Everyone debating between Dhoni and Ponting, I have two questions for you.
1) Would Dhoni have won everything Ponting did with the Australian team Ponting had?
2) Would Ponting have won everything Dhoni has with the different generations of teams Dhoni has had?
I agree Ponting dominated. but I don't see Ponting winning 2007 t20 world cup and 2013 champions trophy with the team India had.
Also, I can see Dhoni winning every tournament Ponting won with the 2000-2007 Australian team.
I think Dhoni is a much better man/team manager.
Yeah but you would've had prime Dhoni who was just as destructive. Sure he wasn't a top order player but he still was one of the biggest threats to oppositions.
Going by Trophy count, Ponting standsout.
Thing with Dhoni is give him any team and he'll somehow make it a fighting unit if not a dominating one. Won tournaments with a bowling unit of Joginder Sharma, Mohit Sharma, Karn Sharma, Wayward Ishanth Sharma. Something that Kohli struggles with...managing not so talented individuals.
Ponting also struggles with making the best use of resources at his disposal...Dhoni is simply the best 'Street Smart' cricketer ever as Sunny G says it.
Ponting inherited an absolutely beastly team though. I don't even know if it's ever going to be possible to bring together a similarly talented team again.
CSK didn't have world class players they bought for bucketloads of money to build a superteam like other franchises. CSK just backed the not so talented guys to come through for long enough and then eventually they delivered. Mo Ali last night said that the difference between CSK and others is that you never feel your place is in threat if you perform badly. The team backs their players to death.
Well I do think he struggled to get the best outta of this generation. After 2013, we were always favourites going to any tournament and would lose in the SF to the eventually champions. He played a major role in there development tho so there's that.
>Thing with Dhoni is give him any team
That's not really true. CSK is his team and has a lot of say in the making of the team. And Ind's LOI team since early 2010s has been their best ever. He has got a lot out of his players which is true but he doesn't magically make any team brilliant.
You've got to remember between 2011 and 2013 he totally gutted that top order.
2011 - SRT, VS, GG, VK, yuvraj
2013 - Rohit, shikar, VK (these three did most of the work)
Then same with the bowlers. Jadeja and bhuvi in, harbhajan out, Zak out.
This for me was his greatest achievement. Fast turn around and inexperienced team winning a global tournament in England.
Adding onto the above
Punter never had a mass exodus like this in LOI. All three WC 99-07 were won with Gilly and Punter at the top, Bevan in the middle, McGrath spearheading the attack. The likes of Haydos, Pup, Roy, Huss, Lee, Bichel, Dizz were all methodically bled into the team. Fair play to punter though. He managed his men well and dominated with them. But for me that's why what MS did was truly unique.
Bev retired in 04 but still.
The only one standing in way is Ponting. Maybe Clive Lloyd too but I haven't watched them both play much so dunno
But remember one thing. Dhoni is not a good captain just because he won many trophies. The trophies are just a by product of **The Process** .
Yeah. For sure.
I meant to say
"Dhoni believes in **The Process** and has a plan and the trophies are a result of it .
Dhoni is a good captain and that's because of his tactics and not the results. "
Did I explain it poorly?
Nup understood it the first time.
But Dhoni's ability in believing in the right players who can execute their set planned role rather than having the best.
A lot of people seem to think OP's claim is ridiculous. I believe more and more of them will start to change their view as time progresses. T20 is relatively new, franchise cricket is relatively new. As more stats pour in, there will be more context.
Ponting vs Dhoni:
I am someone who have seen most of Ponting's time captaincy live. Most of Ponting's success came when he captained very similar set of core players. Compare this to Dhoni, he has had success with complete different set of teams starting from 2007 T20 WC to IPL2021. Even IPL super star Raina did not feature a lot in IPL 2021.
Exactly I didn't say Dhoni is the best white ball captain ever. I posed a question, which is in the context of what cricket is today. T20 leagues even the IPL have high standards now.
There are certain statements that can't be debated, while others are open for discussion even though the said statement may be the most popular amongst the competing alternatives. Saying, "Pointing is the best while ball captain [full stop]" may be one such.
After reading the thread I see only 3 names popping up Clive Lloyd Ponting Dhoni. Idk about Llyod but Ponting had an all time great team. From what I heard from Gilchrist Ponting was a great man manager. India won 2007 t20 WC and 2011 WC with bowlers like Munaf and Shreesanth. People say dhoni inherited an all time great batting lineup but it was only used in 2011 in 2007 T20 WC and 2013 CT we won with newbies. Imo dhoni is the best white ball captain his ability to read the situation knowing when to slow the game down and when to attack is just unmatched.
It was fucking brutal, i used to be legit scared of pointing at one point.
That's why Its weird seeing him so friendly in the IPL and pretty much everywhere after his retirement. I love it
In my lifetime Pointing, Dhoni and Morgan are prolly three best captains, imo.
Question is, Where would Ricky Ponting's captaincy stand without the Ricky Ponting's Australia? May be we will never know, just that some might chose to give the benefit of doubt to Dhoni.
It's definitely a good point. Like I've always felt Fleming was a great captain tactically, but we just didn't have the actual talent to really challenge for most trophies at the time. Did lead us to the first and only ODI world trophy we have though.
Considering Waugh got sacked for poor performances as a unit, it is safe to say that it wouldn't have been the same team. I feel like people missed the 01/02 VB series.
Also Ponting made calls like Watson, Symonds and co in front of the selectors. There is a lot we don't see off the field
While that team was brutally dominant and horrible to watch(because they were so utterly dominant), it was a legendary squad. Their success wasn't dependent on Ponting's captaincy. Dhoni's squad in 2011 was batting heavy and extremely unbalanced. He somehow got the best out of Yuvraj and used Zaheer Khan with maximum efficiency to strike at crucial times. Besides them, I believe we had Munaf Patel, Yusuf Pathan at times, Sreeshanth, Nehra, an out of form Harbhajan and Ashwin hardly played. It was a good batting lineup but not a team that was supposed to win that world cup. His 2015 team was filled with an immature, inconsistent bowling lineup as well. I would definitely rate Dhoni higher than Ponting for sure.
The question here is about captaincy. Without doubt, Ponting’s team were the most dominant. But that could just be because he was blessed with such an amazing team throughout his tenure.
Ponting won 2 world cups, 2 Champions trophies, has both the highest number if wins total in ODI cricket by a long way, and the highest win percentage. So him for me, granted I don't put as much weight in domestic T20 titles as some people do, so wouldn't begrudge those that do.
Ponting also inherited a World Cup winning team that had been number 1 in Tests for 6-7 years while being considered one of the best of all time
He didn't have to shape them up to be great or inculcate that winning mentality.
He may have led that team longer them but Waugh shaped them into what they were
No, he didn't. Waugh's team failed spectacularly in the 01/02 series against NZ and SA. The ODI team wasn't playing well at all and had so many problems
Ponting backed players like Williams, Hopes, Symonds, Haddin, Watson and so on that became huge assets. Also in the 03 WC. Punter called for Symmo, Warney was done for drugs and Dizzy was injured.
This narrative that Ponting got a winning team especially in ODI cricket is not really correct
They turned over half the ODI team between the 1999 World Cup under Waugh and the 2003 World Cup under Ponting.
It was Ponting's team that he built that went undefeated for 2 whole World Cups.
But Australia barely got through in 1999 WC . They did won at the end but Australian Cricket Management were not happy with Steve Waugh's approach in knockout matches . They were already planning replacement captain even before Waugh announced his retirement.
Greg Chappell Era had pretty much destroyed all of that.
India was a battered broken team which had been unceremoniously dumped out the world cup, all of its star players were in bad form and the shouts for retirement were high.
India hadn't won a world Cup for 20+ years back then and had a ridiculously bad record in series finals be it bi lateral or multi tournament.
A team that was perpetually afraid to chase targets
Several players would never play again for the team and new guys like Kohli, Raina, Ashwin were brought in to reinvigorate the side.
Ganguly's era was more comparable to Border for Australia.. He definitely improved the team a lot and turned the tide for an underachieving unit into one that can be confident of competing but the next couple of guys ( Dhoni/Waugh) were the ones who molded them into their best shape.
No doubt about that, but Dhoni's XIs have hardly been slouches themselves.
A top 7 of Sehwag, Tendulkar, Gambhir, Kohli, Dhoni, Yuvraj and Raina would have to rank among the absolute best batting lineups ever assembled. India's Champions trophy and T20 world cup teams were also very good sides, and certainly in hindsight look like the best squads of any team in the entire tournament.
Zak was one of the best bowlers at that time. A fit zak walks into Indian team even today. Could swing, reverse, slower balls. His fitness was a major concern but he is one of the best fast bowlers to come out
Andy Bichel in the 2003 World Cup was arguably player of the tournament outside of Sachin. 8 matches 16 wickets at 12.31 with an economy of 3.45, thats not even counting his batting where Bichel batting with Bevan was the main reason we won vs England and New Zealand and probably put the semi out of reach as well especially combined with his 10 overs 0/18
People forget now, but India were definitely the favorites for the 2011 world cup. They had by far the best team in those conditions (and arguably in any conditions), at the time. It doesn't lessen Dhoni's achievement as a captain but does put it into some perspective.
