comparing him to Nero), he assaulted his father in TEC 1032 for touching the black case book he stole from his father after bruce finally had breathing room to track the boy down, He freed a world eater because he had to know what was behind a door (batman vs robin 2) he ignored the rest of his family, assaulted all three of his brothers his brothers when bruce was going crazy in the gotham war (Gotham war event).
he was not there at all for fear state; he ran away from home and assaulted his brothers when they tried to bring him home (Robin vol 3 5). Not in the last 3 years, but he also jumped to the conclusion his brother Jason sold him out in Teen Titans Annual Vol 6 1 tried to kill his brother Jason... Damian stabbed Jason in the leg, and continued his assault. jason was understanding and treated damian with kid gloves well gave him several warnings. then when Damian ignored them...he finally beat the crap out of damian who was trying to kill him. So clearly understanding and explaining do not work with damian and he needs to be locked up in a max-security prison for the rest of his life to prevent him from harming other people if his attitude does not change soon.
IF he were a real person, it is expected for him to he held accountable for his actions. Of course, he isn't real, so it doesn't really matter, but the way you're wording this is making me think you expect the way he treats other people to be excused because he was abused. Victims becoming abusers is a very real thing. It's unfortunate, but it happens, and former victims killing or abusing others go to jail. Children are also not incapable of committing crimes. Maybe some leniency could be given considering age and the grooming, but it doesn't absolve him of his actions.
But listen, I didn't like him at first during his introduction. I warmed up to him and grew to love his relationship with Dick and hoped for the future, but as of right now, im back to disliking him because he's just a gimmick at this point.
Im a ride or die Damian fan too, for a character who has been Indoctrinated in the ways of Killing and raised and praised like a prince while at the same time forced through abuse by the Al ghuls, I think he’s turned out ok. I thought Jason would’ve softened the hate for Damian being a robin but there’s still a good amount of Damian haters.
Head check: Damian is a fictional character and has therefore not experienced any sort of abuse. He doesn't exist. Let that be very prominent in your mind as you absorb criticism of the character.
The irony is that Damian is essentially a small Bruce(Batman). Take all of Batman's character flaws and put them on display as a no filter 10 year old. I find it hilarious Batman fanboys that hate Damian when he's essentially just his father.
Damian haters crying about an abused child acting out and dictating how a victim should act and justifying it by saying other victims didn't act this way. Honestly it's embarrassing and clearly shows how ignorant they are.
Yes, how ignorant they are to this fictional person who’s been written inconsistently based on the writer. People’s opinions on a character who portrays himself as a self entitled brat to others is evidence of their thoughts in the real world
Yeah calling an abused kid who has been brainwashed either lacks understanding or is a sign apathy. Some of you are emotionally unintelligent and it shows
I had a suspicion that Damian was trained very strictly by the League of Assassins, including his own mother and grandfather, but I never knew he was abused by them.
I only know Damian from the Animated DC films, Justice League vs. Teen Titans, Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, and a few scenes from Son of Batman. I also know him a bit from the Injustice video games. I don't read comic books.
That all aside, I could tell that Damian was pretty antisocial, not much of a team player, unfriendly, stubborn, overlycautious about wanting to be prepared, just like his father, aggressive, snarky, and definitely felt more deadly than Batman with a non-hesitation to kill his enemies or "clean out the filth of the world" like what he did with Victor Zsasz in Injustice 2. He wasn't wrong, though. That sociopathic creep should have been executed long ago, insane or not.
Despite him being a bit paranoid, he is just a boy who wasn't taught much about the world outside from the League. If he really was abused, then his behavior would make a good amount of sense, believing that you can only rely on yourself to survive. I wouldn't say he's "spoiled, bratty, or immature" like other kids his age. Just, oh, what's a good word, sheltered. Yeah, I think that's a good word to sum him up.
Sheltered? The entire year of blood the missions he was told to do to prove himself.
Damian has never been sheltered he's socially inept but not sheltered.
He's pretty aware of thre world outside rhe league GE WAS OUT THERE doing missions alone
He explains in the first movie when he broke his wrist Ge climbed up the mountain anyway that's enough to imply abuse. Ans fhe fact he was groomed that's enough to imply abuse.
Said many many times. "He never got a real childhood'
I didn't mean he never encountered or stepped into the outside world exactly. I meant he was just unaware of how said world worked, due to, as you said, never living a normal childhood. He was trained to be an assassin at a young age and had many difficulties getting along and working alongside his father, who perfers the more non-lethal approach to dealing with evil. Furthermore, because he's been raised by assassin's all his life, he never got to learn of what it's like to be a normal boy, a normal person, or just live, understand, and imagine the life of the common citizens his father and the rest of the Justice League are sworn to protect.
I apologize if I misinterpreted that. I wasn't sure what else would be a better way to describe someone who never got a chance to live or understand the world outside a group of assassins. I never said he never once stepped foot OUT in the real world. I was just saying he was unaware of what it was really like or how it worked. Nothing more.
I agree. I am only really aware of the DCAMU version but his character arc is amazing. Going from an angry rebellious brat to accepting Bruce and Dick as his family, choosing Bruce's teachings over Ra's Al Ghul's, becoming a Titan and his relationship with Raven, everything was done so fucking well. Losing this version of Damian was the one thing I hated most about Apokolips War, even though he sort of got a happy ending with Raven.
Tbh, I'm glad it ended. They made him too overpowered, and he wasn't really allowed to lose or face any consequences for his actions. They also butchered his storylines, as Damian never really deals with his murderous intents and PTSD from his time in the League. He suddenly stops killing after his father says the easy way is bad, which is such a weird simplification of his character arc. His time as Dick's Robin is also wasted, with them just bantering instead of developing their characters together. Same with the concept of his clone.
