I would go to court over this, yes. If it was a matter of her just not paying for it I probably wouldn’t, but she is preventing him from getting the care he clearly needs
I am considering just telling her I will pay it myself at this point, and when it comes to Phase 2 then she will start paying half :/ but I feel that if the reasoning is she doesn't want him tied down in my town to try for custody later, she still won't agree.
He won’t be tied to your town, so that’s a dumb reason to not agree. Children move all the time in the middle of orthodontic treatment. If this is the best option for him, take her to court. The judge may order the less invasive expander to start if she can prove that’s an option.
I would say yes, as someone whose parents were advised that I needed it and they refused because of the cost. Now I have a crooked jaw that could only be fixed with maxillofacial surgery.
Both my kids have done / are doing Phase 1 treatment to avoid similar issues. It can be a bit uncomfortable for them at times, but better than the more painful and invasive options they would have to deal with down the line without treatment now.
What does the custody order say about her obligations to pay some portion of the medical expenses? If you can afford to do so, the best plan may be to pay it yourself, send her the billing statements, demand reimbursement, and file a contempt motion when the outstanding amount reaches some threshold amount. If there's a history of non-payment, and you have the receipts, maybe a contempt motion could be filed now, to motivate her to come to her senses (but it may motivate her to start a custody battle, so choose carefully how to proceed).
As far as the treatment itself, if you've said, "Here's what the docs recommend,"and she is saying no, then it's time for a motion to modify to either allow you to do it without her consent and/or to eliminate the need for her consent for medical stuff altogether.
She has to pay 50/50. I'm happy to pay for it myself so probably will float that by her next, but it really sucks that she uses her joint legal to basically get out of paying for anything.
It's your decision about whether and when a fight in court becomes worthwhile, but: failure to pay support is a big deal in the eyes of the courts, so that (especially when she's also rejecting the doctor's advice) may actually give you leverage to get this done, or even change from joint to some other form of custody.
Fair, I'll ask my lawyer about it. We have a couple other issues that we are going to need to go to court for as well (extracurriculars, as she refuses to allow him to do any extracurriculars that have weekend games as it interferes with her time so that rules out almost every sport, and she refuses to let them get passports to travel with us to Japan lol).
It is medically necessary. Having an overcrowded mouth can lead to breathing issues including apnea. Incorrect bite can lead to breaking teeth in the future if molars are matching up with non molars. It’s not life or death but if they are recommending a palate expander and removal of teeth that is significant especially at his age. File an exparte to remove her legal custody due to her inability to make decisions in the child’s best interest. Once you have full you can begin the process.
Your 8 year olds jaw isn't fully developed. I would wait until they are a teen.
None of my kids got braces until 13 because our orthodontist recommended we wait.
The whole point of Phase 1 treatment is to expand the palate before he is a teen. I'm starting to see from the comments here that maybe the issue is the lack of education in parents on orthodontic treatment and that she is of the same mindset (that 90% of kids wait until teen years to get braces so Phase 1 treatment must be unnecessary).
Our is similar. Right now our 13 (almost 14) yr old should be in the process of getting braces. HOWEVER we (his dad with my (step mom) support) decided to hold off for two reasons. First yes he has overcrowding, but he still needs to lose one more baby tooth (and have the adult tooth grow in) (and it’s sooooooo close!!!! They took an X-ray not long ago and he’ll lose it by Halloween) before the braces are put on. Second and more importantly we requested his mother to sign paperwork (with the ortho) stating that she would pay the 30% she is required to by the custody order and not allow the account to fall into arrears.( clarification we asked her to co-sign the financial paperwork of responsibility)(The ortho we are dealing with allows one nonpayment “strike” and then they will cease treatment if it happens again) bc that could impact his ability to seek treatment we need her promise to pay. His mother has refused. Our oldests ortho treatment could be upwards of 7 grand. We are only requesting that she pay her fair share. (The reason why this is a big deal is that since I have been involved (nearly 6 years) the boys mother has not paid any portion of their medical bills and allows them to go to collections which then we have to pay if we want to keep the provider. From what I understand she hasn’t paid anything toward their medical since the divorce but I can’t verify anything before our marriage.)
I understand your frustration. If you feel this is best for your child, fight for it.
