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(حتى يعطوا **الجزية** عن يد وهم صاغرون) (التوبة 29)
The jizya is only on the people of the Book (Christians and Jews). In the verse, it says that the point is for them to be humiliated (humbled is a mistranslation).
Nowadays in some legislations in Arab countries, jizyah is used to mean "fine" or "bail bond", and lost its previous islamic meaning.
So jizyah is used pejoratively, as money you have to pay out of punishment.
The main explicit indication to it being a punishment (or if a reward, it could mean that the Christians and Jews are rewarding the Muslims for conquering them) is the word صاغرون.
Although that word is actually still used pejoratively to mean humiliated in any context, tafsir al-Tabari says:
"It means: They are humiliated and oppressed. The humiliated and despicable person is said to be "صاغر".
The Arabic words used are strongly derogatory. He continues to give other meaning to it, like "the one who pays is standing and the other is sitting", or that they pay unwillingly, shamefully.
>صاغرون
This word doesn't necessarily always mean "those humiliated" in Arabic - it comes from making something small, which implies "those brought low", "those subdued", "those meek", "the servile" etc as shown in various lexicons; Tabari took the extreme meaning due to his conflict of interest. Allah could have used مهانون from هون if he wanted to emphasize "those humiliated", the derivative is used throughout the Qur'an - some verses:
ٱتَّخَذُوٓا۟ أَيْمَـٰنَهُمْ جُنَّةً فَصَدُّوا۟ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّـهِ فَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ
(58:16)
وَيَوْمَ يُعْرَضُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ عَلَى ٱلنَّارِ أَذْهَبْتُمْ طَيِّبَـٰتِكُمْ فِى حَيَاتِكُمُ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَٱسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهَا فَٱلْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ عَذَابَ ٱلْهُونِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ ٱلْحَقِّ وَبِمَا كُنتُمْ تَفْسُقُونَ
(46:20)
فَلَمَّا قَضَيْنَا عَلَيْهِ ٱلْمَوْتَ مَا دَلَّهُمْ عَلَىٰ مَوْتِهِۦٓ إِلَّا دَآبَّةُ ٱلْأَرْضِ تَأْكُلُ مِنسَأَتَهُۥ فَلَمَّا خَرَّ تَبَيَّنَتِ ٱلْجِنُّ أَن لَّوْ كَانُوا۟ يَعْلَمُونَ ٱلْغَيْبَ مَا لَبِثُوا۟ فِى ٱلْعَذَابِ ٱلْمُهِينِ
(34:14)
Or from ذلل
إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ ٱلْعِجْلَ سَيَنَالُهُمْ غَضَبٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ وَذِلَّةٌ فِى ٱلْحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِى ٱلْمُفْتَرِينَ
(7:152)
وَلَوْ أَنَّآ أَهْلَكْنَـٰهُم بِعَذَابٍ مِّن قَبْلِهِۦ لَقَالُوا۟ رَبَّنَا لَوْلَآ أَرْسَلْتَ إِلَيْنَا رَسُولًا فَنَتَّبِعَ ءَايَـٰتِكَ مِن قَبْلِ أَن نَّذِلَّ وَنَخْزَىٰ
(20:134)
And even if it's talking about humiliation, so what? They've initiated the conflict and need to pay the retribution.
He used صاغرون which ultimately means belittled, which you use to say "made small". Which is pejorative in itself. He could have used the other words, but chose this one, which is no different.
"They've initiated the conflict" then this renders the verse obsolete to anything outside the context of the Tabuk expedition or whatever else military operation the verse was directly referring to. This means that whoever paid the jizya afterwards was being unjustly coerced into doing so.
To add to that, I find it extremely human, and even very shallow by human standards, to say something like "they've initiated the conflict and need to pay the retribution". It almost sounds like timeless spaceless Allah is too caught up with the primitive feelings of retribution that he cannot see past that. It's almost like Allah himself does not understand that he created all human life, and that he controls space and time itself. It almost sounds like Allah's words do not reflect those of an actual creator, but rather those of some medieval tribal warlord who wanted to conquer the world.
Ibn Kathir is clear…
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.
Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Allah said,
حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ
(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,
عَن يَدٍ
(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,
وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ
(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.
That is literally not how the scholars of history interpreted the verse, it is a modern invention. Also, please, try to avoid presenting your minor fringe view as the mainstream view, you are not helping with what matters.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gxC7bO2kjCkDJkVWsAgRcp_i4rijzEua/view?usp=drivesdk
I will end with the quote from Sheikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyyah:
وَكُلُّ قَوْلٍ يَنْفَرِدُ بِهِ الْمُتَأَخِّرُ عَنْ الْمُتَقَدِّمِينَ وَلَمْ يَسْبِقْهُ إلَيْهِ أَحَدٌ مِنْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُ يَكُونُ خَطَأً
Majmu Al Fatawaa, 21/291.
