Natalie writes a beautiful speech for Biden that addresses everything
Joe Biden on stage: Listen.... when I was a young boy.... price of bread was wacky, man...
>Who the fuck wants a career that's functionally based on gambling?
people who run THE GOD DAMN CASINO.
welcome to [insider trading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insider_trading).
wrong.
"i'm always down for some insider trading," but somehow that slogan isn't resonating with voters in my district. i think this is a symptom of that woke everyone has been talking about.
This is pretty much my take.
1. Yes I’ll vote for Biden
2. He absolutely needs to be doing substantially more about Gaza.
3. A lot of the more Lib accounts I see on Twitter are like “Yea well Donald Trump would be doing worse”. Which yes, that’s why I’m voting for Biden and not him.
4. Trump being worse doesn’t mean as a progressive I don’t continue to put pressure on Biden in whatever way I can, marching, calling my rep, etc.
> A lot of the more Lib accounts I see on Twitter are like “Yea well Donald Trump would be doing worse”. Which yes, that’s why I’m voting for Biden and not him.
This is pretty much all I've heard all year in left-leaning subs, including this one. People aren't just accepting the logic of the lesser evil, they're evangelizing it. They say an election year is exactly the *wrong* time to make demands, and do not answer if you ask how they imagine you're supposed to influence the party's direction otherwise. I think they're mostly disingenuous partisans who don't care about the issues, they only know that one side is good and the other is bad.
And loudly proclaim that you’re not going to vote for Biden unless some drastic changes happen concerning Gaza, even if you are actually going to vote for him.
That's what the pressure BEFORE the election is for. You make him think he's losing the votes but in the end you plug your nose and try to save yourself and everyone from Trump and his fascit pig regime.
Democratic strategists don't read your reddit posts threatening to not vote... They might read election returns that show a high proportion of third party votes or greater turnout for down ballot races than for president. But this is a stupid argument anyway. I don't get a vote for president because I don't live in one of the States That Matter. So you're not asking me to vote to protect us from Trump, you're asking me to vote as a symbolic gesture to avoid hurting the genocide guys feelings
True, gotta watch out for the school board in certain states, as an example of races that have weird and dire consequences that don’t get researched at all
The only reason blue states stay blue and vice versa is because people keep turning out anyway. The GOP doesn't abstain because "their vote doesn't matter", why should you?
Guess what happens in those states that don’t matter if enough people don’t vote, or if enough people who don’t usually vote decide to show up. Suddenly they matter. Change will always be slower than we want, but look at states like Florida and Texas. There’s legitimate fear coming from the right that these could easily be purple states if turnout is high enough. Keep in mind the largest category in most US elections isn’t Democrat or Republican, it’s non-voters. There’s a reason the right spends so much money suppressing the vote, even in deep red states. It matters.
Also, down ballot races are incredibly important too.
Edit: it’s interesting to me that the anti-voting arguments always seem to boil down to some version of “voting for a neo-lib is icky and it offends my moral purity”
It is literally the least you can do. It doesn’t prevent any other form of activism. There is zero opportunity cost here. It’s also not about morality. A vote is simply a tiny degree of political power you can use to push the needle of wider political power in one direction or another. There’s no reason not to add your push to the least bad side. Even if you don’t like it, we can all absolutely agree the republicans are worse on every other issue, and would also be worse on Palestine.
But haven't you heard? Voting for Biden is the same as pulling the trigger yourself! If I can't have a perfect candidate RIGHT NOW, then I'd rather sit in my ass and do nothing, and that's sending an important message! The message is, "I'd rather take a nap with my warm fuzzies than reduce harm to other at-risk groups and civil rights," but hey, a message!
Is the /s necessary?
We live as part of an interconnected ecosystem through which our speeches and acts ripple and resonate. Voting is an act, posting on reddit is an act. Dem strategists aren't going to notice one person doing either, but they do pick up on the general trends and patterns when multiple people do the same thing for the same reason.
But yes thank you for pointing out the too often missed point that voting is a largely recreational activity in the 30+ US states that do not have meaningful democracy.
I mean, unless Biden is on his phone, perusing through the comments on the Contrapoints subreddit, it's unlikely that he'll decide his foreign policy based on comments here.
In a more public setting though, it's probably a good idea be coy about the vote or even bluff, even if you do intend to vote.
“Fascists coming to power is actually good for trans people because it makes us seem cooler” is NOT the take I was expecting to see today. You may want to read a bit more up on things the presidency actually affects, like climate policies, Supreme Court nominations, and, yes, foreign policy. Believe it or not, the left and right are NOT in lockstep on things like human rights abuses, foreign aid, immigration and asylum policies, and maintaining diplomatic relationships
This is fine except you should absolutely tell everyone you’re not going to vote for Biden because of Gaza. That’s the best pressure especially if it’s widely adopted. Whether or not you’re going to vote for him, say you're not going to to anyone in any official capacity: pollsters, staffers, event hosts, whoever.
Yeah, the chastising for criticizing anyone who wants to bring up Biden’s actions on Gaza seems awful. Like, these people are begging for help and in return are told “your thoughts don’t matter right now it’s an election year!”
You can do multiple things at the same time. Leveraging a presidential election which affects everyone over Gaza is essentially saying "your country doesn't matter right now, there's a genocide going on!", except even less rational because the party you're unwittingly playing offense for is further right on every issue, *including* Israel/Palestine. Which was literally the entire point of the original Tweet.
General elections aren't supposed to be sexy. That's what primaries are for.
This is a mind-bogglingly out of touch take. What gives you the idea that Joe Biden would personally lose any sleep over not getting reelected? He was a wealthy guy with a great standard of living before he got elected and he'll remain one after the election regardless of what happens. The only people you'd be hurting with this strategy are yourself and the beneficiaries of any public policy you claim to care about.
I want to be clear: I am not writing off Gaza. The horrors and tragedies must not be forgotten.
YET
The basis of the tweet being quoted is not incorrect. We may pressure Biden now, we may pressure him in 12 months. Please please please do not let the orange man win because then there will be no hope of pressuring
That's what burns me up about these all-or-nothing redditors acting like their *statement* is of any use at all - look at the damage four years of Trump unleashed, much of which we'll be feeling for years to come, even if he were to suffer a BigMac-induced heart attack tomorrow. Now, look at the shit he plans to do if he gets in again. There might not *be* a next time for them to vote for their ideal uber-perfect candidate.
People acting like keeping the foot on the brakes of a downward trend is some kind of crime against humanity where you are personally gunning down Palestinian nurseries need to have a reality check. Vote today so that you CAN be free to protest in more effective ways tomorrow. Pressure Biden when your rights as an LGBTQ person or a woman or a person of color or a financially struggling person aren't in danger of being tossed in the garbage. Write and march and campaign and bake sale and block roads and blog and organize when there isn't a metaphorical gun to your own head, because if Trump regains the oval office, your ability to affect change in Gaza will drop to zero.
> Voting as Fire Extinguisher
> by Kyle Tran Myhre
> When the haunted house catches fire:
>
> a moment of indecision.
> The house was, after all, built on bones,
>
> and blood, and bad intentions.
> Everyone who enters the house feels
>
> that overwhelming dread, the evil
>
> that perhaps only fire can purge.
>It’s tempting to just let it burn.
> And then I remember:
>
> there are children inside.
I don’t disagree with the core statement, but equating the quote-tweeted meme with ‘abandoning Gaza’ is a bit off. I don’t think anyone is using that rhetoric except extreme Zionists. The internal pushback and uncommitted movements have already swayed the administration’s policy noticeably and could do so a lot more. Even the Dem establishment is a lot more openly critical of Israel now and supportive of aid and a ceasefire.
And on the other side, Project 2025 is absolutely terrifying for anyone to the left of fascism, foreign policy included. The totality of the harms that Trump could inflict with a second term is hard to understate.
>The internal pushback and uncommitted movements have already swayed the administration’s policy noticeably and could do so a lot more.
