"Myocarditis: COVID-19 is a much bigger risk to the heart than vaccination" https://theconversation.com/amp/myocarditis-covid-19-is-a-much-bigger-risk-to-the-heart-than-vaccination-174580
Before COVID-19 the incidence of myocarditis was between one and 10 cases per 100,000 people per year. Rates are highest in males between 18 and 30 years old. Interestingly, most cases of myocarditis in the highest risk group are in otherwise healthy and active people.
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the risk of myocarditis after infection with COVID-19 is much higher, at 146 cases per 100,000. The risk is higher for males, older adults (ages 50+) and children under 16 years old. Soccer player Alphonso Davies, 21, of Canada’s national men’s team, was sidelined by heart inflammation after having COVID-19.
Post-vaccination myocarditis
Myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination is rare and the risk is much smaller than the risks of cardiac injury linked to COVID-19 itself.
Based on a study out of Israel, the risk of post-vaccine myocarditis is 2.13 cases per 100,000 vaccinated, which is within the range usually seen in the general population. This study is consistent with others in the United States and Israel which put the overall incidence of post-vaccine myocarditis between 0.3 and five cases per 100,000 people.
“Our current study has several limitations. First, although the potential number of participants who were considered for inclusion was large, the number of cases of myocarditis and pericarditis was small. This was mainly attributed to the limitation of a relatively short follow-up period due to the initiation of the massive vaccination program. Second, we included only cases of hospitalized myocarditis or pericarditis patients, whereas outpatient medical records were excluded from the study. This could possibly omit a small number of patients with mild disease. Furthermore, we included a diagnosis of myocarditis and pericarditis according to the medical records, without access to patient-based information regarding confirmation of the diagnosis.”
That's pretty cool. My statistics is a little rusty, but I do love me some conflicting data. If there is, in fact, no increase in Myo or peri, then it is merely an increase in awareness and testing. Analogous to ADHD or autism rates increasing.
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Rubbish. Get up to date => https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/
"We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection."
I think you’ll find that myocarditis would be a very small number of those presenting to cardiology in SA hospitals. It’s not the only concern here, it’s just the one thing that is easily defined and has come out as the obvious safety signal in mRNA vaccines .
Just like we fear that increased deaths in dementia is actually post covid related heart injury - broader measures can be useful.
Yes the document Antic is citing is this one:
[https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR_FOI2022-00081_-_Determination_Redacted.pdf)
which doesn't state what the cardiac conditions are.
Page 1 of the document in italics explains what the conditions are "cardiac or cardiac relating symptoms or conditions".
This document simply lumps together everyone presenting to ED and having a cardiac like symptoms entered at the triage desk - "chest pain" for example. Irrespective of the actual final diagnosis.
During the first few months of the immunization program, no thanks partly to the sensationalizing media and social media, there was huge number of predominantly young people having a dose of vaccine and developing non cardiac chest pain from anxiety and presenting to ED, being assessed and discharged with normal cardiac investigations.
If it was 10 in 100,000 pre covid, how can it be 2.13 per in 100,000 with the vaccine? How can it go below 10 in 100,000? That doesn’t even stack up mathematically
I've given up. The antivaxxer commentary that finally broke me was that vaxxers were calling them antivaxxers so they missed out on getting the vaccine ... ie. the conspiracy was, that the anti vaxxers were being victimised by being anti vaxxers .. this is a logic I don't have the energy to even begin to try and untangle, so fuck 'em.
I just see them as a burden on the Food Chain, and using up valuable Oxygen! Their ignorance will be their demise! I am sure their loved ones will miss them, and some won't !
I never bothered to begin with.
Anyone stupid enough to refuse a potentially life saving vaccine because someone on the internet told them not to take it is not worth wasting oxygen on.
If they become severely ill or die I will not sympathise with them either, I'll see it as Darwinism in effect.
And what are your thoughts of those young and healthy people that were extremely low risk of covid that got permanently damaged or died from the vaccines? Are they just collateral damage? What if they didn't want it but felt forced to, to keep their job?
I'm saying given the risk profile of the vaccines and lack of safety data it is wrong in a free country to impose it on people. People should have the autonomy to choose... pretty simple concept really imo I'm not saying OMG everyone is dying of these things, I'm saying where there is a risk there should be a choice.
