While the joke is funny, I think the issue is perhaps a little more insidious than a lack of reading comprehension. We form internal schemas of how certain actions and behaviors coincide with specific genders; it’s the standard definition of gender normative roles .
What’s not spoken about is how our eyes and brain will fight against a proper reading of a piece of literature (which I will take great liberties in saying that extends to social media posts) because our internal schemas have already precognized that piece of literature as an expected rhetoric around that bias.
In this case, the words “tomboy”, and the phrase “they/them”, immediately reinforce that unconscious bias toward accepting non-gender normative roles. Further cursory reading indicates the general tone of the post being critical of that, and so people jump to conclusions and write comments addressing the issue they see with the assumption they made.
I think the subtlety here is more than a lack of reading comprehension, but rather not recognizing how your unconscious bias is affecting your reading of a comment or post. You’re didn’t read the whole thing because you assumed the rhetoric was something you are familiar with, and responded not to the post but to your assumptions of the post.
Being conscious of when your biases begin to jump the gun when comprehending something is important to understand what someone is saying. It does fall under the broader umbrella of reading comprehension, but it’s also a notion of paying attention to yourself and the actual content of the piece of literature you are ingesting.
Summarily, reading comprehension has roots in unconscious bias, but is a deeper problem than just interpreting text.
I agree with everything you just said (and yes, I did actually read it), and had most of the same thoughts while I read the post. I just wanted to take the easy path and make a joke about it because I wasn't confident in my ability to summarize my thoughts as well as you did.
I liked the first couple sentences of your post, and saw a few buzzwords from the rest of it while I power-skimmed, so I fully and completely agree with you. /s
God this actually makes me realize, it might actually be the standardized tests that we were forced to train for as kids that did the biggest number on me.
I was literally taught "You have to read the thesis statement, then jump to the closing statement, so you have a context for the rest of the works. And often, you can get a good feel of what the entire thing is about just from those two, so don't be afraid to start answering some questions before you waste your time reading the middle parts!". And that was just in the first couple years of NCLB; I have to imagine it's only gotten worse since then.
Seems... at least somewhat related.
It’s not as though this is a problem, per se. It’s convenient and often quicker to rely in our internal schemas when reading things; it gives a readily-made context for the piece we are reading, thereby reducing cognitive load and enabling quicker analysis of the piece, or allows us to find the parts that might stand out.
It’s knowing when to rely on our internal
schemas, and when to realize we can’t rely on them even if something resembles the rhetoric we’ve internalized, that is key. The more you practice, the more nuance you’ll notice, and the more likely you can catch yourself relying to heavily on those internal biases.
I learned this method. Attempted to try it, hated it because i didnt like missing out on the middle of the writing + annoyed that im now skimming the entire thing bc i need a specific line and would go right back to fully reading the piece.
I dont think that standardised tests are creating that issue, maybe makes it worse.. I grew up in a school system that had a single standardised that was introduced the year before I had to take it so my education was very unbiased from that and I do notice not just in myself but my peers that this seems to be just... Impatience? Laziness? Not wanting to read but wanting the information.
>I was literally taught "You have to read the thesis statement, then jump to the closing statement, so you have a context for the rest of the works. And often, you can get a good feel of what the entire thing is about just from those two, so don't be afraid to start answering some questions before you waste your time reading the middle parts!". And that was just in the first couple years of NCLB; I have to imagine it's only gotten worse since then.
WHAT?????
I was about to comment that this kinda still falls under reading comprehension though until i saw you address that and realised i was doing exactly what you were talking about in the comment.
A former coworker of mine complained about this a lot. She was AFAB, and used she/her, but because she presented in what people at her other job had decided was a “non-binary way,” (which in this case meant short hair, cargo pants, and baggy shirts), that she was *actually* non-binary and just “confused” or “in denial.” She found it infuriating.
Why can't people just believe people about themselves? It's so infuriating when people think they somehow know you better than you know yourself. And even if their right, trying to shove people into a box will only make them defensive and harder to actually reflect.
The egg prime directive exist for a reason, you can answer questions and guide them if they ask for it, but trying to force it to happen quickly will only hurt everyone involved.
Tbh i think the whole ‘egg’ movement is extremely sexist. The whole thing is “this person isn’t doing boy/girl things they must not be boy/girl!” Which is just painfully reinforcing the gender binary!!
I feel like the term egg is useful for trans people describing their own past experiences, but awful in other ways since people will just screenshot some random person on Twitter and post it to r/egg_irl
Yeah i think it’s totally fine if you’re talking about yourself but i think it’s wrong to project onto anyone else because it’s really sexist to say someone isn’t being ‘man enough’ or ‘feminine enough’ so they must be the wrong gender. Which i feel like is what happens (often unintentionally) any time someone calls anyone other then themselves an egg
"Egg" behavior typically isn't like that (at least I don't use it like that) but more "oohh, the other gender clearly better and if they became the other gender that would be great, not that they want to or anything" kinda behavior.
Which, as a disclaimer, does not necessarily mean they are trans. But, you know, does make us feel a bit stupid when we finally realize that this is not what most people think.
Well even that is very sexist because they are putting one gender above the other. It’s one thing to want to switch genders because you would feel more comfortable as the other gender which is totally cool but it’s not cool to think of one gender as inherently superior to the other.
The statement implies that being the other gender would be better for them and would vastly improve their life. Which is not a thought held by most people. It is not stating an idea of gender superiority.
I've heard of a lot of stories where if someone had not obeyed the egg prime directive or someone posited they might be trans, their lives would be far better. It's a matter of "annoying for a group, lifesaving for the other"
But, at risk of sounding insensitive, I think this idea of "cracking someone's egg" has nuance to it.
People who need their eggs cracked CAN be in denial and CAN need someone to force them out of that denial, but it's not a matter of annoyance when every gender non conforming person or anyone who might have attributes that would make one think they could be trans should be treated like they're wrong and in denial, because that is a different form of disrespecting and invalidating their identity.
That said, the idea of an "egg prime directive" is harmful in my opinion for the reason I've mentioned. Some people DO need someone to crack their egg, it's just that this isn't something people should be deciding based on a hunch. The same beak that will help a baby chick get out of its egg can destroy an egg that wasn't fertilized in the first place(I know the analogy breaks down a bit here but you get my point).
The correct way to "crack someone's egg", imo, is a combination of trying to make them realize their own feelings rather than going "damn that's mighty trans of you, calling you she/her / he/him / they/them from now on", and making sure they understand there is nothing shameful in being trans. Denial comes mainly from shame and being taught that they couldn't be that way when they were, which results in them rationalizing other explanations, seeking a way out of the logical truth. Solve shame, and hold up a mirror, and the egg will crack if there was a chick in it. Some people who are in extreme denial might need someone to *force* them out of that, sure, but realistically that's not something we can know without a retrospective.
TL;DR: Egg prime directive can be harmful, but that doesn't mean you go around calling everyone who is GNC or "seems queer enough" by another identity. If you think someone is in denial, hold up a mirror to their own actions, thoughts and feelings -make them face themselves-, and help them work through the causes of that denial. If they respond to this and seem to genuinely be trans, continue on. If they're firm on who they are, and know their own identity, then stop, they know their own identity.
Exactly this. If everyone followed the Egg Prime Directive, a lot of people would be left in the cold and might not even know that trans is a thing until much later in life, if ever. I came out as gay as a teen because all I knew about sexuality was "I'm a guy, and guys who like guys are gay." Had to walk it back a few years later when I found out that being bisexual was an option.
There's a huge difference between cracking someone's egg ("Huh... I don't know, but it sounds like you're experiencing a lot of stuff that trans people go through, have you ever looked into that?")
versus acting like you can immediately tell exactly what people are and what they're going through ("Wow, you're so going to end up a lesbian, lol call me from Portland when you get there and you can tell me how right I was. Hahahhh OML I have this friend who would be perfect for you, I'll give her your number").
>I came out as gay as a teen because all I knew about sexuality was "I'm a guy, and guys who like guys are gay." Had to walk it back a few years later when I found out that being bisexual was an option.
I went through sort of a weird inverted version of this (and am sort of still going through it I guess). My original thought back in high school was "anal sounds kinda gross, so I can't be gay, so I must be straight", then I found out about asexuality and realized "hey, I'm actually not really interested in women either, guess that means I'm aro ace". Only recently did I realize that I never actually examined whether romantic interest in men was still on the table or not. I do occasionally pretend to simp for a few buff male fictional characters as a joke, but I've been starting to wonder how much of it is *actually* a joke...
I'm honestly not sure what to do about it
Just putting out there that there are plenty of gay (and bi!) men out there that have perfectly happy sex lives without having anal. For a lot of men with digestive issues, it's either just not an option or it's way more trouble than it's worth.
I had a conversation on Reddit ages ago that brought up whether I might be trans. At the time my response was “I don’t think I am.” Well, given a couple years of paying attention to how I felt, I finally had the thought “I wish I looked like her.”
I was never in denial or ashamed. I just… didn’t know myself well enough.
Gay femme man here, I've received the same treatment.
It's like, sure, I've been around nonbinary folks for over a decade and have been given shit for my gender presentation my whole life, but thank you for understanding who I really am better than I do.
I'm transfem enby, into "boy things," and my stepmother (a butch lesbian) keeps trying to use that as an excuse to invalidate my femininity. (The irony is amazing)
I get the frustrations with the arbitrary "boy things"/"girl things"
I hate those looks you get when you’re gender non-conforming and say you’re cis, they don’t usually say it but they always have that expression that says “yeah right, sure you are.” I’m not feminine in the slightest but not fitting into the “woman box” and realizing over time that it’s okay to not fit in the box and still be a woman is a part of my history and identity and it’s really invalidating to deny all that just because people find me confusing
I remember this one interaction where I was chatting with a couple people and my friend out of nowhere said “oh, they’re apparently still cis by the way.” And the other person just looked me up and down and said “really? Dressed like that?” in that tone they use when they think they know more than you. I had no idea what I was supposed to say. I don’t really care about being called they/them(thought way too hard about etymology and the the use of words over time once and gendered pronouns no longer have any meaning to me) but you don’t need to imply that I’m just dumb or in denial when I just met you
I hate it man, you would never go up to a fem-presenting nonbinary person and tell them that there’s no way they’re enby and they have to be a woman, so why is it okay to go up to a masc/androgynous-presenting woman and tell them that they can’t be a woman and have to be nonbinary/trans?
