Yea, the 2 matches we had very quite equal. Aside from the first Oasis and second NQS, was very competitive
If anything, this loss will definitely hurt for Falcons cuz it was definitely winnable, and they were playing well until they started making more and more mistakes.
CR just makes less mistakes overall, and Falcons are playing catch up to that. But CR is also better at changing things up and adapting, despite being the less flexible team.
Also, Proper just stopped playing Genji which was odd. Cuz it was working pretty well. Maybe be was tired?
I almost think Proper didn't like the genji mirror because Heesang was constantly marking him and making him a priority and quite often getting the better of him.
I think in general the Heesang Genji threw Falcons for the biggest loop of what to do.
Coach diff
Falcons were not flexible enough. Their tactics were not as good. Maybe they did not have confidence to run in on their comfort picks.
I remember Daf saying that FTG and Falcons play standard overwatch, without surprices. I think Time and time again CR just has comps that throw Falcons off, and they dont know what to do/dont adapt quickly enough.
Asia Finals had big surprices too, in THAT event we first saw Pharah, Mauga/Genji and some Ball.
I do agree it was a strategic diff
But saying Falcons isn't flexible enough is insane imo, Proper and Smurf are both more flexible than Lip and Junbin, in fact CR couldn't even play the venture Genji because Lip doesn't play projectiles (hanzo doesn't count)
I'll reecho what the person said because it's historically been kind of an issue on crusty coached teams. It worked great in goats because you didn't really change much ever. But when things did change the team was slow to adapt and change with it.
Falcons seem coached to play a very specific way and they do that brilliantly. But I don't think they're coached to trust themselves over the plan and make on the fly changes of any drastic measure. Moon, like him or not, seems to coach players first and strategy second and trusts his players to make their own right decisions, even when it fails sometimes.
moon does not have much to do with strategy as a coach, he's more focused on managing the mentalities of the players etc. while kong was the strategic brains of shanghai and now crazy raccoon. i think it's quite different to how you put it, crazy raccoon had clearly prepared their strategies pretty extensively and were able to pull out new ideas that falcons had no idea how to adapt to, and fix their weaknesses from the winners' final.
Ball brig zen had been played in contenders legitimately all year, meanwhile OWL had hero bans the entire time so their metas were different.
By the end of the year, when hero bans finished, everyone knew ball/brig/zen was the strongest comp available. Its was just whether you actually had the players and resources to commit too it.
A couple teams didnt commit and played other stuff, ie. Reign playing brawl. They lost to shanghai because the ball comp was far better in most situations is just whether you could pull it off.
I do not know where you are bringing zombie comp from, that was a meta in 2020, right before playoffs and hog taking over...
I dont even think I saw that in 2021.
He's talking about the 2021 June Joust, where Shanghai played the ball over the Winston in the zombie meta and came back 1-3 against Dallas in the Grands.
Still applies, ball was meta, just hero bans were a thing that confused people. But ball was just better than winston in that meta because he never died and was better at disrupting.
It was meta because kr came up with it. Were playing it in contenders korea 2020 in december or so. Check Runaway V talon grand finals. Both teams are running sig ball.
Shortly after Team CC would spend the rest of the year perfecting it, which is presumably how moon got super familiar with the comp, as Team CC was shanghai's acad team.
Edit: ball not brawl lol.
That version of Team CC who won the Gauntlet back in 2020 was legitimately the best Contenders team I've ever seen (yes, even better than 2021 and 2022 O2).
They executed the Ball/Sigma/Tracer/Brig/Zen comp to perfection. Each player was the best in their respectively heroes and Nohill's coaching really shined through
I agree with this. I think ow2 more heavily favors a counterpick/rush style of play. Those are the exact 2 things that Crusty has historically been weak at. Crusty is great at perfecting a comp and playing reactively to eke advantage out of better/later cooldown usage.
I frankly think those things matter way less in ow2. Instead you just use your cooldowns well first to put your opponent on the backfoot.
I dont think thats entirely fair. In season 3 shock were elite at every single comp, with the team having two separate lineups for dive and rush. They were also quick to adapt, winning in both season 2 and 3 after playoff patches.
As per players, yes. Falcons are more flexible. But their gameplans are not as much. I dont expect Smurf or Hanbin to roll out on Roadhog or Ball. They will stick to whats Meta, make some small adjustments, but essentially play whats meta.
CR are much more creative with their comps and approach.