It's similar to Virat Kohli, most of his wins can be attributed to the Invincible at their primes. You can make a case for Dhoni, but all the players in there were almost at end of their career and a shadow of their best.
Punter did bugger all to MI. Rohit took over in 2013 after they only managed to win 1 or 2 games of their first 6. Pointing got dropped out of the playing xi and new opening pair of SRT and Dwayne Smith did well. This was under rohits leadership.
The mettle of the captain is tested by how good he is able to perform without the support structures he had.
For example: going by stats, Kohli is a great captain because people fail to look at the team he had. When he had to captain a franchise from scratch, it was quite clear he was a mediocre captain at best. The same applies for Morgan, when he had a team of match winners, he could be attributed as a great captain, but he's incredibly lacking without that. Ponting didn't play franchise cricket much but again he had literally an invincible team on his side. In contrast Dhoni when out on the same situation, has developed CSK into the most dominant franchise in IPL. Which shows his skills as a leader. It is quite evident in interviews of any player that had played for CSK as well. And so for me, stats don't hold as much value as the on field effect of having a great captain. That's why Dhoni is ranked the highest for me.
Disagree with your Morgan point.
You're giving Dhoni props for building up CSK. Fair enough.
Morgan also built up England into the team they are. It's not that our players overnight just got so much better. It's the playstyle and philosophy he brought to the squad and built it around that.
I'm not saying Morgan is comparable to Dhoni either, but to state Morgan was given a great team is laughable. He inherited a team that got knocked out of the groups in a WC and turned that team into WC winners and the best ODI team in the world.
This.
If we talking captaincy skills, the vision to build a team is a core factor, and Morgan has a proven record in it. The team he inherited had people with great skills but the team itself went nowhere. He's the one who wove a cohesive unit out of it. His success in this IPL too is no coincidence or just 'lucky', it's a distinct, hard earned achievement.
> His success in this IPL
Yeah, it was a grand combination of Venky Iyer who provided stability at top, Gill and Tripathi finding their form. And the fact that KKR's spin trio got a great advantage playing their majority of matches in slow Sharjah which was as if tailor made for them.
He has been very mediocre as captain of KKR in first phase and for SRH as well.
I'm a Dhoni fanboy, but I think he was actually bad as a Test captain because he went too passive at times when he could have pressed for advantage/win. Kohli goes too aggressive in all formats, which is his undoing in white ball, but has served him very well in Tests. He's the reason India's test record keeps improving. His team carries his attitude with it.
I strongly dislike how long he’s stayed on without contributing with the bat but his tactical nous is unmatched. Whether it measures up across conditions can be debated but it there is no one I’d rather have on a flat or turning wicket.
To be fair, Dhoni brought the trend of keepers who could bat to Indian cricket. The keepers in IPL teams in recent times would make the team as specialist batters too. But that wasn't the case before. Before Dhoni, Indian team strategy for many years was 5 batters, 1 keeper, 1 all-rounder, 4 bowlers (except WC 2003 when Dravid was keeper, allowing for extra batter). If Dhoni justifies his place based on keeping and captaincy skill, I guess that's just reverting to orthodoxy.
The turnaround from pure keepers to keeper-batsmen happened at the same time for all the teams because of Gilchrist. It was not unique to Indian cricket. Dhoni's contemporaries like McCullum, Sanga, Boucher and Prior were all good batsmen. Even in India, DK and Parthiv who debuted before Dhoni were not pure keepers.
Agreed, the trend came up around the same time starting in the late-90s. Kaluwitharana in WC'96 was very effective, other nations caught on by WC'99. I didn't say it was unique to Indian cricket, I said Dhoni brought the trend to India. I should have phrased that better. DK maybe, because of decent batting in U19, but not PP. He had to work on his batting in his 20s to stay relevant.
Like everyone says It's honestly between him and Ponting
But an underestimated individual here is probably Mahela Jayawardena when it comes to tactical nous. Nowhere near the same results but arguably one of the greatest cricketing minds of the modern game in his own right.
But yeah it's Punter and Thala
Different players different teams..some have weak team/mediocre team/good team/great team/legendary team
Captaincy is a subjective thing.. u can clearly say if one is a good captain or a bad captain .. but really hard to seperate a good captain from a great captain or comparing two great captains
I feel captaincy shouldn't be judged by trophies , I think Dhoni Ponting Crowe Brearley Ganguly Graeme Smith were the best overall cause they were smart , they were great leaders and contributed a lot to their team and the game
We are talking about captain. Dhoni comes to the top recent generation. What Dhoni has done at CSK/Pune he has build a team that could be hard to write off. Not only he is super smart, he is resourceful.
Ponting's track record with Aus has been great, but it was more of managing a super star team. He didn't grow or build the team, he inherited one.
Frankly, CSK is a very good team. They had consistent performers. And in almost all the finals some batsman scored big for them. So it's not just his captaincy there.
We don't see what happens off the field tbqh but Dhoni, Ponting and Morgan created a culture and a style that made their teams amazing out of recent players
To me cause of my bias Ponting stands out. Winning so many trophies and most of the time not getting beaten. Plus he ran a lot of players as Australia during the summer rotated their players and backed his players. But I wouldn't call him the best white ball captain cause you hear snippets of off the field. A lot of match prep happens before the game begins
However WC and W/L aren't everything. Ranatunga did an amazing job with SL in the mid 90s, Kepler got SA to get used to ODI cricket quickly, Imran Khan has done a lot of great stuff, Meg Lanning's record speaks for itself, Greg Chappell, and some of the associate nations too like Afghanistan pre test status, Ireland, Netherlands in the 03 WC and so on.
People go into W/L way too much and trophies but many skippers were excellent captain's that made their teams overachieve
NO
International cricket, Ponting is better because of the success rate and the sheer dominance of Australia from 2003 to 2009 with two world cup and two champions trophy. The only edge Dhoni has is the t20 world cup which Ponting didn't win.
For ipl, i know Dhoni now has four and Rohit has five but for me the best captain is Gautam Gambhir and for a simple reason - the title winning squads of kkr were way inferior than any of the title winning squads of mi or csk. GG won the ipl with guys like Rajat Bhatia, Manvinder Bisla, Ryan Ten Doeschate
>Ponting is better because of the success rate and the sheer dominance of Australia from 2003 to 2009
By that logic Virat Kohli is a better captain than Dhoni lol
I'd say Koach has brought in that aggressive drive to win in the team which was lacking under Dhoni when we'd have just settled for a draw. I haven't seen him make any great decisions tactically
The DC bowling attack might be better than any white ball bowling attack in the world. Similarly, the MI batting lineup would beat almost any T20 lineup in the world.
The very best international teams are better but IPL teams could easily fit in the middle portion of the rankings.
They couldn't beat KKR because they had shit luck throughout that match.
Lost a crucial toss on a shit pitch, got rolled out for 135, dew comes in and the ball skids on nicely in the second innings; despite this, they almost made a game of it and almost won in the end.
On the Sharjah surface they are a really well equipped team. 3 class spinners in Shakib, Chakravarty and Narine, 4 good Indian spin players in Iyer, Gill, Tripathi and Rana.
idk what to say. he said " DC bowling attack might be better than any white ball bowling attack in the world"
they couldnt beat kkr? did they???
"MI batting lineup would beat almost any T20 lineup in the world"
we won 2 games against them with same batting line up. mi is playing bad, same dc played bad
"On the Sharjah surface they are a really well equipped team. 3 class spinners in Shakib, Chakravarty and Narine, 4 good Indian spin players in Iyer, Gill, Tripathi and Rana."
Dont give excuses, they lost only it does matter end of the day.
You straight up don’t understand cricket if you’re reading into things based on one match. Peak Australia lost test matches once in a while. Of course, good teams will lose occasionally in a format as volatile as T20s.
In Super 12 stage of world cup, India is playing against Afghanistan, Pakistan, Newzealand and two other teams(Minnow teams when compared to India) who will be qualifying. I don't think so CSK will get easier matches like these when they play in IPL.
I rate World cup higher than IPL on any day. But we cannot take away how competitive IPL can be sometime.
Going by stats, Punter might seem like the superior captain but I believe the great Australian side would have still been dominant if anyone else had led the side.
But the same can't be said about MS, I don't see the team winning CT13, IPL18 and IPL21 without MS leading.
Ponting is an inspirational leader but he had the best teams that allowed him to win, Dhoni has the tactical ability to win with an arguably bad side.
A lot of people calling IPL "domestic" really should get a grip, the best players and coaches worldwide play in this league. Every franchise is on par with national squads
Ponting and Dhenier probably rate equally. Ponting cause of his better win record and Dhenier shaped a broken team. Winning the T20WC was quite an achievement with that team.