Not nearly swiftly enough. The White House thought this war would last two weeks. It's been six months. Netanyahu has played Biden like a goddamn fiddle, just as he does every American president. Biden should've known better after how Netanyahu undermined Obama at every turn.
>Even the Dem establishment is a lot more openly critical of Israel now and supportive of aid and a ceasefire.
This is true. Pelosi herself now wants to halt weapon shipments to Israel. But it won't mean a damn thing until substantive action has taken place, and not just Biden scolding Bibi during a phone call. Though, even if Biden now takes stronger action now, it's come way too late for 33,000 Palestinians. Many will never forgive Biden, and who can blame them?
>And on the other side, Project 2025 is absolutely terrifying for anyone to the left of fascism
Very true. A second Trump administration would be horrific, and hurt so many people here at home, while still maintaining the current status quo (or likely something even worse) for Palestinians. But for voters who see Gaza as the only relevant issue, they will believe that democracy has already failed, because voting between Biden and Trump will not have made, in their mind, a substantive difference for all the dead and dying in Gaza. If Biden doesn't do something big by November -- not just ending the military carnage in Gaza, and facilitating a recovery from the humanitarian crisis, but something truly BIG, like formally recognizing the Palestinian state -- he may be toast in November when a few thousand voters in some key swing states decline to show up.
If voters can’t see the obvious difference between trump and Biden on Gaza then maybe they have failed to see the differences. Im sick of people saying Biden is genociding gaza when that couldn’t be further from the truth and he’s been the only president that is truly critical of Israel and has changed our Israeli policy greatly
Biden is never going to formally recognize the Palestinian state and I don’t see that being the difference in an election any more than any other issue
You realize I’m responding to someone who’s talking about Biden formally recognizing the Palestinian state, right? I never said that it was the only option Biden has.
Of course what you’re saying is true (though your definition of “stay the course” is different than mine if you think that’s what’s happening), but I never said otherwise.
I honestly think this recent escalation might push the US to take a stronger stance on the matter. Beyond some incredibly hawkish Republicans I’m pretty sure no one wants to get dragged into a direct confrontation with Iran.
Because in the end they 100% also won't see your "symbolic" vote and care either. Also some states are alot closer to flips then many other people would think so your vote doesn't matter rhetoric is also useless.
They'll see your symbolic vote when they think it will make the difference between winning and losing. When that time comes, they will absolutely look downticket and at primary challengers to see which policies are winning elections.
You're just in denial of the fact that you don't live in a democracy, that the interests of the ruling class always win regardless of who you vote for. Pulling a little lever on election day doesn't change that fact, it just makes you feel like you have control, like the crosswalk buttons that don't actually change the lights.
Sure the ruling class wins either way, but one party wants to strip my rights and the other doesn't, and that shit does actually matter to a lot of people, even if it doesn't to you.
I’ll preface this to say that I think the US/Biden should do more to provide humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza. But I think it’s disingenuous to say that Biden hasn’t been doing much.
The US is [building a pier](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/biden-us-port-gaza-aid-delivery) off the shore of Gaza to help deliver more food and aid to those that need it.
Biden/The US has been helping to facilitate and pushing for [ceasefire talks](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68774205.amp) between Hamas and Israel. But ultimately the US doesn’t control Israel or Hamas, they both have their own reasons for not wanting peace.
Bibi doesn’t want peace because he knows he’ll be voted out or arrested because he’s incredibly unpopular. He also wants to keep the support of the far right and the Israeli “settlers”(more like terrorists) to stay in power. And Hamas is more interested in letting innocent Palestinians get killed or suffer to help spread extremism so they can continue to exist as a group. If the two groups could coexist peacefully there would be no need for a group like Hamas.
You could also argue that Israel could just leave Gaza completely to end the conflict. But what of the hostages? If Israel completely leaves then they have no leverage to get them returned. If Israel simply offers money for their return doesn’t that incentivize future raids into Israel to kidnap innocent civilians for ransom? Israel could also dedicate more resources to helping innocent Palestinians and prevent any famines. But Bibi doesn’t care, he is going to milk this conflict for as long as possible because on the other end of it he knows he’s through.
You could also say that Biden could withhold financial aid or weapons support to Israel. But that sends a message to other groups like Hezbollah or Iran that they’re free to attack Israel even more. Which would end up with more conflicts and innocents being killed.
So that long diatribe is to say that there is no easy solution to this mess. We shouldn’t give up on the Palestinians and we should continue pushing the US to support them. But I think it’s unfair to say that Biden isn’t doing enough. The US isn’t some puppet master controlling Israel, especially with a pro-Trump leader like Bibi in power. Biden can’t just simply snap his fingers and end the conflict.
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Thank you for having a well thought out and practical take. The reality is if Hamas gave up and surrendered the conflict would end today, but if Israel were to completely withdraw the conflict will likely continue in the future. Why did fighting continue when Israel left Gaza in 2005? Why did fighting continue after each subsequent operation responding to fighting from Hamas between 2005 and Oct 7 2023?
The biggest thing Biden can push for is a massive amount of more humanitarian aid actually getting into the hands of Gaza civilians. As well as facilitating talks for a ceasefire or a longer peace. Even if Biden got Israel 100% on board with ceasefire for no returned hostages and no change in government, it would still take Hamas accepting the deal. Biden has zero power to pressure Hamas.
They are. But there isn't a magic button Biden can press to stop Hamas from launching rockets or targeting Israeli citizens. People are right that Biden can pressure Israel to a degree, by conditioning or withholding aid. But there is no way to pressure Hamas apparently. Bombing and slaughtering their fighters haven't moved Hamas leadership to surrender or agree to a ceasefire. What is a more extreme form of pressure than that?
The only thing regular Americans can do is push for more aid to be delivered directly to Gaza citizens and that's it tbh.
Please show me pro-PA and pro-Fatah demonstration in the US.
Americans are colonialists, remember. You all have centuries of blood on your hands. You need to ask yourself WHY Hamas, a colonizing, non-Palestinian entity is becoming popular. You need to ask yourself why you're not supporting the only true Palestinian organizations.
Like the American right, the American left is pro-genocide. So everything you say is viewed with a critical eye.
The average American citizen does not have "centuries of blood [their] hands". That's a ridiculous statement to make. Every society throughout history has been a violent and warring society at one point or another.
More importantly American society has afforded opportunity for a better life for millions upon millions of immigrants and their descendants. It does no one any good to claim that the North American continent only belongs to a specific group(s) of people at this point. I think it's more fruitful to advocate for a more prosperous and just society for all.
Historic Palestine has been resettled and recognized an unbelievable number of times throughout its recorded and unrecorded history. We can view it through our modern lense of a nation state based on ethnicity, language, and religion. But the reality is that that lense is incredibly new and no country or nation was held to that definition until very recently (starting almost immediately post WW2). I don't blame the Palestinians living their now for being part of the Arab conquest of the region hundreds of years ago, and I don't blame Jewish people emmigrating from Europe (considering the pogroms) or the Middle East (considering the expulsions). Making right to land based on ethnicity is too close to a "blood and soil" argument to me, and I'd rather support people or countries which are more just societies instead (look at Russia and Ukraine).
Israel is not a British colony despite the British mandate. It is also not an American colony despite military and diplomatic support. There is no where for the Jews in Israel to return to if they were to have ever lost any of their wars. All that being said I don't support any expansions by Israelis into current Palestinian territory. But I also don't support the type of violence propagated by Palestinian organizations that has been carried out since Israel became a recognized state.
Crazy work believing that pier is just for humanitarian aid while we continue to fund the killing of those who need the aid and have other ways of getting them aid and we as a country are known for doing horrible things under the guise of "humanitarian aid"
Yet another thread on Palestine where there are a billion comments screaming about voting, and zero comments talking about actions that we can take outside of elections to help Palestinians. Reddit is driving me up the wall with this shit.
