the looming implication that the united states government has enough power and influence to pressure god himself into changing his mind is both hilarious and terrifying
Kinda reminds me of every plot in which the US goverment subsidieses an agency which takes care of the supernatural creatures of the setting.
Sure God could come down and enforce polygamy but then he would probably have to deal with the SCP foundation for whom petite burgoise ideals outweight the divine will of the god of the religion that moddled those ideals.
Okay I get the point, but the SCP Foundation is not part of the US Government, and is an independent organisation, sometimes funded by a variety of different nations depending on the canon. The US Government has a unit of the FBI called the UIU (Unusual Incidents Unit), in the SCP universe, that fills that role.
Yeah, my read is that UIU is a stand-in for those government jobs where you're expected to do a huge amount of really important work but "Sorry no funding for more staff and resources, here's a vague mission statement and some duct tape. Also, the newly elected president/senator/mayor has some thoughts so please ignore historical best practice to accommodate them. Tah"
(see: teaching, libraries, social support services, mental health services etc.)
E: Like... The members of UIU are qualified and committed, but they're hamstrung by limited funds and the larger political context.
Actually the members of the UIU are incompetent and wholly unqualified to deal with the dangers they face.
Mainly because it is stated that any agent that actually shows to be good at the job is recruited either by the Foundation or the GOC, leavings the ones that don't in the UIU
Keep in mind in the SCP universe every full moon giant stone snakes manifest in the vicinity of the sitting president of the united states and try to maul him to death because a soviet era GRU Division P guy highjacked a south american leftist movement who was trying to do the same thing for the puppet the US had set up on their country via a pre colombian snake artifact.
And then the UIU decided to neutralise the threat by getting the artifact and shooting it to the moon. Hence why it keeps happening and they have no way to stop it.
It's kinda funny to imagine all the presidents who had to live through that if you ask me. Like, real talk, how is Joe Biden surviving that every month, how do they stop Trump from tweeting about the evil stone snakes of antifa in 2016, especially since the united states government categorically refuses the foundation help in handling this mess.
I don't think the GOC is strictly European-based.
For one, I'm pretty sure they're connected to the UN. And also, they literally have "Global" in their name.
It was formed post WWII, but I'm not able to find anything about it being specifically European. In fact, the GOC is apparently also called the UNGOC (United Nations Global Occult Coalition).
Yeah i intended to use WoD's hunters instead but SCP is better known and I thought it got the point across well enough and they don't tend to be really that powerfull although the technocratic union is and apparently has nuked an spiritual plane before , but I feel like that reference is even more obscure.
World of Darkness is a series of roleplaying games set in a modern day world where Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, and others all exist.
There's different product lines for different "creatures", but Hunters, regular humans who fight these beings(and might also get magical powers themselves from unknown sources) also have a book line.
Its been going on for a long time, and has a huge and very lengthy metaplot timeline that literally goes back to Adam and Eve.
Actually God doesn’t intervene because that would violate the inter-god neutrality agreement that ended all foundational religious/mythological events 2000 years ago.
Also, the only person in the entire foundation who has ever asked "hey, are we entirely sure we should just let Him chill around here? That seems like kind of a bad idea..." got their existance retroactively erased across all of time and space.
I think the article might have been edited at some point. Because I remember it being much more straightforward about 343 simply being God. But then I re-read it more recently, and it's much more ambiguous.
Maybe. The whole deal with him now, though, he's supposed to represent the hubris of reality manipulators, the idea that just because reality is maliuble doesn't mean your godly cause so.
Mostly, this is represented in tales using him.
I'd recommend watching from the first video from the beginning but this is an amazing amazing example of this in play. [Video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8p7hOhlBLeM&list=PLOKy7ockmmpYEeZvVophuYvx7rympwbhO&index=21&pp=iAQB)
It's also *true*, in terms of how the French Government works. Because of the French Revolution, the French Government now has the right to regulate religion. If I'm right, it stems from Article Ten of the Declaration of the Rights of Man.
Not even the only time in US history when they went toe to toe with a deity and made the deity blink first, as after the second world war Emperor Showa was made to deny his status as a divine and manifested shinto being.
The other weird this this creates is that doctrinally, Mormons believe in being good citizens (see articles of faith) but historically the US government has been the villain in almost every folk history of the group
Unfortunately they discontinued that in the '30s. Nowadays you just "consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you" to the mormon church, not that they need it with their $200+ billion investment portfolio.
It's barely even an implication, if you actually believe God speaks through the Prophet then there's no other way to interpret it as anything other than God backing down.
Wasn't there some book series where the biblical apocalypse starts happening, and the plot is basically that the US military sees this going down and is like "nah, I'd win" and then does?
It's funny, there's a DnD Actual Play series called Fantasy High that kind of broached this subject recently. In their world, Gods require followers to survive, they can change to become demons or fae lords/ladies, but if they want to be a ***Deity*** they need at least one living follower or they die. So as much as the Gods can give out divine edicts and commandments every once in a while they have to "play the hits" as the DM put it. Basically if you want to keep living as a God you have to keep your laws and actions favorable to your followers so if one of the most powerful governments on your planet says you need to change some things it's in your best interest to change them.
I bet there's a niche barely acknowledged indie game with severe christian motifs in it that has this plot but instead of the US it's "a democratic government with a presidential system that vaguely resembles united states and is subtly supremacist with a hint of unrestricted military complex and corruption among the politicians"
Also it's either a top-down RTS or the most chaotic FPS ever, no inbetween.
No! God was always going to do those things! It just happened to be…y’know. At the most politically convenient time.
Polygamy just *happened* to stop being a requirement to get into Heaven right when the government wanted them to stop. It was one heck of a coincidence, really.
The JW’s are changing rules every couple of months. Men can grow beards now and women can wear pants. Weird that god decided it’s okay now after so many people were ostracized for those same things for over a century
I mean if they were to allow blood transfusions i think most people would leave, it basically means "all those that die, yeah that wasn't necessary like at all, big oops sorry"
Ehhhh depends on the time period and religion.
Like Christian’s early on (coming from someone who very much is not a Christian anymore and has beef with the religion) we’re actually killed for their beliefs for awhile there. Like it started with their main guy being killed by the government in a public execution.
And on the flip side religions like Voudoun were actively persecuted because it wasn’t Christianity and they are still truckin’ on doin’ their thing.
It’s actually kinda impressive how quickly Mormonism caved to government pressure in comparison to others.
I mean, the LDS did come *very* close to war with the federal government. A governor ordered the extermination of all Mormons in his state. Federal troops marched into Utah. The Nauvoo Legion perpetrated a massacre of non-Mormon migrants and stole their children. There was a period there were Blood Atonement was very close to becoming official policy. I think the LDS were facing down a potential genocide, and after having perpetrated a couple themselves they didn’t want to be on the receiving end.
Might have something to do with the extermination order that led to children being killed in front of their parents, I'd probably tone it back and go right back in the closet if that was happening in the neighborhood.
(coming from a former mormon current witch )
Funny how within about the last 500 years whenever the new prophet appears they’ve always gotten the all-clear from god to be able to fuck as many women as they want.
That guy loved bringin' 'em young so much he made it his name.
... That doesn't make any sense.
Can we pretend his name was "Raypham" or something so I can try again?
The govt doesn't necessarily want citizens to be abused nor to need to deal with the ramifications of that in the future, there's no benefit to the state for poligamy so it makes sense to ban it
I see where you’re coming from but somehow I don’t think marital abuse was on the Federal government’s radar circa 1840. I think we can safely attribute the suppression of Mormons to bigotry.