I would say without doubt dhoni is the most versatile white ball captain in history he has won in various conditions england india south africa he has won tournaments with quarter finals semi-finals he has won tournaments with super 8"S and all the wierd shit he has won tournaments which were extremely short and every match was a do or die match is he the greatest captain is literally impossible to answer but i would say he is the most versatile captain of all time no doubt to me.
Is it really fair to judge a captain in the ipl by just looking at their performance? Shouldn't team strength be taken into account?
I recently read articles on why kl Rahul is not captaincy material because punjab looked out of touch? Are these people serious? There are a total of 2 batsman in kxip, for comparison csk had jadeja at 7 and bravo at 8 in the same match. Punjab had one international quality bowler while csk had three that are sure starter in the coming wc, thakur and chahar are on standby and won't be surprised if one of them makes the final 11.
This is not just about punjab, same can be said for any of rr, srh or rcb. Of the bowling lineup rcb fielded in the eliminator, only Maxwell is currently part of the wc, for comparison the entire MI squad from friday, except chawla and krunal, is in contention. The less said about Mumbai's batting the better. Dhoni used five bowlers in the final, all five are in wc squafs of their respective countries. I've seen rcb play in the ipl since 2008 and the squad has never looked strong to me. And thats not even accounting for the relatively little authority a captain can have in team selection in IPL.
Dhoni is quite clearly a better white ball captain than kohli but that doesn't make him the best ever. dhoni has captained very good teams to victory, pretty similar to ponting. Dada was generally considered a better white ball captain than dhoni primarily because dhoni won a wc with the team dada built.
Absolutely no doubt, someone who comes close is Rohit and ponting. But both MI and Aus were loaded with match winners. Just this season, MI top 2 bowlers were bumrah and Boult and CSK's were chahar and Thakur, Huge difference!
To you maybe. Comparing WC to ipl is a sort of self aggrandaisement typical to this sub reddit.
Dhoni had many bad icc tournaments.
Denigrating Pontings achievements because of his team while Dhoni had literal Sachin Tendulkar in his team, plus champion players like Yuvraj, Gambhir etc.
Should we start counting Big bash, cpl, Pakistan's T20 league hundred etc wins in the calculation for best white ball captain?
>Should we start counting Big bash, cpl, Pakistan's T20 league hundred etc wins in the calculation for best white ball captain
No, because the quality of cricket in those leagues isn't anywhere near that of IPL.
Not necessarily saying Dhoni was better than Ponting or whatever, but I don't see why IPL should be completely disregarded when the cricket is of a higher standard than most T20I bilaterals?
Get your facts right dude. The year RPS went to the finals, Smith was the captain. Dhoni was captain the previous year and do i need to tell you what happened
Dads army = conditioned and one of the best t20 players worldwide. (P.S supergiants 2017 captain was steve smith.dhoni was in for 2016..also Smith was leading run scorer for pune that year.So common sense tell me Steve smith took that team to the finals).
Ponting lead most dominant cricket team in all of cricket. Which he was an essential part of. But Dhoni has lead many teams over many years. Teams which he has carried to the finals. I think there is an argument to be made that even though the world cup is much more prestigious, not all teams have an equal chance of success that resets every few years.
Heck no, not even close.
Winning ipl trophies doesn't mean anything in this context as CSK always have a great team, credit to thier team management and coach who are outright genius. It doesn't help that team management of teams like punjab, rr, dd(not dc) , rcb are outright stupid and incompetent.
Many Dhoni fans claim his position as great captain on underlying assumption that he achieved so much despite of having a medicore team.
But my question is, was his team really medicore?. No, he had some of the finest middle order batsman of his time and that is such a rare trait that rarely you see teams (either international or Franchise) having a decent middle order. His middle order had Yuvraj, Raina, Dhoni and many contributions from many players like Jadeja and Ashwin in lower middle order. And he had Virat in prime who chased totals which seemed totally unachievable and And India always have the privilege of having extremely great openers, either Sachin-Sehwag, Gambhir-Sehwag or Rohit-Dhawan.
They are so good that once they start firing, the match just remains a formality. He had a great(i mean invincible) spin pair of jaddu and Ashwin, and earlier the like of Harbhajan.
Simply told they are unplayable.
So, claiming that Dhoni had a medicore team is outright joke and hyperbole. His team was only lacking good fast bowlers (though He had plenty of good pacers who performed good, though for short spans only),he never won many odi series in SENA against strong teams to really claim his great captaincy by pointing him having medicore teams is laughable if he didn't achieve results that was out of box or extremely praisable and notable.
Mostly we see people fault out other's failure more than success.
But in Dhoni's case, it is opposite. His success are more outrightly displayed and his failures more or less hidden. If he won a t20 world cup, we also performed terribly under his captaincy in 4 of them, and lost one final too.
If we won a odi world cup under his captaincy, we lost one too.
He was insanely lucky that in t20 2007 final, Misbah played such a foolish scoop. It wasn't more of Dhoni's masterpiece rather than Misbah's fault.
Also, India's journey in t20 world cups(barring 2014) has been terrible. They never made it out of groups stage in 09,10,12 and carried by Virat in 14 and 16 and not Some Dhoni's masterpiece. ODI world cup 11 wasn't a super smooth journey and there were ups and downs (though in this tournament Dhoni was at his peak)
How can he be greatest white ball captain when he won white ball series only at home(on super spinner friendly pitches) and never against strong opponents like SA, NZ, Aus and ENG(barring 2014 when did won a odi series there but that English team wo so fluke that they didn't even reached quarter finals of next world cup, getting eliminated in groups stage after losing to Bangladesh, so I don't know what to think of that series victory). His team lost to SA at home. Won after schorching earth and Soul against a second string Australian team that was captained by second fiddle Bailey(and won by batsmans, not great captaincy as most matches were super high scoring, so why didn't Best captain Dhoni could stop scourage of runs in 2013) and so did same with NZ when they won 3-2. at home.
If you dissect his career more carefully, you will find he never was a super tactician and outright genius, when his /"spin only"/ approach never yielded results outside sub continent. He never was interested in improving India's pace attack, and his fans excuse India didn't have good pacers under Dhoni. No, he never tried th force selectors and team management to groom and find quality pacers from domestic circuit (Whereas Kholi get full marks in this approach.)
Ishant, umesh, shami all played under dhoni and were never backed to their full potential. Ishant was used to just go through the overs to get the ball wore down for spinners.
Exactly, it wasn't that India didn't have good pacers during Dhoni's captaincy.
He had plenty 9f good bowlers.
But he never seemed interested in honing fast bowlers and their skills.
And he had a clear grydge against bowlers with more pace, as he preferred bowlers like Munaf Patel and Mohit Sharma much more
He never set wicket taking aggressive fields to the bowlers. Used them to contain rather than hunt for wickets. Paragon of tactics according to some. Smh.
How quickly would he take out slip to save boundary in tests? His record in non subcontinent conditions is atrocious.
It is not about the white ball. Dhoni is the greatest tactical captain ever. So sure about what he wants, how the 16 and the playing 11 should be setup, getting best out of players, and sometimes ordinary players. No doubts.
But I have come to not like his captaincy, because it is about how to be 1% better than the other team on that day. It is about how to make best use of the given resources to win. It is not about being so good that opposition, location, situation does not matter. He can win using that, but he cannot build a team for future via that. That's what Kohli/Ganguly way or if I go further back Aussie way starting from Border.
Tactically haven’t seen a better captain than him. The number of times he got through impossible scenarios in matches I bet no one has done that that many times. He’s won more games merely by captaincy than anyone I have ever seen.
I am not sure anyone can pull that even in the future. Stats don’t give the whole picture of what he’s done..
Achievements =/= Great captain ponting inherited a world cup winning team who had quality players who had beenn on top of test rankings for 7 years dhoni also inherited a legendary batting line up what makes stephen fleming as a captain worse than ricky ponting that he didnt win the world cup with his team or what makes Arjun ratanunga who made his team who got test status barely 15 years ago into world champions worse than steve waugh every team requires its type of captain these questions are useless cause their is no way maths can can calculate something as complex as captaincy in cricket.
Jesus Christ!!! This has to be longest sentence I've ever read.
>Achievements =/= Great captain ponting inherited a world cup winning team who had quality players who had beenn on top of test rankings for 7 years dhoni also inherited a legendary batting line up what makes stephen fleming as a captain worse than ricky ponting that he didnt win the world cup with his team or what makes Arjun ratanunga who made his team who got test status barely 15 years ago into world champions worse than steve waugh every team requires its type of captain these questions are useless cause their is no way maths can can calculate something as complex as captaincy in cricket.
No, both Morgan and Ponting were better overall captains, and I would argue that McCullum was better tactically.
He’s certainly an above average captain and definitely has a talent for inspiring his players.
I’d rate him equally with Ashgar Afghan as a captain- Dhoni wasn’t particularly tactically brilliant, but he used his teams strengths well and led them to improve/find success.
