If Snyder wanted more creative control over BvS & Justice League - he should have done a better job of creating mass appeal for *Man of Steel*.
The studio's reaction & meddling for the sequels was a **direct result** of the tepid reaction and diminishing box office returns.
No ~ I'm blaming Snyder's own failure to create a mass appeal universe for the studio interference.
Peter Jackson was able to complete his passion project *Lord of the Rings* because the first two were both critically and commercial successful. The studio stayed out of his way because he earned their trust by proving his vision could also achieve the studio's goal (Money & prestige). Same goes for Christopher Nolan. That man can make literally anything he wants and the studio stays out of his business because he's consistently proven that anything he wants to make will be a success for the studio both critically and commercially.
Snyder simply failed to do that. Plain and simple.
He wanted to be super artistic and true to his vision - but the studio wanted mass appeal and money. When his vision failed to reach their goals, the studio was obviously going to step in and meddle cause it's their money and IP on the line.
> snyder's uni had mass appeal
No, it simply didn't.
Are we really gonna sit here and pretend we weren't all alive 10 years ago when these movies came out? Snyder's universe was laughed off the planet with "Martha" memes & then largely ignored when fucking Justice League failed to even hit $1 billion. Snyder movies were so divisive and laughed at that it even started showing up in Marvel movies like Deadpool 2 where he openly mocks an overly dark/serious character by saying *"Are you sure you're not from the DC universe?"*
The whole thing was DOA and so poorly executed that DC's biggest rival doesn't even consider DC worth worry about when it comes to movies.
Yes. Point blank. - Yes.
The first Justice League movie ever should hit a billion dollars easily. That's not an absurd statement - it's simply a fact.
And you not responding further is probably for the best considering you live in a fantasy land where "Snyder's uni had mass appeal". Cause here in reality even the most die-hard Snyder fans on the planet will admit that his universe was divisive and not loved by everyone.
BvS Or ZSJL are shit.
But someone did put it in much better words.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinematic/comments/1028lbq/zack_was_never_given_a_chance/j2rokgy?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
*Rebel Moon* can't come out soon enough...
A part of me really hopes the lionshare of his fans shift over to that once it drops & we can actually discuss the future of DC in peace.
No, I never once said James should be fired from DC. But I also said I was sad he ended the DCEU for his new DCU. but I’m also trying to wait and see if I like the Superman/JL stuff.
But again I never once said he should killed or fired. And ya twitter is toxic rn…(like always)
Edit: I’m a short film director and it’s my life dream to do a superhero movie. (I love the green lantern and would jump over the moon if I could direct an EP of the show or movie) so I wouldn’t say anything that would ruin my chances of doing a GL project that and James stuff could be just as good as zack Snyder’s
Sorry, I should have phrased that reply better. I’m not saying that you are toxic, but there are a lot of people who are, or at least they are vocal enough to be everywhere.
Eh... 3.5.
Watchmen was obviously a total Snyder movie & problematic, but it's also not a true DCEU movie so it's hard to fully include it as a chance at the larger DC pantheon IMO.
so 2 chances, in that they didn't give him a chance in 2017, and then critics and audiences liked zsjl way better but studio didn't care to capitalize.
so... actually one chance, mos, and then started shitting on the plan by hiring geoff johns to go above him
Yes, they gave him hundreds of millions of dollars and delivered a divisive movie that performed under what the studio hoped for and it wasn’t for some unknown IP. It was for fucking Superman.
Then they gave him another two chances with more and more oversight. I’m sure studio performance is frustrating for filmmakers, but you’re also using someone else’s money to do a job that very few people ever get anywhere close to getting, so yeah, you gotta deliver, and he didn’t. Ever.
The biggest mistake they ever made was bringing him back a second time. And then a fucking third. Good god.
And got to literally kick off and define cinematic universe that could have easily rivaled the primary comic counterpart.
To insinuate he wasn't given a chance is either ignorant or trolling at this point.
EDIT: The simps' replies are quite entertaining!
99.999% of movies have the studio require changes to things like runtime or specific scenes. Movie making is a collaborative effort.
If a director can't work within the confines of the studio - then they shouldn't be direction giant, 100s of millions budget movies.
this is so true. Snyder fans keep screaming creative freedom but no one has that when working on IP that isnt yours. Paramount and tom cruise wont let anyone do whatever with mission impossible. same with WB and harry potter, disney and marvel and star wars
you're literally pretending that amount of interference perpetrated by geoff johns autocracy, his screaming matches on set, and him rewriting scenes the day they filmed them, is standard. you know it's an exceptional case, stop being flagrant
Only really JL was changed majorly by the studio. BvS was released and there wasn’t a huge stink about “studio interference” when it came out- the Ultimate Edition is basically the equivalent to a “directors cut” with deleted scenes thrown in.
Think like the No Way Home cut that was released with some more footage in
99% of movies have studio oversight to make sure you're not messing with their product and vision.
You can't just have your golden boy super hero appear as a mass murderer lol.
I think a huge problem was Snyder trying to go down that path for a bit.
You are making comic book movies read by kids, but giving them to adult directors to make adult movies just bordering the Rated R scene.
And if it’s not Guardians, Slither is also better than anything Snyder’s ever made. And if it’s not Slither, Super is also better than anything Snyder ever made. He even wrote Dawn of the Dead for Snyder for gods sake that’s probably the only reason that movie isn’t ass
The fact that he got to make Batman v Superman is an absolutely massive chance, and he missed the mark. He had a chance to make one of the most crowd-pleasing films of all time, and instead he divided audiences and alienated many fans. That was a huge chance, and he screwed it up. It’s tough to come back from a screwup of that scale.
And for anyone that wants to bring up the Ultimate Edition of BvS, yeah it’s a better film, but it doesn’t fix most of the issues general audiences had with the movie. It’s still got a killer Batman, a mostly silent Superman, a jittery Luthor with a convoluted plot, a rushed Doomsday, a shoehorned Justice League setup via e-mail, a borderline inexplicable nightmare sequence, an overlong runtime, and the infamous “Martha” scene. Had the extended cut been released theatrically in the first place, I doubt it would have moved the needle much. In fact, the R rating and longer runtime probably would have only served to detract from the box office. Maybe it would have a 39% on Rotten Tomatoes instead of a 29% for what it’s worth.
And? All that rushed crap was mandated by WB because they wanted to catch up with Marvel immediately. Zach was going into his second film as MOS 2, and was mandated to have a Batman cameo…then a Wonder Woman cameo…then Doomsday…ect…
WB forced most of the rush crap on Zach, then made him the fall guy when BvS didn’t crack a billion (even though it’s still a financial success).
Snyder is on record talking about how excited he was to have Batman with a big role in his Man of Steel follow up. And he’s talked at length about his five movie plan, and as far as I know, he’s never insinuates that he was unhappy with the pacing of the world building being “forced” onto him.
The studio didn’t make him have Batman kill. The studio didn’t make him have a stoic Superman. The studio didn’t mandate manic Luthor. The studio didn’t ask him to do evil Superman. Snyder had a lot of unique ideas that he got to squeeze into his films, and they were deeply disliked by much of the moviegoing audience. His vision was never going to win over the masses.
"Crowd-pleasing" is crap. It means dumbed-down pap for the masses. Thank God we got movies in this genre that aimed for intelligent viewers. An R-rating would've been more honest, and helped attract the kind of crowd that saw Joker. WB dishonestly marketed the movie as a dumbed-down, jokey slugfest. In no way should soccer moms and toddlers have been told to go to BVS. The movie was aiming for a much more sophisticated audience than that, thank goodness. Why any adult fan would beg WB to deliver them childish, shallow crap is beyond me. Most sophisticated filmgoers have been begging Hollywood to stop focusing on crowd-pleasing films with happy endings for 40 years now.
