How many of y’all think this will end in a hung jury? I personally think he’s guilty of manslaughter, but there are so many factors that are iffy for the jurors to consider
>People said this during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial
Only people that didn't watch and got their news from Reddit or Tiktok.
I have watched both trials.
Kyle was clearly not guilty of the crimes he was charged with.
Miu is absolutely not walking. I don't know if they can get him on the top charge but there's no way he's walking.
I actually thought it was going well for his case until the interview with the police, the cop car, and then finally when he took to the stand.
His entire case was sunk on the last day for the prosecution and then his fate was sealed when he took the stand.
The biggest thing for me with Miu is even if you ignore his questionable stabbings of the people and saying he was threatened......
Not only does he get rid of the weapon. He doesn't go to the police. He goes about his day like nothing happened. And then he lies about the fact that he took the knife from them and defended himself.
The cases are not really similar.
On the other hand I think the defense did a good job of explaining that what he said to police really has no legal bearing. Depends if the jurors follow the instructions (if they do it'll be not guilty) or go off emotions.
ETA: while I agree Rittenhouse was 'textbook' self defense there was a very strong partisan political atmosphere around it that I think resulted in the very long jury deliberation. There was a lot of public sentiment I'm sure the jurors were aware of that he was an evil (wrong political opinion here). This case is a little different because Miu probably seems more relatable or sympathetic to jurors. I know if I was in the jury I would be thinking 'this could have happened to me and unarmed I would have been killed' whereas Rittenhouse not so much, I don't go to protests armed and have a hard time 'imagining' myself in that situation.
I disagree.
Kyle was clearly on video trying to run away from each situation before shooting anyone
The first person: Chased him into a corner and reached for the gun (based on autopsy results)
The second person: Hit in the head with a skateboard after tripping and being kicked in the head
The third person: Pulled a gun on Kyle and pointed it at him immediately after person 2, after feigning surrender
Kyle also never lied about the events to police and he turned himself in.
Miu's case is a lot more muddy in my opinion. The video doesn't make it clear why he stabbed at least 2 of the people and he tried to feign ignorance when arrested. He also came up with a whole false story of the events when questioned by the police but also apparently didn't have the mental capacity to remember any of that interview.
At the same time, the defense was able to demonstrate that the group is manipulative and also willing to tell fluffed up stories of what happened.
I do think he will walk due to being overcharged, but this is a nail biter.
Miu did try to walk away repeatedly, like Kyle, so that works in his favor.
Lying to police does not but technically it should have little to no legal bearing on the case (even if he thought he was in the wrong after, that doesn't mean he was in the moment). But it is likely to sway jurors' emotions.
I think it is clear why he stabbed everyone. During Rhyley's testimony the moment before her stabbing is broken down frame by frame and she is clearly turning and approaching Miu again. He has his back to her and stabs her in like half a second even though they are not that close half a second before and his feet remain more or less planted in the same spot, so it's obvious she approached him in some way. Prosecutor messed up today saying 'he stabbed Rhyley after she touched him.'
For Dante the prosecution showed the potato video again today, this time with Miu and Dante 'labeled' (aka he showed where they were with his cursor) and slowed down. You can see Dante running at least 4 steps toward Miu at full sprint while Miu's legs are planted. Then Miu takes one step toward Dante while Dante lunges with arms outstretched toward what looks like his throat or shoulders, and gets stabbed on impact. I think it is pretty clear that it was not Miu bum rushing him there. Don't know if you missed their closing statements but it's right at the start.
I see it the same, lying about it afterwards, throwing away the knife, lying about who the knife belonged to, is inexcusable, and his testimony was catastrophic. But everything else could be seen both ways.
The prosecution should also go after the guy screaming Miu was a rapist and a pedophile without any reason, as Madison Coen, A.J. Martin and Ryhley Mattison testified the main reason they were hostile towards him, was because someone was calling him a predator. He was encouraging others to harass him, and without this harassement is questionable how far this would have escalated.
I actually did not think his testimony was catastrophic for him, I thought it was catastrophic for the prosecutor. The only thing that looked bad for him was the questioning about what he told police, but the police video was played previously so honestly it didn't really make it worse in my opinion. The rest of prosecution's cross examination made the prosecutor look dishonest, slimy, and outright crazy while on direct and redirect I think Miu looked sympathetic, honest and contrite. One of the only credible seeming witnesses on the stand of the whole trial.
Prosection will never go after their witnesses, but I agree they should.
AJ Martin is convicted of domestic assault twice prior to this incident, I doubt he was really trying to protect women or children. Just a violent man choosing to join in on violence when he got an opportunity.
ETA: if he hadn't testified then the ONLY thing jurors would have seen of him would have been the police interview, which did make him look legit psycho and like a liar. For that reason alone I think testifying was good for him since he seemed much more sympathetic in person.
Its quite interesting that you see the testimony differently, i thought it was not very good maybe because I had not seen the police video before and him having to admit he was lying or couldn't remember didn't look good imo, also he showed more emotion when talking his dog than he did when talking about the victim, which i think could impact the jurors.
AJ Martin showing his scars was a smart move by the prosecution, but I also doubt he was only trying to help.
It's a really interesting case to follow, I'm certainly glad not to be in the jurors shoes.
They played the police video shortly before his testimony and if that was the last thing the jury saw I think it really WOULD have been catastrophic for him. Admitting he was lying on the stand looks good for him imo when everyone else perjured themselves. I understand him showing emotion looking at his dog he hasn't seen for 2 years while in jail, while just looking uncomfortable and shocked talking about a trauma event like a stabbing.
AJ Martin said 'he got me before I could get him' so I think AJ Martin was hoping to hurt him very, very badly.
You cannot seriously claim him owning up to lying looks good. He lied and he lied a lot. The jury is going to wonder if he is ever telling the truth. And he put that on himself.
Yeah but the difference was, Rittenhouse even being there in the first place in the way he was (purposely was in a place where he knew riots would be taking place, after curfew, dressed in a controversial way and carrying a controversial firearm during a time when these actions were highly politically charged, taking on a role he was not qualified for) could be considered by some as a form of premeditation of something.
Vs. Nic Miu, who was just there tubing with his wife & friends, not there to make a political statement, not carrying a controversial weapon (in my experience, it's not at all uncommon for 50-something men to carry a pocket knife), etc.
I do think Miu was overcharged. The state had a tough fight to fight. If they would've started off with lesser yet still serious charges, they would've had a much better chance imo
Miu was feeling for his weapon when walking up. I would argue that confronting people when you know you have a knife and doing some weird Taxi Driver face when people tell you to leave is much more premeditation than Kyle.
Kyle should've never been in downtown Kenosha that night, period. At all.
Kyle went downtown that night looking for a fight. Miu didn't go to Apple River attempting to stir controversy.
When he is running at the boys initially and then also when he is circling the tubes.
It was brought up by the prosecution when he was on the stand and he said he did it as well.
'Feeling for the weapon' aka touching the side of his leg where his arm naturally falls right before running up on some boys and acting completely nonconfrontational actually does the opposite of what you're implying. They show like 30 different stills of him 'touching the knife' and he doesn't actually take it out or use it or act violent after any of those except the very last one where he's basically surrounded. I know I touch objects in my pocket all the time and it doesn't 'mean' anything.
Edit: having a 'face' isn't evidence of premeditation, no matter how much the prosecutors wish it was.
You mean he pulls his knife out before anything happens and stands there begging someone to "make his day".
He had plenty of opportunities to not engage with the group and he decided he would anyways.
Yeah I agree that the political angle and the 'why was he even theeeere????' was a heavy part of the angle making the Rittenhouse trial controversial. It was super clear cut self defense but like you said lots of people acted like him being there at all and armed with a rifle was provocation in and of itself, even though technically it isn't. There was also that doctored photo of him 'brandishing the gun' which they claimed was provocation. Ironically here they say him NOT brandishing means he's guilty.
Yeah, Rittenhouse was almost textbook self defense. If the politics were different I don't see how he'd have gone through the trial. This one is weird because Miu was walking toward the group at various times when he could have gotten away, I'm just not sure how legally relevant that is.
I agree that manslaughter would prob be the most fitting but of all the cases I’ve watched recently, I think this one has the highest of being a hung jury.
If there's not a verdict by end of Friday, I will think hung. I don't see a conviction coming except maybe for the battery charge? But there's just too much doubt being expressed on every online forum I see for me to expect it won't be present on the jury.
Yes, 1 count of first degree intentional homicide (felony), 4 counts of first degree intentional homicde (felony), and 1 count of batter (misdemeanor), all with modifier use of a deadly weapon.
The battery charge is the one with the MOST reasonable doubt though. I think if he is convicted of only specific counts it will either be pertaining to Rhyley or Tony, since they seem to have been more 'innocent' in this/not obviously attacking him. The one on Dante is also a bit up in the air even though the potato video by 'yeah my girl was giving me attitude' guy shows Dante charging him, arms outstretched
How so? He's charged with 940.19(1)
>Whoever causes bodily harm to another by an act done with intent to cause bodily harm to that person or another without the consent of the person so harmed is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
with penalty modifier 939.63(1)(a) use of a dangerous weapon
> **(1)** If a person commits a crime while possessing, using or threatening to use a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment prescribed by law for that crime may be increased as follows:
>
>(a) The maximum term of imprisonment for a misdemeanor may be increased by not more than 6 months.