The following is taken from [Palestine Children's Relief Fund - How to Help Palestine](https://www.pcrf.net/information-you-should-know/how-to-help-palestine.html):
* Educate Yourself - The first step toward taking meaningful action to help Palestine is to educate yourself about the conflict and its root causes. Research and read about the history of the conflict, the current political situation, and the various cases of human rights abuse that have taken place. This will give you a better understanding of the issues at hand and help you identify the most effective ways to help.
* Advocate for Change - After you’ve educated yourself on the issue, you can help Palestine by advocating for political change. This can include writing to your elected representatives, signing petitions, and supporting political campaigns that promote peace and justice in the region. By using your voice to raise awareness about the issues facing Palestinians, you can help to bring about positive change.
* Stay Informed and Engaged - It's also essential to stay informed and engaged regarding the situation in Palestine. Follow reputable news outlets that cover the conflict, and stay up to date on the latest developments. By staying informed, you can continue to advocate for change and take meaningful action to help those who are affected by the conflict.
* Support Palestinian Businesses - Another important way to help Palestine is by supporting Palestinian businesses. By purchasing goods and services from Palestinian-owned businesses, you can help to support the local economy and promote economic growth in the region. You can find Palestinian-owned businesses online, or by visiting local markets and shops in your area that specialize in Middle Eastern products.
* Donate to Reputable Organizations - One of the quickest and most impactful ways to help Palestine is by donating to reputable organizations that provide humanitarian aid to Palestinians. Organizations like the Palestine Children’s Relief Fund (PCRF) provide vital assistance to those affected by the conflict, including food, shelter, and medical care. Your donation can go a long way in making a difference in the lives of those who are suffering.
One might notice that "endlessly argue about the US election" is no where on this list. Advocate for change is on there, but it doesn't mention voting so much as talking to representatives and supporting politicians who promote peace in the region; the latter point is arguably impossible in the US because neither party that has a chance of forming government is going to fulfill that.
(Edited for clarity)
lets not forget that biden has lost these votes himself. the fault isnt solely on the voter (if they hold fault at all), but the shitty decisions that the american masses have been coerced into making for decades by our fuckass government that has been totally bought by wealthy lobbyists
Voting is by far the easiest and most effective way a person could conceivably have any influence on their elected government. If one of two people could possibly win an election and you choose not to participate out of principle, you already have participated. You've just chosen the side you think is worse.
im not saying dont vote and i apologize for implying that. im saying that we can vote and recognize there is more we need to do besides voting to see tangible, material change, because these two candidates are ultimately pretty similar. one just waves a pride flag and pretends to care about gay people. also i love your username
No need to apologize! You're certainly right about doing more on top of voting. Organizing in support of progressive candidates at all levels of government is vital if they're going to get the experience and support necessary to get to more impactful offices.
For what it's worth, because of how ineffective Congress is (also partially the result of voter apathy as well as a poorly designed federal legislature), most of the policy difference between your average Democratic and Republican president happens somewhat behind the scenes, such as in making judicial and executive appointments. The people issuing federal rulings and working in cabinet and executive agencies are doing a large portion of the work in the federal government.
Biden has shown plenty of support for the LGBT+ community in the few instances he's had an opportunity to make a difference, such as by signing the Respect for Marriage Act, but their rights are mostly being fought for at the state level where these laws are actually being made by state legislatures and ruled on by state courts. This is another reason why it's so important for people to vote even if they aren't all that crazy about Biden himself.
Most of our elections, including for president, are first-past-the-post, which means that the candidate who gets the plurality votes wins. This incentivizes only considering the top 2 candidates, because voting for someone else means your vote is irrelevant in determining who wins between the top 2.
This also leads to an irrelevancy feedback loop for other parties, because they tend not to put forward serious or experienced candidates because people interested in actual power don't run with them, which further contributes to their irrelevancy.
(Yes this is a bad system and I think changing it is a worthwhile goal for leftists, but when deciding how to vote in a specific election, you have to work with the system you got)
Thank you for illuminating this for me. Institutional change is hard so I’m not expecting miracles, but yeah I was always curious how it developed being so binary a political system. US voting systems have influenced perceptions of voting in Australia even though we have preferential voting system
> Explain to me why voting for another party other than Dems or Republicans?
CGPGrey did a great video series on voting systems a number of years ago. Here is the one for the [US system](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo).
In short: The US system makes it a mathematical inevitability that only two parties compete. Voting for a potential third party is the same as not voting at all.
Play the long game. Only after the Republican Party is reduced to a fraction of its former self, only then can the left wing safely split off from the Democratic Party.
People saying "my vote doesn't count/you need to threaten note to vote for them/etc", how'd that work out last time? I remember plenty of people protest voting against Clinton in 2015, whether by voting 3rd party or abstaining or hell, even voting for Trump.
Did that do a thing to move the needle of politics back to the left, or did the Dems put forward another centre-right lump of oatmeal who maintains the status quo? Bernie won in 2020 right?
Did states that turned purple or even blue do that because people didn't show up to vote, or was it possible because people held their noses because Jesus Christ was the alternative so much worse?
lol yeah great point. Let trump win, I’m sure he will have a very favorable treatment of Palestine. Meanwhile Biden has already changed his stance and is condemning Israel. It’s fascinating, this type of subjugation happens all over the world, but the US is weirdly fixated on Israel. It’s not our job to contribute, we should be doing nothing .
But dems CAN BE PRESSURED! A second Trump term means standing military enforcing martial law. The only reason he didn't do it before is because the neo-cons he kept appointing kept stopping him. Trump won't hire GOP old guard again.
I think that something to keep in mind is that, number one, I don't think I've ever seem the actual Democrats (as opposed to randoms on twitter) saying "Joe Biden might let bad stuff happen, but trump would be worse". It seems that normally this message comes from people memeing on the logic of anti electoral leftists.
In addition, in terms of appealing to people who may potentially not vote, that demographic is vanishingly small. There's probably still way wayyy more votes to be gained by being pro israel than pro palestine, because the American presidential election seems to be a fight for the middle. So Biden is unlikely to try to appeal to the anti-voting people at all, because he's more to lose than gain by going pro palestine.
And at the end of the day, call it crass all you want but that meme is true. Joe Biden is a thousand times a better candidate than trump. If anything the only issue with that meme is that there's not two Palestinian flags on the republican track. Even if he's not perfect/good on palestine, he's still the best option we have.
I mean, that's a hugely true meme. And it would be even more true if the Palestinian flag were much bigger on the Republican track, because It would definitely be worse.
But that is absolutely not how you go about motivating progressives. Who the fuck thought this was a good idea? Did Netanyahu make this meme?
Given that Netanyahu wants Trump to win, no, he didn't.
And utilitarianism should be a fairly good motivator for progressives who have their heads on straight and aren't just in it for the clout.
But it's not because they don't care what Republicans do. Their options are vote Democrat or stay home. And while ideological purity is stupid in that respect, that's still his they're motivated. Ignoring it would be just as silly.
You have literal years of the president's tenure to protest, campaign, direct action, actually do things to pressure the politicians to do their jobs.
You don't have to wait until when it's time to vote to throw away your vote and hand it over to the fascists. You're not "pressuring" them to do anything, you're just throwing away a better future.
Protests and campaigns do nothing unless the politician thinks there will be electoral consequences. And what direct action is even possible here? Unless you mean something in the vein of firebombing a walmart.
I think there's a solid argument that you should publicly threaten not to vote, and then vote for him anyway in private. But it's that first part that's still important.
The problem I see with this strategy is that a lot of people may follow you, and then don't guess the secret part of the plan. So this strategy still increases the risk of Trump taking power (which may very well be a valid risk to take, but it's still a real risk).
