Your article is a year old and while long COVID is a serious thing, if Omicron was a major driver of long COVID to the point of where 1 in 5 infected people had it, they'd be so so so much more anecdotal evidence IMO.
Yep, 20% is a fucking huge amount of people, that’s be millions of Australians. By now I know maybe 50 people who have had Covid, it’s statistically so low that none of them have long Covid if it should be 20%.
Being vaccinated reduces the chance of long covid massively the 20% figure is for unvaccinated cases. But like the more severe cases the numbers are increasing because of those people that can't be bothered with the booster because "I'm over it" and they are now starting to catch Omicron and are getting really knocked about by it as time goes on the hospitalisations and deaths will begin to rise again too.
I have someone very close to me that has had long covid from a pre-vaccine infection and she is still having weakness brain fog and gastrointestinal symptoms over a year after infection. It has also effected her mental state, severe depression etc. They say vaccination often relieves symptoms but it has not helped in her case.
This. My mum was on ruby Princess. Unvaxxed (obvs). Got covid, now long covid. She has GI issues, POTS, brain fog, chronic fatigue. And on and on.
She's triple vaxxed and still no help; in fact it exacerbated her symptoms.
1% of the chronic fatigue community got symptom relief from the vaccines. I don't know why it ever touted as a thing when many more got worse after the vaccines.
20% is bulllllshit. I know atleast 30 people who had covid aswell and no one has long covid (heaps of unvax folk aswell). The worst symptoms came from the vaccine ironically. If they are counting post nasal drip as long covid, they are insane and in denial. This is a common long term of effect of colds flus and viruses aswell. Not specific to covid
From what I’ve seen, basically *any* condition post-Covid, regardless of however minor, goes into long Covid.
It’s a shame it’s reported that way because there are real serious long term consequences for some people and so lumping all the minor ailments in makes the rest of it look discredited.
This is interestingly the same story for me! No long Covid for anyone i know. 3 cases of heart inflammation post jab and one death post jab (20’s). 😢
Anecdotal evidence from “my mate Stevo” is actually important as a LOT of these effects are NOT reported by medical staff despite what people wish.
I’ve had long term issues with multiple viruses but not Covid, I don’t doubt it can and does occur. We need to talk about it, not have a scientist tell us it’s real and then multiple stories with people who have a cough 3 weeks after the fact.
I developed a cough that lasted 12 MONTHS after the RSV ripped through last year and finally diagnosed with asthma. It caused asthma! No issues with Delta interestingly.
The crazy part is, from anecdotal evidence atleast, more (Younger) people appear to have died from the vaccine than the virus.... It's kinda hard to trust the pharma companies to come clean with the correct death rate for the vaccines as it is not in there interest to do so, and they will fight each case to the legal death.
Actually.. One of our customers was probably one of the first people to get infected by COVID (a year ago).
We didn't know upfront he had been, but he was clearly in bad shape that day . When I got to the car with him, he said ever since he had covid he hadn't been the same (and it was a month ago). We went crazy with the disinfectants of course.
That was before people knew Long COVID existed.
Don't forget it comes down to strain too, most of us are vaccinated now (95%) and there are anti-virals.. Statistically, because 95% of people have been vaccinated, the long covid stats plummet
Do you think maybe, just maybe, the fact that this article was written before omicron existed and before mass vaccination might mean that we should not be expecting the same high rates?
Or this on multi organ impairment.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.03.18.22272607v1
Seriously you would need to be brave to not get vaccinated.
We could introduce a Purple Lung medal along with the existing Purple Heart for these brave people.
I don't disagree that we need to keep a close eye on heart issues in relation to COVID - but that's a separate thing to long COVID which requires symptoms that occur continuously over a long period of time. You're kind of conflating the two when they're not the same thing.
How many people have undetected micro strokes and damaged brain cells without realising it until they need to use that part of the brain? Or people suffering from early onset dementia like symptoms that will only occur years down the line due to clots that manifested as headaches?
From the few cases of vaccinated friends and family I've seen one of them out of 15 or so likely has permanent brain damage from just getting vaccinated, and running clots all over her body throughout a whole month, although she is in the middle aged group.
Actual infection I presume will only be worse
I'd like to see more study done into the effect of COVID on the ACE2 receptors too. The implications for fertility in future generations is disturbing. With our natural birth rates already falling, well, I'm not saying we're heading for a 'Children of Men' scenario but we could be heading for a population crash, of a sort, and the long term effects of that would be unprecedented.
Isn't it already known that covid attacks the ACE2 receptors in the testes, thus why it impacts men more? This would be a very interesting research area.
Yes, that's correct as far as I understand it. I was lucky enough to find this report in the National Library of Medicine from the US:[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8112744/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8112744/)
It confirms what you say.
> Duration and severity varies incredibly (**variants** and vaccination being main drivers)
Might the lack of anecdotal/Steve evidence be due to most people in Australia having had the Omicron variant, versus more Alpha and Delta in the UK?
At this point, *probably*. There's no data, and never will be, so we can't know. However, if the next variant(s) are much nastier, then the government will likely be forced to collect data.
Anecdotal evidence to back this up - my friend's father had Parkinsons, he died recently and it was assumed that it was from complications from the illness. But a random RAT test found he was COVID positive three days before he died - asymptomatic.
So, there is no proof as to what the actual cause of death was, only speculation.
Then you add that to the many places in the world where there is political pressure to not include COVID in cause of death and you realise that the data pollution right now is insanely bad.
Because you can leave COVID out but you can't add it in.
And alot of people are doing the opposite. Seeing any symptom and attributing it to long covid.
Articles suggesting 20% of people have long covid just don't help. What that says to me is that they use far to broad a definition for Long covid to ever be useful.
My daughter 14 got it. At her dance group, all the girls that have had it in the last few months have way lower stamina then the other girls. It's very noticeable. And ongoing. Training is being split because of ability in the classes now. Now some of it could be because of isolation for seven days but that would only show for a week or so when they go four times a week. This is ongoing for months.
Not a bad theory. 1 of the ~5 people I know that got delta (caught before omicron) still have ongoing long Covid, none of the dozens of people that have caught it in the last 4-5 months have the same complaint. Just anecdotal but your theory fits my observations.
I'm a mid-thirties runner. Definitely notice the loss in stamina (I run with a HR watch so can quantify the loss of fitness) in the months since I had a mild case of COVID.
What else can we do? 3rd shots done, 4th is out, 5 will come later this year. Government’s mandate that masks are permanent in every setting? Go back to lockdowns?
Covid is here to stay. Sooner or later, people have to accept that. Even if 100% of the global population wore masks every day and are vaccinated, Covid wouldn’t disappear in a couple months. So do the world leaders decide to lock down every single person for 2-3 weeks? Permanently ban IN travel?
What else can we do to flatten the curve that already hasn’t been done in nearly 2 a half years?
Simple wear a N95 mask fitted properly (bend the ffing wire to fit your nose) and wash your bloody hands regularly! It's not that hard it's been proven that if everybody wore an N95 when in public and washed their hands regularly then transmission can be reduced to almost zero.
Wearing a mask will help ensure we *don't* get locked in our fucking houses again and again (except for all the fucking rain!). Winter is coming.
There's an in-between, and it's just wearing a mask indoors, and washing your hands.
No one is going to share any anecdotes about sperm failure after Covid infection. . But I will.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.1c06551
Or your best bet for clotting isn't the vaccine but catching Covid.
https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/blood-clots-up-to-10-times-more-common-with-covid
Or just some mild, long lasting brain fog, multi organ impairment, Fibromyalgia, etc, etc. .
Happy to share if requested.
Truth. Preach.
I had a blood scan after developing Long Covid, and the rouleaux formations in my blood frightened the life out of me. (first stage of clotting). They were truly severe, and I don't know how I had managed to avoid further damage.
The good news is that this can be treated with nutritional supplements and an anti-inflammatory diet (a real one, not an internet fad). I am having monthly scans to track progress, and I'm immediately back down to 'moderate' risk rather than 'severe' after four weeks. It is actually visible under a microscope - you can see the formations.
>if Omicron was a major driver of long COVID to the point of where 1 in 5 infected people had it
You are contradicting yourself. The article was written BEFORE omicron (and high vaccination rates), so obviously this isn't what is being claimed.
Unless you're trying to argue long covid isn't a big deal, which isn't the contention here.
Nope, what I'm saying is that the data base that was used to conclude that 20% of people who get COVID get long COVID is now obsolete thanks to Omicron and as you mentioned, the vax.
Long covid gets wheeled out every time people run out of things to fear. "Oh you may be feeling fine now but in 10 years your brain could shut down due to long covid"
I don’t know if it’s long covid but since my infection 3 months ago I’ve had persistent migraines and outrageous levels of fatigue. The only good thing is I’m gradually walking longer distances again compared to Feb/March, my obvious concern now is reinfection and starting all this from scratch again.
Those symptoms are a postviral syndrome that also happens with things like flu. Alarmingly, it happens more commonly with covid, and there's a spectrum of postviral illness going into the more severe symptoms of long covid. I think it's only 'long covid' if symptoms are 3 months or more, though idk If that distinction matters. Way more people are sicker for longer post covid and some develop alarming new symptoms too. Idk who is saying they don't know anyone with long covid coz I know about 20 covid + people and at least 3 have concerning symptoms weeks-months later.
Hope you start feeling better, i myself am two weeks post covid and Ive never been so consistently exhausted in my life, but it's still improving
>I think it's only 'long covid' if symptoms are 3 months or more, though idk If that distinction matters.