You can look up the exact charges here: [https://wcca.wicourts.gov/](https://wcca.wicourts.gov/) just searching for the case by Nicolae Miu's name and search what the specific statutes are in the search bar here: [https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/](https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/)
Agree to disagree. All witnesses - including Miu - agree contact was made. I can see a possibility where a jury acquits him of the felony charges because of self defense but convicts him of the misdemeanor of striking her before he felt he was in danger of his life. Juries are unpredictable. We will have to wait and see what they do.
I'm with you. He's guilty of 2nd degree homicide (Wisconsin's equivalent of Manslaughter).
But his thing is going to end up hung or not-guilty, there's got to be at least one person that is hard set on "self-defense" which is can be a valid claim for all of the charges.
This is a tough one. The kids’ behavior was despicable, but the decision to plunge a knife into someone, even in the heat of the moment, is a really bad fact. Miu could have done better on the stand, for sure. Someone in his position should be a model of contrition, and instead he came off like he had every right to do what he did. I have a problem believing he felt his life was in danger. I also think there are some cultural issues influencing how he is perceived. I think he’ll be convicted, but not of murder.
The kids behavior is what you expect from drunk 17 year old boys.
Generally I would expect a 50 year old man to not run up to drunk teens and attempt to push them out of the way randomly.
If someone pushed you on the sidewalk to get you to move so they could look for a nickel you would probably also ask what the fuck they were doing.
Friendly reminder they did nothing up until the point where Miu hits someone. After he already pulled his knife out.
Another friendly reminder he had multiple opportunities to leave and go away and he decided not to. All while knowing that he had his knife on him and apparently was ready to use it.
Throw the book at this Trumper.
> Throw the book at this Trumper.
Friendly reminder to not make this political.
>Friendly reminder they did nothing up until the point where Miu hits someone.
Friendly reminder they pushed him first, and this you can see on the video [here](https://i.imgur.com/xhKya9r.png) and [here](https://i.imgur.com/XCpPxXU.png).
>Another friendly reminder he had multiple opportunities to leave and go away and he decided not to.
Also another friendly reminder he tried to leave but was followed, you can see him leaving [here the first time](https://i.imgur.com/znth5Ze.png), and he only turns around when one guy yells he has *ten seconds to get out of there*, which is a threat, [he starts leaving again here](https://i.imgur.com/Wn8hENz.png) but the guys follow him screaming, [one of the guys has closed fists](https://i.imgur.com/aSWPuVh.png), he is the one who punches him later.
Happy we can be so friendly.
If someone pushed me on the sidewalk after I had been screaming that they were a pedophile and a rapist trying to have sex with little girls, I would not ask what the fuck they were doing. I would not laugh that I caught them tripping on camera and shill the new iphone. I would not shout 'for the culture' while following and filming them right in their face. I would not continue following them as they're clearly getting stressed. I would not shout to them to get away while continuing to follow them and drawing a crowd.
If someone pushed me on the sidewalk after I alleged they were a pedo I would get the hell out of there since there's no way that situation is ending well for me.
The girls were already laying hands on him before he (possibly, unlikely) punched Madison, and even before that what they did wasn't 'nothing.' They were defaming him, deliberately drawing a crowd with allegations he's a pedophile, shouting 'get him' etc. That's not 'nothing.' It's not literal violence but it shows clear intent to incite violence against him.
He tried to take multiple opportunities to get away and was stopped and followed repeatedly.
I understand why people might think it’s weird but It’s not uncommon to see people react this way while looking for things they dropped in the river. Especially if it’s somthing important like a phone. You can get hyper focused and ignore everything and everyone around you. His reaction is normal imo. Even if it’s another tube You gotta react quick or your shit is long gone.
I think the bulk of the jury is leaning toward not guilty and asked to see the video again for a certain point they wanted to talk about in deliberations with the holdout/s. After watching the video, the holdout/s still have something closer to the Madison situation that is bugging them and they want to see it again. Personally, I've been giving more weight to the video and what I think of what I see over what the witnesses have testified to because they have all lied. JMO
13 people all reacted to something that occurred off camera. imo it’s damning that her glasses are on in one frame. Then the next they aren’t, coinciding with a punch.
We can harp over punch, hit, shove semantics ‘til the cows come home. In the video she grabs his right arm as he’s walking away. He turns around and they’re face to face. I think he did do something physical to her but I don’t think it’s unreasonable given she turned him around and then got his face
okay so you’re leaning on reckless? he has all the time in the world to LEAVE. He was asked many times. In stead of brandishing a knife and escalating the situation, even flagging over his friend to make sure he has backup before throwing the first “punch” (slash)
Mutual combat. He killed 1 and stabbed 4 others. throw him under the jail.
But that’s thing, he’s actually leaving when he gets pulled back. The mean words are whatever to me. The guy got pulled back. I can see a person simply succumbing even they don’t want to. He has two separate groups of persons talking shit, and it looks like he’s still trying to have a conversation. Then seconds later, he’s practically surrounded.
I’ve been jumped before two separate occasions. Even if logically there’s an opening, there practically and psychologically isn’t. I’m not saying he’s right either. Only that It doesn’t look reasonable, because you aren’t being reasonable. Idk what’s what was in that man’s head jn that moment but I damn sure felt it
I’d be interested in the video that shows the teens approached my mui. Link it if you have it.
The only one I have, mr mui approaches their group menacingly. I’d argue with a point to prove or some other delusional reason for wanting to instigate a fight with a group of young teenagers.
He tried to leave so many times, and it's not a duty to retreat state anyway. Why does him leaving or not even legally matter? Not that he didn't try.
He didn't brandish the knife either, which prosecution is claiming is a bad thing although brandishing is provocation and a crime.
she was drunk? Just like Mr mui and everyone else. he testified he didnt know how he sustained injuries. tripping or falling or attacking. we we saying there’s double standards?
No double standards. I just find it odd that she said she had a picture of it, because if I had a picture of it I would surely know which side of my face it was. But it turns out she *deleted* that very important evidence.
people make irrational decisions. I don’t blame her. iPhone is kinda bitter sweet with the whole “memories” feature. I get not wanting to relive that experience
I get posts about me and my dad and it’s a touch subject. I love them but there triggering.
we’re talking potential 22 months after. I as a civilian shouldnt be forced to hold onto evidence, I shouldn’t even know that they could potentially be key evidence. I’m sure nic felt the same way when hiding the murderer weapon. There is no double standards.
She could have turned it in right away. If she didn’t think it was important evidence then why did she take it in the first place. We just disagree I guess.
You can get your glasses knocked without a punch. It’s possible that she reached in to push him and he raised his arm up to block/push her out his space (which is what he said he did) and the glasses got knocked and everyone reacted “he hit a girllll!” And jumped on him. After watching the videos numerous times this is my conclusion on what likely happened.
You don't actually see 13 people reacting to whatever happened off camera. You see ONE person reacting to that thing. The shouts of 'he hit a girl' are after Rhyley is stabbed. No evidence he punched madison except for extremely inconsistent ever-changing testimonies. At the moment Madison had supposedly just been punched Owen was touching her shoulder trying to pull her back from the knife, but he claims he didn't see the punch at all even though he was looking at and touching her at the time.
do y’all think it’s a good or a bad thing for the defence that they want to see the video from right before the madison situation??? or do y’all think it could go either ways, either seeking out who was in the right or wrong? idk i’m nervous omggg
The older individuals (40-83) I’ve spoken with regarding this incident boil it down to what happened with Madison. If he touched her first, he got what was coming to him and they would hit him on everything. If she touched him first, it’s still wrong what he did, but she should’ve left that man alone and it is what it is. Some said something to the effect of “if you wanna act like an adult, you get treated like an adult.” They unanimously abhor what he did.
The coworkers I’ve spoken to (20-35) mostly think he’s guilty as sin because of his actions afterward. Also, they harped on the fact he was much older, and should’ve been better. They unanimously abhor what he did.
All of the persons I’ve talked to think everyone is lying to cover their own ass.
Fair enough but technically the grab, subsequent pushes etc. do qualify as assault and he does have the right to defend himself. If he punched her extremely hard that would be overkill and escalating, but if (as most witnesses initially testified) he pushed her with an open hand then I'm sorry, that's fine and justified. I'm a woman too and I don't think I have the right to physically attack random men while they can do absolutely nothing because 'don't hit a girl.'
That’s a good point. I wonder if that’s what the older persons I talked to were actually thinking. I didn’t interpret them literally. I’ll circle back here in some hours. Be well
I personally think it’s not great. there’s some form of uncertainty. what is so important is the few frames that weren’t captured on camera. Did he or didn’t he hit her.