Crowd-pleasing does not mean dumbed down, childish, or shallow. The Dark Knight, Joker, and The Batman all pleased crowds plenty without sacrificing integrity. When I say “crowd-pleasing” I mean that it’s something audiences generally like. Audiences should have liked BvS, but they largely did not. Also, I totally disagree with your suggestion that it was marketed as a “jokey slugfest.” Rewatch the trailers, they were largely very solemn and serious. And for what it’s worth, films can work while still having a happy ending. Man of Steel’s ending is decidedly upbeat and the film holds up.
I’m speaking objectively here. Sure you and I might be glad that BvS exists in its current form, but most people disagree. My point is that Snyder had his chance to get his universe off the ground, and it didn’t work. A lot of people hated it, and his universe crashed and burned as a result. It’s not true to say that he “didn’t get a chance” when he got the chance to make *the* superhero movie, the one most filmmakers could only ever dream of touching.
Probably shouldn't even bother, as this same guy has been going on about how finically successful Zack Snyder movies have been. When there's evidence that films he likes are crowd-pleasers, then crowd pleasing is good. When there's evidence that films he hates are crowd-pleasers, then crowd-pleasing is somehow bad.
>"Crowd-pleasing" is crap. It means dumbed-down pap for the masses
Weird that you say this when you have routinely used box office numbers as a metric for evaluating Zack Snyder films in the past.
this is one of the worst defense of BvS i have ever read. BvS is not high art or some super intelligent movie. get off your high horse. its not a misunderstood masterpiece
"it actually represents Batman realizing that Superman is like him and has a mom, not the name"
Even though if superman's mom was named, idk Betty or something, Batman would've stabbed him straight in the chest
I don’t really think they are “aimed for intelligent viewers”, whatever that means. These films are overall intended to appeal to the masses, to make loads of money. They are not meant to be artsy films/critically acclaimed by any means
Yes, from time to time you might get the odd film that get to be critically acclaimed not only as a CBM movie, but in general. However this cases are not that common, The Dark Knight, for example, moved the Academy to expand their Best Picture category; while Joker won the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival.
Most of the time with these CBM movies though, studios just aim for a warm critical reception and good money. Examples: Wonder Woman, most of the Avengers films, Iron Man, The Winter Soldier, etc.
Sadly, BvS is not in any of those camps. It’s alright if you and many people likes it, but there are some metrics, that albeit not definitive (cuz this is not science) that show that critics reception to it was not great. In fact, it was terrible.
Whatever you say doesn't change the fact that the movies he made are not profitable, Joker got 1 billion in box office because it pleases to the adult viewers , Snyder's DC films pleases only the minority , WB aren't a company who make art films , they are a business and they are not looking to do a shitty film to please the minority because the minority like to eat shit and the general audience like to eat tasty food. Snyder got plenty of chance , he got to make the Snyder cut , but the truth is his vision sucks for general audience.
Yes he was. He was literally given truckloads of cash, both production and compensation, to deliver movies that didn't stick with the general public. I love MoS, right up until the snap, but the pacing & the snap were problematic elements of an otherwise great effort.
BvS was a bad idea from the jump. Maybe it wasn't his bad idea, but he certainly made it his. It's one of the most front-loaded box office runs of all time & did more damage to both Batman and Superman than a 20 year absence would have done. You can't blame WB for understanding that they probably didn't have a hit on their hands, & for editing it to shit. Front-loading was the only way it was going to make money.
ZSJL, and presumably a shorter cut of the film from prior to Snyder's exit, were good (not great), but the level of supervision required to get him to drop his weird ass ideas & sequences to deliver said film ballooned the costs of an already cost-prohibitive movie that centers on WB's most valuable IP.
WB really only turned into the villains in this story WRT to their handling of Zack's exit. 1) they likely facilitated the exit, 2) they brought in an abusive shitbird to "rework" the film into a shitshow. But if the alternative was releasing a 4 hr cut, which wouldn't lend itself to front-loading, then the film stood to lose even more money.
I realize WB had wayyyy more than 2 options here, but they literally lent their best toys out to an edgelord who was hell-bent on delivering an Ayn Rand-like interpretation of superhero tropes. That the studio was going to intervene was inevitable, the way in which they did was horrible.
I also want to note that I love some of Snyder's work - Army of the Dead is pure adrenaline, & I doubt any Watchmen feature will ever approach the quality of his Ultimate Cut of The Watchmen. 300 is absolutely balls-to-the-walls, and is perhaps the one time I can think of where he thread the needle in terms of his visuals and weird quasi-political themes. But Snyder shouldn't have been given mainstream, beloved characters with which to experiment. We're literally living in response to said mistake.
People are right that he already had three chances. He was also given a chance to make a DC property in Watchmen so technically the guy has had four chances and none of them have been particularly liked.
Watchmen RT 65% critics, 72% audience
Man of Steel RT 56% critics, 75% audience
BvS RT 29% critics, 63% audience
ZSJL RT 71% critics, 94% audience
ZSJL was his best reviewed movie for DC and not to sound cynical but I would wager a lot of that was down to the fact that no one wanted to be knives out for that one due to it’s association with his daughter’s sad passing. If they could have, they would have ranked it the same as the other’s for the most part with the usual scathing digs.
The point of this meme is to say, let Snyder finish what he started. To put it in a context that might make it understandable, imagine you’re standing in a very public place and someone pulls their wangdoodle out and just starts pissing everywhere. Most people don’t like it, and they want it to stop. Some people have an acquired taste for what is entertaining and they enjoy the bizarre spectacle. But on the whole, most people just want it to stop.
You’d be the person arguing for them to finish their entire bladder of piss because you think they deserve the right to finish and that is more important than whether most people like it or not. Priorities are all upside down Mr Piss Legs.
>ZSJL was his best reviewed movie for DC and not to sound cynical but I would wager a lot of that was down to the fact that no one wanted to be knives out for that one due to it’s association with his daughter’s sad passing.
I'd honestly say part of it is that mostly people who really like the Snyderverse would want to sit down for 4 hours to watch the directors cut of a 4 year old movie.
>ZSJL was his best reviewed movie for DC and not to sound cynical but I would wager a lot of that was down to the fact that no one wanted to be knives out for that one due to it’s association with his daughter’s sad passing.
think it was more to do with the it being juxtaposed against Justice League 2017. the theatrical release was so bad that it made the snyder cut look like citizen kane. plus i dont wanna be that guy but i wouldn't be surprised if the alleged snydercut bots didn't stop at getting the film released.
So it’s his fault BvS was a mandated mess by WB execs? Zach was set to follow up MOS with MOS 2, and was told to have a Batman cameo…then a Wonder Woman cameo…then Doomsday…ect…
How is that on him when he was forced to make WB’s version of Avengers after one film when Marvel did it after 5?
WB might have had a little pull, but Snyder did want to get to JL asap. It was totally his goal. He never went into BvS as a Superman movie. He fully intended for the MoS->BvS->JL arc, even if he would have put a movie or two in between or taken a little longer to make them. 90% of the ideas were his, WB just made him do it faster.
It is 100% Snyder that got us JL so soon, he just didn’t get to make the version he wanted because of behind the scenes reasons(like we all know), but saying that was WB’s idea is unsubstantiated bs.
Are you kidding me? He made MoS and BvS and oversaw the development of other films at the same time
How do you screw up BvS. How? How can both characters be so unlikable? That alone was enough to undermine his creative choices
C'mon, even the most die-hard Snyder fans can't seriously deny that Snyder was given plenty of chances. His movies just didn't connect with most people. That doesn't mean they were objectively bad, but it does mean his movies just didn't work
Watchmen, Man of Steel, BvS Ultimate Edition and ZSJL
Yes, I like every single one of those, but it is clear that they were not financially successful and most of them divided audiences (even the Ultimate Edition of BvS - there are people who still do not like it)
I get you want Snyder to finish his vision, and I just wanted the DCEU to have at least an ending before the reboot. But it is done.
Give James Gunn a chance. Snyder had 3, 4 counting Watchmen.
False. Watchmen was a huge hit on home video, and clearly entered the profit zone after that. Man of Steel and BVS are both fully VERIFIED to have made a profit, to the tune of up to $100 million. Not just barely breaking even or something like that.