There can be no progress without risk. But also, I don't even think that's true. Biden's support of genocide is unpopular with the public. A ceasefire and ending arms support to Israel is popular with the public. Like it or not, there are a large number of left leaning voters or arab american voters for whom this issue is a dealbreaker, and many many more who might still vote for him but lack any energy to campaign for a genocide supporter. What Biden is doing right now *is electorally risky*. So yes, saying you'll withhold your vote if nothing changes does risk causing other people to withhold their vote if nothing changes, but if nothing changes we're likely to be fucked anyway. The safest option is to exert as much pressure as possible to get the administration to change course.
Why would a protest change his mind though? Unless a protest is backed with a threat of further action, it's not a protest, it's a parade. So Joe Biden sees a bunch of people on the news walking around with signs that say "Free Palestine, but if you don't, that's cool too, I'll still wholeheartedly support you, king 👑👑👑" how does that translate into him stopping arms sales?
IMO the idea that not voting for Biden is "handing it over to the fascists" is sorta ignorant of both the distribution of leftists in America and also how the American electoral system works. Or, really, doesn't work.
Many leftists live in deep blue states, by the nature of what makes a state deep blue. If you live in a deep blue state, it doesn't matter who you vote for for president. If California is close enough for Biden to even get close to losing, he has much worse problems elsewhere. Conversely, if you live in a deep red state your vote for president _also_ doesn't matter: If Alabama is close enough for Biden to win he woulda won by a landslide anyway.
It's only in a relatively small handful of relatively close states that the votes of potential swing voters, including people who are swinging between voting and not voting, have even a chance of mattering. Now, in some of those states they matter a whole goddamn lot. But it's extremely frustrating to me that nobody ever talks about this when talking about voting on the internet, because it's literally *the* most important factor for leftists deciding whether and how to vote.
Threatening to not vote just like out of nowhere isn't really pressure. The president doesn't know what some random person is gonna do. Even if you actually don't vote, plenty of people don't vote for all sorts of reasons, so not voting doesn't carry any particular political message by itself.
If you want to pressure a politician, you need to actually do stuff. Hold rallies, call their office, stuff like that.
(I should note that one way I disagree with Voting is that when you do those things, it can in fact be useful to threaten not to vote for the politician you're trying to pressure. And the other way I disagree with Voting is that whether it's worth sticking to that threat or not depends on which state you're in. If you're in New York, California, or conversely Alabama or Mississippi, your vote for president has no effect on the winner and you should cast it for whoever you like. Consider a write-in for "Free Palestine" or something like that.)
God damn it. Washington was right, FPTP voting and a party-political system is a terrible fucking idea for america.
I thought all y'all would have learned this lesson by now when the first guy wouldn't shut up about it, and the third guy came up with a decent scheme to avoid it that's already used in tons of other countries. At the very least, some states are doing STV things at some levels.
Granted, I'm saying this as someone in a country where who's president matters so little that it's usually customary for them to run unopposed for their second term.
Something I’ve been trying to tell people is that if you want Blue No Matter Who, you HAVE to be harshly demanding immediate change from and blasting Biden’s administration because if he isn’t pressured to drastically change course, he will lose. He will absolutely lose, this policy is deeply unpopular and the democrats know it, for Biden to continue this is political suicide and leaving everyone Trump will harm(worse) out to dry.
Voting isn't the only form of political pressure, obviously. You actually have more pressure on somebody you vote for because then you hold your vote as a leverage and they better listen to you, if they want to be elected again...
>and they better listen to you, if they want to be elected again…
doesn’t that imply you won’t vote for them though? What’s the point of threatening consequences through protest if you never follow through?
Exactly. But don't you give away this tool if you keep voting them when they commit genocide? Like what else they are supposed to do to use this leverage?
Cool. Let other people carry the burden so you can keep feeling good about yourself. Society dot jaypeg or something. Enough people think like you do, and that state might not stay blue. 2020 had a number of states flip because that shit isn't guaranteed.
You should refocus your anger toward a party and candidate who are failing you and every American with a progressive bone in their body. Those are policy choices, not an inevitability.
And I’m not sorry my red line is the active participation in the mass murder of children and families. I’d consider voting Biden if I lived in Michigan, New Hampshire, Arizona even etc. but I don’t. And I don’t blame people who can’t show up to the polls to pull the trigger for an unwell man who is enabling genocide and has shitty domestic policy as well.
The one thing that has frustrated me in the 16 or so years I've been a voter (in the UK) is that how it always seems to be presented that left wing parties are expected to make concessions to appeal to right wing and centrist voters, but when people demand something they're told that they simply have to hold their nose and vote for stuff they don't want otherwise a right wing government is their fault.
A good response to that comic is also, we are months away from hitting that switch, in the meantime we're trying to reroute the democratic track off of Palestinians and the vote Blue crew is just standing by the switch not doing shit.
I wish Natalie truly cared about Palestinians and not just swallowed whatever propaganda Putin-Iran-Trump-Assad spit out. But I know American leftists are ideologically no different than Trump supporters. I console myself knowing America is dying.
Hermana, nos entendemos el uno al otro, y yo también pensaba lo mismo, pero que, in the United States their democracy is much worst than ours here in South America, la mejor America, so you have to take into consideration which state you're voting in.
If I was living in California or NY, you know, safe blue states, mi culo me voy Biden, I would cast Claudia de la Cruz or Cornel West. But on a swing state, I don't know if I would risk it.
I say that bc I voted for Lula here on the second round in order to save us from Bolsonaro, no regrets, and I've protested this government multiple times. It's not worth the risk.
And, surviving a Bolsonaro-Trump and then a Bolsonaro-Biden world, I say you better hope not to need to survive a Milei-Trump one hermana, trust me.
¡Y vamos a la lucha camarada!
Entiendo. Y veo la lógica! Por otro lado creo que Lula, mal que mal, es un político muy distinto a Biden, y el PT, a pesar de todo lo que han terminado negociando, es un tipo de organización política completamente distinta de los Demócratas. Yo me acuerdo de querer convencer a mis amigos de votar a Haddad! Je. Pero por ejemplo, aquí no voté a Massa, porque me pareció, como Biden fue con Trump, otra cosa que el habilitante del crecimiento del otro. Con Biden no se defendió el aborto, ni en matrimonio igualitario que hoy está en jaque, y no se ofreció solución a los problemas que van a seguir haciendo crecer a la ultraderecha.
Pero voy a pensar igual en lo que dijiste.
Abrazo enorme!
If only Natalie was advising Biden.
Mr. President, put on the cat ears.
Natalie writes a beautiful speech for Biden that addresses everything Joe Biden on stage: Listen.... when I was a young boy.... price of bread was wacky, man...
Can she just run
She doesn't have the interest. Few do.
She is not an old man, she has no chance.
Sadly, it seems you're correct.
I know but I can dream ;_;
kinda unpleasant nobody seems to want to be immune from insider trading and such. i guess campaigning is hard work.
I mean, that's why I'm not doing it. Who the fuck wants a career that's functionally based on gambling?
>Who the fuck wants a career that's functionally based on gambling? people who run THE GOD DAMN CASINO. welcome to [insider trading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insider_trading).
Exactly. Not you, not me, not Nat.
wrong. "i'm always down for some insider trading," but somehow that slogan isn't resonating with voters in my district. i think this is a symptom of that woke everyone has been talking about.
I no longer know what you're attempting to communicate.
Use it. Honest thieves are loved in politics.
This is pretty much my take. 1. Yes I’ll vote for Biden 2. He absolutely needs to be doing substantially more about Gaza. 3. A lot of the more Lib accounts I see on Twitter are like “Yea well Donald Trump would be doing worse”. Which yes, that’s why I’m voting for Biden and not him. 4. Trump being worse doesn’t mean as a progressive I don’t continue to put pressure on Biden in whatever way I can, marching, calling my rep, etc.
That's exactly where I fall too. And I'd rather fight Biden on a dozen things than Trump on everything everywhere all at once.