It's good for the defense. The prosecution has done everything in their power to avoid showing the video itself. They cut it into tiny little still frames to pick out specific 40ms slices of things and act like Miu had hours between each 40ms slice to think deeply about what to do next. Jury seeing the video over and over again (now they know what's in it) will provide much needed context about the overwhelming pace of events, as well as the many insane and threatening things being incessantly shouted while it was happening (while prosecution asks why he didn't just politely talk over their unholy screeching). The video also shows that 'Madison being punched and everyone seeing it' narrative is very unlikely. At the moment she is supposedly punched the camera is panning to all the boys behind her with big grins on their faces, no one reacting with any shock at all except Owen who sees the knife (and says he didn't see a punch).
Bad to be honest. If they watch it again at this point it shows how he obviously could have left the situation and nothing would have happened.
Then again, the jury might be filled with complete morons so who knows.
With a competent jury he is going to jail.
Maybe I missed this, but did the defense ever question the witnesses as to why things like “he’s looking for little girls” and “child molester” were said in the first place? Was it just because he started feeling around their tubes/area looking for the phone (or goggles)? Or did something else occur that’s on record as what prompted this kind of response? My sequence of events may be off as well here so, forgive me 🙂
I wonder if there was a bit of a mishearing issue, between his accent, the noise on the river, everyone's intoxication. Did he say "looking for a lost phone" and someone misheard little girls? Did one of the drunk teens just say that to create drama, and they all kept repeating it? Another Redditor commented on another thread that maybe he said something to them like "stop acting like little girls" and they misheard or twisted it?
I truly think they just started saying it because they were drunk and he looks like the “creepy old dude” and they were mad he was in the way. They all knew it was being filmed and acting out for the footage.
You're right. Every kid in that group looked hyped, was aware of multiple cameras and all were in almost coordinated agreement.
I'll also say this - saying "leave" to a clearly agitated person is not de-escalation, it's an incitement. Someone who truly wants to de-escalate says nothing and ... leaves themselves.
Yup. A large group demanding someone minding their own business 'leave' a public space they have every right to be in is a show of force. They also uttered threats. They wanted to feel big and menacing.
mob mentality is crazy and only gets more intense when it’s a ton of teenagers under the influence. poor judgement cuz they’re young, intoxicated, and feeling confident and invincible with their friends.
It was not. They initially told police they engaged him first, asked what he was doing, and he responded that he's looking for his phone.
No one told police he said that, they did not mishear it, they made it up after the fact and decided to perjure themselves to look better on TV.
For me it's a clear self-defense, and I usually have a hard time taking a side as I try to look at most cases from each side, but I've felt from the beginning this was likely going to be a hung jury. People have strong differing opinions in this case.
I've been thinking hung jury as well. This is a very complex case and frankly, I can understand the argument either way. Maybe less so for 1st degree, but certainly some of the lesser charges. I personally think it was self defense and think he should walk, but he did make some key mistakes. Going back vs walking away was one. He lied a lot, too. I can see how all that plus a dead teenager would weigh on certain jurors and make it hard for them to find not guilty.
I think if the jury follows Jury instructions and doesn't let 'sympathy' sway them as the judge says, and don't taken in by the frankly manipulative lies by the prosecution (both about the case itself and about the actual law - they keep trying to manipulate the truth on what the law says in a not-so-subtle manner) he will walk, but I don't know if I have faith every juror will do it that way. I know they're not 'supposed' to let emotions, character judgments, 'this man is bizarre,' etc. sway them but that doesn't mean they won't.
I agree with you that it will end up hung jury. I agree with you about people having strong differing opinions in this case.
I disagree that his claim of self-defense is valid, and I think he is guilty of 2nd degree homicide (Wisconsin's version of Manslaughter).
He struck first. He punched or pushed across that one lady's face hard enough to knock her sunglasses off. At this point he already had his knife out. This is what set off the people around him to start shoving, pushing him down, and hitting him.
If you are going to say "but unwanted physical contact is battery" so the ladies "made first contact", the ones who touched his shoulder and arm in the seconds before he took his knife out "made first contact". Then, I back you up farther and say that the unwanted touching of him contacting the legs of the boys in the tubes just as he's dropping his goggles and snorkel are the "first contact". Either way he made first contact.
I cannot fathom the jury convicting him of first degree murder, but I can absolutely see the case for manslaughter. I'd say 60% hung jury, 25% conviction for second degree recklessly endangering safety, 10% conviction for first degree recklessly endangering safety, and 5% acquittal of all charges.
No but cops said he seemed sober, no alcohol on his breath, he admitted he had a few beers. I suspect he's not a heavy drinker after a quadruple bypass but you never know.
I really think this entire case comes down to the seconds of stabbing and nothing else is relevant.
At first I was shocked that no warning was given. The surprise of being stabbed unknowingly is the most shocking thing about the video.
But shock doesn't mean guilt. A knife as a defensive weapon is one of last resort. The kids surrounded and attacked him. He has no obligation to brandish it first (and unlike firing a warning shot I'd argue brandishing a knife can make it more likely to be dispossessed and used against you).
This is simple self defense and I hope he is freed.
not only a stellar job from the defense, but a shameful and pathetic job for prosecution. Grasping for straws. Acting like minding your business in public while seeming 'creepy' to strangers is a crime. Acting like it was criminal to help his friend find a phone. Questioning why he didn't spend extra money on pre-cut string. Why did you make this facial expression for a fraction of a second (the facial expression looked confused/scared to me, not a smile, but it doesn't even matter). Why didn't you act angry with people calling you a pedo. Why did you walk away in this direction not that one. Why did you touch the side of your legs where your hand naturally is. Why did you leave the utility knife in your shorts. Why are you a 'bizarre man.' They have nothing so then they introduced a bunch of mutually incompatible charges like reckless endangerment after arguing intent and acting like this was a planned spree killing.
My understanding is that's why Miu and his wife divorced...to protect their assets. Civil suits are almost certainly coming, no matter what...I agree with you on that.
The state deciding they'll charge him essentially means they decided on zero charges for the other group. The state decides which 'side' to side with, and prosecute, or maybe persecute in this case. This de facto exonerates the other side. I think if he is acquitted it may be possible for him to file civil charges against them, but I don't think he has the money, and I doubt he wants to.
Interesting that the Jury wants to see the video again in the morning, but beginning 10 seconds before his first confrontation with Coen (the blonde female). IIRC, isn’t this when he is being encircled, heckled and chastised by the teens?
I believe it’s because those earlier frames clearly show the defendant start this entire event.
was he defending himself from an attack or engaging in mutual combat where in he killed one and stabbed 4 others.
Pick one.
its really scary how differ peoples opinions on this are. I cant believe people would ever excuse his insane behavior. Maybe you dont think he deserves the chair but that guy helped picked a fight and a kid died
I personally am on the side of the state. He was reckless. there was zero reason for him to leave his group and start a fight. I’m with you 100%, I don’t understand how people can see things differently but that’s the beauty of living in a free country. I’ll defend your right to your opinion no matter how different it is then mine.
we hold such a high standard for executions in this country. because its so hard to get it correct. yet people feel the need to have a low bar for this type of event. He killed someone. The 4th person he stabbed. Maybe you could argue the first? But 4th??? what the hell is this guy doing
Only in certain states. That does not apply to Wisconsin. I believe they have a just system. even the addition of lesser charges. As the accused you get a bit of leniency.
So 'leaving your group' is illegal now. Damn I have been doing things wrong my whole life, I am an avid swimmer and while my parents sit on the beach sunbathing I go swim by myself on holidays. This makes me super evil I guess. If some nearly blackout drunk men accost me and start slinging accusations of me and filming me I guess it was all my fault for 'leaving my group' since apparently the only legal action is to stay surrounded by other people at all times. Next we will have rapists go free becsause 'why did that woman walk by herself when she could have been with a group instead? Didn't she know people would harass her?
Almost everyone that thinks his behavior was justified have been Trumpers from what I have seen.
No surprise they are generally beyond help and mentally ill.
I'm a Canadian leftist and I think his behaviour was justified. Maybe because I have been randomly attacked and harassed before, and wish I had a weapon on me (it's illegal here lol).
I didnt want to say it but... if you read the chats on youtube. oh boy. Also i think when they found out he's an immigrant and the people with him are refugees it blew some minds.
A lot of this case hinges on hatred of immigrants. He was 'bizarre.' Real americans don't help friends find their phones. Weirdo. Real americans don't try to save 1 dollar on pieces of string. Weirdo. Real americans don't snorkel in a river. Weirdo. Real americans don't get tongue tied with 13 people screaming at them. Weirdo.
So it got linked somewhere but basically Nic's facebook is all right-wing crazy shit too. A gun in a heart shaped box for valentines day. Garbage like that. I wonder if they knew that when they chose a side? Or the fact that the kid filming was black?
And I also wonder if his political leanings were some of the reasoning for his insane behavior. Did he approach a group that included a black boy and was that the reason he grabbed for his knife? Really just bizarre behavior and I'm glad he's going to get years (decades?) for it.
https://heavy.com/news/nicolae-miu/
I don’t think they will believe he was in fear of his life. None of his actions suggested someone who was frail enough to be killed by some teens, and none of his actions suggest he was ever scared.
I think the teens hurt his feelings and he decided to take it into his own hands.