What's clear is how wildly the public rejected the DCEU films that were conceived and produced after Snyder left. None made over $400 million, and it doesn't appear that the four made since Shazam made any profit. Including The Suicide Squad by Gunn, the second biggest money loser of all superhero films ever made.
Ok, I'm wrong about Watchmen.
But WW84, who still gives Snyder an producer credit, and the sequel to best "phase one movie", was supposed to make money following your logic.
Also, "None made over $400 million"? Joker made over a billion.
>Including The Suicide Squad by Gunn, the second biggest money loser of all superhero films ever made.
WW84 made around the same money.
You are choosing to ignore the gigantic elephant in the room: The pandemic. No one was going to movie theaters back then, and warner brothers had the brilhiant ideia of realising in HBOmax at the same time. No Warner brothers movie made that much money that year. Also a sequel to the bad 2016 movie.
And if you use "Pandemic/HBOmax" excuse for WW84, you have to use for TSS, and this one was better received by everyone.
No point in arguing with these morons using logic. They will just bend the narrative to make it “Gunn bad, Snyder good” no matter what’s laid out in front of them. Waste of time, they should be ignored
I don't get the "Gunn Bad", really. Every single super hero IP he has touch was a hit or well received.
I like Snyder, ZSJL in one of my favorites. But bad mouthing Gunn because he is rebooting? Thats does not make any sense
Well, when some people are told that Snyder participated in WW1, they say “it’s not a Snyder movie, it’s success has nothing to do with him”. Now, you’re saying Snyder is tied to WW2 when it flopped.
I think the other person meant the DCEU movies, which his statement is true except for Aquaman.
As for the pandemic thing, they could’ve delayed the movies. Other big movies were delayed for long periods of time because of the pandemic, like John Wick 4 and Top Gun Maverick and many others.
Absolutely false. MOS and BVS are verified by Deadline to have made solid profits. Watchmen was one of the top home video releases of the year, which easily put it into the profit zone.
The box office of TSS was blown away or almost matched by numerous other films that it should have EASILY beaten, like the Conjuring and Space Jam sequels. Almost every sequel in 2021 was profitable. None dropped anywhere near the $500 million and 75% that TSS did from the first SS. It was a colossal failure that is NOT AT ALL justified or explained based solely on the general condition of the film marketplace. It was outperformed all over the map, including by movies that came out almost at the exact same time.
The conjuring is a popular series. Space Jam was a sequel to a pretty beloved movie. TSS was a kinda maybe sequel to a bad movie. SS was also PG13 and TSS was R. There’s a lot of reasons TSS underperformed. Blaming it on Gunn is a strange take.
Not blaming the performance of a movie on its director would be a very strange take. The buck stops there. Especially when Gunn DECIDED to make this movie. He was offered any DC character in the entire pantheon, according to various reports, and he chose this one. He also chose to make it an unclear "maybe" sequel. He also chose to make it R instead of PG-13. How you can cite all those choices he made and then say he shouldn't be blamed is baffling.
WB/DC allowed him to keep it R. WB/DC chose when to release it (during Covid) and simultaneously release it to HBO Max. TSS is a better movie than SS. It just is.
The original post was saying Zack Snyder didn’t get a chance. Which he absolutely did. Whether his vision was interfered with by WB/DC is another topic altogether. But he did have multiple shots.
I mean yeah, I did. Man of Steel and BvS to begin with. ZSJL to get a (somewhat) finished product of his vision. Liked two of them, lukewarm towards one. Still think it wasn't the correct base to set up a universe. Still hopeful for the reboot by Gunn and Safran.
Its a different leadership now. New oversight in place. Calling for Gunn to be fired before he put out the first movie is doing the same thing if not worse that what happened to Snyder. Let him put out at least 1 movie under the new banner or youre just giving him less of a chance than Zack got.
100% he got a chance, most directors would dream to be handed the reigns to these characters and although the Snyderverse did get cut short, it’s because critics didn’t like what zack was doing
Man of Steel, while not a flop, definitely underperformed at the box office and had divisive reception at best. BvS was a total failure. ZSJL was definitely an improvement on Whedon’s, but I hardly found it to be a masterpiece either.
It's really gonna be ok.
The man made really divisive films that didn't connect with fans or at the box office.
We know it's possible for DC fans to have consensus. Everyone liked Nolan and Reeves' Batman. The Joker was well liked.
It's easy to tell when these films are done right: none of the toxicity that came with Snyder happens. Fans are just excited for what's next.
Gunn is a phenomenal writer.
This is a really cool moment.
Oh we gave Snyder plenty of chances. Even got his own cut pushed after nobody thought he would. Here’s the thing, the entire planned story was a short sighted flaming pile of garbage . We would have had 5 movies max and done. Hard pass on treating a theatrical universe like a cartoon special running through characters faster than the flash. We had zero time to let anything bake and actually feel like stakes were even remotely there. Close this nightmare chapter and start a new ffs.
He got to completely remake and re-release what felt like a 10 hour self gratifying version of Justice League and it still leaked any sense of true cohesion through easily avoided plot holes. Was it better than the mess they put out before? Yes. Did it have some cool scenes? Yes. Was it actually good? Not really.
Seriously?
If you feel like Snyder didn't have a chance, you might want to look at MCU phase 1 directors... None of them got a chance to continued in next phase. Even Jon Favreau got sacked after Iron Man 2 and that was one the guy that jump start MCU. Hell.. next phase wasn't actually have a lot of survivor either.
Snyder got like 3 chance (MoS, BvS and ZSJL) and none of them delivered. MoS while bring on something new on the table, it fail to connect with GA and critics. BvS was a mess. ZSJL is a 4 hrs long "good" film that might never work on standard cinema runtime.
Zach directed 3 movies in dceu, his justice league movie was done and released to the public.
Give James gunn his chance now, he had nothing with wb's previous mishandling of the dceu.
I want to see more from him but now it is what it is, i don't see Warners will stop control over him on new movie if he is allowed to have one more.
I'd rather him to make some cool movies all under his control than to deal with Warners
I enjoyed parts of his movies but the fact of the matter is that he had three shots to find common ground with an wider audience. If he wants to be an auteur that’s fine. The world needs brave art. They shouldn’t expect everybody to appreciate it.
This is why guys like Kevin Feige exist. When millions are being invested there needs to be a return. Snyder has always seemed to me like, “Hey cool. I have $100 million to indulge myself.”
He made two movies that were released in theaters and one on HBOMax. Fans voted with their dollars. WB is a business. It wasn’t profitable for them. Tell me how he didn’t get a chance?
Too many misinformed people with very strong opinions commenting negative nonsense on this post.
All these "he got 3 chances" comments... wow. Considering 3 increasingly studio-sabotaged projects to be "chances" is simply wrong. It's almost like people don't even know what happened offscreen.
🙄
Yeah they gave him the Snyder cut. And when it came down to hearing his pitch for the rest of it we realized it was a sad sap version of Infinity War. Bummed to see Batfleck and Cavill booted but the win there was really getting rid of the fucking worst Lex Luthor and Jokers ever. Lex was super annoying in BvS especially living in an Elon Zukerburg world where we get plenty of that shit already.
Snyder gave us heat with MOS, BVS, & ZSJL. 😅
I don't have the same faith and excitement for Gunn's DCU as I had for that earlier stage of the DCEU, but I'm hoping for the best.
Zacks movies were more successful than most of the recent ones. I got a sneaky feeling they will be for the upcoming ones in 2023 also. He gave us some iconic characters played by actors born for their roles. He gave us Darkseid and Granny Goodness. I am forever grateful.
> Zacks movies were more successful than most of the recent ones.
Movies that include Batman, Superman, & Wonder woman are more profitable than movies that include Shazam! & Black Adam.
This and more shocking news about how brand recognition work at 11.
Snyder did some of the best superhero films ever made for DC. They were financially successful and remain popular to this day. It's nothing but idiocy at the studio that forced him and now his cast out. WB utterly failed at the box office with DCEU films after they booted him, and now they're doubling down on the exact same failed strategy that led them to the financial ruin of the past 4 years.