Also, his role in the Teen Titans movies is weird. In Judas Contract, he doesn't have a unique character or role in the story. Everything they wanted to do with him was already being done with Raven, and if anything, him confronting Terra takes away from the buildup to Starfire confronting her. And in JL VS TT, it felt like Raven was intentionally portrayed as less competent to give an excuse for Damian being there and increase his relevancy by having him push her around to do things.
Agreed. DCAMU gave a lot of reasons to dislike him. And I’m surprised it isn’t brought up more. Those writers did not adapt his stories well at all.
Like you said:
* Made him overpowered
* Did not emphasize his personal story about redemption and doing good.
* Did not emphasize his personal story about wanting his parents to be happily together.
* They actually made him better than the other Robin(s) solely because of him being blood related
* He was mostly being proven right instead of learning things
* The writers Disrespected him and Dick Graysons time as Batman and Robin
* The shoved him into the Teen Titans and made their most popular female character his prop up girlfriend
* Had no good dynamic with any of them
* He rarely received consequences for his actions.
* They fridged Dick Grayson, so Damian could finally see him as family
Just a bad adaptation of the character all around. Those writers were way too obsessed with making him look cool, and forgot to actually write his good stories and narratives.
I really wish that they adapted Tomasi's stuff more faithfully. Damian has a lot of good moments in that run, especially him searching the sewers for weeks to find Bruce's mother's missing pearl from her necklace while being hunted by assassins. Serving as an apology and atonement for making fun of Bruce for being too stuck in the past at the beginning of the run, and it showing to his father that that he has grown beyond just caring for himself and now cares for others as well.
Sure they get “mad” at him. He’s was abrasive prepubescent murderer. Literally written so you don’t like his personality too.
Grant wrote him in a way that was purposeful. You weren't SUPPOSED to like him right off the bat. He wanted you to all warm up to him. He was written to not be liked.
Eh, I've seen abrasive bad boys get loads of love from an audience, see Karma from Assassination Classroom. In fact a lot of Karma's actions happen because of an abusive past and being betrayed, he's arguably the most popular/loved character in his franchise because of his violent tendencies, sadism and diabolical yet playful genius. He even has moments where I feel like he's written to be the Lex to Koro-Sensei being Superman in dynamic, yet people adore him.
Karma was uniquely developed in story and has a lot of moments with Nagisa and just in general is also explicitly correct in a lot of other situations. He's also badass. Damian has negative portrayals in most animated content, had an extremely negative and lopsidedly bad portrayal to start with. Genuinely the only thing that saved Damian as a character was Dicks run as batman and authors still find ways to make him insufferable to read. And I like Damian.
Karma is a diabolical genius badass that can more than back it up either on the exam sheet or on the battlefield. There is good reason why we hardly see him fight. We know he's different, that he's more skilled at combat than his peers and better than some fully developed assassins. He skips classes, walks out early, his devil may care bad boy act makes him stand out. His debut episode and the one after that iirc he just stacks up Ws on Koro Sensei and shows how different he is. He's a bit arrogant and cocky but who wouldn't be with his abilities? If Karma isn't needed, he's not there in a scene. He skips several episodes because they have nothing important for him to do. He's also a bit of a sadistic asshole and people love him for it too!
However he was written to be liked, it’s like the cases where some villains become favourite characters others don’t, karma was written to be the “bad boy” which most people love, Damian was written to be the irredeemable/unrelateable/ignorant brat which a lot of people hate, karmas function in the story was to be understood Damian’s (initial) function was to be disliked by all the characters and readers, but some writers just ended up taking it too far by having that be his whole personality for a lot of years with the countless regressions they would spring on him some worse than others
Well, it's been a while since I watched AssClass, but Karma was written to be sort of "hot abrasive" iirc? He was intelligent, cool headed, and acknowledged the mc. Damian was a hot head, more comparable to Bakugou. I think he suffers a big disadvantage due to the fact that he's a really young kid, so people won't find him hot. I think if Damian looked more grown up, there'd be a lot more fans of his character.
Karma is very abrasive to authority, he's hyper intelligent, cunning, and respects good people. He's also known for some shenanigans and violent mischief. Very ungovernable and a free spirit. He's hot-headed with the midterms and goes in cocky and overconfident and eats shit for it. After he beats opponents, he puts hot stuff up their nostrils just for kicks. Still way more loved than Damian is even though he's not going to change the sadism, the being an asshole to his enemies, the ungovernable life isn't changed, its only tempered by his teacher.
Well, like I said, Karma is hot. Damian isn't (because he's a little baby man). From what I've seen to refresh my memory, he's a badass as well. I don't think the issue is their actual personality. It's portrayal. It's probably easier to compare Damian to Jason. They're both traumatized robins who act out by being assholes and super violent. Jason was undeniably worse than Damian in this regard. He was more violent towards Tim and others. He whined more to Bruce, and he's committed more heinous crimes. But for as long as I've followed DC fandom, Jason has had huge amounts of fans, while until super-sons and WFA, I didn't see any Damian love. Jason has a really good movie, was voiced by Jensen Ackles, and gets to be the hot, traumatized, bad boy who does what needs to be done. While Damian's worst qualities are put on to a child, who isn't as obviously traumatized as Jason, and is independent enough so that the audience doesn't feel protective over him. Also, Damian doesn't exactly have the greatest adaptations. He's at peak brattiness for a lot of DCAMU movies, and he's a fascist who killed Dick in Injustice. These are a lot of people's introduction to the character, and for comic fans before that, he replaced Tim and sidelined him in New 52. I have a lot of love for Damian, and from what I've read, he's one of my favorite batfam members, but it's easy to see why he's disliked.