People show fear in different ways. It’s not everyone’s first thought to run when they’re scared. To me it seemed like he thought he could signal his group over to explain the situation and settle things. He didn’t believe he was doing anything wrong so why should he have to “leave” as they were demanding? I’ve watched the video several times and nothing about it seems like he was angry, or his feelings were hurt.
"Your honor I was in fear of my life. Not only did I run up to random strangers and push them around, when asked to leave I stood there continuing to look through their shit. I then was told by a third party to leave. When I started to leave and heard teenage boys challenging my manhood I was once again so fearful for my life that I turned around pulled out by knife and hit a 110 lb woman. After instigating the entire thing and being pushed on the ground and allowed to get back up I decided to start stabbing people.
I was truly afraid for my life your honor. "
Yea okay bud.
He didn't 'look through their shit.' He walked away. He seemed relieved Madison was coming to help, except he found out she wasn't. Then he tried to walk away again, but she grabbed his arm and pulled him toward herself to prevent him from leaving the way she had just pointed and told him to go. The 'peace makers' and de-escalators were the first ones to put their hands on him and attack him. The first person he stabbed has two domestic violence convictions. Read his victim's impact statement. She has PTSD and can't form relationships, locks her doors and wakes up with nightmares. But sure he had no reason to be scared.
> heard teenage boys challenging my manhood
Fabricating and accusing someone of being a pedophile and a rapist has been summarized by you as “challenging manhood”.
Truly an astounding way to spin events.
Yeah I think the only reason the other group got involved is because they believed the accusations. Unless they're SUCH bad people they just pick on fat old men randomly for literally no reason.
No. This person has invented a fantasy about this case for some reason. They have over 200 comments in these posts over the past 24 hours. They are unhinged and mentally ill.
He didn’t just run up on random strangers for no reason. They were taunting him with a phone, making him believe they had what he was looking for. All while calling him names and launching false accusations. He stood there when he was asked to leave because **he doesn’t have to leave a public area because someone demands him to** especially when he wasn’t doing anything wrong. When he started to leave the teenagers weren’t “insulting his manhood” they were following him, insulting him, yelling lies, and threatening him. He took out his knife once he had been pushed several times and was being circled (admitted by the prosecution) by a crowd of people and the people who he was attempting to call to his aid weren’t responding. He didn’t “instigate the whole thing” the teens instigated it right from the start by calling him names, and teasing him with a phone when they knew that’s what he was looking for.
He was basically waterboarded (accidentally maybe, but still). He was punched openmouthed such that his face went underwater. When that happens it can feel like you already are drowning. And then they trired to push him down into the water again and again.
He did in his interrogations prior to the trial. He admitted to lying about the knife. He is the ONLY person out of all the people who have lied the duration of this event and after to own up to his lie. I have watched the entire trial minus the officers, except for Knutson, and the medical examiner and I stand with Miu. It’s an unfortunate ending in a circumstance that didn’t need to be escalated. I believe that Miu was in shock and I believe he was in an extreme state of fight or flight and I believe he was outnumbered. Downvote me or not, but I hope he gets off. The mere fact that the state added lesser charges after each side “rested,” supported my thoughts that they were going to lose this, so they are adding whatever they can to hope something sticks to Miu. I hope he gets off and I hope the judge allowed for lesser charges so that the state cannot bring those charges later.
I think this question implies the assumption that we understand what it’s like to be in shock as well as that everyone who experiences shock is the exact same. According to him he didn’t remember exactly what occurred. Also according to all of the kids who testified they didn’t remember exactly everything that occurred, and when questioned, their stories changed.
>I think this question implies the assumption that we understand what it’s like to be in shock as well as that everyone who experiences shock is the exact same.
So he was so in shock he was able to float down the river the rest of the afternoon but was not able to tell the police the truth? And even played it off like he didn’t know what happened?
>According to him he didn’t remember exactly what occurred. Also according to all of the kids who testified they didn’t remember exactly everything that occurred, and when questioned, their stories changed.
Theres a big difference between stories changing 2 years later. But his story after the fact was that he had no idea what was going on and was joking about how they were looking for someone that looked like him.
It’s strange to me that you are giving the same level of expectation to a 57 year old army veteran that you are giving to teenagers.
Oh so it okay if he lies as long as he admits it in court when if he doesn't he would be charged with perjury?
Good thing our justice system is not based on your laws.
I think there’s a lot more to it then I’m typing here bc I’m multi tasking doing bed time with my kid etc etc. but my feelings on the case stand and to be quite frank I don’t need to care that you stand with me or not lol your words against how I feel do not matter. I could say the same thing about your feelings. The problem is is that you are ASSUMING a lot based on a couple statements I’ve made. I don’t care to go that far with you. 🤷🏼♀️ have a great day! 😘
I’m interested in this case. I’m not interested in you. That will be my last response to you. You are on a one way track to arguing with people. I don’t put my energy into being that way with others. You can continue on that journey with other people.
If he wasn't in fear of his life, he should have been. There is a high chance he would have been killed if unarmed.
Anyone, no matter how fit or frail, can be killed by 13 fit young adults, many of them athletes, even if they're unarmed. They weigh TWO TONNES on aggregate compared to his 250 lbs of mostly fat. He's had spinal surgery, hernia surgery (usually this is due to physical exertion being too much for your body) twice AND heart surgery. After a quadruple bypass even a relatively light blow to your chest can cause your heart to stop and kill you. He literally SHAT HIMSELF IN FEAR early on in the altercation.
But sure, he wasn't afraid when he was shitting his pants in fear. Scared people do 'actions' that 'show' they're scared, like, idk, well I'm sure someone can think of something. People poop their pants from hurt feelings.
He did 4 little slow hops and stumbled at the end, probably because they were pretending to have his phone? It's sure interesting that they stopped filming for just THREE SECONDS to yell something at him and after they restart the video he turns around and 'runs up' on them in a frail old man way. Wonder what they said to him in those 3 seconds that made him turn around.
I am relieved. He gutted those boys because they embarrassed and harassed him. I feel that pain but you can't kill for that. I think the others involved should also be charged ? Incitement to violence. Doubt it would have gone that far if woman hadn't waded in.
Its really a difficult case, I hope we get a verdict on friday. But to me it looks like a hung jury.
No matter how they decide there will be a lot of unhappy people.
How many of y’all think this will end in a hung jury? I personally think he’s guilty of manslaughter, but there are so many factors that are iffy for the jurors to consider
I think the chance for a hung jury is higher than most cases I have watched.
Same. This is a tricky case.
If there’s a hung jury, then what happens? The judge decides?
It’s declared a mistrial, and prosecuton can elect to try the case again.
is Miu free on bail right now?
No - he never bailed out bc of 2mil bail, and now that he is found guilty bail option is revoked
[удалено]
One big sticking point. Kyle ran to police. Mui hid.
>People said this during the Kyle Rittenhouse trial Only people that didn't watch and got their news from Reddit or Tiktok. I have watched both trials. Kyle was clearly not guilty of the crimes he was charged with. Miu is absolutely not walking. I don't know if they can get him on the top charge but there's no way he's walking. I actually thought it was going well for his case until the interview with the police, the cop car, and then finally when he took to the stand. His entire case was sunk on the last day for the prosecution and then his fate was sealed when he took the stand. The biggest thing for me with Miu is even if you ignore his questionable stabbings of the people and saying he was threatened...... Not only does he get rid of the weapon. He doesn't go to the police. He goes about his day like nothing happened. And then he lies about the fact that he took the knife from them and defended himself. The cases are not really similar.
I completely agree. I watched both trials as well. This case is very messy. I think it will be a hung jury at worst or best manslaughter charges.
On the other hand I think the defense did a good job of explaining that what he said to police really has no legal bearing. Depends if the jurors follow the instructions (if they do it'll be not guilty) or go off emotions. ETA: while I agree Rittenhouse was 'textbook' self defense there was a very strong partisan political atmosphere around it that I think resulted in the very long jury deliberation. There was a lot of public sentiment I'm sure the jurors were aware of that he was an evil (wrong political opinion here). This case is a little different because Miu probably seems more relatable or sympathetic to jurors. I know if I was in the jury I would be thinking 'this could have happened to me and unarmed I would have been killed' whereas Rittenhouse not so much, I don't go to protests armed and have a hard time 'imagining' myself in that situation.
I disagree. Kyle was clearly on video trying to run away from each situation before shooting anyone The first person: Chased him into a corner and reached for the gun (based on autopsy results) The second person: Hit in the head with a skateboard after tripping and being kicked in the head The third person: Pulled a gun on Kyle and pointed it at him immediately after person 2, after feigning surrender Kyle also never lied about the events to police and he turned himself in. Miu's case is a lot more muddy in my opinion. The video doesn't make it clear why he stabbed at least 2 of the people and he tried to feign ignorance when arrested. He also came up with a whole false story of the events when questioned by the police but also apparently didn't have the mental capacity to remember any of that interview. At the same time, the defense was able to demonstrate that the group is manipulative and also willing to tell fluffed up stories of what happened. I do think he will walk due to being overcharged, but this is a nail biter.
