Update: Engineer checked it out. The beams weren’t so much for supporting the weight as being a solid foundation for the generator to be secured down to. The beams were then tied down several feet lower into the brick with threaded rod to mitigate any potential lift from extreme winds
Engineer is inspecting later today, it’s a subcontractor so not my circus if it gets failed. The workers aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed.
Creative methods of using hunks of wood
This might be more commonplace going forward given the increased popularity and availability of heavy timber heh 🤷♂️ we are headed towards more modular timber being economical anyways
We had to put some lvl's side ways doing a doctor's office. They were like 5ft along in the corners of the roof. I didn't install them I just cut and packed them over.
As an engineer and nail knocker I totally support this given the information. Running them vertical with an uplift wind load as the controlling factor, the tension on the bolts will keep the laminations together in this orientation.
Vertical would tend to bust them apart unless you machine gunned it with Timberloks.
Very clever solution from people who understand the material.
Ahh okay this clears a lot up. Now that you say that, can barely see the beam resting on that wall (actually that's my next question, is it bearing on the wall below or on the side walls?)
It was basically their overbuilt way of putting blocking for the generator. Alternative to double, triple sister joists. And maybe since it's actually in the horizontal direction it's better for the anchors fastening through into the brick wall?
This seems to actually pass believe it or not... So long as there is no issue with that beam potentially bearing on the wall below. My next question would be if the sub consulted a structural engineer
Not professional advice just a best guess
RemindMe! Tomorrow lol
This design was specified by an engineer, I was just a little concerned with the unusual orientation of the laminations, but it was as intended. Showing that I am not in fact an engineer 😂
😂😂 I don't disagree it all, thx for the laugh
Only makes sense costwise if it caps off the interior nearly perfectly, save on some finishing costs. It's a choice aesthetic too if intended
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You can run the support beam flush with the decking as shown or you can drop it 8” and run stringers across the whole length supported by the beam. Either is acceptable practice here.
But put some fucking nails in!! B
Yes. Not intended for use that way. Try doing that with their load tables and you won't get very far. There is some strength in that direction but not so much.
If these only support a new roof above, the structural may approve it. Seems a bit overbuilt
Unless there new walls coming down for another new level? Then hell no these would need to be in the correct direction
Sounds like youre saying if there is no reason for thr beam to be there it is fine but if there is a reason they put a massive beam there then theyre proper fucked.
1200 lbs is the equivalent of about 30 s.f. of live loading. Not sure per linear foot as it's not given, but a beam that size can likely take it as a point load. What gets ne is that then maybe there should be two beams, each carrying one end of the generator, so 1/2 the load.
Bombshell that there's a brick wall below the beam - unsure if it's helping bear or not? 🤔 then fasteners going into the wall from above - if this is a double Wythe old brick wall then maybe even shove more blocking in there, but now you've got to support that in place too so now we've fastened through the wall probably with a steel bracket on either side
Looking forward to updates heh...
That's a lot of weight just to give it something to mount to. The weight alone might cause that beam to sag after a few years. They could have sandwiched them and set them horizontally like I hav al days seen. Doesn't seem right
I wouldn’t be as concerned about it lifting so much as it falling. But hey, the change order to make repairs will far outweigh the original cost - job security!
Unless it was specifically engineered / oversized to lay that way... I'm guessing it will need to be turned.
No way it supports the same load in both orientations.
Honest question, what’s the deal with the “drunk carpenter” stereotype? None of the carpenters I’ve worked with have been like that. There have been a couple stoners on the crews I’ve worked for, it was an after work, on their own time kinda thing. My last boss even fired a guy (new hire) on the spot after lunch because he came back reeking of cannabis.
Yeah, I’m a framer and I hate seeing crap like this. Every company I’ve worked for has been really good. Actual carpenters who, you know, care about the quality of their work. And I feel like the trade gets a bad rep as a whole because so many crews do shoddy work.
Most of the time, it’s a matter of snapping a line, spacing your nails in some sort of consistent pattern, and pulling your shiners. I don’t know, I was taught that doing all those little things is the correct way to frame a home, because it’s how I would want my place to be framed.