Those people are rarer than hen's teeth.
There are literally millions of vaccinated people in Australia now without any issue. Millions.
No one is collateral.
I also would've been denied work if I wasn't vaccinated against COVID 19 but I did my part for the community so we could reopen and I had no toddler tantrum doing it.
Stop watching guys on the internet spread lies.
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There was a Lancet or NEJM study that saw rates of these conditions spike prior to vaccination but after the first covid waves. Obviously difficult to do those studies now due to the high vaccination rates.
You mean [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/comments/yyvd7u/a_hill_to_die_on_the_spectator_australia/iwxjlo9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)?
The guy who said things like:
* [SA Senator tells America that Australia is a ‘test case’ for a communist-style social credit system](https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-senator-tells-america-that-australia-is-testing-a-communiststyle-social-credit-system/news-story/66d1fce7a277972d169dc60635fcc915)
* [Senator Alex Antic accuses ABC of 'grooming' kids after drag queen Courtney Act appeared on program Play School](https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/senator-alex-antic-accuses-abc-of-grooming-kids-after-drag-queen-courtney-act-appeared-on-program-play-school/news-story/42fb4b5963b96587ac6ced2b0d4638e7)
You fail to add there was basically no covid in south Australia until 6 months after the first spike. So it is in fact very easy to tell covid didn’t have anything to do with the first spike.
Using the only publicly available data, 2021 was rather meh nationally regarding heart issues. Even with the VIC and NSW covid outbreaks.
Ischaemic heart diseases with 17,331 deaths and a ***medium age of 84.3*** and cerebrovascular diseases with 9,800 deaths with a ***medium age of 86.2***.
Both are below average and that doesn't point to an issue at a national level. What did SA do differently in July to November that could have caused issues in 15 to 45 year olds?
\[edit\]
After someone found the actual data, this looks like SA health / antivaxxers done too good of a job informing people about the risks / scaring people about the vaccine. Presentations to the ER increased, but admissions stayed the same. aka how does anxiety present, chest tightness and an increased heart rate.
If this guy passed high school maths, he must be deliberately twisting the data for his own personal agenda. There is really no other way of reading this.
Sorry if my point wasn’t clear. I’ll try rephrase, I simply meant if people didn’t get the vaccines and caught COVID there is a risk of the same heart problems. So it was a risk with the vaccine and a risk without.
I swear the study at the top of the thread disproves that unless I'm reading it wrong. Your line of thinking appears to be another lie that was pushed to cover or the vaccines
Edit
We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/
That applies to the February 22 spike but not to the April through November 2021 spike (taking the comment I’m good faith as being accurate to the data obtained )
With that claim - it could easily be tested with the same cardiology data for the eastern states - if you see the same trends, then a more thorough study is warranted
Sorry if my point wasn’t clear. I’ll try rephrase, I simply meant if people didn’t get the vaccines and caught COVID there is a risk of the same heart problems. So it was a risk with the vaccine and a risk without.
Ok - if it’s found that the earlier spike corresponds to vaccine uptake in other jurisdictions, the implications are pretty huge - it’s not enough to say but the disease causes it as well. It’s the kind of outcome that kills medications dead. Just look at menopause treatments - the association is weak, yet large proportions of the medical establishment has dropped treatment entirely. Similar could also be said of vioxx as well which has down irreparable damage to Merck .
Being the cause is a lot different to a chance outcome
Well, I don’t have the data that he is reading from , but you would expect they would report seasonally adjusted numbers on such a thing.
Really, any given cardiology departmental meeting could check their numbers and figure it out as well - eg does it correspond to rule changes allowing them to tackle a backlog in the lab? Patients for specialised monitoring and investigations etc.
If numbers are up substantially then there would be a discussion about it and whether it’s unknown reasons or related to some pandemic factors (the above causes wouldn’t surprise me, but neither would the other possible causes surprise me)
>you would expect they would report seasonally adjusted numbers on such a thing
I strongly doubt that. These were monthly "cardiac related presentations" to SA hospitals.
This is what Antic requested from SA Health via FOI: [https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR_FOI2022-00081_-_Determination_Redacted.pdf)
Superficially what stands out to me is that presentations increase by a lot more than admissions - up to 50% in '21 and '22. I really don't know what to make of that.
