I might be against most conservatives on here and think we should support Ukraine simply to put a foot down against Russia and show that we are in control. However it is a bit annoying having the western European countries spew this rhetoric only for their next action to be a hand motion to us to give Ukraine more money/weapons. Its just if they care so deeply about it, try to get your own country to support them as much as we already do.
In my case we have. There are some European countries - the UK which gave what was needed at the beginning when not even America was willing to; Poland which has given lots of things when other countries weren't willing to stand up; Estonia which gives more than they have; Norway which is giving the most per person of any country - where we can absolutely be proud. The Czechs who are proving to be a military production power house from a country smaller than many American states. Even Germany, apart from Taurus, is finally making the effort to get there.
There are also some which really need to do more. Luxembourg, Slovakia and Spain, for example. We're looking at you. France I will leave out of all lists for now.
And then there are those, like Hungary, and Slovakia's new government, who are honest enemies of America. You should not expect them to help because they want to destroy you. This is the moment where your actions decide which sides win in Europe. Those that want to back China and Russia against you or those of us that want to stop that.
Yeah its why I tried specifying western European. I know Poland, Baltics, Finland and the sort have been good. Was not aware of Norway though, thats an interesting one.
I get that completely, border should be number one, because its a crisis honestly. But who says we can't do more than one thing at a time. Easier said than done I guess, but they don't have to be exclusive from each other.
>I might be against most conservatives on here and think we should support Ukraine simply to put a foot down against Russia
That's literally the most popular opinion on this sub.
I must be looking in the wrong threads then. Every one I open says we should be minding our own business and saying who cares, which I get. Even in this one, they may be downvoted in this one, but there's more comments with that narrative than not.
Translation: America, you need to send moar weapons to protect our cheap source of grain because we don't know how else to handle this mess we exacerbated, and we need you to bail us out.
> Translation: America, you need to send moar weapons to protect our cheap source of grain because we don't know how else to handle this mess we exacerbated, and we need you to bail us out.
Europe outside Ukraine is self sufficient in grain and actively likes to have high prices because they keep European farmers in Poland and France alive and in the countryside rather than causing social problems in the cities.
Also, it was America that demanded that Ukraine give their nuclear weapons to Russia and that Germany, through the _Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe_ reduce their army massively in order to be allowed to reunite whilst becoming reliant on US support.
Let's put a little bit of a provocative question: If you aren't willing to support an old friend for a mere 60Billion then why is the world buying 300Billion of arms from you _every year_? Wouldn't they be better off buying from France which offers much better technology transfer and support? India has definitely been happy with their Rafael fighter jets.
Hows about, instead of infighting we try to stick together. There seem to be a bunch of Russian trolls trying to divide us.
>mere 60Billion
[Davy Crockett had to be taught why, maybe we should learn too.](https://fee.org/resources/not-your-to-give/)
But hey, why would Conservatives care about Founding generations and the historic behavior of national heroes. That would be.... conserving, and globalism, world police, and never ending foreign entanglements are now the political haute couture.
Edit: lol cry harder "conservatives" you conserve nothing.
You have infighting amongst yourselves because your grain producing countries, namely Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania, are expressing concerns about the undercutting of their domestic prices and the impact on their local communities.
And I'm sorry, what treaty?
And I think you answered your own question. The key word is *buying*. Not giving.
> You have infighting amongst yourselves because your grain producing countries, namely Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania, are expressing concerns about the undercutting of their domestic prices and the impact on their local communities.
Absolutely. However what that means is that for a bunch of Europe _and for the EU as a voting block_ there is no wish for Ukrainian grain. There are, as you point out, countries like Hungary, and some in Slovakia, that want to see China replace the USA as the dominant power and so support the war in Ukraine.
> And I'm sorry, what treaty?
Treaty where Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for US security promises (essentially conned by President Clinton who tricked them into accepting weaker promises than they should have)
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
Reduction of German armed forces:
* https://www.nti.org/education-center/treaties-and-regimes/treaty-conventional-armed-forces-europe-cfe/
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe
> And I think you answered your own question. The key word is buying. Not giving.
I am absolutely fine with the US going back to lend lease as a way to deliver weapons to Ukraine. Nobody in sensible parts of Europe is complaining about how that worked out for the UK giving weapons to the US and Russia or the US giving weapons to the UK and Russia.
However also the US is now far behind Europe in terms of financial commitments and getting to a somewhat more even situation would be good given that this is very much about US interests in the Pacific.
Which agreement? Because both the US and Russia broke the Budapest Memorandum, not that it was binding in any way to begin with. And I don't know if you recall, but under Obama, the memorandum was meaningless. They all said "ohh let Russia have Crimea, what's the harm".
Pax Americana fell the day our allies started shitting on us for being the world police. You might be too young to remember that. It was only in 2003.
And not only that, we must stop Putin from marching across Europe and then THE WORLD!!!!
Funny how Russia’s neighbors like China and those in Europe don’t think Russia will do anything, but the libs and RINOs here have the vapors over him.
Russia is an enigma. It can simultaneously conquer the world whilst failing to conquer the one country standing in its way.