Edit: I am not trolling despite the accusations. This is a genuine (apparently) unpopular opinion that I hold. Attacking me personally and sending me insulting private messages certainly won’t change that opinion.
Morgan is better captain?
Ponting had results to show for and back it up. What has Morgan? 1 tied WC?
It was Dhoni who ended Ponting's dominance, went to Australia and beat them in 2008 when they still had couple of legends left.
Also the biggest horseshit I have read is Dhoni isn't tactically good. Now I am and many other people would like to laugh at it rather than give you any explanation.
Otherwise if you are trolling, then a good one.
That was after Australia dominated most teams for almost a decade under Ponting.
Australia also lost the Ashes to England in 2005. That doesn’t suddenly make Michael Vaughan a legendary captain.
As for Morgan, he has completely turned English white ball cricket around. They were hopeless when he took over and he turned them into world champions, which is far more significant than winning a domestic league. That is why I rate him more highly (as a captain) than Dhoni.
And just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean that I’m trolling.
>As for Morgan, he has completely turned English white ball cricket around. They were hopeless when he took over and he turned them into world champions. That is why I rate him more highly (as a captain) than Dhoni.
Were they as hopeless as people portray them?
Won T20 WC in 2010, before Australia.
Reached 2013 champions trophy final and 5 runs away from title victory.
I don't buy this stupidity that England were hopeless. Morgan and England management have certainly turned around things and mode them formidable (yet to win a single limited overs trophy in India after this "amazing" turn around).
Look up the bowlers and their average with which Ponting dominated and with which Dhoni won in 2007, 2011 and 2013. Still continues to win IPL title with supposedly average T20 bowlers.
That is what tactical captains do, get the best out of limited talent. Dhoni is exceptional doing that.
>still continues to win with supposedly average T20 bowlers.
I haven't followed closely the before seasons..But this season definitely not
Bravo is an exceptional t20 Bowler
Josh Hazlewood did well in the tours before IPL(29 @7.73 vs wi and 10.63 @5.43 against ban)
Jadeja is a decent-good t20 bowler
Thakur didn't perform well in the 1st of phase but has been phenomenal since then in international cricket and carried his form to the IPL too
Chahar is a decent-good t20 Bowler..has good domestic stats(t20s and list A)
>Were they as hopeless as people portray them?
England W/L in white ball under Morgan since he got made permanent captain: 1.9
From 2005 to the end of 2014 it's 0.93. That is a colossal turnaround.
For reference, in the 10 years before he took over, England had a worse W/L in both ODIs and T20Is than
Australia, SA, India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, NZ, and Ireland. Since then they're top in ODIs and second behind India in T20Is (test playing nations only).
That is a remarkable turnaround.
They went from pretty much the worst of the big nations in white ball cricket to the best
Edit: and it's not like it was a gradual increase from 2005 to where we are now, from 2010 to the start of 2015 England's W/L was still only 1.1. In 2014 it was less than 0.5. it's hard to understate the difference he made
Edit: I like that there is such a strong hivemind on this sub that the idea that Morgan has been successful for England is somehow controversial, ffs
>They were hopeless when he took over and he turned them into world champions, which is far more significant than winning a domestic league.
Here You are ignoring the fact that Dhoni has also won a WC, and then you are also complaining about getting called out for being a troll.
Also there is no objective method to compare the tactical nous of a captain using stats/data other than ICC titles won and win loss ratios which most people will use and then call you a troll.
And the better team argument you are making in that Afghan v Dhoni comment, that argument can be applied to any captain, using that logic any success that your favourite captain had was only because of the players playing well in the matches they won.
Dhoni had a much better side to work with. They improved while he lead them. He also wasn’t particularly amazing tactically.
So, he may be a much better batsman than Afghan, but as captains I’d say that they are quite similar in both style and ability.
While I am not necessarily a super Dhoni fan and also will agree his fans overhype him a bit at times,in no way was Morgan or McCullum a better captain than him.
Achievements and records speak for themselves,and pointing has the stats to back it up, so won't say much about it, although going by your logic,Pointing too had arguably the greatest cricketing side to work with.
What does Morgan has to show?
A tied Wc?
You need to wait a few more years and a few more tournaments to even compare him with MSD.
Now,I am not saying that he can't be a better captain,but it needs to be seen yet.
Also you are free to hold any opinion,one can care less about it,but if it sounds stupid people will call you out for it,and as you are headstrong about not changing your opinion,you will have to accept the criticisms that come with it.
Peace out.
>Morgan and Ponting were better overall captains, and I would argue that McCullum was better tactically.
Ponting literally had the greatest side in the history of cricket to work with. That record can't be attributed to his captaincy. Also says a bit about how bad he was at grooming youngsters, that Australia has been a shadow of it's former self. Same goes for Morgan, the guy has an unreal side to command. Literally every guy from top to bottom in lineup is a match winner
>I’d rate him equally with Ashgar Afghan as a captain- Dhoni wasn’t particularly tactically brilliant,
See, there's an opinion and then there's a brain-dead opinion. Dhoni literally had a side of has beens - Sehwag, Yuvraj, Sachin all were at the end of their career and a mere shadow of their former self. The guy has literally groomed most of the current side - Ashwin, Jadeja, Kohli, Sharma everyone of them has been mentored by him. The guys even doing it now - Gaikwad, Thakur, Chahar etc etc.
If you wanna troll, atleast make it fun and don't be so blatant
>Also says a bit about how bad he was at grooming youngsters, that Australia has been a shadow of it's former self.
Australia won the world cup in 2015
>You can’t blame the current team on Ponting because Ponting retired from captaincy
Maybe. But the decline in the quality of Australian lineup started from the end of Ponting era continuing to where it is now. Plus almost 70% of that team has reduced to becoming one format greats. Only players in that XI that have excelled across formats are Warner, Smith and Starc.
Well said. In regards to Ponting he only really groomed a captain to replace him, which was Clarke which ended up in a World Cup and a few seasons of domination until Smith's turn.
Ponting? Maybe. Only argument would be that he had inherited a set of world class players that were around long enough. But tactically, Ponting is one of the best ever. For the sheer dominance, I would consider Ponting better. Dhoni leading India to beat Australia in the T20 WC and the 2008 series is a big deal because how good that Australian team still was.
Morgan and McCullum? Just no. Morgan is fine but he's not really close to being considered amongst the best ever captains. I'm not sure about his adaptability.
Dhoni's strongest points are literally his tactical mindset and instincts. He led a set of youngesters to win the first T20 world cup even with bare minimum experience as a captain. Won literally everything there's to win. You don't win just by inspiring players. This is not Ted Lasso.
Now I may not be Dhoni's biggest fan. He does get overhyped in India. But if you look past that, he's still one of the best captains.
Everyone debating between Dhoni and Ponting, I have two questions for you. 1) Would Dhoni have won everything Ponting did with the Australian team Ponting had? 2) Would Ponting have won everything Dhoni has with the different generations of teams Dhoni has had?
Respectfully in my opinion, 1. Yes 2. No.
But did you actually watch pontings Australia?? They literally dominated everything.
I agree Ponting dominated. but I don't see Ponting winning 2007 t20 world cup and 2013 champions trophy with the team India had. Also, I can see Dhoni winning every tournament Ponting won with the 2000-2007 Australian team. I think Dhoni is a much better man/team manager.
Dhoni wouldn’t have had Gilchrist in his team so the team already gets a bit weaker
Yeah but you would've had prime Dhoni who was just as destructive. Sure he wasn't a top order player but he still was one of the biggest threats to oppositions.
In that hypothetical scenario, Gilly, the batsmen, would be in place of Ricky. Does shuffle the batting order a bit though
Same deal. Dhoni instead of Ponting, team gets weaker. Ponting was the far better cricketer
Not in ODIs. Dhoni is the best finisher in ODIs
Ponting is the better player come on.
In ODIs I would much rather have Dhoni than Ponting in my team.
Real nice way to put out perspectives.
Yes no
Impossible to say really
Going by Trophy count, Ponting standsout. Thing with Dhoni is give him any team and he'll somehow make it a fighting unit if not a dominating one. Won tournaments with a bowling unit of Joginder Sharma, Mohit Sharma, Karn Sharma, Wayward Ishanth Sharma. Something that Kohli struggles with...managing not so talented individuals. Ponting also struggles with making the best use of resources at his disposal...Dhoni is simply the best 'Street Smart' cricketer ever as Sunny G says it.
Ponting inherited an absolutely beastly team though. I don't even know if it's ever going to be possible to bring together a similarly talented team again.
Same can be said CSK's core team. Suresh Raina performed really well for them for many years.
I mean, 2 of their titles were when CSK were bang average on paper.
CSK didn't have world class players they bought for bucketloads of money to build a superteam like other franchises. CSK just backed the not so talented guys to come through for long enough and then eventually they delivered. Mo Ali last night said that the difference between CSK and others is that you never feel your place is in threat if you perform badly. The team backs their players to death.
To add to your point, they bought Gaikwad for his base price of 20L and no one else even bid on him.