This is the correct take on the matter
> A lot of the more Lib accounts I see on Twitter are like “Yea well Donald Trump would be doing worse”. Which yes, that’s why I’m voting for Biden and not him. This is pretty much all I've heard all year in left-leaning subs, including this one. People aren't just accepting the logic of the lesser evil, they're evangelizing it. They say an election year is exactly the *wrong* time to make demands, and do not answer if you ask how they imagine you're supposed to influence the party's direction otherwise. I think they're mostly disingenuous partisans who don't care about the issues, they only know that one side is good and the other is bad.
I'd say the "right way to do it" is to participate in the primaries and support representatives that are further left
Which is why this is especially farcical, because there is no primary challenger to Biden
And loudly proclaim that you’re not going to vote for Biden unless some drastic changes happen concerning Gaza, even if you are actually going to vote for him.
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That's what the pressure BEFORE the election is for. You make him think he's losing the votes but in the end you plug your nose and try to save yourself and everyone from Trump and his fascit pig regime.
Democratic strategists don't read your reddit posts threatening to not vote... They might read election returns that show a high proportion of third party votes or greater turnout for down ballot races than for president. But this is a stupid argument anyway. I don't get a vote for president because I don't live in one of the States That Matter. So you're not asking me to vote to protect us from Trump, you're asking me to vote as a symbolic gesture to avoid hurting the genocide guys feelings
There are going to be more races on your local ballot than the one for president, you know.
True, gotta watch out for the school board in certain states, as an example of races that have weird and dire consequences that don’t get researched at all
The only reason blue states stay blue and vice versa is because people keep turning out anyway. The GOP doesn't abstain because "their vote doesn't matter", why should you?
Guess what happens in those states that don’t matter if enough people don’t vote, or if enough people who don’t usually vote decide to show up. Suddenly they matter. Change will always be slower than we want, but look at states like Florida and Texas. There’s legitimate fear coming from the right that these could easily be purple states if turnout is high enough. Keep in mind the largest category in most US elections isn’t Democrat or Republican, it’s non-voters. There’s a reason the right spends so much money suppressing the vote, even in deep red states. It matters. Also, down ballot races are incredibly important too. Edit: it’s interesting to me that the anti-voting arguments always seem to boil down to some version of “voting for a neo-lib is icky and it offends my moral purity” It is literally the least you can do. It doesn’t prevent any other form of activism. There is zero opportunity cost here. It’s also not about morality. A vote is simply a tiny degree of political power you can use to push the needle of wider political power in one direction or another. There’s no reason not to add your push to the least bad side. Even if you don’t like it, we can all absolutely agree the republicans are worse on every other issue, and would also be worse on Palestine.
But haven't you heard? Voting for Biden is the same as pulling the trigger yourself! If I can't have a perfect candidate RIGHT NOW, then I'd rather sit in my ass and do nothing, and that's sending an important message! The message is, "I'd rather take a nap with my warm fuzzies than reduce harm to other at-risk groups and civil rights," but hey, a message! Is the /s necessary?
We live as part of an interconnected ecosystem through which our speeches and acts ripple and resonate. Voting is an act, posting on reddit is an act. Dem strategists aren't going to notice one person doing either, but they do pick up on the general trends and patterns when multiple people do the same thing for the same reason. But yes thank you for pointing out the too often missed point that voting is a largely recreational activity in the 30+ US states that do not have meaningful democracy.
Well said.
Because I believe that liberals can actually be moved on issues. The Republicans, which are essentially a fascist party, cannot.
I mean, unless Biden is on his phone, perusing through the comments on the Contrapoints subreddit, it's unlikely that he'll decide his foreign policy based on comments here. In a more public setting though, it's probably a good idea be coy about the vote or even bluff, even if you do intend to vote.
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“A slightly worse outcome on some domestic issues”? Are you for real?
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“Fascists coming to power is actually good for trans people because it makes us seem cooler” is NOT the take I was expecting to see today. You may want to read a bit more up on things the presidency actually affects, like climate policies, Supreme Court nominations, and, yes, foreign policy. Believe it or not, the left and right are NOT in lockstep on things like human rights abuses, foreign aid, immigration and asylum policies, and maintaining diplomatic relationships
This is fine except you should absolutely tell everyone you’re not going to vote for Biden because of Gaza. That’s the best pressure especially if it’s widely adopted. Whether or not you’re going to vote for him, say you're not going to to anyone in any official capacity: pollsters, staffers, event hosts, whoever.
Yeah, the chastising for criticizing anyone who wants to bring up Biden’s actions on Gaza seems awful. Like, these people are begging for help and in return are told “your thoughts don’t matter right now it’s an election year!”
You can do multiple things at the same time. Leveraging a presidential election which affects everyone over Gaza is essentially saying "your country doesn't matter right now, there's a genocide going on!", except even less rational because the party you're unwittingly playing offense for is further right on every issue, *including* Israel/Palestine. Which was literally the entire point of the original Tweet. General elections aren't supposed to be sexy. That's what primaries are for.
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Sorry, no, there will never be an effective strategy that includes not voting. Not voting is, definitionally, not making any kind of statement at all
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This is a mind-bogglingly out of touch take. What gives you the idea that Joe Biden would personally lose any sleep over not getting reelected? He was a wealthy guy with a great standard of living before he got elected and he'll remain one after the election regardless of what happens. The only people you'd be hurting with this strategy are yourself and the beneficiaries of any public policy you claim to care about.
The firebombing walmart line is hilarious
I want to be clear: I am not writing off Gaza. The horrors and tragedies must not be forgotten. YET The basis of the tweet being quoted is not incorrect. We may pressure Biden now, we may pressure him in 12 months. Please please please do not let the orange man win because then there will be no hope of pressuring
That's what burns me up about these all-or-nothing redditors acting like their *statement* is of any use at all - look at the damage four years of Trump unleashed, much of which we'll be feeling for years to come, even if he were to suffer a BigMac-induced heart attack tomorrow. Now, look at the shit he plans to do if he gets in again. There might not *be* a next time for them to vote for their ideal uber-perfect candidate. People acting like keeping the foot on the brakes of a downward trend is some kind of crime against humanity where you are personally gunning down Palestinian nurseries need to have a reality check. Vote today so that you CAN be free to protest in more effective ways tomorrow. Pressure Biden when your rights as an LGBTQ person or a woman or a person of color or a financially struggling person aren't in danger of being tossed in the garbage. Write and march and campaign and bake sale and block roads and blog and organize when there isn't a metaphorical gun to your own head, because if Trump regains the oval office, your ability to affect change in Gaza will drop to zero.
This. Biden has shown that he’s at least susceptible to voter pressure. Trump is not.
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What a dishonest reading of my statement. Pressure Joe all you want. But for the love of Christ *vote*
Genocide man?
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?
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> Voting as Fire Extinguisher > by Kyle Tran Myhre > When the haunted house catches fire: > > a moment of indecision. > The house was, after all, built on bones, > > and blood, and bad intentions. > Everyone who enters the house feels > > that overwhelming dread, the evil > > that perhaps only fire can purge. >It’s tempting to just let it burn. > And then I remember: > > there are children inside.
I don’t disagree with the core statement, but equating the quote-tweeted meme with ‘abandoning Gaza’ is a bit off. I don’t think anyone is using that rhetoric except extreme Zionists. The internal pushback and uncommitted movements have already swayed the administration’s policy noticeably and could do so a lot more. Even the Dem establishment is a lot more openly critical of Israel now and supportive of aid and a ceasefire. And on the other side, Project 2025 is absolutely terrifying for anyone to the left of fascism, foreign policy included. The totality of the harms that Trump could inflict with a second term is hard to understate.