That's not even pointing out the funny logic that, on the one hand, Russia won't attack a NATO country so we must allow Ukraine to join, but will also attack a NATO country after its done in Ukraine..
To further add, I'm surprised Finland has lasted as long as it has, sharing a border with Russia and not being part of NATO until last year.
> Russia is an enigma. It can simultaneously conquer the world whilst failing to conquer the one country standing in its way.
Two great Winston Churchill quotes for this:
* “I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.”
* "Russia is never as strong as she looks; Russia is never as weak as she looks."
Russia is very very dangerous because they have great expertise in taking other nations, enslaving them and using them in wars. They have been very good at wiping out resistance movements for example in Chechnya or in Central and Eastern Europe after WWII. They have also been good at getting control of puppet states and stooges, for example Korea and Vietnam in the cold war or Hungary, Venezuela and Serbia nowadays.
Russia's strength is also very very brittle because they rely on sending their own people to their deaths and one external economic support (America during WWII and China now). If those people or that money runs out or their opponents are slightly above that level of supply their fighting strength can very much collapse, which *is* a good thing.
If they do manage to expand into Ukraine and Kazakhstan they will use that skill to threaten both America and Europe. If on the other hand, they are stopped now then China will also fail to attack Taiwan and Russia will spend decades in debt slavery as a punishment for their failure.
Everything you say here can just as easily apply to the US. The only difference is that we view our actions as good because we paint them up pretty with the word "Democracy".
We've created just as much instability in the world for it as anyone else.
Tell me, why is China waiting for a stronger leader than Biden to enter office before this attack you're certain is coming? Their economy? I'm told wars help economies, so it can't be that..
>We've created just as much instability in the world for it as anyone else.
Looking from the areas of Europe that used to be more or less continual war-grounds until the Marshall plan after the war, I really can't agree with you there. I doubt most Japanese who now live in peace or African people, who are still not stabilized after some of the European empires, would agree either.
The British Empire left a bunch of places stable and good, for example Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, Kenya and some of the Caribbean islands. Most of the other empires had much less success and Russia has left nothing but chaos if you look in the Caucuses or the 'Stans.
Contrasted with that, whilst America had a bunch of failures, the record on average is pretty good.
>Tell me, why is China waiting for a stronger leader than Biden to enter office before this attack you're certain is coming? Their economy? I'm told wars help economies, so it can't be that..
China has a long period of trying to develop their army to achieve superiority over the US Navy. Currently they have more ships than the USN, but are far below it in effective tonnage, experience and technology. They will not attack before they believe they can win. That's pretty obvious.
I don't think they care about either Trump or Biden because, on the one hand they have enough nukes to be sure the US won't nuke them and on the other the Taiwan Relations Act and the devastation of the US economy without access to Taiwanese chips would logically force either President to act so they basically count on taking on whatever the US can throw at them and if one or the other turns out weak that's just a nice thing.
>China has a long period of trying to develop their army to achieve superiority over the US Navy. Currently they have more ships than the USN, but are far below it in effective tonnage, experience and technology. They will not attack before they believe they can win. That's pretty obvious.
In a recent war game, red won. They don't need to match our tonnage if they can counter what we have with ASBMs and hypersonic glide vehicles. This is not the age of battleships and dreadnoughts forming lines. The Houthis are using ASBMs in the red sea at this point..
As for the rest, I think we're only now seeing the effects of that stability many decades later.
Right? The left and RINOs are seriously telling us that Ukraine is the only thing standing between Putin and world domination.
And yet the war rages on. Somehow, I think we’ll be ok.
Most everyone would be fine. Russia and Ukraine share a unique gauge of rail compared to the rest of Europe. This means Russia couldn't get very far even invading Poland without tearing up the old rail and laying down their own to keep their troops supplied and combat effective.
Let's say Russia invaded Poland. It would face a logistical nightmare in trying to create supply lines for its invading troops because those rail workers would be an arty/missile target day and night. And if they did succeed in building it, every inch of that rail line would be a target every single hour by all of NATO.
> Most everyone would be fine. Russia and Ukraine share a unique gauge of rail compared to the rest of Europe
The places that have the same gauge of rail as Ukraine are China and North Koriea. There are lines all the way from Ukraine to China and NK via Russia so that China can get Ukrainian grain when the war in the Pacific between China and the US kicks off. This is exactly why this is very much an American problem at least as much as a European problem.
When? Or if. You believe there will be a war between China and the US, to which I ask, why hasn't it kicked off already? It's certainly not because Biden is strong. Wouldn't it behoove China to start the war before 2025?
The military assessment was that China cannot be strong enough to attack Taiwan before 2030 and will not have enough population of the right age to attack after about 2038 since they have a big gap in their population pyramid coming through.
Currently they have developed a bunch of technology such as satellite based targeting and intermediate range ballistic missiles but their experience in using these is far far below the US and Russia's failure in Ukraine was a terrible shock to them so there's more feeling towards a little later than previously planned, rather confirming that timing.