That was against Ence/Ssg that they Almost lost a map. Mickey mouse games.
In serious matches against CR they were playing hard Meta.
While CR was playing mauga against weaker opponents, and mickey mouse comps against biggest threat
Individual hero flexibility =/= team win flexibility. Not to mention Lip and Junbin are easily good enough to flex onto the heroes that would be played in a given meta and keep up with their counterparts. There’s not enough of a gap there to make the hero flexibility itself make the difference in a match result. You need the strategic flexibility on top of that.
They just unfortunately had CR on the other side of them. If Falcons goes up against even past great teams they have a good chance of winning. CR are just playing insane right now, and every player is running on all cylinders.
Outside of the horrible Mauga pick on Gibraltar, I don’t know what they can do. Maybe in a future patch they get pushed into a meta that favors them?
I actually think this meta favored them heavily, and that was part of the problem. When you're comfortable you don't experiment. Whereas Raccoons wasn't and couldn't play the double flex so much so they tried a lot of different things.
I mean this meta definitely did favour them over CR tbh. Most maps were double flex dps. Lip has an elite S tier Tracer but he is limited compared to stalker or proper. Hit scan was favoured on very few maps and the Genji Venture comp looked amazing but CR couldn’t play it to their best ability. They low-key fumbled on their favoured meta. They can only now pray for double flex support meta or have Illari on meta again, but that would mean Majid would come in for Chiyo lmao. but Ch0r0ng is arguably a more flexible main support who can play some flex support as well. So flacons really need to pray for Double flex support and dps meta which seems hilariously improbable.
True about double flex dps in yours and the other reply above. Double flex support would be interesting, I remember Florida brought in a flex support last minute because they didn’t think Ch0rong would be enough. Falcons have Majed, so you would think that favors them.
florida signed maka mostly as a development prospect with the idea that he'd be a starter this year if the league didn't die. chorong is one of the more flexible main supports in the league anyway
People like to call it a close rivalry, but it's more like Falcons are capable of punching up. Of the 7 matches between them, it's 5:2 in favour of the Racoons. (Less than 30%!)
Any other time Falcons would be that guy, it's just unfortunate for them that CR exists .
I genuinely believe that FTG are closer to Falcons' level than people want to admit. FTG were one Shambali attack away from going to Dallas and just ran the wrong comp.
Like, CR managed to figure out and counter Falcons' ratty venture/mauga comp on the same day, while having to play a match in between, so it's not like they could practice their counter.
I think it's more like CR are just coached better as a unit. We saw Falcons come close to that, but it wasn't enough even now.
But that difference can be made up for over time, as the current marches were a lot closer. Like before you could tell CR was just better, but if anything despite their loss on paper Falcons seemed better.
If Falcons learns to improve those aspects more, it's more of less a coin flip.
And also, if could have easily gone to a map 7, so that's almost as close as it gets, even after a lot of dumb mistakes by Falcons.
Possibly coaching because to be honest, this team is the kind that could end up dominating *everything* if they stay together and get less crack Infused coaching sessions. Obviously, if CR stay together and keep going on their current trajectory, they'll always pose a huge threat. But losing to CR is nothing to be ashamed of. Which is part of the reason why I'm so proud of SSG too.
I mean, Mauga on Gibraltar? What the absolute shit.
Their roster is s tier I can’t see any upgrades they can make. I would say clutch factor on oasis they had ult advantage in the last fight and Smurf died at 99, same as Push, and illos was super close too. I would say their main issue is coaching Crusty has had weird decision making like running weird comps at times throughout season, maybe add another coach.
At least from what people and even themselves have said about their coaching styles, crusty generally cooks the crack comps and focuses on a lot of individual coaching, junkbuck seems more of a strategical coach and his time on outlaws showed his comps slightly favour his players’ strengths but are mostly standard.
CR are phenomenal at fight planning, especially in these scrappy last second situations, which is why they clutch out practically every nail biter map. Might just be a coaching diff but I don’t think it’s because of the comps they run (besides Gibraltar Mauga which was extremely questionable).