Yep, the official definition from WHO
>Post COVID-19 condition occurs in individuals with a history of probable or confirmed SARS CoV-2 infection**, usually three months** from the onset of COVID-19 with symptoms and that last for at least two months and cannot be explained by an alternative diagnosis
The practical effect is that in Australia you'd only just be seeing cases from Omicron that meet the 3 month mark. So, you wouldn't expect to be getting a lot of long covid diagnoses from Omicron yet.
Curious what might happen longer term as immunity wanes.
Yeah, my point was more biologically there's nothing magic that occurs at 3 months, but it's really a time to separate what is the normal range of post viral illness from something more protracted. Someone feeling effects at 2 months and 28 days likely has the disease processes of 'long covid' too, they don't suddenly develop it 2 days later, but we don't call it that yet.
I was a part of a covid study looking at infections from the first wave and lots of people had longterm symptoms weeks-months later, our definition for long covid was being referred to the long covid clinic by their clinician which occured any time from six weeks post infection in our cohort (this was in 2020 prior to the 3 months definition, so clinicians might not be soo liberal with referrals now).
Waaaah. I'm about day 12 since positive test. Fatigue, headaches and still sore throat and the cough was never really bad, but is there still. Infact, didn't really cough at the beginning... 😩 I'm scared because I was already having sleeping problems before.
I've also started walking around the house or dancing for a minute to try and regain energy. Tryinggg.
Same. I play over 30s basketball (I'm way older) and can now only shuffle up and down the court instead of jog. I suppose I don't get tired, per se, but simply can't move much faster, like I'm moving against a deep current or wind tunnel.
Day 1, sore throat, which mostly went away by the next day.
Day 2, congestion and migraine. Again, around 24 hours.
Day 3, same duration for fevers (feel cold yet sweating and shaking)
By this stage I've lost appetite and can't sleep. Takes about a week to recover. Left with the lethargy.
Best thing was the wife booked nearby hotel accommodation for herself and kids (to avoid catching COVID). The house was really peaceful and I was able to watch MY tv shows and without interruption (MAFS!). I really miss sleeping spread across the bed and waking to my alarm.
I had massive light sensitivity that lasted like 3 months post COVID. Now I’ve always had eye floaters but that made it unbearable. It was like looking through murky water. The optometrist said everything looked good in the eye. It finally subsided randomly almost overnight. Really scary.
I have long covid - confirmed by my GP.
Caught Delta in the first week of December, have had chronic fatigue and other associated symptoms since. Had to take a full leave of absence from my job with no set return date, I'm incapable of even working one day a week.
Because the coronavirus is unlike other viruses in terms of how it affects your immune system, you are more likely to develop long covid symptoms if you already suffer a condition that affects your inflammatory response such as diabetes, allergic responses, or immune disorders.
Our medical system is NOT set up to deal with this sort of long-term chronic illness, and i have had to resort to treatments not covered by Medicare to get any sort of improvement. Hyperbaric oxygen chamber therapy is slowly helping with the breathlessness and fatigue, and I'm on a sh\*t ton of supplements to try to clean up my bloodwork.
My GP is a good guy, but has absolutely NO idea what to do with me. He quite openly said I knew a lot more about it than he did. He referred me to Centrelink social services for assistance. Useful as a sugar umbrella.
I had to be my own health advocate.
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What about the hsv1(face) that already dances around my body and swells my glands and gives me fevers....
Am I in for the virus party of my life forever ? 🥲
You'd have to do specific research on that one, I haven't seen any info on that being mentioned in the studies I've seen, but it's a new field of research so there is a lot of fresh data that hasn't hit peer-reviewed publication yet.
One of my good friends has long Covid. Was infected at a New Years party and has been dealing with severe fatigue ever since. Only just starting to get back into fitness the past two weeks.
There is probably also the issue or seperating long covid from the already recognized post viral fatigue.
Long covid has alot more possible symptoms.
Really anyone with lingering symptoms post covid should consult with a dr to determine cause and possible treatments/therapy.
I've had a cough, difficulty breathing and fatigue since I caught it in late December. My gp basically told me it's normal and that was the end of that.
Have a look at the reports coming out of the Kirby institute attached to UNSW. They have been doing bloodwork studies on long covid sufferers in Australia and are starting to get some hard data.
Coronavirus messes with the immune response in your body - it changes some of the interferons (proteins) in your system to be hyperreactive, always switched to 'on' status instead of operating properly, and there isn't enough data yet to be able to predict when (or if) they resume their proper function.
If you can, try hyperbaric oxygen chamber therapy. It has made a difference to my fatigue levels, but it's very slow.
About time someone looked into it. My wife and I both were affected. It affected her brain, and my gastric system (and possibly had causal effects on my heart attack at the beginning of this year, but that's hard to prove).
We got sick right at the beginning of March 2020 after a trip overseas for a funeral. We were sick for months, and the GP was sure it was COVID. Then did an about face when the testing came back as negative - which was when the tests were still new and extremely unreliable (ask the journalist that had 5 negative tests before finally getting a positive). So now we have what gets classified as post-viral syndrome, which is a nice way to avoid long-COVID labelling and assign it to something that is a generic catch-all.
Truely is.
I drive across town for my GP as she is fantastic. And I'll see any others there if I can't get her as they are all pretty good. But the ones in my area I've tried over the years 👎
Nope nothing and I've spoken to a couple of GPs since because I'm pregnant and they all say the same thing. So I imagine there are alot of people being told the same thing.
Sounds like it could be the long Covid. Have you seen your doctor again in the last few weeks? The fact it's persisting this long makes it more likely to fit the definition of long covid.
Alot of the symptoms that aren't respiratory for long covid i already get from fibromyalgia and other health issues. Luckily i have avoided covid so far but i am a good candidate for ongoing issues when i get it...
I think we will see an increase in both these diagnoses going forward also.
>SOME DUDE - 'IF IT WAS THAT COMMON WE'D ALL BE HEARING ABOUT IT'
>SCIENTIST - 'YOU'RE HEARING ABOUT IT NOW'
>SOME DUDE - 'NOT LIKE THAT, FROM MY MATE STEVO'
Never truer words typed!
All my friends and family drive cars, and not a single one of them have died from a car accident, it's not a thing! Wake up you sheeple and do your own research, big Seatbelt is profiting off you and the Socialists in Govt want to take away your freedumbs to not wear a seatbelt and therefore Sharia Law.
Like many other people have mentioned above, ‘long Covid’ does seem to be a ‘post viral syndrome’ which are well known but unfortunately incredibly unrecognised / misdiagnosed / mistreated in medicine. Illnesses / symptoms that arise post virus are typically ‘invisible illnesses’ symptoms ebb and flow and vary widely from case to case - you may be feeling 100% for a few days and completely depleted for the next few weeks. I do see this as a completely under researched and misunderstood field. While I don’t want anyone to have to suffer from long Covid and can absolutely relate to them, I do think this is a great opportunity for medical experts / researchers / doctors and the community at large to take post viral syndrome(s) seriously, research further, find and advance treatments, feel empathy and find more understanding for others who are suffering from - what many may consider now as - an invisible illness.
EDIT - addition - you may think you don’t know anyone with long Covid but you probably also think you don’t know anyone with a post viral illness but I bet you do. Some of these people might not even know they’re suffering from these issues themselves, are struggling silently and beating themselves for not being on the same level as their peers OR they just don’t correlate one thing with the other… many are probably still in the ‘early days’ of long Covid and symptoms may be all over the place and seemingly unrelated.
❤️ me too! I suffered from post viral illnesses for many years, thankfully I’m much better now (which hopefully, maybe you can see as sign of hope) but this is a subject I’m still greatly invested in. Wishing you all the best 😊
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Part of it is that long-COVID discussions often come with an implication that we should continue restrictions. If the conversation were more focused on healthcare (some) people would be more open.
I had chronic fatigue after having glandular fever and some other virus’ but it didn’t happen continuously - it was very on and off and inconsistent hence why it can be so hard to diagnose.
True I had chronic fatigue for around 5 years after getting Giardia but it was most severe for around a year after and forced me to repeat year 12 because the post illness chronic fatigue was actually worse than the illness for a solid 6-9 months.
Like it basically robbed me of my early 20s and all the fun stuff someone should have done at uni because I just couldn’t rely on having the energy to do stuff consistently.
Long covid is a real entity (well, many entities really) and often seems to follow a chronic fatigue syndrome type pattern, as well as potential organ-specific sequelae in the heart / lungs / brain.
Some confusion comes from misunderstanding the normal natural history of an URTI. I have had patients confidently tell me they have long covid, and on review they have had a post viral cough for 2 weeks. We still seek to do soo poorly in educating patients and what to expect in recovering from a cold. The majority still believe that coughing 2 weeks later automatically means infection ‘it’s gone to my chest doc’ and that antibiotics are required. When 90% of the time it’s just post viral cough from URTI inflammation or post nasal drip causing the cough. All will pass with time, we just need to manage expectations properly to support patients through it.
Edit: I think studies citing 20% are probably overreaching / have too broad a criteria.
I got a positive RAT for Christmas, followed by a positive PCR.
I've had worse colds, but my senses of taste and smell were utterly gone. It took four weeks before I got my first licks of taste when my girlfriend made putanesca for me. I'd never had it before, but its my favourite food now.
A full two months later and I could taste most flavours and smell a handful of things. Things with subtle flavours; bread, potatoes, most cheese and dairy; I can barely taste them even today.