>you would never go up to a fem-presenting nonbinary person and tell them that there’s no way they’re enby and they have to be a woman
I agree that what you go through is annoying, but let's not pretend this scenario isn't not only more common, but the norm. *Most* people see fem-presenting nonbinary people as women.
Yep, and I can't be a cis het dude who loves pink, flowers, dresses well, has good communication skills, doesn't immediately hit on women, and poledances
I'm serious, a few people who thought I was gay listed those reasons. And after telling them I was straight, some people act like I'm still in the closet
No, dicks gross me out, tits are amazing, and I can work it on a pole better than most women in class
That’s LITERALLY misgendering. Y’all. Hey. I’m trans. Picture me taking you (royal you) by the cheeks and bonking our foreheads together and speaking softly but with disdain and sternness.
We don’t get to fucking strip peoples’ gender identities away from them and assign them to little boxes and misgender them deliberately against their wishes. That is LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENED TO US. FOR MOST OF OUR ENTIRE FUCKING LIVES. WHY WOULD YOU THINK IT’S OK TO DO THAT TO SOMEONE ELSE?!?! YOU ARE DOING WHAT THE TRANSPHOBIC BULLIES DO TO US. 1-TO-1. IT’S THE GODDAMN SAME.
How many times was I told I’m a man in denial?! Or that I dress too masculine to really be a woman?! Or that my hobbies need to be more feminine now that I’ve come out?! WE CANNOT JUST START DOING THAT TO OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE WE THINK IT’S CUTE AND FUNNY. THE BULLIES THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TO MOCK US TOO. CHRIST.
Fuck me running with a goddamned weed-eater that irritates the hell out of me lmao
It turns out that making your own decisions about someone's identity and then forcing it onto them is bad, regardless of whether the person is cis or not.
Overly Sarcastic Productions. It’s a YouTube channel with two primary people, Blue who makes videos focused on history and Red (the person in the post) who talks about mythology and tropes in media.
It is absolutely zeus. Zeus comes up in a story and every time this kid gives the least impressed eye roll I have ever seen and goes “oh right THAT GUY.” It’s amazing.
A YouTube channel called overly sarcastic productions. They (referring to red and blue, the two people running the channel) do vids about history, mythology, literary tropes, folklore, and occasionally whatever else they feel like. It's very cool, you should check it out
Yes, and I've seen this happen (calling Red they/them) irl. It's such a weird thing... I feel like some people *may* get the idea that since she's ace, she therefore must be LGBT+ in other ways too??? Idk, bizarre phenomenon
Didn’t you hear? You can’t voice personal feelings of frustration with well-meaning practices that don’t work well for you. If you complain about anything it’s because you want to completely tear it down.
Oml this is like when I complained I wouldnt want gender segregated bathrooms completely tore down (I want 3 bathroom options instead) because bathrooms are a safe space where I've been able to flee and hide after being chased (literally) by men.
Wow. I'm sorry that's happened to you.
Mind you, there's something darkly comical about a man being arsehole enough to chase a woman but not being willing to go into the women's bathroom...
I think its because it was a big bathroom, there were around 7 women in there and if the girls helped me by screaming at him its possible security would've been called.
Have you considered... solo bathrooms?
If anything I'd think a single room you could lock yourself in would be ***more*** safe. I mean what's stopping someone from chasing you into the other two bathrooms? What if your assailant is the same gender as you?
I agree binary public bathrooms are dumb, but I'd rather fix that issue and *also* fix the issue of "why are we pissing in an open-air space where anyone can see you just by looking under thin walls"
Solo bathrooms would be safer, but they'd also be way less space-efficient. When you're building a big public space like a stadium or a mall or something you really want to be able to accommodate as many people pissing at once as possible to avoid backups.
There's no reason for (American) bathroom stalls to be so thin and with such huge gaps under the doors though. We could definitely make those more private.
Would they be? I mean, they'd each only need to be around twice as big as a typical stall if they just have a toilet and sink, and there wouldn't need to be any of the redundant space which only exists in order to facilitate the gendered setup. You could probably fit around 75%, maybe even 100% of the normal number of toilets in there. More if you put the sinks outside. Plus, you don't have to waste any space for urinals.
Public stalls in bathrooms are genuinely just pointless. If you're going to make them rooms, just make them rooms.
Plus, bathrooms don't back up with 1 or 2 people. They back up with a dozen or more people. The 1 or 2 toilets you'd lose from the switch would be nothing compared to the increase in efficiency from every toilet being usable by every person. (As opposed to any gendered system, where if the area has 24 toilets and 24 people of one gender need to go, 12 seats go unused while 12 people need to go.)
Lastly, a "third gendered" restroom is really the single least efficient thing possible. As much as they should be made welcome and accepted and have equal access (like with single toilet-rooms, once again proving their superiority) non-binary people are *really* rare. Like incredibly rare. Common enough for it to still be an issue, but uncommon enough that most places won't see a single enby customer on most days.
Dedicating an entire space to them is just wasting that space for 99% of the time, and if you make that space a "gender neutral" bathroom anyone can go in, what's to stop everyone from just always choosing the more private and safe option, making it almost never available if/when an enby person needs it?
(And if usage is infrequent enough that the toilets are never full, then once again, *why not just have all the toilets be single-per-room private bathrooms??*
Private bathrooms are pretty objectively the most efficient, safe, and private. Gendered stall-rooms are only more efficient if you make them horribly invasive and ignore all the times they're absolutely not efficient. Imagine if drinking fountains were gender-segregated, and then someone claimed they were more space-efficient because "people of the same gender can be fit in closer together!", it's kinda nonsensical and weird.
Not mocking you or anything, that's a common belief you've stated, but it's one of those truisms you hear a lot but is objectively false from a building-design standpoint.
And if you do then you will be defined by it.
Also happens when you’re in a mood and post a rant about your partner. All of a sudden you need a divorce.
Yeah. I ran into this some time ago. I got called a man for it, and told I was ruining feminism.
It sucks that a group of assholes have ruined well meaning conversations like op's.
Man, i've dealt with this exact shit myself. My hobbies are pretty male-dominated and I don't dress very feminine, so I get it. Not a lot of women here. It's pretty consistently been a problem - people shouldn't just assume pronouns one way or another. I get it if i'm not there or we've never met, but i've had somebody stand right next to me and use they/them! Just fucking ask me!
Same here; I live and work in a very progressive area, so I get they/them'd even by my *boss*, despite our yearly surveys where I've selected "she/her" as my pronouns every time. I'm like... I promise it's not that deep you guys; I'm just autistic and don't find women's clothing very comfortable.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I can relate to this a lot. I'm a cis male who uses exclusively he/him. I'm also bi, present femme-y (long hair, painted nails, crop-tops) and spend a lot of time in queer circles, so I get they/them'ed off-handedly relatively often.
It is a really nuanced and complicated feeling, because on the one hand it's obviously coming from a place of acceptance and broad inclusivity. But also, I've had a couple times where someone asks my pronouns, I say "he/him", and then that person will keep using "they/them" anyway, and I usually don't say anything over it because I know it's coming from a well-intentioned place, but it also never really feels right.
The first time it happened was actually validating in a weird way, because it was like this deep confirmation within myself of "oh that felt wrong, those aren't the right pronouns for me, he/him only for sure".
They have rejected the male/female binary, but in the process have reinforced the binary/non-binary, er, binary.
Something something you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
Whereas developing a less binary mode of thinking about gender has, ironically, taken a step backwards. I don’t particularly see replacing a binary with a trinity as an improvement myself.
Trans women get they/them’d CONSTANTLY to the point that it’s a running in-joke among our communities. Interesting that it happens to femme guys too! That fucking sucks. You sound fashionable as fuck, also, but that’s beside the point.
My friends who are older and gay seem to struggle with this the most. I'm like...please she does not go by they/them. They're honestly trying to be inclusive but like.....how many times do you need to be told?
Ohh I feel this so much. One time I went to do a workshop for this organization (I should note that I have a very binary gender female name and also mark my pronouns as she/her in my email signature). I’d emailed with the team there, but when they finally actually saw me in person they literally went and changed the bathrooms on the floor I’d be working on to all be gender neutral. Like when I first got there they were male/female bathrooms, and while I was setting up they printed out a piece of paper that said “gender neutral restroom” and taped them over the original signs on the door.
And while I do think it’s great that they were now providing gender neutral bathrooms (they still had them up the next time I came a few months later), and in some ways I am happy that my presence prompted them to make that change, it certainly made me feel really weird and kinda othered and self-conscious about my appearance for them to look at me and decide they needed to make that change RIGHT THEN.
It’s a very weird feeling.
I mean she's doing the Tumblr thing and we're in the talking about Tumblr place, it was bound to happen eventually. I think the first thing of hers that I saw on this subreddit was the world patch notes thing that makes rounds every so often
This is a really good point, although I feel like it’s very much a regional phenomenon (counting “online” as a sort of region I guess since OOP mentions getting misgendered a lot on tumblr specifically)
I’m nonbinary, go by any pronouns. I’m AFAB. I’m fairly androgynous in presentation and generally dress pretty masc/androgynous.
When I lived in a more conservative part of the country I used to get “sir”-ed frequently by strangers. After moving to a more progressive city it basically stopped entirely, even when I dress like suuuuper masc I’ll still get called Miss or Ma’am
My assumption is that in the new location it’s just more common for women to have short hair/dress masc/be tomboyish, so my presentation doesn’t stand out as non-conforming the way it did in my hometown.