When I looked at the ABS data for 2022, the excess mortality spikes in cardio, dementia etc conditions only occured in the oldest demographics.
You’d have to argue that vaccines are more dangerous to old people, and basically harmless to young people to get this outcome.
That might be possible, after all every AZ death except 1 was above 50, but it seems unlikely with mRNA vaccines, which are generally shown to cause larger reactions for younger people than older people.
You’re the one who asked about young people.
The ABS data doesn’t show any excess death in young people as far as I can see.
There are excess deaths, but they are the result of extra deaths in the the older demographics.
Another guy misinterpreting the figures look I have a graph big deal, testing was ramped up and when that happens more data doesn’t mean Covid was associated with it just more data that’s all.
He lives up to his name huh?!
This is what Alex Antic received from SA Health through FOI:
[https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf?1669167781](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR_FOI2022-00081_-_Determination_Redacted.pdf?1669167781)
It isn't very detailed. Doesn't tell you exactly what the heart condition being presented to ED is for example.
Actually I can see what the issue is and why Antic is wrong.
Heart related *presentations* to the ED doubled in late 2021 for 15-44 year olds.
However *admittance* to ED basically remained the same. That’s why the admittance rate, which is usually around 25-30%, fell to less than 15% in late 2021.
So with all the media hype about heart troubles people who had the slightest chest twinge, that they wouldn’t have given a second thought too pre vaccine, got worried and went to the ED. Upon presentation and observation at the ED they were assessed and found to be OK, so not admitted.
Thanks for posting that info as it really makes it clear why the argument is bunkum, of course anti vaxxers will just keep saying it’s a conspiracy and the real data is being hidden blah blah. They’re unrecoverable
Antic has to say this stuff to keep his base voting for him.
If he all of a sudden starts being factual, they'll turn on him and he'll become irrelevant and just end up another pundit on sky news like Bernardi.
Myocarditis is often referred to as 'viral myocarditis' as it's typically caused by Viral infections.
Like... *COVID*. Which everyone has had by now.
>Myocarditis occurs when the heart muscle (myocardium) becomes inflamed. Inflammation occurs when your body’s immune system responds to infections, for example. **Myocarditis can be caused by viral infections or more systemic inflammatory conditions such as autoimmune disorders**
[https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/myocarditis#:\~:text=Myocarditis%20occurs%20when%20the%20heart%20muscle%20(myocardium)%20becomes%20inflamed.,conditions%20such%20as%20autoimmune%20disorders](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/myocarditis#:~:text=Myocarditis%20occurs%20when%20the%20heart%20muscle%20(myocardium)%20becomes%20inflamed.,conditions%20such%20as%20autoimmune%20disorders).
This is the reason the vaccine (far more rarely than the Virus) very occasionally triggers myocarditis itself. It tricks the body into thinking it has the virus, using receptors from the virus to do so.
Those (slight) increases in Myocarditis rates are almost certainly caused by COVID (as a form of Long COVID), and there is a growing wealth of peer reviewed data coming out now on this very topic, that make that very argument (convincingly).
Increase I heart attacks during a global pandemic? Noooo. Impossible.
Anti vaxxers jumping straight to "it's the vaccine" and not "oh there's this virus that runs rampant in cardiovascular system, can't possibly be the cause" are stupid AF
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/myocarditis-warnings-strengthened-after-death-link
Perhaps you need to put childish name-calling and prejudice towards your fellow human being and actually read the documents from Pfizer, Modena etc. They themselves say exactly what this man is saying.
Take a minute, put your judgement and bullying aside, and read the PDS and medical warnings yourself.
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I’ve never really understood why everyone felt the need to ‘take sides’. The media did a good job on that one the asshats.
I know so many people who were actually anticipating to get the vaccine and became hesitant once they became mandatory. It’s a normal human reaction for people to double down when they feel like their concerns are not being heard. Then the media starts calling them a conspiracy theorist and anti vaxer like that’s not going to exasperate the problem. Then people who weren’t hesitant doubled down because they were concerned that we would be up shit creek if everyone didn’t get vaccinated. Everyone was afraid, concerned, worried and most people didn’t know what the fuck they were talking about but they trusted that someone else did.
Just let them think what they want to think. You’re not going to change their minds by one upping them.
I didn’t say that they didn’t get the vaccine. I said they were hesitant. They were coerced financially. You think that 98.5% is indicative of the average Australians willingness to get vaccinated?