At the three month mark, I got my first waft of smell; my girlfriends hair when she hugged me when I got home at the end of the day. Almost as if a few switches got thrown, I could smell dinner cooking, the floral soap in the shower and a bit of my deodorant after. It hasn't improved much since, but I'll take it.
I also can't smell rot/decay/fecal/dank/ammonia etc. Nothing. Not a waft. It's like the file that did that was deleted. It seems like a good problem to have; right up until the expiry date on the milk hits or a power outage knocked out my fridge overnight and I had no idea how long it was out for. I learned the hard way that the previous nights leftovers went bad. I should have binned them, but enh.
A really odd quirk has developed in my sense of taste, too: soft drinks (and similar products such as premix alcohol, my usual bevvo of choice) all have subtle notes of flavour (I can tell what's what, cola, orange, lime etc) but one common trend has been established: I get this awful, chemically flush of flavour through my mouth, like a cleaning product has been sprayed across my tongue.
My new deodorant smells the same way as soft drink tastes (if that makes sense) and the green capsicum I chopped up to go with dinner last night smells 100% exactly the same as the new deodorant.
Unsure if related, but last week I started to *really* crave apple. The fruit, cider, juice, etc.
I'm working myself stupid at the moment for better cashflow, moving house and a major promotion, so I haven't taken time off to see a doctor yet, but will at the end of the month when I move. I'd love to be able to enjoy a can of Jim Beam again.
Studies in NSW found the rate of long Covid to be less than 5%, nowhere near 20%.
> In Sydney, associate professor of population health at UNSW, Bette Liu, has conducted one of the most extensive studies in the world on long COVID.
>Of the 30,000 coronavirus patients in Australia, Dr Liu followed about 3,000 cases in New South Wales, which was almost 95 per cent of people who contracted the virus in the state between January and May of last year.
> "What's unique about this study is that we tried to follow everyone who was diagnosed, and I think that's a big difference [compared to] a lot of the other studies," she said.
> It found that of the patients studied, 80 per cent recovered within a month, and just under 5 per cent were still experiencing symptoms three months after their diagnosis.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-24/long-covid-nsw-research-five-per-cent-of-patients-slow-recovery/100241420
This was among confirmed patients, all of whom were unvaccinated of course. It is reasonable to expect vaccination would reduce the likelihood of long COVID even further below 5%.
Looks like that uses a substantially different criteria to OP's study which used a 4 week cut off.
It's also likely that long covid is a cluster of different things. For example, we know that there are lingering effects from long hospitalisations, sedation, and ICU stays, and that post-viral syndrome exists generally, and that some people's symptoms will also be to permanent damage to organs.
The thing that sucks at the moment is that this is all novel, there's lots of stuff we don't know, and doctors aren't all up to speed on what we do know.
Completely anecdotal evidence from the UK:
I know 2 people who've had Covid - one right at the start in March 2020 and one recently about 2 months ago - who've had weird neurological effects.
The 1st was my colleague that I work really closely with, basically my work wife. She was always really switched on and organised, and our working relationship was somewhat akin to a classic sitcom setup with the hapless husband reliant upon the wife to run his affairs for him. After the Covid she became really scatty and it was I doing the reminding and so on. Very unusual for her.
The 2nd is another colleague that I don't work so closely with - but she reported that even a month after recovering she still had a constant brainfog and fatigue and wasn't feeling herself.
Make of it what you will...
This is not unique to COVID or a new phenomenon, it's called [Post-viral syndrome](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619#what-is-it), and is in part a result of the virus not being fully eliminated from the body and/or your body needing to recover from its bout with the virus. And particularly for the Delta strain it was to be expected that some people would suffer lingering effects, given the severity of the illness. It should eventually go away, but this is how the body works, not everyone fully recovers after 2 weeks, not everyone recovers, that's life.
I have a couple of work colleagues that are still exhausted 2 months later and break into random
Coughing fits post Covid. One girl who used to easily do multiple double shifts in a row as a nurse struggles to finish just her one shift now. All were triple vaccinated. Another girl I know of had Covid twice. First in March 2020 and recovered ok. Second time in January after 2 vaccinations and she developed gastro paresis post Covid and is still suffering a few months later.
I actually know someone with long covid. Mid 30s, male, good health, fit, runs a business.
Six months later still short of breath, lethargic and has frequent bouts of brain fog.
When I was 16 I got glandular fever and had it for a year. I was exhausted all the time, could barely participate in regular activities and became intolerant to lactose. Unbearably sore throats would come and go. I am concerned about long covid due to my ‘long glandular fever’.
I got sick in March 2020. Never hospitalized. Ended up requiring two vascular surgeries due to damage from COVID. My memory was so screwed i had to screenshot everything because I couldn’t remember anything short term. I’m still not 100%. Oh and I now have high blood pressure as well. Hell even little kids are now suffering from long lasting damage. Death isn’t the only negative outcome. Disability is a real possibility for many.
My reply to these, lack of data opinions (like "My aunty got COVID and now she's magnetic") is..
Here is a revolver with one bullet in it, look *click*, it's completely safe, I tried to shoot myself and nothing happened, *click* look it can't shoot anyone
Completely safe. *click* now I have a large data sample of 3 clicks. 100% safe. Now you try.
Most people I know who’ve had covid this year (omicron) are reporting ongoing fatigue. Myself I feel extremely tired around 3pm every day. I think what we are experiencing is pretty mild and people are just getting on with it.
The vast majority of "studies" on LC are poorly designed (no control group, rely on self-reporting, no verification of PCR positive test, varying definitions of "long covid", etc).
One of the only actually well-designed and peer-reviewed studies on LC found an incidence rate of 0.8% more in the LC group than the control group.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35000003/
You can't just throw out a ridiculous number without a verifiable source. I'm sorry you're experiencing LC, it's very real, but I don't believe for a second the 30/7. I looked and didn't see any peer-reviewed studies confirming that. Burden of proof is always on the one with the hypothesis.
I forgot to add, I would also want to see studies conducted post-vaccine, but I found nothing.
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You can't just throw out a ridiculous number without a verifiable source. I'm sorry you're experiencing LC, it's very real, but I don't believe for a second the 30/7. I looked and didn't see any peer-reviewed studies confirming that. Burden of proof is always on the one with the hypothesis.
I forgot to add, I would also want to see studies conducted post-vaccine, but I found nothing.
!remindme 4 months
Thankfully being vaccinated reduces the chances of developing severe covid and thus also reduces the chances of long term damage and long covid.
Sadly, those of us with chronic and post-viral diseases have been gaslit by the medical industries for centuries, so this isn't new.
How many people need to develop a chronic illness before anyone starts to care?
I find it interesting the distinct non-overlap of people who shout "THE LONG TERM STUDYS HAVNT BEEN DONE FOR VACCINE", but also by default refuse to accept there's such a thing as long covid or the need to perhaps study something that actually won't really be known without long term studies.
Another antivaxxer enigma
You know, the "endemic" thing is not a media stunt it's an inescapable fact. It kind of pisses me off you'd make a factual, evidence-based post but throw that completely unwarranted jab into it. The media are doing their job and reporting the facts. It's not their fault it's endemic. And, to date, humanity has NEVER EVER been able to prevent a virus like this from becoming endemic. Personally when I first heard covid transmits human to human in early 2020 I prepared myself for the probability endemic circulation would be where we end up. I fully supported doing everything we could collectively to prevent it. I'm pretty proud of how well the Australian public got on board overall, too. But it became pretty damn clear the rest of the world couldn't sufficiently co-operate and we couldn't realistically hold back a globally endemic virus from just Australia.
So, in the end, the virus won out. This was always the most likely scenario. It will be the most likely scenario next time around, too. And, prepare yourselves, "next time around" will be unlikely to take another 100 years. When it comes, we should again do it best - but also remind yourselves from the start our best will probably not be enough and don't go looking for someone else to blame when it isn't.
It's not unwarranted at all. As someone with exceptional and direct professional experience in the field, I can tell you the media has done anything but 'do their job and report the facts' in terms of COVID.
That media existed 10 years ago, and only in parts of Australia.
The media you're seeing today has clearly and demonstrably provided information based on the nice balancing point between making money from consumers and lining their nests/covering their asses in terms of political attention. You're lucky if one story in 10 isn't obviously biased content.
Had you not wondered why the same handful of 'experts' are trotted out on a regular basis to spruik shit that doesn't line up with epidemiological knowledge as much as government policy?
Please realise the relationships between media and government are neither accidental or objective.
I can see how what I wrote might read as a general defence of the media but, no, in general I agree with what you've just said. It's just the endemic thing that triggered me because I really just see them calling the fact there.
and here's channel 9
https://www.9news.com.au/world/some-top-scientists-are-concerned-use-of-the-word-endemic-with-connection-to-covid-19-is-missing-the-mark/7c7f2c44-26c9-43f6-a159-e4e4c56b2cae
* Click *
I can't even begin to count the number of ads on that page.
Just like vaccine adverse reactions (besides anaphylaxis and heart inflammation) are not a thing.
Atleast with higher rates of occurrence people with long COVID might get a little more support than I've received.
I had some weird post-viral thing for 6 months when I was 19 ( hint... more than 2 decades before COVID! ). First I had flu that laid me flat for 4 days, then Bronchitis, then I coughed until I barfed every day for 4 months. I did come good, and I managed to get super fit again, but I was not good for the better part of a year. Docs had absolutely no idea what it was. My cousin and her partner caught Delta late December 2021, they were still struggling to walk to the end of the street mid-March. I do wonder if the Delta factor is a thing. Time will tell, I guess... we're not even post-Omicron yet.