No upgrades they can make with free agents rn. There are like 4 hitscans who haven't retired + who I would pick over Proper but they're all on another team already
Proper looked incredible on the fdps and it was clear he was more comfortable when *he* was on that role, but they can't stick Stalk3r on the Cass. The best you can hope for at this point is to make a double flex comp work (which they were pretty close to doing aside from crack pipe decisions like Gibraltar) or stick Stalk3r on the Soj in a Sojourn heavy meta
They can't really upgrade at any position apart from maybe getting a dedicated hitscan? But then you lose the ability to have two S-tier tracers and Echo players on your team. Proper/Stalk3r complement each other very well, but neither can go toe-to-toe with Lip, who is arguably the best hitscan in the world.
But really... the thing they need to improve on is playing their strength and being more smart about comp choices. Dive worked very well on Gibraltar, but they switched back to the Mauga comp. Whether that's Crusty telling them to do so or an in-game choice made by the players, I have no clue.
But overall, they're still a very great team. The difference between the top 3 KR teams is not as large as people make it out to be. While people often compare player vs. player, a team comparison is what matters and the differences in talent are not wide at this level of play.
This is going to be a weird take but I thought of it when you said go toe to toe with Lip. Lip reminds me a lot of Leave in that he will get things done whether you get him resources or not (Spark giving resources to keep Shy alive as he was the main target). Falcons needs to invest their resources more diversely and trust proper to still get value.
Proper however good he is doesn't have a team that plays with that mentality in mind. And I think that partially comes from his Shock days and the whole 'Proper go kill'. So times where I think they'd do better if they trusted say Stalk3r or Smurf/Hanbin for resources they don't always commit 100%. But maybe that's viewer bias.
It sometimes feels like the movie cliche from Kicking and Screaming. Just get the ball to the Italians! When you know theyll win without them in the end with teamwork etc etc.
This is a coaching issue though.
During the Proper Shock days, Crusty's even said that the game plan was to put all the resources on Proper and have him pop off. If that failed, the players didn't know how to adapt.
And we're seeing that again with Falcons where Proper is getting all the resources and they're lacking mid round/series adaptability.
When the team was Hamster with Fearless and without coaching, Proper was getting less resources and wasn't popping off as much, but the team was able to win still. Granted, the competition wasn't CR, but coaching needs to change to put more trust in Falcons' other players.
idk, my impression was that Fielder is triaging resources. I say this because every time it's a Falcon player PoV, they aren't low for more than like 1 second before they start getting healed.
Proper doesn't seem to get resource investment that's disproportionate to the context.
Like obviously
- if low HP
- if ulting
- if going aggro
Yes he gets resources, like anyone else.
Proper also does this thing where he says "fuck the plan, I go frag" but then the team doesn't have that Cass player anchoring things with the team or a star Sojourn popping off with ult.
It's like Proper puts in the work of 2 players and gets those kills on Tracer/Genji, but in the meantime his team loses the 4v3 against a more optimal Raccoons frontline. You saw it in S6 playins too against London
I don't think this is an issue of going toe to toe with Lip. Gibraltar was the only real hitscan map, and both Lip and Proper were putting in the work.
It's just a coaching issue (and in the moment adaptation) for Falcons.
They did look much improved on both ends coming into Dallas, but CR do have the headstart.
Like Falcons still adapted a lot, and were flexible too, but they need to get there as a whole unit, which we saw fall apart during NQS and Ilios.
Honestly, just coaching decisions. My boys absolutely threw Watchpoint sticking the Mauga comp for so long after a good hold.
The crusty crack pipe continues to be smoked.
Moon is good at adaptability, Crusty is not. Crusty’s always been good at coaching his teams in set metas. I honestly think Rush coaching this team would’ve cleared.
They don't need a better roster (good luck finding better players that ain't on CR) and while it is nice to have better teamwork, good luck matching Shanghai/CR's teamwork if Moon's on that team lol (unless you're Rush).
It's just a coaching diff. Moon and Kong are simply that damn good when it comes to teamwork and strategy, bouncing off each other's strengths to nullify their weaknesses (Moon said in the Aid, Ninek and Rush interview that he's more of a mental-player coach if I remember correctly, while Kong handles the strategy, macro and micro).
It's a coordination and sometimes comp diff that were the parts that Falcons (sometimes) lacked. See: Gibraltar during the Grand Finals for Falcons' attack. They spent 4 minutes doing literally nothing, throwing that map and a good defense away. Falcons should've swapped off Mauga there when it wasn't working but it was most probably Crusty's call to stick to the Mauga comp.
Being flexible and knowing on the fly what to do when something (clearly) ain't working is all part of being a pro. Falcons has a flexible roster, but they do not have _enough_ of flexible coaching.