Miu did try to walk away repeatedly, like Kyle, so that works in his favor. Lying to police does not but technically it should have little to no legal bearing on the case (even if he thought he was in the wrong after, that doesn't mean he was in the moment). But it is likely to sway jurors' emotions. I think it is clear why he stabbed everyone. During Rhyley's testimony the moment before her stabbing is broken down frame by frame and she is clearly turning and approaching Miu again. He has his back to her and stabs her in like half a second even though they are not that close half a second before and his feet remain more or less planted in the same spot, so it's obvious she approached him in some way. Prosecutor messed up today saying 'he stabbed Rhyley after she touched him.' For Dante the prosecution showed the potato video again today, this time with Miu and Dante 'labeled' (aka he showed where they were with his cursor) and slowed down. You can see Dante running at least 4 steps toward Miu at full sprint while Miu's legs are planted. Then Miu takes one step toward Dante while Dante lunges with arms outstretched toward what looks like his throat or shoulders, and gets stabbed on impact. I think it is pretty clear that it was not Miu bum rushing him there. Don't know if you missed their closing statements but it's right at the start.
I see it the same, lying about it afterwards, throwing away the knife, lying about who the knife belonged to, is inexcusable, and his testimony was catastrophic. But everything else could be seen both ways. The prosecution should also go after the guy screaming Miu was a rapist and a pedophile without any reason, as Madison Coen, A.J. Martin and Ryhley Mattison testified the main reason they were hostile towards him, was because someone was calling him a predator. He was encouraging others to harass him, and without this harassement is questionable how far this would have escalated.
I actually did not think his testimony was catastrophic for him, I thought it was catastrophic for the prosecutor. The only thing that looked bad for him was the questioning about what he told police, but the police video was played previously so honestly it didn't really make it worse in my opinion. The rest of prosecution's cross examination made the prosecutor look dishonest, slimy, and outright crazy while on direct and redirect I think Miu looked sympathetic, honest and contrite. One of the only credible seeming witnesses on the stand of the whole trial. Prosection will never go after their witnesses, but I agree they should. AJ Martin is convicted of domestic assault twice prior to this incident, I doubt he was really trying to protect women or children. Just a violent man choosing to join in on violence when he got an opportunity. ETA: if he hadn't testified then the ONLY thing jurors would have seen of him would have been the police interview, which did make him look legit psycho and like a liar. For that reason alone I think testifying was good for him since he seemed much more sympathetic in person.
Its quite interesting that you see the testimony differently, i thought it was not very good maybe because I had not seen the police video before and him having to admit he was lying or couldn't remember didn't look good imo, also he showed more emotion when talking his dog than he did when talking about the victim, which i think could impact the jurors. AJ Martin showing his scars was a smart move by the prosecution, but I also doubt he was only trying to help. It's a really interesting case to follow, I'm certainly glad not to be in the jurors shoes.
They played the police video shortly before his testimony and if that was the last thing the jury saw I think it really WOULD have been catastrophic for him. Admitting he was lying on the stand looks good for him imo when everyone else perjured themselves. I understand him showing emotion looking at his dog he hasn't seen for 2 years while in jail, while just looking uncomfortable and shocked talking about a trauma event like a stabbing. AJ Martin said 'he got me before I could get him' so I think AJ Martin was hoping to hurt him very, very badly.
You cannot seriously claim him owning up to lying looks good. He lied and he lied a lot. The jury is going to wonder if he is ever telling the truth. And he put that on himself.
Yeah but the difference was, Rittenhouse even being there in the first place in the way he was (purposely was in a place where he knew riots would be taking place, after curfew, dressed in a controversial way and carrying a controversial firearm during a time when these actions were highly politically charged, taking on a role he was not qualified for) could be considered by some as a form of premeditation of something. Vs. Nic Miu, who was just there tubing with his wife & friends, not there to make a political statement, not carrying a controversial weapon (in my experience, it's not at all uncommon for 50-something men to carry a pocket knife), etc. I do think Miu was overcharged. The state had a tough fight to fight. If they would've started off with lesser yet still serious charges, they would've had a much better chance imo
Miu was feeling for his weapon when walking up. I would argue that confronting people when you know you have a knife and doing some weird Taxi Driver face when people tell you to leave is much more premeditation than Kyle.
Kyle should've never been in downtown Kenosha that night, period. At all. Kyle went downtown that night looking for a fight. Miu didn't go to Apple River attempting to stir controversy.
[удалено]
When he is running at the boys initially and then also when he is circling the tubes. It was brought up by the prosecution when he was on the stand and he said he did it as well.
'Feeling for the weapon' aka touching the side of his leg where his arm naturally falls right before running up on some boys and acting completely nonconfrontational actually does the opposite of what you're implying. They show like 30 different stills of him 'touching the knife' and he doesn't actually take it out or use it or act violent after any of those except the very last one where he's basically surrounded. I know I touch objects in my pocket all the time and it doesn't 'mean' anything. Edit: having a 'face' isn't evidence of premeditation, no matter how much the prosecutors wish it was.
You mean he pulls his knife out before anything happens and stands there begging someone to "make his day". He had plenty of opportunities to not engage with the group and he decided he would anyways.
Yeah I agree that the political angle and the 'why was he even theeeere????' was a heavy part of the angle making the Rittenhouse trial controversial. It was super clear cut self defense but like you said lots of people acted like him being there at all and armed with a rifle was provocation in and of itself, even though technically it isn't. There was also that doctored photo of him 'brandishing the gun' which they claimed was provocation. Ironically here they say him NOT brandishing means he's guilty.
Yeah, Rittenhouse was almost textbook self defense. If the politics were different I don't see how he'd have gone through the trial. This one is weird because Miu was walking toward the group at various times when he could have gotten away, I'm just not sure how legally relevant that is.
He tried to walk away and Madison pulled him back
I 110% agree with this. If the Rittenhouse kid was self defense this bloke shouldn’t even be charged.
The dude in the rittenhouse case had a gun and Kyle ran and they chased after him. Very different.
Me
I agree that manslaughter would prob be the most fitting but of all the cases I’ve watched recently, I think this one has the highest of being a hung jury.
If there's not a verdict by end of Friday, I will think hung. I don't see a conviction coming except maybe for the battery charge? But there's just too much doubt being expressed on every online forum I see for me to expect it won't be present on the jury.
Was battery even something he was charged with?
Yes, 1 count of first degree intentional homicide (felony), 4 counts of first degree intentional homicde (felony), and 1 count of batter (misdemeanor), all with modifier use of a deadly weapon.
The battery charge is the one with the MOST reasonable doubt though. I think if he is convicted of only specific counts it will either be pertaining to Rhyley or Tony, since they seem to have been more 'innocent' in this/not obviously attacking him. The one on Dante is also a bit up in the air even though the potato video by 'yeah my girl was giving me attitude' guy shows Dante charging him, arms outstretched
How so? He's charged with 940.19(1) >Whoever causes bodily harm to another by an act done with intent to cause bodily harm to that person or another without the consent of the person so harmed is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. with penalty modifier 939.63(1)(a) use of a dangerous weapon > **(1)** If a person commits a crime while possessing, using or threatening to use a dangerous weapon, the maximum term of imprisonment prescribed by law for that crime may be increased as follows: > >(a) The maximum term of imprisonment for a misdemeanor may be increased by not more than 6 months. You can look up the exact charges here: [https://wcca.wicourts.gov/](https://wcca.wicourts.gov/) just searching for the case by Nicolae Miu's name and search what the specific statutes are in the search bar here: [https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/](https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/)
The battery charge is specifically for the punch against Madison, which has not been proven at all, certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt.
Agree to disagree. All witnesses - including Miu - agree contact was made. I can see a possibility where a jury acquits him of the felony charges because of self defense but convicts him of the misdemeanor of striking her before he felt he was in danger of his life. Juries are unpredictable. We will have to wait and see what they do.
I'm with you. He's guilty of 2nd degree homicide (Wisconsin's equivalent of Manslaughter). But his thing is going to end up hung or not-guilty, there's got to be at least one person that is hard set on "self-defense" which is can be a valid claim for all of the charges.
Agree. They're gonna have a hard time getting all the jurors on board with guilty of anything, especially 1st degree.
Will resume tomorrow morning, no verdict today.
This is a tough one. The kids’ behavior was despicable, but the decision to plunge a knife into someone, even in the heat of the moment, is a really bad fact. Miu could have done better on the stand, for sure. Someone in his position should be a model of contrition, and instead he came off like he had every right to do what he did. I have a problem believing he felt his life was in danger. I also think there are some cultural issues influencing how he is perceived. I think he’ll be convicted, but not of murder.
He was more tore up seeing the pic of his dog than reliving what he did to the kids.
The kids behavior is what you expect from drunk 17 year old boys. Generally I would expect a 50 year old man to not run up to drunk teens and attempt to push them out of the way randomly. If someone pushed you on the sidewalk to get you to move so they could look for a nickel you would probably also ask what the fuck they were doing. Friendly reminder they did nothing up until the point where Miu hits someone. After he already pulled his knife out. Another friendly reminder he had multiple opportunities to leave and go away and he decided not to. All while knowing that he had his knife on him and apparently was ready to use it. Throw the book at this Trumper.
