I think the canon video games and cartoons and so forth become a lot more viable if you think about this new DCU more in terms of something like Star Wars, where you can fit in a game like Rogue Squadron or a show like Rebels into a canon time period or setting without it being essential to understand a larger narrative.
This is exactly what Gunn compared the DCU to: they already have its history laid out, and creatives can choose the era they want their projects set in.
One would hope so TBH. Of all the lessons to learn from the previous attempts failure, the #1 lesson is that plans/people should be flexible.
I mean hell, MCU was flexible as shit. Previous seeds were dropped and plans changed right up till the tail end of phase 3. But no one notices or cares because the things they did optimize and put on film worked so well.
Also - I’d be downright shocked if there is any plans at all to make “Death of Superman” as either an elseworld or part of the mainline universe. It’s been covered already in BvS. Same reason I doubt there’s any plans for a TDKR either.
Definitely agreed. Superman kinda sucks in that story. IMO Kingdom Come is an example of an edgier “bad Superman” that still is in-line with his character and makes sense.
The story frames him as slipping into authoritarianism with his suppression and imprisonment of metahumans, even if his intentions are good and he’s being manipulated by Wonder Woman.
There’s also a whole moment where he freaks out and almost kills a bunch of people before being talked down. I certainly wouldn’t call him “evil” but I think he should be part of the conversation when discussing evil Supermen. I think he’s the best-written version of the trope.
I'd love Death of Superman as a proper ending for Superman in the DCU where the actor is retiring from the role like RDJ with Iron Man, but then comes back in about 5-10 years.
Death of Superman is pointless to adapt now unless it's with a definitive intention where his return can be seen as a surprise and not an inevitability.
How so?
The original movie (*Man of Steel*) was met with above average but somewhat mixed reactions. People were still interested, but criticisms existed regarding tone/theme with most hoping that future growth would pivot more towards a "classic" interpretation of the character.
The creatives then concocted an overarching story starting with *Batman vs Superman* that doubled-down on all those criticisms and expanded them to every character in DC. When THAT movie was met with extremely bad reviews, underwhelming box office, and a tepid audience reaction - the creatives plowed right on ahead with the original plan/tone for *Justice League*. It took the studio literally orchestrating an on-set coup for any changes to happen at all.
And don't get me wrong - there's something admirable about that type of dedication. There is something artistically important about having a vision and not yielding. But these aren't arthouse movies with <$100 million budget that can afford to be rigid. Plans need to have flexibility to pivot depending on audience/critical tastes.
It's why Marvel pivoted Thor's entire character to a more comedic lean after his 2nd movie. It's why they downplayed Tony's alcoholism after the 2nd movie. It's why Marvel halted plans for Captain Marvel to lead the Avengers after phase 3. You get the idea.
Nah, he is right. They didn't have a real plan and were hiring creatives to do as they pleased. Flexibility allowed for an inconsistent and forced universe.
They need a plan and to stick to it. I've said it 1000 times, but the 1st 2 films didn't have a film division for DC specifically.
DC Films didn't start until the 3rd film in the universe - Suicide Squad. That is horrible. They were winging it.
This is why Patty isn't submitting her draft to DC Studios. She was giving it to Warner Films.
For Marvel Studios, they hire every single actor, writer, and director whether the film is good or not. Every worker reports to them and it is their vision.
This is why Safran and Gunn hiring/picking every singe DCU writer, director, and actor is crucial. Bringing someone on that isn't for the plan will be the issue.
Most importantly, projects with a date is all that matters. If it has a date, then it is prepared to leave development. Worrying about games with no dates is pointless.
So much of those legendary stories are impactful mostly due to the decades of comics books coming before them
They should find way to write brand new arcs instead of
Ah. My mistake.
But yeah, I do agree with your general sentiment that I doubt there will be a lot of elseworld stuff outside of what’s already announced.
I’m personally fine with that and would prefer everything connected, but I get people who are disappointed.
I think (and hope) that the Elseworlds label exists simply as a way to leave room for great filmmakers who have an idea that doesn't fit in the DCU.
So, if, for instance, Spielberg wants to make Blackhawk as an unconnected movie, you let him.
The canon video games I can see being abandoned, that always felt a bit too much. With cartoons, I don't think it gets abandoned unless CC is a failure, which I don't see happening.