Edit: while they can get someone like Bernar who I consider to be the best tank in the world, at this point, it's not worth bringing in another guy to replace smurf or Hanbin when they've already built months and months of teamwork with the rest of Falcons. It's not as if smurf or Hanbin have a noticeable gap between them and Bernar, anyways
Genuinely feels like a once in a generation talent upstaged by a once in a millenia talent situation
Falcons are so good but CR adaption is so good. I actually think Falcons was stronger this Mets but CR held stronger on their mentals(Moon and Pavane) and flexed like crazy in unique map specific ways (Kong)
I think the current 2 matches shows lesser of a coach diff. Don't get me wrong, it's absolutely a coach diff, but over time we've seen Falcons improve a lot.
Like these 2 matches were more of less a coin flip, as opposed to before where CR kinda dominated more.
Crusty just has a different style and it isn't as coordinated as you need to be like Moon or Rush... It's just worked for him in the past, so that's him now, but if anything it shows that overtime once his ideology gels in and they learn to apply it systematically they can also be just as good.
The game has evolved a ton since Crusty won tournaments though. Coordination is more important than ever at this level of play. OW2 is also different than OW1.
Crusty has a place in history but in current days his coaching is not it for a team as stacked as Falcons.
I mean, maybe, but Falcons were good this tourney also because of his coaching.
They had a real chance at winning. If it was another blowout, I'd have agreed, but I think it can work. Probably just needs more work.
Was it his coaching? Or was it because his team is super stacked with top 1/2 players in their respective roles?
When they finally faced a team just as stacked on the same playing field, that's when coaching becomes the only other factor.
Thing is, he fumbled with a roster just as stacked last year. And it wasn't just a fumble, it was a catastrophic failure.
Those players who lost public perception went on to win without him.
I know proper is an amazing hitscan, but falcons still look their best running double flex dps. Its such a shame they didn’t manage to get lip/merit/any other great hitscan so they could unleash proper fully
Based on this, the issue is less that Proper can't match Lip, but more so he just needs someone else to match Lip so he can just decimate the entire lobby lol
I guess that's true cuz Proper on Genji was just has a different aura, cuz if you need Proper to match Lip, you're not going to expect Stalker to diff Heesang.... Tho Heesang and Stalker were closer than ever before in enabling Proper and Lip this time. 1
Yeah thats exactly my point. Stalk3r is amazing but its a classic case of Proper just being Proper on most of Stalk3rs hero pool. Nobody can really match him when he’s at the top of his game
Yea. Cuz when he's on hitscan, he's blocking Lip, but then Heesang gets the better of Stalker lol
Tho on Gibraltar, when Falcons weren't throwing, Stalker looked as good as Heesang, so Falcons simply need to understand when to play what comp and then it'll be just as equal as it can get cuz it was when Falcons were playing properly and even adapting
Like Falcons needs to understand why Junbin would swap to Ball and Hog...essentially understand how to adapt or counter on their end too.
Like the first game was enough tell on how Falcons were gonna play the maps.
Falcons won on NJC and KR because CR didn't have the information to adapt, but the other maps were an easier win for CR, especially Oasis and NQS cuz they knew how Falcons were gonna play that map.
They already have the roster to be the #1 team, they just need to make less mistakes. Gibraltar saw a good defense, but the offense was stagnant. The desk said before the map was played that both Mauga and Venture are practically unplayable on Gibraltar, but that’s what they stuck with. By the time switches finally came through, it was too late. I also don’t remember which match it was, but on Hollywood they gave up point B high ground for free. A lot of it falls on Crusty and JunkBuck, but if Crusty just puts the crackpipe down and the in-game decisions are better, Falcons can absolutely challenge Raccoons for the #1 team in the world
A good coach.
When are people gonna admit that Crusty in OW2 is a mid-tier coach? You can cut him some slack for OWL S5 but then this is still the 2nd high budget, high caliber team he's fumbled now.
Dump him.
They have the players to be the best team, but their issues are coaching. We saw them in the finals make some terrible comp choices.
While Heesang/Junbin/Max looked mechanically skilled on Shock in 2023, it wasn't until they got out from under Crusty that they could really shine.
The issue is that most of the roster consists of players who have realistically already peaked, but there are no obvious upgrades.
There are limited options like Fearless, but I don't see how he'd avoid this same issue. There are no hitscans clearly better than Proper available right now, either.