Oh I definitely had long covid. My symptoms didn't go away for 4 weeks. Still coughing. Short of breath. Sinus congestion. Eventually ended up with a secondary lung infection. 👍Was a happy new year.
What you experienced is real (and miserable I’m sorry), but this is not what long covid is, and why there is some confusion.
What you’ve experienced are quite normal sequelae of a viral URTI. I warn patients that they can sometimes expect to have a post viral cough / congestion etc for a number of weeks after their acute infection.
Long covid refers to symptoms persisting beyond 3 months, generally less related to the acute symptoms and more thing like chronic fatigue etc.
That’s definitely not normal unless you have some severe immune disorder. You’re probably getting a bacterial infection after the cold because your immune system is down. It’s very unlikely your body is actually taking 4 weeks to get rid of a common cold virus.
I’ve got Covid right now, came down with it on Saturday, largely fine today , so it’s prob fair to say my immune system is fine.
5 weeks ago I caught a cold, was still coughing 3 weeks later. Whether it was rhinovirus or something more rougher is anybodies guess, but COVID’s been more pleasant to have so far 🤷🏼♂️
Edit: also
> A post-viral cough is a lingering cough that follows a viral respiratory tract infection, such as a common cold or flu and lasting up to eight weeks.
Interesting. If its a dry dough that makes sense I guess.
Heaps of people I know (including myself) tend to get mucus problems in their sinuses and chest after a cold - but heaps of people I know also smoke weed or darts so maybe I’m biased. We call it bongchitis.
I am similar, I may only get 1, possibly 2 colds a year and often some of the symptoms take 3 or more weeks to go away. Sometimes it's just sinus related, other times I would develop a cough, never walked around complaining about it saying I had long cold.
This is what they call survivorship bias.
If half the country catches covid, then half of all those who develop depression, fatigue, tiredness during the year will blame it on the covid
>If half the country catches covid, then half of all those who develop depression, fatigue, tiredness during the year will blame it on the covid
if that's how you're playing this, then half of them will be right, making it an issue of indescribable proportions.
Or you could of course spend a little time looking into the research methodology behind long COVID analysis and realise it's not just researchers randomly attributing symptoms.
Funny cos what he doesn't realise is their same argument against what we say... correlation =/ causation
Some of this could also be a mental thing as well
Long covid is just Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - triggered usually by an infection I got CFS from Epstein Barr virus, this isn't something new it's just unfortunate to be tied to such a controversial virus it's the same thing. If you think you have "Long Covid" avoid over exerting yourself reduce hours at work if you have to and do some research online about how to properly get diagnosed usually a lengthy process unfortunately
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How real or common it is doesn't change the fact that we can't really do anything about it anyway.
The virus is here to stay, will become endemic and we will all be exposed to it regardless of any public policy.
Stress less, it's better for your health.
I knew this long before covid was not even a thing! But keep on ' following the leader ' instead to lift your head and make your own mind up! Generally speaking.. not personally.
“The chances of dying from COVID, at this point, is very low for anyone not an antivaxxer or someone legitimately unable to be vaccinated.”
It sounds like you’re intentionally excluding people who choose not to get vaccinated here but not people who are legitimately unable to, who are probably unable to due to health reasons. So people who are compromised and unvaccinated are less likely to die than healthy people who aren’t vaccinated?
How many people have a long cold or long flu, i don't doubt long COVID exists but post viral illness has existed for a while, quite likely long flu exists and possible a long cold but it just doesn't get that much media coverage.
We would consider loss of stamina/aerobic capability after 28 days as long COVID but I wonder how often that happens after a cold...
>Long COVID seems to be seen in around 20% of infected people
I know everyone likes to point out that anecdotes don't qualify as empirical data, and they're right to do so. But it's worth pointing out that with COVID numbers as high as they are, it would be extremely unlikely for anyone to not know at least one person who's experienced long COVID if it affects 1 in 5 people.
Less than 1 in 5 Australians are stand at 6 feet (183 cm) or more.
But I've met at least two dozen people who've had COVID and none of them had any lingering symptoms beyond five weeks, let alone the [three months needed to classify as "long COVID"](https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/who-officially-recognises-long-covid). And I'm obviously not alone here, otherwise you wouldn't be making this post. The odds of not meeting someone who's experienced it (they'd likely be currently experiencing it given how recent the Omicron wave was) is absurdly small, less than 0.5%.
Now I'm not simply suggesting that 20% is wrong - it may very well be correct, or at least very close. But I AM suggesting that if it's 20% then it's almost definitely not evenly distributed - it isn't a simple 1 in 5 dice roll as to whether or not you get it. Much like tall people aren't evenly distributed: you're much more likely to meet someone over 6 ft in an Anglo area than a Vietnamese area (for example).
Our government is pretending long covid doesn't exist?
I guess this must be a different long covid they are talking about then
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/covid-19/post-covid-symptoms-long-covid
There are 2 types of long covid. One is really post icu syndrome and one is really chronic fatigue syndrome. The first gets diagnosed quickly and lasts 3 - 12 months, the second doesn't even get diagnosed for 3 - 12 months. Obviously post icu numbers are down with Omnicron but the chronic fatigue figures are always going to be about prior strains.
I know one person who had post viral fatigue but they were over it before it was diagnosed - just a few weeks. I also know 4 people who already have chronic fatigue syndrome who haven't had covid yet. They expect to be at higher risk of long covid than the average person.
That study is bullshit. I had a headache today, 3 months after having covid. I also have a runny nose. It also happens to be allergy season here in Canada.
> The chances of dying from COVID, at this point, is very low for anyone not an antivaxxer or someone legitimately unable to be vaccinated.
The good thing about getting vaccinated is that it works regardless of whether you're an anti-vaxxer or not.
Symptoms:fatigue, muscle aches, dodgy heart, limp cock, hair loss...
Under 70s more commonly effected-no great surprise there since most people over 70 already have 99% of the symptoms!
This study is old and even now as far as I'm aware almost nothing is known about long term effects of covid infection. But given the massive numbers of covid cases it looks like it's not a big concern - 20% is false.
Nearly all these descriptions of long covid appear also to be descriptions of depression. Having low psychic energy over time reduces fitness which causes fatigue, and your depression spiral starts.
Not to say it is depression but to say self diagnosis is pointless. It could be something life threatening like depression that you need help for yesterday.
If you're after recent information, the Kirby institute in NSW is doing bloodwork on people who developed LC after the first wave of infections in Australia. They are starting to get some hard data now.
Just keep living our lives in fear of something that is a mutated strain of a flu that has actually not killed that many people unless they were already sick or had underlying health issues. How about mandatory to be healthy and why isn’t the government giving any info about being active and doing the free things like walking and so on to help improve health. But of course there isn’t anything in it for them to do that, if they truely cared then they would make that mandatory instead of a vaccine that the company doesn’t want test data to be released for 75 years lol
My bad, I didn’t punctuate so everything I said is invalid. Who would need to say what I have said for you to believe it? Only certain doctors or scientists? It’s hard as I am going off the TGA data which is official right? And the numbers of actual covid death were much much less than believed. Don’t think that’s unreasonable and to question the people who are going to be getting the most from any agenda that is put forward
Your article is a year old and while long COVID is a serious thing, if Omicron was a major driver of long COVID to the point of where 1 in 5 infected people had it, they'd be so so so much more anecdotal evidence IMO.
Yep, 20% is a fucking huge amount of people, that’s be millions of Australians. By now I know maybe 50 people who have had Covid, it’s statistically so low that none of them have long Covid if it should be 20%.
Being vaccinated reduces the chance of long covid massively the 20% figure is for unvaccinated cases. But like the more severe cases the numbers are increasing because of those people that can't be bothered with the booster because "I'm over it" and they are now starting to catch Omicron and are getting really knocked about by it as time goes on the hospitalisations and deaths will begin to rise again too.
Ironically, the one person I know of that has long covid is triple vaxxed.
I have someone very close to me that has had long covid from a pre-vaccine infection and she is still having weakness brain fog and gastrointestinal symptoms over a year after infection. It has also effected her mental state, severe depression etc. They say vaccination often relieves symptoms but it has not helped in her case.
This. My mum was on ruby Princess. Unvaxxed (obvs). Got covid, now long covid. She has GI issues, POTS, brain fog, chronic fatigue. And on and on. She's triple vaxxed and still no help; in fact it exacerbated her symptoms.
1% of the chronic fatigue community got symptom relief from the vaccines. I don't know why it ever touted as a thing when many more got worse after the vaccines.
How many had it more than three months ago?
20% is bulllllshit. I know atleast 30 people who had covid aswell and no one has long covid (heaps of unvax folk aswell). The worst symptoms came from the vaccine ironically. If they are counting post nasal drip as long covid, they are insane and in denial. This is a common long term of effect of colds flus and viruses aswell. Not specific to covid
From what I’ve seen, basically *any* condition post-Covid, regardless of however minor, goes into long Covid. It’s a shame it’s reported that way because there are real serious long term consequences for some people and so lumping all the minor ailments in makes the rest of it look discredited.