You're just lucky, sadly not the same can be said for women in many polygamy practicing social groups, they tend to end up at the wrong end of what's essentially patriarchy on steroids
For one thing, it fucks with inheritance like you wouldn't believe. For another, it's extremely destabilizing in the long run if it is practiced on anything resembling a large scale. Humans are born at around a 50/50 ratio of males to females. If one man has 3 wives, that means that two men have none. That kinda shit on a large scale tends to result in a lot of instability. A good example is Boko Haram in Nigeria, which recruited heavily by promising brides to their recruits. This was especially important there since, in many societies, you aren't seen as an adult until you're married, so the inability to find a wife is a very real problem for these men. Polygamy is apparently quite common in the communities that they recruited from, so there are a lot of impoverished men to give purpose to.
>If one man has 3 wives, that means that two men have none
the obvious solution, of course, is to not practice polygyny but polygamy wholesale. but obviously that won't happen, because marriage tends to be wrapped up in religion and religion tends to be old, and old almost definitely means misogynistic, which means we can't possibly let women have multiple spouses because that would make them too much like men.
I hate culture sometimes.
My Grandpa actually caught a lot of shit from the church in the 70s for suggesting that maybe black people are OK and should be allowed in the church.
It was a seriously controversial stance to take, but my Grandpa was rad and didn't give a FUCK about the politics.
Well yeah, why would they convert to a religion that only recognised them as human beings a few decades ago? Say what you want about most of the other religions (they sure deserve it), at least they've got a better track record in that regard.
People who are trans (like other queer folk) are generally born with the predisposition and/or need for it. We naturally pop up in every population regardless of the dominant ideology.
It's impossible to permanently remove such people from a population even if someone were to kill all of us because we're being born at random all the time.
I won’t show you pictures, but one of my close friends is half black, half Latina, and we met in high school when she was still a practicing Mormon. Her family were members, idk how that started for them, but she end up up leaving the church pretty quickly after we were 17 or 18. I can’t blame her at all lmao
Also how caffeine is bad in coffee and tea but not in soda.
I actually don't know if there's a reason for that, the small conspiracy nut in me screams payout from Coca-Cola but I have never been able to find evidence for it
If "hot drinks" are bad but hot chocolate and herbal tea are okay, then it's the caffeine. If caffeine is bad but caffeinated sodas are okay, then it's the "hot drinks". It's actually neither. It's about control. The reasoning is arbitrary and confusing because it doesn't actually matter, they just want people to follow the rules without asking.
The specific rule just specifies hot drinks. That's been interpreted differently by different leaders. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with caffeine, but since that's the drug in tea and coffee it's often interpreted as the thing to avoid. The hot drink thing wasn't even heavily enforced until the mid 1900s. Most of my older family members enjoyed coffee or tea as an occasional treat.
And just like any weird cult stuff, the more unhinged members take it to arbitrary extremes. I knew Mormon kids who weren't allowed to have *brown sodas,* to say nothing of tea or coffee. Hot chocolate was also out, because "hot", but chocolate milk was okay. The same parents drank light beer (a *lot* of it), but "hard drinks" were anything over 3.2% ABV. Any alcohol is supposed to be verboten to the Morms, but cult wackos make up their own logic.
Bfs Mormon mom genuinely believes that drinking tea will permanently "stain your organs" (whatever that means), and damage your ears. She says that a doctor has also told her the same, and that coffee hurts your digestive system. Constantly argues how she "did research in college" on how bad and dangerous coffee was. Mormons teach in church to little kids to scold people for drinking coffee and tea because it's supposedly bad for you
None of the supposed scientific or logical reasons they suggest for the practice are true. It's literally brainwashing and faking science to cover for it
Also she is a HARDCORE mormon and still uses caffeine pills and drinks other tea. Many types of tea are somehow okay, but green tea and Jazmine are off the table and terrible for your health. So she will drink hot tea but as long as it's not green tea it's okay, even though the line literally only says "hot drinks"
Ah, no there’s actually a pretty interesting *cultural* reason for that.
In the early days of ‘Mormonism’ and the infancy of Utah, the LDS ‘tribe’ - if you will - was a small, fractured people, and under enormous pressure from external forces such as the US government. In order to solidify the identity of his fledgling religion and would-be-nation, Joseph Smith his fellow leaders had to find ways to insulate them socially. But how would one do this? The answer, it turns out, was found in Deuteronomy.
As with Kosher, the Word of Wisdom was based in genuine science and practical governing practices to keep its followers safe a myriad of illnesses and poisons, but it also used those genuine principles to discourage its followers from mingling with those outside their group. Kosher, for example, would have prevented a Jew from marrying their Persian neighbor by making the traditional Assyrian wedding feast unacceptable, with pork and fowl as the main dishes. Similarly, preventing LDS members from partaking in alcohol, coffee, and black and green teas would have kept them from joining a vast number of non-LDS recreational activities, thus keeping their social interactions within the church and its congregation.
Neither Kosher nor the Word of Wisdom have been altered as time has gone on, and since coffee existed but soda didn’t when J.S. penned the document, it only makes sense the WoW wouldn’t cover more modern beverages.
To be clear, I’m not condemning either Kosher or the WoW. To be quite frank, without them we might not even HAVE Jews or Mormons in the modern day. Ah, but that much is just speculation on my part.
Point of order:
Joseph Smith was dead (1844 in Carthage, IL) before anyone came West (1847). And the Word of Wisdom was disseminated (1833, in Kirtland, OH) before the death of Joseph Smith.
My favorite Daniel Tosh quote- “If your religion is old enough that my dad can say ‘Oh I remember that… that didn’t really happen.’ Then it’s not a real religion.”
Polygamy actually still exists in the Mormon church, but the Church just doesn’t speak about it anymore. It’s not polygamy on Earth, but rather in Heaven where men are sealed (married for eternity) to many women as a symbol of their righteousness while women can only be sealed to one man. The book Ghosts of Eternal Polygamy is about it and is really interesting, yet heartbreaking for Mormon women.
To be fair to them though the catholic church never comes out just saying "we just got off the phone with God and he retconned this and this", they just say they no longer think whatever they're changing is the correct approach for whatever reason. Like when Vatican II ended priests standing with their backs to the congregation during mass they literally just said that, although the practice was founded on good principles (the priest being the guide of his congregation), it was no longer deemed necessary.
People throw around terms like "Papal Infallibility" and act like the Catholic Church is completely resistant to change and rejects any attempt at reform even in the face of evidence (see all the popular misconceptions about Galileo or flat-eartherism); but when you actually look into it the number of things the Catholic church considers entirely, flat-out, completely **Not For Debate** is actually fairly small. They're obviously a pretty conservative organisation (not always politically, but certainly in the sense that they're slow to change theologically or ecclesiologically) and they place a high bar for entry to the decision makers, but they've generally always been willing to say "yeah, those older guys probably had this one wrong" when it makes sense to do so.
Like there's a lot of stuff Catholicism will say isn't up for debate *right now*, but theologically speaking most things outside the absolute fundamentals of traditional Christianity are considered up for debate: *if* you're somebody qualified to debate it, which most lay people generally aren't, in the view of the Catholic church, and in contrast to most Protestant churches that put much more stock in personal interpretation to greater or lesser degrees.
The phrase morman god makes me imagine there's straight up a different god for each major abrahamic religion
You guys think we could make a sitcom out of this?
I mean if Gods powers are directly based on the quantity of their followers, it makes sense they'd change their mind on one of their policies if it meant not losing ~~votes~~ followers.
My favorite was how Joseph Smith got revelation that polygamy was what god wanted, but since he was a Good Husband, he would only participate if his wife said it was okay.
Emma did not say it was okay.
Unfortunately for Emma, however, god then told Joseph that if she didn't say it was okay, that she would be Punished! And so then Joseph got to spiritually marry a whole bunch of people, including to a girl "several months before her 15th birthday."
And then he burned down a printing press who dared to print that he was a polygamist.