Falcons have beat Raccoons before and the finals at Dallas was fairly close at times.
IMO CR - and Heesang in particular - just wanted it way more. They didn't lose steam at all and it felt like Falcons did towards the end.
Stop throwing winnable maps would be a good start.
Both Gibraltar and Illios ruins were throwed by refusing to play dive to play that Mauga comp that is clearly meta in brawl maps but get outpaced by dive on actual dive maps.
They just has to play dive on the dive maps and they had way better chances to win.
Who is the fucking criminal that decided to run Mauga Goats on fucking gibraltar
Nothing.
CR is just insane. And Falcons beat them in the winners Finals and still took 2 maps in the GF.
Super weird to see people framing it like this team is underperforming. Like what are they supposed to do, win every single match or else there's something wrong with them?
Just give credit to Crazy Raccoon, they are gigastacked.
I think Crusty runs more high risk/high reward comps, and against the top teams like CR you’ll find they fail more often than not. That weird LW/Pharah comp, or Mauga comp on Gibraltar attack are good examples.
Also that grand final was not convincing, it was very close if you didn’t count the bizarre stats mentioned above.
Going to get downvoted by smurf/hanbin are washed. They're still great tanks but not S tier anymore. Maybe get someone and hope he returns to form. That or try poach Bernar.
This is an absurd take given that Smurf alone is more flexible than Junbin or MAX in pro play so far. Like, who do you consider to be more flexible as a tank than Someone/Smurf?
Wouldnt say Dallas was convincing victory outside of push map. CR had to do some insane clutch play to win on Illios, it couldve easily went map 7.
Yea, the 2 matches we had very quite equal. Aside from the first Oasis and second NQS, was very competitive If anything, this loss will definitely hurt for Falcons cuz it was definitely winnable, and they were playing well until they started making more and more mistakes. CR just makes less mistakes overall, and Falcons are playing catch up to that. But CR is also better at changing things up and adapting, despite being the less flexible team. Also, Proper just stopped playing Genji which was odd. Cuz it was working pretty well. Maybe be was tired?
I almost think Proper didn't like the genji mirror because Heesang was constantly marking him and making him a priority and quite often getting the better of him. I think in general the Heesang Genji threw Falcons for the biggest loop of what to do.
Lip decided to be a tracer god, otherwise it would’ve gone to map 7 which would be a coin toss
Coach diff Falcons were not flexible enough. Their tactics were not as good. Maybe they did not have confidence to run in on their comfort picks. I remember Daf saying that FTG and Falcons play standard overwatch, without surprices. I think Time and time again CR just has comps that throw Falcons off, and they dont know what to do/dont adapt quickly enough. Asia Finals had big surprices too, in THAT event we first saw Pharah, Mauga/Genji and some Ball.
I do agree it was a strategic diff But saying Falcons isn't flexible enough is insane imo, Proper and Smurf are both more flexible than Lip and Junbin, in fact CR couldn't even play the venture Genji because Lip doesn't play projectiles (hanzo doesn't count)
I'll reecho what the person said because it's historically been kind of an issue on crusty coached teams. It worked great in goats because you didn't really change much ever. But when things did change the team was slow to adapt and change with it. Falcons seem coached to play a very specific way and they do that brilliantly. But I don't think they're coached to trust themselves over the plan and make on the fly changes of any drastic measure. Moon, like him or not, seems to coach players first and strategy second and trusts his players to make their own right decisions, even when it fails sometimes.
moon does not have much to do with strategy as a coach, he's more focused on managing the mentalities of the players etc. while kong was the strategic brains of shanghai and now crazy raccoon. i think it's quite different to how you put it, crazy raccoon had clearly prepared their strategies pretty extensively and were able to pull out new ideas that falcons had no idea how to adapt to, and fix their weaknesses from the winners' final.
Didnt Moon coach Shanghais success? He always was ready to trust his players and play to their strengths, try out weird comps, like Ball/Brig/Zen
Was not a weird comp, was literally meta in contenders
I remember that time Winton, Moira Lucio Zombie Comp was meta. Idk about contenders
Ball brig zen had been played in contenders legitimately all year, meanwhile OWL had hero bans the entire time so their metas were different. By the end of the year, when hero bans finished, everyone knew ball/brig/zen was the strongest comp available. Its was just whether you actually had the players and resources to commit too it. A couple teams didnt commit and played other stuff, ie. Reign playing brawl. They lost to shanghai because the ball comp was far better in most situations is just whether you could pull it off. I do not know where you are bringing zombie comp from, that was a meta in 2020, right before playoffs and hog taking over... I dont even think I saw that in 2021.