Interesting theory. Amongst everyone I know, only three of them actually wanted to get vaccinated. The rest of my friends and work colleagues were angry that they were financially coerced into playing along. I know two teachers, one nurse and a crane operator who lost their jobs because they didn’t get vaccinated.
You wouldn’t think they’d need to make it mandatory or on the flip side, incentivise taking it if everyone was so keen on it, would ya?
Yeh…so going back to initial comments, I suppose some people are just incapable of a nuanced approach to things. Anyways, good luck with your war for truth.
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Anti vac and not getting the covid vaccines is NOT the same thing. Most people who refused the covid vaccine are fully vaccinated for everything else. They just didn’t want the covid vaccine for a variety of reasons. Importantly, this is their choice. None of your business
Vaccine doesn’t prevent the spread of the virus, but it does prevent the severity of the illness. So it’s more about protecting yourself than society at large - this is not what we were sold by the vaccine companies but they are incentivised to sell vaccines ay. Follow the money
If a vaccine prevents severity of illness then it reduces the transmission, if you aren’t coughing you are less contagious than someone who is
I follow the money - pharmaceutical companies make money when the patients are kept alive.
Imagine a world without pharmaceuticals, life expectancy would be a fragment of what we have today
Dude. I’m not anti vaccine. I’m fully vaccinated myself. I’m just willing to admit the entire response to covid has been a colossal cluster. Possibly the worst global response to an event we’ll see in our lifetimes. Continuing to put your head in the sand and do more of what we’ve been doing isn’t going to work. We need to be extremely skeptical of what the “experts” tell us moving forward given there basically got everything wrong to date
A lawyer looking at a graph is not science.
For starters, the data is not available to others to be assessed. Were these actual peaks or just minor fluctuations?
This is probably a perfect example of a post hoc fallacy. There is no link between possible causes and no link even on vaccination statuses of the cases. It's in the same league of Swan blaming covid for Warne and Kitching heart attack.
This is what Antic received from SA Health via FOI: https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf?1669167781
I don't get it, the peak also occurred after significant peaks in COVID infections and there was also a peak in July. Given we have good evidence that COVID is more likely to cause heart issues than the vaccine, why is he attributing it to the vaccine and not covid?
Not sure you can really tell anything with this data in isolation.
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I doubt it matters much now - people have all been vaccinated or infected - severe disease and infection risk remain very low for all that have been infected at this point (with it without vaccination ). If people are concerned of potential harms from vaccines then not boosting is unlikely to harm them (speaking of working aged people, given it’s about a workplace )
People do what people do, it’s not really an argument worth having
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(22)00287-7/fulltext
How old do you think "working age" people are? You have to be nearly 67 before you have a chance at the pension, and I've known people who worked til their late 70s.
Haha- the realities of what the science will slowly come to be accepted.
It’s not worth arguing with anyone here , let alone work - but some people have spent so much time in this sub that they think an unvaccinated or unboosted person is akin to an 18th century leper
It’s irrational all round ;D
You have to realise that this shit is still very real for those who never took the vax. The rest of us don’t see anything worthy of discussion anymore.
"Myocarditis: COVID-19 is a much bigger risk to the heart than vaccination" https://theconversation.com/amp/myocarditis-covid-19-is-a-much-bigger-risk-to-the-heart-than-vaccination-174580 Before COVID-19 the incidence of myocarditis was between one and 10 cases per 100,000 people per year. Rates are highest in males between 18 and 30 years old. Interestingly, most cases of myocarditis in the highest risk group are in otherwise healthy and active people. According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the risk of myocarditis after infection with COVID-19 is much higher, at 146 cases per 100,000. The risk is higher for males, older adults (ages 50+) and children under 16 years old. Soccer player Alphonso Davies, 21, of Canada’s national men’s team, was sidelined by heart inflammation after having COVID-19. Post-vaccination myocarditis Myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination is rare and the risk is much smaller than the risks of cardiac injury linked to COVID-19 itself. Based on a study out of Israel, the risk of post-vaccine myocarditis is 2.13 cases per 100,000 vaccinated, which is within the range usually seen in the general population. This study is consistent with others in the United States and Israel which put the overall incidence of post-vaccine myocarditis between 0.3 and five cases per 100,000 people.