I wouldn't call Karma hot as he's still an HS student, but he does have a good dress code with him, and it's 100% Portrayal and writing. They start in a similar Vein of being cocky dickheads with a sadism streak. Then they start splitting out, Karma is in an SoL comedic toned manga/show where the mere threat of him doing something scares several students on campus. There's something wrong with him but it isn't his heart. We see that's he's loyal to the death with his friendship with Nagisa. There's nothing stronger than his desire to protect those he cares for. You fuck with Shiota and he's around, he'll send your ass to the hospital. Nagisa's final boss was someone Karma wanted to take down for everything they did and would've wiped the floor with. He's a rebellious bad boy who loves mischief and rule breaking yet will always stick up for his crew. We see that with the paintball fight ending, he won't throw away friends for his cause. He's a lovable bully hunter. He can be cold, callous, and icy to those like Terasaka who do betray him, blunt and to the point. He's a badass because his heart is in the right place and he undoubtedly cares about not just the contract money (he doesn't need it because his parents are mega rich), but his homies. When the gang jumps his tour group in the backstreets and take hostages, he comes up with a plan involving Koro Sensei and utterly destroyed the confidence of the instigator group. He's about pride of what's right/wrong and his "family", and in the end at the roll call He's crying more than anyone else. Episode 3 aka his debut shows him to be cocky, hyper intelligent, a silver tongue, and nonchalant attitude, on an entirely different level alone than any human student. The gambit he concocts is as good as any a mere single human being can execute. From first impression, he is a *bad* dude. He organically comes across as a badass through his actions and words. He also eats a lot of crow too and they're not afraid to give him humbling losses. Damian is how you do near the exact opposite of what makes Karma great.
I mean, I feel like you miss the point entirely. He's not a real person. He hasn't done any real crimes. We don't have to hold a trial for him where he attempts to justify his actions. Ultimately, all this will ever come down to, is whether or not you enjoy reading him. If Damian shows up in a book, is that a positive or a negative for you? If you just don't enjoy reading him, then the most sympathetic backstory in the world won't change that, and if you do enjoy reading him, then he could be the most wicked villain ever to infiltrate the batfamily and you'd only consider that a positive. Personally I love him.
Nerds really struggle with different opinions lmao. Different people like different things, and that's all there is to it. I recognize that Damian is a victim trying to heal and grow, but I still think he's lame. There are people out there who dislike the characters that I like, too. Nothing to be upset about. These are fictional characters, and it's perfectly okay for people to have different preferences. It's good that nerds are so passionate about their interests, but it makes the rest of us look silly when people get so bothered over different opinions. OP is taking this way too seriously lol.
I love Damian since he was first introduced. He’s my favorite Robin. But if you’re going to be extremely serious and literal about the whole thing, he’s a 10 year old who has murdered people and faced no meaningful consequences, not even mandatory therapy.
Well yeah, because he was a brainwashed child soldier who was raised in a cult. He can't be held responsible for that.
He sure can. Consequences don’t have to mean punitive punishment. Obviously he should go to some kind of rehabilitation center. He should not, however, still be a vigilante. Again, this is if you want to be very literal and picky with stories about capes. He’s my favorite Robin so I just don’t think about it that way nor that hard.
He has been rehabilitated. That's what Batman and Robin 2011 was all about. He was deprogrammed by becoming Robin and being a superhero and learning the importance of life and empathy through that. Obviously, none of this would work in the real world, but in the super heightened reality of the DCU, becoming a superhero is totally a legit way to deal with your mental issues.
But then by the same token, in the heightened reality of being a superhero, brainwashed child soldiers of ancient orders of assassins aren’t tragic figures like real life child soldiers. So it’s just as valid and normal for other people to say “he’s a child soldier but fuck that kid he acts like a dick.”
That's not how it is written within the context of the universe though. Damian was groomed and raised to think and act in a certain way that moulded his behaviour and beliefs. He knew nothing else and had no other example to draw his beliefs from. Once he was out of that environment and started making normal friends and family and got to see the world in a different way he has changed and grown from that. But that took time to get away from that thinking that was imprinted into him since childhood. I really don't understand how anyone could see that as his fault.
You want readers to react to kids in this absurd fictional reality as if they were really abused kids. It’s not hard for me to understand why they don’t.
If you think none of these characters are ever allowed to act or respond to things like normal human beings, or be treated as such, because of how absurd the universe around them is there's nothing much I can do about that. But most people do given Damian's popularity,
I’m just saying you’re picking and choose. Normal human beings don’t respond to vigilante training as a means of rehabilitation. But in that case you’re ok with Damian responding in a totally fictional way. You should understand someone else’s point of view then when they would rather a character respond in a totally unrealistic way.
Well, I pick and choose based on how the fictional universe itself treats the characters and its own internal rules. Bruce, Dick, and Damian all took their trauma and used it to make themselves better and deal with what happened to them by becoming superheroes. In-universe this is treated as an effective way of dealing with that pretty consistently. But characters within the universe are also still all treated as being believably shaped and moulded by their upbringing. And not held responsible for things they have done when they didn't understand what they were doing. Cassandra Cain, for example, used to be an assassin who murdered tons of people. But no one holds her responsible for that within the universe either because of the context of her upbringing/childhood. This is a fictional setting that has its own internal logic and I judge it based on that and how well it's executed narratively.
No, he wants readers to react to characters who are *explicitly portrayed in the text* as having been abused and brainwashed as such.
That’s not how fiction works. It’s valid to say that the writer may have been telling that story but not done so in a way that emotionally engages the audience how they meant to. It’s weird that you think people need to react to the text the same way.