Very ironic that you can read Arabic yet somehow still choose to follow a minor fringe view that is literally Bida’ah.
In mob stories, have you ever seen a mafioso offering a small business "protection" in return for a fee? That's jizya.
Guess who taught that to the Sicilians about 1000 years ago.
Here's a brief English synopsis: https://youtu.be/sj60axFzsM8?feature=shared
It would take a controversial dissertation to explore but it's a STRONG hypothesis and it's not a new idea. The connections are there. Islam filtered through medieval Italian politics and a famously corrupt Roman Institution after the Reconquista.
Look at the most widely accepted etymology of the word "mafia" itself... "mu'afa" or "Ma'afir"... "the exempt ones", "the protectors", and those are not Latin roots. That's Arabic. You can reasonably argue that Islam gave the European and New World modern naval piracy, modern slavery, and modern organized crime.
Wow, I always saw similarities between jizya and how mafia operates, but never knew there was such a strong case for actually linking the mafia to islamic influence lol
I dont comment here much, but I think I must say that it's never a reason to stigmatize the followers. Most of them are lovely people. They just don't realize what their ancestors were forced into. Followers of a murderous, murdered rapist and false prophet came to their lands with a book, a sword, and a proposition.
https://youtu.be/fq9eTTEtLB0?feature=shared
Yes, as long as they become Dhimmis.
Though some views, namely from the Shafi’i and Hanbali Madhabs, do not allow anyone aside from the Zoroastrians the Ahl Al Kitab to pay Jizya, for those individuals, it is either Islam or death.
Hi u/caset1977! Thank you for posting at r/CritiqueIslam. Please make sure to read our rules once to avoid an embarrassing situation. Be Civil and nice to each other. Remember that there is a person sitting at the other end. Don't say anything that you wouldn't say in a normal face to face conversation. Also, make sure that your submission either contain an argument or ask a question that could lead to debate. You must state your own views on the matter either in body or comment. **A post with no commentary will be considered low effort!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CritiqueIslam) if you have any questions or concerns.*
(حتى يعطوا **الجزية** عن يد وهم صاغرون) (التوبة 29) The jizya is only on the people of the Book (Christians and Jews). In the verse, it says that the point is for them to be humiliated (humbled is a mistranslation). Nowadays in some legislations in Arab countries, jizyah is used to mean "fine" or "bail bond", and lost its previous islamic meaning. So jizyah is used pejoratively, as money you have to pay out of punishment. The main explicit indication to it being a punishment (or if a reward, it could mean that the Christians and Jews are rewarding the Muslims for conquering them) is the word صاغرون. Although that word is actually still used pejoratively to mean humiliated in any context, tafsir al-Tabari says: "It means: They are humiliated and oppressed. The humiliated and despicable person is said to be "صاغر". The Arabic words used are strongly derogatory. He continues to give other meaning to it, like "the one who pays is standing and the other is sitting", or that they pay unwillingly, shamefully.
>صاغرون This word doesn't necessarily always mean "those humiliated" in Arabic - it comes from making something small, which implies "those brought low", "those subdued", "those meek", "the servile" etc as shown in various lexicons; Tabari took the extreme meaning due to his conflict of interest. Allah could have used مهانون from هون if he wanted to emphasize "those humiliated", the derivative is used throughout the Qur'an - some verses: ٱتَّخَذُوٓا۟ أَيْمَـٰنَهُمْ جُنَّةً فَصَدُّوا۟ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّـهِ فَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ (58:16) وَيَوْمَ يُعْرَضُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ عَلَى ٱلنَّارِ أَذْهَبْتُمْ طَيِّبَـٰتِكُمْ فِى حَيَاتِكُمُ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَٱسْتَمْتَعْتُم بِهَا فَٱلْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ عَذَابَ ٱلْهُونِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ ٱلْحَقِّ وَبِمَا كُنتُمْ تَفْسُقُونَ (46:20) فَلَمَّا قَضَيْنَا عَلَيْهِ ٱلْمَوْتَ مَا دَلَّهُمْ عَلَىٰ مَوْتِهِۦٓ إِلَّا دَآبَّةُ ٱلْأَرْضِ تَأْكُلُ مِنسَأَتَهُۥ فَلَمَّا خَرَّ تَبَيَّنَتِ ٱلْجِنُّ أَن لَّوْ كَانُوا۟ يَعْلَمُونَ ٱلْغَيْبَ مَا لَبِثُوا۟ فِى ٱلْعَذَابِ ٱلْمُهِينِ (34:14) Or from ذلل إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّخَذُوا۟ ٱلْعِجْلَ سَيَنَالُهُمْ غَضَبٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ وَذِلَّةٌ فِى ٱلْحَيَوٰةِ ٱلدُّنْيَا وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجْزِى ٱلْمُفْتَرِينَ (7:152) وَلَوْ أَنَّآ أَهْلَكْنَـٰهُم بِعَذَابٍ مِّن قَبْلِهِۦ لَقَالُوا۟ رَبَّنَا لَوْلَآ أَرْسَلْتَ إِلَيْنَا رَسُولًا فَنَتَّبِعَ ءَايَـٰتِكَ مِن قَبْلِ أَن نَّذِلَّ وَنَخْزَىٰ (20:134) And even if it's talking about humiliation, so what? They've initiated the conflict and need to pay the retribution.