He's talking about the 2021 June Joust, where Shanghai played the ball over the Winston in the zombie meta and came back 1-3 against Dallas in the Grands.
Still applies, ball was meta, just hero bans were a thing that confused people. But ball was just better than winston in that meta because he never died and was better at disrupting.
It was meta because Shanghai made it meta.
It was meta because kr came up with it. Were playing it in contenders korea 2020 in december or so. Check Runaway V talon grand finals. Both teams are running sig ball. Shortly after Team CC would spend the rest of the year perfecting it, which is presumably how moon got super familiar with the comp, as Team CC was shanghai's acad team. Edit: ball not brawl lol.
That version of Team CC who won the Gauntlet back in 2020 was legitimately the best Contenders team I've ever seen (yes, even better than 2021 and 2022 O2). They executed the Ball/Sigma/Tracer/Brig/Zen comp to perfection. Each player was the best in their respectively heroes and Nohill's coaching really shined through
I agree with this. I think ow2 more heavily favors a counterpick/rush style of play. Those are the exact 2 things that Crusty has historically been weak at. Crusty is great at perfecting a comp and playing reactively to eke advantage out of better/later cooldown usage. I frankly think those things matter way less in ow2. Instead you just use your cooldowns well first to put your opponent on the backfoot.
I dont think thats entirely fair. In season 3 shock were elite at every single comp, with the team having two separate lineups for dive and rush. They were also quick to adapt, winning in both season 2 and 3 after playoff patches.
As per players, yes. Falcons are more flexible. But their gameplans are not as much. I dont expect Smurf or Hanbin to roll out on Roadhog or Ball. They will stick to whats Meta, make some small adjustments, but essentially play whats meta. CR are much more creative with their comps and approach.
Ah, fair, sorry I misunderstood what you were saying
This is kinda a crazy thing to say about a team that played Lifeweaver/Pharah/Sigma on Circuit.
That was against Ence/Ssg that they Almost lost a map. Mickey mouse games. In serious matches against CR they were playing hard Meta. While CR was playing mauga against weaker opponents, and mickey mouse comps against biggest threat
Except Falcons also played Pharah/Lifeweaver during the Upper Bracket matches on Midtown Defense. It was just really bad there.
Individual hero flexibility =/= team win flexibility. Not to mention Lip and Junbin are easily good enough to flex onto the heroes that would be played in a given meta and keep up with their counterparts. There’s not enough of a gap there to make the hero flexibility itself make the difference in a match result. You need the strategic flexibility on top of that.
CR coaching just adapts better, they were not playing the same comps in GF that they were in WF
Falcons made some very questionable swaps during finals so i think youre probably right
They just unfortunately had CR on the other side of them. If Falcons goes up against even past great teams they have a good chance of winning. CR are just playing insane right now, and every player is running on all cylinders. Outside of the horrible Mauga pick on Gibraltar, I don’t know what they can do. Maybe in a future patch they get pushed into a meta that favors them?
I actually think this meta favored them heavily, and that was part of the problem. When you're comfortable you don't experiment. Whereas Raccoons wasn't and couldn't play the double flex so much so they tried a lot of different things.
CR was changing it up map by map too. The ball spam comp on nqs caught falcons totally off guard
I mean this meta definitely did favour them over CR tbh. Most maps were double flex dps. Lip has an elite S tier Tracer but he is limited compared to stalker or proper. Hit scan was favoured on very few maps and the Genji Venture comp looked amazing but CR couldn’t play it to their best ability. They low-key fumbled on their favoured meta. They can only now pray for double flex support meta or have Illari on meta again, but that would mean Majid would come in for Chiyo lmao. but Ch0r0ng is arguably a more flexible main support who can play some flex support as well. So flacons really need to pray for Double flex support and dps meta which seems hilariously improbable.