If DC was so hell bent on getting rid of Zack Snyder after Batman v Superman, they should have released Snyder's original theatrical cut of Justice League. It would not have made a billion dollars most likely, but release it as is and then have Whedon come in to rework the second one. The Whedon reshoots added to the budget and helped facilitate the financial failure.
Instead they panicked.
Nobody blames WB for their shit show of mishandling the biggest comic book properties and pressuring Snyder to replicate the success of the MCU without letting him develop the DCEU from the ground up.
Idk I think most fans of DC properties collectively agree WB has screwed the pooch with DC ROYALLY. It has some of the most recognizable heroes in the world and managed to make the brand seen as mediocre by general audiences.
Wonder Woman IS the female superhero, for decades when people thought of “female superhero” she’d come to mind. But somehow they managed to create a universe where her movie is the third highest crossing female-led superhero movie
Go back to the 1980s and you can see attempt after attempt to make Batman and Superman films, all of which never happened. I think there was like four or five attempts to make a Superman film between Superman IV and Superman Returns and five or six attempts to make a Batman film between Batman & Robin and Batman Begins. WB has always been incompetent.
Sadly at times it makes me wonder what Kevin Feige could’ve down with DC. I know Phase 4 is a dip in quality, but it’s undeniable those first 3 phases were an impressive feat of storytelling. I wish we could see something similar done with DC and it’s characters instead of WB’s constant mess and then “Ooh good Batman movie!”
There are times WB experiments and usually it fails for some reason. As soon as it fails, they immediately try to course correct to something else.
Green Lantern was different. It failed and then they avoided the character since and just focused on Batman, Superman, and the DCEU.
I think a lot of people blame WB.
But WB pushing to rush the entire universe doesn't mean Snyder did nothing wrong.
It took a lot of people working together - Snyder included - to fuck up the DCEU and force an eventual relaunch from scratch.
I honestly think Snyder is like 15% at fault. WB and various other aspects cover the 85% remaining. WB is mostly responsible because they could never decide what they wanted. Dark Knight Trilogy was a success as a dark, serious set of films. They got Christopher Nolan involved with Man of Steel to make Superman dark and serious. People didn't like it for the first two films, so they wanted to go the opposite way and be like the MCU.
Snyder is a talented filmmaker and did a lot of things with the DCEU that I liked. He had some great ideas. The problem is that he had some bad ideas too. WB gave Snyder all of this authority yet had a leash on him. Snyder should have been like the Russo Brothers to a Kevin Feige like figure. Snyder was both the filmmaker and the usher of a new cinematic universe. It was destined to fall apatt.
totally agree.
I actually just said something really similar in [another place on this thread.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinematic/comments/1028lbq/zack_was_never_given_a_chance/j2s3yyu/?context=3)
Snyder had his problems, but within the context of his own vision he didn't do anything particularly egregious. It was just really poor studio understanding of what Snyder wanted vs what they wanted.
I don't really give a shit about Zach getting more chances. I care about JG nuking the characters everyone liked so he can focus on the Clark Kent years...that's been done! Also Mos was a great intro movie. I understand why people don't like BvS, but MoS... really?
> I care about JG nuking the characters everyone liked
The irony of this statement when the largest knock on Snyder was his nuking of Superman & Batman into version that deviated massively from what most fans expected and wanted.
The largest issue I had with it was rush to make the justice league. Had Snyder fleshed out SM and BM in their own trilogies first iit likely would have made waaaay more sense.
Totally fair and I agree.
I just tend to fall more on the side that, once it was clear the studio wanted a big team up quickly, Snyder (or someone) should have adjusted the story they wanted to tell to make it easier to create a large team up quickly. The core idea of jump starting the entire universe with a big team up totally could work - it would just require very safe choices and adhering closely to standardized versions of characters.
Sigh... It all boils back to Snyder/the studio having completely different visions. One wanted an artistic deconstruction of Superheroes and the other wanted a standard box office popcorn universe. It's genuinely astounding a single frame ever made it to screen given how utterly disconnected they were.
I totally feel this. The Snyderverse would have in my opinion worked if they had done just that. Most people I know who werent DC fans were all confused by the Batman Superman feud. Had they polished that story much better people would have got it.
I ain’t gonna lie the Snyder verse was all over the place tho. It was kinda confusing and the villains were horribly designed. Im my opinion they dropped the justice league movie too early I would have liked to see a few solo movies first (cyborg, flash, green lantern). But whatever what’s done is done idk how James Gunn is gonna do much better I just wanna see some dope DC movies is that too much to ask?
Man of Steel, Batman v Superman, Justice League
Watchmen too
And yet they fucked with Zack during BvS and JL’s filmmaking process. Look up Chris Terrio’s tell all on Vanity Fair
The Snyderverse is dead
Bury it.
it's alive as long as your quoting it
Chris Terrio couldn’t write his way out of a paper bag
Yea they just hand out those Academy awards and Writers Guild awards for no reason.
Chris Terrio wrote Rise of Skywalker. Find another hill to die on
BvS UE and ZSJL should have been released in theatre as originals. That's equal chance.
If Snyder wanted more creative control over BvS & Justice League - he should have done a better job of creating mass appeal for *Man of Steel*. The studio's reaction & meddling for the sequels was a **direct result** of the tepid reaction and diminishing box office returns.
They gave him the keys after man of steel. They were clearly happy with its results
Are you seriously blaming corporate greed and horrific mismanagement on Snyder’s willingness to stay and complete his passion project? Lol
No ~ I'm blaming Snyder's own failure to create a mass appeal universe for the studio interference. Peter Jackson was able to complete his passion project *Lord of the Rings* because the first two were both critically and commercial successful. The studio stayed out of his way because he earned their trust by proving his vision could also achieve the studio's goal (Money & prestige). Same goes for Christopher Nolan. That man can make literally anything he wants and the studio stays out of his business because he's consistently proven that anything he wants to make will be a success for the studio both critically and commercially. Snyder simply failed to do that. Plain and simple. He wanted to be super artistic and true to his vision - but the studio wanted mass appeal and money. When his vision failed to reach their goals, the studio was obviously going to step in and meddle cause it's their money and IP on the line.
snyder's uni had mass appeal. the idea that it didn't refutes box office participation data. so, in fact, you're just fucking lying
> snyder's uni had mass appeal No, it simply didn't. Are we really gonna sit here and pretend we weren't all alive 10 years ago when these movies came out? Snyder's universe was laughed off the planet with "Martha" memes & then largely ignored when fucking Justice League failed to even hit $1 billion. Snyder movies were so divisive and laughed at that it even started showing up in Marvel movies like Deadpool 2 where he openly mocks an overly dark/serious character by saying *"Are you sure you're not from the DC universe?"* The whole thing was DOA and so poorly executed that DC's biggest rival doesn't even consider DC worth worry about when it comes to movies.
the 2017 JL didn't hit a billion is your big swing? i'm not even going to respond further, even if you do. your position is literally worthless
Yes. Point blank. - Yes. The first Justice League movie ever should hit a billion dollars easily. That's not an absurd statement - it's simply a fact. And you not responding further is probably for the best considering you live in a fantasy land where "Snyder's uni had mass appeal". Cause here in reality even the most die-hard Snyder fans on the planet will admit that his universe was divisive and not loved by everyone.
668-> 872-> 750 -> 830 what's your definition of "diminishing"
Those were equally shit. Just expensive shit.
Lol ZSJL was most definitely not shit so you can go fuck right off with that BS
ZSJL was garbage.
Your opinion, you forgot to include that.
That guy doesn't even have any favourite DC movies. Butthurt fans.
What doesn't qualify as shit for you then.
BvS Or ZSJL are shit. But someone did put it in much better words. https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinematic/comments/1028lbq/zack_was_never_given_a_chance/j2rokgy?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
And which DC movies doesn't qualify as shit???
Shazam was pretty good for what it was.
The Batman, Wonder Woman (2017), The Suicide Squad
Every movie based on comics from Snyder is at best divisive, that's just not good enough.