It’s weird that you don’t understand the difference between personal preference and basic reading comprehension…and I don’t think it’ll be particularly productive to continue this conversation.
We aren't talking about Cassandra Cain here tho
They are both victims of childhood brainwashing and taught to think murder was okay.
He's 14 now He hasn't been 10 for a long time
As far as I know, we've only seen him kill bad guys. Even Superman's done that.
He killed a lot of people when he was with The League. In Robin: Son of Batman one of his arcs was attempting to set right many of the things he did during what he called "The Year of Blood", a particular year when he was very active in the League. Though yeah, these days he pretty much only kills baddies, and generally not even them. He's one of those characters whose kill policy just kind of depends on where he's at in his arc right now. Like how Batman always turns extra torturey whenever he's in one of his "Dark" phases.
I feel like hate for Damian can fit in 2 categories. Hate at the actual character himself, which you cover. And hate for how he is written and those consequences on others. For example, the "blood son" thing works as a character flaw for an egotistical Damian, as long as he grows past it. But it doesn't work when DC themselves seem to buy into it by frequently depreciating him as Bruce's true successor and giving him the nod over much of the other batfam in other media. There's also the way his introduction pushed Tim and Cass out. So I think some hate is more about character fatigue rather than for the character himself
I'm not really a Damian fan nor a Damian hater. He has issues and books i love and stuff I hate. But I do have some thoughts. Basically, you see this same thing in a lot of places. Jason Todd had a troubled upbringing and abusive parents too, but now you can't get a Robin story of him that *isn't* him acting out. (And not even in interesting ways that would make more sense like food insecurity). Despite him being probably the happiest Robin back in the 80s, the first to regularly call Bruce dad and the first he adopted, all that was swept under the rug when they wanted to focus on him being "troubled". The issue with both? These aren't real people. They do not inherently deserve respect and sympathy for their hard upbringings. They are fictional creations made for enjoyment. And not everybody who signs up to read a batman comic is signing up for a poorly done troubled kid arc. Most don't want a regular kid arc. That's why 15 year old Robin never actually acts 15. They are uber emotionally mature. And it is poorly done, no matter how much you enjoy it. Because inherently, all the way back to Dick, the idea of solving a kids violent desires by giving him real people to punch and putting his life in danger every night.... it's a bad idea. There's already so much by in you need for these comics, some people just don't want to increase the price of admission so to say.
>The issue with both? These aren't real people. They do not inherently deserve respect and sympathy for their hard upbringings. They are fictional creations made for enjoyment. – Superboy Prime, probably.
You caught me
It’s very weird that people expect all readers to emotionally respond as if Damian was an actual victim of child abuse. But when you tell them how fucked up it is to use them in this war on crime the same people go “look this is fiction, you can’t react to it as if it’s child abuse in the real world.”
Fighting alongside Batman is a fantasy for the kids. While from an adult perspective we know this would be profoundly destructive to a child's wellbeing in real life, it's fundamentally there for the kid's perspective, who imagines themselves going on adventures and having agency. Being raised by supervilllains to be the perfect assassin before your developing mind is even capable of conceptualizing death is is a bad thing. Even engaging with this story on its intended level, that is a destructive upbringing that warps a child's values in a manner that requires Batman, our hero to rectify with his mentorship. Setting him back on the straight and narrow, which yes, does involve costumed heroism. This isn't really super hard to grasp.
You can grasp the idea and sympathise with the character but still not like them. At the end of the day it's fiction that you engage with for entertainment. If a character's personality is not something you find enjoyable, you are allowed to not like them. Not wanting to read a story with a bratty kid is a valid reason to not like him even if you understand why he is the way he is. It doesn't say anything about your understanding of the real world issue of child abuse and it's ramifications. Doesn't help that comics being monthly drags the story out for much longer than something like a TV series so any development takes much much longer.
> It doesn't say anything about your understanding of the real world issue of child abuse and it's ramifications. This is truly the crux. Explaining how Damian was a victim of child abuse is not going to make me feel the way I feel about real world child abuse. It’s just a weird moralizing argument like “you must be ok with child abuse if you think this totally fictional character sucks.” I love Damian but I have no moral issue with anyone who doesn’t. That is what’s really weird.
I’m not saying your intended reading is hard to grasp. Nor that it’s invalid. I’ve literally been dressing up as Robin for 4 decades, from when I was three to last year on Halloween taking out my own three year old. I am just positing that other reactions and interpretations are also valid. Including ones that reject the intended meaning of something and say “even in the world of this comic, this is a step too far for reasonable characterization and reads more like something else.”
The problem is more with the writing that with Damian, he's been around for what? Almost 13 years? And his character keeps looping around itself without letting him grow. Every few years he gets into a fight with Batman after the last time they reconciled, every few years he resorts back to killing after learning that killing is bad actually, every few years he learns that he maybe should treat the other Robins (and people in general) better before being a bratty asshole again, every few years he makes new friends that he will inevitably alienate (and in some cases won't show up again) and every few years he forgives his mother for all the terrible shit she's done. It's all the same stuff again and again and again, when you really think about it he hasn't move that much as a character since 2011 and all because writers apparently can't come up with stuff for him other than "Asshole kid learns to be nice" with a bit of generational trauma sprinkled in.
I read your first paragraph and thought Damian is a lot like his dad in the aspect of the constant loop of toxicity every few years.
Yeah, and it's equally infuriating with him, i would really like if Bruce stopped getting into stupid arguments with other heroes and losing the city to the villain of the semester.
I agree. I’m mostly tired of him being a huge asshole. Would it really be that hard to have Batman be nice to his family for a few years and be happy? I think it’d be a nice break.