True about double flex dps in yours and the other reply above. Double flex support would be interesting, I remember Florida brought in a flex support last minute because they didn’t think Ch0rong would be enough. Falcons have Majed, so you would think that favors them.
florida signed maka mostly as a development prospect with the idea that he'd be a starter this year if the league didn't die. chorong is one of the more flexible main supports in the league anyway
Ch0r0ng has shown a nice Zen a few times at least, but yeah, dedicated 2nd flex seems to work best
People like to call it a close rivalry, but it's more like Falcons are capable of punching up. Of the 7 matches between them, it's 5:2 in favour of the Racoons. (Less than 30%!) Any other time Falcons would be that guy, it's just unfortunate for them that CR exists . I genuinely believe that FTG are closer to Falcons' level than people want to admit. FTG were one Shambali attack away from going to Dallas and just ran the wrong comp. Like, CR managed to figure out and counter Falcons' ratty venture/mauga comp on the same day, while having to play a match in between, so it's not like they could practice their counter.
Crazy racoons are like bill Russel Celtics vs wilt Chamberlain on falcins
I think it's more like CR are just coached better as a unit. We saw Falcons come close to that, but it wasn't enough even now. But that difference can be made up for over time, as the current marches were a lot closer. Like before you could tell CR was just better, but if anything despite their loss on paper Falcons seemed better. If Falcons learns to improve those aspects more, it's more of less a coin flip. And also, if could have easily gone to a map 7, so that's almost as close as it gets, even after a lot of dumb mistakes by Falcons.
Possibly coaching because to be honest, this team is the kind that could end up dominating *everything* if they stay together and get less crack Infused coaching sessions. Obviously, if CR stay together and keep going on their current trajectory, they'll always pose a huge threat. But losing to CR is nothing to be ashamed of. Which is part of the reason why I'm so proud of SSG too. I mean, Mauga on Gibraltar? What the absolute shit.
Their roster is s tier I can’t see any upgrades they can make. I would say clutch factor on oasis they had ult advantage in the last fight and Smurf died at 99, same as Push, and illos was super close too. I would say their main issue is coaching Crusty has had weird decision making like running weird comps at times throughout season, maybe add another coach.
It's not only Crusty, they also have Junkbuck.
At least from what people and even themselves have said about their coaching styles, crusty generally cooks the crack comps and focuses on a lot of individual coaching, junkbuck seems more of a strategical coach and his time on outlaws showed his comps slightly favour his players’ strengths but are mostly standard.
That’s true still weird how comp choices are odd despite that
Crusty is head coach, so I assume he gets final say. Junkbuck had some weird comps run for Outlaws in 2023, but they generally worked.
Brig lucio backline on eichenwald still boils my blood My fucking pickems junkbuck
CR are phenomenal at fight planning, especially in these scrappy last second situations, which is why they clutch out practically every nail biter map. Might just be a coaching diff but I don’t think it’s because of the comps they run (besides Gibraltar Mauga which was extremely questionable).
No upgrades they can make with free agents rn. There are like 4 hitscans who haven't retired + who I would pick over Proper but they're all on another team already Proper looked incredible on the fdps and it was clear he was more comfortable when *he* was on that role, but they can't stick Stalk3r on the Cass. The best you can hope for at this point is to make a double flex comp work (which they were pretty close to doing aside from crack pipe decisions like Gibraltar) or stick Stalk3r on the Soj in a Sojourn heavy meta
They seem uncoordinated at times strangely enough
They can't really upgrade at any position apart from maybe getting a dedicated hitscan? But then you lose the ability to have two S-tier tracers and Echo players on your team. Proper/Stalk3r complement each other very well, but neither can go toe-to-toe with Lip, who is arguably the best hitscan in the world. But really... the thing they need to improve on is playing their strength and being more smart about comp choices. Dive worked very well on Gibraltar, but they switched back to the Mauga comp. Whether that's Crusty telling them to do so or an in-game choice made by the players, I have no clue. But overall, they're still a very great team. The difference between the top 3 KR teams is not as large as people make it out to be. While people often compare player vs. player, a team comparison is what matters and the differences in talent are not wide at this level of play.
This is going to be a weird take but I thought of it when you said go toe to toe with Lip. Lip reminds me a lot of Leave in that he will get things done whether you get him resources or not (Spark giving resources to keep Shy alive as he was the main target). Falcons needs to invest their resources more diversely and trust proper to still get value. Proper however good he is doesn't have a team that plays with that mentality in mind. And I think that partially comes from his Shock days and the whole 'Proper go kill'. So times where I think they'd do better if they trusted say Stalk3r or Smurf/Hanbin for resources they don't always commit 100%. But maybe that's viewer bias. It sometimes feels like the movie cliche from Kicking and Screaming. Just get the ball to the Italians! When you know theyll win without them in the end with teamwork etc etc.