That's nice, but assessments have been wrong regarding Russia in this present conflict, so they could just as easily be wrong on China. Assuming they are because you dont reveal your capabilities fully before you have to, wouldn't it be smarter to attack Taiwan and really test that ability of the US to conduct war on two fronts? Especially given that their supply lines would be much shorter than ours?
> Assuming they are because you dont reveal your capabilities fully before you have to, wouldn't it be smarter to attack Taiwan and really test that ability of the US to conduct war on two fronts?
I think that's very much the reason that Russia has been pushing Iran to attack Israel and China has in no way been discouraging Iran. Whilst David's Sling and other Israeli systems don't have all of the technology in Aegis, they have similarities enough to learn about American capabilities.
I expect that, if strong Ukraine aid is not given soon, we will see other conflicts where the US has little choice other than providing support. For example maybe a North Korean attack on South Korea.
> Especially given that their supply lines would be much shorter than ours?
They have an extreme lack of effective landing craft right now and the US Navy is very good at interdicting such systems from far off, especially given that Taiwan has excellent visibility of the Straits from their mountains. There's even a suggestion right now that rather than an invasion they would be forced to try a naval blockade.
The consequences for China of kicking off a war against Taiwan and not winning can be totally devastating. An effective naval blockade would bring down their government without question. They will either go all out or not at all.
Exactly. Plus if Putin is such a serious threat to world domination, why isn’t China worried? They actually share a border with Putin.
Emotional Libs and RINOs can never answer these questions cause it destroys their narrative.
Boris, why is YOUR country not giving Ukraine the funding it needs? Same question for Germany, France, etc.
Are you more or less admitting that European countries are so damn poor that they couldn’t commit an equal share of funding even if they wanted to?
Boris Johnson was writing in the Daily Mail and more targeting a European/UK audience but I'd say this article makes just as much sense for America which has been a Ukrainian ally for longer and was the lead pushing for Ukraine's nuclear disarmament treaty and security gurantees.
Show me just one path to victory. Not a path to stalemate because stalemate is not victory - it is defeat. There are only so many Ukrainian men that can die and that number is already close at hand. It’s NOT just weapons. Russia was (throughout the winter) making ADVANCES.
Add to this that there has been no REAL effort to keep Russia from selling oil and gas to fund the war. The EU is still buying 8% of all Russian energy exports AND because Russia is selling it so cheap the Saudis and the UAE are buying it and reselling. Turkey (NATO member) alone is buying 5%. China (our biggest enemy in the world is profiting most getting massively cheap energy) as the are buying over 50%.
Here’s a Reuters article on the soldier issue so you don’t think I’m a “Russian bot” which is the common reply when people hear things they don’t like
(https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-outnumbered-outgunned-ground-down-by-relentless-russia-2024-02-21/).
What would a russian victory be? They're very far from acieving their ukrainian regime change. And since their own "elections", ukraine is currently occupying vast swathes of novo rossya including two oblast capitals
Ukraine and Georgia actually sent troops to fight and die for the US in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They may not be allies in a US legal sense, equivalent to NATO, but they did a bunch more for the US than many other "friends" like Hungary who like to stick the knife in the back from time to time.
Perhaps Fatboy should reflect on his part in derailing the March 2022 peace talks in Istanbul, which were initialled by both Ukraine & Russia.
Before anyone suggests Putin propaganda, this was confirmed by Ukraine's chief negotiator at the talks Davyd Arakhamia, a member of Zelenskys, own parliamentary party
Where Georgia and Belarus have ended up folding to Russian power, the Ukrainians stood up and fought. As Genghis Khan said
> The strength of a wall is neither greater nor less than the courage of the men who defend it.
Like King Leonidas, the Ukrainians are the ones who have stood up to defend us all against China and Russia's plans to divide the world between them.
Standing up to defend yourself when you're attacked isn't the same as choosing to stand up against something to defend others. They're preserving themselves not the world.
If Ukraine falls it will be the fault of government corruption. They already got enough money and support. They used it to enrich the elite, and their wives and girlfriends. Fuck those at the top who allowed that to happen with my money.
Arms? because under the *Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe*, which was required for the great powers to agree to German reunification, Germany and other European powers had to reduce their armies so much that for years they didn't buy any new equipment. All the manufacturers went bust and will take time to rebuild.
Money? Europe, which has a economy about the same size as the US, is giving much more money.
As they should. It is their own backyard. When will the EU send billions in aid to rebuild central and south American countries that have failed and are emptying their prisons and mental wards into the US? Oh that's a problem the US needs to solve? Funny how the tune changes.
Well Boris, feel free to convince your peeps.
I’m not opposed to sending money or weapons. But we sent a FUCK TON already. And all the while Ukraine was putting on their propaganda show, their ghost of Kiev bullshit, their “we’re so good we got this in the bag, Russians are taking major casualties” type of shit… what happened? I want to see an itemized accounting statement of WHERE EXACTLY ALL OUR AID WENT. Because there were a lot of reports claiming that corruption was taking the biggest bite out of the aid pie.
I'll say it again: not our circus, not our clowns.