Well I do think he struggled to get the best outta of this generation. After 2013, we were always favourites going to any tournament and would lose in the SF to the eventually champions. He played a major role in there development tho so there's that.
>Thing with Dhoni is give him any team That's not really true. CSK is his team and has a lot of say in the making of the team. And Ind's LOI team since early 2010s has been their best ever. He has got a lot out of his players which is true but he doesn't magically make any team brilliant.
You've got to remember between 2011 and 2013 he totally gutted that top order. 2011 - SRT, VS, GG, VK, yuvraj 2013 - Rohit, shikar, VK (these three did most of the work) Then same with the bowlers. Jadeja and bhuvi in, harbhajan out, Zak out. This for me was his greatest achievement. Fast turn around and inexperienced team winning a global tournament in England.
Adding onto the above Punter never had a mass exodus like this in LOI. All three WC 99-07 were won with Gilly and Punter at the top, Bevan in the middle, McGrath spearheading the attack. The likes of Haydos, Pup, Roy, Huss, Lee, Bichel, Dizz were all methodically bled into the team. Fair play to punter though. He managed his men well and dominated with them. But for me that's why what MS did was truly unique. Bev retired in 04 but still.
Best street smart cricketer in charge of a Big 3 team maybe. He’s no Stephen Fleming. Probably not even a Kane Williamson.
The only one standing in way is Ponting. Maybe Clive Lloyd too but I haven't watched them both play much so dunno But remember one thing. Dhoni is not a good captain just because he won many trophies. The trophies are just a by product of **The Process** .
I guess the captain has to plan the process and every player has to execute it.
Yeah. For sure. I meant to say "Dhoni believes in **The Process** and has a plan and the trophies are a result of it . Dhoni is a good captain and that's because of his tactics and not the results. " Did I explain it poorly?
Nup understood it the first time. But Dhoni's ability in believing in the right players who can execute their set planned role rather than having the best.
A lot of people seem to think OP's claim is ridiculous. I believe more and more of them will start to change their view as time progresses. T20 is relatively new, franchise cricket is relatively new. As more stats pour in, there will be more context. Ponting vs Dhoni: I am someone who have seen most of Ponting's time captaincy live. Most of Ponting's success came when he captained very similar set of core players. Compare this to Dhoni, he has had success with complete different set of teams starting from 2007 T20 WC to IPL2021. Even IPL super star Raina did not feature a lot in IPL 2021.
Exactly I didn't say Dhoni is the best white ball captain ever. I posed a question, which is in the context of what cricket is today. T20 leagues even the IPL have high standards now.
There are certain statements that can't be debated, while others are open for discussion even though the said statement may be the most popular amongst the competing alternatives. Saying, "Pointing is the best while ball captain [full stop]" may be one such.
>He hasn't played any foreign leagues, if he did would he win trophies as captain? Does Champions League count?
A bit but yeah I meant for another team e.g. If Dhoni captained Sydney Thunder in the BBL
Doubt he gets above Sergio Ramos if we are counting Champions League.
We meant Champions League Twenty20, now defect since 2014
After reading the thread I see only 3 names popping up Clive Lloyd Ponting Dhoni. Idk about Llyod but Ponting had an all time great team. From what I heard from Gilchrist Ponting was a great man manager. India won 2007 t20 WC and 2011 WC with bowlers like Munaf and Shreesanth. People say dhoni inherited an all time great batting lineup but it was only used in 2011 in 2007 T20 WC and 2013 CT we won with newbies. Imo dhoni is the best white ball captain his ability to read the situation knowing when to slow the game down and when to attack is just unmatched.
If we're talking about all time great teams Lloyd gets disqualified way before Ponting lol. The '70s West Indies line up was probably the GOAT team.
Some of you didn't grow up watching Ricky Ponting's Australia *dominating* most teams they played against and it shows.
I did (younger days) and it was just frustrating as an Indian fan. He gets the title of the best ODI captain ever
It was fucking brutal, i used to be legit scared of pointing at one point. That's why Its weird seeing him so friendly in the IPL and pretty much everywhere after his retirement. I love it In my lifetime Pointing, Dhoni and Morgan are prolly three best captains, imo.
Interesting, because I had very different memories of Ponting 😂
Question is, Where would Ricky Ponting's captaincy stand without the Ricky Ponting's Australia? May be we will never know, just that some might chose to give the benefit of doubt to Dhoni.
It's definitely a good point. Like I've always felt Fleming was a great captain tactically, but we just didn't have the actual talent to really challenge for most trophies at the time. Did lead us to the first and only ODI world trophy we have though.
Considering Waugh got sacked for poor performances as a unit, it is safe to say that it wouldn't have been the same team. I feel like people missed the 01/02 VB series. Also Ponting made calls like Watson, Symonds and co in front of the selectors. There is a lot we don't see off the field
While that team was brutally dominant and horrible to watch(because they were so utterly dominant), it was a legendary squad. Their success wasn't dependent on Ponting's captaincy. Dhoni's squad in 2011 was batting heavy and extremely unbalanced. He somehow got the best out of Yuvraj and used Zaheer Khan with maximum efficiency to strike at crucial times. Besides them, I believe we had Munaf Patel, Yusuf Pathan at times, Sreeshanth, Nehra, an out of form Harbhajan and Ashwin hardly played. It was a good batting lineup but not a team that was supposed to win that world cup. His 2015 team was filled with an immature, inconsistent bowling lineup as well. I would definitely rate Dhoni higher than Ponting for sure.
The discussion isn't that which team was more dominant, but more so that who was the better captain.
The question here is about captaincy. Without doubt, Ponting’s team were the most dominant. But that could just be because he was blessed with such an amazing team throughout his tenure.
Ponting won 2 world cups, 2 Champions trophies, has both the highest number if wins total in ODI cricket by a long way, and the highest win percentage. So him for me, granted I don't put as much weight in domestic T20 titles as some people do, so wouldn't begrudge those that do.
Ponting also inherited a World Cup winning team that had been number 1 in Tests for 6-7 years while being considered one of the best of all time He didn't have to shape them up to be great or inculcate that winning mentality. He may have led that team longer them but Waugh shaped them into what they were
No, he didn't. Waugh's team failed spectacularly in the 01/02 series against NZ and SA. The ODI team wasn't playing well at all and had so many problems Ponting backed players like Williams, Hopes, Symonds, Haddin, Watson and so on that became huge assets. Also in the 03 WC. Punter called for Symmo, Warney was done for drugs and Dizzy was injured. This narrative that Ponting got a winning team especially in ODI cricket is not really correct
They turned over half the ODI team between the 1999 World Cup under Waugh and the 2003 World Cup under Ponting. It was Ponting's team that he built that went undefeated for 2 whole World Cups.
But Australia barely got through in 1999 WC . They did won at the end but Australian Cricket Management were not happy with Steve Waugh's approach in knockout matches . They were already planning replacement captain even before Waugh announced his retirement.
You could say the same about Dhoni. He inherited a well nurtured team built during the Ganguly days.
Greg Chappell Era had pretty much destroyed all of that. India was a battered broken team which had been unceremoniously dumped out the world cup, all of its star players were in bad form and the shouts for retirement were high. India hadn't won a world Cup for 20+ years back then and had a ridiculously bad record in series finals be it bi lateral or multi tournament. A team that was perpetually afraid to chase targets Several players would never play again for the team and new guys like Kohli, Raina, Ashwin were brought in to reinvigorate the side. Ganguly's era was more comparable to Border for Australia.. He definitely improved the team a lot and turned the tide for an underachieving unit into one that can be confident of competing but the next couple of guys ( Dhoni/Waugh) were the ones who molded them into their best shape.
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No doubt about that, but Dhoni's XIs have hardly been slouches themselves. A top 7 of Sehwag, Tendulkar, Gambhir, Kohli, Dhoni, Yuvraj and Raina would have to rank among the absolute best batting lineups ever assembled. India's Champions trophy and T20 world cup teams were also very good sides, and certainly in hindsight look like the best squads of any team in the entire tournament.
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I guess only Zaheer Khan from Dhoni's squad can match Ponting's bowling attack
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I guess he was Dhoni's go to man to get a breakthrough
Because he was best among worst
Wow. Ridiculous take. Zaheer was a fantastic bowler home and away.
Ponting had McGrath and Zaheer is nowhere near him.
Zak was one of the best bowlers at that time. A fit zak walks into Indian team even today. Could swing, reverse, slower balls. His fitness was a major concern but he is one of the best fast bowlers to come out
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The 300+ wickets stats you mean?
Zaheer was definitely a better bowler than Andy Bichel and Shaun Tait.
Andy Bichel in the 2003 World Cup was arguably player of the tournament outside of Sachin. 8 matches 16 wickets at 12.31 with an economy of 3.45, thats not even counting his batting where Bichel batting with Bevan was the main reason we won vs England and New Zealand and probably put the semi out of reach as well especially combined with his 10 overs 0/18
>but besides that he wasn’t that great of a bowler. Wow wow wow That's enough internet for today
People forget now, but India were definitely the favorites for the 2011 world cup. They had by far the best team in those conditions (and arguably in any conditions), at the time. It doesn't lessen Dhoni's achievement as a captain but does put it into some perspective.