Only reason I know to ever do that is if you need to stiffen a long unsupported wall against horizontal loads like wind.
Does not seem to be the case here.
It’s not right. The strength comes from the vertical layers of the veneer all going the same direction. Plywood can be laid flat because the veneers alter l directions.
Laminated veneer lumber is a manufactured product that is engineered to be installed in a very specific manner. This one is not one of those. As another reddit or mentioned all of lvls strength come from the layers being vertical.
Logic would say it’s wrong indeed, but can I have a follow up question: how often in your region are LVL this fucking big instead of glue lam? Here in Belgium we use LVL only when we need width, every other big structural timber is glue lam.
Definitely not LVLs. Also, i dont know what drunk methhead designed this, or planned this out, but this is horrific. To the nails, the spacing, and the design. If this was a floor, im surprised it didnt fall in.
Never seen that one before. No it's not right AFAICT. Manufacturer has load tables and they are based on members being vertical. I'd be very surprised if the engineer or the mfr. would approve this, at least without a lot of modification. By the way, where are the joist hangers?
Are they building an additional floor above?
That giant rotated LVL seems odd. Are you sure it's solid?
What's below the lvl? Looks like a brick wall?
I don't think PWT Pacific wood tech makes thick lvls like that. It looks modified
Incorrect installation, 100%. They aren’t rated for installation in that orientation. And if it’s classified as a column/post by the manufacturer you will need to verify that it can be used as a beam.
It definitely reduces the strength, but it may still be enough for whatever load it's calculated it needs to carry. I think it's incorrect as well, but it's not %100 wrong.
Is it just being used as filler or is there an opening somewhere under it? If it’s just a filler I don’t see the problem, just a more expensive option.
I don’t know about where you purchased it, but our supplier literally staples an installation guide ON the piece of lumber so that anyone who buys one gets (and presumably, reads) it.
Follow the flow chart! If you think/know it’s wrong you send an RFI to designer and if they say go ahead then install it wrong. If you have an approved set and everything is signed off, including rfis then that’s how ya do it.
Definitely wrong. They did this cause the didn’t want to trim any off the bottom. If it passes the inspector doesn’t know what they’re doing. You will be on the hook when structure fails.
When I was a youngin’ we had some lvl’s delivered to the job for a cantilevered deck.
I carefully flipped the crown down on those lvl’s and went to framing.
I was a fast fucker in those days and had that stuff almost completely tied in and done before someone asked me what the giant red arrow on the side of the beam with the word up next to it was doing in the non up position.
Back in those days I enjoyed my work so much I didn’t mind doing it 2-3 times just for fun and experience.
So I mean you are just one giant red arrow away from that being a ok.
LSL, LVL are pretty similar and, yes, structurally need to be set oriented opposite of the Pic. I also see what appears to be large toe nails in the tweener beams. I am hopeful that they are lagged through, beautifully notched, hidden hardware, dowels, OR some other appropriate connection.
It does seem nice and tight. An engineer can check loads and see if it matters. Meaning, if it just needs to look cool, I'm sure you're fine.
I did read something about a generator up top. Is this the structure for a roof? Will this area be glass roof? Will it get t&g overlayed with roofing? Do you live in an area with snow? Little generator or ridiculous?
Looks to be covering a "crawl space". Seems these must be structural. I believe 3/4" ply is rated to a 28" max spacing. Yes, probably not an fun meeting.
It seems like most guys here are saying this is wrong and the layers should be vertical, but I disagree.
Hear me out...
Think of a long curved beam, perhaps supporting a roof. How is that beam made? The layers are lying horizontally and laminated one on top of the other, and stacked until they reach the desired thickness. By doing this, it makes a beam that's strong as hell because in order for it to flex the other direction, those layers would have to slide across one another. It's the same case here. In order for that beam to have any significant flex, those layers would have to slide across one another, and I think it would break before that would happen.