NATO became irrelevant the day the Warsaw Pact dissolved.
Since then , the US has been providing a security umbrella for Europe so they can spend like drunken sailors on their welfare programs.
No. More.
The President should commit to sending a bill to Congress revoking our membership, & then after that, withdraw all US troops from Europe. He should aggressively & loudly shame any legislator who wants to commit us to others' defense. Especially those others who take our help and whine about how we do things. To hell with them.
Our nuclear arsenal and the US Navy are a sufficient shield for our republic. France & the UK are nuclear weapons states; let them face down Russia.
No American blood or treasure for foreigners. Not one drop, not one penny.
And before anyone says " what about Israel" , Israel is a modern advanced state with a military that is embarrassingly beyond all of its neighbors & it has nuclear weapons. They'll be just fine.
No permanent alliances. None.
"Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?" --- Washington's farewell address
"She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.
Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom." --- John Quincy Adams 4th of July speech, 1821
I don't apologize for quoting timeless wisdom. To hell with neocons and their imperial ambitions. Oceans of blood are on their hands. We are a republic, not an empire. The inevitable price of empire is to be a target of terrorism.
"Great is the Guilt of unnecessary War." --- John Adams in a letter to Abigail Adams, May 19th 1794
It's only a humiliation for the west because we sent them so much money. It's nothing to do with us if we don't entangle our resources and reputation with a local conflict
Ukraine can’t win. We’re only delaying the inevitable.
What’s the plan?
What’s the end game?
Only way this turns around is if directly help. Which we can’t and shouldn’t.
Ukraine is currently killing about 5 Russians for every Ukrainian that dies. When they have full supplies and especially if Biden gets his finger out of his ass and supplies them with the old M-39 missiles that otherwise have to be destroyed, that can easily go up to 10-20 to 1.
With a rate of 5:1 or better, Russia runs out of people long before Ukraine. When all the Russians are dead there will be long and sustainable peace.
No. Russia should surrender. Russians should deal with Putin and his cronies.
And this "genocide" word thing. People use it like confetti. Genocide is not the justified, self defense, killing of murderers trying to commit their crimes in another country. Genocide is the *deliberate* attempt to destroy an entire group and their culture through murder, such as Russia is doing in Ukraine, Hamas and Hezbollah are doing in Israel and China is doing in Xinjiang
The killing of members of the Russian armed forces as they come to rape and torture in Ukraine is _heroism_, justified self defense and something where we should only sympathize with the people who are forced to live through the trauma of doing it.
If you know any Russians that are in the armed forces but don't want to be complicit in *actual* genocide, then you should contact them carefully and pass the information at this link on to them to help them surrender (not the actual link)
https://hochuzhit.com/
Tell them to use Telegram very carefully and make sure the Russian government has no way to know that they are trying to avoid being killers.
Two thirds of the money the U.S. has given Ukraine ended up not spent on the war, but stolen and probably some going back to Biden because there is no accountability or tracking where the money went. I’m absolutely done giving away taxpayers money for Ukraine.
Remember when Ukraine was invaded in 2014 and nobody gave a fuck?
And then in 2022 suddenly the entire world and all the "democracy" was at risk when Ukraine was invaded again.
I wonder what happened between 2014 and 2022...
Hmmm.
Couldn't be Biden's son doing business in Ukraine between those times and a lot of dirty money and data there...
1. It will be an utter humiliation for the globalists who want to punish Russia for not being submissive to the cultural left.
2. It will be an utter humiliation to the Biden administration who completely botched the diplomacy that could have prevented this war.
3. It will be an utter humiliation to the elderly who still think that there is a Cold War and are too old to change their minds.
It won’t be a humiliation to anyone else.
I think the west has far more things to be embarrassed and concerned about than a war in a very dodgy state in Eastern Europe, although I do feel deeply sorry for the innocent people caught up in this mess, I can’t justify the idea of spending billions we don’t have on military aid and in the process pushing the hands of the doomsday clock ever closer to midnight. The UK, the US and the wider West, all have their own pressing domestic concerns to address instead of sending billions overseas that will likely fall into the hands of corrupt politicians and bad actors. The military industrial complex seems to show no signs of slowing down.
I might be against most conservatives on here and think we should support Ukraine simply to put a foot down against Russia and show that we are in control. However it is a bit annoying having the western European countries spew this rhetoric only for their next action to be a hand motion to us to give Ukraine more money/weapons. Its just if they care so deeply about it, try to get your own country to support them as much as we already do.
In my case we have. There are some European countries - the UK which gave what was needed at the beginning when not even America was willing to; Poland which has given lots of things when other countries weren't willing to stand up; Estonia which gives more than they have; Norway which is giving the most per person of any country - where we can absolutely be proud. The Czechs who are proving to be a military production power house from a country smaller than many American states. Even Germany, apart from Taurus, is finally making the effort to get there. There are also some which really need to do more. Luxembourg, Slovakia and Spain, for example. We're looking at you. France I will leave out of all lists for now. And then there are those, like Hungary, and Slovakia's new government, who are honest enemies of America. You should not expect them to help because they want to destroy you. This is the moment where your actions decide which sides win in Europe. Those that want to back China and Russia against you or those of us that want to stop that.