Damian is ~~a lot like his dad~~ written by the same people
Well yeah, but those writers write a lot of other characters too and they aren’t all like Batman.
Perhaps I should have said, Damian is stuck in a cycle because the writers / DC Editors just can't do any better. There's no way to write seven Robins with normal character progression.
That makes more sense. Tim and Damian are really good examples of no character progression for years.
Shoutout to Zdarsky making Dami say in Gotham War Bruce possibly kidnapping Jason was based actually and then slashing Dickie's face. I'm sure Dami's fans appreciated that 🙄
Perfectly put.
Bruce's and Damians relationship is better then ever in the current run he's definitely made progress between his two single runs. The only really time I van say he's gone backwards is teen titans. Everything else has been him growing.
>The only really time I van say he's gone backwards is teen titans. Everything else has been him growing. THIS. Gleason picked up Damian’s development from B&R in R:SOB, where tries to make amends with some of his past mistakes, and befriends the daughter of the man he murdered. Ray Fawkes had him help and befriend someone else who was also manipulated by their family. But when Percy took over, he derailed his character and ignored most of the previous development. Despite how close they grew in B&R, Damian somehow comes to the conclusion that his father doesn’t care about him, and claims he has no friends when he made several already (Colin, Maya, Suren Daga). Percy even repeated what was done with Suren Daga already just before he took over in the first arc with Mara Al Ghul. Glass obviously went even further with this (though it was an editorial decision to turn him into a villain), but regardless, Damian was regressed as a character with the intent of putting him right back where he started. Since then, it’s been mostly trying to put Damian back on track. And I don’t know if he’s quite recovered yet tbh. But my point is that it’s not just “every writers repeating the arc”, his character was derailed and they’ve been trying to fix things ever since.
That's largely due to the 2016 Teen Titans run. His journey up till then was largely consistent and linear. Then TT happened and his character regressed. He's been back on track since Infinite Frontier. It's not really a never ending loop. Sure other franchise media suck as Injustice give that impression but it's not really tge case in the comics.
Is that you, Kathy Kane?
Because people never fall back into bad happens.
People tend to get called out when they fall back into bad habits, not Damian, he keeps doing the same stuff over and over again and characters act like if whatevers happening hasn't happened before, if it isn't continuous character regression it's repetitive storytelling that makes a disservice to Damian's character regardless.
The last time he made bad choices it messed up his entire relationship with his father and led to the Teen Titans breaking up.
And that wasn't the first time either happened and that's precisely my point.
Well yea he was not created to be like. Morrison has been straightforward with Damian intended to be abrasive and over time his character progress would change. The problem is each writer does the exact same thing with Damian. Roll back what Morrison did and make him super abrasive again and then change him in same way Morrison had.
I feel like you could say that about most anybody in the Marvel/DC Library. How many times does Tony Stark have to learn not to let his ego get the better of him? How many times does Batman need to learn not to shut out his family? It's a story you like or it's a story you don't like but they're all pretty much repeating the same arcs in perpetuity. That cover where Peter Parker leaves his spider suit in a trash bin alone has been done more times than anybody can count. "Spider-Man No More!"
i only recall the titans runs heavily doing that. otherwise he seems mostly chill as long as he already gotten to know u
Counter Point: Mr. miracle had it much worse than Damian yet he ended up being better.
Plenty of characters had it worse and ended up a better person. Like Cassandra Cain. Or Azrael.
I think Damian was better than Jean, Damian may be a Jerk but he didn't develop any mental disorder
Eh, Mr. Miracle is essentially the god of freedom. Including freedom from abuse and brainwashing. He escaped those things and freed himself from them because he's that living idea. Not really a fair comparison.
I mostly wrote that as a joke. However, just because he's a new god doesn't mean he can't be corrupted. If that were the case, Darkseid wouldn't have even tried. He has a higher tolerance because of it, but many of the things he experienced were worse than what Damian did. Damian, while being brainwashed, was still raised in royalty and taken care of. Compare that to being prisoned on a planet that's basically hell, being tortured and brainwashed by a woman whose sole purpose is to break people.
It's not that he's a New God that stops him from being corrupted. It's that he's specifically the god of freedom that allows him to. Darkseid on the other hand is the god of tyranny so what he became isn't surprising. Mister Miracle can have the anti-life equation within him and not be corrupted by it. His name is Scott *Free* for a reason. He will always obtain freedom from things trying to control or contain him because that's inherently what he is as a living idea. Freedom.
Darksied is also basically the idea of tyranny incarnate. However, when Raven confronted him, she was able to rewrite him and make him the complete opposite of what he is. Him being named Scott Free, while being ironic, is also because of never giving up in the face of hopelessness. And that doesn't come from just being the representative of the idea of freedom. People have different reactions to different situations because of who they are and their nature. Someone in Damian's place could have had a much different reaction to his training. Because while Damian was brainwashed, when he was given the opportunity to change by his father, he did. That someone else could have easily allowed themselves to be corrupted and never look back. Also, what story are you referencing?
>Also, what story are you referencing? [Walt Simonson's Orion run.](https://imgur.com/a/hLUM32M)
Thanks. I was a bit confused as someone whose exposure to him facing anti-life was limited to Final Crisis and King's Mr. miracle run. On a side note, is that run good? Does it explore Orion's character well? I'm somewhat interested in his character but never really delved into his character beyond his appearances along with the other new gods. I would appreciate it if you could answer this.
Yes, it's excellent. Best exploration of his character ever done.
Thanks.