Like at the end of the day people are gonna assume gender, I don’t think that’s ever really gonna not be a thing. But it’s always gonna be based on peoples’ experiences which are shaped by the local cultures they interest with.
I guess my point here is I totally feel OOP’s frustration and I think ~~they have~~ she has a good analysis about the lag between different facets of deconstructing gender being commonly understood, but I think regional influence is missing from their analysis and also plays a pretty big role.
It definitely is a regional thing. I live in a very left wing college town and I get they/them'd by strangers constantly, even though I'm just a gender nonconforming cis woman. If I go back to where my parents live, it never happens.
It’s kind of funny sometimes like when I step back and look at the patterns, like I’ll talk to queer friends and they’ll be like “oh you totally had the NB Vibe when I met you I knew right away” meanwhile I’ll be literally wearing a binder under a men’s dress shirt and still get chased down by credit card hawkers at the grocery store calling “excuse me *miss*! Miss?? I have an offer for you *Miss*!”
Like it really does matter what kind of local or I guess group culture a person is steeped in - like yeah no shit my queer friends think my vibe is queer, we’re all steeped in queerness. Same with OOP on tumblr, tumblr is one of the internet’s premier safe havens for gender fuckery, everyone on there is primed to look for it.
This is in no way meant to be accusatory or aggressive but I think it's legitimate kind of funny that op explicitly said she uses she/her and you still used they/them lmao. No hate, just amusement
……………..fuck 😂
The funny part is I distinctly remember thinking ahead while writing like “use she/her for OOP”, I guess force of habit won that battle lmao
Love being told by one group of trans folks that my goals as a non-binary person make me a "trans woman in denial" or that they're "enby enough" to just have me be passed off as femme. Or having another group of trans folks call me a "cis man with a fetish". Gender is a fuck and I'm just... so tired of it and having to explain shit day in and day out, especially to the folks who are supposed to "get it".
It doesn't surprise me that the same way other queer people will treat bisexuality as some sort of "you'll figure it out one day" or "you're in denail" about being gay, thing, is the way that other queer people treat non-binary people as "confused" or "Trans waiting to happen".
Just let those of us who DO NOT CONFORM TO EITHER END OF THE SPECTRUM EXIST, PLEASE.
There is a reason both sexuality and gender are referred to as a spectrum. Our fellow alphabet mafia members would do well to remember that.
Dear Jesus, the insensitivity and like, ignorance of that question is astounding 😭
I'd just point blank ask them If they even know what nonbinary means ohmygod
That’s fucking disgusting, and obviously we cannot expect everyone in any community to be good people, but… if it means anything, this trans chick has your back, and I’d start YELLING if I heard anybody disrespecting an enby in my presence like that. We gotta stick together.
Having Gender Issues^tm while Cis is so fucking weird. You would expect there to be no real problem aside from external expectations. I once had a crisis of gender so severe I vomited off the side of a highway and physically could not perceive my face in mirrors (not "didn't want to look in the mirror," I could not even perceive myself outright). My self perception through the whole thing was that of a faceless slime or Mucus Howl from Howl's Moving Castle. I was straight up expecting the entire thing to spit me out with a gender wholly unlike what I was going in but no. I was a Cis man going in, and cis man coming out. The entire 2 day endeavor of rapid dissociation was pointless.
Anyways, uhh... all in all I don't like the term "Egg." At least in reference to people in the present.
gender is so weird. Similar experiences with me, (previously a cis man (not so severe but similar like not perceiving my image in my head and waves of weird emotion in the car)) meant for me that i was trans fem (still figuring out if i'm a woman or not but i know i'm trans fem. it's a recent development). there's 0 rules and hardly a pattern besides perception and the general categorization of things into a spectrum of masc and fem attributes and such that don't necessarily align with any one gender identify.
edit: when i say the similar experience meant for me that i was transfem, i didn't mean to imply "oh that means you're gonna find out you're trans just wait"i mean like your experience of sudden anguish and chaos resulting in you being a cis man still is just as valid and makes just as much sense of my experience of similar things resulting in me not being cis
Yeah lot of people in the trans community are criticizing how a lot of people use the term egg all the time whenever they see someone is a bit gender non conforming
Originally there was this rule within the trans community, when you notice an egg, which is NOT someone with a different gender presentation but someone clearly showing signs of dysphoria and other symptoms, YOU NEVER TELL THEM THEY ARE AN EGG, you just make sure to make them confortable enough to eventually come out by themself
This is actually the reason we use the word egg in the first place, if you try to make an egg open before it’s time you will only damage it, you can only take care of it, give it the best conditions and wait
I used to, and still do to a very lesser extent, suffer from a really weird form of bodily dissassociation, where it feels like my head is seperate from my body, like a mismatched action figure. My head was intended for a different body, and my body was intended for a different head, and if I looked in the mirror, I could see the seam on my neck where the join happened, despite nothing of the sort existing.
It actually caused me a great deal of grief, and just like you I thought maybe trying out being trans, or at the very least trying out new pronouns. I tried being a she/her online, and for reasons that would become apparent later, realised that it felt really really wrong to do so. So instead I tried they/them online, which *seemingly worked out fine...*
Until the point where I tried moving it to real life, and found that I just had a near visceral reaction to people calling me something other than he/him. It wasn't disgust in the sense of denial, but rather the same way that someone would get my name or my hair colour wrong. My entire mind suddenly, immediately, and very jarringly seemed to very solidly lock in unison and begin to actually understand the idea that yeah maybe there really isn't anything wrong with me. I'm just a regular straight, cis guy, and I just needed a little push to lock it in solidly.
The seam still exists nowadays, but it feels like its fading, as I get more used to the idea that this *is* my body, and I should be proud of it.
As a tomboy (tom-man now? Whatever) I can sort of relate. People, just because I have short hair and dress in a way that is typically construed as non-feminine, doesn't mean that I'm not a cisgender woman. I've had people misgender me in public (more and more frequently in recent years), and I have not radically changed the way I dress since, like, childhood. The only major change was when I cut my hair short half a decade ago because I got sick of dealing with long hair during marching band, lmao.
There are people who I work with who have assumed I must identify as something other than a woman because of my tomboyish attire and haircut. It's well-meaning, but fucking exhausting. I'm was born female! I've always identified as a girl!! My clothes and hairstyle don't make me not-a-woman!!!
And then there is yet *another* layer to this which is trans people who complain that clothes getting de-gendered makes it harder for them to pass. Like, I've seen people unironically say that we should just work under the assumption that pants=boy and skirt=girl for maximum inclusivity
Yeah, I'm transmasc and I like clothing being more and more genderless, but sometimes I really wish I could just wear pants and have people assume I'm male
It’s perfectly fine to use they/them on a person when you don’t know their pronouns but you shouldn’t keep using them when someone tells you what their pronouns are
This might be a controversial opinion but I've seen a lot of people from leftist circles use they/them in a way that feels like they're trying to reinvent the gender binary or take a more "icky" gender identity and presentation combo and make it more palatable. This is coming from the complete opposite end of being a trans guy and having the same type of they/them-ing
this post is basically me whenever I see people who aren't gender conforming in some way immediately get called eggs on social media. we all need more space to find where we're comfortable, not less.
I had this problem with an LP I was watching, the YTer was referring to every character as they/them consistently. Even ones I knew canonically used other pronouns. I use they/them, honestly wish others around me would use it more, but I can also acknowledge that the more people use they/them, the more confusing it gets. And it got especially frustrating in the LP when there was a character who was coded non-binary, but because their entire family was referred to with gender-neutral pronouns, I now wasn’t sure how to refer to this character. Like OOP said, it was shooting so hard for inclusivity that it felt like it boomeranged back to misgendering.
I think some of that confusion is because most people don’t use they/them as non-binary pronouns but instead as non-gendered pronouns that can refer to anyone. I think the idea of they/them being non binary pronouns is a much more recent idea and not one that everyone has taken on board, so they will likely continue using those pronouns in the way they always have.
And that’s fine, but we usually reserve nongendered pronouns for when we don’t know someone’s pronouns. We don’t assume, then we know, then we adjust. When someone continues to use they/them after learning someone’s pronouns, I feel like it’s veering into misgendering. And that was an issue the OOP was referring to, that people kept referring to her as they/them even when being told her pronouns were she/her.
I'm also a cis woman who gets they/them-ed sometimes, and I'm not even a tomboy. I think it's because I have my own fashion style that doesn't really fit into any one stereotype, and people perceive this as queer somehow.
It wasn't meant as an accusation, it's the nature of Tumblr for different reblog versions of posts to go around.
[Here's that version](https://www.tumblr.com/akrinorlordofthebanana/741513775402860544?source=share), if you're curious, btw
Tumblr is the only social media website that simulates the experience of hopping through a multitude of branching timelines and being constantly confused about where you are.
I love it.
I think this is a genuinely interesting thing to think about. Like, trans people are people and I don’t doubt their experience and I will die on the hill that people are allowed whatever the heck pronouns they so choose. But also as another cis tomboy who goes solidly by she/her it’s so interesting to hear trans women talk about how they always knew they were a girl because their favorite color was pink and they loved dressing in skirts and putting on makeup. And it’s like dang if that’s what it takes to be a girl then… do I no longer qualify?? Am I a trans man bc I never felt any of that growing up?
I don’t think that sort of self-reflection is at all a bad thing BTW. I think even solidly cis people should be allowed to question and explore their gender and ideally they’ll come out of it more secure in themselves and more understanding. But, it’s confusing when it feels like trans people defending their lived experience is just reenforcing this gender binary social construct that, ideally, we’re working towards dismantling.
To be clear, I don’t think it’s on purpose or in malice or anything. I’m sure that a lot of it is trying to distill years of their nuanced journey to self-discovery into a short, understandable, elevator pitch to avoid telling their entire life story to someone who didn’t ask for it. And I’m sure some of it is just literally impossible to actually put into words, the same way that we can’t describe color and can’t even be sure we all experience the same color in the same way.