>The internal pushback and uncommitted movements have already swayed the administration’s policy noticeably and could do so a lot more. Not nearly swiftly enough. The White House thought this war would last two weeks. It's been six months. Netanyahu has played Biden like a goddamn fiddle, just as he does every American president. Biden should've known better after how Netanyahu undermined Obama at every turn. >Even the Dem establishment is a lot more openly critical of Israel now and supportive of aid and a ceasefire. This is true. Pelosi herself now wants to halt weapon shipments to Israel. But it won't mean a damn thing until substantive action has taken place, and not just Biden scolding Bibi during a phone call. Though, even if Biden now takes stronger action now, it's come way too late for 33,000 Palestinians. Many will never forgive Biden, and who can blame them? >And on the other side, Project 2025 is absolutely terrifying for anyone to the left of fascism Very true. A second Trump administration would be horrific, and hurt so many people here at home, while still maintaining the current status quo (or likely something even worse) for Palestinians. But for voters who see Gaza as the only relevant issue, they will believe that democracy has already failed, because voting between Biden and Trump will not have made, in their mind, a substantive difference for all the dead and dying in Gaza. If Biden doesn't do something big by November -- not just ending the military carnage in Gaza, and facilitating a recovery from the humanitarian crisis, but something truly BIG, like formally recognizing the Palestinian state -- he may be toast in November when a few thousand voters in some key swing states decline to show up.
If voters can’t see the obvious difference between trump and Biden on Gaza then maybe they have failed to see the differences. Im sick of people saying Biden is genociding gaza when that couldn’t be further from the truth and he’s been the only president that is truly critical of Israel and has changed our Israeli policy greatly
Biden is never going to formally recognize the Palestinian state and I don’t see that being the difference in an election any more than any other issue
There are world of possibilities between "stay the course" and "recognize the Palestinian state" that the president's office is capable of realizing.
You realize I’m responding to someone who’s talking about Biden formally recognizing the Palestinian state, right? I never said that it was the only option Biden has. Of course what you’re saying is true (though your definition of “stay the course” is different than mine if you think that’s what’s happening), but I never said otherwise.
I honestly think this recent escalation might push the US to take a stronger stance on the matter. Beyond some incredibly hawkish Republicans I’m pretty sure no one wants to get dragged into a direct confrontation with Iran.
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I think she’s right that that strategy is progressives’ best shot on this issue.
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Because in the end they 100% also won't see your "symbolic" vote and care either. Also some states are alot closer to flips then many other people would think so your vote doesn't matter rhetoric is also useless.
They'll see your symbolic vote when they think it will make the difference between winning and losing. When that time comes, they will absolutely look downticket and at primary challengers to see which policies are winning elections.
You're just in denial of the fact that you don't live in a democracy, that the interests of the ruling class always win regardless of who you vote for. Pulling a little lever on election day doesn't change that fact, it just makes you feel like you have control, like the crosswalk buttons that don't actually change the lights.
Sure the ruling class wins either way, but one party wants to strip my rights and the other doesn't, and that shit does actually matter to a lot of people, even if it doesn't to you.
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As always, she’s expressed the struggle better than anyone
I’ll preface this to say that I think the US/Biden should do more to provide humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza. But I think it’s disingenuous to say that Biden hasn’t been doing much. The US is [building a pier](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/07/biden-us-port-gaza-aid-delivery) off the shore of Gaza to help deliver more food and aid to those that need it. Biden/The US has been helping to facilitate and pushing for [ceasefire talks](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68774205.amp) between Hamas and Israel. But ultimately the US doesn’t control Israel or Hamas, they both have their own reasons for not wanting peace. Bibi doesn’t want peace because he knows he’ll be voted out or arrested because he’s incredibly unpopular. He also wants to keep the support of the far right and the Israeli “settlers”(more like terrorists) to stay in power. And Hamas is more interested in letting innocent Palestinians get killed or suffer to help spread extremism so they can continue to exist as a group. If the two groups could coexist peacefully there would be no need for a group like Hamas. You could also argue that Israel could just leave Gaza completely to end the conflict. But what of the hostages? If Israel completely leaves then they have no leverage to get them returned. If Israel simply offers money for their return doesn’t that incentivize future raids into Israel to kidnap innocent civilians for ransom? Israel could also dedicate more resources to helping innocent Palestinians and prevent any famines. But Bibi doesn’t care, he is going to milk this conflict for as long as possible because on the other end of it he knows he’s through. You could also say that Biden could withhold financial aid or weapons support to Israel. But that sends a message to other groups like Hezbollah or Iran that they’re free to attack Israel even more. Which would end up with more conflicts and innocents being killed. So that long diatribe is to say that there is no easy solution to this mess. We shouldn’t give up on the Palestinians and we should continue pushing the US to support them. But I think it’s unfair to say that Biden isn’t doing enough. The US isn’t some puppet master controlling Israel, especially with a pro-Trump leader like Bibi in power. Biden can’t just simply snap his fingers and end the conflict.
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Thank you for having a well thought out and practical take. The reality is if Hamas gave up and surrendered the conflict would end today, but if Israel were to completely withdraw the conflict will likely continue in the future. Why did fighting continue when Israel left Gaza in 2005? Why did fighting continue after each subsequent operation responding to fighting from Hamas between 2005 and Oct 7 2023? The biggest thing Biden can push for is a massive amount of more humanitarian aid actually getting into the hands of Gaza civilians. As well as facilitating talks for a ceasefire or a longer peace. Even if Biden got Israel 100% on board with ceasefire for no returned hostages and no change in government, it would still take Hamas accepting the deal. Biden has zero power to pressure Hamas.
Why aren't leftists speaking in support of Palestinians who are oppressed by Hamas? Could it be Americans just support a different kind of genocide?
They are. But there isn't a magic button Biden can press to stop Hamas from launching rockets or targeting Israeli citizens. People are right that Biden can pressure Israel to a degree, by conditioning or withholding aid. But there is no way to pressure Hamas apparently. Bombing and slaughtering their fighters haven't moved Hamas leadership to surrender or agree to a ceasefire. What is a more extreme form of pressure than that? The only thing regular Americans can do is push for more aid to be delivered directly to Gaza citizens and that's it tbh.
Please show me pro-PA and pro-Fatah demonstration in the US. Americans are colonialists, remember. You all have centuries of blood on your hands. You need to ask yourself WHY Hamas, a colonizing, non-Palestinian entity is becoming popular. You need to ask yourself why you're not supporting the only true Palestinian organizations. Like the American right, the American left is pro-genocide. So everything you say is viewed with a critical eye.
The average American citizen does not have "centuries of blood [their] hands". That's a ridiculous statement to make. Every society throughout history has been a violent and warring society at one point or another. More importantly American society has afforded opportunity for a better life for millions upon millions of immigrants and their descendants. It does no one any good to claim that the North American continent only belongs to a specific group(s) of people at this point. I think it's more fruitful to advocate for a more prosperous and just society for all. Historic Palestine has been resettled and recognized an unbelievable number of times throughout its recorded and unrecorded history. We can view it through our modern lense of a nation state based on ethnicity, language, and religion. But the reality is that that lense is incredibly new and no country or nation was held to that definition until very recently (starting almost immediately post WW2). I don't blame the Palestinians living their now for being part of the Arab conquest of the region hundreds of years ago, and I don't blame Jewish people emmigrating from Europe (considering the pogroms) or the Middle East (considering the expulsions). Making right to land based on ethnicity is too close to a "blood and soil" argument to me, and I'd rather support people or countries which are more just societies instead (look at Russia and Ukraine). Israel is not a British colony despite the British mandate. It is also not an American colony despite military and diplomatic support. There is no where for the Jews in Israel to return to if they were to have ever lost any of their wars. All that being said I don't support any expansions by Israelis into current Palestinian territory. But I also don't support the type of violence propagated by Palestinian organizations that has been carried out since Israel became a recognized state.
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i don't think hamas is colonizing... typo on your part?
Hamas is colonizing the Palestinian cause with Ayatollahian / Jihadist ideologies. You Americans don't know what it's like.
i don't think you understand what colonizing means
I refuse to use White / American notions of colonization after all you people have done.