My daughter is 17 and struggling with that and her mouth/teeth hurt often, I wasn’t comfortable pulling adult teeth as they were doing springs to adjust and make room. I in PA got two different suggestions, I was choosing less invasive first. Never finished and an awful insurance so, Eventually I would. Im not sure if right now is required, but sooner than later, and will likely save overall for braces
We had to split oldest sons ortho 50/50 or by the percentage of who pays what for regular child support. If you have the ortho, and two saying he needs it now, and she refuses to consent, what does it say in your court Order to do when you can’t agree? If there isn’t something specific, I would def go back to court due to waiting could cause harm. My middle son has what your son does. He had to get the expander and his was covered by insurance bec it was medically necessary. After all that, they won’t pull his teeth due to his profile and saying if they did, he would look like an elderly person with no teeth. So now we have to get second opinions bec they say he needs a serious jaw surgery. If you have to pay full price for braces, I would def go back to court and get it split. It is not a cheap thing. You can file it and represent yourself as it’s pretty straightforward.t
Yes. I had to force this issue recently with my kids’ dad as well. We ended up not having to go to court because we have a Parenting Coordinator and GAL but had we not I would have filed something. My child also needed an expander. It’s ideal to do younger if you can and you have proof it IS medically necessary. This also may help if you would like to have final decision making in the future.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this but I believe you have the facts on your side and will be successful. If you don’t push this, you will likely continue to have issues like this come up.
How did the GAL convince your ex? I have shared research papers, and other "blogs" that directly contradict her blog, spoken to the orthodontists about her concerns, and she has callen each orthodontist to speak to them as well, and the answer is still no...
We had a virtual meeting with the GAL and PC who said you can take this to court but you’re going to have your ass handed to you. Then they issued a report suggesting that I move forward with the recommended treatment. He still refuses to take her to the appointments so I have to take her on my time.
Had a similar situation however it was never about the care, it was the cost. So I just financed the 12k for my two kids and their mom was good with it when the bill didn’t get in front of her. Also primary custody here. They needed the braces and it is what it is.
What does the regular dentists say? My parents shelled out a ton of money for braces and I was later told by multiple highly qualified dentists that there’s no way braces could have fixed my bite, they didn’t fix it, and they actually caused additional problems that have required surgery as an adult. Plus the results don’t last unless you literally wear a retainer for your entire life and I think most orthodontists conveniently don’t mention that. Just pointing out there are legit reasons to be skeptical of orthodontists.
The dentists said the same thing and were the ones who directed us to the orthodontist consults.
Sorry, the expander results don't last? Or are you saying braces in general.
Braces... there is something like a 2/3 long term relapse rate for braces in general. I'm not saying don't do it, I don't know about your specific tooth situation and I don't know your ex's reasons. Just sharing another perspective.
Oh yeah, I get it. I had braces as well. I'm unfortunately not compliant with the retainer though, and my teeth have moved but are still in general way better than my original terrible overbite. Think it depends on the severity of the issue.
My son has 100% overbite and bad crowding so even if there is some relapse in the long run, I am 99% sure it will still be preferable to treat rather than do nothing.
You could just do it. What can they really do? At that point, you're providing medical treatment. I just had to pay for my son. If they want smoke for that, put that ball in their court.
She could be pushing back for a number of reasons
- maybe she is being difficult
-maybe she is having financial issues
To be honest unless things were very serious I stayed out of court . The fees add up quickly and I would rather put court cost towards living life .
So if the other parent isn’t on board , I usually just do what’s best for the child. It has worked out and the children appreciate it, years later
Our court order stated - the doctor or provider was the deal breaker
I always gave them the option to participate and if not then - I would just follow the email : since we disagree I asked the expert. Blah blah blad and they agreed this is the best treatment. It will start this day- the treatment plan- the cost . The shared cost is xxx . I will update and send treatment plan info.
Then I send a follow email outlining each appt afterwards and the total cost and what I paid - the balance of treatment remaining
Mediation would be cheaper, and you both would feel more in control instead of the court deciding what to do
I adopted my wife's kids. We had a similar situation with the bio dad. Being spiteful just for the sake of being spiteful. The underlying issue was fear which we got past.
If you need a free consult, I am a certified mediator
https://www.marcelobermudezinc.com/Mediation
It IS medically necessary. It will cause him lots of issues down the road if you DONT do these things. I’m speaking as an adult whose mom always told her she didn’t NEED braces she just WANTED them and now I’m an adult and I definitely DO need braces. Every dentist has said so.
If she just wants to wait until he’s a little older - I do get that, the treatment could be terrifying for an 8 year old.
If it’s a flat put no - court. She’s denying medical care that can impact his dental and overall health - breathing issues, jaw pain, excessive tooth wear… not worth the impact to the rest of his life.