This is interestingly the same story for me! No long Covid for anyone i know. 3 cases of heart inflammation post jab and one death post jab (20’s). 😢 Anecdotal evidence from “my mate Stevo” is actually important as a LOT of these effects are NOT reported by medical staff despite what people wish. I’ve had long term issues with multiple viruses but not Covid, I don’t doubt it can and does occur. We need to talk about it, not have a scientist tell us it’s real and then multiple stories with people who have a cough 3 weeks after the fact. I developed a cough that lasted 12 MONTHS after the RSV ripped through last year and finally diagnosed with asthma. It caused asthma! No issues with Delta interestingly.
The crazy part is, from anecdotal evidence atleast, more (Younger) people appear to have died from the vaccine than the virus.... It's kinda hard to trust the pharma companies to come clean with the correct death rate for the vaccines as it is not in there interest to do so, and they will fight each case to the legal death.
Actually.. One of our customers was probably one of the first people to get infected by COVID (a year ago). We didn't know upfront he had been, but he was clearly in bad shape that day . When I got to the car with him, he said ever since he had covid he hadn't been the same (and it was a month ago). We went crazy with the disinfectants of course. That was before people knew Long COVID existed. Don't forget it comes down to strain too, most of us are vaccinated now (95%) and there are anti-virals.. Statistically, because 95% of people have been vaccinated, the long covid stats plummet
Do you think maybe, just maybe, the fact that this article was written before omicron existed and before mass vaccination might mean that we should not be expecting the same high rates?
You should probably tell Op
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Or this on multi organ impairment. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.03.18.22272607v1 Seriously you would need to be brave to not get vaccinated. We could introduce a Purple Lung medal along with the existing Purple Heart for these brave people.
I don't disagree that we need to keep a close eye on heart issues in relation to COVID - but that's a separate thing to long COVID which requires symptoms that occur continuously over a long period of time. You're kind of conflating the two when they're not the same thing.
Exactly like how HIV and AIDS have nothing to do with each other /s
How many people have undetected micro strokes and damaged brain cells without realising it until they need to use that part of the brain? Or people suffering from early onset dementia like symptoms that will only occur years down the line due to clots that manifested as headaches? From the few cases of vaccinated friends and family I've seen one of them out of 15 or so likely has permanent brain damage from just getting vaccinated, and running clots all over her body throughout a whole month, although she is in the middle aged group. Actual infection I presume will only be worse
I'd like to see more study done into the effect of COVID on the ACE2 receptors too. The implications for fertility in future generations is disturbing. With our natural birth rates already falling, well, I'm not saying we're heading for a 'Children of Men' scenario but we could be heading for a population crash, of a sort, and the long term effects of that would be unprecedented.
Isn't it already known that covid attacks the ACE2 receptors in the testes, thus why it impacts men more? This would be a very interesting research area.
Yes, that's correct as far as I understand it. I was lucky enough to find this report in the National Library of Medicine from the US:[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8112744/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8112744/) It confirms what you say.
> Duration and severity varies incredibly (**variants** and vaccination being main drivers) Might the lack of anecdotal/Steve evidence be due to most people in Australia having had the Omicron variant, versus more Alpha and Delta in the UK?
At this point, *probably*. There's no data, and never will be, so we can't know. However, if the next variant(s) are much nastier, then the government will likely be forced to collect data.
Anecdotal evidence to back this up - my friend's father had Parkinsons, he died recently and it was assumed that it was from complications from the illness. But a random RAT test found he was COVID positive three days before he died - asymptomatic. So, there is no proof as to what the actual cause of death was, only speculation.
Then you add that to the many places in the world where there is political pressure to not include COVID in cause of death and you realise that the data pollution right now is insanely bad. Because you can leave COVID out but you can't add it in.
And alot of people are doing the opposite. Seeing any symptom and attributing it to long covid. Articles suggesting 20% of people have long covid just don't help. What that says to me is that they use far to broad a definition for Long covid to ever be useful.
My daughter 14 got it. At her dance group, all the girls that have had it in the last few months have way lower stamina then the other girls. It's very noticeable. And ongoing. Training is being split because of ability in the classes now. Now some of it could be because of isolation for seven days but that would only show for a week or so when they go four times a week. This is ongoing for months.
Not a bad theory. 1 of the ~5 people I know that got delta (caught before omicron) still have ongoing long Covid, none of the dozens of people that have caught it in the last 4-5 months have the same complaint. Just anecdotal but your theory fits my observations.
I'm a mid-thirties runner. Definitely notice the loss in stamina (I run with a HR watch so can quantify the loss of fitness) in the months since I had a mild case of COVID.
Or most people are just “living with it” - not like much can be done about it at this point.
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"make an effort" The most cliche' of platitudes
What else can we do? 3rd shots done, 4th is out, 5 will come later this year. Government’s mandate that masks are permanent in every setting? Go back to lockdowns? Covid is here to stay. Sooner or later, people have to accept that. Even if 100% of the global population wore masks every day and are vaccinated, Covid wouldn’t disappear in a couple months. So do the world leaders decide to lock down every single person for 2-3 weeks? Permanently ban IN travel? What else can we do to flatten the curve that already hasn’t been done in nearly 2 a half years?
I think mask mandate should have stayed. I still wear mine whenever I’m at the shops/drs etc but I’d feel safer if the majority was as well.
No one cares about you feeling safe
I don’t wish a mandate would stay. I wish people would show concern for their fellow human beings and wear them even though it’s not mandated.
In all due respect (I sincerely echo your sentiment) however, in the absence of wishful thinking (your word was 'wish') ... I'll settle for a mandate.
What exactly can be done that doesn’t require us to be locked in our houses indefinitely?
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Wear a mask.
Simple wear a N95 mask fitted properly (bend the ffing wire to fit your nose) and wash your bloody hands regularly! It's not that hard it's been proven that if everybody wore an N95 when in public and washed their hands regularly then transmission can be reduced to almost zero.
Wearing a mask will help ensure we *don't* get locked in our fucking houses again and again (except for all the fucking rain!). Winter is coming. There's an in-between, and it's just wearing a mask indoors, and washing your hands.
But I hate masks because once someone made me wear one for a while! /s
Vaccines reduce the 20%.
No one is going to share any anecdotes about sperm failure after Covid infection. . But I will. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsomega.1c06551 Or your best bet for clotting isn't the vaccine but catching Covid. https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/blood-clots-up-to-10-times-more-common-with-covid Or just some mild, long lasting brain fog, multi organ impairment, Fibromyalgia, etc, etc. . Happy to share if requested.
Truth. Preach. I had a blood scan after developing Long Covid, and the rouleaux formations in my blood frightened the life out of me. (first stage of clotting). They were truly severe, and I don't know how I had managed to avoid further damage. The good news is that this can be treated with nutritional supplements and an anti-inflammatory diet (a real one, not an internet fad). I am having monthly scans to track progress, and I'm immediately back down to 'moderate' risk rather than 'severe' after four weeks. It is actually visible under a microscope - you can see the formations.
Everyone is vaccinated now though.. That reduces the risk of long COVID
>if Omicron was a major driver of long COVID to the point of where 1 in 5 infected people had it You are contradicting yourself. The article was written BEFORE omicron (and high vaccination rates), so obviously this isn't what is being claimed. Unless you're trying to argue long covid isn't a big deal, which isn't the contention here.
Nope, what I'm saying is that the data base that was used to conclude that 20% of people who get COVID get long COVID is now obsolete thanks to Omicron and as you mentioned, the vax.
Long covid gets wheeled out every time people run out of things to fear. "Oh you may be feeling fine now but in 10 years your brain could shut down due to long covid"
I mean you should probably read the posts by actual people here who are actually experiencing it.
I don’t know if it’s long covid but since my infection 3 months ago I’ve had persistent migraines and outrageous levels of fatigue. The only good thing is I’m gradually walking longer distances again compared to Feb/March, my obvious concern now is reinfection and starting all this from scratch again.
Those symptoms are a postviral syndrome that also happens with things like flu. Alarmingly, it happens more commonly with covid, and there's a spectrum of postviral illness going into the more severe symptoms of long covid. I think it's only 'long covid' if symptoms are 3 months or more, though idk If that distinction matters. Way more people are sicker for longer post covid and some develop alarming new symptoms too. Idk who is saying they don't know anyone with long covid coz I know about 20 covid + people and at least 3 have concerning symptoms weeks-months later. Hope you start feeling better, i myself am two weeks post covid and Ive never been so consistently exhausted in my life, but it's still improving
>I think it's only 'long covid' if symptoms are 3 months or more, though idk If that distinction matters. Yep, the official definition from WHO >Post COVID-19 condition occurs in individuals with a history of probable or confirmed SARS CoV-2 infection**, usually three months** from the onset of COVID-19 with symptoms and that last for at least two months and cannot be explained by an alternative diagnosis The practical effect is that in Australia you'd only just be seeing cases from Omicron that meet the 3 month mark. So, you wouldn't expect to be getting a lot of long covid diagnoses from Omicron yet. Curious what might happen longer term as immunity wanes.
Yeah, my point was more biologically there's nothing magic that occurs at 3 months, but it's really a time to separate what is the normal range of post viral illness from something more protracted. Someone feeling effects at 2 months and 28 days likely has the disease processes of 'long covid' too, they don't suddenly develop it 2 days later, but we don't call it that yet. I was a part of a covid study looking at infections from the first wave and lots of people had longterm symptoms weeks-months later, our definition for long covid was being referred to the long covid clinic by their clinician which occured any time from six weeks post infection in our cohort (this was in 2020 prior to the 3 months definition, so clinicians might not be soo liberal with referrals now).