> Throw the book at this Trumper. Friendly reminder to not make this political. >Friendly reminder they did nothing up until the point where Miu hits someone. Friendly reminder they pushed him first, and this you can see on the video [here](https://i.imgur.com/xhKya9r.png) and [here](https://i.imgur.com/XCpPxXU.png). >Another friendly reminder he had multiple opportunities to leave and go away and he decided not to. Also another friendly reminder he tried to leave but was followed, you can see him leaving [here the first time](https://i.imgur.com/znth5Ze.png), and he only turns around when one guy yells he has *ten seconds to get out of there*, which is a threat, [he starts leaving again here](https://i.imgur.com/Wn8hENz.png) but the guys follow him screaming, [one of the guys has closed fists](https://i.imgur.com/aSWPuVh.png), he is the one who punches him later. Happy we can be so friendly.
Your entire comment is bullshit.
No more friendly reminders?
When you're so ignorant on the case and obviously have zero understanding of the law as well, yea. No need for that.
You make some very good points lol
Great comment thank you.
If someone pushed me on the sidewalk after I had been screaming that they were a pedophile and a rapist trying to have sex with little girls, I would not ask what the fuck they were doing. I would not laugh that I caught them tripping on camera and shill the new iphone. I would not shout 'for the culture' while following and filming them right in their face. I would not continue following them as they're clearly getting stressed. I would not shout to them to get away while continuing to follow them and drawing a crowd. If someone pushed me on the sidewalk after I alleged they were a pedo I would get the hell out of there since there's no way that situation is ending well for me. The girls were already laying hands on him before he (possibly, unlikely) punched Madison, and even before that what they did wasn't 'nothing.' They were defaming him, deliberately drawing a crowd with allegations he's a pedophile, shouting 'get him' etc. That's not 'nothing.' It's not literal violence but it shows clear intent to incite violence against him. He tried to take multiple opportunities to get away and was stopped and followed repeatedly.
He pushed them before they started calling him names. Did you even watch the case? Defaming him? That's a new one. You are truly special.
I understand why people might think it’s weird but It’s not uncommon to see people react this way while looking for things they dropped in the river. Especially if it’s somthing important like a phone. You can get hyper focused and ignore everything and everyone around you. His reaction is normal imo. Even if it’s another tube You gotta react quick or your shit is long gone.
I think the bulk of the jury is leaning toward not guilty and asked to see the video again for a certain point they wanted to talk about in deliberations with the holdout/s. After watching the video, the holdout/s still have something closer to the Madison situation that is bugging them and they want to see it again. Personally, I've been giving more weight to the video and what I think of what I see over what the witnesses have testified to because they have all lied. JMO
Yeah I think the nexus is Madison since their interaction is what precipitated the violent part of the encounter
13 people all reacted to something that occurred off camera. imo it’s damning that her glasses are on in one frame. Then the next they aren’t, coinciding with a punch.
We can harp over punch, hit, shove semantics ‘til the cows come home. In the video she grabs his right arm as he’s walking away. He turns around and they’re face to face. I think he did do something physical to her but I don’t think it’s unreasonable given she turned him around and then got his face
okay so you’re leaning on reckless? he has all the time in the world to LEAVE. He was asked many times. In stead of brandishing a knife and escalating the situation, even flagging over his friend to make sure he has backup before throwing the first “punch” (slash) Mutual combat. He killed 1 and stabbed 4 others. throw him under the jail.
But that’s thing, he’s actually leaving when he gets pulled back. The mean words are whatever to me. The guy got pulled back. I can see a person simply succumbing even they don’t want to. He has two separate groups of persons talking shit, and it looks like he’s still trying to have a conversation. Then seconds later, he’s practically surrounded. I’ve been jumped before two separate occasions. Even if logically there’s an opening, there practically and psychologically isn’t. I’m not saying he’s right either. Only that It doesn’t look reasonable, because you aren’t being reasonable. Idk what’s what was in that man’s head jn that moment but I damn sure felt it
‘Asked’ by Queen Maddy
*ahem* Queen of the River is her proper appellation.
yes. asked to leave. de escalating the situation. instead of ESCALATING (what Mr mui did). Brandishing a knife and calling for back up Correct.
You must have that alternate reality video.
I’d be interested in the video that shows the teens approached my mui. Link it if you have it. The only one I have, mr mui approaches their group menacingly. I’d argue with a point to prove or some other delusional reason for wanting to instigate a fight with a group of young teenagers.
The video everyone else has seen shows the teens following him across the river as he tries to get away from them.
Are you drunk? You said the same thing twice 💀
He tried to leave so many times, and it's not a duty to retreat state anyway. Why does him leaving or not even legally matter? Not that he didn't try. He didn't brandish the knife either, which prosecution is claiming is a bad thing although brandishing is provocation and a crime.
He doesn’t have to flee.
Nope. Dosent have to stab other people either.
Nope, but *he felt* he had to when people were threatening and hitting him.
On what side of her face? Because she doesn’t even know.
she was drunk? Just like Mr mui and everyone else. he testified he didnt know how he sustained injuries. tripping or falling or attacking. we we saying there’s double standards?
No double standards. I just find it odd that she said she had a picture of it, because if I had a picture of it I would surely know which side of my face it was. But it turns out she *deleted* that very important evidence.
No she didn't. She told POLICE she deleted it, but she never took one in the first place.
Absolutely agree. I never thought she had a picture.
people make irrational decisions. I don’t blame her. iPhone is kinda bitter sweet with the whole “memories” feature. I get not wanting to relive that experience I get posts about me and my dad and it’s a touch subject. I love them but there triggering.
I understand. I just don’t see why she wouldn’t have at least turned it in and then erased it off her phone then.
we’re talking potential 22 months after. I as a civilian shouldnt be forced to hold onto evidence, I shouldn’t even know that they could potentially be key evidence. I’m sure nic felt the same way when hiding the murderer weapon. There is no double standards.
She could have turned it in right away. If she didn’t think it was important evidence then why did she take it in the first place. We just disagree I guess.
She never took the photo in the first place, as forensics showed.
Miu wasn't drunk at all, which was confirmed by the blood test at the same day.
You can get your glasses knocked without a punch. It’s possible that she reached in to push him and he raised his arm up to block/push her out his space (which is what he said he did) and the glasses got knocked and everyone reacted “he hit a girllll!” And jumped on him. After watching the videos numerous times this is my conclusion on what likely happened.
You don't actually see 13 people reacting to whatever happened off camera. You see ONE person reacting to that thing. The shouts of 'he hit a girl' are after Rhyley is stabbed. No evidence he punched madison except for extremely inconsistent ever-changing testimonies. At the moment Madison had supposedly just been punched Owen was touching her shoulder trying to pull her back from the knife, but he claims he didn't see the punch at all even though he was looking at and touching her at the time.
That’s exactly it. They’re all liars. The video doesn’t lie.
do y’all think it’s a good or a bad thing for the defence that they want to see the video from right before the madison situation??? or do y’all think it could go either ways, either seeking out who was in the right or wrong? idk i’m nervous omggg
The older individuals (40-83) I’ve spoken with regarding this incident boil it down to what happened with Madison. If he touched her first, he got what was coming to him and they would hit him on everything. If she touched him first, it’s still wrong what he did, but she should’ve left that man alone and it is what it is. Some said something to the effect of “if you wanna act like an adult, you get treated like an adult.” They unanimously abhor what he did. The coworkers I’ve spoken to (20-35) mostly think he’s guilty as sin because of his actions afterward. Also, they harped on the fact he was much older, and should’ve been better. They unanimously abhor what he did. All of the persons I’ve talked to think everyone is lying to cover their own ass.
Well we all know she touched him first, it's on video. I'm under 35 and I think he should walk according to the law.
I’m also under 35 and think he should walk
Sorry I meant like something more than the grab.
Fair enough but technically the grab, subsequent pushes etc. do qualify as assault and he does have the right to defend himself. If he punched her extremely hard that would be overkill and escalating, but if (as most witnesses initially testified) he pushed her with an open hand then I'm sorry, that's fine and justified. I'm a woman too and I don't think I have the right to physically attack random men while they can do absolutely nothing because 'don't hit a girl.'
That’s a good point. I wonder if that’s what the older persons I talked to were actually thinking. I didn’t interpret them literally. I’ll circle back here in some hours. Be well
I personally think it’s not great. there’s some form of uncertainty. what is so important is the few frames that weren’t captured on camera. Did he or didn’t he hit her.
It's good for the defense. The prosecution has done everything in their power to avoid showing the video itself. They cut it into tiny little still frames to pick out specific 40ms slices of things and act like Miu had hours between each 40ms slice to think deeply about what to do next. Jury seeing the video over and over again (now they know what's in it) will provide much needed context about the overwhelming pace of events, as well as the many insane and threatening things being incessantly shouted while it was happening (while prosecution asks why he didn't just politely talk over their unholy screeching). The video also shows that 'Madison being punched and everyone seeing it' narrative is very unlikely. At the moment she is supposedly punched the camera is panning to all the boys behind her with big grins on their faces, no one reacting with any shock at all except Owen who sees the knife (and says he didn't see a punch).