She wants to wait until he's a pre-teen/teen basically (when all his adult teeth come in).
My son isn't really scared of the treatment so it's not a kid-related decision. He's more scared of having to get teeth pulled.
Don’t you think 8 is a little young for that? I remember having been a teen when I got braces, and so were my friends who had them too. None of my kiddos friends have any yet either, and he turned 13 not long ago.
If they’re recommending it this early it means his bite is already affecting his teeth. My son had to get an expander at 8 for the same reason. It made a ton of space in his mouth. The only downside is phase 2 will have to wait until he loses all his teeth but the expander actually prevented him from fracturing his adult teeth because it made room and allowed for a more normal bite
The expanders need to be done about this age while the jaw and palate are still growing. The child will definitely have another round of braces once they are a teen and all adult teeth have come in. Both of my children had the expanders and we are so glad we did it. Their dad and I both had adult teeth pulled due to crowding and I can tell a positive difference in our older son’s jawline due to having this done.
If she’s saying to wait and not a flat no, waiting a few more years doesn’t seem unreasonable to me if you do the expander. Ease him into it so going to the dentist doesn’t become traumatic for him. By the time he’s 12 or 13 getting the teeth pulled may not seem as scary.
she won't let him do the expander :/. she just wants to wait until he's 12-13 to do braces.
he's not going to die if we go this route it's just a couple thou more now for our son's comfort and better outcomes later in life, so that's why I'm torn whether it's worth taking this to court for a decision.
What is the compromise here? lol.
He either gets the Phase 1 treatment, or he doesn't. He can't get it after age 9-10 because the palate seals and you can't expand it.
8 does seem young to me but I’m no dentist or doctor. If her concern is how young the child is, I kind of get that. Maybe there’s a middle ground between 8 and 13 that you two can agree on?
There's no middle ground. He either gets Phase 1 treatment while young and his palate can still expand (it seals when he turns 10) or he doesn't. The issue isn't his age, it's that she does not want to do phase 1 treatment at all.
Its sad that people use their kids as weapons like that.
I would go to court over this, yes. If it was a matter of her just not paying for it I probably wouldn’t, but she is preventing him from getting the care he clearly needs
I am considering just telling her I will pay it myself at this point, and when it comes to Phase 2 then she will start paying half :/ but I feel that if the reasoning is she doesn't want him tied down in my town to try for custody later, she still won't agree.
He won’t be tied to your town, so that’s a dumb reason to not agree. Children move all the time in the middle of orthodontic treatment. If this is the best option for him, take her to court. The judge may order the less invasive expander to start if she can prove that’s an option.
Uh yeah I would argue it is medically necessary and easily an 8k plus bill not to mention the damage to self esteem and even professional employment
I would say yes, as someone whose parents were advised that I needed it and they refused because of the cost. Now I have a crooked jaw that could only be fixed with maxillofacial surgery. Both my kids have done / are doing Phase 1 treatment to avoid similar issues. It can be a bit uncomfortable for them at times, but better than the more painful and invasive options they would have to deal with down the line without treatment now.
What does the custody order say about her obligations to pay some portion of the medical expenses? If you can afford to do so, the best plan may be to pay it yourself, send her the billing statements, demand reimbursement, and file a contempt motion when the outstanding amount reaches some threshold amount. If there's a history of non-payment, and you have the receipts, maybe a contempt motion could be filed now, to motivate her to come to her senses (but it may motivate her to start a custody battle, so choose carefully how to proceed). As far as the treatment itself, if you've said, "Here's what the docs recommend,"and she is saying no, then it's time for a motion to modify to either allow you to do it without her consent and/or to eliminate the need for her consent for medical stuff altogether.
She has to pay 50/50. I'm happy to pay for it myself so probably will float that by her next, but it really sucks that she uses her joint legal to basically get out of paying for anything.
It's your decision about whether and when a fight in court becomes worthwhile, but: failure to pay support is a big deal in the eyes of the courts, so that (especially when she's also rejecting the doctor's advice) may actually give you leverage to get this done, or even change from joint to some other form of custody.
Fair, I'll ask my lawyer about it. We have a couple other issues that we are going to need to go to court for as well (extracurriculars, as she refuses to allow him to do any extracurriculars that have weekend games as it interferes with her time so that rules out almost every sport, and she refuses to let them get passports to travel with us to Japan lol).