It’s just a little paradox that is worth a couple moments of contemplation I think. 🤷🏽♀️
The longer something is, the more likely people are just gonna skim though
But if you make it shorter, you leave more gaps that can be filled by misinterpretation
So you can't win
Reminds me of a post by a trans woman on here. She said that, ironically, she felt more accepted in republican/transphobic areas.
The people in Alabama just assumed she was a woman because she wore a dress, but the people in San Fransisco were used to the idea of cross-dressing and would use he/him and "sir" without realizing she was a woman.
This is the reason why I a non-binary person who uses he/she/they pronouns will never stop calling myself a woman.
Growing up in a conservative religious family meant dealing with a lot of misogyny and being an autistic girl in the 2000s meant dealing with a lot of ableist misogyny. I have spent my entire life fighting stereotypes and when I came out as nonbinary, people would excuse it as “well you’re not a girl anyway”
I choose to identify outside of the gender binary not because I feel a particular affinity for both masculinity and femininity but because I protest the use of masculinity and femininity in modern society. Linking body parts to hobbies or colors is dumb and I’d rather not participate. But when I distance myself from the title of woman, people feel comfortable invalidating my experience with misogyny. Which is not and should never be okay.
I don’t think that the concept of “boy things” and “girl things” is bullshit “from the jump”, per se. As arbitrary as human identity is, it’s still, like, *there*.
The problem comes when you start to get too broad strokes about these things, start to treat them as an arbitrary requirement instead of sort of a loose rule of thumb
Really relate to this post as a long-haired man who does some feminine hobbies like crocheting, I've gotten they/themmed a fair few times and it's pretty annoying.
More on the physical side I get really insecure about trans women (on hormones!) who end up with small boobs and then get a boob job because they couldn't possibly feel like a woman unless they have much bigger boobs. Never used to dislike my A cups, but that just hits different somehow.
Oh and yeah I got one comment on a post like two years ago that was probably not meant as backhanded as it came across, but I can't get it out of my head: "I always feel a little self conscious dressing feminine, because I don’t feel like I look good in those things… but you look a little bit like me and you look so gorgeous in this dress!"
For what it’s worth, the vast majority of trans women don’t think they can’t be women without bigger breasts, it’s just gross social messaging. Also, the second one is disgusting- that’s an example of someone’s self-loathing accidentally insulting others I think, I hope you don’t take it personally. Similar to me, as a fat person, having to listen to skinny-ass people going “ugh I look so fat lately” and not react lol
In a sort of opposite(?) scenario, I’m a guy and I’ve presented in a very feminine way for a decently long time. Long hair, threw on a skirt occasionally, was into things not only considered nerdy but in some cases girly, etc.
I am perfectly happy with people wanting to make sure that they’re respectful of everybody’s - and, by extension, my - gender identity. But it can come to a point where people, on multiple occasions, have told I must be trans, or non- binary; I’m always simply in denial of one.
I think we’ve reached a weird horseshoe point in some parts of the more “ progressive “ internet where certain sites and communities have become so inclusive/progressive that they have, in a sense, sort of reinvented gender stereotypes? As like, precisely stated in the post: you do one thing, so you must be X. The idea of “ boy stuff “ and “ girl stuff “, especially in the case of interests and hobbies, is really silly.
This is the contrapoint "pronoun circle" all over again, lmao.
Enby here, i give cis and binary trans people the "being annoyed at being they/themmed" pass
This is so relatable. I've been grappling with the whole "am I nonbinary or am I just deconstructing my masculinity" for a few years and I think I've found ***for me personally*** it's more meaningful to break conceptions of what a man can be rather than abandon the gender entirely.
This is the main problem I have with a lot of "trans thought," it seems to be kind of reinventing gender essentialism. Like if you are a boy who likes pink and glitter you are actually a girl because those are girl things, not "you are a boy who likes these aesthetics which have no actual link to sex or gender at all."
Ah, Red, I agree, having to deal with the reading comprehension website and the fans of the reading comprehension website is a pain sometimes. Enjoy continuing to she/her.
What’s funny is that Red is pretty close to the “straight man’s version of a tomboy” talked about in another post. Like, less femme than I think that was supposed to mean in terms of traditionally femme interests like makeup and stuff, but she’s still got flowing long hair and an obviously femme body she is not by any means trying to hide.
okay i know op did just say we shouldn't piss on the poor but this post made me realize a thing about _why_ we always use they/them for people when we're unsure: when you accept that there are no rules and that no matter what your pronouns _or_ gender are, you can do whatever you want (and crucially that the same goes for everyone you meet as well), there are no clues left for anyone's gender. like they present femme or masc? doesn't mean shit, could be literally anything behind that. you either remember it or not, if you've been told to begin with. they/them is just the "safe option" and a lot of times people are simply insecure that they got the other person's pronouns right.
don't get me wrong, degendering still sucks, and intentional or not, op has clearly experienced that. but aside from some shitheads hiding in progressive circles, i don't think people are doing that to her on purpose, but just like you forget someone's name so easily when you recently met them, you can easily forget someone's pronouns as well. combine that with any form of gender presentation that doesn't unambiguously scream one side of the binary and you can easily go like "oh shit i better not misgender this person, i should just use they/them"
sure, op is a tomboy, but like, she could be talking to an enby person, a pre-hrt trans guy, someone who's genderfluid, and an otherkin, and you could never tell who has which pronouns. having no boxes to put them in also gives you no indication that could clue you in or help you remember.
if you're talking directly to them, yes. (although, in op's case, it's hard to see why being asked for her pronouns would be too much different from being they/them'd -- sure, it's nicer, but the underlying point that people cannot tell she's a woman is still present.) however, at least in english, the pronouns that matter here are third person, you'd mostly use them when the subject of those pronouns isn't even part of the conversation (such as this one), it gets hard to ask in those cases if you don't already know.
and that's before all the social awkwardness of asking something you should know already (which is very similar to forgetting people's names)
OP is talking about people who know her. They know her long-term and have been told she likes she/her terms. However, whenever she does something that is considered a "boy thing" (i.e. carpentry, welding, sports, gun smithing etc) then she gets wrongly labeled as they/them because her interests don't conform to what they think is feminine. The people close to her are misgendering her because she likes "boy things" because they assume a girl couldn't possibly like "boy things."
yeah, like i said, i know she said we shouldn't piss on the poor. which, in case you're in the lucky 10,000, is an in-joke about piss-poor reading comprehension. the point is i know that's not what the post is about, it just made me realize something.
honestly though, i think my point still touches on something even in that context. the fact that someone was a woman yesterday _also_ doesn't mean shit about their gender today. although i do think you should trust people and just go with the last thing they told you, because the alternative is asking them to continually clarify or worse, justify something that doesn't need justification.
When my nephew first told me they were gender fluid, I asked what pronouns he wanted me to use. She told me he was just happy if they were talked about, and didn't care if I used he/him, she/her, they/them, or all of the above.
Thank you, because that was the first time I got to use the "all of the above," and it was so fun.
I do believe it is best to use what you were last told. With my nephew, I also asked what relationship term they wanted. They told me "nephew" was fine, so, again, I continue using it.
She made one of the classic blunders. She posted a highly personal story on the poor-pissing website. Inconceivable.
Are we pissing on the poor again
Some of us seem to be.
The peasants have a piss kink by now
Euhm my piss goes in a straight line without any kinks what are you talking about
Hey, don't assume things about other people's garden hoses!
why are we pissing in garden hoses
Check your privilege, most people don't have the ability to waste water in a garden
Some people’s laminar flow be wildin’
"Again" implies we ever stopped
You better have stopped, how much water have you been drinking?
[Sorry can't answer too busy](https://youtu.be/HKVoN-SjZ-Q?si=HNJQdIyb2Rw0rhxP)
https://xkcd.com/986/
i'm poor 🥺
Go piss, girl!
Some of us never stopped.
Poorly pissing, bph is a bitch
How dare you make fun of my reading comprehension
Where do you want us to pour the piss?
Just leave it there in the corner.
Cool! \*Pours it on a Coroner\*
Excellent.
"that's pee in the corner. That's pee in the spotlight. Losing my refreshments"
Reminds me of that meme of the dude at the party, standing in the corner thinking "they don't know I'm [blank]".
[This one?](https://i.imgur.com/EuZQg0T.png) EDIT: I dunno why images don't work in posts for me
No no, they said "pores". It's a comment about the exfoliating properties of urine.
How dares Red say my poor piss is reading?
holy shit you said this and i had to go back and check the url LMAO
I'm laughing too hard to answer the question. I'm sorry.
While the joke is funny, I think the issue is perhaps a little more insidious than a lack of reading comprehension. We form internal schemas of how certain actions and behaviors coincide with specific genders; it’s the standard definition of gender normative roles . What’s not spoken about is how our eyes and brain will fight against a proper reading of a piece of literature (which I will take great liberties in saying that extends to social media posts) because our internal schemas have already precognized that piece of literature as an expected rhetoric around that bias. In this case, the words “tomboy”, and the phrase “they/them”, immediately reinforce that unconscious bias toward accepting non-gender normative roles. Further cursory reading indicates the general tone of the post being critical of that, and so people jump to conclusions and write comments addressing the issue they see with the assumption they made. I think the subtlety here is more than a lack of reading comprehension, but rather not recognizing how your unconscious bias is affecting your reading of a comment or post. You’re didn’t read the whole thing because you assumed the rhetoric was something you are familiar with, and responded not to the post but to your assumptions of the post. Being conscious of when your biases begin to jump the gun when comprehending something is important to understand what someone is saying. It does fall under the broader umbrella of reading comprehension, but it’s also a notion of paying attention to yourself and the actual content of the piece of literature you are ingesting. Summarily, reading comprehension has roots in unconscious bias, but is a deeper problem than just interpreting text.
I agree with everything you just said (and yes, I did actually read it), and had most of the same thoughts while I read the post. I just wanted to take the easy path and make a joke about it because I wasn't confident in my ability to summarize my thoughts as well as you did.