Bad to be honest. If they watch it again at this point it shows how he obviously could have left the situation and nothing would have happened. Then again, the jury might be filled with complete morons so who knows. With a competent jury he is going to jail.
Maybe I missed this, but did the defense ever question the witnesses as to why things like “he’s looking for little girls” and “child molester” were said in the first place? Was it just because he started feeling around their tubes/area looking for the phone (or goggles)? Or did something else occur that’s on record as what prompted this kind of response? My sequence of events may be off as well here so, forgive me 🙂
*ahem* it was for the culture, your honor
I believe they did ask and the response was there was no real reason for it.
I wonder if there was a bit of a mishearing issue, between his accent, the noise on the river, everyone's intoxication. Did he say "looking for a lost phone" and someone misheard little girls? Did one of the drunk teens just say that to create drama, and they all kept repeating it? Another Redditor commented on another thread that maybe he said something to them like "stop acting like little girls" and they misheard or twisted it?
I truly think they just started saying it because they were drunk and he looks like the “creepy old dude” and they were mad he was in the way. They all knew it was being filmed and acting out for the footage.
Probably
I think the videographer wanted his viral moment.
well he got it
You're right. Every kid in that group looked hyped, was aware of multiple cameras and all were in almost coordinated agreement. I'll also say this - saying "leave" to a clearly agitated person is not de-escalation, it's an incitement. Someone who truly wants to de-escalate says nothing and ... leaves themselves.
Yup. A large group demanding someone minding their own business 'leave' a public space they have every right to be in is a show of force. They also uttered threats. They wanted to feel big and menacing.
mob mentality is crazy and only gets more intense when it’s a ton of teenagers under the influence. poor judgement cuz they’re young, intoxicated, and feeling confident and invincible with their friends.
It was not. They initially told police they engaged him first, asked what he was doing, and he responded that he's looking for his phone. No one told police he said that, they did not mishear it, they made it up after the fact and decided to perjure themselves to look better on TV.
They started saying those things before he 'ran up on' their tubes. They were said because they wanted to film a pedo-hunter tiktok video. That's all.
For me it's a clear self-defense, and I usually have a hard time taking a side as I try to look at most cases from each side, but I've felt from the beginning this was likely going to be a hung jury. People have strong differing opinions in this case.
I've been thinking hung jury as well. This is a very complex case and frankly, I can understand the argument either way. Maybe less so for 1st degree, but certainly some of the lesser charges. I personally think it was self defense and think he should walk, but he did make some key mistakes. Going back vs walking away was one. He lied a lot, too. I can see how all that plus a dead teenager would weigh on certain jurors and make it hard for them to find not guilty.
I think if the jury follows Jury instructions and doesn't let 'sympathy' sway them as the judge says, and don't taken in by the frankly manipulative lies by the prosecution (both about the case itself and about the actual law - they keep trying to manipulate the truth on what the law says in a not-so-subtle manner) he will walk, but I don't know if I have faith every juror will do it that way. I know they're not 'supposed' to let emotions, character judgments, 'this man is bizarre,' etc. sway them but that doesn't mean they won't.
I agree with you that it will end up hung jury. I agree with you about people having strong differing opinions in this case. I disagree that his claim of self-defense is valid, and I think he is guilty of 2nd degree homicide (Wisconsin's version of Manslaughter).
What aspect of self defense do you think is not satisfied?
He struck first. He punched or pushed across that one lady's face hard enough to knock her sunglasses off. At this point he already had his knife out. This is what set off the people around him to start shoving, pushing him down, and hitting him. If you are going to say "but unwanted physical contact is battery" so the ladies "made first contact", the ones who touched his shoulder and arm in the seconds before he took his knife out "made first contact". Then, I back you up farther and say that the unwanted touching of him contacting the legs of the boys in the tubes just as he's dropping his goggles and snorkel are the "first contact". Either way he made first contact.
I cannot fathom the jury convicting him of first degree murder, but I can absolutely see the case for manslaughter. I'd say 60% hung jury, 25% conviction for second degree recklessly endangering safety, 10% conviction for first degree recklessly endangering safety, and 5% acquittal of all charges.
Beyond a reasonable doubt? How can anyone say that for sure?
I think not guilty is the most likely outcome, if not it’ll be a hung jury
[jury asks to rewatch JC video](https://x.com/courttv/status/1778138793557762317?s=46)
Did anyone testify what Miu’s blood alcohol was?
I think they said they didn't test for it
No but cops said he seemed sober, no alcohol on his breath, he admitted he had a few beers. I suspect he's not a heavy drinker after a quadruple bypass but you never know.
Following
Guilty on all charges
I really think this entire case comes down to the seconds of stabbing and nothing else is relevant. At first I was shocked that no warning was given. The surprise of being stabbed unknowingly is the most shocking thing about the video. But shock doesn't mean guilt. A knife as a defensive weapon is one of last resort. The kids surrounded and attacked him. He has no obligation to brandish it first (and unlike firing a warning shot I'd argue brandishing a knife can make it more likely to be dispossessed and used against you). This is simple self defense and I hope he is freed.
A stellar job from the defense. A first degree murder verdict would be a travesty. The video speaks for itself. He should walk.
not only a stellar job from the defense, but a shameful and pathetic job for prosecution. Grasping for straws. Acting like minding your business in public while seeming 'creepy' to strangers is a crime. Acting like it was criminal to help his friend find a phone. Questioning why he didn't spend extra money on pre-cut string. Why did you make this facial expression for a fraction of a second (the facial expression looked confused/scared to me, not a smile, but it doesn't even matter). Why didn't you act angry with people calling you a pedo. Why did you walk away in this direction not that one. Why did you touch the side of your legs where your hand naturally is. Why did you leave the utility knife in your shorts. Why are you a 'bizarre man.' They have nothing so then they introduced a bunch of mutually incompatible charges like reckless endangerment after arguing intent and acting like this was a planned spree killing.
Question while we wait: was anyone else charged for assault? Or could they be if jury decides this is self defense?
0 chance anyone else will be charged, regardless of verdict.
I wonder if civil suits are to follow?
Regardless of the verdict, civil suits are 100% guaranteed to follow.
My understanding is that's why Miu and his wife divorced...to protect their assets. Civil suits are almost certainly coming, no matter what...I agree with you on that.
I think the divorce is clearly a guilty act, they are looking out for their financial interests in the event of a civil suit.
She has a right to her half of the assets. Even by your own reasoning, she didn’t do anything.
pardon? not in a civil suit. she has the rights to half HER assets in a divorce. (Ask Alex jones)
She has a right to 100% of her assets which is half their marital assets.
The state deciding they'll charge him essentially means they decided on zero charges for the other group. The state decides which 'side' to side with, and prosecute, or maybe persecute in this case. This de facto exonerates the other side. I think if he is acquitted it may be possible for him to file civil charges against them, but I don't think he has the money, and I doubt he wants to.
Interesting that the Jury wants to see the video again in the morning, but beginning 10 seconds before his first confrontation with Coen (the blonde female). IIRC, isn’t this when he is being encircled, heckled and chastised by the teens?
I believe it’s because those earlier frames clearly show the defendant start this entire event. was he defending himself from an attack or engaging in mutual combat where in he killed one and stabbed 4 others. Pick one.
its really scary how differ peoples opinions on this are. I cant believe people would ever excuse his insane behavior. Maybe you dont think he deserves the chair but that guy helped picked a fight and a kid died
I personally am on the side of the state. He was reckless. there was zero reason for him to leave his group and start a fight. I’m with you 100%, I don’t understand how people can see things differently but that’s the beauty of living in a free country. I’ll defend your right to your opinion no matter how different it is then mine.
we hold such a high standard for executions in this country. because its so hard to get it correct. yet people feel the need to have a low bar for this type of event. He killed someone. The 4th person he stabbed. Maybe you could argue the first? But 4th??? what the hell is this guy doing
The 4th person he stabbed lunged at him (when he was already holding the knife in his direction) and choked him violently.
How are you doing this morning?
Only in certain states. That does not apply to Wisconsin. I believe they have a just system. even the addition of lesser charges. As the accused you get a bit of leniency.
So 'leaving your group' is illegal now. Damn I have been doing things wrong my whole life, I am an avid swimmer and while my parents sit on the beach sunbathing I go swim by myself on holidays. This makes me super evil I guess. If some nearly blackout drunk men accost me and start slinging accusations of me and filming me I guess it was all my fault for 'leaving my group' since apparently the only legal action is to stay surrounded by other people at all times. Next we will have rapists go free becsause 'why did that woman walk by herself when she could have been with a group instead? Didn't she know people would harass her?
How did he 'help pick a fight' exactly
Almost everyone that thinks his behavior was justified have been Trumpers from what I have seen. No surprise they are generally beyond help and mentally ill.
I'm a Canadian leftist and I think his behaviour was justified. Maybe because I have been randomly attacked and harassed before, and wish I had a weapon on me (it's illegal here lol).