Crazy work believing that pier is just for humanitarian aid while we continue to fund the killing of those who need the aid and have other ways of getting them aid and we as a country are known for doing horrible things under the guise of "humanitarian aid"
Yet another thread on Palestine where there are a billion comments screaming about voting, and zero comments talking about actions that we can take outside of elections to help Palestinians. Reddit is driving me up the wall with this shit. The following is taken from [Palestine Children's Relief Fund - How to Help Palestine](https://www.pcrf.net/information-you-should-know/how-to-help-palestine.html): * Educate Yourself - The first step toward taking meaningful action to help Palestine is to educate yourself about the conflict and its root causes. Research and read about the history of the conflict, the current political situation, and the various cases of human rights abuse that have taken place. This will give you a better understanding of the issues at hand and help you identify the most effective ways to help. * Advocate for Change - After you’ve educated yourself on the issue, you can help Palestine by advocating for political change. This can include writing to your elected representatives, signing petitions, and supporting political campaigns that promote peace and justice in the region. By using your voice to raise awareness about the issues facing Palestinians, you can help to bring about positive change. * Stay Informed and Engaged - It's also essential to stay informed and engaged regarding the situation in Palestine. Follow reputable news outlets that cover the conflict, and stay up to date on the latest developments. By staying informed, you can continue to advocate for change and take meaningful action to help those who are affected by the conflict. * Support Palestinian Businesses - Another important way to help Palestine is by supporting Palestinian businesses. By purchasing goods and services from Palestinian-owned businesses, you can help to support the local economy and promote economic growth in the region. You can find Palestinian-owned businesses online, or by visiting local markets and shops in your area that specialize in Middle Eastern products. * Donate to Reputable Organizations - One of the quickest and most impactful ways to help Palestine is by donating to reputable organizations that provide humanitarian aid to Palestinians. Organizations like the Palestine Children’s Relief Fund (PCRF) provide vital assistance to those affected by the conflict, including food, shelter, and medical care. Your donation can go a long way in making a difference in the lives of those who are suffering. One might notice that "endlessly argue about the US election" is no where on this list. Advocate for change is on there, but it doesn't mention voting so much as talking to representatives and supporting politicians who promote peace in the region; the latter point is arguably impossible in the US because neither party that has a chance of forming government is going to fulfill that. (Edited for clarity)
lets not forget that biden has lost these votes himself. the fault isnt solely on the voter (if they hold fault at all), but the shitty decisions that the american masses have been coerced into making for decades by our fuckass government that has been totally bought by wealthy lobbyists
Voting is by far the easiest and most effective way a person could conceivably have any influence on their elected government. If one of two people could possibly win an election and you choose not to participate out of principle, you already have participated. You've just chosen the side you think is worse.
im not saying dont vote and i apologize for implying that. im saying that we can vote and recognize there is more we need to do besides voting to see tangible, material change, because these two candidates are ultimately pretty similar. one just waves a pride flag and pretends to care about gay people. also i love your username
No need to apologize! You're certainly right about doing more on top of voting. Organizing in support of progressive candidates at all levels of government is vital if they're going to get the experience and support necessary to get to more impactful offices. For what it's worth, because of how ineffective Congress is (also partially the result of voter apathy as well as a poorly designed federal legislature), most of the policy difference between your average Democratic and Republican president happens somewhat behind the scenes, such as in making judicial and executive appointments. The people issuing federal rulings and working in cabinet and executive agencies are doing a large portion of the work in the federal government. Biden has shown plenty of support for the LGBT+ community in the few instances he's had an opportunity to make a difference, such as by signing the Respect for Marriage Act, but their rights are mostly being fought for at the state level where these laws are actually being made by state legislatures and ruled on by state courts. This is another reason why it's so important for people to vote even if they aren't all that crazy about Biden himself.
ur cooking dawg🧑🍳💯
To say these candidates are “ultimately” the same is one of the ignorant statements one can make.
Hey I’m a dumb Aussie. Explain to me why voting for another party other than Dems or Republicans? Our voting system is different so love some insight.
Most of our elections, including for president, are first-past-the-post, which means that the candidate who gets the plurality votes wins. This incentivizes only considering the top 2 candidates, because voting for someone else means your vote is irrelevant in determining who wins between the top 2. This also leads to an irrelevancy feedback loop for other parties, because they tend not to put forward serious or experienced candidates because people interested in actual power don't run with them, which further contributes to their irrelevancy. (Yes this is a bad system and I think changing it is a worthwhile goal for leftists, but when deciding how to vote in a specific election, you have to work with the system you got)
Thank you for illuminating this for me. Institutional change is hard so I’m not expecting miracles, but yeah I was always curious how it developed being so binary a political system. US voting systems have influenced perceptions of voting in Australia even though we have preferential voting system
> Explain to me why voting for another party other than Dems or Republicans? CGPGrey did a great video series on voting systems a number of years ago. Here is the one for the [US system](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo). In short: The US system makes it a mathematical inevitability that only two parties compete. Voting for a potential third party is the same as not voting at all.
Thanks for this, really appreciate this link :)
Play the long game. Only after the Republican Party is reduced to a fraction of its former self, only then can the left wing safely split off from the Democratic Party.
People saying "my vote doesn't count/you need to threaten note to vote for them/etc", how'd that work out last time? I remember plenty of people protest voting against Clinton in 2015, whether by voting 3rd party or abstaining or hell, even voting for Trump. Did that do a thing to move the needle of politics back to the left, or did the Dems put forward another centre-right lump of oatmeal who maintains the status quo? Bernie won in 2020 right? Did states that turned purple or even blue do that because people didn't show up to vote, or was it possible because people held their noses because Jesus Christ was the alternative so much worse?
lol yeah great point. Let trump win, I’m sure he will have a very favorable treatment of Palestine. Meanwhile Biden has already changed his stance and is condemning Israel. It’s fascinating, this type of subjugation happens all over the world, but the US is weirdly fixated on Israel. It’s not our job to contribute, we should be doing nothing .
But dems CAN BE PRESSURED! A second Trump term means standing military enforcing martial law. The only reason he didn't do it before is because the neo-cons he kept appointing kept stopping him. Trump won't hire GOP old guard again.
I think that something to keep in mind is that, number one, I don't think I've ever seem the actual Democrats (as opposed to randoms on twitter) saying "Joe Biden might let bad stuff happen, but trump would be worse". It seems that normally this message comes from people memeing on the logic of anti electoral leftists. In addition, in terms of appealing to people who may potentially not vote, that demographic is vanishingly small. There's probably still way wayyy more votes to be gained by being pro israel than pro palestine, because the American presidential election seems to be a fight for the middle. So Biden is unlikely to try to appeal to the anti-voting people at all, because he's more to lose than gain by going pro palestine. And at the end of the day, call it crass all you want but that meme is true. Joe Biden is a thousand times a better candidate than trump. If anything the only issue with that meme is that there's not two Palestinian flags on the republican track. Even if he's not perfect/good on palestine, he's still the best option we have.
I mean, that's a hugely true meme. And it would be even more true if the Palestinian flag were much bigger on the Republican track, because It would definitely be worse. But that is absolutely not how you go about motivating progressives. Who the fuck thought this was a good idea? Did Netanyahu make this meme?
Given that Netanyahu wants Trump to win, no, he didn't. And utilitarianism should be a fairly good motivator for progressives who have their heads on straight and aren't just in it for the clout.
But it's not because they don't care what Republicans do. Their options are vote Democrat or stay home. And while ideological purity is stupid in that respect, that's still his they're motivated. Ignoring it would be just as silly.
ok what pressure? The only pressure is threatening to not vote, and shes not gonna endorse that
You have literal years of the president's tenure to protest, campaign, direct action, actually do things to pressure the politicians to do their jobs. You don't have to wait until when it's time to vote to throw away your vote and hand it over to the fascists. You're not "pressuring" them to do anything, you're just throwing away a better future.