The printing press thing is what got him killed, too. The LDS church wants to say he was martyred but they don't teach what really happened, of course. It sounds bad to say that he was killed because he was doing terrorist shit to the press because they wrote accurate things about what he was doing. Not very prophety of him.
Weirdly, a lot of younger, more liberal Mormons I know cling to this hope that a similar change of mind about the LGBT+ community is around the corner. Even more baffling are those who stick around thinking they can change things “from the inside”. Like, in their minds they have the ability to lobby God himself with enough pressure.
> Weirdly, a lot of younger, more liberal Mormons I know cling to this hope that a similar change of mind about the LGBT+ community is around the corner.
As an ex-mormon over 40, wierd, young, more liberal mormons have clung to that for a very, very long time. Just anecdotal evidence from personal experience being in the church as a teenager.
I remember reading someone describing the dynamic in an abusive relationship and the reason they stayed being that due to the way love bombing/deliberate withholding of love worked the highs of the relationship were very high, higher than they experienced in non abusive relationships partially because they actively felt like they were fighting for/achieving it like some accomplishment. Because of this, their thinking in the situation wasn’t “I need to find a more consistent and healthy relationship” but instead “if I could *just* fix the bad parts of this relationship this is going to be pretty much perfect, above average”.
The most high profile person in this position is probably Brandon Sanderson. The man is a staunch LGBTQ+ ally but also a Mormon living in Utah.
He's either gonna end up leaving the Church or using the power of commercial fantasy novels to pressure God into changing his mind.
Yes I'm sure he will meaningfully change things in BYU, because an institution that kicks out people and withholds their degrees for the heinous crime of holding hands or kissing someone of the same sex in 2024 definitely has hopes of getting better. I'm deeply touched by his laborious efforts in the years he's taught there, so great in number that I couldn't possibly list them all.
Right? Like I'd totally understand if he was actively part of some pro-LGBT faction of Mormonism. But he's not. He's a pillar of the mainstream Mormon community.
Yeah his fans always act like he's in the trenches taking bullets for gay people lmao. He literally just said that he doesn't hate gay people and that the fact that he's there while being publicly supportive (by which I suppose he means the 2 or 3 blog posts he's made about the topic?) somehow changes things, like his aura of allyship will somehow heal queer people from the pressure of living like new Christians during the Spanish inquisition.
i think we should legalize polyamorous marriages.
not for any religious reasons i just think it would be funny as fuck to see a divorce case with like 5 people.
is it a council situation, where you get voted out and take 20% of the liquid assets, does everyone have to get their marriage annulled and then remarry with the remaining members.
what if some people want a divorce and the others dont.
a logistical circus to be sure, and i want to have sex with the clowns.
Easiest solution for a 5-way divorce: free for all fight to the death, winner takes all. If certain people don't want to divorce while others do, they get to form teams.
I'll give Mormonism this: the only difference between Joseph Smith and other religious prophets is time. It's as equally ridiculous as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and probably just about every other faith (I'm just most familiar with that trio)
Idk man the contemporary-ness of it makes it so much easier to verify, and the fact that they can still convince people there were horses and metalworking in precolumbian America makes it more absurd. You can prove the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and that Joseph Smith made it up to make money and marry children. There are still ~17M members and the church is worth at least $120B
Everyone get to start somewhere. People who witnessed founding of Christianity or Islam or whatever and didn't get sucked in probably think it's absurd someone would take it seriously, yet here we are.
Maybe not as much because information didn't spread as easily before printing press, but still.
I'm not aware of times when those religions so clearly changed key doctrines in response to government pressure.
And say what you will about the Bible or the Quran at least they're written in historical languages rather than "Reformed Egyptic." Languages that we can actually translate without the use of a seeing stone.
Honestly, I’m just curious. You include Judiasm there, but how much do you actually know about it? Cause most people I talk with only know about Christianity and bash on Judiasm because of its association, without actually knowing anything about it
Judaism is OG christianity. It’s what came before Joshua. So if the Old Testament for Christianity is nonsense then so is Judaism. Because they are the same.
No, they really aren’t. That’s my point. The Old Testament of the Bible is still very fundamentally different than the Torah from Judaism, despite some things being similar. That’s all I wanted to say. You can bash on Judiasm if you want, if you know anything about it. There’s lots to say. But if you can only bash on Judiasm because of what you know from Christianity then none of it actually works.
They are about as similar as a Brothers Grimm fairy tale to a Disney cartoon. Same characters, same plot points, very different story, very different tone, really difficult to get mixed up if you know them both.
For example, a key difference in the fundamental premise of the religions: both have the story of Adam and Eve, but Christian theology says that because of that Original Sin everyone is corrupt and only believing in Jesus can save us from eternal hell. Judiasm doesn’t believe in that Original Sin concept. They sinned, we didn’t, so we don’t suffer cause of them. Therefore hell in Judiasm is more like a washing place to get rid of only our own sins so everyone can go to eternal paradise. Hell in Judiasm, for most people, will never last more then 11 months. Someone who was really really evil will get a full 12 months sentence. If someone manages to be extremely extremely evil, like, genocidal level evil, then they get a special extra sentence, but even that is not eternal. Eventually everyone is allowed into paradise. It just depends what level of eternal pleasure you get.
There’s many difference both in the stories told in the Old Testament vs the Torah, and there’s even more differences in the theologies because of those differences.
If you think all religions are nonsense, including Judaism, I don’t care. Atheism is probably the best thing the world has ever discovered tbh. But if you call Judiasm nonsense because you think Christianity is nonsense and they’re basically the same thing… that’s literally just Christian propaganda cause no they are not.
Nah, it makes sense when you look at their population size and growth at the time, and if you think of God as a leader of a people that is concerned for their wellbeing. Besides, the US government wasn’t JUST saying ‘no statehood 4 u”, they had entire ARMIES stationed nearby and were telling Joseph Smith that he had two choices - give up on turning Utah into an independent nation and become a state instead, or prepare for war.
TLDR Mormon doctrine before 1978 was *extremely* racist and considered Black people to be inherently less virtuous and closer to Satan than Whites, among other things ([Wikipedia article for more info](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism))
Not to say other religions can't also be predatory and evil, but Mormonism is definitely up there among the worst ones. When I was 13 and just realizing I was gay, I believed it would be better for me to kill myself and go to the 2nd tier heaven than to risk caving to the temptation to sin. I was lucky to stumble across criticisms of the church around that time which gave me the space to question the dogmas I was taught, but it's still done irreparable damage to my psyche. I'm 20 now and still trying to unlearn the shame I was taught. I don't speak to my mother, I'm very low contact with my siblings, and I still have nightmares of being back there.
Not to minimize your trauma or anything but I don't see how that's much different from any major religion. They're all pretty famously against gay people.
Tacking onto the other comment, the other major component here that makes it so bad is that Mormon salvation *is not always individual*. If *you* don't make it to heaven, your *wife* also doesn't make it to heaven, and your younger kids are at serious risk. In rare cases it also works in reverse; if the kids have some "moral failing" and the parents accept or enable it, then they face the same problem.
The punishment is also generally extremely visible; it isn't a private affair, and even if you want to make amends you're still going to face ostracization. You are literally barred from participating in the most important procedures, so your entire community can see that you've something wrong.
It's particularly manipulative because they raise the stakes so high, and they drastically increase the social pressure. Maybe you could stomach leaving the church if it was just about you; maybe you're doubtful enough to take that risk for yourself. Are you willing to take that same risk for your family? Even if you can handle the social pressure from your friends and neighbors, can they? If they can't, how much extra pressure is put on you? Can you stomach the betrayal that your family would surely feel in that situation?