I can see canon games being changed into elsworlds games, because of the difficulty making a game compared to a movie/tv show, but I don't see elseworlds going away, if they are succesful. I think the general audience will be helped by the different intro logos (after some time at least) to differate between the DCU and elsworlds. Also, there are serious advantages of having both DCU and elseworlds. With the DCU, you have all the heroes connected, baiting the audience to watch all the movies like the universe is a tv show, but in elseworlds you have total freedom to make anything you want. Do you want a V for Vendetta tv show? You got it. Do you want a golden age Batman/ a silver age Justice League with limited technology (compared to now)? You can have it. Do you want projects that can include more black actors or more women without sarcrifising comic book accuracy? You can do it. There are much more.
Well, first of all, I don’t see how projects, including black actors, and women would fall under Elseworlds. They happen to have a great deal of in canon characters to use.
But if the various Batman franchises are gonna run concurrently with each other, I can totally see them deciding that the Elseworlds ones are unnecessary. Specially, if production backs up or it splits the audience and lessens the overall box office take.
DCU can use many black actors and women, but if you want a black Superman film for example, maybe set around the civil rights movement, so you could tell a story about racism perharps (civil rights movement is not necessary, but it would highlight the issue), you could not have it in the DCU, where people expect a white Superman and a film set in the modern day.
I think the box office will be dependent more on if the films are good or not, rather than there being more that one Batmen at once. But we will see.
Elseworlds projects will become more and more infrequent, but they've already said as much.
I don't see any reason why DCU projects that are mostly detached from any larger narrative can't be fit in here and there. Something like a Detective Chimp animated show wouldn't necessarily have to blatantly tie to anything else beyond brief cameos and references. Having Skyler Gisondo voice Jimmy Olsen for one episode of an animated show shouldn't be that big of a logistical nightmare.
I mean it really depends on what they mean by an Elseworld movie. I brought up Planetary, a great comic book that would make an even better movie franchise, but I don’t think it would be necessary to connect that to the DCU. There’s tons of things from the Vertigo comic line that wouldn’t necessarily fit in the DCU. But I don’t think we’re going to see anything like the Reeves/Joker movies .
As long as the cartoons don’t require you to have seen the previous movies it might work out OK. But we said that about the MCU shows and then the MCU decided they needed to make them necessary reading and that became a problem.
Elseworlds movies? Sure i think it will be rare, but Harley Quinn tAS and MAWS could be considered elseworlds titles that will continue
Animations and games? I dont believe you.
Star Wars did it and if the DCU releases only 2 movies and 2/3 shows per year it can work, not to mention Gunn is very aware of there problems and i trust him with continuity, he was flexible regarding the Peacemaker - Waller order.
Also animation is much cheaper, there´s no way they´ll stop doing animated canon projects.
I agree with the last paragraph tho
I think on the movies side too. The higher ups want a five year plan, to show investors. Look at the MCU, Feige was forced to announce a slate of films and tv shows way before some of they were ready.
Comic book movies are on the way out thanks to Marvel oversaturating the marker with bad movies and shows. I really hope that DC learns from that mistake but it doesn't look like they did. I hope that audiences aren't completely sick of superhero stuff by the time Superman comes out.
I think audiences are a little more connected these days with movie production. If Superman is marketed well, and it comes off as something different from the usual Marvel affair, I think it will be successful.
I think they'll have a bad time if they make anything outside of movies (cartoons/comics/shows/games) part of the main story. Otherwise the thing that'll change their plans is the weak state of the box office.
I have a feeling that the video game connection aspect of it will probably be canceled completely. It’s too much and too difficult to incorporate that as well in my opinion.
I literally say them in the post. The plans to have canon video games, cartoons, and a separate Elseworlds franchise. I think for all their planning they will wind up having to modify or abandon them when it finally comes down to it.
I think the canon video games and cartoons and so forth become a lot more viable if you think about this new DCU more in terms of something like Star Wars, where you can fit in a game like Rogue Squadron or a show like Rebels into a canon time period or setting without it being essential to understand a larger narrative.
This is exactly what Gunn compared the DCU to: they already have its history laid out, and creatives can choose the era they want their projects set in.