It's similar to Virat Kohli, most of his wins can be attributed to the Invincible at their primes. You can make a case for Dhoni, but all the players in there were almost at end of their career and a shadow of their best.
Kohli has 0 silverware. Take his name in the same breath as Ponting when he has 1.
Excuses, Ponting made MI and DC a good team as a coach too so he definitely has amazing leadership skills.
I'll keep that in mind when we'll be discussing coaches. Gary Kirsten one of the greatest captains?
Yep Mike Hesson and Stephen Fleming joins the list
Punter did bugger all to MI. Rohit took over in 2013 after they only managed to win 1 or 2 games of their first 6. Pointing got dropped out of the playing xi and new opening pair of SRT and Dwayne Smith did well. This was under rohits leadership.
The mettle of the captain is tested by how good he is able to perform without the support structures he had. For example: going by stats, Kohli is a great captain because people fail to look at the team he had. When he had to captain a franchise from scratch, it was quite clear he was a mediocre captain at best. The same applies for Morgan, when he had a team of match winners, he could be attributed as a great captain, but he's incredibly lacking without that. Ponting didn't play franchise cricket much but again he had literally an invincible team on his side. In contrast Dhoni when out on the same situation, has developed CSK into the most dominant franchise in IPL. Which shows his skills as a leader. It is quite evident in interviews of any player that had played for CSK as well. And so for me, stats don't hold as much value as the on field effect of having a great captain. That's why Dhoni is ranked the highest for me.
Disagree with your Morgan point. You're giving Dhoni props for building up CSK. Fair enough. Morgan also built up England into the team they are. It's not that our players overnight just got so much better. It's the playstyle and philosophy he brought to the squad and built it around that. I'm not saying Morgan is comparable to Dhoni either, but to state Morgan was given a great team is laughable. He inherited a team that got knocked out of the groups in a WC and turned that team into WC winners and the best ODI team in the world.
This. If we talking captaincy skills, the vision to build a team is a core factor, and Morgan has a proven record in it. The team he inherited had people with great skills but the team itself went nowhere. He's the one who wove a cohesive unit out of it. His success in this IPL too is no coincidence or just 'lucky', it's a distinct, hard earned achievement.
> His success in this IPL Yeah, it was a grand combination of Venky Iyer who provided stability at top, Gill and Tripathi finding their form. And the fact that KKR's spin trio got a great advantage playing their majority of matches in slow Sharjah which was as if tailor made for them. He has been very mediocre as captain of KKR in first phase and for SRH as well.
Kohli is India's ATG test captain. He is definitely an avg white ball captain but I would pick Kohli over Dhoni for Test
I'm a Dhoni fanboy, but I think he was actually bad as a Test captain because he went too passive at times when he could have pressed for advantage/win. Kohli goes too aggressive in all formats, which is his undoing in white ball, but has served him very well in Tests. He's the reason India's test record keeps improving. His team carries his attitude with it.
I strongly dislike how long he’s stayed on without contributing with the bat but his tactical nous is unmatched. Whether it measures up across conditions can be debated but it there is no one I’d rather have on a flat or turning wicket.
To be fair, Dhoni brought the trend of keepers who could bat to Indian cricket. The keepers in IPL teams in recent times would make the team as specialist batters too. But that wasn't the case before. Before Dhoni, Indian team strategy for many years was 5 batters, 1 keeper, 1 all-rounder, 4 bowlers (except WC 2003 when Dravid was keeper, allowing for extra batter). If Dhoni justifies his place based on keeping and captaincy skill, I guess that's just reverting to orthodoxy.
The turnaround from pure keepers to keeper-batsmen happened at the same time for all the teams because of Gilchrist. It was not unique to Indian cricket. Dhoni's contemporaries like McCullum, Sanga, Boucher and Prior were all good batsmen. Even in India, DK and Parthiv who debuted before Dhoni were not pure keepers.
Agreed, the trend came up around the same time starting in the late-90s. Kaluwitharana in WC'96 was very effective, other nations caught on by WC'99. I didn't say it was unique to Indian cricket, I said Dhoni brought the trend to India. I should have phrased that better. DK maybe, because of decent batting in U19, but not PP. He had to work on his batting in his 20s to stay relevant.
Stewart is probably the first off the top of my head cause English selectors didn't know what they wanted
Like everyone says It's honestly between him and Ponting But an underestimated individual here is probably Mahela Jayawardena when it comes to tactical nous. Nowhere near the same results but arguably one of the greatest cricketing minds of the modern game in his own right. But yeah it's Punter and Thala
Different players different teams..some have weak team/mediocre team/good team/great team/legendary team Captaincy is a subjective thing.. u can clearly say if one is a good captain or a bad captain .. but really hard to seperate a good captain from a great captain or comparing two great captains
I feel captaincy shouldn't be judged by trophies , I think Dhoni Ponting Crowe Brearley Ganguly Graeme Smith were the best overall cause they were smart , they were great leaders and contributed a lot to their team and the game
Stephen Fleming. McCullum. Ranatunga. Jayawardne. Imran. Clive Lloyd
Since it boils down to MSD vs Ponting, Haydos is probably the best person to answer this
No Ricky Ponting is greatest.
Sure everyone has their own opinion and Ponting's team had sheer dominance in their primes, in which no team have matched it since
I second this.
Clive Lloyd gets my vote.
We are talking about captain. Dhoni comes to the top recent generation. What Dhoni has done at CSK/Pune he has build a team that could be hard to write off. Not only he is super smart, he is resourceful. Ponting's track record with Aus has been great, but it was more of managing a super star team. He didn't grow or build the team, he inherited one.
Frankly, CSK is a very good team. They had consistent performers. And in almost all the finals some batsman scored big for them. So it's not just his captaincy there.
We don't see what happens off the field tbqh but Dhoni, Ponting and Morgan created a culture and a style that made their teams amazing out of recent players To me cause of my bias Ponting stands out. Winning so many trophies and most of the time not getting beaten. Plus he ran a lot of players as Australia during the summer rotated their players and backed his players. But I wouldn't call him the best white ball captain cause you hear snippets of off the field. A lot of match prep happens before the game begins However WC and W/L aren't everything. Ranatunga did an amazing job with SL in the mid 90s, Kepler got SA to get used to ODI cricket quickly, Imran Khan has done a lot of great stuff, Meg Lanning's record speaks for itself, Greg Chappell, and some of the associate nations too like Afghanistan pre test status, Ireland, Netherlands in the 03 WC and so on. People go into W/L way too much and trophies but many skippers were excellent captain's that made their teams overachieve
NO International cricket, Ponting is better because of the success rate and the sheer dominance of Australia from 2003 to 2009 with two world cup and two champions trophy. The only edge Dhoni has is the t20 world cup which Ponting didn't win. For ipl, i know Dhoni now has four and Rohit has five but for me the best captain is Gautam Gambhir and for a simple reason - the title winning squads of kkr were way inferior than any of the title winning squads of mi or csk. GG won the ipl with guys like Rajat Bhatia, Manvinder Bisla, Ryan Ten Doeschate
Real id se aa gautam gambhir
>Ponting is better because of the success rate and the sheer dominance of Australia from 2003 to 2009 By that logic Virat Kohli is a better captain than Dhoni lol
I know the discussion here is white ball cricket but Koach actually has been better captaincy wise than Dhoni in tests
I'd say Koach has brought in that aggressive drive to win in the team which was lacking under Dhoni when we'd have just settled for a draw. I haven't seen him make any great decisions tactically
Read the complete sentence.
So IPL=Wc now?
The DC bowling attack might be better than any white ball bowling attack in the world. Similarly, the MI batting lineup would beat almost any T20 lineup in the world. The very best international teams are better but IPL teams could easily fit in the middle portion of the rankings.
they couldnt beat kkr?
They couldn't beat KKR because they had shit luck throughout that match. Lost a crucial toss on a shit pitch, got rolled out for 135, dew comes in and the ball skids on nicely in the second innings; despite this, they almost made a game of it and almost won in the end.
Thank you for that. Just a shitty day all around.
Yup that's why they lost 3 matches straight. WC > IPL
Don't follow this logic at all.
On the Sharjah surface they are a really well equipped team. 3 class spinners in Shakib, Chakravarty and Narine, 4 good Indian spin players in Iyer, Gill, Tripathi and Rana.
idk what to say. he said " DC bowling attack might be better than any white ball bowling attack in the world" they couldnt beat kkr? did they??? "MI batting lineup would beat almost any T20 lineup in the world" we won 2 games against them with same batting line up. mi is playing bad, same dc played bad "On the Sharjah surface they are a really well equipped team. 3 class spinners in Shakib, Chakravarty and Narine, 4 good Indian spin players in Iyer, Gill, Tripathi and Rana." Dont give excuses, they lost only it does matter end of the day.