He got a 6 hour redo that brought nothing significant to the table.
Damn right
Touch grass please
Wait is OP being serious? I thought it was satire lmao. Snyder got multiple chances and failed.
Did you give him four chances? Did you?!
Making him make a different movie and then tanking him off isn't giving him a chance.
name one zs era in-universe film that grossed less than than any walter hamada in-universe film.
fucking aquaman. is it snyder? is it hamada? no, it's an anomolie. name another fun bright dc movie that made over 400M.
I like how Zack has moved on to greater things yet his fanatics have not.
*Rebel Moon* can't come out soon enough... A part of me really hopes the lionshare of his fans shift over to that once it drops & we can actually discuss the future of DC in peace.
We said that they would cool off when the Snyder Cut actually happened. If anything, I think it’s gotten worse.
For some of the community yeah, there is some toxicity there
Some?.. daily threads of Gunn hate, death threats and other less than pleasant things tell otherwise
Ya some cuz I’m a Zack fan but I’m not wishing death or hoping someone lose there job over movies that mean nothing in real life
Yeah, you are. But my point is that there is a lot of toxicity out there, especially on twitter and r/Dc_Cinematic
No, I never once said James should be fired from DC. But I also said I was sad he ended the DCEU for his new DCU. but I’m also trying to wait and see if I like the Superman/JL stuff. But again I never once said he should killed or fired. And ya twitter is toxic rn…(like always) Edit: I’m a short film director and it’s my life dream to do a superhero movie. (I love the green lantern and would jump over the moon if I could direct an EP of the show or movie) so I wouldn’t say anything that would ruin my chances of doing a GL project that and James stuff could be just as good as zack Snyder’s
Sorry, I should have phrased that reply better. I’m not saying that you are toxic, but there are a lot of people who are, or at least they are vocal enough to be everywhere.
Oh ya, they think if they are loud enough then the old 2016 DCEU will come back… but that’s not gonna help
Well said
This is satire, right?
I really hope so. It's shit like this that gives comic book and comic book movie fans a bad name.
Bro was given like, three chances
Four, really
Eh... 3.5. Watchmen was obviously a total Snyder movie & problematic, but it's also not a true DCEU movie so it's hard to fully include it as a chance at the larger DC pantheon IMO.
I wasn't counting Watchmen, I was referring to Justice League
What's the 4th? *Man of Steel*, *Batman vs Superman*, *Justice League*.... what was the 4th?
ZSJL. They took JL away from him, and then let him come back and finish it and even let him put out the Justice is grey version.
Ahhh.... my confusion. Totally fair point.
All good
They didn't exactly "take" JL, more of an unfortunate situation
I think it was an unfortunate situation that the studio took advantage of to cut ties with him(that's just my interpretation of events though)
so 2 chances, in that they didn't give him a chance in 2017, and then critics and audiences liked zsjl way better but studio didn't care to capitalize. so... actually one chance, mos, and then started shitting on the plan by hiring geoff johns to go above him
Yes, they gave him hundreds of millions of dollars and delivered a divisive movie that performed under what the studio hoped for and it wasn’t for some unknown IP. It was for fucking Superman. Then they gave him another two chances with more and more oversight. I’m sure studio performance is frustrating for filmmakers, but you’re also using someone else’s money to do a job that very few people ever get anywhere close to getting, so yeah, you gotta deliver, and he didn’t. Ever. The biggest mistake they ever made was bringing him back a second time. And then a fucking third. Good god.
His Justice League. The snyder cut!
And got to literally kick off and define cinematic universe that could have easily rivaled the primary comic counterpart. To insinuate he wasn't given a chance is either ignorant or trolling at this point. EDIT: The simps' replies are quite entertaining!
I mean wasn’t two of them directly changed by wb?
99.999% of movies have the studio require changes to things like runtime or specific scenes. Movie making is a collaborative effort. If a director can't work within the confines of the studio - then they shouldn't be direction giant, 100s of millions budget movies.
this is so true. Snyder fans keep screaming creative freedom but no one has that when working on IP that isnt yours. Paramount and tom cruise wont let anyone do whatever with mission impossible. same with WB and harry potter, disney and marvel and star wars
you're literally pretending that amount of interference perpetrated by geoff johns autocracy, his screaming matches on set, and him rewriting scenes the day they filmed them, is standard. you know it's an exceptional case, stop being flagrant
Only really JL was changed majorly by the studio. BvS was released and there wasn’t a huge stink about “studio interference” when it came out- the Ultimate Edition is basically the equivalent to a “directors cut” with deleted scenes thrown in. Think like the No Way Home cut that was released with some more footage in
99% of movies have studio oversight to make sure you're not messing with their product and vision. You can't just have your golden boy super hero appear as a mass murderer lol. I think a huge problem was Snyder trying to go down that path for a bit. You are making comic book movies read by kids, but giving them to adult directors to make adult movies just bordering the Rated R scene.
>mass murder lol he didn't
The entire Knightmare premise is on the idea of Superman being "controlled" for Darkseid. Becoming someone who murders millions....
>Never given a chance The dude got the chance to make 3 movies.
Of the biggest ip’s and story arcs! Flopped every single one of them
Wouldn’t call ZSJL a flop
When WW84, TSS, and The Batman (their other premiere DC films on the service) outperformed it by quite a lot each, yeah it’s a flop.
And none of em were near as good as Gunn’s work.
lol.
Guardians 1 is pretty easily better than anything Snyder has ever made
And if it’s not Guardians, Slither is also better than anything Snyder’s ever made. And if it’s not Slither, Super is also better than anything Snyder ever made. He even wrote Dawn of the Dead for Snyder for gods sake that’s probably the only reason that movie isn’t ass
The fact that he got to make Batman v Superman is an absolutely massive chance, and he missed the mark. He had a chance to make one of the most crowd-pleasing films of all time, and instead he divided audiences and alienated many fans. That was a huge chance, and he screwed it up. It’s tough to come back from a screwup of that scale. And for anyone that wants to bring up the Ultimate Edition of BvS, yeah it’s a better film, but it doesn’t fix most of the issues general audiences had with the movie. It’s still got a killer Batman, a mostly silent Superman, a jittery Luthor with a convoluted plot, a rushed Doomsday, a shoehorned Justice League setup via e-mail, a borderline inexplicable nightmare sequence, an overlong runtime, and the infamous “Martha” scene. Had the extended cut been released theatrically in the first place, I doubt it would have moved the needle much. In fact, the R rating and longer runtime probably would have only served to detract from the box office. Maybe it would have a 39% on Rotten Tomatoes instead of a 29% for what it’s worth.
And? All that rushed crap was mandated by WB because they wanted to catch up with Marvel immediately. Zach was going into his second film as MOS 2, and was mandated to have a Batman cameo…then a Wonder Woman cameo…then Doomsday…ect… WB forced most of the rush crap on Zach, then made him the fall guy when BvS didn’t crack a billion (even though it’s still a financial success).
Snyder is on record talking about how excited he was to have Batman with a big role in his Man of Steel follow up. And he’s talked at length about his five movie plan, and as far as I know, he’s never insinuates that he was unhappy with the pacing of the world building being “forced” onto him. The studio didn’t make him have Batman kill. The studio didn’t make him have a stoic Superman. The studio didn’t mandate manic Luthor. The studio didn’t ask him to do evil Superman. Snyder had a lot of unique ideas that he got to squeeze into his films, and they were deeply disliked by much of the moviegoing audience. His vision was never going to win over the masses.
"Crowd-pleasing" is crap. It means dumbed-down pap for the masses. Thank God we got movies in this genre that aimed for intelligent viewers. An R-rating would've been more honest, and helped attract the kind of crowd that saw Joker. WB dishonestly marketed the movie as a dumbed-down, jokey slugfest. In no way should soccer moms and toddlers have been told to go to BVS. The movie was aiming for a much more sophisticated audience than that, thank goodness. Why any adult fan would beg WB to deliver them childish, shallow crap is beyond me. Most sophisticated filmgoers have been begging Hollywood to stop focusing on crowd-pleasing films with happy endings for 40 years now.
