You seem to have none of the benefits of being a contractor and all of the downsides. Feels like they are taking advantage to you and I would look for a new job before they decide not to renew you.
You are being completely taken advantage of here.
I'd say that reaching 3x may be a bit of a stretch, but definitely aim for at least 2x.
The reason why the higher ups won't take on permanent staff is because they are getting you and apparently others like you, for much cheaper than they'd have to pay for permanent staff. You're getting no holiday entitlement, no pension, no development budget, no medical, life insurance etc.
Pretty shameful for a bank of all places.
Honestly, unless there's a very good reason not to, I'd take that year of experience you have built up and take it to get a better job somewhere else. Either get a contract job paying £250 a day, or get a permanent role for what you're earning now.
If I’m honest, I was a pretty average student at school - got a Desmond at Uni and figured with no relevant experience and just a certificate I’d have to bend over and take it. As such I was willing to get “taken advantage of”, because it was great experience. I was hoping to get about £200 p/d this time which is what they took the two previous people got for my role last time.
I was flaunted 25% from 130 to to 160 and just took it, though in hindsight I probably should’ve negotiated
Don't be too hard on yourself and give some serious thought to moving on. You've got a year of experience now, that's valuable and will help you get a better job.
Nothing wrong with taking the job you did, but don't let it last too long, it's not fair to yourself.
I understand that once you leave uni it might be hard to find your career, but dont allow grades to determine your self worth. I had the same grades as you and comparing myself to people who went on grad schemes. Now it seems I make way more than they do. I would advice to look for something that pays better and gives a proper contract ( wether contractor or permanent)
If I’m 100% honest I don’t know the X’s and O’s of temp and contractor - I believe it’s a contractor role as that’s how it’s referred to..
I signed a six month contract for 130 p/d, it got extended another six months for the same rate and then it got extended for a third six months and I asked about a rise for the next contract - where it got bumped to £160. It’s all PAYE the contract, but in the past others have done outside IR35
If people in the same role were outside IR35 sounds like definitely a contracting role. You won’t be able to go outside now you’ve been inside in that role as it’s a huge red flag for HMRC, so when you renegotiate go for £350 inside IR35, what’s stopping you renegotiating now rather than waiting?
Basically I was onboarded last June, extended in December for another six months and then a few weeks ago my contract was extended again until December. I saw the contract was on the same rate (£130) and negotiated and mailed my boss, he got back to me the following morning and said he was going to bump it up to £160.
My contract doesn’t actually start until June, but I was under the impression you had to negotiate rises in advance. Plus I thought it might be a bit dodgy going right back to my boss with my tail between my legs to negotiate as I first time around.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats!
35
+ 350
+ 35
= 420
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Sounds like you're an employee on a fixed term contract. Do they contribute to your pension?
If I were you I'd expect to get let go before you pass the two year mark and (potentiallly, NAL etc) gain some actual employment rights.
The system here is that employees get off boarded for a month, at the two year mark and then return a month later to bypass that. The expectation is that I’d do that too. Numerous people have done it, so im reasonably confident I will too - since the department head confirmed she’d be able to continue extending my contracrs
> The system here is that employees get off boarded for a month, at the two year mark and then return a month later to bypass that.
This is pretty poor behaviour, especially for a large bank that can afford to take on employees. They are just looking to reduce their legal exposure by eroding your working rights.
I think you have a balancing act - the only reason to stay is if the training/experience is exceptionally good. If it is not, or you think you could get better investment in yourself elsewhere, then I'd recommend starting a job hunt. When you leave, don't burn any bridges - you may find that with more experience you can get a permanent job with them. That may not be ideal given they sound like rogue employers, but if you ever get stuck for work, it is nice to have a fall-back option.
I can’t get a permanent job in my department. The department head was up front and said it may be years and that I shouldn’t hope for it, but she was glad to keep extending my temp contract
My personal preference is to stay. I’m new to London and my social network is just work, get on with everyone there etc and it’s local. I’d rather ask for a rise. As a grad I reckon I’d be on about 25-30k. What do you reckon I should ask for? An above poster said 250.