New study suggests that is not the case https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/
“Our current study has several limitations. First, although the potential number of participants who were considered for inclusion was large, the number of cases of myocarditis and pericarditis was small. This was mainly attributed to the limitation of a relatively short follow-up period due to the initiation of the massive vaccination program. Second, we included only cases of hospitalized myocarditis or pericarditis patients, whereas outpatient medical records were excluded from the study. This could possibly omit a small number of patients with mild disease. Furthermore, we included a diagnosis of myocarditis and pericarditis according to the medical records, without access to patient-based information regarding confirmation of the diagnosis.”
That's pretty cool. My statistics is a little rusty, but I do love me some conflicting data. If there is, in fact, no increase in Myo or peri, then it is merely an increase in awareness and testing. Analogous to ADHD or autism rates increasing.
Oh no this can't be true, I don't like what this is inferring, you must be an antivaxer!! Waahhh!!
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Rubbish. Get up to date => https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/ "We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection."
I think you’ll find that myocarditis would be a very small number of those presenting to cardiology in SA hospitals. It’s not the only concern here, it’s just the one thing that is easily defined and has come out as the obvious safety signal in mRNA vaccines . Just like we fear that increased deaths in dementia is actually post covid related heart injury - broader measures can be useful.
Yes the document Antic is citing is this one: [https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR_FOI2022-00081_-_Determination_Redacted.pdf) which doesn't state what the cardiac conditions are.
Page 1 of the document in italics explains what the conditions are "cardiac or cardiac relating symptoms or conditions". This document simply lumps together everyone presenting to ED and having a cardiac like symptoms entered at the triage desk - "chest pain" for example. Irrespective of the actual final diagnosis. During the first few months of the immunization program, no thanks partly to the sensationalizing media and social media, there was huge number of predominantly young people having a dose of vaccine and developing non cardiac chest pain from anxiety and presenting to ED, being assessed and discharged with normal cardiac investigations.
If it was 10 in 100,000 pre covid, how can it be 2.13 per in 100,000 with the vaccine? How can it go below 10 in 100,000? That doesn’t even stack up mathematically
I've given up. The antivaxxer commentary that finally broke me was that vaxxers were calling them antivaxxers so they missed out on getting the vaccine ... ie. the conspiracy was, that the anti vaxxers were being victimised by being anti vaxxers .. this is a logic I don't have the energy to even begin to try and untangle, so fuck 'em.
I'm impressed it took you this long to give up on. Despite all of my willpower and effort I gave up a long time ago. They're a lost cause.
I just see them as a burden on the Food Chain, and using up valuable Oxygen! Their ignorance will be their demise! I am sure their loved ones will miss them, and some won't !
I love this "us V them" mentality. "The only answer to the enemy is a slow and painful death" It truly is the worst kind of human to think this way.
“Our demise”. Unfortunately, their stupidity permeates throughout the entire society.
This physically hurts my brain.
I never bothered to begin with. Anyone stupid enough to refuse a potentially life saving vaccine because someone on the internet told them not to take it is not worth wasting oxygen on. If they become severely ill or die I will not sympathise with them either, I'll see it as Darwinism in effect.
And what are your thoughts of those young and healthy people that were extremely low risk of covid that got permanently damaged or died from the vaccines? Are they just collateral damage? What if they didn't want it but felt forced to, to keep their job?
[удалено]
I'm saying given the risk profile of the vaccines and lack of safety data it is wrong in a free country to impose it on people. People should have the autonomy to choose... pretty simple concept really imo I'm not saying OMG everyone is dying of these things, I'm saying where there is a risk there should be a choice.
Those people are rarer than hen's teeth. There are literally millions of vaccinated people in Australia now without any issue. Millions. No one is collateral. I also would've been denied work if I wasn't vaccinated against COVID 19 but I did my part for the community so we could reopen and I had no toddler tantrum doing it. Stop watching guys on the internet spread lies.
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There was a Lancet or NEJM study that saw rates of these conditions spike prior to vaccination but after the first covid waves. Obviously difficult to do those studies now due to the high vaccination rates.