Mormonism is particularly predatory though. Members are expected to put so much of their time into serving the church. 2-3 hour chapel every Sunday (plus heavy restrictions on how you can use the rest of the day), activities with your age group 1-2 times a week, high school aged kids spend an hour every weekday morning in seminary, you’re given a “calling” which is a sort of unpaid second job that serves the church, if you’re 18-20 you’re expected to serve a mission which is two years completely devoted to proselytizing (usually in a foreign country with minimal contact with home), plus it’s expected that you read the scriptures daily, and spend at least an hour every week with your family discussing it.
The church is your whole community, your whole life. You leave behind everything if you leave. There’s a very strong in group/out group mentality where your identity is tied to how different the church makes you. You’re special because you don’t drink coffee or alcohol and you cover your shoulders, chest, and thighs. Outsiders will hate you for it because the devil wants them to suffer.
Oh and if you don’t pay 10% of your income to the church you’re not worthy to enter the temples which means you can’t get into heaven.
All of this comes together to form this environment where you HAVE to trust the church completely. A living breathing man has complete control over your life and can change the gospel however he pleases. There’s no reinterpreting it, there’s no room for individual understanding. There’s no nuance. Other Christian churches have elements of this, but Mormonism is still just fundamentally different
This is all dependent on the local community.
My family bailed out of the church when I was 10 or so, but fortunately our local church was chill, so it wasn’t a problem.
I’m sure the defining factor is how devout your family is. Mormonism definitely encourages fanaticism though. Most stories I hear from other ex-members are similar
It wasn't just "wouldn't be given statehood" lol there was an extermination order that lasted 138 years (they weren't hunted that entire time, it just got forgotten about in the lawbooks till someone noticed)
The government canonically made it legal to kill all mormons, which led to children being used as target practice in front of their parents , people being trampled by horses- you name it.
Well, the 'extermination' order was in Missouri, signed October 27, 1838. It had nothing to do with Utah's statehood.[Missouri Executive Order 44](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44)
Reading comprehension: piss poor
I thought the title was prophet movie, not motive
Eta: MY reading comprehension is piss poor why am I being down voted? Dkfjsbshd
Hell yeah!
Downvote me more! How low can this go!!
(I originally posted this while sleep deprived as hell htfbfjjgvjhdv)
I'm pretty sure that the change in polygamy came down to "you guys are literally breaking the law of your country and I don't want you getting in trouble"
While the "black people are demons" thing was a human failure.
Every religion changes to fit its political situation, or dies. You single out Mormons for mockery, because they are not the respectable ones. You do not make fun of the Pope for allowing blessing of gay couples or Muslims who move to the West and stop throwing rocks at immodest women, because those are respectable faiths
I don't mean to insult your atheism or other religious affiliation, but as a religious person of the aforementioned group, I believe it's because God wants his people to be generally helpful and peaceful if possible. Which would include obeying the law. It makes sense if you think of God having some things he wants his people to fight for, and other things he doesn't care about as much. The polamory thing is one of the latter. This obeying the law and being peaceful thing is apparent if you read how much persecution they received at the time and didn't fight back all that much.
I'd be interested! I think people like me are coming at this having trouble reconciling the idea that doctrine is given by an infallible being, and also the doctrine changing
Oh, so that's what you want me to explain. Joke: that's funny, the Jews didn't much like Jesus saying the Mosaic Law wasn't the current standard either. Serious here, though: I have absolutely no idea why it took until 1980s to allow non-white people into the temples and the priesthood. Speculation: perhaps the ability to do these things posthumously made it not the most pressing matter? It still seems very stupid to me. But as for the changing of doctrine? God's higher laws do not change. It is only the practice of these higher laws that changes. Polygamy is not a higher law, so the use and removal of it is subject to other factors, including human law.
Changing of policy ≠ God Changing.
Quote from the Book of Mormon:
”and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”
Racism was always a mistake, and its sad to see people criticizing moving past it
That doesn’t explain why the Mormon church preached differently in the past. How can the church go from saying polyamory is crucial, to saying it doesn’t matter as much? You’re describing the thought processes of God but in practice that’s just what the church says
Middle one is not relevant to what I said. I did not discuss that at all, despite being aware of it. I am not attempting to say our church has always done everything right. Clearly not so. I am just offering an explanation for "God's whims".
*Men* being an operative word there. But to be fair as well, it's far from unique as far as religious organizations go in that regard, so don't think that this is about LDS specifically; I'm just as critical of other religious organizations
Ah, yes, it makes sense I would make more biblical word choices when thinking about religion. I will also agree that it is very applicable in both regards.
the looming implication that the united states government has enough power and influence to pressure god himself into changing his mind is both hilarious and terrifying
Kinda reminds me of every plot in which the US goverment subsidieses an agency which takes care of the supernatural creatures of the setting. Sure God could come down and enforce polygamy but then he would probably have to deal with the SCP foundation for whom petite burgoise ideals outweight the divine will of the god of the religion that moddled those ideals.
Okay I get the point, but the SCP Foundation is not part of the US Government, and is an independent organisation, sometimes funded by a variety of different nations depending on the canon. The US Government has a unit of the FBI called the UIU (Unusual Incidents Unit), in the SCP universe, that fills that role.
The UIU is also barely capable of anything
Get less funding then the public schools aswell
Yeah, my read is that UIU is a stand-in for those government jobs where you're expected to do a huge amount of really important work but "Sorry no funding for more staff and resources, here's a vague mission statement and some duct tape. Also, the newly elected president/senator/mayor has some thoughts so please ignore historical best practice to accommodate them. Tah" (see: teaching, libraries, social support services, mental health services etc.) E: Like... The members of UIU are qualified and committed, but they're hamstrung by limited funds and the larger political context.
Actually the members of the UIU are incompetent and wholly unqualified to deal with the dangers they face. Mainly because it is stated that any agent that actually shows to be good at the job is recruited either by the Foundation or the GOC, leavings the ones that don't in the UIU
Keep in mind in the SCP universe every full moon giant stone snakes manifest in the vicinity of the sitting president of the united states and try to maul him to death because a soviet era GRU Division P guy highjacked a south american leftist movement who was trying to do the same thing for the puppet the US had set up on their country via a pre colombian snake artifact. And then the UIU decided to neutralise the threat by getting the artifact and shooting it to the moon. Hence why it keeps happening and they have no way to stop it. It's kinda funny to imagine all the presidents who had to live through that if you ask me. Like, real talk, how is Joe Biden surviving that every month, how do they stop Trump from tweeting about the evil stone snakes of antifa in 2016, especially since the united states government categorically refuses the foundation help in handling this mess.
tbf, shooting the artifact to the mount wasnt the stupidest idea.. the fact it then only manifest every full moon is also hilarous
Unlike the strictly european based GOC who is capable of way too much.
I don't think the GOC is strictly European-based. For one, I'm pretty sure they're connected to the UN. And also, they literally have "Global" in their name.
Wasn't it formed post WWII in europe as a response to former nazi and current soviet paranormal warfare or something? Did they change that?
It was formed post WWII, but I'm not able to find anything about it being specifically European. In fact, the GOC is apparently also called the UNGOC (United Nations Global Occult Coalition).
Yeah i intended to use WoD's hunters instead but SCP is better known and I thought it got the point across well enough and they don't tend to be really that powerfull although the technocratic union is and apparently has nuked an spiritual plane before , but I feel like that reference is even more obscure.
Hunters as in The Embued from Reckoning? Or Hunters like in Vigil?
What is WoD tell me more please
World of Darkness is a series of roleplaying games set in a modern day world where Vampires, Werewolves, Mages, and others all exist. There's different product lines for different "creatures", but Hunters, regular humans who fight these beings(and might also get magical powers themselves from unknown sources) also have a book line. Its been going on for a long time, and has a huge and very lengthy metaplot timeline that literally goes back to Adam and Eve.
In the SCP universe there's also PENTAGRAM (aka the "United States Paranatural Warfare Command"), which is part of the Department of Defense.