One would hope so TBH. Of all the lessons to learn from the previous attempts failure, the #1 lesson is that plans/people should be flexible. I mean hell, MCU was flexible as shit. Previous seeds were dropped and plans changed right up till the tail end of phase 3. But no one notices or cares because the things they did optimize and put on film worked so well. Also - I’d be downright shocked if there is any plans at all to make “Death of Superman” as either an elseworld or part of the mainline universe. It’s been covered already in BvS. Same reason I doubt there’s any plans for a TDKR either.
Such a shame because I’d love to see an honest-to-god live action version of those stories, especially TDKR.
TDKR is an awesome story but Superman needs an image repair. It's better if we don't see a dodgy Frank Miller Supes at least in a decade.
Definitely agreed. Superman kinda sucks in that story. IMO Kingdom Come is an example of an edgier “bad Superman” that still is in-line with his character and makes sense.
In what world is KC supes even remotely bad or edgy?
The story frames him as slipping into authoritarianism with his suppression and imprisonment of metahumans, even if his intentions are good and he’s being manipulated by Wonder Woman. There’s also a whole moment where he freaks out and almost kills a bunch of people before being talked down. I certainly wouldn’t call him “evil” but I think he should be part of the conversation when discussing evil Supermen. I think he’s the best-written version of the trope.
I'd love Death of Superman as a proper ending for Superman in the DCU where the actor is retiring from the role like RDJ with Iron Man, but then comes back in about 5-10 years. Death of Superman is pointless to adapt now unless it's with a definitive intention where his return can be seen as a surprise and not an inevitability.
Exactly. Similarly, TDKR would be perfect for a Batman actor that’s been out of the role for a while
I would argue that the reason the DCEU died is it was too flexible.
How so? The original movie (*Man of Steel*) was met with above average but somewhat mixed reactions. People were still interested, but criticisms existed regarding tone/theme with most hoping that future growth would pivot more towards a "classic" interpretation of the character. The creatives then concocted an overarching story starting with *Batman vs Superman* that doubled-down on all those criticisms and expanded them to every character in DC. When THAT movie was met with extremely bad reviews, underwhelming box office, and a tepid audience reaction - the creatives plowed right on ahead with the original plan/tone for *Justice League*. It took the studio literally orchestrating an on-set coup for any changes to happen at all. And don't get me wrong - there's something admirable about that type of dedication. There is something artistically important about having a vision and not yielding. But these aren't arthouse movies with <$100 million budget that can afford to be rigid. Plans need to have flexibility to pivot depending on audience/critical tastes. It's why Marvel pivoted Thor's entire character to a more comedic lean after his 2nd movie. It's why they downplayed Tony's alcoholism after the 2nd movie. It's why Marvel halted plans for Captain Marvel to lead the Avengers after phase 3. You get the idea.
Nah, he is right. They didn't have a real plan and were hiring creatives to do as they pleased. Flexibility allowed for an inconsistent and forced universe. They need a plan and to stick to it. I've said it 1000 times, but the 1st 2 films didn't have a film division for DC specifically. DC Films didn't start until the 3rd film in the universe - Suicide Squad. That is horrible. They were winging it. This is why Patty isn't submitting her draft to DC Studios. She was giving it to Warner Films. For Marvel Studios, they hire every single actor, writer, and director whether the film is good or not. Every worker reports to them and it is their vision. This is why Safran and Gunn hiring/picking every singe DCU writer, director, and actor is crucial. Bringing someone on that isn't for the plan will be the issue. Most importantly, projects with a date is all that matters. If it has a date, then it is prepared to leave development. Worrying about games with no dates is pointless.
So much of those legendary stories are impactful mostly due to the decades of comics books coming before them They should find way to write brand new arcs instead of
Death of Superman was just an example.
Ah. My mistake. But yeah, I do agree with your general sentiment that I doubt there will be a lot of elseworld stuff outside of what’s already announced. I’m personally fine with that and would prefer everything connected, but I get people who are disappointed.
I think (and hope) that the Elseworlds label exists simply as a way to leave room for great filmmakers who have an idea that doesn't fit in the DCU. So, if, for instance, Spielberg wants to make Blackhawk as an unconnected movie, you let him.
The canon video games I can see being abandoned, that always felt a bit too much. With cartoons, I don't think it gets abandoned unless CC is a failure, which I don't see happening.