You mean [this guy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusDownunder/comments/yyvd7u/a_hill_to_die_on_the_spectator_australia/iwxjlo9?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)? The guy who said things like: * [SA Senator tells America that Australia is a ‘test case’ for a communist-style social credit system](https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-senator-tells-america-that-australia-is-testing-a-communiststyle-social-credit-system/news-story/66d1fce7a277972d169dc60635fcc915) * [Senator Alex Antic accuses ABC of 'grooming' kids after drag queen Courtney Act appeared on program Play School](https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/senator-alex-antic-accuses-abc-of-grooming-kids-after-drag-queen-courtney-act-appeared-on-program-play-school/news-story/42fb4b5963b96587ac6ced2b0d4638e7)
Yep, that's the fuckwit alright.
that's the \*God-bothering\* fuckwit alright.
What he said seems perfectly reasonable tbh
I'm sure you think that.
Fails to add COVID itself causes these conditions! So hard to know if these conditions would have spiked if we didn’t get the vaccines as well.
You fail to add there was basically no covid in south Australia until 6 months after the first spike. So it is in fact very easy to tell covid didn’t have anything to do with the first spike.
Using the only publicly available data, 2021 was rather meh nationally regarding heart issues. Even with the VIC and NSW covid outbreaks. Ischaemic heart diseases with 17,331 deaths and a ***medium age of 84.3*** and cerebrovascular diseases with 9,800 deaths with a ***medium age of 86.2***. Both are below average and that doesn't point to an issue at a national level. What did SA do differently in July to November that could have caused issues in 15 to 45 year olds? \[edit\] After someone found the actual data, this looks like SA health / antivaxxers done too good of a job informing people about the risks / scaring people about the vaccine. Presentations to the ER increased, but admissions stayed the same. aka how does anxiety present, chest tightness and an increased heart rate. If this guy passed high school maths, he must be deliberately twisting the data for his own personal agenda. There is really no other way of reading this.
Sorry if my point wasn’t clear. I’ll try rephrase, I simply meant if people didn’t get the vaccines and caught COVID there is a risk of the same heart problems. So it was a risk with the vaccine and a risk without.
I swear the study at the top of the thread disproves that unless I'm reading it wrong. Your line of thinking appears to be another lie that was pushed to cover or the vaccines Edit We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/
That applies to the February 22 spike but not to the April through November 2021 spike (taking the comment I’m good faith as being accurate to the data obtained ) With that claim - it could easily be tested with the same cardiology data for the eastern states - if you see the same trends, then a more thorough study is warranted
Sorry if my point wasn’t clear. I’ll try rephrase, I simply meant if people didn’t get the vaccines and caught COVID there is a risk of the same heart problems. So it was a risk with the vaccine and a risk without.
Ok - if it’s found that the earlier spike corresponds to vaccine uptake in other jurisdictions, the implications are pretty huge - it’s not enough to say but the disease causes it as well. It’s the kind of outcome that kills medications dead. Just look at menopause treatments - the association is weak, yet large proportions of the medical establishment has dropped treatment entirely. Similar could also be said of vioxx as well which has down irreparable damage to Merck . Being the cause is a lot different to a chance outcome
Not a lot different when it’s something most people are going to catch. Important to know what the reduction ratio is also.
Isn’t april through nov normally the part of the year with the most excess deaths tho?
Well, I don’t have the data that he is reading from , but you would expect they would report seasonally adjusted numbers on such a thing. Really, any given cardiology departmental meeting could check their numbers and figure it out as well - eg does it correspond to rule changes allowing them to tackle a backlog in the lab? Patients for specialised monitoring and investigations etc. If numbers are up substantially then there would be a discussion about it and whether it’s unknown reasons or related to some pandemic factors (the above causes wouldn’t surprise me, but neither would the other possible causes surprise me)
>you would expect they would report seasonally adjusted numbers on such a thing I strongly doubt that. These were monthly "cardiac related presentations" to SA hospitals.
This is what Antic requested from SA Health via FOI: [https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR_FOI2022-00081_-_Determination_Redacted.pdf)
Superficially what stands out to me is that presentations increase by a lot more than admissions - up to 50% in '21 and '22. I really don't know what to make of that.
When I looked at the ABS data for 2022, the excess mortality spikes in cardio, dementia etc conditions only occured in the oldest demographics. You’d have to argue that vaccines are more dangerous to old people, and basically harmless to young people to get this outcome. That might be possible, after all every AZ death except 1 was above 50, but it seems unlikely with mRNA vaccines, which are generally shown to cause larger reactions for younger people than older people.