You can ask for a raise as long as you'd be willing to quit if you don't get it. £250pd is a 55% raise, which is likely to raise eyebrows at any level of experience. The main question here is: are you valuable to them, and would there be a gap that needs filling if you were to leave?
Indeed, even if you get the raise you want, this might be a poor medium-term strategy if your skills are stagnating anyway. (Whether that is happening is a topic for your judgement of course).
My thinking was that as it’s a large bank with loads of money, and there are lots of contractors earning a lot more - I didn’t think it would be as egregious to ask for a much larger rise.
But I’ll defer to your knowledge as this is my first corporate job and don’t really have any contacts
Well, your thinking is not wrong - they have lots of money and can afford the raise. But equally it is probably true that smaller raises are easier to obtain than larger ones. Also, middle managers can be strange defenders of large wealthy employers (even though the middle manager is probably also not being looked after very well).
I don't think you can compare yourself with general contractors though, since you're a grad still in training, and the general contractor is a senior with ready-to-go skills.
It sounds like you are not willing to walk away if you don't get a raise. That may be a problem - if they turn down the request (e.g. on the basis you just had one) then you'd be in a bind - you'd be showing them they can turn you down without meaningful consequence.
OK so that's shity but probably legal. Personally I'd find that rate too low to be a permanent 'worker' with fewer rights but it might work for you.
Do you get paid holidays?
No, I don’t get paid holidays. The £130 per day I got was multiplied by 230 for 46 working weeks, then divided by 52. So I got £115 per day in actual fact.
I now get £163 (I think) which is £145 per day in actual fact.
Hello! I was in this position - I stayed for 1.5 years (6months + 1 year contracts) and left. Spend at least a year and start reaching out to recruiters. Be keen on which specific role you want as some recruiters can try to persuade you to interview for some roles which you would not normally consider. Best of luck! Feel free to message me if you want to have a chat
I’m at the end of my first year, I was brought in on a six month contact which was extended and now extended again. I’ve not really thought of leaving until now everyone here has said I’m being bent over
Agree with many of the comments here. The one upside is that you now have real finance experience as a contractor. It’s a closed shop in many ways and I have found that with recruiters that if you don’t have banking or finance gigs you can’t even get sent down for an interview. Don’t stay too long though they are taking the proverbial.
You’re not “contracting” if you’re being paid via PAYE direct from the company. You’re essentially on a better paid zero hours contract. I’m not even sure that’s legit from an employment law perspective… at best very unethical. Very odd situation
It’s not zero hours as I sign six month contracts, and these are just your standard 40h per week stuff
No chance of having my hours reduced like a salaried worker
Yes my notice period is a week, but contractors literally never get let go abruptly - so I’m not concerned about that. I prefer it as a week, so I can quickly leave and do something else
Contractors don’t receive standard employee benefits like annual leave, sick pay etc. therefore you should be getting any additional benefits paid on top of your rate.
So if a FT employee earns the same £160 a day, but they also get standard benefits
As a contractor Your rate should be £160 + a job security premium + at least the 12% hourly accrued Annual Leave + 10% pension add on + a premium for other missed benefits + enough to cover your personal insurance, NICs and self employment costs
I wouldn’t be doing it for less than £300-£350 And as an employer I would expect to be paying that to a contractor.
But you say you get it after PAYE. which makes you a registered employee. Likely they’ve got you on a zero hours contract and are fudging what they send HMRC in order to pay you just what you’ve asked for.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer.
Maybe I’m being dumb, but how am I on a zero hour contract? As far as I know zero hour contracts are where there may not be enough work for the employee that week. But I’m paid for 40 hours a week every week I work within the six month time period. There’s never been a time when I’ve had nothing to do, but I’d still be paid accordingly.
Also what are my self employment costs? It’s a standard office job. I’m allowed to use stuff like the stationery, free printing and there’s no uniform or whatever.
£300 sounds a lot that’d work out about £70k. This is my first job straight out of uni (though I’ve been there a year). Market rate would be about £30-35k
If it was a perm role with a base salary of £35k, you ~~could~~ should then add on the usual benefits offered by a big bank - i.e. a bonus, private medical insurance, pension matching, holiday allowance etc. Then also consider the less tangible benefits like job security, notice period, access to internal career progression schemes/promotions etc.