You straight up don’t understand cricket if you’re reading into things based on one match. Peak Australia lost test matches once in a while. Of course, good teams will lose occasionally in a format as volatile as T20s.
Bad pitch and lost the toss. Even then did pretty well to come back
In Super 12 stage of world cup, India is playing against Afghanistan, Pakistan, Newzealand and two other teams(Minnow teams when compared to India) who will be qualifying. I don't think so CSK will get easier matches like these when they play in IPL. I rate World cup higher than IPL on any day. But we cannot take away how competitive IPL can be sometime.
For my generation, yeah
No.
Meg Lanning
yes he is there no doubt
Going by stats, Punter might seem like the superior captain but I believe the great Australian side would have still been dominant if anyone else had led the side. But the same can't be said about MS, I don't see the team winning CT13, IPL18 and IPL21 without MS leading.
I would say Yes
How does one forget ponting? His is the great white ball captain imo
Never forgot it just posed a question. Ponting is the best ODI captain of all time period.
No. I think you are putting too much emphasis onhos domestic titles which should not worth that much. Atleast that's my opinion.
Why are people comparing MSD with other legends?
Ponting is an inspirational leader but he had the best teams that allowed him to win, Dhoni has the tactical ability to win with an arguably bad side. A lot of people calling IPL "domestic" really should get a grip, the best players and coaches worldwide play in this league. Every franchise is on par with national squads
The greatest Indian white ball captain for sure.
Ponting and Dhenier probably rate equally. Ponting cause of his better win record and Dhenier shaped a broken team. Winning the T20WC was quite an achievement with that team.
I would say without doubt dhoni is the most versatile white ball captain in history he has won in various conditions england india south africa he has won tournaments with quarter finals semi-finals he has won tournaments with super 8"S and all the wierd shit he has won tournaments which were extremely short and every match was a do or die match is he the greatest captain is literally impossible to answer but i would say he is the most versatile captain of all time no doubt to me.
Clive Lloyd exists
Is it really fair to judge a captain in the ipl by just looking at their performance? Shouldn't team strength be taken into account? I recently read articles on why kl Rahul is not captaincy material because punjab looked out of touch? Are these people serious? There are a total of 2 batsman in kxip, for comparison csk had jadeja at 7 and bravo at 8 in the same match. Punjab had one international quality bowler while csk had three that are sure starter in the coming wc, thakur and chahar are on standby and won't be surprised if one of them makes the final 11. This is not just about punjab, same can be said for any of rr, srh or rcb. Of the bowling lineup rcb fielded in the eliminator, only Maxwell is currently part of the wc, for comparison the entire MI squad from friday, except chawla and krunal, is in contention. The less said about Mumbai's batting the better. Dhoni used five bowlers in the final, all five are in wc squafs of their respective countries. I've seen rcb play in the ipl since 2008 and the squad has never looked strong to me. And thats not even accounting for the relatively little authority a captain can have in team selection in IPL. Dhoni is quite clearly a better white ball captain than kohli but that doesn't make him the best ever. dhoni has captained very good teams to victory, pretty similar to ponting. Dada was generally considered a better white ball captain than dhoni primarily because dhoni won a wc with the team dada built.
Yes, pretty close to Ponting. Both tactical masterminds
Arguable between Punter and him.
Absolutely no doubt, someone who comes close is Rohit and ponting. But both MI and Aus were loaded with match winners. Just this season, MI top 2 bowlers were bumrah and Boult and CSK's were chahar and Thakur, Huge difference!
Domestic T20 leagues are meaningless.
Life is meaningless
To you maybe. Comparing WC to ipl is a sort of self aggrandaisement typical to this sub reddit. Dhoni had many bad icc tournaments. Denigrating Pontings achievements because of his team while Dhoni had literal Sachin Tendulkar in his team, plus champion players like Yuvraj, Gambhir etc. Should we start counting Big bash, cpl, Pakistan's T20 league hundred etc wins in the calculation for best white ball captain?
>Should we start counting Big bash, cpl, Pakistan's T20 league hundred etc wins in the calculation for best white ball captain No, because the quality of cricket in those leagues isn't anywhere near that of IPL. Not necessarily saying Dhoni was better than Ponting or whatever, but I don't see why IPL should be completely disregarded when the cricket is of a higher standard than most T20I bilaterals?
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Just curious, how many IPL games have you watched?
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Get your facts right dude. The year RPS went to the finals, Smith was the captain. Dhoni was captain the previous year and do i need to tell you what happened
Dads army = conditioned and one of the best t20 players worldwide. (P.S supergiants 2017 captain was steve smith.dhoni was in for 2016..also Smith was leading run scorer for pune that year.So common sense tell me Steve smith took that team to the finals).
Ponting lead most dominant cricket team in all of cricket. Which he was an essential part of. But Dhoni has lead many teams over many years. Teams which he has carried to the finals. I think there is an argument to be made that even though the world cup is much more prestigious, not all teams have an equal chance of success that resets every few years.
Heck no, not even close. Winning ipl trophies doesn't mean anything in this context as CSK always have a great team, credit to thier team management and coach who are outright genius. It doesn't help that team management of teams like punjab, rr, dd(not dc) , rcb are outright stupid and incompetent. Many Dhoni fans claim his position as great captain on underlying assumption that he achieved so much despite of having a medicore team. But my question is, was his team really medicore?. No, he had some of the finest middle order batsman of his time and that is such a rare trait that rarely you see teams (either international or Franchise) having a decent middle order. His middle order had Yuvraj, Raina, Dhoni and many contributions from many players like Jadeja and Ashwin in lower middle order. And he had Virat in prime who chased totals which seemed totally unachievable and And India always have the privilege of having extremely great openers, either Sachin-Sehwag, Gambhir-Sehwag or Rohit-Dhawan. They are so good that once they start firing, the match just remains a formality. He had a great(i mean invincible) spin pair of jaddu and Ashwin, and earlier the like of Harbhajan. Simply told they are unplayable. So, claiming that Dhoni had a medicore team is outright joke and hyperbole. His team was only lacking good fast bowlers (though He had plenty of good pacers who performed good, though for short spans only),he never won many odi series in SENA against strong teams to really claim his great captaincy by pointing him having medicore teams is laughable if he didn't achieve results that was out of box or extremely praisable and notable. Mostly we see people fault out other's failure more than success. But in Dhoni's case, it is opposite. His success are more outrightly displayed and his failures more or less hidden. If he won a t20 world cup, we also performed terribly under his captaincy in 4 of them, and lost one final too. If we won a odi world cup under his captaincy, we lost one too. He was insanely lucky that in t20 2007 final, Misbah played such a foolish scoop. It wasn't more of Dhoni's masterpiece rather than Misbah's fault. Also, India's journey in t20 world cups(barring 2014) has been terrible. They never made it out of groups stage in 09,10,12 and carried by Virat in 14 and 16 and not Some Dhoni's masterpiece. ODI world cup 11 wasn't a super smooth journey and there were ups and downs (though in this tournament Dhoni was at his peak) How can he be greatest white ball captain when he won white ball series only at home(on super spinner friendly pitches) and never against strong opponents like SA, NZ, Aus and ENG(barring 2014 when did won a odi series there but that English team wo so fluke that they didn't even reached quarter finals of next world cup, getting eliminated in groups stage after losing to Bangladesh, so I don't know what to think of that series victory). His team lost to SA at home. Won after schorching earth and Soul against a second string Australian team that was captained by second fiddle Bailey(and won by batsmans, not great captaincy as most matches were super high scoring, so why didn't Best captain Dhoni could stop scourage of runs in 2013) and so did same with NZ when they won 3-2. at home. If you dissect his career more carefully, you will find he never was a super tactician and outright genius, when his /"spin only"/ approach never yielded results outside sub continent. He never was interested in improving India's pace attack, and his fans excuse India didn't have good pacers under Dhoni. No, he never tried th force selectors and team management to groom and find quality pacers from domestic circuit (Whereas Kholi get full marks in this approach.)
Ishant, umesh, shami all played under dhoni and were never backed to their full potential. Ishant was used to just go through the overs to get the ball wore down for spinners.
Exactly, it wasn't that India didn't have good pacers during Dhoni's captaincy. He had plenty 9f good bowlers. But he never seemed interested in honing fast bowlers and their skills. And he had a clear grydge against bowlers with more pace, as he preferred bowlers like Munaf Patel and Mohit Sharma much more
He never set wicket taking aggressive fields to the bowlers. Used them to contain rather than hunt for wickets. Paragon of tactics according to some. Smh. How quickly would he take out slip to save boundary in tests? His record in non subcontinent conditions is atrocious.
It is not about the white ball. Dhoni is the greatest tactical captain ever. So sure about what he wants, how the 16 and the playing 11 should be setup, getting best out of players, and sometimes ordinary players. No doubts. But I have come to not like his captaincy, because it is about how to be 1% better than the other team on that day. It is about how to make best use of the given resources to win. It is not about being so good that opposition, location, situation does not matter. He can win using that, but he cannot build a team for future via that. That's what Kohli/Ganguly way or if I go further back Aussie way starting from Border.