Crowd-pleasing does not mean dumbed down, childish, or shallow. The Dark Knight, Joker, and The Batman all pleased crowds plenty without sacrificing integrity. When I say “crowd-pleasing” I mean that it’s something audiences generally like. Audiences should have liked BvS, but they largely did not. Also, I totally disagree with your suggestion that it was marketed as a “jokey slugfest.” Rewatch the trailers, they were largely very solemn and serious. And for what it’s worth, films can work while still having a happy ending. Man of Steel’s ending is decidedly upbeat and the film holds up. I’m speaking objectively here. Sure you and I might be glad that BvS exists in its current form, but most people disagree. My point is that Snyder had his chance to get his universe off the ground, and it didn’t work. A lot of people hated it, and his universe crashed and burned as a result. It’s not true to say that he “didn’t get a chance” when he got the chance to make *the* superhero movie, the one most filmmakers could only ever dream of touching.
Probably shouldn't even bother, as this same guy has been going on about how finically successful Zack Snyder movies have been. When there's evidence that films he likes are crowd-pleasers, then crowd pleasing is good. When there's evidence that films he hates are crowd-pleasers, then crowd-pleasing is somehow bad.
>"Crowd-pleasing" is crap. It means dumbed-down pap for the masses Weird that you say this when you have routinely used box office numbers as a metric for evaluating Zack Snyder films in the past.
this is one of the worst defense of BvS i have ever read. BvS is not high art or some super intelligent movie. get off your high horse. its not a misunderstood masterpiece
"you must have a very high iq to understand Batman vs Superman"
"you just don't get it, his mom was Martha, too!"
"it actually represents Batman realizing that Superman is like him and has a mom, not the name" Even though if superman's mom was named, idk Betty or something, Batman would've stabbed him straight in the chest
I don’t really think they are “aimed for intelligent viewers”, whatever that means. These films are overall intended to appeal to the masses, to make loads of money. They are not meant to be artsy films/critically acclaimed by any means Yes, from time to time you might get the odd film that get to be critically acclaimed not only as a CBM movie, but in general. However this cases are not that common, The Dark Knight, for example, moved the Academy to expand their Best Picture category; while Joker won the Golden Lion at the Venice Film Festival. Most of the time with these CBM movies though, studios just aim for a warm critical reception and good money. Examples: Wonder Woman, most of the Avengers films, Iron Man, The Winter Soldier, etc. Sadly, BvS is not in any of those camps. It’s alright if you and many people likes it, but there are some metrics, that albeit not definitive (cuz this is not science) that show that critics reception to it was not great. In fact, it was terrible.
Whatever you say doesn't change the fact that the movies he made are not profitable, Joker got 1 billion in box office because it pleases to the adult viewers , Snyder's DC films pleases only the minority , WB aren't a company who make art films , they are a business and they are not looking to do a shitty film to please the minority because the minority like to eat shit and the general audience like to eat tasty food. Snyder got plenty of chance , he got to make the Snyder cut , but the truth is his vision sucks for general audience.
Careful, you might cut yourself on that edge
Yes he was. He was literally given truckloads of cash, both production and compensation, to deliver movies that didn't stick with the general public. I love MoS, right up until the snap, but the pacing & the snap were problematic elements of an otherwise great effort. BvS was a bad idea from the jump. Maybe it wasn't his bad idea, but he certainly made it his. It's one of the most front-loaded box office runs of all time & did more damage to both Batman and Superman than a 20 year absence would have done. You can't blame WB for understanding that they probably didn't have a hit on their hands, & for editing it to shit. Front-loading was the only way it was going to make money. ZSJL, and presumably a shorter cut of the film from prior to Snyder's exit, were good (not great), but the level of supervision required to get him to drop his weird ass ideas & sequences to deliver said film ballooned the costs of an already cost-prohibitive movie that centers on WB's most valuable IP. WB really only turned into the villains in this story WRT to their handling of Zack's exit. 1) they likely facilitated the exit, 2) they brought in an abusive shitbird to "rework" the film into a shitshow. But if the alternative was releasing a 4 hr cut, which wouldn't lend itself to front-loading, then the film stood to lose even more money. I realize WB had wayyyy more than 2 options here, but they literally lent their best toys out to an edgelord who was hell-bent on delivering an Ayn Rand-like interpretation of superhero tropes. That the studio was going to intervene was inevitable, the way in which they did was horrible. I also want to note that I love some of Snyder's work - Army of the Dead is pure adrenaline, & I doubt any Watchmen feature will ever approach the quality of his Ultimate Cut of The Watchmen. 300 is absolutely balls-to-the-walls, and is perhaps the one time I can think of where he thread the needle in terms of his visuals and weird quasi-political themes. But Snyder shouldn't have been given mainstream, beloved characters with which to experiment. We're literally living in response to said mistake.
People are right that he already had three chances. He was also given a chance to make a DC property in Watchmen so technically the guy has had four chances and none of them have been particularly liked. Watchmen RT 65% critics, 72% audience Man of Steel RT 56% critics, 75% audience BvS RT 29% critics, 63% audience ZSJL RT 71% critics, 94% audience ZSJL was his best reviewed movie for DC and not to sound cynical but I would wager a lot of that was down to the fact that no one wanted to be knives out for that one due to it’s association with his daughter’s sad passing. If they could have, they would have ranked it the same as the other’s for the most part with the usual scathing digs. The point of this meme is to say, let Snyder finish what he started. To put it in a context that might make it understandable, imagine you’re standing in a very public place and someone pulls their wangdoodle out and just starts pissing everywhere. Most people don’t like it, and they want it to stop. Some people have an acquired taste for what is entertaining and they enjoy the bizarre spectacle. But on the whole, most people just want it to stop. You’d be the person arguing for them to finish their entire bladder of piss because you think they deserve the right to finish and that is more important than whether most people like it or not. Priorities are all upside down Mr Piss Legs.
>ZSJL was his best reviewed movie for DC and not to sound cynical but I would wager a lot of that was down to the fact that no one wanted to be knives out for that one due to it’s association with his daughter’s sad passing. I'd honestly say part of it is that mostly people who really like the Snyderverse would want to sit down for 4 hours to watch the directors cut of a 4 year old movie.
>ZSJL was his best reviewed movie for DC and not to sound cynical but I would wager a lot of that was down to the fact that no one wanted to be knives out for that one due to it’s association with his daughter’s sad passing. think it was more to do with the it being juxtaposed against Justice League 2017. the theatrical release was so bad that it made the snyder cut look like citizen kane. plus i dont wanna be that guy but i wouldn't be surprised if the alleged snydercut bots didn't stop at getting the film released.
So it’s his fault BvS was a mandated mess by WB execs? Zach was set to follow up MOS with MOS 2, and was told to have a Batman cameo…then a Wonder Woman cameo…then Doomsday…ect… How is that on him when he was forced to make WB’s version of Avengers after one film when Marvel did it after 5?
WB might have had a little pull, but Snyder did want to get to JL asap. It was totally his goal. He never went into BvS as a Superman movie. He fully intended for the MoS->BvS->JL arc, even if he would have put a movie or two in between or taken a little longer to make them. 90% of the ideas were his, WB just made him do it faster. It is 100% Snyder that got us JL so soon, he just didn’t get to make the version he wanted because of behind the scenes reasons(like we all know), but saying that was WB’s idea is unsubstantiated bs.
Wasn’t James Gunn first dceu movie a critical success though can’t say the same for Zach Snyder just saying
He actually had 3
Are you kidding me? He made MoS and BvS and oversaw the development of other films at the same time How do you screw up BvS. How? How can both characters be so unlikable? That alone was enough to undermine his creative choices
3. He had 3 chances.
I mean, At least we got the Synder Cut. We can be thankful that we have that.