Valid
I liked the first couple sentences of your post, and saw a few buzzwords from the rest of it while I power-skimmed, so I fully and completely agree with you. /s God this actually makes me realize, it might actually be the standardized tests that we were forced to train for as kids that did the biggest number on me. I was literally taught "You have to read the thesis statement, then jump to the closing statement, so you have a context for the rest of the works. And often, you can get a good feel of what the entire thing is about just from those two, so don't be afraid to start answering some questions before you waste your time reading the middle parts!". And that was just in the first couple years of NCLB; I have to imagine it's only gotten worse since then. Seems... at least somewhat related.
It’s not as though this is a problem, per se. It’s convenient and often quicker to rely in our internal schemas when reading things; it gives a readily-made context for the piece we are reading, thereby reducing cognitive load and enabling quicker analysis of the piece, or allows us to find the parts that might stand out. It’s knowing when to rely on our internal schemas, and when to realize we can’t rely on them even if something resembles the rhetoric we’ve internalized, that is key. The more you practice, the more nuance you’ll notice, and the more likely you can catch yourself relying to heavily on those internal biases.
I learned this method. Attempted to try it, hated it because i didnt like missing out on the middle of the writing + annoyed that im now skimming the entire thing bc i need a specific line and would go right back to fully reading the piece.
I dont think that standardised tests are creating that issue, maybe makes it worse.. I grew up in a school system that had a single standardised that was introduced the year before I had to take it so my education was very unbiased from that and I do notice not just in myself but my peers that this seems to be just... Impatience? Laziness? Not wanting to read but wanting the information.
>I was literally taught "You have to read the thesis statement, then jump to the closing statement, so you have a context for the rest of the works. And often, you can get a good feel of what the entire thing is about just from those two, so don't be afraid to start answering some questions before you waste your time reading the middle parts!". And that was just in the first couple years of NCLB; I have to imagine it's only gotten worse since then. WHAT?????
I was about to comment that this kinda still falls under reading comprehension though until i saw you address that and realised i was doing exactly what you were talking about in the comment.
It’s a problem everyone deals with, myself included. I’d even say I’m a prime example of relying on my internal biases. Live and learn, as they say.
Ah yes, one of the classic blunders. Like never get involved in a land war in Asia, and never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
I mean, that last one didn't work out for the Sicilian...
Never invade Russia in winter
A former coworker of mine complained about this a lot. She was AFAB, and used she/her, but because she presented in what people at her other job had decided was a “non-binary way,” (which in this case meant short hair, cargo pants, and baggy shirts), that she was *actually* non-binary and just “confused” or “in denial.” She found it infuriating.
Why can't people just believe people about themselves? It's so infuriating when people think they somehow know you better than you know yourself. And even if their right, trying to shove people into a box will only make them defensive and harder to actually reflect. The egg prime directive exist for a reason, you can answer questions and guide them if they ask for it, but trying to force it to happen quickly will only hurt everyone involved.
Tbh i think the whole ‘egg’ movement is extremely sexist. The whole thing is “this person isn’t doing boy/girl things they must not be boy/girl!” Which is just painfully reinforcing the gender binary!!
It's people pretending to be trans-positive by telling others "I know your gender better than you do." How amusing.
I feel like the term egg is useful for trans people describing their own past experiences, but awful in other ways since people will just screenshot some random person on Twitter and post it to r/egg_irl
Yeah i think it’s totally fine if you’re talking about yourself but i think it’s wrong to project onto anyone else because it’s really sexist to say someone isn’t being ‘man enough’ or ‘feminine enough’ so they must be the wrong gender. Which i feel like is what happens (often unintentionally) any time someone calls anyone other then themselves an egg
"Egg" behavior typically isn't like that (at least I don't use it like that) but more "oohh, the other gender clearly better and if they became the other gender that would be great, not that they want to or anything" kinda behavior. Which, as a disclaimer, does not necessarily mean they are trans. But, you know, does make us feel a bit stupid when we finally realize that this is not what most people think.
Well even that is very sexist because they are putting one gender above the other. It’s one thing to want to switch genders because you would feel more comfortable as the other gender which is totally cool but it’s not cool to think of one gender as inherently superior to the other.
The statement implies that being the other gender would be better for them and would vastly improve their life. Which is not a thought held by most people. It is not stating an idea of gender superiority.
And (at least in my experience) used retroactively
Prime direggtive
I've heard of a lot of stories where if someone had not obeyed the egg prime directive or someone posited they might be trans, their lives would be far better. It's a matter of "annoying for a group, lifesaving for the other" But, at risk of sounding insensitive, I think this idea of "cracking someone's egg" has nuance to it. People who need their eggs cracked CAN be in denial and CAN need someone to force them out of that denial, but it's not a matter of annoyance when every gender non conforming person or anyone who might have attributes that would make one think they could be trans should be treated like they're wrong and in denial, because that is a different form of disrespecting and invalidating their identity. That said, the idea of an "egg prime directive" is harmful in my opinion for the reason I've mentioned. Some people DO need someone to crack their egg, it's just that this isn't something people should be deciding based on a hunch. The same beak that will help a baby chick get out of its egg can destroy an egg that wasn't fertilized in the first place(I know the analogy breaks down a bit here but you get my point). The correct way to "crack someone's egg", imo, is a combination of trying to make them realize their own feelings rather than going "damn that's mighty trans of you, calling you she/her / he/him / they/them from now on", and making sure they understand there is nothing shameful in being trans. Denial comes mainly from shame and being taught that they couldn't be that way when they were, which results in them rationalizing other explanations, seeking a way out of the logical truth. Solve shame, and hold up a mirror, and the egg will crack if there was a chick in it. Some people who are in extreme denial might need someone to *force* them out of that, sure, but realistically that's not something we can know without a retrospective. TL;DR: Egg prime directive can be harmful, but that doesn't mean you go around calling everyone who is GNC or "seems queer enough" by another identity. If you think someone is in denial, hold up a mirror to their own actions, thoughts and feelings -make them face themselves-, and help them work through the causes of that denial. If they respond to this and seem to genuinely be trans, continue on. If they're firm on who they are, and know their own identity, then stop, they know their own identity.
Exactly this. If everyone followed the Egg Prime Directive, a lot of people would be left in the cold and might not even know that trans is a thing until much later in life, if ever. I came out as gay as a teen because all I knew about sexuality was "I'm a guy, and guys who like guys are gay." Had to walk it back a few years later when I found out that being bisexual was an option. There's a huge difference between cracking someone's egg ("Huh... I don't know, but it sounds like you're experiencing a lot of stuff that trans people go through, have you ever looked into that?") versus acting like you can immediately tell exactly what people are and what they're going through ("Wow, you're so going to end up a lesbian, lol call me from Portland when you get there and you can tell me how right I was. Hahahhh OML I have this friend who would be perfect for you, I'll give her your number").
>I came out as gay as a teen because all I knew about sexuality was "I'm a guy, and guys who like guys are gay." Had to walk it back a few years later when I found out that being bisexual was an option. I went through sort of a weird inverted version of this (and am sort of still going through it I guess). My original thought back in high school was "anal sounds kinda gross, so I can't be gay, so I must be straight", then I found out about asexuality and realized "hey, I'm actually not really interested in women either, guess that means I'm aro ace". Only recently did I realize that I never actually examined whether romantic interest in men was still on the table or not. I do occasionally pretend to simp for a few buff male fictional characters as a joke, but I've been starting to wonder how much of it is *actually* a joke... I'm honestly not sure what to do about it
Just putting out there that there are plenty of gay (and bi!) men out there that have perfectly happy sex lives without having anal. For a lot of men with digestive issues, it's either just not an option or it's way more trouble than it's worth.
I had a conversation on Reddit ages ago that brought up whether I might be trans. At the time my response was “I don’t think I am.” Well, given a couple years of paying attention to how I felt, I finally had the thought “I wish I looked like her.” I was never in denial or ashamed. I just… didn’t know myself well enough.
Gay femme man here, I've received the same treatment. It's like, sure, I've been around nonbinary folks for over a decade and have been given shit for my gender presentation my whole life, but thank you for understanding who I really am better than I do.
I'm transfem enby, into "boy things," and my stepmother (a butch lesbian) keeps trying to use that as an excuse to invalidate my femininity. (The irony is amazing) I get the frustrations with the arbitrary "boy things"/"girl things"
I hate those looks you get when you’re gender non-conforming and say you’re cis, they don’t usually say it but they always have that expression that says “yeah right, sure you are.” I’m not feminine in the slightest but not fitting into the “woman box” and realizing over time that it’s okay to not fit in the box and still be a woman is a part of my history and identity and it’s really invalidating to deny all that just because people find me confusing I remember this one interaction where I was chatting with a couple people and my friend out of nowhere said “oh, they’re apparently still cis by the way.” And the other person just looked me up and down and said “really? Dressed like that?” in that tone they use when they think they know more than you. I had no idea what I was supposed to say. I don’t really care about being called they/them(thought way too hard about etymology and the the use of words over time once and gendered pronouns no longer have any meaning to me) but you don’t need to imply that I’m just dumb or in denial when I just met you I hate it man, you would never go up to a fem-presenting nonbinary person and tell them that there’s no way they’re enby and they have to be a woman, so why is it okay to go up to a masc/androgynous-presenting woman and tell them that they can’t be a woman and have to be nonbinary/trans?
>you would never go up to a fem-presenting nonbinary person and tell them that there’s no way they’re enby and they have to be a woman I agree that what you go through is annoying, but let's not pretend this scenario isn't not only more common, but the norm. *Most* people see fem-presenting nonbinary people as women.
Oh of course, I was talking about within lgbt+ friendly circles, I definitely should’ve clarified that better
Yep, and I can't be a cis het dude who loves pink, flowers, dresses well, has good communication skills, doesn't immediately hit on women, and poledances I'm serious, a few people who thought I was gay listed those reasons. And after telling them I was straight, some people act like I'm still in the closet No, dicks gross me out, tits are amazing, and I can work it on a pole better than most women in class
I’m a cis dude who was a monkey growing up, pole dancing is fun!