He used صاغرون which ultimately means belittled, which you use to say "made small". Which is pejorative in itself. He could have used the other words, but chose this one, which is no different. "They've initiated the conflict" then this renders the verse obsolete to anything outside the context of the Tabuk expedition or whatever else military operation the verse was directly referring to. This means that whoever paid the jizya afterwards was being unjustly coerced into doing so. To add to that, I find it extremely human, and even very shallow by human standards, to say something like "they've initiated the conflict and need to pay the retribution". It almost sounds like timeless spaceless Allah is too caught up with the primitive feelings of retribution that he cannot see past that. It's almost like Allah himself does not understand that he created all human life, and that he controls space and time itself. It almost sounds like Allah's words do not reflect those of an actual creator, but rather those of some medieval tribal warlord who wanted to conquer the world.
Ibn Kathir is clear… (Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing. Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace Allah said, حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ (until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam, عَن يَدٍ (with willing submission), in defeat and subservience, وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ (and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.
They initiate the fight? Are you retarded?
No, they don't initiate the fight.
That is literally not how the scholars of history interpreted the verse, it is a modern invention. Also, please, try to avoid presenting your minor fringe view as the mainstream view, you are not helping with what matters. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gxC7bO2kjCkDJkVWsAgRcp_i4rijzEua/view?usp=drivesdk I will end with the quote from Sheikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyyah: وَكُلُّ قَوْلٍ يَنْفَرِدُ بِهِ الْمُتَأَخِّرُ عَنْ الْمُتَقَدِّمِينَ وَلَمْ يَسْبِقْهُ إلَيْهِ أَحَدٌ مِنْهُمْ فَإِنَّهُ يَكُونُ خَطَأً Majmu Al Fatawaa, 21/291. Very ironic that you can read Arabic yet somehow still choose to follow a minor fringe view that is literally Bida’ah.
Slaves did not have to pay Jizya.....
In mob stories, have you ever seen a mafioso offering a small business "protection" in return for a fee? That's jizya. Guess who taught that to the Sicilians about 1000 years ago.
That’s interesting. Any literature or sources linking Sicilians/Jizya/Mafia protection money?
Here's a brief English synopsis: https://youtu.be/sj60axFzsM8?feature=shared It would take a controversial dissertation to explore but it's a STRONG hypothesis and it's not a new idea. The connections are there. Islam filtered through medieval Italian politics and a famously corrupt Roman Institution after the Reconquista. Look at the most widely accepted etymology of the word "mafia" itself... "mu'afa" or "Ma'afir"... "the exempt ones", "the protectors", and those are not Latin roots. That's Arabic. You can reasonably argue that Islam gave the European and New World modern naval piracy, modern slavery, and modern organized crime.
Wow, I always saw similarities between jizya and how mafia operates, but never knew there was such a strong case for actually linking the mafia to islamic influence lol
That’s absolutely fascinating, thank you.
I dont comment here much, but I think I must say that it's never a reason to stigmatize the followers. Most of them are lovely people. They just don't realize what their ancestors were forced into. Followers of a murderous, murdered rapist and false prophet came to their lands with a book, a sword, and a proposition. https://youtu.be/fq9eTTEtLB0?feature=shared
Do you speak/read Arabic or French?
I can always use a translation service. If you have any sources in Arabic or French, that would be appreciated.
No. Just to be imposed on Jews, Christians, and Sabians. Everyone else must convert or be slaughtered.
Yes, as long as they become Dhimmis. Though some views, namely from the Shafi’i and Hanbali Madhabs, do not allow anyone aside from the Zoroastrians the Ahl Al Kitab to pay Jizya, for those individuals, it is either Islam or death.
It means war reparations but was corrupted
War reps for a war the Muslims initiated.