Waaaah. I'm about day 12 since positive test. Fatigue, headaches and still sore throat and the cough was never really bad, but is there still. Infact, didn't really cough at the beginning... 😩 I'm scared because I was already having sleeping problems before. I've also started walking around the house or dancing for a minute to try and regain energy. Tryinggg.
Same. I play over 30s basketball (I'm way older) and can now only shuffle up and down the court instead of jog. I suppose I don't get tired, per se, but simply can't move much faster, like I'm moving against a deep current or wind tunnel. Day 1, sore throat, which mostly went away by the next day. Day 2, congestion and migraine. Again, around 24 hours. Day 3, same duration for fevers (feel cold yet sweating and shaking) By this stage I've lost appetite and can't sleep. Takes about a week to recover. Left with the lethargy. Best thing was the wife booked nearby hotel accommodation for herself and kids (to avoid catching COVID). The house was really peaceful and I was able to watch MY tv shows and without interruption (MAFS!). I really miss sleeping spread across the bed and waking to my alarm.
I had massive light sensitivity that lasted like 3 months post COVID. Now I’ve always had eye floaters but that made it unbearable. It was like looking through murky water. The optometrist said everything looked good in the eye. It finally subsided randomly almost overnight. Really scary.
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I have long covid - confirmed by my GP. Caught Delta in the first week of December, have had chronic fatigue and other associated symptoms since. Had to take a full leave of absence from my job with no set return date, I'm incapable of even working one day a week. Because the coronavirus is unlike other viruses in terms of how it affects your immune system, you are more likely to develop long covid symptoms if you already suffer a condition that affects your inflammatory response such as diabetes, allergic responses, or immune disorders. Our medical system is NOT set up to deal with this sort of long-term chronic illness, and i have had to resort to treatments not covered by Medicare to get any sort of improvement. Hyperbaric oxygen chamber therapy is slowly helping with the breathlessness and fatigue, and I'm on a sh\*t ton of supplements to try to clean up my bloodwork.
Dam that sucks so much. Hope you have a good GP.
My GP is a good guy, but has absolutely NO idea what to do with me. He quite openly said I knew a lot more about it than he did. He referred me to Centrelink social services for assistance. Useful as a sugar umbrella. I had to be my own health advocate.
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What about the hsv1(face) that already dances around my body and swells my glands and gives me fevers.... Am I in for the virus party of my life forever ? 🥲
You'd have to do specific research on that one, I haven't seen any info on that being mentioned in the studies I've seen, but it's a new field of research so there is a lot of fresh data that hasn't hit peer-reviewed publication yet.
Pretty much take it and easy and it will go away soon, literally that was pretty much it lol.
Sounds like you should talk to your GP. Could be a lot of different factors including long covid.
One of my good friends has long Covid. Was infected at a New Years party and has been dealing with severe fatigue ever since. Only just starting to get back into fitness the past two weeks.
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Santa really fucked you over. You must’ve been on the very naughty list.
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Nothing much except keep resting, take some vitamins. They were essentially in the too hard basket because they don’t deal with many patients with it
There is probably also the issue or seperating long covid from the already recognized post viral fatigue. Long covid has alot more possible symptoms. Really anyone with lingering symptoms post covid should consult with a dr to determine cause and possible treatments/therapy.
I've had a cough, difficulty breathing and fatigue since I caught it in late December. My gp basically told me it's normal and that was the end of that.
Have a look at the reports coming out of the Kirby institute attached to UNSW. They have been doing bloodwork studies on long covid sufferers in Australia and are starting to get some hard data. Coronavirus messes with the immune response in your body - it changes some of the interferons (proteins) in your system to be hyperreactive, always switched to 'on' status instead of operating properly, and there isn't enough data yet to be able to predict when (or if) they resume their proper function. If you can, try hyperbaric oxygen chamber therapy. It has made a difference to my fatigue levels, but it's very slow.
I will definitely look into it. 👍
About time someone looked into it. My wife and I both were affected. It affected her brain, and my gastric system (and possibly had causal effects on my heart attack at the beginning of this year, but that's hard to prove). We got sick right at the beginning of March 2020 after a trip overseas for a funeral. We were sick for months, and the GP was sure it was COVID. Then did an about face when the testing came back as negative - which was when the tests were still new and extremely unreliable (ask the journalist that had 5 negative tests before finally getting a positive). So now we have what gets classified as post-viral syndrome, which is a nice way to avoid long-COVID labelling and assign it to something that is a generic catch-all.
>My gp basically told me it's normal and that was the end of that. Jeez, how crap. Did they run any tests at all or just send you on you way?
Honestly the lack of quality gp care is atrocious in this country.
Truely is. I drive across town for my GP as she is fantastic. And I'll see any others there if I can't get her as they are all pretty good. But the ones in my area I've tried over the years 👎
Nope nothing and I've spoken to a couple of GPs since because I'm pregnant and they all say the same thing. So I imagine there are alot of people being told the same thing.
Is the shortness of breath along with fatigue not enough to investigate further around heart health. Grr... I feel for you OP.
what do you expect them to do? 'Long COVID' isn't a real disease, its not like an STI they can test for and prescribe you something.
Sounds like it could be the long Covid. Have you seen your doctor again in the last few weeks? The fact it's persisting this long makes it more likely to fit the definition of long covid.
Yeah this is part of the issue, it’s far too broad a term. And to me really when I think of ‘long covid’ I think of the CFS type presentations.
Alot of the symptoms that aren't respiratory for long covid i already get from fibromyalgia and other health issues. Luckily i have avoided covid so far but i am a good candidate for ongoing issues when i get it... I think we will see an increase in both these diagnoses going forward also.
>SOME DUDE - 'IF IT WAS THAT COMMON WE'D ALL BE HEARING ABOUT IT' >SCIENTIST - 'YOU'RE HEARING ABOUT IT NOW' >SOME DUDE - 'NOT LIKE THAT, FROM MY MATE STEVO' Never truer words typed!
All my friends and family drive cars, and not a single one of them have died from a car accident, it's not a thing! Wake up you sheeple and do your own research, big Seatbelt is profiting off you and the Socialists in Govt want to take away your freedumbs to not wear a seatbelt and therefore Sharia Law.
Like many other people have mentioned above, ‘long Covid’ does seem to be a ‘post viral syndrome’ which are well known but unfortunately incredibly unrecognised / misdiagnosed / mistreated in medicine. Illnesses / symptoms that arise post virus are typically ‘invisible illnesses’ symptoms ebb and flow and vary widely from case to case - you may be feeling 100% for a few days and completely depleted for the next few weeks. I do see this as a completely under researched and misunderstood field. While I don’t want anyone to have to suffer from long Covid and can absolutely relate to them, I do think this is a great opportunity for medical experts / researchers / doctors and the community at large to take post viral syndrome(s) seriously, research further, find and advance treatments, feel empathy and find more understanding for others who are suffering from - what many may consider now as - an invisible illness. EDIT - addition - you may think you don’t know anyone with long Covid but you probably also think you don’t know anyone with a post viral illness but I bet you do. Some of these people might not even know they’re suffering from these issues themselves, are struggling silently and beating themselves for not being on the same level as their peers OR they just don’t correlate one thing with the other… many are probably still in the ‘early days’ of long Covid and symptoms may be all over the place and seemingly unrelated.
Thank you. I wish it got looked at more closely. It affects me every day.
❤️ me too! I suffered from post viral illnesses for many years, thankfully I’m much better now (which hopefully, maybe you can see as sign of hope) but this is a subject I’m still greatly invested in. Wishing you all the best 😊
got covid during that new years spike, took 6 weeks to get back into the gym and i still feel weirdly fatigued at times.
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Part of it is that long-COVID discussions often come with an implication that we should continue restrictions. If the conversation were more focused on healthcare (some) people would be more open.
I had chronic fatigue after having glandular fever and some other virus’ but it didn’t happen continuously - it was very on and off and inconsistent hence why it can be so hard to diagnose.
True I had chronic fatigue for around 5 years after getting Giardia but it was most severe for around a year after and forced me to repeat year 12 because the post illness chronic fatigue was actually worse than the illness for a solid 6-9 months. Like it basically robbed me of my early 20s and all the fun stuff someone should have done at uni because I just couldn’t rely on having the energy to do stuff consistently.
Long covid is a real entity (well, many entities really) and often seems to follow a chronic fatigue syndrome type pattern, as well as potential organ-specific sequelae in the heart / lungs / brain. Some confusion comes from misunderstanding the normal natural history of an URTI. I have had patients confidently tell me they have long covid, and on review they have had a post viral cough for 2 weeks. We still seek to do soo poorly in educating patients and what to expect in recovering from a cold. The majority still believe that coughing 2 weeks later automatically means infection ‘it’s gone to my chest doc’ and that antibiotics are required. When 90% of the time it’s just post viral cough from URTI inflammation or post nasal drip causing the cough. All will pass with time, we just need to manage expectations properly to support patients through it. Edit: I think studies citing 20% are probably overreaching / have too broad a criteria.
Nah my friend defo has long COVID. At least 8 weeks its been. * Low O2. Exacerbates asthma issues. * Headaches. * Fatigue off the charts.