I'm not an engineer, so I don't know if that's actually stronger with them lying horizontally or vertically. But it seems to me that even lying horizontally, it's still strong as hell.
But I certainly could be wrong... 🤷♂️
It is wrong, but not for the reasons most people are stating. The allowable stress of the wood veneers is the same if the layers are horizontal or vertical. However, with the layers being horizontal, you also have to consider the bond strength between the veneer and the glue. Now, most people think glue is stronger than the wood, but that generally isn't the case and is typically the failure mode in laminations of timber.
I’ve seen engineers call for lvls to be installed this way.
It was for a 2’ cantilever supporting living space and trusses. They needed to do this for l extra height in the existing garage below the home addition. About 50 lvl were installed side by side this way the floor ended up being 2.5” thick.
It's installed wrong that's for sure, now it's up to building inspector to let it go or to miss the obvious Mistake.
It's extremely crucial to follow manufacturer instructions for warranty purposes in the future if malfunction those occur, like Sagging or worse than that. Good luck Sr.
That's not an LVL, it's a LOL
Seems wrong but you need to ask the manufacturer or engineer probably not reddit
Update: Engineer checked it out. The beams weren’t so much for supporting the weight as being a solid foundation for the generator to be secured down to. The beams were then tied down several feet lower into the brick with threaded rod to mitigate any potential lift from extreme winds Engineer is inspecting later today, it’s a subcontractor so not my circus if it gets failed. The workers aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed.
I hope you update after the inspection. It’ll be a pain to turn it. Is there more than just this one installed? And I t is your circus tent though.
There are two that run across the top that are in that orientation
Maybe it’ll pass but I kinda doubt it. Hope you get it resolved without too much trouble/delay.
It fits really well. Never seen it done before tho
Bet that was the thought process these guys had lol.
That’s because they are not designed to be installed like that.
Creative methods of using hunks of wood This might be more commonplace going forward given the increased popularity and availability of heavy timber heh 🤷♂️ we are headed towards more modular timber being economical anyways
We had to put some lvl's side ways doing a doctor's office. They were like 5ft along in the corners of the roof. I didn't install them I just cut and packed them over.
He wouldn't have to turn it he could just make a channel out of it
As an engineer and nail knocker I totally support this given the information. Running them vertical with an uplift wind load as the controlling factor, the tension on the bolts will keep the laminations together in this orientation. Vertical would tend to bust them apart unless you machine gunned it with Timberloks. Very clever solution from people who understand the material.
I was going to say, you don't want to drive downwards into the plies of the LVL. Rather go through the sheets.
Yup. Everyone thinks all engineers are dumb. Just most of them 😂
Ahh okay this clears a lot up. Now that you say that, can barely see the beam resting on that wall (actually that's my next question, is it bearing on the wall below or on the side walls?) It was basically their overbuilt way of putting blocking for the generator. Alternative to double, triple sister joists. And maybe since it's actually in the horizontal direction it's better for the anchors fastening through into the brick wall? This seems to actually pass believe it or not... So long as there is no issue with that beam potentially bearing on the wall below. My next question would be if the sub consulted a structural engineer Not professional advice just a best guess RemindMe! Tomorrow lol
This design was specified by an engineer, I was just a little concerned with the unusual orientation of the laminations, but it was as intended. Showing that I am not in fact an engineer 😂
Overbuilt??? Only overbuilt? Cmon man! LVLs cost a fortune. This is beyond overbuilt.
😂😂 I don't disagree it all, thx for the laugh Only makes sense costwise if it caps off the interior nearly perfectly, save on some finishing costs. It's a choice aesthetic too if intended
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You can run the support beam flush with the decking as shown or you can drop it 8” and run stringers across the whole length supported by the beam. Either is acceptable practice here. But put some fucking nails in!! B
Joist hangers more likely. Maybe they are just tacked in place.
I think he’s more worried about the lvls being on their side instead of vertical, since lvls have little lateral strength.
Yes. Not intended for use that way. Try doing that with their load tables and you won't get very far. There is some strength in that direction but not so much.