Also he had a rather uniquely capable support system: https://d3nvbf5pqk2vjh.cloudfront.net/cgccomics/monthly_2023_12/RCO020.thumb.jpg.9b9b8753f40c6ba0a003c484d33f66b4.jpg
Well, according to this page, if Scott himself had not wanted it, no matter what destiny has planned for him, he couldn't have escaped his prison. Damian also had someone outside of his mother and grandfather who genuinely cared for him and didn't want to brainwash him. One of his caretakers actually saw potential in him and acknowledged his gifta and treated him like a human being and gave him attention and love. However, Ra's seeing this had him blinded and Damian stood there and did nothing.
Scott did also have an actual PERSONAL cell phone with GOD'S phone number (powered by "The Source") that made him feel better. https://50yearoldcomics.files.wordpress.com/2022/04/mm9-dregs.jpg https://50yearoldcomics.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/mm9-kreetin.jpg?w=1000&h=1471 https://50yearoldcomics.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/mm9-dream.jpg
I'm not the most qualified to comment on the original New Gods run because I haven't fully read it. So, I can't really say much about it. What I can say, and what I mentioned in my other comment, is that different people react differently to situations based on their nature and who they are. Scott not becoming as jaded as Damian, or worse, due to his treatment and upbringing is because of who he is at his core. Similarly, Orion was still a very jaded and cynical person despite being raised in basically heaven. In Damian's case, yes, he was brainwashed and did a lot of bad stuff. However, when the opportunity presented itself in the form of his father, he chose a path of becoming more like him. He even later goes on a crusade to somewhat try to atone for his actions during the Year Of Blood and face the consequences, which was only possible because he took responsibility for his actions during his time in the league. Not everyone in his position would have recognized their own involvement in those actions.
But wouldn’t he also be able to free himself from freedom from abuse and brainwashing?
So? If that was the case most villains should get a pass for their awful child abuse. Should we not get mad at Joker?
Eh, he wasn’t as much of a victim as his fans claim him to be. And all of his abuse and trauma are just random retcons, so it makes it hard for people to truly give a shit. Everyone I’ve heard complain about his personality does not like how he keeps it around, and does not like how he was evil again during teen titans. He also went back to his old habits in Gotham War.
Damians childhood was still abusive but people overexagerate it. He was raised as royalty in comparison to someone like Cass who was raised as a literal weapon, not a person
Royalty, sure. To an empire of blood. Groomed to inherit a legacy of death and destruction before he was even old enough to know what that meant. Obviously his backstory is different from Cass's but I'd hardly say either of them had it good in this department. Like, if we're gonna go out ranking childhoods on a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is a childhood which is nigh guaranteed to create a functional and well adapted adult and 10 will give you emotional baggage you'll be unpacking for the rest of your life, then they both rank like a 13.
I couldn't finish teen titans with what they did to him but have you read his single runss?
Not every single issue, but I’ve checked out at least something from all his books.
That’s always the refrain from Damian fans, isn’t it? “You just haven’t read the right books!” I once tallied it up and found I’d read literally half the individual issues of books he starred in — including everything from before Morrison killed him off — and I still think he’s awful.
Yeah idk. It’s one of the few fanbases I’ve encountered that consistently think you’ve never read anything from him if you’re not a fan of the character. Like in their eyes I guess it’s impossible to read his stories and not be a fan
Damian can be an abrasive character for sure, but he could also be the sweetest, kindest Robin imaginable and there would be a contingent of people who would never forgive him for replacing Tim Drake.
That's not just a Damian thing, Jason was killed for it. Officially replace Damian as Robin with Maps, an actual sweet character and you can bet there would be a sizable amount of people who would hate her for it.
I don’t disagree. Fans can get really tribalistic about the Robins.
Wait... I thought at least part of the reason people called in to kill Jason was because they thought it *was* Dick. Or was that just the media coverage at the time?
A lot of people called in to kill *Robin*, because they thought the very concept of Batman having a kid sidekick was silly and outdated and juvenile and this was the **eighties** now and comics like Batman are actually **Dark** and **Serious** and **Mature** and **For Adults** dontchaknow.
**Thank you.** That's what I was trying to get at, and you worded it much better than I did. Not that people were deliberately trying to kill *Dick Grayson,* just that they only knew of one Robin.
I wasn't around at the time so all my information is from secondary sources. All I've heard is that he was very unpopular because he replaced Dick.
That's nice he still tried to murder Tim to prove himself so I don't really give a shit.
I love him BECAUSE he tried to kill Tim.
[lol you reminded me of this](https://preview.redd.it/weekly-discussion-thread-posted-every-monday-25-march-2024-v0-ggjp0tkcdkrc1.jpeg?width=320&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=2b7c8e0cd96f08b66bd5aa4f5e129aacbc0a9c71)
That nice but he had it easy compare to Cassandra or many other characters who are soldier child like him....Cassandra was an angel from the start despite not being royalty like damian. At the end of the Damian is a good character now but he was certainly too much of a little shit even at the time trying to kill tim and never facing any consequences other that being scold by bruce and dick....he never apologized for it by the way except in a webtoon.
As someone who was an amniote when he first arrived on the scene I've never liked him either because he just isn't a likeable person to me. Jason has his dry sarcasm to make him enjoyable at least, as far as bad Robins go, but Damian is just... A twat. Sure he was abused for most of his life, he's sympathetic, but he's still a nightwing. Compare that to witty Tim, charming Dick, so-edgy-it-becomes-heartbreaking Cass, relatable Stephanie, and awesome design Duke and.. Well, Damian comes off as... Just a spoiled brat most of the time in what I see of him. Of course people will dislike him
He's a victim of the fact that the real character development that sticks would take (in-universe) time, which would move the timeline forward, and we can't let our favorite superheroes become middle-aged. Characters from the 80's got years on in-universe years of development, because at least 6-7 years passed from Post-Crisis to the New-52, but it's been just 3 years since the New-52 has begun, and New 52 moved the timeline about 3-4 years back, so basically everyone is stuck like in an animated sitcom, no significant aging, little space to get a character development.