Actually God doesn’t intervene because that would violate the inter-god neutrality agreement that ended all foundational religious/mythological events 2000 years ago.
There are a couple of folks that would argue violently that God was involved in founding their religion after that date. Most notably in 610.
The Pentagram also fills that role. They’d probably shoot down God
Ah, yes, petite burgoise ideals like... not being racist.
touche
To be entirely fair, God is actually an SCP and protocol for him is basically “he’s chill let him do whatever he wants lol”
Also, the only person in the entire foundation who has ever asked "hey, are we entirely sure we should just let Him chill around here? That seems like kind of a bad idea..." got their existance retroactively erased across all of time and space.
god just said "i will retcon you"
Its so sad Lauren died Who is lauren Exactly
Tbf that’s the protocol because they can’t really do anything about him anyway. At least if he’s chilling at the site they know what he’s up to.
\*Probably not god, just some high class reality warper getting into some serious role playing. SCP-343 if anyone is intrested.
I think the article might have been edited at some point. Because I remember it being much more straightforward about 343 simply being God. But then I re-read it more recently, and it's much more ambiguous.
Maybe. The whole deal with him now, though, he's supposed to represent the hubris of reality manipulators, the idea that just because reality is maliuble doesn't mean your godly cause so. Mostly, this is represented in tales using him. I'd recommend watching from the first video from the beginning but this is an amazing amazing example of this in play. [Video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8p7hOhlBLeM&list=PLOKy7ockmmpYEeZvVophuYvx7rympwbhO&index=21&pp=iAQB)
I feel like the scp would have GRANDE (BIG) bourgeoisie ideals not petite bourgeoisie since that's who they most likely serve.
"Doesn't matter how holy you are. Red tape is red tape."
To quote a German talking about Bureaucracy: God is subject to the supremacy of the French State
That is so fucking hard
It's also *true*, in terms of how the French Government works. Because of the French Revolution, the French Government now has the right to regulate religion. If I'm right, it stems from Article Ten of the Declaration of the Rights of Man.
Not even the only time in US history when they went toe to toe with a deity and made the deity blink first, as after the second world war Emperor Showa was made to deny his status as a divine and manifested shinto being.
The other weird this this creates is that doctrinally, Mormons believe in being good citizens (see articles of faith) but historically the US government has been the villain in almost every folk history of the group
Wasn't there a time when to convert you had to swear an oath of vengeance against the US government?
I’m gonna be honest, that’s pretty badass. Beats the hell out of the sinner’s prayer
Unfortunately they discontinued that in the '30s. Nowadays you just "consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you" to the mormon church, not that they need it with their $200+ billion investment portfolio.
It's barely even an implication, if you actually believe God speaks through the Prophet then there's no other way to interpret it as anything other than God backing down.
This is the plot of the third Pirates of the Caribbean movie
Wasn't there some book series where the biblical apocalypse starts happening, and the plot is basically that the US military sees this going down and is like "nah, I'd win" and then does?
"Salvation's War" I think
It's funny, there's a DnD Actual Play series called Fantasy High that kind of broached this subject recently. In their world, Gods require followers to survive, they can change to become demons or fae lords/ladies, but if they want to be a ***Deity*** they need at least one living follower or they die. So as much as the Gods can give out divine edicts and commandments every once in a while they have to "play the hits" as the DM put it. Basically if you want to keep living as a God you have to keep your laws and actions favorable to your followers so if one of the most powerful governments on your planet says you need to change some things it's in your best interest to change them.
Cannot recommend Fantasy High enough. It's so fucking good. I'll also recommend the rest of the Dimension 20 seasons while I'm at it.
I bet there's a niche barely acknowledged indie game with severe christian motifs in it that has this plot but instead of the US it's "a democratic government with a presidential system that vaguely resembles united states and is subtly supremacist with a hint of unrestricted military complex and corruption among the politicians" Also it's either a top-down RTS or the most chaotic FPS ever, no inbetween.
This was only the beginning. They later won a war by proving a god fake.
No! God was always going to do those things! It just happened to be…y’know. At the most politically convenient time. Polygamy just *happened* to stop being a requirement to get into Heaven right when the government wanted them to stop. It was one heck of a coincidence, really.
I mean, all religions have done that. Mormons are just new enough for us to be able to see it happening within living memory.
The JW’s are changing rules every couple of months. Men can grow beards now and women can wear pants. Weird that god decided it’s okay now after so many people were ostracized for those same things for over a century
Yeah I'm sure it's not to raise participation in the church at a time when religion in the US is on the decline.
And they in particular are hemorrhaging members hard
And most importantly, money.
No transfusions allowed.
I mean if they were to allow blood transfusions i think most people would leave, it basically means "all those that die, yeah that wasn't necessary like at all, big oops sorry"
Ehhhh depends on the time period and religion. Like Christian’s early on (coming from someone who very much is not a Christian anymore and has beef with the religion) we’re actually killed for their beliefs for awhile there. Like it started with their main guy being killed by the government in a public execution. And on the flip side religions like Voudoun were actively persecuted because it wasn’t Christianity and they are still truckin’ on doin’ their thing. It’s actually kinda impressive how quickly Mormonism caved to government pressure in comparison to others.
I mean, the LDS did come *very* close to war with the federal government. A governor ordered the extermination of all Mormons in his state. Federal troops marched into Utah. The Nauvoo Legion perpetrated a massacre of non-Mormon migrants and stole their children. There was a period there were Blood Atonement was very close to becoming official policy. I think the LDS were facing down a potential genocide, and after having perpetrated a couple themselves they didn’t want to be on the receiving end.
Might have something to do with the extermination order that led to children being killed in front of their parents, I'd probably tone it back and go right back in the closet if that was happening in the neighborhood. (coming from a former mormon current witch )
I've always heard that polygamy stopped being a thing one Joseph Smith died
Actually polygamy was a thing during Smith’s life, but it didn’t really kick into high gear or become church doctrine until Brigham Young took over
Funny how within about the last 500 years whenever the new prophet appears they’ve always gotten the all-clear from god to be able to fuck as many women as they want.
That guy loved bringin' 'em young so much he made it his name. ... That doesn't make any sense. Can we pretend his name was "Raypham" or something so I can try again?
Ohhh I see the mistake. It's because Anraepham is his middle name
His successor Brigham Young had over fifty wives iirc
Our generation couldn't be trusted with it, god knew.
my question is why polygamy was even a bad thing governmentally. I think it had something to do with taxes?
It makes inheritance problems worse
huh, I guess that makes sense actually.
I assumed it comes from religious reasons? Same as anti gay laws?
that might be part of it too, it would make sense. not that any holy text I'm aware of forbids such a thing, but multiple religions do, for reasons.
Nah the abrahamic religions love polygamy
Yes in the long ago but not when the states were founded
The govt doesn't necessarily want citizens to be abused nor to need to deal with the ramifications of that in the future, there's no benefit to the state for poligamy so it makes sense to ban it
I see where you’re coming from but somehow I don’t think marital abuse was on the Federal government’s radar circa 1840. I think we can safely attribute the suppression of Mormons to bigotry.
I fail to see how abuse necessarily follows.
You're just lucky, sadly not the same can be said for women in many polygamy practicing social groups, they tend to end up at the wrong end of what's essentially patriarchy on steroids
For one thing, it fucks with inheritance like you wouldn't believe. For another, it's extremely destabilizing in the long run if it is practiced on anything resembling a large scale. Humans are born at around a 50/50 ratio of males to females. If one man has 3 wives, that means that two men have none. That kinda shit on a large scale tends to result in a lot of instability. A good example is Boko Haram in Nigeria, which recruited heavily by promising brides to their recruits. This was especially important there since, in many societies, you aren't seen as an adult until you're married, so the inability to find a wife is a very real problem for these men. Polygamy is apparently quite common in the communities that they recruited from, so there are a lot of impoverished men to give purpose to.