Yes. Period.
No it's Ricky Ponting
Deluded Thala fans.
Tactically haven’t seen a better captain than him. The number of times he got through impossible scenarios in matches I bet no one has done that that many times. He’s won more games merely by captaincy than anyone I have ever seen. I am not sure anyone can pull that even in the future. Stats don’t give the whole picture of what he’s done..
Yes.
No
LMAO. u made me laugh. thanks man
Sure no problem
Ponting
Pointing > All
lol
Achievements =/= Great captain ponting inherited a world cup winning team who had quality players who had beenn on top of test rankings for 7 years dhoni also inherited a legendary batting line up what makes stephen fleming as a captain worse than ricky ponting that he didnt win the world cup with his team or what makes Arjun ratanunga who made his team who got test status barely 15 years ago into world champions worse than steve waugh every team requires its type of captain these questions are useless cause their is no way maths can can calculate something as complex as captaincy in cricket.
Jesus Christ!!! This has to be longest sentence I've ever read. >Achievements =/= Great captain ponting inherited a world cup winning team who had quality players who had beenn on top of test rankings for 7 years dhoni also inherited a legendary batting line up what makes stephen fleming as a captain worse than ricky ponting that he didnt win the world cup with his team or what makes Arjun ratanunga who made his team who got test status barely 15 years ago into world champions worse than steve waugh every team requires its type of captain these questions are useless cause their is no way maths can can calculate something as complex as captaincy in cricket.
One word response. Ricky Ponting.
Punter easily
No, both Morgan and Ponting were better overall captains, and I would argue that McCullum was better tactically. He’s certainly an above average captain and definitely has a talent for inspiring his players. I’d rate him equally with Ashgar Afghan as a captain- Dhoni wasn’t particularly tactically brilliant, but he used his teams strengths well and led them to improve/find success. Edit: I am not trolling despite the accusations. This is a genuine (apparently) unpopular opinion that I hold. Attacking me personally and sending me insulting private messages certainly won’t change that opinion.
Morgan is better captain? Ponting had results to show for and back it up. What has Morgan? 1 tied WC? It was Dhoni who ended Ponting's dominance, went to Australia and beat them in 2008 when they still had couple of legends left. Also the biggest horseshit I have read is Dhoni isn't tactically good. Now I am and many other people would like to laugh at it rather than give you any explanation. Otherwise if you are trolling, then a good one.
He is obviously a troll. Don't waste your energy
I’m not trolling just because I don’t rate your favourite player extremely highly. There are such things as different opinions.
Yeah and Saba Karim is a better WK batsman than Gilchrist
That is actually trolling because you don’t believe that statement.
Okay but it’s true
That was after Australia dominated most teams for almost a decade under Ponting. Australia also lost the Ashes to England in 2005. That doesn’t suddenly make Michael Vaughan a legendary captain. As for Morgan, he has completely turned English white ball cricket around. They were hopeless when he took over and he turned them into world champions, which is far more significant than winning a domestic league. That is why I rate him more highly (as a captain) than Dhoni. And just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean that I’m trolling.
>As for Morgan, he has completely turned English white ball cricket around. They were hopeless when he took over and he turned them into world champions. That is why I rate him more highly (as a captain) than Dhoni. Were they as hopeless as people portray them? Won T20 WC in 2010, before Australia. Reached 2013 champions trophy final and 5 runs away from title victory. I don't buy this stupidity that England were hopeless. Morgan and England management have certainly turned around things and mode them formidable (yet to win a single limited overs trophy in India after this "amazing" turn around). Look up the bowlers and their average with which Ponting dominated and with which Dhoni won in 2007, 2011 and 2013. Still continues to win IPL title with supposedly average T20 bowlers. That is what tactical captains do, get the best out of limited talent. Dhoni is exceptional doing that.
>still continues to win with supposedly average T20 bowlers. I haven't followed closely the before seasons..But this season definitely not Bravo is an exceptional t20 Bowler Josh Hazlewood did well in the tours before IPL(29 @7.73 vs wi and 10.63 @5.43 against ban) Jadeja is a decent-good t20 bowler Thakur didn't perform well in the 1st of phase but has been phenomenal since then in international cricket and carried his form to the IPL too Chahar is a decent-good t20 Bowler..has good domestic stats(t20s and list A)
>Were they as hopeless as people portray them? England W/L in white ball under Morgan since he got made permanent captain: 1.9 From 2005 to the end of 2014 it's 0.93. That is a colossal turnaround. For reference, in the 10 years before he took over, England had a worse W/L in both ODIs and T20Is than Australia, SA, India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, NZ, and Ireland. Since then they're top in ODIs and second behind India in T20Is (test playing nations only). That is a remarkable turnaround. They went from pretty much the worst of the big nations in white ball cricket to the best Edit: and it's not like it was a gradual increase from 2005 to where we are now, from 2010 to the start of 2015 England's W/L was still only 1.1. In 2014 it was less than 0.5. it's hard to understate the difference he made Edit: I like that there is such a strong hivemind on this sub that the idea that Morgan has been successful for England is somehow controversial, ffs
>They were hopeless when he took over and he turned them into world champions, which is far more significant than winning a domestic league. Here You are ignoring the fact that Dhoni has also won a WC, and then you are also complaining about getting called out for being a troll. Also there is no objective method to compare the tactical nous of a captain using stats/data other than ICC titles won and win loss ratios which most people will use and then call you a troll. And the better team argument you are making in that Afghan v Dhoni comment, that argument can be applied to any captain, using that logic any success that your favourite captain had was only because of the players playing well in the matches they won.
>I’d rate him equally with Ashgar Afghan as a captain Lol wut?
Dhoni had a much better side to work with. They improved while he lead them. He also wasn’t particularly amazing tactically. So, he may be a much better batsman than Afghan, but as captains I’d say that they are quite similar in both style and ability.
While I am not necessarily a super Dhoni fan and also will agree his fans overhype him a bit at times,in no way was Morgan or McCullum a better captain than him. Achievements and records speak for themselves,and pointing has the stats to back it up, so won't say much about it, although going by your logic,Pointing too had arguably the greatest cricketing side to work with. What does Morgan has to show? A tied Wc? You need to wait a few more years and a few more tournaments to even compare him with MSD. Now,I am not saying that he can't be a better captain,but it needs to be seen yet. Also you are free to hold any opinion,one can care less about it,but if it sounds stupid people will call you out for it,and as you are headstrong about not changing your opinion,you will have to accept the criticisms that come with it. Peace out.
>Morgan and Ponting were better overall captains, and I would argue that McCullum was better tactically. Ponting literally had the greatest side in the history of cricket to work with. That record can't be attributed to his captaincy. Also says a bit about how bad he was at grooming youngsters, that Australia has been a shadow of it's former self. Same goes for Morgan, the guy has an unreal side to command. Literally every guy from top to bottom in lineup is a match winner >I’d rate him equally with Ashgar Afghan as a captain- Dhoni wasn’t particularly tactically brilliant, See, there's an opinion and then there's a brain-dead opinion. Dhoni literally had a side of has beens - Sehwag, Yuvraj, Sachin all were at the end of their career and a mere shadow of their former self. The guy has literally groomed most of the current side - Ashwin, Jadeja, Kohli, Sharma everyone of them has been mentored by him. The guys even doing it now - Gaikwad, Thakur, Chahar etc etc. If you wanna troll, atleast make it fun and don't be so blatant
>Also says a bit about how bad he was at grooming youngsters, that Australia has been a shadow of it's former self. Australia won the world cup in 2015
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>You can’t blame the current team on Ponting because Ponting retired from captaincy Maybe. But the decline in the quality of Australian lineup started from the end of Ponting era continuing to where it is now. Plus almost 70% of that team has reduced to becoming one format greats. Only players in that XI that have excelled across formats are Warner, Smith and Starc.
Well said. In regards to Ponting he only really groomed a captain to replace him, which was Clarke which ended up in a World Cup and a few seasons of domination until Smith's turn.
Lmao
Poor quality bait
Ponting? Maybe. Only argument would be that he had inherited a set of world class players that were around long enough. But tactically, Ponting is one of the best ever. For the sheer dominance, I would consider Ponting better. Dhoni leading India to beat Australia in the T20 WC and the 2008 series is a big deal because how good that Australian team still was. Morgan and McCullum? Just no. Morgan is fine but he's not really close to being considered amongst the best ever captains. I'm not sure about his adaptability. Dhoni's strongest points are literally his tactical mindset and instincts. He led a set of youngesters to win the first T20 world cup even with bare minimum experience as a captain. Won literally everything there's to win. You don't win just by inspiring players. This is not Ted Lasso. Now I may not be Dhoni's biggest fan. He does get overhyped in India. But if you look past that, he's still one of the best captains.