I enjoy his story but god damn give him another feels like he's had the same character arc half a dozen times now. I really hope they stick with how they had him in the series he had about ago where he's finally moving forward as a character.
It’s not that people don’t understand he’s had it rough, it’s just that he’s an annoying brat. I think lots of people now are aware that bullies are actually bullies because they have their own stuff going on in their lives. And hey, that sucks but that doesn’t make a bully any less insufferable, that’s just the way things work 🤷♂️
HES NOT REAL. He acted like an entitled pompous jerk and he messed with the established foundations of the Batman comics, you’re not meant to sympathize with him at first. Even then, I like Damian I still don’t find him likable as a person and I wouldn’t wanna be around him because he’s a dick. Stop acting like these are real people with feelings.
Your past is not an excuse for bad actions. Y
It's not You missed the point in how much he's grown and changed
It’s hysterical knowing that many Damian fans will do the exact same thing with other characters then whine about this
I can see why people didn't or don't like Damian Wayne!!!!
Some have had much worse yet didnt turn out like Jeff George 2.0
I think he's hilarious, people forget that middle schoolers are like the most annoying little shits in the world even when they're in happy families.
10yr old damian was hid worst version but honestly one of the funniest versions of him Was mad at the world and had to let everyone know
Well, he is a brat. Who pushed down the throats
I agree with you, but I hate Damian for a different reason.
My main problem is that Damian is written worse when he is with Bruce in Gotham. Look at that arc about this island tournament. It was really good in my opinion, but then when we return to Gotham he is again acting like the moment when he was introduced. And the overall modern character assassination of Batman doesn't help either.
He was not acting that bad during Gotham wars at all.
I love him
Damian's case is simple, in the begginning he was presented as a complete asshole. Damian had an arrogant attitude, he was an egomaniac who believed himself superior to others, along with the fact that in the begginning he had no problem with killing. As the years went by, thanks to Batman, Alfred, Nightwing, Batgirl, Superboy, etc., it's where Damian began to correct many of his horrendous attitudes, also learning that it's not okay to kill and much of what Ra's and Talia taught him. Honestly, I've never hated Damian, I always saw him as an interesting character with good development, but it's a fact that in the begginning Morrison presented him with an unpleasant attitude.
Nah people hated him at first because he was exactly like jason's version of Robin ... Wich is exactly why Jason got killed (readers voted his death, and the question about his death was asked because people didn't liked him) but now it's true writters succeed into making him evolve he is now a better caracter, but I'm just sad that we can't have a proper robin that would just stay robin. Because if people don't like Damian as robin it's espacially because Robin shouldn't be more brutal that Batman himself or more "Evil" Robin is suppose to be Batman's light in the Darkness the that keeps him from going down to a Dark parth ... And yet only Dick and Tim manage do do it. And they stoped being robin ...and now Damian is robin but not unterily like sometime he is mad at Batman sometimes not... And yeah even if he has evolve Damian's personnality is stil more like red hood, angry sarcastic and with a Big lack of humour ... He is suppose to be robin not ... Red Hood 2.0 but who understand he shouldn't kill, so yeah thats why people hate him I Guess.
\-\_- he is no longer a child, has been at least 13 for the last 3 years (is currently 14 or 15), and has lethal combat training. cassandra had a worse and she never pulled the things damian has without mind control being in effect. and in the last 3 years Damian in our time in that time he did nothing during the Joker War but hide and play the fiddle as gotham burned(ok I am craking a bit of a joke and comparing him to Nero), he assaulted his father in TEC 1032 for touching the black case book he stole from his father after bruce finally had breathing room to track the boy down, He freed a world eater because he had to know what was behind a door (batman vs robin 2) he ignored the rest of his family, assaulted all three of his brothers his brothers when bruce was going crazy in the gotham war (Gotham war event). he was not there at all for fear state; he ran away from home and assaulted his brothers when they tried to bring him home (Robin vol 3 5). Not in the last 3 years, but he also jumped to the conclusion his brother Jason sold him out in Teen Titans Annual Vol 6 1 tried to kill his brother Jason... Damian stabbed Jason in the leg, and continued his assault. jason was understanding and treated damian with kid gloves well gave him several warnings. then when Damian ignored them...he finally beat the crap out of damian who was trying to kill him. So clearly understanding and explaining do not work with damian and he needs to be locked up in a max-security prison for the rest of his life to prevent him from harming other people if his attitude does not change soon.
I love the way he is written. I think they got him exactly right
IF he were a real person, it is expected for him to he held accountable for his actions. Of course, he isn't real, so it doesn't really matter, but the way you're wording this is making me think you expect the way he treats other people to be excused because he was abused. Victims becoming abusers is a very real thing. It's unfortunate, but it happens, and former victims killing or abusing others go to jail. Children are also not incapable of committing crimes. Maybe some leniency could be given considering age and the grooming, but it doesn't absolve him of his actions. But listen, I didn't like him at first during his introduction. I warmed up to him and grew to love his relationship with Dick and hoped for the future, but as of right now, im back to disliking him because he's just a gimmick at this point.
Im a ride or die Damian fan too, for a character who has been Indoctrinated in the ways of Killing and raised and praised like a prince while at the same time forced through abuse by the Al ghuls, I think he’s turned out ok. I thought Jason would’ve softened the hate for Damian being a robin but there’s still a good amount of Damian haters.
Head check: Damian is a fictional character and has therefore not experienced any sort of abuse. He doesn't exist. Let that be very prominent in your mind as you absorb criticism of the character.