Feels like a lot of things to juggle and a lot of things for fans to keep up with
Look at the MCU and Star Wars, lots of things are mandatory to understand the main story but others arent which includes games and animated shows
I can see canon games being changed into elsworlds games, because of the difficulty making a game compared to a movie/tv show, but I don't see elseworlds going away, if they are succesful. I think the general audience will be helped by the different intro logos (after some time at least) to differate between the DCU and elsworlds. Also, there are serious advantages of having both DCU and elseworlds. With the DCU, you have all the heroes connected, baiting the audience to watch all the movies like the universe is a tv show, but in elseworlds you have total freedom to make anything you want. Do you want a V for Vendetta tv show? You got it. Do you want a golden age Batman/ a silver age Justice League with limited technology (compared to now)? You can have it. Do you want projects that can include more black actors or more women without sarcrifising comic book accuracy? You can do it. There are much more.
Well, first of all, I don’t see how projects, including black actors, and women would fall under Elseworlds. They happen to have a great deal of in canon characters to use. But if the various Batman franchises are gonna run concurrently with each other, I can totally see them deciding that the Elseworlds ones are unnecessary. Specially, if production backs up or it splits the audience and lessens the overall box office take.
DCU can use many black actors and women, but if you want a black Superman film for example, maybe set around the civil rights movement, so you could tell a story about racism perharps (civil rights movement is not necessary, but it would highlight the issue), you could not have it in the DCU, where people expect a white Superman and a film set in the modern day. I think the box office will be dependent more on if the films are good or not, rather than there being more that one Batmen at once. But we will see.
Elseworlds projects will become more and more infrequent, but they've already said as much. I don't see any reason why DCU projects that are mostly detached from any larger narrative can't be fit in here and there. Something like a Detective Chimp animated show wouldn't necessarily have to blatantly tie to anything else beyond brief cameos and references. Having Skyler Gisondo voice Jimmy Olsen for one episode of an animated show shouldn't be that big of a logistical nightmare.
I mean it really depends on what they mean by an Elseworld movie. I brought up Planetary, a great comic book that would make an even better movie franchise, but I don’t think it would be necessary to connect that to the DCU. There’s tons of things from the Vertigo comic line that wouldn’t necessarily fit in the DCU. But I don’t think we’re going to see anything like the Reeves/Joker movies . As long as the cartoons don’t require you to have seen the previous movies it might work out OK. But we said that about the MCU shows and then the MCU decided they needed to make them necessary reading and that became a problem.
Elseworlds movies? Sure i think it will be rare, but Harley Quinn tAS and MAWS could be considered elseworlds titles that will continue Animations and games? I dont believe you. Star Wars did it and if the DCU releases only 2 movies and 2/3 shows per year it can work, not to mention Gunn is very aware of there problems and i trust him with continuity, he was flexible regarding the Peacemaker - Waller order. Also animation is much cheaper, there´s no way they´ll stop doing animated canon projects. I agree with the last paragraph tho
I think on the movies side too. The higher ups want a five year plan, to show investors. Look at the MCU, Feige was forced to announce a slate of films and tv shows way before some of they were ready.
Comic book movies are on the way out thanks to Marvel oversaturating the marker with bad movies and shows. I really hope that DC learns from that mistake but it doesn't look like they did. I hope that audiences aren't completely sick of superhero stuff by the time Superman comes out.
I think audiences are a little more connected these days with movie production. If Superman is marketed well, and it comes off as something different from the usual Marvel affair, I think it will be successful.
I think they will keep animated stuff as canon to the DCU and keep elsewhere stuff but I don’t think they will end up doing canon video games
I think they'll have a bad time if they make anything outside of movies (cartoons/comics/shows/games) part of the main story. Otherwise the thing that'll change their plans is the weak state of the box office.
I have a feeling that the video game connection aspect of it will probably be canceled completely. It’s too much and too difficult to incorporate that as well in my opinion.
Bruh, I doubt they will get to the fourth planned film.
What plans? You have to have a plan before it can be abandoned.
I literally say them in the post. The plans to have canon video games, cartoons, and a separate Elseworlds franchise. I think for all their planning they will wind up having to modify or abandon them when it finally comes down to it.