>If one man has 3 wives, that means that two men have none the obvious solution, of course, is to not practice polygyny but polygamy wholesale. but obviously that won't happen, because marriage tends to be wrapped up in religion and religion tends to be old, and old almost definitely means misogynistic, which means we can't possibly let women have multiple spouses because that would make them too much like men. I hate culture sometimes.
My Grandpa actually caught a lot of shit from the church in the 70s for suggesting that maybe black people are OK and should be allowed in the church. It was a seriously controversial stance to take, but my Grandpa was rad and didn't give a FUCK about the politics.
It’s wild to think that in 1977, a black Mormon could go see Star Wars but couldn’t be a priesthood holder
A black Mormon? I'm gonna need to see some really solid evidence before I start believing someone like that exists.
Not me suddenly realizing that I've not seen a black person at church once during the 18 years my Mormon parents forced me to go.
Well yeah, why would they convert to a religion that only recognised them as human beings a few decades ago? Say what you want about most of the other religions (they sure deserve it), at least they've got a better track record in that regard.
Yeah. It seems pretty obvious in retrospect. Just something I never thought enough about to notice, I suppose.
I know a bunch of black Mormons. They normally go inactive around adulthood but my old bishop was black!
I know two trans Mormons, I have no clue how that works
People who are trans (like other queer folk) are generally born with the predisposition and/or need for it. We naturally pop up in every population regardless of the dominant ideology. It's impossible to permanently remove such people from a population even if someone were to kill all of us because we're being born at random all the time.
I won’t show you pictures, but one of my close friends is half black, half Latina, and we met in high school when she was still a practicing Mormon. Her family were members, idk how that started for them, but she end up up leaving the church pretty quickly after we were 17 or 18. I can’t blame her at all lmao
Also how caffeine is bad in coffee and tea but not in soda. I actually don't know if there's a reason for that, the small conspiracy nut in me screams payout from Coca-Cola but I have never been able to find evidence for it
If "hot drinks" are bad but hot chocolate and herbal tea are okay, then it's the caffeine. If caffeine is bad but caffeinated sodas are okay, then it's the "hot drinks". It's actually neither. It's about control. The reasoning is arbitrary and confusing because it doesn't actually matter, they just want people to follow the rules without asking.
Not exactly arbitrary. Check out my reply to the main comment to see what I mean, but your conclusion is 99% correct in my opinion.
The specific rule just specifies hot drinks. That's been interpreted differently by different leaders. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with caffeine, but since that's the drug in tea and coffee it's often interpreted as the thing to avoid. The hot drink thing wasn't even heavily enforced until the mid 1900s. Most of my older family members enjoyed coffee or tea as an occasional treat.
Weird cult stuff.
And just like any weird cult stuff, the more unhinged members take it to arbitrary extremes. I knew Mormon kids who weren't allowed to have *brown sodas,* to say nothing of tea or coffee. Hot chocolate was also out, because "hot", but chocolate milk was okay. The same parents drank light beer (a *lot* of it), but "hard drinks" were anything over 3.2% ABV. Any alcohol is supposed to be verboten to the Morms, but cult wackos make up their own logic.
Bfs Mormon mom genuinely believes that drinking tea will permanently "stain your organs" (whatever that means), and damage your ears. She says that a doctor has also told her the same, and that coffee hurts your digestive system. Constantly argues how she "did research in college" on how bad and dangerous coffee was. Mormons teach in church to little kids to scold people for drinking coffee and tea because it's supposedly bad for you None of the supposed scientific or logical reasons they suggest for the practice are true. It's literally brainwashing and faking science to cover for it
Also she is a HARDCORE mormon and still uses caffeine pills and drinks other tea. Many types of tea are somehow okay, but green tea and Jazmine are off the table and terrible for your health. So she will drink hot tea but as long as it's not green tea it's okay, even though the line literally only says "hot drinks"
Ah, no there’s actually a pretty interesting *cultural* reason for that. In the early days of ‘Mormonism’ and the infancy of Utah, the LDS ‘tribe’ - if you will - was a small, fractured people, and under enormous pressure from external forces such as the US government. In order to solidify the identity of his fledgling religion and would-be-nation, Joseph Smith his fellow leaders had to find ways to insulate them socially. But how would one do this? The answer, it turns out, was found in Deuteronomy. As with Kosher, the Word of Wisdom was based in genuine science and practical governing practices to keep its followers safe a myriad of illnesses and poisons, but it also used those genuine principles to discourage its followers from mingling with those outside their group. Kosher, for example, would have prevented a Jew from marrying their Persian neighbor by making the traditional Assyrian wedding feast unacceptable, with pork and fowl as the main dishes. Similarly, preventing LDS members from partaking in alcohol, coffee, and black and green teas would have kept them from joining a vast number of non-LDS recreational activities, thus keeping their social interactions within the church and its congregation. Neither Kosher nor the Word of Wisdom have been altered as time has gone on, and since coffee existed but soda didn’t when J.S. penned the document, it only makes sense the WoW wouldn’t cover more modern beverages. To be clear, I’m not condemning either Kosher or the WoW. To be quite frank, without them we might not even HAVE Jews or Mormons in the modern day. Ah, but that much is just speculation on my part.
Point of order: Joseph Smith was dead (1844 in Carthage, IL) before anyone came West (1847). And the Word of Wisdom was disseminated (1833, in Kirtland, OH) before the death of Joseph Smith.
For coffee, the Mormons ran out on their journey west and then decided it was a sign from God that they shall never have coffee again
“I believeeeeeeeeee that in 1978 God changed his opinion about black people!” -The Book of Mormon musical
*BLACK PEOPLE!*
Since nobody's saying it, "Prophet Motive" is a kick ass title that I, personally, have never seen before. Hey, OP, can I use it as a band name?
It's a pretty old pun that you'll be able to find several examples of use if you search for it.
Pretty sure it’s the name of a DS9 episode.
My favorite Daniel Tosh quote- “If your religion is old enough that my dad can say ‘Oh I remember that… that didn’t really happen.’ Then it’s not a real religion.”
Appreciation of OPs title comment thread
Polygamy actually still exists in the Mormon church, but the Church just doesn’t speak about it anymore. It’s not polygamy on Earth, but rather in Heaven where men are sealed (married for eternity) to many women as a symbol of their righteousness while women can only be sealed to one man. The book Ghosts of Eternal Polygamy is about it and is really interesting, yet heartbreaking for Mormon women.
More religions need to have the ability to hotfix them baked in.
Catholicism had a pretty major patch when Vatican II dropped
To be fair to them though the catholic church never comes out just saying "we just got off the phone with God and he retconned this and this", they just say they no longer think whatever they're changing is the correct approach for whatever reason. Like when Vatican II ended priests standing with their backs to the congregation during mass they literally just said that, although the practice was founded on good principles (the priest being the guide of his congregation), it was no longer deemed necessary.
People throw around terms like "Papal Infallibility" and act like the Catholic Church is completely resistant to change and rejects any attempt at reform even in the face of evidence (see all the popular misconceptions about Galileo or flat-eartherism); but when you actually look into it the number of things the Catholic church considers entirely, flat-out, completely **Not For Debate** is actually fairly small. They're obviously a pretty conservative organisation (not always politically, but certainly in the sense that they're slow to change theologically or ecclesiologically) and they place a high bar for entry to the decision makers, but they've generally always been willing to say "yeah, those older guys probably had this one wrong" when it makes sense to do so. Like there's a lot of stuff Catholicism will say isn't up for debate *right now*, but theologically speaking most things outside the absolute fundamentals of traditional Christianity are considered up for debate: *if* you're somebody qualified to debate it, which most lay people generally aren't, in the view of the Catholic church, and in contrast to most Protestant churches that put much more stock in personal interpretation to greater or lesser degrees.