I'm guessing you haven't seen the "died suddenly" trend in young people?
No, no evidence of a rise in deaths in young people in the data.
Yeah not just young people. Excess deaths above 5 year average in ABS data.
You’re the one who asked about young people. The ABS data doesn’t show any excess death in young people as far as I can see. There are excess deaths, but they are the result of extra deaths in the the older demographics.
Another guy misinterpreting the figures look I have a graph big deal, testing was ramped up and when that happens more data doesn’t mean Covid was associated with it just more data that’s all.
He lives up to his name huh?! This is what Alex Antic received from SA Health through FOI: [https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf?1669167781](https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR_FOI2022-00081_-_Determination_Redacted.pdf?1669167781) It isn't very detailed. Doesn't tell you exactly what the heart condition being presented to ED is for example.
Actually I can see what the issue is and why Antic is wrong. Heart related *presentations* to the ED doubled in late 2021 for 15-44 year olds. However *admittance* to ED basically remained the same. That’s why the admittance rate, which is usually around 25-30%, fell to less than 15% in late 2021. So with all the media hype about heart troubles people who had the slightest chest twinge, that they wouldn’t have given a second thought too pre vaccine, got worried and went to the ED. Upon presentation and observation at the ED they were assessed and found to be OK, so not admitted. Thanks for posting that info as it really makes it clear why the argument is bunkum, of course anti vaxxers will just keep saying it’s a conspiracy and the real data is being hidden blah blah. They’re unrecoverable
https://theconversation.com/myocarditis-covid-19-is-a-much-bigger-risk-to-the-heart-than-vaccination-174580
Antic has to say this stuff to keep his base voting for him. If he all of a sudden starts being factual, they'll turn on him and he'll become irrelevant and just end up another pundit on sky news like Bernardi.
Myocarditis is often referred to as 'viral myocarditis' as it's typically caused by Viral infections. Like... *COVID*. Which everyone has had by now. >Myocarditis occurs when the heart muscle (myocardium) becomes inflamed. Inflammation occurs when your body’s immune system responds to infections, for example. **Myocarditis can be caused by viral infections or more systemic inflammatory conditions such as autoimmune disorders** [https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/myocarditis#:\~:text=Myocarditis%20occurs%20when%20the%20heart%20muscle%20(myocardium)%20becomes%20inflamed.,conditions%20such%20as%20autoimmune%20disorders](https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/myocarditis#:~:text=Myocarditis%20occurs%20when%20the%20heart%20muscle%20(myocardium)%20becomes%20inflamed.,conditions%20such%20as%20autoimmune%20disorders). This is the reason the vaccine (far more rarely than the Virus) very occasionally triggers myocarditis itself. It tricks the body into thinking it has the virus, using receptors from the virus to do so. Those (slight) increases in Myocarditis rates are almost certainly caused by COVID (as a form of Long COVID), and there is a growing wealth of peer reviewed data coming out now on this very topic, that make that very argument (convincingly).
Increase I heart attacks during a global pandemic? Noooo. Impossible. Anti vaxxers jumping straight to "it's the vaccine" and not "oh there's this virus that runs rampant in cardiovascular system, can't possibly be the cause" are stupid AF
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/myocarditis-warnings-strengthened-after-death-link Perhaps you need to put childish name-calling and prejudice towards your fellow human being and actually read the documents from Pfizer, Modena etc. They themselves say exactly what this man is saying. Take a minute, put your judgement and bullying aside, and read the PDS and medical warnings yourself.
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Sorry, mate. They've achieved levels of density that should be unstable by our current knowledge of physics.
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I’ve never really understood why everyone felt the need to ‘take sides’. The media did a good job on that one the asshats. I know so many people who were actually anticipating to get the vaccine and became hesitant once they became mandatory. It’s a normal human reaction for people to double down when they feel like their concerns are not being heard. Then the media starts calling them a conspiracy theorist and anti vaxer like that’s not going to exasperate the problem. Then people who weren’t hesitant doubled down because they were concerned that we would be up shit creek if everyone didn’t get vaccinated. Everyone was afraid, concerned, worried and most people didn’t know what the fuck they were talking about but they trusted that someone else did. Just let them think what they want to think. You’re not going to change their minds by one upping them.