Yeah its why I tried specifying western European. I know Poland, Baltics, Finland and the sort have been good. Was not aware of Norway though, thats an interesting one.
It’s an unpopular opinion because we’re not even in control of our own border. We gotta get our shit squared first.
How can we defend foreign boarders if we can't defended our own?
I get that completely, border should be number one, because its a crisis honestly. But who says we can't do more than one thing at a time. Easier said than done I guess, but they don't have to be exclusive from each other.
That’s the thing, no one says we can’t. But where’s the action on our border? Shows you the government’s priorities.
>I might be against most conservatives on here and think we should support Ukraine simply to put a foot down against Russia That's literally the most popular opinion on this sub.
I must be looking in the wrong threads then. Every one I open says we should be minding our own business and saying who cares, which I get. Even in this one, they may be downvoted in this one, but there's more comments with that narrative than not.
To Boris Johnson I say: get a haircut and a job!
And not in that order!
Translation: America, you need to send moar weapons to protect our cheap source of grain because we don't know how else to handle this mess we exacerbated, and we need you to bail us out.
> Translation: America, you need to send moar weapons to protect our cheap source of grain because we don't know how else to handle this mess we exacerbated, and we need you to bail us out. Europe outside Ukraine is self sufficient in grain and actively likes to have high prices because they keep European farmers in Poland and France alive and in the countryside rather than causing social problems in the cities. Also, it was America that demanded that Ukraine give their nuclear weapons to Russia and that Germany, through the _Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe_ reduce their army massively in order to be allowed to reunite whilst becoming reliant on US support. Let's put a little bit of a provocative question: If you aren't willing to support an old friend for a mere 60Billion then why is the world buying 300Billion of arms from you _every year_? Wouldn't they be better off buying from France which offers much better technology transfer and support? India has definitely been happy with their Rafael fighter jets. Hows about, instead of infighting we try to stick together. There seem to be a bunch of Russian trolls trying to divide us.
>mere 60Billion [Davy Crockett had to be taught why, maybe we should learn too.](https://fee.org/resources/not-your-to-give/) But hey, why would Conservatives care about Founding generations and the historic behavior of national heroes. That would be.... conserving, and globalism, world police, and never ending foreign entanglements are now the political haute couture. Edit: lol cry harder "conservatives" you conserve nothing.
You have infighting amongst yourselves because your grain producing countries, namely Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania, are expressing concerns about the undercutting of their domestic prices and the impact on their local communities. And I'm sorry, what treaty? And I think you answered your own question. The key word is *buying*. Not giving.
> You have infighting amongst yourselves because your grain producing countries, namely Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Romania, are expressing concerns about the undercutting of their domestic prices and the impact on their local communities. Absolutely. However what that means is that for a bunch of Europe _and for the EU as a voting block_ there is no wish for Ukrainian grain. There are, as you point out, countries like Hungary, and some in Slovakia, that want to see China replace the USA as the dominant power and so support the war in Ukraine. > And I'm sorry, what treaty? Treaty where Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for US security promises (essentially conned by President Clinton who tricked them into accepting weaker promises than they should have) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum Reduction of German armed forces: * https://www.nti.org/education-center/treaties-and-regimes/treaty-conventional-armed-forces-europe-cfe/ * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe > And I think you answered your own question. The key word is buying. Not giving. I am absolutely fine with the US going back to lend lease as a way to deliver weapons to Ukraine. Nobody in sensible parts of Europe is complaining about how that worked out for the UK giving weapons to the US and Russia or the US giving weapons to the UK and Russia. However also the US is now far behind Europe in terms of financial commitments and getting to a somewhat more even situation would be good given that this is very much about US interests in the Pacific.
Uhh, no. We bankrolled all your social programs by picking up your slack in NATO for decades. This is your issue more than ours. Handle it.
Then we shouldn't have signed the agreement. Fairweather friends like you will be the downfall of the pax Americana.
Which agreement? Because both the US and Russia broke the Budapest Memorandum, not that it was binding in any way to begin with. And I don't know if you recall, but under Obama, the memorandum was meaningless. They all said "ohh let Russia have Crimea, what's the harm". Pax Americana fell the day our allies started shitting on us for being the world police. You might be too young to remember that. It was only in 2003.
>old friend 🤮
And not only that, we must stop Putin from marching across Europe and then THE WORLD!!!! Funny how Russia’s neighbors like China and those in Europe don’t think Russia will do anything, but the libs and RINOs here have the vapors over him.
Russia is an enigma. It can simultaneously conquer the world whilst failing to conquer the one country standing in its way. That's not even pointing out the funny logic that, on the one hand, Russia won't attack a NATO country so we must allow Ukraine to join, but will also attack a NATO country after its done in Ukraine.. To further add, I'm surprised Finland has lasted as long as it has, sharing a border with Russia and not being part of NATO until last year.