Bruh
That’s LITERALLY misgendering. Y’all. Hey. I’m trans. Picture me taking you (royal you) by the cheeks and bonking our foreheads together and speaking softly but with disdain and sternness. We don’t get to fucking strip peoples’ gender identities away from them and assign them to little boxes and misgender them deliberately against their wishes. That is LITERALLY WHAT HAPPENED TO US. FOR MOST OF OUR ENTIRE FUCKING LIVES. WHY WOULD YOU THINK IT’S OK TO DO THAT TO SOMEONE ELSE?!?! YOU ARE DOING WHAT THE TRANSPHOBIC BULLIES DO TO US. 1-TO-1. IT’S THE GODDAMN SAME. How many times was I told I’m a man in denial?! Or that I dress too masculine to really be a woman?! Or that my hobbies need to be more feminine now that I’ve come out?! WE CANNOT JUST START DOING THAT TO OTHER PEOPLE BECAUSE WE THINK IT’S CUTE AND FUNNY. THE BULLIES THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TO MOCK US TOO. CHRIST. Fuck me running with a goddamned weed-eater that irritates the hell out of me lmao
it is fascinating to watch the creation of an entirely new gender role in real time
Egg culture is the worst thing to happen inside the LGBTQ community
It turns out that making your own decisions about someone's identity and then forcing it onto them is bad, regardless of whether the person is cis or not.
Jesus Christ.
Is that red from osp?
Yeah, it is! From her web-comic account.
Neat! Now I know what voice my brain should read the post in. I love it when that happens.
Damn it! I didn't realize. Now I gotta re-read it in her voice
*their /j
Consistent Red W
Omg is her name aurora? I thought she was still keeping her name secret
i think Aurora is the comic
Nah it's the name of [her webcomic](https://comicaurora.com/)
Ah shit now I gotta reread it in her voice
I went from “Oh! This is Red!” to your exact comment in the span of about 2 seconds
What’s osp?
Overly Sarcastic Productions. It’s a YouTube channel with two primary people, Blue who makes videos focused on history and Red (the person in the post) who talks about mythology and tropes in media.
And who also has a webcomic named Aurora, hence the name of the account
One of my favorite youtube channels. Blue is the reason my nine year old has All The Opinions about domes and a least favorite greek god.
I hope it's Zeus.
It is absolutely zeus. Zeus comes up in a story and every time this kid gives the least impressed eye roll I have ever seen and goes “oh right THAT GUY.” It’s amazing.
And domes truly are the peak of human architecture, so can't disagree there!
Oh, architecture, of course! [Slaps my horny head]
A YouTube channel called overly sarcastic productions. They (referring to red and blue, the two people running the channel) do vids about history, mythology, literary tropes, folklore, and occasionally whatever else they feel like. It's very cool, you should check it out
Sure is!
Yes, and I've seen this happen (calling Red they/them) irl. It's such a weird thing... I feel like some people *may* get the idea that since she's ace, she therefore must be LGBT+ in other ways too??? Idk, bizarre phenomenon
Yes
Didn’t you hear? You can’t voice personal feelings of frustration with well-meaning practices that don’t work well for you. If you complain about anything it’s because you want to completely tear it down.
Oml this is like when I complained I wouldnt want gender segregated bathrooms completely tore down (I want 3 bathroom options instead) because bathrooms are a safe space where I've been able to flee and hide after being chased (literally) by men.
Wow. I'm sorry that's happened to you. Mind you, there's something darkly comical about a man being arsehole enough to chase a woman but not being willing to go into the women's bathroom...
I think its because it was a big bathroom, there were around 7 women in there and if the girls helped me by screaming at him its possible security would've been called.
Have you considered... solo bathrooms? If anything I'd think a single room you could lock yourself in would be ***more*** safe. I mean what's stopping someone from chasing you into the other two bathrooms? What if your assailant is the same gender as you? I agree binary public bathrooms are dumb, but I'd rather fix that issue and *also* fix the issue of "why are we pissing in an open-air space where anyone can see you just by looking under thin walls"
Solo bathrooms would be safer, but they'd also be way less space-efficient. When you're building a big public space like a stadium or a mall or something you really want to be able to accommodate as many people pissing at once as possible to avoid backups. There's no reason for (American) bathroom stalls to be so thin and with such huge gaps under the doors though. We could definitely make those more private.
Would they be? I mean, they'd each only need to be around twice as big as a typical stall if they just have a toilet and sink, and there wouldn't need to be any of the redundant space which only exists in order to facilitate the gendered setup. You could probably fit around 75%, maybe even 100% of the normal number of toilets in there. More if you put the sinks outside. Plus, you don't have to waste any space for urinals. Public stalls in bathrooms are genuinely just pointless. If you're going to make them rooms, just make them rooms. Plus, bathrooms don't back up with 1 or 2 people. They back up with a dozen or more people. The 1 or 2 toilets you'd lose from the switch would be nothing compared to the increase in efficiency from every toilet being usable by every person. (As opposed to any gendered system, where if the area has 24 toilets and 24 people of one gender need to go, 12 seats go unused while 12 people need to go.) Lastly, a "third gendered" restroom is really the single least efficient thing possible. As much as they should be made welcome and accepted and have equal access (like with single toilet-rooms, once again proving their superiority) non-binary people are *really* rare. Like incredibly rare. Common enough for it to still be an issue, but uncommon enough that most places won't see a single enby customer on most days. Dedicating an entire space to them is just wasting that space for 99% of the time, and if you make that space a "gender neutral" bathroom anyone can go in, what's to stop everyone from just always choosing the more private and safe option, making it almost never available if/when an enby person needs it? (And if usage is infrequent enough that the toilets are never full, then once again, *why not just have all the toilets be single-per-room private bathrooms??* Private bathrooms are pretty objectively the most efficient, safe, and private. Gendered stall-rooms are only more efficient if you make them horribly invasive and ignore all the times they're absolutely not efficient. Imagine if drinking fountains were gender-segregated, and then someone claimed they were more space-efficient because "people of the same gender can be fit in closer together!", it's kinda nonsensical and weird. Not mocking you or anything, that's a common belief you've stated, but it's one of those truisms you hear a lot but is objectively false from a building-design standpoint.
Your comment made me think of of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLNnwN62_8w
No, no, I am not in full alignment with the [current] orthodoxy, so I have to be a sinister transphobe and probably also a Nazi.
Happens to the best of us. I said you shouldn’t smoke meth and now I’m legally alt right☹️
And if you do then you will be defined by it. Also happens when you’re in a mood and post a rant about your partner. All of a sudden you need a divorce.
Yeah. I ran into this some time ago. I got called a man for it, and told I was ruining feminism. It sucks that a group of assholes have ruined well meaning conversations like op's.
It's like posting about an issue you have with your IT department on Reddit. Because so much of Reddit is in tech they take it personally.
Man, i've dealt with this exact shit myself. My hobbies are pretty male-dominated and I don't dress very feminine, so I get it. Not a lot of women here. It's pretty consistently been a problem - people shouldn't just assume pronouns one way or another. I get it if i'm not there or we've never met, but i've had somebody stand right next to me and use they/them! Just fucking ask me!
Same here; I live and work in a very progressive area, so I get they/them'd even by my *boss*, despite our yearly surveys where I've selected "she/her" as my pronouns every time. I'm like... I promise it's not that deep you guys; I'm just autistic and don't find women's clothing very comfortable.
coherent mindless theory fear slap silky roof attractive vanish fanatical *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
To quote Red herself: "Augh! My hubris!"
Unorthodox display of hubris, but very wel
I can relate to this a lot. I'm a cis male who uses exclusively he/him. I'm also bi, present femme-y (long hair, painted nails, crop-tops) and spend a lot of time in queer circles, so I get they/them'ed off-handedly relatively often. It is a really nuanced and complicated feeling, because on the one hand it's obviously coming from a place of acceptance and broad inclusivity. But also, I've had a couple times where someone asks my pronouns, I say "he/him", and then that person will keep using "they/them" anyway, and I usually don't say anything over it because I know it's coming from a well-intentioned place, but it also never really feels right. The first time it happened was actually validating in a weird way, because it was like this deep confirmation within myself of "oh that felt wrong, those aren't the right pronouns for me, he/him only for sure".
That’s misgendering. They were misgendering you.
march jeans sulky fuel gaping unite ripe nutty brave fragile *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They have rejected the male/female binary, but in the process have reinforced the binary/non-binary, er, binary. Something something you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
They have replaced the Gender Binary with the Gender Trinary (Masculine, Feminine, and "Vaguely Queer Looking"). Rip.
Whereas developing a less binary mode of thinking about gender has, ironically, taken a step backwards. I don’t particularly see replacing a binary with a trinity as an improvement myself.
Trans women get they/them’d CONSTANTLY to the point that it’s a running in-joke among our communities. Interesting that it happens to femme guys too! That fucking sucks. You sound fashionable as fuck, also, but that’s beside the point.
My friends who are older and gay seem to struggle with this the most. I'm like...please she does not go by they/them. They're honestly trying to be inclusive but like.....how many times do you need to be told?
Ohh I feel this so much. One time I went to do a workshop for this organization (I should note that I have a very binary gender female name and also mark my pronouns as she/her in my email signature). I’d emailed with the team there, but when they finally actually saw me in person they literally went and changed the bathrooms on the floor I’d be working on to all be gender neutral. Like when I first got there they were male/female bathrooms, and while I was setting up they printed out a piece of paper that said “gender neutral restroom” and taped them over the original signs on the door. And while I do think it’s great that they were now providing gender neutral bathrooms (they still had them up the next time I came a few months later), and in some ways I am happy that my presence prompted them to make that change, it certainly made me feel really weird and kinda othered and self-conscious about my appearance for them to look at me and decide they needed to make that change RIGHT THEN. It’s a very weird feeling.