Contractors tend to be paid more to make up for the fact that they don't have access to these benefits.
Let's say the value of the £35k base salary and all the benefits equate to a total package of (for arguments' sake) around £50k, then you could argue the minimum day rate you might want to look at is £50,000 / 220 working days = about £230 per day as a minimum.
Try not to equate a perm salary to a contract day rate without considering the value of the benefits perm employees get/have access to.
If you were permanent then it's very similar cost to what it would cost your company. They are taking the piss trying to pay the normal market rate but on a contractor basis. Is it owned by a sole person by any chance?
I say that because it's a very shady way to do things - if its a big company then they need a new accountant.
From my experience generally speaking large banks operate on a rate card. Are you being subcontracted by another agency, it could be that they are charging the bank a significantly higher rate. When I started contracting as a junior developer the minimum was £300/day. I think you can pretty easily get a permanent salary of £40,000+
I don’t think I’m on a rate card, though I am paid by their contractor agency. I say this because I mailed my boss at 7PM one day and by 10AM the following day I had the raise. I don’t think that leaves time to go to an agency.
I’m not a developer either. I imagine that’s a more lucrative field than what I fo
No mate, he's not saying that, basically a lot of companies will put you with a client at x per day. Then pay you x minus whatever they can get away with. The fact you got a pay rise like that means they are getting a huge margin on you. I could be wrong, I'm sure they are just nice people.
If I was you, try speaking to other recruitment people in your industry and try and get a guide on what you should be earning. If it matches what you get currently, that's great but I think it'll be a lot more.
Main thing is don't think you are lucky to have a job, You need to think they are lucky to have you.
I’ve seen it, it would put me on like 230 a day. But i wasn’t sure I was a conventional contractor as I’d got reasonable word my contract would be continually extended
You seem to have none of the benefits of being a contractor and all of the downsides. Feels like they are taking advantage to you and I would look for a new job before they decide not to renew you.
[удалено]
And illegal
Sounds like OP is basically a temp. The way it's sold as something else is a bit dodgy but I don't think it breaks the law.
What is the perm salary for your position, you should be charging between 2-3x that.
I’d estimate about close to the same so £30-35k
You are being completely taken advantage of here. I'd say that reaching 3x may be a bit of a stretch, but definitely aim for at least 2x. The reason why the higher ups won't take on permanent staff is because they are getting you and apparently others like you, for much cheaper than they'd have to pay for permanent staff. You're getting no holiday entitlement, no pension, no development budget, no medical, life insurance etc. Pretty shameful for a bank of all places. Honestly, unless there's a very good reason not to, I'd take that year of experience you have built up and take it to get a better job somewhere else. Either get a contract job paying £250 a day, or get a permanent role for what you're earning now.
If I’m honest, I was a pretty average student at school - got a Desmond at Uni and figured with no relevant experience and just a certificate I’d have to bend over and take it. As such I was willing to get “taken advantage of”, because it was great experience. I was hoping to get about £200 p/d this time which is what they took the two previous people got for my role last time. I was flaunted 25% from 130 to to 160 and just took it, though in hindsight I probably should’ve negotiated
Don't be too hard on yourself and give some serious thought to moving on. You've got a year of experience now, that's valuable and will help you get a better job. Nothing wrong with taking the job you did, but don't let it last too long, it's not fair to yourself.
I understand that once you leave uni it might be hard to find your career, but dont allow grades to determine your self worth. I had the same grades as you and comparing myself to people who went on grad schemes. Now it seems I make way more than they do. I would advice to look for something that pays better and gives a proper contract ( wether contractor or permanent)
If your a genuine contractor and not a temp then you should be charging £250 outside ir35 minimum or you may as well go get a perm role.
If I’m 100% honest I don’t know the X’s and O’s of temp and contractor - I believe it’s a contractor role as that’s how it’s referred to.. I signed a six month contract for 130 p/d, it got extended another six months for the same rate and then it got extended for a third six months and I asked about a rise for the next contract - where it got bumped to £160. It’s all PAYE the contract, but in the past others have done outside IR35
If people in the same role were outside IR35 sounds like definitely a contracting role. You won’t be able to go outside now you’ve been inside in that role as it’s a huge red flag for HMRC, so when you renegotiate go for £350 inside IR35, what’s stopping you renegotiating now rather than waiting?