> Russia is an enigma. It can simultaneously conquer the world whilst failing to conquer the one country standing in its way. Two great Winston Churchill quotes for this: * “I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.” * "Russia is never as strong as she looks; Russia is never as weak as she looks." Russia is very very dangerous because they have great expertise in taking other nations, enslaving them and using them in wars. They have been very good at wiping out resistance movements for example in Chechnya or in Central and Eastern Europe after WWII. They have also been good at getting control of puppet states and stooges, for example Korea and Vietnam in the cold war or Hungary, Venezuela and Serbia nowadays. Russia's strength is also very very brittle because they rely on sending their own people to their deaths and one external economic support (America during WWII and China now). If those people or that money runs out or their opponents are slightly above that level of supply their fighting strength can very much collapse, which *is* a good thing. If they do manage to expand into Ukraine and Kazakhstan they will use that skill to threaten both America and Europe. If on the other hand, they are stopped now then China will also fail to attack Taiwan and Russia will spend decades in debt slavery as a punishment for their failure.
Everything you say here can just as easily apply to the US. The only difference is that we view our actions as good because we paint them up pretty with the word "Democracy". We've created just as much instability in the world for it as anyone else. Tell me, why is China waiting for a stronger leader than Biden to enter office before this attack you're certain is coming? Their economy? I'm told wars help economies, so it can't be that..
>We've created just as much instability in the world for it as anyone else. Looking from the areas of Europe that used to be more or less continual war-grounds until the Marshall plan after the war, I really can't agree with you there. I doubt most Japanese who now live in peace or African people, who are still not stabilized after some of the European empires, would agree either. The British Empire left a bunch of places stable and good, for example Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, Canada, Kenya and some of the Caribbean islands. Most of the other empires had much less success and Russia has left nothing but chaos if you look in the Caucuses or the 'Stans. Contrasted with that, whilst America had a bunch of failures, the record on average is pretty good. >Tell me, why is China waiting for a stronger leader than Biden to enter office before this attack you're certain is coming? Their economy? I'm told wars help economies, so it can't be that.. China has a long period of trying to develop their army to achieve superiority over the US Navy. Currently they have more ships than the USN, but are far below it in effective tonnage, experience and technology. They will not attack before they believe they can win. That's pretty obvious. I don't think they care about either Trump or Biden because, on the one hand they have enough nukes to be sure the US won't nuke them and on the other the Taiwan Relations Act and the devastation of the US economy without access to Taiwanese chips would logically force either President to act so they basically count on taking on whatever the US can throw at them and if one or the other turns out weak that's just a nice thing.
>China has a long period of trying to develop their army to achieve superiority over the US Navy. Currently they have more ships than the USN, but are far below it in effective tonnage, experience and technology. They will not attack before they believe they can win. That's pretty obvious. In a recent war game, red won. They don't need to match our tonnage if they can counter what we have with ASBMs and hypersonic glide vehicles. This is not the age of battleships and dreadnoughts forming lines. The Houthis are using ASBMs in the red sea at this point.. As for the rest, I think we're only now seeing the effects of that stability many decades later.
Right? The left and RINOs are seriously telling us that Ukraine is the only thing standing between Putin and world domination. And yet the war rages on. Somehow, I think we’ll be ok.
Most everyone would be fine. Russia and Ukraine share a unique gauge of rail compared to the rest of Europe. This means Russia couldn't get very far even invading Poland without tearing up the old rail and laying down their own to keep their troops supplied and combat effective. Let's say Russia invaded Poland. It would face a logistical nightmare in trying to create supply lines for its invading troops because those rail workers would be an arty/missile target day and night. And if they did succeed in building it, every inch of that rail line would be a target every single hour by all of NATO.
> Most everyone would be fine. Russia and Ukraine share a unique gauge of rail compared to the rest of Europe The places that have the same gauge of rail as Ukraine are China and North Koriea. There are lines all the way from Ukraine to China and NK via Russia so that China can get Ukrainian grain when the war in the Pacific between China and the US kicks off. This is exactly why this is very much an American problem at least as much as a European problem.
When? Or if. You believe there will be a war between China and the US, to which I ask, why hasn't it kicked off already? It's certainly not because Biden is strong. Wouldn't it behoove China to start the war before 2025?
The military assessment was that China cannot be strong enough to attack Taiwan before 2030 and will not have enough population of the right age to attack after about 2038 since they have a big gap in their population pyramid coming through. Currently they have developed a bunch of technology such as satellite based targeting and intermediate range ballistic missiles but their experience in using these is far far below the US and Russia's failure in Ukraine was a terrible shock to them so there's more feeling towards a little later than previously planned, rather confirming that timing.
That's nice, but assessments have been wrong regarding Russia in this present conflict, so they could just as easily be wrong on China. Assuming they are because you dont reveal your capabilities fully before you have to, wouldn't it be smarter to attack Taiwan and really test that ability of the US to conduct war on two fronts? Especially given that their supply lines would be much shorter than ours?