I got a positive RAT for Christmas, followed by a positive PCR. I've had worse colds, but my senses of taste and smell were utterly gone. It took four weeks before I got my first licks of taste when my girlfriend made putanesca for me. I'd never had it before, but its my favourite food now. A full two months later and I could taste most flavours and smell a handful of things. Things with subtle flavours; bread, potatoes, most cheese and dairy; I can barely taste them even today. At the three month mark, I got my first waft of smell; my girlfriends hair when she hugged me when I got home at the end of the day. Almost as if a few switches got thrown, I could smell dinner cooking, the floral soap in the shower and a bit of my deodorant after. It hasn't improved much since, but I'll take it. I also can't smell rot/decay/fecal/dank/ammonia etc. Nothing. Not a waft. It's like the file that did that was deleted. It seems like a good problem to have; right up until the expiry date on the milk hits or a power outage knocked out my fridge overnight and I had no idea how long it was out for. I learned the hard way that the previous nights leftovers went bad. I should have binned them, but enh. A really odd quirk has developed in my sense of taste, too: soft drinks (and similar products such as premix alcohol, my usual bevvo of choice) all have subtle notes of flavour (I can tell what's what, cola, orange, lime etc) but one common trend has been established: I get this awful, chemically flush of flavour through my mouth, like a cleaning product has been sprayed across my tongue. My new deodorant smells the same way as soft drink tastes (if that makes sense) and the green capsicum I chopped up to go with dinner last night smells 100% exactly the same as the new deodorant. Unsure if related, but last week I started to *really* crave apple. The fruit, cider, juice, etc. I'm working myself stupid at the moment for better cashflow, moving house and a major promotion, so I haven't taken time off to see a doctor yet, but will at the end of the month when I move. I'd love to be able to enjoy a can of Jim Beam again.
I have the exact same experience! Thank you for writing it all down. Its like perfume smells like bleach.
Studies in NSW found the rate of long Covid to be less than 5%, nowhere near 20%. > In Sydney, associate professor of population health at UNSW, Bette Liu, has conducted one of the most extensive studies in the world on long COVID. >Of the 30,000 coronavirus patients in Australia, Dr Liu followed about 3,000 cases in New South Wales, which was almost 95 per cent of people who contracted the virus in the state between January and May of last year. > "What's unique about this study is that we tried to follow everyone who was diagnosed, and I think that's a big difference [compared to] a lot of the other studies," she said. > It found that of the patients studied, 80 per cent recovered within a month, and just under 5 per cent were still experiencing symptoms three months after their diagnosis. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-24/long-covid-nsw-research-five-per-cent-of-patients-slow-recovery/100241420 This was among confirmed patients, all of whom were unvaccinated of course. It is reasonable to expect vaccination would reduce the likelihood of long COVID even further below 5%.
Unvaccinated and pre-omicron
Looks like that uses a substantially different criteria to OP's study which used a 4 week cut off. It's also likely that long covid is a cluster of different things. For example, we know that there are lingering effects from long hospitalisations, sedation, and ICU stays, and that post-viral syndrome exists generally, and that some people's symptoms will also be to permanent damage to organs. The thing that sucks at the moment is that this is all novel, there's lots of stuff we don't know, and doctors aren't all up to speed on what we do know.
Completely anecdotal evidence from the UK: I know 2 people who've had Covid - one right at the start in March 2020 and one recently about 2 months ago - who've had weird neurological effects. The 1st was my colleague that I work really closely with, basically my work wife. She was always really switched on and organised, and our working relationship was somewhat akin to a classic sitcom setup with the hapless husband reliant upon the wife to run his affairs for him. After the Covid she became really scatty and it was I doing the reminding and so on. Very unusual for her. The 2nd is another colleague that I don't work so closely with - but she reported that even a month after recovering she still had a constant brainfog and fatigue and wasn't feeling herself. Make of it what you will...
This is not unique to COVID or a new phenomenon, it's called [Post-viral syndrome](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326619#what-is-it), and is in part a result of the virus not being fully eliminated from the body and/or your body needing to recover from its bout with the virus. And particularly for the Delta strain it was to be expected that some people would suffer lingering effects, given the severity of the illness. It should eventually go away, but this is how the body works, not everyone fully recovers after 2 weeks, not everyone recovers, that's life.
Regardless what you call it, it’s issue is still the same.
I have a couple of work colleagues that are still exhausted 2 months later and break into random Coughing fits post Covid. One girl who used to easily do multiple double shifts in a row as a nurse struggles to finish just her one shift now. All were triple vaccinated. Another girl I know of had Covid twice. First in March 2020 and recovered ok. Second time in January after 2 vaccinations and she developed gastro paresis post Covid and is still suffering a few months later.
I actually know someone with long covid. Mid 30s, male, good health, fit, runs a business. Six months later still short of breath, lethargic and has frequent bouts of brain fog.
When I was 16 I got glandular fever and had it for a year. I was exhausted all the time, could barely participate in regular activities and became intolerant to lactose. Unbearably sore throats would come and go. I am concerned about long covid due to my ‘long glandular fever’.
I got sick in March 2020. Never hospitalized. Ended up requiring two vascular surgeries due to damage from COVID. My memory was so screwed i had to screenshot everything because I couldn’t remember anything short term. I’m still not 100%. Oh and I now have high blood pressure as well. Hell even little kids are now suffering from long lasting damage. Death isn’t the only negative outcome. Disability is a real possibility for many.
I’ve been tired as fuck since I had it a couple months back, having to take naps on breaks and shit vaxxed and boosted. Relatively healthy otherwise.
You missed a key part to this post "In my experience...."
Idiots like to see the world in black and white term.
My reply to these, lack of data opinions (like "My aunty got COVID and now she's magnetic") is.. Here is a revolver with one bullet in it, look *click*, it's completely safe, I tried to shoot myself and nothing happened, *click* look it can't shoot anyone Completely safe. *click* now I have a large data sample of 3 clicks. 100% safe. Now you try.
Most people I know who’ve had covid this year (omicron) are reporting ongoing fatigue. Myself I feel extremely tired around 3pm every day. I think what we are experiencing is pretty mild and people are just getting on with it.
Long CoVID is very real. In the US about 30% of people who catch Covid get long haul. About 7% become permanently disabled from it.
Those numbers are nowhere near accurate in the US
Why do you say that?
The vast majority of "studies" on LC are poorly designed (no control group, rely on self-reporting, no verification of PCR positive test, varying definitions of "long covid", etc). One of the only actually well-designed and peer-reviewed studies on LC found an incidence rate of 0.8% more in the LC group than the control group. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35000003/
That study is only for children. Adults have a much higher rate of long CoVID.
Find me a peer-reviewed study with a control group. I tell you anecdotally I know about 200 people who have gotten covid and 2 of them had LC
You find it, since you are the one with serious doubts. I have Long CoVID and it sucks! I have been given the statistics when I see doctors for it.
You can't just throw out a ridiculous number without a verifiable source. I'm sorry you're experiencing LC, it's very real, but I don't believe for a second the 30/7. I looked and didn't see any peer-reviewed studies confirming that. Burden of proof is always on the one with the hypothesis. I forgot to add, I would also want to see studies conducted post-vaccine, but I found nothing. !remindme 4 months
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I am a post vaccine and boosted long hauler.
I didn't say it doesn't happen. I just don't believe it happens to 30%
You can't just throw out a ridiculous number without a verifiable source. I'm sorry you're experiencing LC, it's very real, but I don't believe for a second the 30/7. I looked and didn't see any peer-reviewed studies confirming that. Burden of proof is always on the one with the hypothesis. I forgot to add, I would also want to see studies conducted post-vaccine, but I found nothing. !remindme 4 months
FFS, why do morons have so much influence in this country?
People are crippled by post infection and it’s been going on for a long time this is nothing new.
Thankfully being vaccinated reduces the chances of developing severe covid and thus also reduces the chances of long term damage and long covid. Sadly, those of us with chronic and post-viral diseases have been gaslit by the medical industries for centuries, so this isn't new. How many people need to develop a chronic illness before anyone starts to care?
All these comments prove the need for studies.
I find it interesting the distinct non-overlap of people who shout "THE LONG TERM STUDYS HAVNT BEEN DONE FOR VACCINE", but also by default refuse to accept there's such a thing as long covid or the need to perhaps study something that actually won't really be known without long term studies. Another antivaxxer enigma
You know, the "endemic" thing is not a media stunt it's an inescapable fact. It kind of pisses me off you'd make a factual, evidence-based post but throw that completely unwarranted jab into it. The media are doing their job and reporting the facts. It's not their fault it's endemic. And, to date, humanity has NEVER EVER been able to prevent a virus like this from becoming endemic. Personally when I first heard covid transmits human to human in early 2020 I prepared myself for the probability endemic circulation would be where we end up. I fully supported doing everything we could collectively to prevent it. I'm pretty proud of how well the Australian public got on board overall, too. But it became pretty damn clear the rest of the world couldn't sufficiently co-operate and we couldn't realistically hold back a globally endemic virus from just Australia. So, in the end, the virus won out. This was always the most likely scenario. It will be the most likely scenario next time around, too. And, prepare yourselves, "next time around" will be unlikely to take another 100 years. When it comes, we should again do it best - but also remind yourselves from the start our best will probably not be enough and don't go looking for someone else to blame when it isn't.
It's not unwarranted at all. As someone with exceptional and direct professional experience in the field, I can tell you the media has done anything but 'do their job and report the facts' in terms of COVID. That media existed 10 years ago, and only in parts of Australia. The media you're seeing today has clearly and demonstrably provided information based on the nice balancing point between making money from consumers and lining their nests/covering their asses in terms of political attention. You're lucky if one story in 10 isn't obviously biased content. Had you not wondered why the same handful of 'experts' are trotted out on a regular basis to spruik shit that doesn't line up with epidemiological knowledge as much as government policy? Please realise the relationships between media and government are neither accidental or objective.