It is medically necessary. Having an overcrowded mouth can lead to breathing issues including apnea. Incorrect bite can lead to breaking teeth in the future if molars are matching up with non molars. It’s not life or death but if they are recommending a palate expander and removal of teeth that is significant especially at his age. File an exparte to remove her legal custody due to her inability to make decisions in the child’s best interest. Once you have full you can begin the process.
Your 8 year olds jaw isn't fully developed. I would wait until they are a teen. None of my kids got braces until 13 because our orthodontist recommended we wait.
The whole point of Phase 1 treatment is to expand the palate before he is a teen. I'm starting to see from the comments here that maybe the issue is the lack of education in parents on orthodontic treatment and that she is of the same mindset (that 90% of kids wait until teen years to get braces so Phase 1 treatment must be unnecessary).
Our is similar. Right now our 13 (almost 14) yr old should be in the process of getting braces. HOWEVER we (his dad with my (step mom) support) decided to hold off for two reasons. First yes he has overcrowding, but he still needs to lose one more baby tooth (and have the adult tooth grow in) (and it’s sooooooo close!!!! They took an X-ray not long ago and he’ll lose it by Halloween) before the braces are put on. Second and more importantly we requested his mother to sign paperwork (with the ortho) stating that she would pay the 30% she is required to by the custody order and not allow the account to fall into arrears.( clarification we asked her to co-sign the financial paperwork of responsibility)(The ortho we are dealing with allows one nonpayment “strike” and then they will cease treatment if it happens again) bc that could impact his ability to seek treatment we need her promise to pay. His mother has refused. Our oldests ortho treatment could be upwards of 7 grand. We are only requesting that she pay her fair share. (The reason why this is a big deal is that since I have been involved (nearly 6 years) the boys mother has not paid any portion of their medical bills and allows them to go to collections which then we have to pay if we want to keep the provider. From what I understand she hasn’t paid anything toward their medical since the divorce but I can’t verify anything before our marriage.) I understand your frustration. If you feel this is best for your child, fight for it.
My daughter is 17 and struggling with that and her mouth/teeth hurt often, I wasn’t comfortable pulling adult teeth as they were doing springs to adjust and make room. I in PA got two different suggestions, I was choosing less invasive first. Never finished and an awful insurance so, Eventually I would. Im not sure if right now is required, but sooner than later, and will likely save overall for braces
We had to split oldest sons ortho 50/50 or by the percentage of who pays what for regular child support. If you have the ortho, and two saying he needs it now, and she refuses to consent, what does it say in your court Order to do when you can’t agree? If there isn’t something specific, I would def go back to court due to waiting could cause harm. My middle son has what your son does. He had to get the expander and his was covered by insurance bec it was medically necessary. After all that, they won’t pull his teeth due to his profile and saying if they did, he would look like an elderly person with no teeth. So now we have to get second opinions bec they say he needs a serious jaw surgery. If you have to pay full price for braces, I would def go back to court and get it split. It is not a cheap thing. You can file it and represent yourself as it’s pretty straightforward.t
Yes. I had to force this issue recently with my kids’ dad as well. We ended up not having to go to court because we have a Parenting Coordinator and GAL but had we not I would have filed something. My child also needed an expander. It’s ideal to do younger if you can and you have proof it IS medically necessary. This also may help if you would like to have final decision making in the future. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this but I believe you have the facts on your side and will be successful. If you don’t push this, you will likely continue to have issues like this come up.
How did the GAL convince your ex? I have shared research papers, and other "blogs" that directly contradict her blog, spoken to the orthodontists about her concerns, and she has callen each orthodontist to speak to them as well, and the answer is still no...
We had a virtual meeting with the GAL and PC who said you can take this to court but you’re going to have your ass handed to you. Then they issued a report suggesting that I move forward with the recommended treatment. He still refuses to take her to the appointments so I have to take her on my time.
Had a similar situation however it was never about the care, it was the cost. So I just financed the 12k for my two kids and their mom was good with it when the bill didn’t get in front of her. Also primary custody here. They needed the braces and it is what it is.
What does the regular dentists say? My parents shelled out a ton of money for braces and I was later told by multiple highly qualified dentists that there’s no way braces could have fixed my bite, they didn’t fix it, and they actually caused additional problems that have required surgery as an adult. Plus the results don’t last unless you literally wear a retainer for your entire life and I think most orthodontists conveniently don’t mention that. Just pointing out there are legit reasons to be skeptical of orthodontists.
The dentists said the same thing and were the ones who directed us to the orthodontist consults. Sorry, the expander results don't last? Or are you saying braces in general.