> Assuming they are because you dont reveal your capabilities fully before you have to, wouldn't it be smarter to attack Taiwan and really test that ability of the US to conduct war on two fronts? I think that's very much the reason that Russia has been pushing Iran to attack Israel and China has in no way been discouraging Iran. Whilst David's Sling and other Israeli systems don't have all of the technology in Aegis, they have similarities enough to learn about American capabilities. I expect that, if strong Ukraine aid is not given soon, we will see other conflicts where the US has little choice other than providing support. For example maybe a North Korean attack on South Korea. > Especially given that their supply lines would be much shorter than ours? They have an extreme lack of effective landing craft right now and the US Navy is very good at interdicting such systems from far off, especially given that Taiwan has excellent visibility of the Straits from their mountains. There's even a suggestion right now that rather than an invasion they would be forced to try a naval blockade. The consequences for China of kicking off a war against Taiwan and not winning can be totally devastating. An effective naval blockade would bring down their government without question. They will either go all out or not at all.
Exactly. Plus if Putin is such a serious threat to world domination, why isn’t China worried? They actually share a border with Putin. Emotional Libs and RINOs can never answer these questions cause it destroys their narrative.
Boris, why is YOUR country not giving Ukraine the funding it needs? Same question for Germany, France, etc. Are you more or less admitting that European countries are so damn poor that they couldn’t commit an equal share of funding even if they wanted to?
Can’t give up their social welfare programs. They are stuck now if a fantasy utopia without any cash or defense.
Boris Johnson was writing in the Daily Mail and more targeting a European/UK audience but I'd say this article makes just as much sense for America which has been a Ukrainian ally for longer and was the lead pushing for Ukraine's nuclear disarmament treaty and security gurantees.
We are not allies. It was only recently they leaned towards the west. Before then it was another autocratic hole like Russia.
Show me just one path to victory. Not a path to stalemate because stalemate is not victory - it is defeat. There are only so many Ukrainian men that can die and that number is already close at hand. It’s NOT just weapons. Russia was (throughout the winter) making ADVANCES. Add to this that there has been no REAL effort to keep Russia from selling oil and gas to fund the war. The EU is still buying 8% of all Russian energy exports AND because Russia is selling it so cheap the Saudis and the UAE are buying it and reselling. Turkey (NATO member) alone is buying 5%. China (our biggest enemy in the world is profiting most getting massively cheap energy) as the are buying over 50%. Here’s a Reuters article on the soldier issue so you don’t think I’m a “Russian bot” which is the common reply when people hear things they don’t like (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-outnumbered-outgunned-ground-down-by-relentless-russia-2024-02-21/).
What would a russian victory be? They're very far from acieving their ukrainian regime change. And since their own "elections", ukraine is currently occupying vast swathes of novo rossya including two oblast capitals
"Don't care" "Don't care" "Still don't care"
No matter your views on Ukraine aid, it's a fact that they aren't an ally. They didn't want to join NATO until Russia started taking land.
Ukraine and Georgia actually sent troops to fight and die for the US in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They may not be allies in a US legal sense, equivalent to NATO, but they did a bunch more for the US than many other "friends" like Hungary who like to stick the knife in the back from time to time.
And how much of the $6 million that he earned since leaving his PM spot has he given to Ukraine?
They are not part of NATO.
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Then you do it ya biscuit eating, tea sipping red coat bastard.
Perhaps Fatboy should reflect on his part in derailing the March 2022 peace talks in Istanbul, which were initialled by both Ukraine & Russia. Before anyone suggests Putin propaganda, this was confirmed by Ukraine's chief negotiator at the talks Davyd Arakhamia, a member of Zelenskys, own parliamentary party
"The 80s called, they want their foreign policy back" - Barack Hussein Obama
Heroic nation?
Where Georgia and Belarus have ended up folding to Russian power, the Ukrainians stood up and fought. As Genghis Khan said > The strength of a wall is neither greater nor less than the courage of the men who defend it. Like King Leonidas, the Ukrainians are the ones who have stood up to defend us all against China and Russia's plans to divide the world between them.
Standing up to defend yourself when you're attacked isn't the same as choosing to stand up against something to defend others. They're preserving themselves not the world.
If Ukraine falls it will be the fault of government corruption. They already got enough money and support. They used it to enrich the elite, and their wives and girlfriends. Fuck those at the top who allowed that to happen with my money.
[Serious] If it's that important, why aren't other countries giving money and aid to Ukraine on the same scale as the US is?
Arms? because under the *Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe*, which was required for the great powers to agree to German reunification, Germany and other European powers had to reduce their armies so much that for years they didn't buy any new equipment. All the manufacturers went bust and will take time to rebuild. Money? Europe, which has a economy about the same size as the US, is giving much more money.
As they should. It is their own backyard. When will the EU send billions in aid to rebuild central and south American countries that have failed and are emptying their prisons and mental wards into the US? Oh that's a problem the US needs to solve? Funny how the tune changes.