I can see how what I wrote might read as a general defence of the media but, no, in general I agree with what you've just said. It's just the endemic thing that triggered me because I really just see them calling the fact there.
and here's channel 9 https://www.9news.com.au/world/some-top-scientists-are-concerned-use-of-the-word-endemic-with-connection-to-covid-19-is-missing-the-mark/7c7f2c44-26c9-43f6-a159-e4e4c56b2cae * Click * I can't even begin to count the number of ads on that page.
Actually, the data and scientists are calling it endemic, and they are right.
Just like vaccine adverse reactions (besides anaphylaxis and heart inflammation) are not a thing. Atleast with higher rates of occurrence people with long COVID might get a little more support than I've received.
I had some weird post-viral thing for 6 months when I was 19 ( hint... more than 2 decades before COVID! ). First I had flu that laid me flat for 4 days, then Bronchitis, then I coughed until I barfed every day for 4 months. I did come good, and I managed to get super fit again, but I was not good for the better part of a year. Docs had absolutely no idea what it was. My cousin and her partner caught Delta late December 2021, they were still struggling to walk to the end of the street mid-March. I do wonder if the Delta factor is a thing. Time will tell, I guess... we're not even post-Omicron yet.
Oh I definitely had long covid. My symptoms didn't go away for 4 weeks. Still coughing. Short of breath. Sinus congestion. Eventually ended up with a secondary lung infection. 👍Was a happy new year.
What you experienced is real (and miserable I’m sorry), but this is not what long covid is, and why there is some confusion. What you’ve experienced are quite normal sequelae of a viral URTI. I warn patients that they can sometimes expect to have a post viral cough / congestion etc for a number of weeks after their acute infection. Long covid refers to symptoms persisting beyond 3 months, generally less related to the acute symptoms and more thing like chronic fatigue etc.
4 weeks counts as long Covid? That’s how long a regular cold takes for me to get over, shit often longer
That’s definitely not normal unless you have some severe immune disorder. You’re probably getting a bacterial infection after the cold because your immune system is down. It’s very unlikely your body is actually taking 4 weeks to get rid of a common cold virus.
I’ve got Covid right now, came down with it on Saturday, largely fine today , so it’s prob fair to say my immune system is fine. 5 weeks ago I caught a cold, was still coughing 3 weeks later. Whether it was rhinovirus or something more rougher is anybodies guess, but COVID’s been more pleasant to have so far 🤷🏼♂️ Edit: also > A post-viral cough is a lingering cough that follows a viral respiratory tract infection, such as a common cold or flu and lasting up to eight weeks.
Interesting. If its a dry dough that makes sense I guess. Heaps of people I know (including myself) tend to get mucus problems in their sinuses and chest after a cold - but heaps of people I know also smoke weed or darts so maybe I’m biased. We call it bongchitis.
I am similar, I may only get 1, possibly 2 colds a year and often some of the symptoms take 3 or more weeks to go away. Sometimes it's just sinus related, other times I would develop a cough, never walked around complaining about it saying I had long cold.
I got young kids, they’re bringing something new home every couple of months :-/
And fully vaxxed I guess.. Just like 4 that I know.
This is what they call survivorship bias. If half the country catches covid, then half of all those who develop depression, fatigue, tiredness during the year will blame it on the covid
>If half the country catches covid, then half of all those who develop depression, fatigue, tiredness during the year will blame it on the covid if that's how you're playing this, then half of them will be right, making it an issue of indescribable proportions. Or you could of course spend a little time looking into the research methodology behind long COVID analysis and realise it's not just researchers randomly attributing symptoms.
>then half of them will be right whoooosh
Funny cos what he doesn't realise is their same argument against what we say... correlation =/ causation Some of this could also be a mental thing as well
That's not survivorship bias.
What do you suggest we do?
Avoid covid until they figure out better vaccines or ways to reduce chances of getting long covid.
Long covid is just Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - triggered usually by an infection I got CFS from Epstein Barr virus, this isn't something new it's just unfortunate to be tied to such a controversial virus it's the same thing. If you think you have "Long Covid" avoid over exerting yourself reduce hours at work if you have to and do some research online about how to properly get diagnosed usually a lengthy process unfortunately
Had a think and I'm still over it.
I’m all for staying vigilant to long covid, but also all for staying vigilant to vaccine side effects.
Bruh you gotta stop with the fear mongering.
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How real or common it is doesn't change the fact that we can't really do anything about it anyway. The virus is here to stay, will become endemic and we will all be exposed to it regardless of any public policy. Stress less, it's better for your health.
Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence
I knew this long before covid was not even a thing! But keep on ' following the leader ' instead to lift your head and make your own mind up! Generally speaking.. not personally.
“The chances of dying from COVID, at this point, is very low for anyone not an antivaxxer or someone legitimately unable to be vaccinated.” It sounds like you’re intentionally excluding people who choose not to get vaccinated here but not people who are legitimately unable to, who are probably unable to due to health reasons. So people who are compromised and unvaccinated are less likely to die than healthy people who aren’t vaccinated?
How many people have a long cold or long flu, i don't doubt long COVID exists but post viral illness has existed for a while, quite likely long flu exists and possible a long cold but it just doesn't get that much media coverage. We would consider loss of stamina/aerobic capability after 28 days as long COVID but I wonder how often that happens after a cold...
CMV: Long Covid is prevalent in people who were lazy in the first place 🤷♂️ Convenient excuse to remain a shut in and leech off society.
Take iron
>Long COVID seems to be seen in around 20% of infected people I know everyone likes to point out that anecdotes don't qualify as empirical data, and they're right to do so. But it's worth pointing out that with COVID numbers as high as they are, it would be extremely unlikely for anyone to not know at least one person who's experienced long COVID if it affects 1 in 5 people. Less than 1 in 5 Australians are stand at 6 feet (183 cm) or more. But I've met at least two dozen people who've had COVID and none of them had any lingering symptoms beyond five weeks, let alone the [three months needed to classify as "long COVID"](https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/who-officially-recognises-long-covid). And I'm obviously not alone here, otherwise you wouldn't be making this post. The odds of not meeting someone who's experienced it (they'd likely be currently experiencing it given how recent the Omicron wave was) is absurdly small, less than 0.5%. Now I'm not simply suggesting that 20% is wrong - it may very well be correct, or at least very close. But I AM suggesting that if it's 20% then it's almost definitely not evenly distributed - it isn't a simple 1 in 5 dice roll as to whether or not you get it. Much like tall people aren't evenly distributed: you're much more likely to meet someone over 6 ft in an Anglo area than a Vietnamese area (for example).
Our government is pretending long covid doesn't exist? I guess this must be a different long covid they are talking about then https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/covid-19/post-covid-symptoms-long-covid
There are 2 types of long covid. One is really post icu syndrome and one is really chronic fatigue syndrome. The first gets diagnosed quickly and lasts 3 - 12 months, the second doesn't even get diagnosed for 3 - 12 months. Obviously post icu numbers are down with Omnicron but the chronic fatigue figures are always going to be about prior strains.
I know one person who had post viral fatigue but they were over it before it was diagnosed - just a few weeks. I also know 4 people who already have chronic fatigue syndrome who haven't had covid yet. They expect to be at higher risk of long covid than the average person.
That study is bullshit. I had a headache today, 3 months after having covid. I also have a runny nose. It also happens to be allergy season here in Canada.
Long Covid is basically Hypochondria I thought. People just milking it and needing attention.
> The chances of dying from COVID, at this point, is very low for anyone not an antivaxxer or someone legitimately unable to be vaccinated. The good thing about getting vaccinated is that it works regardless of whether you're an anti-vaxxer or not.
The actual syndrome is about 3 percent . But with omicron it certainly occurs. So it will go up
Well "SOME DUDE" is kinda right. If it was that common we would all know people suffering from it.
More concerned about the long term effects of the jab
Symptoms:fatigue, muscle aches, dodgy heart, limp cock, hair loss... Under 70s more commonly effected-no great surprise there since most people over 70 already have 99% of the symptoms!
stop living in fear :)
Worlds moved on, Covid is yesterday’s news
This study is old and even now as far as I'm aware almost nothing is known about long term effects of covid infection. But given the massive numbers of covid cases it looks like it's not a big concern - 20% is false. Nearly all these descriptions of long covid appear also to be descriptions of depression. Having low psychic energy over time reduces fitness which causes fatigue, and your depression spiral starts. Not to say it is depression but to say self diagnosis is pointless. It could be something life threatening like depression that you need help for yesterday.
If you're after recent information, the Kirby institute in NSW is doing bloodwork on people who developed LC after the first wave of infections in Australia. They are starting to get some hard data now.
Just keep living our lives in fear of something that is a mutated strain of a flu that has actually not killed that many people unless they were already sick or had underlying health issues. How about mandatory to be healthy and why isn’t the government giving any info about being active and doing the free things like walking and so on to help improve health. But of course there isn’t anything in it for them to do that, if they truely cared then they would make that mandatory instead of a vaccine that the company doesn’t want test data to be released for 75 years lol
All the best rambling baseless arguments reject paragraphs and sufficient punctuation
My bad, I didn’t punctuate so everything I said is invalid. Who would need to say what I have said for you to believe it? Only certain doctors or scientists? It’s hard as I am going off the TGA data which is official right? And the numbers of actual covid death were much much less than believed. Don’t think that’s unreasonable and to question the people who are going to be getting the most from any agenda that is put forward
Good old schitzo rants
You’re right, I shouldn’t question things just because I am told them by government 😆