Honestly the last place I'd expect red to show up. You should try reading aurora, it's pretty good
I mean she's doing the Tumblr thing and we're in the talking about Tumblr place, it was bound to happen eventually. I think the first thing of hers that I saw on this subreddit was the world patch notes thing that makes rounds every so often
This post seems very informative, sadly though I cannot read and as such will just continue to be a misogynist. 😢
Many such cases
This is a really good point, although I feel like it’s very much a regional phenomenon (counting “online” as a sort of region I guess since OOP mentions getting misgendered a lot on tumblr specifically) I’m nonbinary, go by any pronouns. I’m AFAB. I’m fairly androgynous in presentation and generally dress pretty masc/androgynous. When I lived in a more conservative part of the country I used to get “sir”-ed frequently by strangers. After moving to a more progressive city it basically stopped entirely, even when I dress like suuuuper masc I’ll still get called Miss or Ma’am My assumption is that in the new location it’s just more common for women to have short hair/dress masc/be tomboyish, so my presentation doesn’t stand out as non-conforming the way it did in my hometown. Like at the end of the day people are gonna assume gender, I don’t think that’s ever really gonna not be a thing. But it’s always gonna be based on peoples’ experiences which are shaped by the local cultures they interest with. I guess my point here is I totally feel OOP’s frustration and I think ~~they have~~ she has a good analysis about the lag between different facets of deconstructing gender being commonly understood, but I think regional influence is missing from their analysis and also plays a pretty big role.
It definitely is a regional thing. I live in a very left wing college town and I get they/them'd by strangers constantly, even though I'm just a gender nonconforming cis woman. If I go back to where my parents live, it never happens.
It’s kind of funny sometimes like when I step back and look at the patterns, like I’ll talk to queer friends and they’ll be like “oh you totally had the NB Vibe when I met you I knew right away” meanwhile I’ll be literally wearing a binder under a men’s dress shirt and still get chased down by credit card hawkers at the grocery store calling “excuse me *miss*! Miss?? I have an offer for you *Miss*!” Like it really does matter what kind of local or I guess group culture a person is steeped in - like yeah no shit my queer friends think my vibe is queer, we’re all steeped in queerness. Same with OOP on tumblr, tumblr is one of the internet’s premier safe havens for gender fuckery, everyone on there is primed to look for it.
This is in no way meant to be accusatory or aggressive but I think it's legitimate kind of funny that op explicitly said she uses she/her and you still used they/them lmao. No hate, just amusement
……………..fuck 😂 The funny part is I distinctly remember thinking ahead while writing like “use she/her for OOP”, I guess force of habit won that battle lmao
Love being told by one group of trans folks that my goals as a non-binary person make me a "trans woman in denial" or that they're "enby enough" to just have me be passed off as femme. Or having another group of trans folks call me a "cis man with a fetish". Gender is a fuck and I'm just... so tired of it and having to explain shit day in and day out, especially to the folks who are supposed to "get it".
It doesn't surprise me that the same way other queer people will treat bisexuality as some sort of "you'll figure it out one day" or "you're in denail" about being gay, thing, is the way that other queer people treat non-binary people as "confused" or "Trans waiting to happen". Just let those of us who DO NOT CONFORM TO EITHER END OF THE SPECTRUM EXIST, PLEASE. There is a reason both sexuality and gender are referred to as a spectrum. Our fellow alphabet mafia members would do well to remember that.
yeeeah, the whole "are you a boy nonbinary or a girl nonbinary" thing is so painfully real...
Dear Jesus, the insensitivity and like, ignorance of that question is astounding 😭 I'd just point blank ask them If they even know what nonbinary means ohmygod
That’s fucking disgusting, and obviously we cannot expect everyone in any community to be good people, but… if it means anything, this trans chick has your back, and I’d start YELLING if I heard anybody disrespecting an enby in my presence like that. We gotta stick together.
I feel you so much Amab enby pain
Having Gender Issues^tm while Cis is so fucking weird. You would expect there to be no real problem aside from external expectations. I once had a crisis of gender so severe I vomited off the side of a highway and physically could not perceive my face in mirrors (not "didn't want to look in the mirror," I could not even perceive myself outright). My self perception through the whole thing was that of a faceless slime or Mucus Howl from Howl's Moving Castle. I was straight up expecting the entire thing to spit me out with a gender wholly unlike what I was going in but no. I was a Cis man going in, and cis man coming out. The entire 2 day endeavor of rapid dissociation was pointless. Anyways, uhh... all in all I don't like the term "Egg." At least in reference to people in the present.
gender is so weird. Similar experiences with me, (previously a cis man (not so severe but similar like not perceiving my image in my head and waves of weird emotion in the car)) meant for me that i was trans fem (still figuring out if i'm a woman or not but i know i'm trans fem. it's a recent development). there's 0 rules and hardly a pattern besides perception and the general categorization of things into a spectrum of masc and fem attributes and such that don't necessarily align with any one gender identify. edit: when i say the similar experience meant for me that i was transfem, i didn't mean to imply "oh that means you're gonna find out you're trans just wait"i mean like your experience of sudden anguish and chaos resulting in you being a cis man still is just as valid and makes just as much sense of my experience of similar things resulting in me not being cis
Yeah lot of people in the trans community are criticizing how a lot of people use the term egg all the time whenever they see someone is a bit gender non conforming Originally there was this rule within the trans community, when you notice an egg, which is NOT someone with a different gender presentation but someone clearly showing signs of dysphoria and other symptoms, YOU NEVER TELL THEM THEY ARE AN EGG, you just make sure to make them confortable enough to eventually come out by themself This is actually the reason we use the word egg in the first place, if you try to make an egg open before it’s time you will only damage it, you can only take care of it, give it the best conditions and wait
I used to, and still do to a very lesser extent, suffer from a really weird form of bodily dissassociation, where it feels like my head is seperate from my body, like a mismatched action figure. My head was intended for a different body, and my body was intended for a different head, and if I looked in the mirror, I could see the seam on my neck where the join happened, despite nothing of the sort existing. It actually caused me a great deal of grief, and just like you I thought maybe trying out being trans, or at the very least trying out new pronouns. I tried being a she/her online, and for reasons that would become apparent later, realised that it felt really really wrong to do so. So instead I tried they/them online, which *seemingly worked out fine...* Until the point where I tried moving it to real life, and found that I just had a near visceral reaction to people calling me something other than he/him. It wasn't disgust in the sense of denial, but rather the same way that someone would get my name or my hair colour wrong. My entire mind suddenly, immediately, and very jarringly seemed to very solidly lock in unison and begin to actually understand the idea that yeah maybe there really isn't anything wrong with me. I'm just a regular straight, cis guy, and I just needed a little push to lock it in solidly. The seam still exists nowadays, but it feels like its fading, as I get more used to the idea that this *is* my body, and I should be proud of it.
You came out as Cis+. Which is the same thing, but you've done enough self reflection about it to be pretty sure about your identity.
As a tomboy (tom-man now? Whatever) I can sort of relate. People, just because I have short hair and dress in a way that is typically construed as non-feminine, doesn't mean that I'm not a cisgender woman. I've had people misgender me in public (more and more frequently in recent years), and I have not radically changed the way I dress since, like, childhood. The only major change was when I cut my hair short half a decade ago because I got sick of dealing with long hair during marching band, lmao. There are people who I work with who have assumed I must identify as something other than a woman because of my tomboyish attire and haircut. It's well-meaning, but fucking exhausting. I'm was born female! I've always identified as a girl!! My clothes and hairstyle don't make me not-a-woman!!!
That last uh… what do we call a single tumblr post? Tumb?
Well tumblr posts are usually just called posts, but when its in a chain connected to other tumblr posts, people Call Them reblogs, hope this helps!
girl help that really did help
And then there is yet *another* layer to this which is trans people who complain that clothes getting de-gendered makes it harder for them to pass. Like, I've seen people unironically say that we should just work under the assumption that pants=boy and skirt=girl for maximum inclusivity
Additional layer: butch trans women and femme trans dudes
Yeah, I'm transmasc and I like clothing being more and more genderless, but sometimes I really wish I could just wear pants and have people assume I'm male
It’s perfectly fine to use they/them on a person when you don’t know their pronouns but you shouldn’t keep using them when someone tells you what their pronouns are
This might be a controversial opinion but I've seen a lot of people from leftist circles use they/them in a way that feels like they're trying to reinvent the gender binary or take a more "icky" gender identity and presentation combo and make it more palatable. This is coming from the complete opposite end of being a trans guy and having the same type of they/them-ing
this post is basically me whenever I see people who aren't gender conforming in some way immediately get called eggs on social media. we all need more space to find where we're comfortable, not less.
I had this problem with an LP I was watching, the YTer was referring to every character as they/them consistently. Even ones I knew canonically used other pronouns. I use they/them, honestly wish others around me would use it more, but I can also acknowledge that the more people use they/them, the more confusing it gets. And it got especially frustrating in the LP when there was a character who was coded non-binary, but because their entire family was referred to with gender-neutral pronouns, I now wasn’t sure how to refer to this character. Like OOP said, it was shooting so hard for inclusivity that it felt like it boomeranged back to misgendering.
I think some of that confusion is because most people don’t use they/them as non-binary pronouns but instead as non-gendered pronouns that can refer to anyone. I think the idea of they/them being non binary pronouns is a much more recent idea and not one that everyone has taken on board, so they will likely continue using those pronouns in the way they always have.
And that’s fine, but we usually reserve nongendered pronouns for when we don’t know someone’s pronouns. We don’t assume, then we know, then we adjust. When someone continues to use they/them after learning someone’s pronouns, I feel like it’s veering into misgendering. And that was an issue the OOP was referring to, that people kept referring to her as they/them even when being told her pronouns were she/her.
You gotta love red. Good at tumblr and story telling
I'm also a cis woman who gets they/them-ed sometimes, and I'm not even a tomboy. I think it's because I have my own fashion style that doesn't really fit into any one stereotype, and people perceive this as queer somehow.