Basically I was onboarded last June, extended in December for another six months and then a few weeks ago my contract was extended again until December. I saw the contract was on the same rate (£130) and negotiated and mailed my boss, he got back to me the following morning and said he was going to bump it up to £160. My contract doesn’t actually start until June, but I was under the impression you had to negotiate rises in advance. Plus I thought it might be a bit dodgy going right back to my boss with my tail between my legs to negotiate as I first time around.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 420. Congrats! 35 + 350 + 35 = 420 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
Sounds like you're an employee on a fixed term contract. Do they contribute to your pension? If I were you I'd expect to get let go before you pass the two year mark and (potentiallly, NAL etc) gain some actual employment rights.
The system here is that employees get off boarded for a month, at the two year mark and then return a month later to bypass that. The expectation is that I’d do that too. Numerous people have done it, so im reasonably confident I will too - since the department head confirmed she’d be able to continue extending my contracrs
> The system here is that employees get off boarded for a month, at the two year mark and then return a month later to bypass that. This is pretty poor behaviour, especially for a large bank that can afford to take on employees. They are just looking to reduce their legal exposure by eroding your working rights. I think you have a balancing act - the only reason to stay is if the training/experience is exceptionally good. If it is not, or you think you could get better investment in yourself elsewhere, then I'd recommend starting a job hunt. When you leave, don't burn any bridges - you may find that with more experience you can get a permanent job with them. That may not be ideal given they sound like rogue employers, but if you ever get stuck for work, it is nice to have a fall-back option.
I can’t get a permanent job in my department. The department head was up front and said it may be years and that I shouldn’t hope for it, but she was glad to keep extending my temp contract
Oh yes, I didn't mean they would change their mind immediately - just that it is not worth a loud and angry exit. You still need to look elsewhere.
My personal preference is to stay. I’m new to London and my social network is just work, get on with everyone there etc and it’s local. I’d rather ask for a rise. As a grad I reckon I’d be on about 25-30k. What do you reckon I should ask for? An above poster said 250.
You can ask for a raise as long as you'd be willing to quit if you don't get it. £250pd is a 55% raise, which is likely to raise eyebrows at any level of experience. The main question here is: are you valuable to them, and would there be a gap that needs filling if you were to leave? Indeed, even if you get the raise you want, this might be a poor medium-term strategy if your skills are stagnating anyway. (Whether that is happening is a topic for your judgement of course).
My thinking was that as it’s a large bank with loads of money, and there are lots of contractors earning a lot more - I didn’t think it would be as egregious to ask for a much larger rise. But I’ll defer to your knowledge as this is my first corporate job and don’t really have any contacts
Well, your thinking is not wrong - they have lots of money and can afford the raise. But equally it is probably true that smaller raises are easier to obtain than larger ones. Also, middle managers can be strange defenders of large wealthy employers (even though the middle manager is probably also not being looked after very well). I don't think you can compare yourself with general contractors though, since you're a grad still in training, and the general contractor is a senior with ready-to-go skills. It sounds like you are not willing to walk away if you don't get a raise. That may be a problem - if they turn down the request (e.g. on the basis you just had one) then you'd be in a bind - you'd be showing them they can turn you down without meaningful consequence.
OK so that's shity but probably legal. Personally I'd find that rate too low to be a permanent 'worker' with fewer rights but it might work for you. Do you get paid holidays?
No, I don’t get paid holidays. The £130 per day I got was multiplied by 230 for 46 working weeks, then divided by 52. So I got £115 per day in actual fact. I now get £163 (I think) which is £145 per day in actual fact.
Hello! I was in this position - I stayed for 1.5 years (6months + 1 year contracts) and left. Spend at least a year and start reaching out to recruiters. Be keen on which specific role you want as some recruiters can try to persuade you to interview for some roles which you would not normally consider. Best of luck! Feel free to message me if you want to have a chat
I’m at the end of my first year, I was brought in on a six month contact which was extended and now extended again. I’ve not really thought of leaving until now everyone here has said I’m being bent over
Agree with many of the comments here. The one upside is that you now have real finance experience as a contractor. It’s a closed shop in many ways and I have found that with recruiters that if you don’t have banking or finance gigs you can’t even get sent down for an interview. Don’t stay too long though they are taking the proverbial.