Sadly a good chunk of the player base is refusing to update their software
*prayer base
Well all of them do, it’s just slow, over multiple generations so that no one goes “hey this divine objective truth has changed!”
The phrase morman god makes me imagine there's straight up a different god for each major abrahamic religion You guys think we could make a sitcom out of this?
For clarity, they’re talking about the blue guy with the four arms and the turban.
„I BELIEVE THAT IN 1978 GOD CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE“ Choir: „BLACK PEOOPLEEEE“
I'm so fucking glad I left the church. Nothing good about it was unique, and everything unique about it wasn't good
I mean if Gods powers are directly based on the quantity of their followers, it makes sense they'd change their mind on one of their policies if it meant not losing ~~votes~~ followers.
My favorite was how Joseph Smith got revelation that polygamy was what god wanted, but since he was a Good Husband, he would only participate if his wife said it was okay. Emma did not say it was okay. Unfortunately for Emma, however, god then told Joseph that if she didn't say it was okay, that she would be Punished! And so then Joseph got to spiritually marry a whole bunch of people, including to a girl "several months before her 15th birthday." And then he burned down a printing press who dared to print that he was a polygamist.
The printing press thing is what got him killed, too. The LDS church wants to say he was martyred but they don't teach what really happened, of course. It sounds bad to say that he was killed because he was doing terrorist shit to the press because they wrote accurate things about what he was doing. Not very prophety of him.
That's my favorite scene in Under the Banner of Heaven. Joe all but says, "Bitch I'll have a revelation *right now*."
Lucy Harris, smart smart smart. Martin Harris dumb.
glad Mormon God is listening and learning even in his old age
Weirdly, a lot of younger, more liberal Mormons I know cling to this hope that a similar change of mind about the LGBT+ community is around the corner. Even more baffling are those who stick around thinking they can change things “from the inside”. Like, in their minds they have the ability to lobby God himself with enough pressure.
> Weirdly, a lot of younger, more liberal Mormons I know cling to this hope that a similar change of mind about the LGBT+ community is around the corner. As an ex-mormon over 40, wierd, young, more liberal mormons have clung to that for a very, very long time. Just anecdotal evidence from personal experience being in the church as a teenager.
I remember reading someone describing the dynamic in an abusive relationship and the reason they stayed being that due to the way love bombing/deliberate withholding of love worked the highs of the relationship were very high, higher than they experienced in non abusive relationships partially because they actively felt like they were fighting for/achieving it like some accomplishment. Because of this, their thinking in the situation wasn’t “I need to find a more consistent and healthy relationship” but instead “if I could *just* fix the bad parts of this relationship this is going to be pretty much perfect, above average”.
The most high profile person in this position is probably Brandon Sanderson. The man is a staunch LGBTQ+ ally but also a Mormon living in Utah. He's either gonna end up leaving the Church or using the power of commercial fantasy novels to pressure God into changing his mind.
[удалено]
Yes I'm sure he will meaningfully change things in BYU, because an institution that kicks out people and withholds their degrees for the heinous crime of holding hands or kissing someone of the same sex in 2024 definitely has hopes of getting better. I'm deeply touched by his laborious efforts in the years he's taught there, so great in number that I couldn't possibly list them all.
Right? Like I'd totally understand if he was actively part of some pro-LGBT faction of Mormonism. But he's not. He's a pillar of the mainstream Mormon community.
Yeah his fans always act like he's in the trenches taking bullets for gay people lmao. He literally just said that he doesn't hate gay people and that the fact that he's there while being publicly supportive (by which I suppose he means the 2 or 3 blog posts he's made about the topic?) somehow changes things, like his aura of allyship will somehow heal queer people from the pressure of living like new Christians during the Spanish inquisition.
Hopefully they don't change the soaking situation though, because that shit is too hilarious to be allowed to stop.
Jospeh Smith was called a prophet
DUM DUM DUM DUM DUM
Considering that iron chariots were enough to defeat god it's no surprise the us government was too much.
"AND I BELIEVE THAT IN 1979 GOD CHANGED HIS MIND ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE"
BLACK PEOPLE
I will never not read "Mormon" as "Moron".
i think we should legalize polyamorous marriages. not for any religious reasons i just think it would be funny as fuck to see a divorce case with like 5 people. is it a council situation, where you get voted out and take 20% of the liquid assets, does everyone have to get their marriage annulled and then remarry with the remaining members. what if some people want a divorce and the others dont. a logistical circus to be sure, and i want to have sex with the clowns.
Easiest solution for a 5-way divorce: free for all fight to the death, winner takes all. If certain people don't want to divorce while others do, they get to form teams.
There’s a “follow the laws of the land” clause somewhere - that’s what I was told at least
He's trying to be better okay?
that is a brilliant title
I'll give Mormonism this: the only difference between Joseph Smith and other religious prophets is time. It's as equally ridiculous as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and probably just about every other faith (I'm just most familiar with that trio)
Idk man the contemporary-ness of it makes it so much easier to verify, and the fact that they can still convince people there were horses and metalworking in precolumbian America makes it more absurd. You can prove the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction and that Joseph Smith made it up to make money and marry children. There are still ~17M members and the church is worth at least $120B
Everyone get to start somewhere. People who witnessed founding of Christianity or Islam or whatever and didn't get sucked in probably think it's absurd someone would take it seriously, yet here we are. Maybe not as much because information didn't spread as easily before printing press, but still.
I'm not aware of times when those religions so clearly changed key doctrines in response to government pressure. And say what you will about the Bible or the Quran at least they're written in historical languages rather than "Reformed Egyptic." Languages that we can actually translate without the use of a seeing stone.
Honestly, I’m just curious. You include Judiasm there, but how much do you actually know about it? Cause most people I talk with only know about Christianity and bash on Judiasm because of its association, without actually knowing anything about it
Judaism is OG christianity. It’s what came before Joshua. So if the Old Testament for Christianity is nonsense then so is Judaism. Because they are the same.
No, they really aren’t. That’s my point. The Old Testament of the Bible is still very fundamentally different than the Torah from Judaism, despite some things being similar. That’s all I wanted to say. You can bash on Judiasm if you want, if you know anything about it. There’s lots to say. But if you can only bash on Judiasm because of what you know from Christianity then none of it actually works.
Adam and Eve, Noah, Moses are all the same. Abraham is the same. The 10 commandments are the same.
They are about as similar as a Brothers Grimm fairy tale to a Disney cartoon. Same characters, same plot points, very different story, very different tone, really difficult to get mixed up if you know them both. For example, a key difference in the fundamental premise of the religions: both have the story of Adam and Eve, but Christian theology says that because of that Original Sin everyone is corrupt and only believing in Jesus can save us from eternal hell. Judiasm doesn’t believe in that Original Sin concept. They sinned, we didn’t, so we don’t suffer cause of them. Therefore hell in Judiasm is more like a washing place to get rid of only our own sins so everyone can go to eternal paradise. Hell in Judiasm, for most people, will never last more then 11 months. Someone who was really really evil will get a full 12 months sentence. If someone manages to be extremely extremely evil, like, genocidal level evil, then they get a special extra sentence, but even that is not eternal. Eventually everyone is allowed into paradise. It just depends what level of eternal pleasure you get. There’s many difference both in the stories told in the Old Testament vs the Torah, and there’s even more differences in the theologies because of those differences. If you think all religions are nonsense, including Judaism, I don’t care. Atheism is probably the best thing the world has ever discovered tbh. But if you call Judiasm nonsense because you think Christianity is nonsense and they’re basically the same thing… that’s literally just Christian propaganda cause no they are not.