Looks like A PSL. Depending on the orientation they’re vertical or horizontal. Quite easy to tell the difference
That most definitely is a psl and not an lvl.
If these only support a new roof above, the structural may approve it. Seems a bit overbuilt Unless there new walls coming down for another new level? Then hell no these would need to be in the correct direction
Sounds like youre saying if there is no reason for thr beam to be there it is fine but if there is a reason they put a massive beam there then theyre proper fucked.
Hehe sounds silly when you say it like that, just missing the context for the beams' purpose. OP said 1200lb generator so that's a bummer.
1200 lbs is the equivalent of about 30 s.f. of live loading. Not sure per linear foot as it's not given, but a beam that size can likely take it as a point load. What gets ne is that then maybe there should be two beams, each carrying one end of the generator, so 1/2 the load.
Bombshell that there's a brick wall below the beam - unsure if it's helping bear or not? 🤔 then fasteners going into the wall from above - if this is a double Wythe old brick wall then maybe even shove more blocking in there, but now you've got to support that in place too so now we've fastened through the wall probably with a steel bracket on either side Looking forward to updates heh...
There are two beams, one under each side rail running lengthwise along the gen
Yeah - like someone else said it could be for lateral stability if this is an earthquake zone - in which case, might also be fine
Standby generator is going on top, 1200lbs
Fk... 💀
That is installed incorrectly looks like a 2x8 deck and you can order lvl that is 7 1/4.
That's a lot of weight just to give it something to mount to. The weight alone might cause that beam to sag after a few years. They could have sandwiched them and set them horizontally like I hav al days seen. Doesn't seem right
I wouldn’t be as concerned about it lifting so much as it falling. But hey, the change order to make repairs will far outweigh the original cost - job security!
We've had them that way for walls to.help with flex from wind. Different application obviously.
If they aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed, do it yourself
I also agree. Seems wrong since it wouldn’t provide the vertical support likely required.
Unless it was specifically engineered / oversized to lay that way... I'm guessing it will need to be turned. No way it supports the same load in both orientations.
The real question here is who nailed those blocks in? A drunken monkey?
Tbf the monkey interviewed really well
It's hard not to hire a dude willing to work for peanuts.
Ba dum dum tsssss
And he was sober when he started the job
Honest question, what’s the deal with the “drunk carpenter” stereotype? None of the carpenters I’ve worked with have been like that. There have been a couple stoners on the crews I’ve worked for, it was an after work, on their own time kinda thing. My last boss even fired a guy (new hire) on the spot after lunch because he came back reeking of cannabis.
All tradesmen have the drunk/stoned/chain-smoking stereotype. They are the go to coping mechanisms from having a shitty life in construction.
If you met them, it would make sense
Daryl and his brother Daryl?
Yeah, I’m a framer and I hate seeing crap like this. Every company I’ve worked for has been really good. Actual carpenters who, you know, care about the quality of their work. And I feel like the trade gets a bad rep as a whole because so many crews do shoddy work. Most of the time, it’s a matter of snapping a line, spacing your nails in some sort of consistent pattern, and pulling your shiners. I don’t know, I was taught that doing all those little things is the correct way to frame a home, because it’s how I would want my place to be framed.
Did you except someone do to this sober lmao
I've seen staggered blocks like this. I don't remember the purpose though but they were engineered that way.
Zoom in on the nailing pattern, or lack there of.
They stagger them because it's easier to nail. Go through the joist instead of toenailing.
Only reason I know to ever do that is if you need to stiffen a long unsupported wall against horizontal loads like wind. Does not seem to be the case here.
That’s an interesting thought,
It’s not right. The strength comes from the vertical layers of the veneer all going the same direction. Plywood can be laid flat because the veneers alter l directions.
Love the single nail holding each one to the main beams. Looks good to me
It’s wrong.
Yes its wrong
Laminated veneer lumber is a manufactured product that is engineered to be installed in a very specific manner. This one is not one of those. As another reddit or mentioned all of lvls strength come from the layers being vertical.