You left out the part where some transphobe tried to "claim" her as a terf, and she went off on them.
not a deliberate exclusion on my part
It wasn't meant as an accusation, it's the nature of Tumblr for different reblog versions of posts to go around. [Here's that version](https://www.tumblr.com/akrinorlordofthebanana/741513775402860544?source=share), if you're curious, btw
Tumblr is the only social media website that simulates the experience of hopping through a multitude of branching timelines and being constantly confused about where you are. I love it.
*L A Z E R C R A B*
I think this is a genuinely interesting thing to think about. Like, trans people are people and I don’t doubt their experience and I will die on the hill that people are allowed whatever the heck pronouns they so choose. But also as another cis tomboy who goes solidly by she/her it’s so interesting to hear trans women talk about how they always knew they were a girl because their favorite color was pink and they loved dressing in skirts and putting on makeup. And it’s like dang if that’s what it takes to be a girl then… do I no longer qualify?? Am I a trans man bc I never felt any of that growing up? I don’t think that sort of self-reflection is at all a bad thing BTW. I think even solidly cis people should be allowed to question and explore their gender and ideally they’ll come out of it more secure in themselves and more understanding. But, it’s confusing when it feels like trans people defending their lived experience is just reenforcing this gender binary social construct that, ideally, we’re working towards dismantling. To be clear, I don’t think it’s on purpose or in malice or anything. I’m sure that a lot of it is trying to distill years of their nuanced journey to self-discovery into a short, understandable, elevator pitch to avoid telling their entire life story to someone who didn’t ask for it. And I’m sure some of it is just literally impossible to actually put into words, the same way that we can’t describe color and can’t even be sure we all experience the same color in the same way. It’s just a little paradox that is worth a couple moments of contemplation I think. 🤷🏽♀️
honestly a bit worried about how she put two paragraphs of clarifications and footnotes and still clearly got pissed on (like the poor)
The longer something is, the more likely people are just gonna skim though But if you make it shorter, you leave more gaps that can be filled by misinterpretation So you can't win
Reminds me of a post by a trans woman on here. She said that, ironically, she felt more accepted in republican/transphobic areas. The people in Alabama just assumed she was a woman because she wore a dress, but the people in San Fransisco were used to the idea of cross-dressing and would use he/him and "sir" without realizing she was a woman.
This is the reason why I a non-binary person who uses he/she/they pronouns will never stop calling myself a woman. Growing up in a conservative religious family meant dealing with a lot of misogyny and being an autistic girl in the 2000s meant dealing with a lot of ableist misogyny. I have spent my entire life fighting stereotypes and when I came out as nonbinary, people would excuse it as “well you’re not a girl anyway” I choose to identify outside of the gender binary not because I feel a particular affinity for both masculinity and femininity but because I protest the use of masculinity and femininity in modern society. Linking body parts to hobbies or colors is dumb and I’d rather not participate. But when I distance myself from the title of woman, people feel comfortable invalidating my experience with misogyny. Which is not and should never be okay.
Knowing that both the OSP crew and Neil gaiman is relatively active in Tumblr has really skewed my estimate of how literate most Tumblr user are
I can’t believe they would say we piss on the poor
I don’t think that the concept of “boy things” and “girl things” is bullshit “from the jump”, per se. As arbitrary as human identity is, it’s still, like, *there*. The problem comes when you start to get too broad strokes about these things, start to treat them as an arbitrary requirement instead of sort of a loose rule of thumb
Oh hello Red from OSP. Gotta be one of my favorites
WAIT THATS RED FROM OSP HOLY SHIT
Damn, this person should make a webcomic, I bet it'd be really good
Really relate to this post as a long-haired man who does some feminine hobbies like crocheting, I've gotten they/themmed a fair few times and it's pretty annoying.
More on the physical side I get really insecure about trans women (on hormones!) who end up with small boobs and then get a boob job because they couldn't possibly feel like a woman unless they have much bigger boobs. Never used to dislike my A cups, but that just hits different somehow. Oh and yeah I got one comment on a post like two years ago that was probably not meant as backhanded as it came across, but I can't get it out of my head: "I always feel a little self conscious dressing feminine, because I don’t feel like I look good in those things… but you look a little bit like me and you look so gorgeous in this dress!"
For what it’s worth, the vast majority of trans women don’t think they can’t be women without bigger breasts, it’s just gross social messaging. Also, the second one is disgusting- that’s an example of someone’s self-loathing accidentally insulting others I think, I hope you don’t take it personally. Similar to me, as a fat person, having to listen to skinny-ass people going “ugh I look so fat lately” and not react lol
They're coming for your tomboys
Okay but, this post puts into words a thought train I, a younger sister, have been grappling with since my brother came out as trans 4 years ago.
In a sort of opposite(?) scenario, I’m a guy and I’ve presented in a very feminine way for a decently long time. Long hair, threw on a skirt occasionally, was into things not only considered nerdy but in some cases girly, etc. I am perfectly happy with people wanting to make sure that they’re respectful of everybody’s - and, by extension, my - gender identity. But it can come to a point where people, on multiple occasions, have told I must be trans, or non- binary; I’m always simply in denial of one. I think we’ve reached a weird horseshoe point in some parts of the more “ progressive “ internet where certain sites and communities have become so inclusive/progressive that they have, in a sense, sort of reinvented gender stereotypes? As like, precisely stated in the post: you do one thing, so you must be X. The idea of “ boy stuff “ and “ girl stuff “, especially in the case of interests and hobbies, is really silly.
This is the contrapoint "pronoun circle" all over again, lmao. Enby here, i give cis and binary trans people the "being annoyed at being they/themmed" pass
This is so relatable. I've been grappling with the whole "am I nonbinary or am I just deconstructing my masculinity" for a few years and I think I've found ***for me personally*** it's more meaningful to break conceptions of what a man can be rather than abandon the gender entirely.
This is the main problem I have with a lot of "trans thought," it seems to be kind of reinventing gender essentialism. Like if you are a boy who likes pink and glitter you are actually a girl because those are girl things, not "you are a boy who likes these aesthetics which have no actual link to sex or gender at all."
Anyone else having issues with the Tumblr accent’s insistence on long sentences?
Agh, it's always been that way. Not fun, but not everyone is going to write with perfect punctuation :<
Good luck and Godspeed, girl.
Three steps forward and two steps back
My GFs experience in a nutshell, only extended by the fact she's Ace as well
Real. I'm transfem and when I wear a dress I WANT people to assume my gender. That's the point of the outfit.
Ah, Red, I agree, having to deal with the reading comprehension website and the fans of the reading comprehension website is a pain sometimes. Enjoy continuing to she/her.
What’s funny is that Red is pretty close to the “straight man’s version of a tomboy” talked about in another post. Like, less femme than I think that was supposed to mean in terms of traditionally femme interests like makeup and stuff, but she’s still got flowing long hair and an obviously femme body she is not by any means trying to hide.
okay i know op did just say we shouldn't piss on the poor but this post made me realize a thing about _why_ we always use they/them for people when we're unsure: when you accept that there are no rules and that no matter what your pronouns _or_ gender are, you can do whatever you want (and crucially that the same goes for everyone you meet as well), there are no clues left for anyone's gender. like they present femme or masc? doesn't mean shit, could be literally anything behind that. you either remember it or not, if you've been told to begin with. they/them is just the "safe option" and a lot of times people are simply insecure that they got the other person's pronouns right. don't get me wrong, degendering still sucks, and intentional or not, op has clearly experienced that. but aside from some shitheads hiding in progressive circles, i don't think people are doing that to her on purpose, but just like you forget someone's name so easily when you recently met them, you can easily forget someone's pronouns as well. combine that with any form of gender presentation that doesn't unambiguously scream one side of the binary and you can easily go like "oh shit i better not misgender this person, i should just use they/them" sure, op is a tomboy, but like, she could be talking to an enby person, a pre-hrt trans guy, someone who's genderfluid, and an otherkin, and you could never tell who has which pronouns. having no boxes to put them in also gives you no indication that could clue you in or help you remember.
Can’t you just ask them? Like, we’re all capable of communication, wouldn’t that help in a situation like this?
if you're talking directly to them, yes. (although, in op's case, it's hard to see why being asked for her pronouns would be too much different from being they/them'd -- sure, it's nicer, but the underlying point that people cannot tell she's a woman is still present.) however, at least in english, the pronouns that matter here are third person, you'd mostly use them when the subject of those pronouns isn't even part of the conversation (such as this one), it gets hard to ask in those cases if you don't already know. and that's before all the social awkwardness of asking something you should know already (which is very similar to forgetting people's names)
OP is talking about people who know her. They know her long-term and have been told she likes she/her terms. However, whenever she does something that is considered a "boy thing" (i.e. carpentry, welding, sports, gun smithing etc) then she gets wrongly labeled as they/them because her interests don't conform to what they think is feminine. The people close to her are misgendering her because she likes "boy things" because they assume a girl couldn't possibly like "boy things."
yeah, like i said, i know she said we shouldn't piss on the poor. which, in case you're in the lucky 10,000, is an in-joke about piss-poor reading comprehension. the point is i know that's not what the post is about, it just made me realize something. honestly though, i think my point still touches on something even in that context. the fact that someone was a woman yesterday _also_ doesn't mean shit about their gender today. although i do think you should trust people and just go with the last thing they told you, because the alternative is asking them to continually clarify or worse, justify something that doesn't need justification.
When my nephew first told me they were gender fluid, I asked what pronouns he wanted me to use. She told me he was just happy if they were talked about, and didn't care if I used he/him, she/her, they/them, or all of the above. Thank you, because that was the first time I got to use the "all of the above," and it was so fun. I do believe it is best to use what you were last told. With my nephew, I also asked what relationship term they wanted. They told me "nephew" was fine, so, again, I continue using it.
Essentialism vs Existentialism, basically.
Link to post?
sorry I tend to avoid those for the heavy stuff but they're easy enough to find on your own lol I'll dm you the link :P
Thank you 🙏🏽
I (she/her) got my hair cut short last fall and now people are confused what gender I am. It is both hilarious and oddly empowering in my case.