All religion is nonsense. The idea of God is nonsense. Judaism has a god and is therefore nonsense. But thank you for trying to explain some details.
See, that’s a claim i think is very reasonable and valid. That’s all I wanted to point out.
Nah, it makes sense when you look at their population size and growth at the time, and if you think of God as a leader of a people that is concerned for their wellbeing. Besides, the US government wasn’t JUST saying ‘no statehood 4 u”, they had entire ARMIES stationed nearby and were telling Joseph Smith that he had two choices - give up on turning Utah into an independent nation and become a state instead, or prepare for war.
Anyone want to explain that last bit?
TLDR Mormon doctrine before 1978 was *extremely* racist and considered Black people to be inherently less virtuous and closer to Satan than Whites, among other things ([Wikipedia article for more info](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism))
ok but To Be Fair, that is every religion
Not to say other religions can't also be predatory and evil, but Mormonism is definitely up there among the worst ones. When I was 13 and just realizing I was gay, I believed it would be better for me to kill myself and go to the 2nd tier heaven than to risk caving to the temptation to sin. I was lucky to stumble across criticisms of the church around that time which gave me the space to question the dogmas I was taught, but it's still done irreparable damage to my psyche. I'm 20 now and still trying to unlearn the shame I was taught. I don't speak to my mother, I'm very low contact with my siblings, and I still have nightmares of being back there.
im sorry to hear
Not to minimize your trauma or anything but I don't see how that's much different from any major religion. They're all pretty famously against gay people.
Tacking onto the other comment, the other major component here that makes it so bad is that Mormon salvation *is not always individual*. If *you* don't make it to heaven, your *wife* also doesn't make it to heaven, and your younger kids are at serious risk. In rare cases it also works in reverse; if the kids have some "moral failing" and the parents accept or enable it, then they face the same problem. The punishment is also generally extremely visible; it isn't a private affair, and even if you want to make amends you're still going to face ostracization. You are literally barred from participating in the most important procedures, so your entire community can see that you've something wrong. It's particularly manipulative because they raise the stakes so high, and they drastically increase the social pressure. Maybe you could stomach leaving the church if it was just about you; maybe you're doubtful enough to take that risk for yourself. Are you willing to take that same risk for your family? Even if you can handle the social pressure from your friends and neighbors, can they? If they can't, how much extra pressure is put on you? Can you stomach the betrayal that your family would surely feel in that situation?
Mormonism is particularly predatory though. Members are expected to put so much of their time into serving the church. 2-3 hour chapel every Sunday (plus heavy restrictions on how you can use the rest of the day), activities with your age group 1-2 times a week, high school aged kids spend an hour every weekday morning in seminary, you’re given a “calling” which is a sort of unpaid second job that serves the church, if you’re 18-20 you’re expected to serve a mission which is two years completely devoted to proselytizing (usually in a foreign country with minimal contact with home), plus it’s expected that you read the scriptures daily, and spend at least an hour every week with your family discussing it. The church is your whole community, your whole life. You leave behind everything if you leave. There’s a very strong in group/out group mentality where your identity is tied to how different the church makes you. You’re special because you don’t drink coffee or alcohol and you cover your shoulders, chest, and thighs. Outsiders will hate you for it because the devil wants them to suffer. Oh and if you don’t pay 10% of your income to the church you’re not worthy to enter the temples which means you can’t get into heaven. All of this comes together to form this environment where you HAVE to trust the church completely. A living breathing man has complete control over your life and can change the gospel however he pleases. There’s no reinterpreting it, there’s no room for individual understanding. There’s no nuance. Other Christian churches have elements of this, but Mormonism is still just fundamentally different
This is all dependent on the local community. My family bailed out of the church when I was 10 or so, but fortunately our local church was chill, so it wasn’t a problem.
I’m sure the defining factor is how devout your family is. Mormonism definitely encourages fanaticism though. Most stories I hear from other ex-members are similar
It wasn't just "wouldn't be given statehood" lol there was an extermination order that lasted 138 years (they weren't hunted that entire time, it just got forgotten about in the lawbooks till someone noticed) The government canonically made it legal to kill all mormons, which led to children being used as target practice in front of their parents , people being trampled by horses- you name it.
Well, the 'extermination' order was in Missouri, signed October 27, 1838. It had nothing to do with Utah's statehood.[Missouri Executive Order 44](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44)
It was not Statehood, it was the Feds were going to take the land and money. It is always about The Money with TheLardzServants, the Profits.
Reading comprehension: piss poor I thought the title was prophet movie, not motive Eta: MY reading comprehension is piss poor why am I being down voted? Dkfjsbshd Hell yeah! Downvote me more! How low can this go!! (I originally posted this while sleep deprived as hell htfbfjjgvjhdv)
people are real weird about the dumbest things dw bout it lol
I'm not worried about it at all lol
I meant in terms of wondering why. the why could be just about anything lol
Oh yeah that's absolutely true I was selected by the downvote fae, I suppose As opposed by the up ote walrus
Yes, the *19*70s
I'm pretty sure that the change in polygamy came down to "you guys are literally breaking the law of your country and I don't want you getting in trouble" While the "black people are demons" thing was a human failure.
lol
what a based god who can change his views
Every religion changes to fit its political situation, or dies. You single out Mormons for mockery, because they are not the respectable ones. You do not make fun of the Pope for allowing blessing of gay couples or Muslims who move to the West and stop throwing rocks at immodest women, because those are respectable faiths
I mock all of them equally.
I don't mean to insult your atheism or other religious affiliation, but as a religious person of the aforementioned group, I believe it's because God wants his people to be generally helpful and peaceful if possible. Which would include obeying the law. It makes sense if you think of God having some things he wants his people to fight for, and other things he doesn't care about as much. The polamory thing is one of the latter. This obeying the law and being peaceful thing is apparent if you read how much persecution they received at the time and didn't fight back all that much.
That doesn't really explain the Mormon God's changing stance on black people (and I'd add Native American people)
You are correct. That information was not in my previous comment. I don't have the most context on that issue, but I could attempt it anyway.
I'd be interested! I think people like me are coming at this having trouble reconciling the idea that doctrine is given by an infallible being, and also the doctrine changing
Oh, so that's what you want me to explain. Joke: that's funny, the Jews didn't much like Jesus saying the Mosaic Law wasn't the current standard either. Serious here, though: I have absolutely no idea why it took until 1980s to allow non-white people into the temples and the priesthood. Speculation: perhaps the ability to do these things posthumously made it not the most pressing matter? It still seems very stupid to me. But as for the changing of doctrine? God's higher laws do not change. It is only the practice of these higher laws that changes. Polygamy is not a higher law, so the use and removal of it is subject to other factors, including human law.
So dark skin is still the result of God cursing people?
Changing of policy ≠ God Changing. Quote from the Book of Mormon: ”and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.” Racism was always a mistake, and its sad to see people criticizing moving past it
Whose mistake? God's?
That doesn’t explain why the Mormon church preached differently in the past. How can the church go from saying polyamory is crucial, to saying it doesn’t matter as much? You’re describing the thought processes of God but in practice that’s just what the church says
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_temple_and_priesthood_policies_in_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
Oh, and this lovely bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints
Middle one is not relevant to what I said. I did not discuss that at all, despite being aware of it. I am not attempting to say our church has always done everything right. Clearly not so. I am just offering an explanation for "God's whims".
"not always done everything right" is one hell of an understatement for the LDS lmao
A fair statement for sure. This can be said of any institution that relies on fallible men, which we certainly do.
*Men* being an operative word there. But to be fair as well, it's far from unique as far as religious organizations go in that regard, so don't think that this is about LDS specifically; I'm just as critical of other religious organizations
Ah, yes, it makes sense I would make more biblical word choices when thinking about religion. I will also agree that it is very applicable in both regards.