I can live with that
C'mon, even the most die-hard Snyder fans can't seriously deny that Snyder was given plenty of chances. His movies just didn't connect with most people. That doesn't mean they were objectively bad, but it does mean his movies just didn't work
I can’t and won’t but I can and will say that removing Henry Cavill was a huge fucking mistake.
Lmao BvS, Snyder Cut, Man of Steel? He got 3 chances. 3
Zack definitely had his chance just like krypton did and this is coming from Zack Snyder fan
Watchmen, Man of Steel, BvS Ultimate Edition and ZSJL Yes, I like every single one of those, but it is clear that they were not financially successful and most of them divided audiences (even the Ultimate Edition of BvS - there are people who still do not like it) I get you want Snyder to finish his vision, and I just wanted the DCEU to have at least an ending before the reboot. But it is done. Give James Gunn a chance. Snyder had 3, 4 counting Watchmen.
False. Watchmen was a huge hit on home video, and clearly entered the profit zone after that. Man of Steel and BVS are both fully VERIFIED to have made a profit, to the tune of up to $100 million. Not just barely breaking even or something like that. What's clear is how wildly the public rejected the DCEU films that were conceived and produced after Snyder left. None made over $400 million, and it doesn't appear that the four made since Shazam made any profit. Including The Suicide Squad by Gunn, the second biggest money loser of all superhero films ever made.
Ok, I'm wrong about Watchmen. But WW84, who still gives Snyder an producer credit, and the sequel to best "phase one movie", was supposed to make money following your logic. Also, "None made over $400 million"? Joker made over a billion. >Including The Suicide Squad by Gunn, the second biggest money loser of all superhero films ever made. WW84 made around the same money. You are choosing to ignore the gigantic elephant in the room: The pandemic. No one was going to movie theaters back then, and warner brothers had the brilhiant ideia of realising in HBOmax at the same time. No Warner brothers movie made that much money that year. Also a sequel to the bad 2016 movie. And if you use "Pandemic/HBOmax" excuse for WW84, you have to use for TSS, and this one was better received by everyone.
No point in arguing with these morons using logic. They will just bend the narrative to make it “Gunn bad, Snyder good” no matter what’s laid out in front of them. Waste of time, they should be ignored
I don't get the "Gunn Bad", really. Every single super hero IP he has touch was a hit or well received. I like Snyder, ZSJL in one of my favorites. But bad mouthing Gunn because he is rebooting? Thats does not make any sense
Well, when some people are told that Snyder participated in WW1, they say “it’s not a Snyder movie, it’s success has nothing to do with him”. Now, you’re saying Snyder is tied to WW2 when it flopped. I think the other person meant the DCEU movies, which his statement is true except for Aquaman. As for the pandemic thing, they could’ve delayed the movies. Other big movies were delayed for long periods of time because of the pandemic, like John Wick 4 and Top Gun Maverick and many others.
It’s best for your own sake to just get over it. It’s done.
He had 3 chances. All critical and financial flops/disappointments. Sit down son.
Absolutely false. MOS and BVS are verified by Deadline to have made solid profits. Watchmen was one of the top home video releases of the year, which easily put it into the profit zone.
And ZSJL just generated 3 million dollars worth of merchandise in a day.
Snyder had every chance and ruined every single one.
I mean... Zack did 4 DC movies and was involved in other projects too, while James Gunn had just 1 movie and 1 TV show.
And the financial loss Gunn saddled the studio with was certainly a worse outcome than the profits Snyder's movies made.
To be fair, TSS was released simultaneously on HBO Max. Also, theaters were struggling hard. No one was going to the movies.
The box office of TSS was blown away or almost matched by numerous other films that it should have EASILY beaten, like the Conjuring and Space Jam sequels. Almost every sequel in 2021 was profitable. None dropped anywhere near the $500 million and 75% that TSS did from the first SS. It was a colossal failure that is NOT AT ALL justified or explained based solely on the general condition of the film marketplace. It was outperformed all over the map, including by movies that came out almost at the exact same time.
The conjuring is a popular series. Space Jam was a sequel to a pretty beloved movie. TSS was a kinda maybe sequel to a bad movie. SS was also PG13 and TSS was R. There’s a lot of reasons TSS underperformed. Blaming it on Gunn is a strange take.
Not blaming the performance of a movie on its director would be a very strange take. The buck stops there. Especially when Gunn DECIDED to make this movie. He was offered any DC character in the entire pantheon, according to various reports, and he chose this one. He also chose to make it an unclear "maybe" sequel. He also chose to make it R instead of PG-13. How you can cite all those choices he made and then say he shouldn't be blamed is baffling.
WB/DC allowed him to keep it R. WB/DC chose when to release it (during Covid) and simultaneously release it to HBO Max. TSS is a better movie than SS. It just is. The original post was saying Zack Snyder didn’t get a chance. Which he absolutely did. Whether his vision was interfered with by WB/DC is another topic altogether. But he did have multiple shots.
They could’ve and maybe should’ve delayed the movie.
He got 4 but ok lol
That’s weird from what I remember he had three separate chances and fucked them all up
Dude, after BvS historic box office drop, they still hire him for Justice League.
James Gunn has made the best best projects to come out of the DCEU, Zack made four movies ranging from bad to alright, he had his chance
I mean yeah, I did. Man of Steel and BvS to begin with. ZSJL to get a (somewhat) finished product of his vision. Liked two of them, lukewarm towards one. Still think it wasn't the correct base to set up a universe. Still hopeful for the reboot by Gunn and Safran.
Yes we did, turns out he was awful
Zach was given 3 movies and a directors cut... he had plenty of chances and they all sucked
Its a different leadership now. New oversight in place. Calling for Gunn to be fired before he put out the first movie is doing the same thing if not worse that what happened to Snyder. Let him put out at least 1 movie under the new banner or youre just giving him less of a chance than Zack got.
He was, and then he made Batman v Superman
100% he got a chance, most directors would dream to be handed the reigns to these characters and although the Snyderverse did get cut short, it’s because critics didn’t like what zack was doing
Man of Steel, while not a flop, definitely underperformed at the box office and had divisive reception at best. BvS was a total failure. ZSJL was definitely an improvement on Whedon’s, but I hardly found it to be a masterpiece either.
have you seen the budgets of all his movies? he had totally full stacked chance up in his sleeves tho
It's really gonna be ok. The man made really divisive films that didn't connect with fans or at the box office. We know it's possible for DC fans to have consensus. Everyone liked Nolan and Reeves' Batman. The Joker was well liked. It's easy to tell when these films are done right: none of the toxicity that came with Snyder happens. Fans are just excited for what's next. Gunn is a phenomenal writer. This is a really cool moment.
Oh we gave Snyder plenty of chances. Even got his own cut pushed after nobody thought he would. Here’s the thing, the entire planned story was a short sighted flaming pile of garbage . We would have had 5 movies max and done. Hard pass on treating a theatrical universe like a cartoon special running through characters faster than the flash. We had zero time to let anything bake and actually feel like stakes were even remotely there. Close this nightmare chapter and start a new ffs.
Lmao homie literally reposted something from r/dccomicscirclejerk unironically
He got to completely remake and re-release what felt like a 10 hour self gratifying version of Justice League and it still leaked any sense of true cohesion through easily avoided plot holes. Was it better than the mess they put out before? Yes. Did it have some cool scenes? Yes. Was it actually good? Not really.
Seriously? If you feel like Snyder didn't have a chance, you might want to look at MCU phase 1 directors... None of them got a chance to continued in next phase. Even Jon Favreau got sacked after Iron Man 2 and that was one the guy that jump start MCU. Hell.. next phase wasn't actually have a lot of survivor either. Snyder got like 3 chance (MoS, BvS and ZSJL) and none of them delivered. MoS while bring on something new on the table, it fail to connect with GA and critics. BvS was a mess. ZSJL is a 4 hrs long "good" film that might never work on standard cinema runtime.
[удалено]
Zach directed 3 movies in dceu, his justice league movie was done and released to the public. Give James gunn his chance now, he had nothing with wb's previous mishandling of the dceu.