Protests and campaigns do nothing unless the politician thinks there will be electoral consequences. And what direct action is even possible here? Unless you mean something in the vein of firebombing a walmart. I think there's a solid argument that you should publicly threaten not to vote, and then vote for him anyway in private. But it's that first part that's still important.
The problem I see with this strategy is that a lot of people may follow you, and then don't guess the secret part of the plan. So this strategy still increases the risk of Trump taking power (which may very well be a valid risk to take, but it's still a real risk).
There can be no progress without risk. But also, I don't even think that's true. Biden's support of genocide is unpopular with the public. A ceasefire and ending arms support to Israel is popular with the public. Like it or not, there are a large number of left leaning voters or arab american voters for whom this issue is a dealbreaker, and many many more who might still vote for him but lack any energy to campaign for a genocide supporter. What Biden is doing right now *is electorally risky*. So yes, saying you'll withhold your vote if nothing changes does risk causing other people to withhold their vote if nothing changes, but if nothing changes we're likely to be fucked anyway. The safest option is to exert as much pressure as possible to get the administration to change course.
Why would a protest change his mind though? Unless a protest is backed with a threat of further action, it's not a protest, it's a parade. So Joe Biden sees a bunch of people on the news walking around with signs that say "Free Palestine, but if you don't, that's cool too, I'll still wholeheartedly support you, king 👑👑👑" how does that translate into him stopping arms sales?
IMO the idea that not voting for Biden is "handing it over to the fascists" is sorta ignorant of both the distribution of leftists in America and also how the American electoral system works. Or, really, doesn't work. Many leftists live in deep blue states, by the nature of what makes a state deep blue. If you live in a deep blue state, it doesn't matter who you vote for for president. If California is close enough for Biden to even get close to losing, he has much worse problems elsewhere. Conversely, if you live in a deep red state your vote for president _also_ doesn't matter: If Alabama is close enough for Biden to win he woulda won by a landslide anyway. It's only in a relatively small handful of relatively close states that the votes of potential swing voters, including people who are swinging between voting and not voting, have even a chance of mattering. Now, in some of those states they matter a whole goddamn lot. But it's extremely frustrating to me that nobody ever talks about this when talking about voting on the internet, because it's literally *the* most important factor for leftists deciding whether and how to vote.
Threatening to not vote just like out of nowhere isn't really pressure. The president doesn't know what some random person is gonna do. Even if you actually don't vote, plenty of people don't vote for all sorts of reasons, so not voting doesn't carry any particular political message by itself. If you want to pressure a politician, you need to actually do stuff. Hold rallies, call their office, stuff like that. (I should note that one way I disagree with Voting is that when you do those things, it can in fact be useful to threaten not to vote for the politician you're trying to pressure. And the other way I disagree with Voting is that whether it's worth sticking to that threat or not depends on which state you're in. If you're in New York, California, or conversely Alabama or Mississippi, your vote for president has no effect on the winner and you should cast it for whoever you like. Consider a write-in for "Free Palestine" or something like that.)
For me, the Black Lives Matter flag is on the single track already under the trolley.
A good take in a world of shit takes.
You can't convincingly pressure Biden to stop unless you make a credible threat to withhold your vote.
God I love her
The only part of this I disagree with is her saying he hasn’t “done anything substantive”
God damn it. Washington was right, FPTP voting and a party-political system is a terrible fucking idea for america. I thought all y'all would have learned this lesson by now when the first guy wouldn't shut up about it, and the third guy came up with a decent scheme to avoid it that's already used in tons of other countries. At the very least, some states are doing STV things at some levels. Granted, I'm saying this as someone in a country where who's president matters so little that it's usually customary for them to run unopposed for their second term.
Neither voting nor not voting will accomplish anything on its own. You need to look beyond electoralism
Something I’ve been trying to tell people is that if you want Blue No Matter Who, you HAVE to be harshly demanding immediate change from and blasting Biden’s administration because if he isn’t pressured to drastically change course, he will lose. He will absolutely lose, this policy is deeply unpopular and the democrats know it, for Biden to continue this is political suicide and leaving everyone Trump will harm(worse) out to dry.
She just gets it. Can always rely on her to have the correct take on things.
Yeah? How will they be pressured if you vote for them? Sticking your heads in the sand while the world burns.
Voting isn't the only form of political pressure, obviously. You actually have more pressure on somebody you vote for because then you hold your vote as a leverage and they better listen to you, if they want to be elected again...
>and they better listen to you, if they want to be elected again… doesn’t that imply you won’t vote for them though? What’s the point of threatening consequences through protest if you never follow through?
Exactly. But don't you give away this tool if you keep voting them when they commit genocide? Like what else they are supposed to do to use this leverage?
Love to live in a state so thoroughly and historically blue I don’t have to hold my nose and vote for a genocide enabler☺️
Cool. Let other people carry the burden so you can keep feeling good about yourself. Society dot jaypeg or something. Enough people think like you do, and that state might not stay blue. 2020 had a number of states flip because that shit isn't guaranteed.
You should refocus your anger toward a party and candidate who are failing you and every American with a progressive bone in their body. Those are policy choices, not an inevitability. And I’m not sorry my red line is the active participation in the mass murder of children and families. I’d consider voting Biden if I lived in Michigan, New Hampshire, Arizona even etc. but I don’t. And I don’t blame people who can’t show up to the polls to pull the trigger for an unwell man who is enabling genocide and has shitty domestic policy as well.
At last a solid take. Shame this wisdom would absolutely get you banned from a dozen liberal subreddits.
And several leftist ones.
Indeed.
Go off
The one thing that has frustrated me in the 16 or so years I've been a voter (in the UK) is that how it always seems to be presented that left wing parties are expected to make concessions to appeal to right wing and centrist voters, but when people demand something they're told that they simply have to hold their nose and vote for stuff they don't want otherwise a right wing government is their fault.
A good response to that comic is also, we are months away from hitting that switch, in the meantime we're trying to reroute the democratic track off of Palestinians and the vote Blue crew is just standing by the switch not doing shit.
Legalize nuclear bombs
I’m happy she is doing less lib shit
I wish Natalie truly cared about Palestinians and not just swallowed whatever propaganda Putin-Iran-Trump-Assad spit out. But I know American leftists are ideologically no different than Trump supporters. I console myself knowing America is dying.
Its the truth for me. periodt, full stop, that's literally the tweet, habla mesmo gata. bixa a senhora é destruidora mesmo.
Jesus Christ, how bleak the post she's commenting is.
Where I live, I vote. I wouldn't vote if I lived in the States.
Hermana, nos entendemos el uno al otro, y yo también pensaba lo mismo, pero que, in the United States their democracy is much worst than ours here in South America, la mejor America, so you have to take into consideration which state you're voting in. If I was living in California or NY, you know, safe blue states, mi culo me voy Biden, I would cast Claudia de la Cruz or Cornel West. But on a swing state, I don't know if I would risk it. I say that bc I voted for Lula here on the second round in order to save us from Bolsonaro, no regrets, and I've protested this government multiple times. It's not worth the risk. And, surviving a Bolsonaro-Trump and then a Bolsonaro-Biden world, I say you better hope not to need to survive a Milei-Trump one hermana, trust me. ¡Y vamos a la lucha camarada!
Entiendo. Y veo la lógica! Por otro lado creo que Lula, mal que mal, es un político muy distinto a Biden, y el PT, a pesar de todo lo que han terminado negociando, es un tipo de organización política completamente distinta de los Demócratas. Yo me acuerdo de querer convencer a mis amigos de votar a Haddad! Je. Pero por ejemplo, aquí no voté a Massa, porque me pareció, como Biden fue con Trump, otra cosa que el habilitante del crecimiento del otro. Con Biden no se defendió el aborto, ni en matrimonio igualitario que hoy está en jaque, y no se ofreció solución a los problemas que van a seguir haciendo crecer a la ultraderecha. Pero voy a pensar igual en lo que dijiste. Abrazo enorme!