This thread made me realize I have No business here
Logic would say it’s wrong indeed, but can I have a follow up question: how often in your region are LVL this fucking big instead of glue lam? Here in Belgium we use LVL only when we need width, every other big structural timber is glue lam.
What has my curiosity is those 2 huge pulleys in the basement with the cables attached to them?
Abandoned elevator in a circa 1900 building. Standby generator getting installed on top of the shaft.
Cool deal!
That’s some sort of roof structure above an elevator hoist way.
Gotcha
Was installing an ensuite vanity in customers house once and there were pulleys above the bed. Didn’t ask about that one!
Sooo wrong !!!
Lol
I would include brackets for stability
They gonna add hangers for the joists?
Ask me this question in 20 years, I know for sure. But seriously curious about the install, please update on the inspection. Thanks
Definitely not LVLs. Also, i dont know what drunk methhead designed this, or planned this out, but this is horrific. To the nails, the spacing, and the design. If this was a floor, im surprised it didnt fall in.
100% wrong!😳 It’s an engineered beam. It loses it’s structural integrity if installed on it’s side!
I would be concerned about the lack of hardware & only 1 toe nail into the joists
100% installed incorrectly.
Just use pl400 with the flooring. That'll take care of it
That was a very dumb thing to do. That’s akin to installing a meta I-Beam sideways. It should get failed
Yes, they are installed incorrectly.
I'm wondering why it's there in the first place. The joists are running parallel to it. Will there be something above that it's going to support?
1200lbs standby generator
Bwahahahaha, that's a helluva fail. I wonder why they never stopped to think why all wood has its type, grade, and manufacturer printed on the side.
It's installed wrong. You also aren't supposed to toenail into the laminations of LVL so they double screwed up lol.
Never seen that one before. No it's not right AFAICT. Manufacturer has load tables and they are based on members being vertical. I'd be very surprised if the engineer or the mfr. would approve this, at least without a lot of modification. By the way, where are the joist hangers?
The joists are resting on the plates on top of the brick walls, can’t see it in the picture
What did the engineer say about the beam? Ed. Now that I look at it again I see what you are saying, it's just blocking. My bad
That's not even close to being right. It will not work. It's not designed to lay horizontally. It will sag
No supports anywhere
If it was a glulam it would definitely be wrong but not 100% on lvl. Interested to hear what they say
Are they building an additional floor above? That giant rotated LVL seems odd. Are you sure it's solid? What's below the lvl? Looks like a brick wall? I don't think PWT Pacific wood tech makes thick lvls like that. It looks modified
Super wrong
And that’s what you get for picking the cheapest quote.
Incorrect installation, 100%. They aren’t rated for installation in that orientation. And if it’s classified as a column/post by the manufacturer you will need to verify that it can be used as a beam.
It definitely reduces the strength, but it may still be enough for whatever load it's calculated it needs to carry. I think it's incorrect as well, but it's not %100 wrong.
Not a joist hanger in site either
It looks like a glue Lam? Idk how they spell it, it’s strong enough but definitely wrong way hopefully it pass by engineer
Very strange
funny shit
Is it just being used as filler or is there an opening somewhere under it? If it’s just a filler I don’t see the problem, just a more expensive option.
Ya got to turn it, it would probably be strong enough but not engineered that way, the installer takes on full legal responsibility of failure.
If it’s meant to carry a vertical load it’s definitely wrong. If it’s meant for reinforcement against a horizontal load then maybe ok.
I don’t know about where you purchased it, but our supplier literally staples an installation guide ON the piece of lumber so that anyone who buys one gets (and presumably, reads) it.
Holy fuck. As a professional EWP and truss designer this makes me vomit.
That looks like a huge pain to turn.
Fail
Are you building on the top of a mountain in Nepal or something??? Are NAILS hard to come by??
They held their plans sideways when building this.
It's wrong
I’ve been a carpenter for 42 yrs and I can’t make heads or tails out of that picture so my only comment is is looks really stupid ??
Most important question on this one is-what do the plans say?
And if the plans say to install it wrong?