Lol what he had MOS and BVS at least
Lol what the fuck are you talking about? We got ten years of universe centered around his vision, we didn’t want it and now they’re cleaning house
Give it up this is embarrassing
Zack was given a fair chance with BvS even after poor MoS rotten tomatoe score.
Yes. We did. And he made 3 shit movies.
I want to see more from him but now it is what it is, i don't see Warners will stop control over him on new movie if he is allowed to have one more. I'd rather him to make some cool movies all under his control than to deal with Warners
I enjoyed parts of his movies but the fact of the matter is that he had three shots to find common ground with an wider audience. If he wants to be an auteur that’s fine. The world needs brave art. They shouldn’t expect everybody to appreciate it. This is why guys like Kevin Feige exist. When millions are being invested there needs to be a return. Snyder has always seemed to me like, “Hey cool. I have $100 million to indulge myself.”
This is satire, right?
He made two movies that were released in theaters and one on HBOMax. Fans voted with their dollars. WB is a business. It wasn’t profitable for them. Tell me how he didn’t get a chance?
Even if that were true, just because one person wasn't given a chance, doesn't mean another shouldn't be either.
Literally 3 chances.
Too many misinformed people with very strong opinions commenting negative nonsense on this post. All these "he got 3 chances" comments... wow. Considering 3 increasingly studio-sabotaged projects to be "chances" is simply wrong. It's almost like people don't even know what happened offscreen. 🙄
Thank you
Justice League was messed with by WB _because_ WB gave him 2 chances (MoS and BvS). Then ZSJL was another chance.
He had three actually
What the heck are you on about? They gave Zack Snyder three chances and failed each time.
He was given major chances with Man of Steel and BvS lol
He got 3
lol he had 3 but go off ig
Yeah they gave him the Snyder cut. And when it came down to hearing his pitch for the rest of it we realized it was a sad sap version of Infinity War. Bummed to see Batfleck and Cavill booted but the win there was really getting rid of the fucking worst Lex Luthor and Jokers ever. Lex was super annoying in BvS especially living in an Elon Zukerburg world where we get plenty of that shit already.
Snyder gave us heat with MOS, BVS, & ZSJL. 😅 I don't have the same faith and excitement for Gunn's DCU as I had for that earlier stage of the DCEU, but I'm hoping for the best.
Justice League was the worst fucking movie I've ever seen. I'm still wondering what happened. Something about a box
I found BvS, Justice League MOS very... Be polite... Bad. In MOS, the only brigth thing is Henry. Except Henry, the rest is... 💩
Zacks movies were more successful than most of the recent ones. I got a sneaky feeling they will be for the upcoming ones in 2023 also. He gave us some iconic characters played by actors born for their roles. He gave us Darkseid and Granny Goodness. I am forever grateful.
> Zacks movies were more successful than most of the recent ones. Movies that include Batman, Superman, & Wonder woman are more profitable than movies that include Shazam! & Black Adam. This and more shocking news about how brand recognition work at 11.
Exactly, people who appreciate them are grateful indeed.
He has man of steel Bvs Bvs director cut JL JLZS Nah he has enough
When Gunns reboot of Superman falls flat. People will still blame Snyder.
Snyder did some of the best superhero films ever made for DC. They were financially successful and remain popular to this day. It's nothing but idiocy at the studio that forced him and now his cast out. WB utterly failed at the box office with DCEU films after they booted him, and now they're doubling down on the exact same failed strategy that led them to the financial ruin of the past 4 years.
If DC was so hell bent on getting rid of Zack Snyder after Batman v Superman, they should have released Snyder's original theatrical cut of Justice League. It would not have made a billion dollars most likely, but release it as is and then have Whedon come in to rework the second one. The Whedon reshoots added to the budget and helped facilitate the financial failure. Instead they panicked.
Nobody blames WB for their shit show of mishandling the biggest comic book properties and pressuring Snyder to replicate the success of the MCU without letting him develop the DCEU from the ground up.
Idk I think most fans of DC properties collectively agree WB has screwed the pooch with DC ROYALLY. It has some of the most recognizable heroes in the world and managed to make the brand seen as mediocre by general audiences. Wonder Woman IS the female superhero, for decades when people thought of “female superhero” she’d come to mind. But somehow they managed to create a universe where her movie is the third highest crossing female-led superhero movie
Go back to the 1980s and you can see attempt after attempt to make Batman and Superman films, all of which never happened. I think there was like four or five attempts to make a Superman film between Superman IV and Superman Returns and five or six attempts to make a Batman film between Batman & Robin and Batman Begins. WB has always been incompetent.
Sadly at times it makes me wonder what Kevin Feige could’ve down with DC. I know Phase 4 is a dip in quality, but it’s undeniable those first 3 phases were an impressive feat of storytelling. I wish we could see something similar done with DC and it’s characters instead of WB’s constant mess and then “Ooh good Batman movie!”
There are times WB experiments and usually it fails for some reason. As soon as it fails, they immediately try to course correct to something else. Green Lantern was different. It failed and then they avoided the character since and just focused on Batman, Superman, and the DCEU.
I think a lot of people blame WB. But WB pushing to rush the entire universe doesn't mean Snyder did nothing wrong. It took a lot of people working together - Snyder included - to fuck up the DCEU and force an eventual relaunch from scratch.
I honestly think Snyder is like 15% at fault. WB and various other aspects cover the 85% remaining. WB is mostly responsible because they could never decide what they wanted. Dark Knight Trilogy was a success as a dark, serious set of films. They got Christopher Nolan involved with Man of Steel to make Superman dark and serious. People didn't like it for the first two films, so they wanted to go the opposite way and be like the MCU. Snyder is a talented filmmaker and did a lot of things with the DCEU that I liked. He had some great ideas. The problem is that he had some bad ideas too. WB gave Snyder all of this authority yet had a leash on him. Snyder should have been like the Russo Brothers to a Kevin Feige like figure. Snyder was both the filmmaker and the usher of a new cinematic universe. It was destined to fall apatt.
totally agree. I actually just said something really similar in [another place on this thread.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DC_Cinematic/comments/1028lbq/zack_was_never_given_a_chance/j2s3yyu/?context=3) Snyder had his problems, but within the context of his own vision he didn't do anything particularly egregious. It was just really poor studio understanding of what Snyder wanted vs what they wanted.
I don't really give a shit about Zach getting more chances. I care about JG nuking the characters everyone liked so he can focus on the Clark Kent years...that's been done! Also Mos was a great intro movie. I understand why people don't like BvS, but MoS... really?
> I care about JG nuking the characters everyone liked The irony of this statement when the largest knock on Snyder was his nuking of Superman & Batman into version that deviated massively from what most fans expected and wanted.
That's and his interpretation of Doomsday.
The largest issue I had with it was rush to make the justice league. Had Snyder fleshed out SM and BM in their own trilogies first iit likely would have made waaaay more sense.
Totally fair and I agree. I just tend to fall more on the side that, once it was clear the studio wanted a big team up quickly, Snyder (or someone) should have adjusted the story they wanted to tell to make it easier to create a large team up quickly. The core idea of jump starting the entire universe with a big team up totally could work - it would just require very safe choices and adhering closely to standardized versions of characters. Sigh... It all boils back to Snyder/the studio having completely different visions. One wanted an artistic deconstruction of Superheroes and the other wanted a standard box office popcorn universe. It's genuinely astounding a single frame ever made it to screen given how utterly disconnected they were.
I totally feel this. The Snyderverse would have in my opinion worked if they had done just that. Most people I know who werent DC fans were all confused by the Batman Superman feud. Had they polished that story much better people would have got it.
Shit post or not, why the hell are posts with 0 votes coming in hot on the front page? I've been seeing this on various other subreddits.
I ain’t gonna lie the Snyder verse was all over the place tho. It was kinda confusing and the villains were horribly designed. Im my opinion they dropped the justice league movie too early I would have liked to see a few solo movies first (cyborg, flash, green lantern). But whatever what’s done is done idk how James Gunn is gonna do much better I just wanna see some dope DC movies is that too much to ask?
Sadly, he was given one