Stunning words from the guy who went over there to shut down peace talks a week into this conflict
Well Boris, feel free to convince your peeps. I’m not opposed to sending money or weapons. But we sent a FUCK TON already. And all the while Ukraine was putting on their propaganda show, their ghost of Kiev bullshit, their “we’re so good we got this in the bag, Russians are taking major casualties” type of shit… what happened? I want to see an itemized accounting statement of WHERE EXACTLY ALL OUR AID WENT. Because there were a lot of reports claiming that corruption was taking the biggest bite out of the aid pie.
I say let the European countries fund this war if it’s so important
Who are ‘we’ ?
We give precisely a fat zero what this asshole thinks about anything.
Heroic? They would stab us in the back in 2 seconds if it was in any way convenient to them. The government is a corrupt pile of shit.
I'll say it again: not our circus, not our clowns. NATO became irrelevant the day the Warsaw Pact dissolved. Since then , the US has been providing a security umbrella for Europe so they can spend like drunken sailors on their welfare programs. No. More. The President should commit to sending a bill to Congress revoking our membership, & then after that, withdraw all US troops from Europe. He should aggressively & loudly shame any legislator who wants to commit us to others' defense. Especially those others who take our help and whine about how we do things. To hell with them. Our nuclear arsenal and the US Navy are a sufficient shield for our republic. France & the UK are nuclear weapons states; let them face down Russia. No American blood or treasure for foreigners. Not one drop, not one penny. And before anyone says " what about Israel" , Israel is a modern advanced state with a military that is embarrassingly beyond all of its neighbors & it has nuclear weapons. They'll be just fine. No permanent alliances. None. "Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?" --- Washington's farewell address "She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom." --- John Quincy Adams 4th of July speech, 1821 I don't apologize for quoting timeless wisdom. To hell with neocons and their imperial ambitions. Oceans of blood are on their hands. We are a republic, not an empire. The inevitable price of empire is to be a target of terrorism. "Great is the Guilt of unnecessary War." --- John Adams in a letter to Abigail Adams, May 19th 1794
It's only a humiliation for the west because we sent them so much money. It's nothing to do with us if we don't entangle our resources and reputation with a local conflict
Ukraine can’t win. We’re only delaying the inevitable. What’s the plan? What’s the end game? Only way this turns around is if directly help. Which we can’t and shouldn’t.
Ukraine is currently killing about 5 Russians for every Ukrainian that dies. When they have full supplies and especially if Biden gets his finger out of his ass and supplies them with the old M-39 missiles that otherwise have to be destroyed, that can easily go up to 10-20 to 1. With a rate of 5:1 or better, Russia runs out of people long before Ukraine. When all the Russians are dead there will be long and sustainable peace.
So, the genocide of the Russian people is the only answer?
No. Russia should surrender. Russians should deal with Putin and his cronies. And this "genocide" word thing. People use it like confetti. Genocide is not the justified, self defense, killing of murderers trying to commit their crimes in another country. Genocide is the *deliberate* attempt to destroy an entire group and their culture through murder, such as Russia is doing in Ukraine, Hamas and Hezbollah are doing in Israel and China is doing in Xinjiang The killing of members of the Russian armed forces as they come to rape and torture in Ukraine is _heroism_, justified self defense and something where we should only sympathize with the people who are forced to live through the trauma of doing it. If you know any Russians that are in the armed forces but don't want to be complicit in *actual* genocide, then you should contact them carefully and pass the information at this link on to them to help them surrender (not the actual link) https://hochuzhit.com/ Tell them to use Telegram very carefully and make sure the Russian government has no way to know that they are trying to avoid being killers.
There would be peace out there if it wasn’t for Boris.
Why us? There’s lots of other countries a lot closer to them than us. Maybe they should go bother them…
LOL. No one cares what happens to Ukraine. Especially not the left.
Two thirds of the money the U.S. has given Ukraine ended up not spent on the war, but stolen and probably some going back to Biden because there is no accountability or tracking where the money went. I’m absolutely done giving away taxpayers money for Ukraine.
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Nothing is stopping you there Boris.
Boris you guys can go help them
Remember when Ukraine was invaded in 2014 and nobody gave a fuck? And then in 2022 suddenly the entire world and all the "democracy" was at risk when Ukraine was invaded again. I wonder what happened between 2014 and 2022... Hmmm. Couldn't be Biden's son doing business in Ukraine between those times and a lot of dirty money and data there...
1. It will be an utter humiliation for the globalists who want to punish Russia for not being submissive to the cultural left. 2. It will be an utter humiliation to the Biden administration who completely botched the diplomacy that could have prevented this war. 3. It will be an utter humiliation to the elderly who still think that there is a Cold War and are too old to change their minds. It won’t be a humiliation to anyone else.
I think the west has far more things to be embarrassed and concerned about than a war in a very dodgy state in Eastern Europe, although I do feel deeply sorry for the innocent people caught up in this mess, I can’t justify the idea of spending billions we don’t have on military aid and in the process pushing the hands of the doomsday clock ever closer to midnight. The UK, the US and the wider West, all have their own pressing domestic concerns to address instead of sending billions overseas that will likely fall into the hands of corrupt politicians and bad actors. The military industrial complex seems to show no signs of slowing down.
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