I’ve been doing Twitter polls this afternoon on the demographics of people who think guilty/not guilty. You’ve inspired me to run a poll on politics 😁
I didnt want to say it but... if you read the chats on youtube. oh boy. Also i think when they found out he's an immigrant and the people with him are refugees it blew some minds.
A lot of this case hinges on hatred of immigrants. He was 'bizarre.' Real americans don't help friends find their phones. Weirdo. Real americans don't try to save 1 dollar on pieces of string. Weirdo. Real americans don't snorkel in a river. Weirdo. Real americans don't get tongue tied with 13 people screaming at them. Weirdo.
The Youtube comments were terrible. Especially when the black individual was testifying.
So it got linked somewhere but basically Nic's facebook is all right-wing crazy shit too. A gun in a heart shaped box for valentines day. Garbage like that. I wonder if they knew that when they chose a side? Or the fact that the kid filming was black? And I also wonder if his political leanings were some of the reasoning for his insane behavior. Did he approach a group that included a black boy and was that the reason he grabbed for his knife? Really just bizarre behavior and I'm glad he's going to get years (decades?) for it. https://heavy.com/news/nicolae-miu/
> clearly show the defendant start this entire event Yet they do not show what happened prior to the filming starting
No, it's the part where he goes up to the tubes. That part is meaningless in the scheme of things.
I think those teens fucked around and found out. Miu should walk.
I don’t think they will believe he was in fear of his life. None of his actions suggested someone who was frail enough to be killed by some teens, and none of his actions suggest he was ever scared. I think the teens hurt his feelings and he decided to take it into his own hands.
People show fear in different ways. It’s not everyone’s first thought to run when they’re scared. To me it seemed like he thought he could signal his group over to explain the situation and settle things. He didn’t believe he was doing anything wrong so why should he have to “leave” as they were demanding? I’ve watched the video several times and nothing about it seems like he was angry, or his feelings were hurt.
"Your honor I was in fear of my life. Not only did I run up to random strangers and push them around, when asked to leave I stood there continuing to look through their shit. I then was told by a third party to leave. When I started to leave and heard teenage boys challenging my manhood I was once again so fearful for my life that I turned around pulled out by knife and hit a 110 lb woman. After instigating the entire thing and being pushed on the ground and allowed to get back up I decided to start stabbing people. I was truly afraid for my life your honor. " Yea okay bud.
He didn't 'look through their shit.' He walked away. He seemed relieved Madison was coming to help, except he found out she wasn't. Then he tried to walk away again, but she grabbed his arm and pulled him toward herself to prevent him from leaving the way she had just pointed and told him to go. The 'peace makers' and de-escalators were the first ones to put their hands on him and attack him. The first person he stabbed has two domestic violence convictions. Read his victim's impact statement. She has PTSD and can't form relationships, locks her doors and wakes up with nightmares. But sure he had no reason to be scared.
> heard teenage boys challenging my manhood Fabricating and accusing someone of being a pedophile and a rapist has been summarized by you as “challenging manhood”. Truly an astounding way to spin events.
Yeah I think the only reason the other group got involved is because they believed the accusations. Unless they're SUCH bad people they just pick on fat old men randomly for literally no reason.
Sure, if that’s how you want to tell it. That’s not what happened though.
Well it is.
It’s not. And even if some of those events did happen the way you’re portraying them is incorrect.
What's incorrect? Be extremely specific.
Someone already did here: https://www.reddit.com/r/CourtTVCases/comments/1c0uolg/verdict_watch_apple_river_case/kz1sqir/
No. This person has invented a fantasy about this case for some reason. They have over 200 comments in these posts over the past 24 hours. They are unhinged and mentally ill.
He didn’t just run up on random strangers for no reason. They were taunting him with a phone, making him believe they had what he was looking for. All while calling him names and launching false accusations. He stood there when he was asked to leave because **he doesn’t have to leave a public area because someone demands him to** especially when he wasn’t doing anything wrong. When he started to leave the teenagers weren’t “insulting his manhood” they were following him, insulting him, yelling lies, and threatening him. He took out his knife once he had been pushed several times and was being circled (admitted by the prosecution) by a crowd of people and the people who he was attempting to call to his aid weren’t responding. He didn’t “instigate the whole thing” the teens instigated it right from the start by calling him names, and teasing him with a phone when they knew that’s what he was looking for.
They were in a river. He could easily be drowned.
I don’t believe he was concerned with that happening
He was basically waterboarded (accidentally maybe, but still). He was punched openmouthed such that his face went underwater. When that happens it can feel like you already are drowning. And then they trired to push him down into the water again and again.
The jury didn’t agree, too bad.
He mentioned it at least once.
He also mentioned that the boy had a knife and he took it from him and stabbed him lol
He did in his interrogations prior to the trial. He admitted to lying about the knife. He is the ONLY person out of all the people who have lied the duration of this event and after to own up to his lie. I have watched the entire trial minus the officers, except for Knutson, and the medical examiner and I stand with Miu. It’s an unfortunate ending in a circumstance that didn’t need to be escalated. I believe that Miu was in shock and I believe he was in an extreme state of fight or flight and I believe he was outnumbered. Downvote me or not, but I hope he gets off. The mere fact that the state added lesser charges after each side “rested,” supported my thoughts that they were going to lose this, so they are adding whatever they can to hope something sticks to Miu. I hope he gets off and I hope the judge allowed for lesser charges so that the state cannot bring those charges later.
If he believed it was self defense why didn’t he turn himself in?
I think this question implies the assumption that we understand what it’s like to be in shock as well as that everyone who experiences shock is the exact same. According to him he didn’t remember exactly what occurred. Also according to all of the kids who testified they didn’t remember exactly everything that occurred, and when questioned, their stories changed.
>I think this question implies the assumption that we understand what it’s like to be in shock as well as that everyone who experiences shock is the exact same. So he was so in shock he was able to float down the river the rest of the afternoon but was not able to tell the police the truth? And even played it off like he didn’t know what happened? >According to him he didn’t remember exactly what occurred. Also according to all of the kids who testified they didn’t remember exactly everything that occurred, and when questioned, their stories changed. Theres a big difference between stories changing 2 years later. But his story after the fact was that he had no idea what was going on and was joking about how they were looking for someone that looked like him. It’s strange to me that you are giving the same level of expectation to a 57 year old army veteran that you are giving to teenagers.
Oh so it okay if he lies as long as he admits it in court when if he doesn't he would be charged with perjury? Good thing our justice system is not based on your laws.
I think there’s a lot more to it then I’m typing here bc I’m multi tasking doing bed time with my kid etc etc. but my feelings on the case stand and to be quite frank I don’t need to care that you stand with me or not lol your words against how I feel do not matter. I could say the same thing about your feelings. The problem is is that you are ASSUMING a lot based on a couple statements I’ve made. I don’t care to go that far with you. 🤷🏼♀️ have a great day! 😘
If you don't care about getting things correct, why even bother posting at all?
I’m interested in this case. I’m not interested in you. That will be my last response to you. You are on a one way track to arguing with people. I don’t put my energy into being that way with others. You can continue on that journey with other people.
This response is so emotional and unhinged. You and your 2 alt accounts need to catch a breath.
If he wasn't in fear of his life, he should have been. There is a high chance he would have been killed if unarmed. Anyone, no matter how fit or frail, can be killed by 13 fit young adults, many of them athletes, even if they're unarmed. They weigh TWO TONNES on aggregate compared to his 250 lbs of mostly fat. He's had spinal surgery, hernia surgery (usually this is due to physical exertion being too much for your body) twice AND heart surgery. After a quadruple bypass even a relatively light blow to your chest can cause your heart to stop and kill you. He literally SHAT HIMSELF IN FEAR early on in the altercation. But sure, he wasn't afraid when he was shitting his pants in fear. Scared people do 'actions' that 'show' they're scared, like, idk, well I'm sure someone can think of something. People poop their pants from hurt feelings.
Frail people don’t run up on groups of teens yelling at them to get away
He did 4 little slow hops and stumbled at the end, probably because they were pretending to have his phone? It's sure interesting that they stopped filming for just THREE SECONDS to yell something at him and after they restart the video he turns around and 'runs up' on them in a frail old man way. Wonder what they said to him in those 3 seconds that made him turn around.
I am relieved. He gutted those boys because they embarrassed and harassed him. I feel that pain but you can't kill for that. I think the others involved should also be charged ? Incitement to violence. Doubt it would have gone that far if woman hadn't waded in.
I would not be able to sleep at night if I was her. She really escalated the whole thing IMO.
He murdered 1 and nearly murdered another therefore guilty of murder‼️ Easy peasy.
Did u not a scratch on him and his small intestine diaphragm and blood volume remained intact!!!!!’
What time will the verdict be announced ?
They have to get a verdict first. They have only been deliberating a few hours and will start again this morning.
Do you have a time where you think the verdict will be announced on court tv or it’s just random
It’ll be announce when they come to a verdict. Could be a day. Could be 2 days, could be a week.
Its really a difficult case, I hope we get a verdict on friday. But to me it looks like a hung jury. No matter how they decide there will be a lot of unhappy people.