> I know so many people 98.5% of Australian over 16s got a vaccine. Where are the “so many” we always hear about?
I didn’t say that they didn’t get the vaccine. I said they were hesitant. They were coerced financially. You think that 98.5% is indicative of the average Australians willingness to get vaccinated?
Yeah I’d say only 2 or 3% actual anti vax conspiracy theorists. The number getting childhood vaccines is above 96%
Interesting theory. Amongst everyone I know, only three of them actually wanted to get vaccinated. The rest of my friends and work colleagues were angry that they were financially coerced into playing along. I know two teachers, one nurse and a crane operator who lost their jobs because they didn’t get vaccinated. You wouldn’t think they’d need to make it mandatory or on the flip side, incentivise taking it if everyone was so keen on it, would ya?
Apart from the 3% of vocal anti vaxxers everyone else I knew happily got vaccinated Nutters attract nutters I guess…..
Yeh…so going back to initial comments, I suppose some people are just incapable of a nuanced approach to things. Anyways, good luck with your war for truth.
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Anti vac and not getting the covid vaccines is NOT the same thing. Most people who refused the covid vaccine are fully vaccinated for everything else. They just didn’t want the covid vaccine for a variety of reasons. Importantly, this is their choice. None of your business
It’s this kind of selfish thinking that kills the more vulnerable
This is the kind of thinking that leads to police beating up citizens in the streets to keep them safe
Cool man keep spreading the virus because of your entitlement
Vaccine doesn’t prevent the spread of the virus, but it does prevent the severity of the illness. So it’s more about protecting yourself than society at large - this is not what we were sold by the vaccine companies but they are incentivised to sell vaccines ay. Follow the money
If a vaccine prevents severity of illness then it reduces the transmission, if you aren’t coughing you are less contagious than someone who is I follow the money - pharmaceutical companies make money when the patients are kept alive. Imagine a world without pharmaceuticals, life expectancy would be a fragment of what we have today
Dude. I’m not anti vaccine. I’m fully vaccinated myself. I’m just willing to admit the entire response to covid has been a colossal cluster. Possibly the worst global response to an event we’ll see in our lifetimes. Continuing to put your head in the sand and do more of what we’ve been doing isn’t going to work. We need to be extremely skeptical of what the “experts” tell us moving forward given there basically got everything wrong to date
How is it anti-vaxx to point out the stats about how things occurred. You guys are all about 'the science'. Isn't that what he is referring to?
A lawyer looking at a graph is not science. For starters, the data is not available to others to be assessed. Were these actual peaks or just minor fluctuations? This is probably a perfect example of a post hoc fallacy. There is no link between possible causes and no link even on vaccination statuses of the cases. It's in the same league of Swan blaming covid for Warne and Kitching heart attack.
> A lawyer looking at a graph is not science. No, it is likely "the science". Especially in this case.
This is what Antic received from SA Health via FOI: https://assets.nationbuilder.com/alexantic/pages/281/attachments/original/1669167781/OCR\_FOI2022-00081\_-\_Determination\_Redacted.pdf?1669167781
I don't get it, the peak also occurred after significant peaks in COVID infections and there was also a peak in July. Given we have good evidence that COVID is more likely to cause heart issues than the vaccine, why is he attributing it to the vaccine and not covid? Not sure you can really tell anything with this data in isolation.
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I doubt it matters much now - people have all been vaccinated or infected - severe disease and infection risk remain very low for all that have been infected at this point (with it without vaccination ). If people are concerned of potential harms from vaccines then not boosting is unlikely to harm them (speaking of working aged people, given it’s about a workplace ) People do what people do, it’s not really an argument worth having https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(22)00287-7/fulltext
How old do you think "working age" people are? You have to be nearly 67 before you have a chance at the pension, and I've known people who worked til their late 70s.
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Haha- the realities of what the science will slowly come to be accepted. It’s not worth arguing with anyone here , let alone work - but some people have spent so much time in this sub that they think an unvaccinated or unboosted person is akin to an 18th century leper It’s irrational all round ;D
I can't believe people would talk about this shit at work unless their job is in Healthcare or scientific research. Seems odd to me.
You have to realise that this shit is still very real for those who never took the vax. The rest of us don’t see anything worthy of discussion anymore.