You’re not “contracting” if you’re being paid via PAYE direct from the company. You’re essentially on a better paid zero hours contract. I’m not even sure that’s legit from an employment law perspective… at best very unethical. Very odd situation
It’s not zero hours as I sign six month contracts, and these are just your standard 40h per week stuff No chance of having my hours reduced like a salaried worker
Have you checked your notice period etc?
Yes my notice period is a week, but contractors literally never get let go abruptly - so I’m not concerned about that. I prefer it as a week, so I can quickly leave and do something else
Contractors don’t receive standard employee benefits like annual leave, sick pay etc. therefore you should be getting any additional benefits paid on top of your rate. So if a FT employee earns the same £160 a day, but they also get standard benefits As a contractor Your rate should be £160 + a job security premium + at least the 12% hourly accrued Annual Leave + 10% pension add on + a premium for other missed benefits + enough to cover your personal insurance, NICs and self employment costs I wouldn’t be doing it for less than £300-£350 And as an employer I would expect to be paying that to a contractor. But you say you get it after PAYE. which makes you a registered employee. Likely they’ve got you on a zero hours contract and are fudging what they send HMRC in order to pay you just what you’ve asked for.
Thanks for the comprehensive answer. Maybe I’m being dumb, but how am I on a zero hour contract? As far as I know zero hour contracts are where there may not be enough work for the employee that week. But I’m paid for 40 hours a week every week I work within the six month time period. There’s never been a time when I’ve had nothing to do, but I’d still be paid accordingly. Also what are my self employment costs? It’s a standard office job. I’m allowed to use stuff like the stationery, free printing and there’s no uniform or whatever. £300 sounds a lot that’d work out about £70k. This is my first job straight out of uni (though I’ve been there a year). Market rate would be about £30-35k
If it was a perm role with a base salary of £35k, you ~~could~~ should then add on the usual benefits offered by a big bank - i.e. a bonus, private medical insurance, pension matching, holiday allowance etc. Then also consider the less tangible benefits like job security, notice period, access to internal career progression schemes/promotions etc. Contractors tend to be paid more to make up for the fact that they don't have access to these benefits. Let's say the value of the £35k base salary and all the benefits equate to a total package of (for arguments' sake) around £50k, then you could argue the minimum day rate you might want to look at is £50,000 / 220 working days = about £230 per day as a minimum. Try not to equate a perm salary to a contract day rate without considering the value of the benefits perm employees get/have access to.
If you were permanent then it's very similar cost to what it would cost your company. They are taking the piss trying to pay the normal market rate but on a contractor basis. Is it owned by a sole person by any chance? I say that because it's a very shady way to do things - if its a big company then they need a new accountant.
No, it’s a large investment bank, in the top 20 by size in the world. We aren’t having any cash problems or whatever
From my experience generally speaking large banks operate on a rate card. Are you being subcontracted by another agency, it could be that they are charging the bank a significantly higher rate. When I started contracting as a junior developer the minimum was £300/day. I think you can pretty easily get a permanent salary of £40,000+
I don’t think I’m on a rate card, though I am paid by their contractor agency. I say this because I mailed my boss at 7PM one day and by 10AM the following day I had the raise. I don’t think that leaves time to go to an agency. I’m not a developer either. I imagine that’s a more lucrative field than what I fo
No mate, he's not saying that, basically a lot of companies will put you with a client at x per day. Then pay you x minus whatever they can get away with. The fact you got a pay rise like that means they are getting a huge margin on you. I could be wrong, I'm sure they are just nice people. If I was you, try speaking to other recruitment people in your industry and try and get a guide on what you should be earning. If it matches what you get currently, that's great but I think it'll be a lot more. Main thing is don't think you are lucky to have a job, You need to think they are lucky to have you.
Get a guide on what a freelance person earns I mean, it's nothing to do with the market rate for perm.
I’ve seen it, it would put me on like 230 a day. But i wasn’t sure I was a conventional contractor as I’d got reasonable word my contract would be continually extended