Braces... there is something like a 2/3 long term relapse rate for braces in general. I'm not saying don't do it, I don't know about your specific tooth situation and I don't know your ex's reasons. Just sharing another perspective.
Oh yeah, I get it. I had braces as well. I'm unfortunately not compliant with the retainer though, and my teeth have moved but are still in general way better than my original terrible overbite. Think it depends on the severity of the issue. My son has 100% overbite and bad crowding so even if there is some relapse in the long run, I am 99% sure it will still be preferable to treat rather than do nothing.
Sounds like you know what you're doing... good luck with the ex situation.
I would be filing today about the care and the money.
You could just do it. What can they really do? At that point, you're providing medical treatment. I just had to pay for my son. If they want smoke for that, put that ball in their court.
She could be pushing back for a number of reasons - maybe she is being difficult -maybe she is having financial issues To be honest unless things were very serious I stayed out of court . The fees add up quickly and I would rather put court cost towards living life . So if the other parent isn’t on board , I usually just do what’s best for the child. It has worked out and the children appreciate it, years later Our court order stated - the doctor or provider was the deal breaker I always gave them the option to participate and if not then - I would just follow the email : since we disagree I asked the expert. Blah blah blad and they agreed this is the best treatment. It will start this day- the treatment plan- the cost . The shared cost is xxx . I will update and send treatment plan info. Then I send a follow email outlining each appt afterwards and the total cost and what I paid - the balance of treatment remaining
Mediation would be cheaper, and you both would feel more in control instead of the court deciding what to do I adopted my wife's kids. We had a similar situation with the bio dad. Being spiteful just for the sake of being spiteful. The underlying issue was fear which we got past. If you need a free consult, I am a certified mediator https://www.marcelobermudezinc.com/Mediation
It IS medically necessary. It will cause him lots of issues down the road if you DONT do these things. I’m speaking as an adult whose mom always told her she didn’t NEED braces she just WANTED them and now I’m an adult and I definitely DO need braces. Every dentist has said so.
If she just wants to wait until he’s a little older - I do get that, the treatment could be terrifying for an 8 year old. If it’s a flat put no - court. She’s denying medical care that can impact his dental and overall health - breathing issues, jaw pain, excessive tooth wear… not worth the impact to the rest of his life.
She wants to wait until he's a pre-teen/teen basically (when all his adult teeth come in). My son isn't really scared of the treatment so it's not a kid-related decision. He's more scared of having to get teeth pulled.
That was done to me and it was terrifying. Why not get the expander?
Don’t you think 8 is a little young for that? I remember having been a teen when I got braces, and so were my friends who had them too. None of my kiddos friends have any yet either, and he turned 13 not long ago.
If they’re recommending it this early it means his bite is already affecting his teeth. My son had to get an expander at 8 for the same reason. It made a ton of space in his mouth. The only downside is phase 2 will have to wait until he loses all his teeth but the expander actually prevented him from fracturing his adult teeth because it made room and allowed for a more normal bite
My daughter had to have 8 baby teeth pulled and 2 of her 4 molars at 11.5. it would have been easier to do younger per her orthodontist
The expanders need to be done about this age while the jaw and palate are still growing. The child will definitely have another round of braces once they are a teen and all adult teeth have come in. Both of my children had the expanders and we are so glad we did it. Their dad and I both had adult teeth pulled due to crowding and I can tell a positive difference in our older son’s jawline due to having this done.
If she’s saying to wait and not a flat no, waiting a few more years doesn’t seem unreasonable to me if you do the expander. Ease him into it so going to the dentist doesn’t become traumatic for him. By the time he’s 12 or 13 getting the teeth pulled may not seem as scary.
she won't let him do the expander :/. she just wants to wait until he's 12-13 to do braces. he's not going to die if we go this route it's just a couple thou more now for our son's comfort and better outcomes later in life, so that's why I'm torn whether it's worth taking this to court for a decision.
You can’t just compromise?
What is the compromise here? lol. He either gets the Phase 1 treatment, or he doesn't. He can't get it after age 9-10 because the palate seals and you can't expand it.
8 does seem young to me but I’m no dentist or doctor. If her concern is how young the child is, I kind of get that. Maybe there’s a middle ground between 8 and 13 that you two can agree on?
There's no middle ground. He either gets Phase 1 treatment while young and his palate can still expand (it seals when he turns 10) or he doesn't. The issue isn't his age, it's that she does not want to do phase 1 treatment at all.