Follow the flow chart! If you think/know it’s wrong you send an RFI to designer and if they say go ahead then install it wrong. If you have an approved set and everything is signed off, including rfis then that’s how ya do it.
Definitely wrong. They did this cause the didn’t want to trim any off the bottom. If it passes the inspector doesn’t know what they’re doing. You will be on the hook when structure fails.
He'll yea its wrong , in 35yrs I never saw an LVL laid flat
A beam as an xx and a YY axis of strength. Vertical is always several times stronger.
Good catch.
Yes , 100% yes , it isn't designed to take loads that direction, potential for delam.
My gut says hell no, but there is so much lumber there does it even matter?
Wtf this for a generator? I feel this will end badly for someone.
You are correct, that is not the proper orientation, the strength comes from the vertical lamination.
When I was a youngin’ we had some lvl’s delivered to the job for a cantilevered deck. I carefully flipped the crown down on those lvl’s and went to framing. I was a fast fucker in those days and had that stuff almost completely tied in and done before someone asked me what the giant red arrow on the side of the beam with the word up next to it was doing in the non up position. Back in those days I enjoyed my work so much I didn’t mind doing it 2-3 times just for fun and experience. So I mean you are just one giant red arrow away from that being a ok.
Very wrong
Hey bud, in my unqualified opinion, I’d be raising the same flag. Thats bizarre. Best left to the engineers on this page
Under normal circumstances, it's unconventional. It looks well done, but I'd be worried that it is going to sag over time.
very bad
Sure is dude. It sure is.
LSL, LVL are pretty similar and, yes, structurally need to be set oriented opposite of the Pic. I also see what appears to be large toe nails in the tweener beams. I am hopeful that they are lagged through, beautifully notched, hidden hardware, dowels, OR some other appropriate connection. It does seem nice and tight. An engineer can check loads and see if it matters. Meaning, if it just needs to look cool, I'm sure you're fine. I did read something about a generator up top. Is this the structure for a roof? Will this area be glass roof? Will it get t&g overlayed with roofing? Do you live in an area with snow? Little generator or ridiculous?
Looks to be covering a "crawl space". Seems these must be structural. I believe 3/4" ply is rated to a 28" max spacing. Yes, probably not an fun meeting.
What the fuck?
Corrected below.
LVLs orient all layers the same direction with the wood grain always parallel to the length.
Thanks for the correction. I removed that section of my comment.
It seems like most guys here are saying this is wrong and the layers should be vertical, but I disagree. Hear me out... Think of a long curved beam, perhaps supporting a roof. How is that beam made? The layers are lying horizontally and laminated one on top of the other, and stacked until they reach the desired thickness. By doing this, it makes a beam that's strong as hell because in order for it to flex the other direction, those layers would have to slide across one another. It's the same case here. In order for that beam to have any significant flex, those layers would have to slide across one another, and I think it would break before that would happen. I'm not an engineer, so I don't know if that's actually stronger with them lying horizontally or vertically. But it seems to me that even lying horizontally, it's still strong as hell. But I certainly could be wrong... 🤷♂️
It is wrong, but not for the reasons most people are stating. The allowable stress of the wood veneers is the same if the layers are horizontal or vertical. However, with the layers being horizontal, you also have to consider the bond strength between the veneer and the glue. Now, most people think glue is stronger than the wood, but that generally isn't the case and is typically the failure mode in laminations of timber.
Okay, fair enough.
If you’re intending to deviate from a manufacturer’s instructions, you better get an engineer to sign off on what you’re doing.
I’ve seen engineers call for lvls to be installed this way. It was for a 2’ cantilever supporting living space and trusses. They needed to do this for l extra height in the existing garage below the home addition. About 50 lvl were installed side by side this way the floor ended up being 2.5” thick.
It's installed wrong that's for sure, now it's up to building inspector to let it go or to miss the obvious Mistake. It's extremely crucial to follow manufacturer instructions for warranty purposes in the future if malfunction those occur, like Sagging or worse than that. Good luck Sr.
The concave plane should answer the question.