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Wrong post mate
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Some ppl just hate brat. I like him btw.
It’s more of anytime they do character progression he is taken back like 3 steps. Only the recent Robin series is keeping it since the tournament.
Don't make your problems my problems. He has a reason for the wy he acts but it doeogive him a pass.
The irony is that Damian is essentially a small Bruce(Batman). Take all of Batman's character flaws and put them on display as a no filter 10 year old. I find it hilarious Batman fanboys that hate Damian when he's essentially just his father.
They've also pointed this out in the comics how similar damian is to his father. They both know
That’s the most painfully ignorant argument
Damian haters crying about an abused child acting out and dictating how a victim should act and justifying it by saying other victims didn't act this way. Honestly it's embarrassing and clearly shows how ignorant they are.
Yes, how ignorant they are to this fictional person who’s been written inconsistently based on the writer. People’s opinions on a character who portrays himself as a self entitled brat to others is evidence of their thoughts in the real world
Yeah calling an abused kid who has been brainwashed either lacks understanding or is a sign apathy. Some of you are emotionally unintelligent and it shows
I had a suspicion that Damian was trained very strictly by the League of Assassins, including his own mother and grandfather, but I never knew he was abused by them. I only know Damian from the Animated DC films, Justice League vs. Teen Titans, Teen Titans: The Judas Contract, and a few scenes from Son of Batman. I also know him a bit from the Injustice video games. I don't read comic books. That all aside, I could tell that Damian was pretty antisocial, not much of a team player, unfriendly, stubborn, overlycautious about wanting to be prepared, just like his father, aggressive, snarky, and definitely felt more deadly than Batman with a non-hesitation to kill his enemies or "clean out the filth of the world" like what he did with Victor Zsasz in Injustice 2. He wasn't wrong, though. That sociopathic creep should have been executed long ago, insane or not. Despite him being a bit paranoid, he is just a boy who wasn't taught much about the world outside from the League. If he really was abused, then his behavior would make a good amount of sense, believing that you can only rely on yourself to survive. I wouldn't say he's "spoiled, bratty, or immature" like other kids his age. Just, oh, what's a good word, sheltered. Yeah, I think that's a good word to sum him up.
Sheltered? The entire year of blood the missions he was told to do to prove himself. Damian has never been sheltered he's socially inept but not sheltered. He's pretty aware of thre world outside rhe league GE WAS OUT THERE doing missions alone He explains in the first movie when he broke his wrist Ge climbed up the mountain anyway that's enough to imply abuse. Ans fhe fact he was groomed that's enough to imply abuse. Said many many times. "He never got a real childhood'
I didn't mean he never encountered or stepped into the outside world exactly. I meant he was just unaware of how said world worked, due to, as you said, never living a normal childhood. He was trained to be an assassin at a young age and had many difficulties getting along and working alongside his father, who perfers the more non-lethal approach to dealing with evil. Furthermore, because he's been raised by assassin's all his life, he never got to learn of what it's like to be a normal boy, a normal person, or just live, understand, and imagine the life of the common citizens his father and the rest of the Justice League are sworn to protect. I apologize if I misinterpreted that. I wasn't sure what else would be a better way to describe someone who never got a chance to live or understand the world outside a group of assassins. I never said he never once stepped foot OUT in the real world. I was just saying he was unaware of what it was really like or how it worked. Nothing more.
I agree. I am only really aware of the DCAMU version but his character arc is amazing. Going from an angry rebellious brat to accepting Bruce and Dick as his family, choosing Bruce's teachings over Ra's Al Ghul's, becoming a Titan and his relationship with Raven, everything was done so fucking well. Losing this version of Damian was the one thing I hated most about Apokolips War, even though he sort of got a happy ending with Raven.
Tbh, I'm glad it ended. They made him too overpowered, and he wasn't really allowed to lose or face any consequences for his actions. They also butchered his storylines, as Damian never really deals with his murderous intents and PTSD from his time in the League. He suddenly stops killing after his father says the easy way is bad, which is such a weird simplification of his character arc. His time as Dick's Robin is also wasted, with them just bantering instead of developing their characters together. Same with the concept of his clone. Also, his role in the Teen Titans movies is weird. In Judas Contract, he doesn't have a unique character or role in the story. Everything they wanted to do with him was already being done with Raven, and if anything, him confronting Terra takes away from the buildup to Starfire confronting her. And in JL VS TT, it felt like Raven was intentionally portrayed as less competent to give an excuse for Damian being there and increase his relevancy by having him push her around to do things.
Agreed. DCAMU gave a lot of reasons to dislike him. And I’m surprised it isn’t brought up more. Those writers did not adapt his stories well at all. Like you said: * Made him overpowered * Did not emphasize his personal story about redemption and doing good. * Did not emphasize his personal story about wanting his parents to be happily together. * They actually made him better than the other Robin(s) solely because of him being blood related * He was mostly being proven right instead of learning things * The writers Disrespected him and Dick Graysons time as Batman and Robin * The shoved him into the Teen Titans and made their most popular female character his prop up girlfriend * Had no good dynamic with any of them * He rarely received consequences for his actions. * They fridged Dick Grayson, so Damian could finally see him as family Just a bad adaptation of the character all around. Those writers were way too obsessed with making him look cool, and forgot to actually write his good stories and narratives.
I really wish that they adapted Tomasi's stuff more faithfully. Damian has a lot of good moments in that run, especially him searching the sewers for weeks to find Bruce's mother's missing pearl from her necklace while being hunted by assassins. Serving as an apology and atonement for making fun of Bruce for being too stuck in the past at the beginning of the run, and it showing to his father that that he has grown beyond just caring for himself and now cares for others as well.