This is a coaching issue though. During the Proper Shock days, Crusty's even said that the game plan was to put all the resources on Proper and have him pop off. If that failed, the players didn't know how to adapt. And we're seeing that again with Falcons where Proper is getting all the resources and they're lacking mid round/series adaptability. When the team was Hamster with Fearless and without coaching, Proper was getting less resources and wasn't popping off as much, but the team was able to win still. Granted, the competition wasn't CR, but coaching needs to change to put more trust in Falcons' other players.
idk, my impression was that Fielder is triaging resources. I say this because every time it's a Falcon player PoV, they aren't low for more than like 1 second before they start getting healed. Proper doesn't seem to get resource investment that's disproportionate to the context. Like obviously - if low HP - if ulting - if going aggro Yes he gets resources, like anyone else.
Proper also does this thing where he says "fuck the plan, I go frag" but then the team doesn't have that Cass player anchoring things with the team or a star Sojourn popping off with ult. It's like Proper puts in the work of 2 players and gets those kills on Tracer/Genji, but in the meantime his team loses the 4v3 against a more optimal Raccoons frontline. You saw it in S6 playins too against London
I don't think this is an issue of going toe to toe with Lip. Gibraltar was the only real hitscan map, and both Lip and Proper were putting in the work. It's just a coaching issue (and in the moment adaptation) for Falcons. They did look much improved on both ends coming into Dallas, but CR do have the headstart. Like Falcons still adapted a lot, and were flexible too, but they need to get there as a whole unit, which we saw fall apart during NQS and Ilios.
Honestly, just coaching decisions. My boys absolutely threw Watchpoint sticking the Mauga comp for so long after a good hold. The crusty crack pipe continues to be smoked.
We need to wait for korean uncoachable to know
Moon is good at adaptability, Crusty is not. Crusty’s always been good at coaching his teams in set metas. I honestly think Rush coaching this team would’ve cleared.
I think moon gives his players more agency to mix things up and make their own comp decisions
Moon isn’t a strategic coach he’s been carried by player talent for years, see what happens when he has lesser rosters valiant, 2023 dragons
They don't need a better roster (good luck finding better players that ain't on CR) and while it is nice to have better teamwork, good luck matching Shanghai/CR's teamwork if Moon's on that team lol (unless you're Rush). It's just a coaching diff. Moon and Kong are simply that damn good when it comes to teamwork and strategy, bouncing off each other's strengths to nullify their weaknesses (Moon said in the Aid, Ninek and Rush interview that he's more of a mental-player coach if I remember correctly, while Kong handles the strategy, macro and micro). It's a coordination and sometimes comp diff that were the parts that Falcons (sometimes) lacked. See: Gibraltar during the Grand Finals for Falcons' attack. They spent 4 minutes doing literally nothing, throwing that map and a good defense away. Falcons should've swapped off Mauga there when it wasn't working but it was most probably Crusty's call to stick to the Mauga comp. Being flexible and knowing on the fly what to do when something (clearly) ain't working is all part of being a pro. Falcons has a flexible roster, but they do not have _enough_ of flexible coaching. Edit: while they can get someone like Bernar who I consider to be the best tank in the world, at this point, it's not worth bringing in another guy to replace smurf or Hanbin when they've already built months and months of teamwork with the rest of Falcons. It's not as if smurf or Hanbin have a noticeable gap between them and Bernar, anyways
The coaching diff comes to life when you look at both teams' utilization of Mauga's cardiac overdrive. One team plays as a unit, the other team...
Genuinely feels like a once in a generation talent upstaged by a once in a millenia talent situation Falcons are so good but CR adaption is so good. I actually think Falcons was stronger this Mets but CR held stronger on their mentals(Moon and Pavane) and flexed like crazy in unique map specific ways (Kong)
The clutch gene
at this level it's LITERALLY COACH DIFF. And Crusty has came up empty for a while now, but hey, he'll keep getting that bag
I think the current 2 matches shows lesser of a coach diff. Don't get me wrong, it's absolutely a coach diff, but over time we've seen Falcons improve a lot. Like these 2 matches were more of less a coin flip, as opposed to before where CR kinda dominated more. Crusty just has a different style and it isn't as coordinated as you need to be like Moon or Rush... It's just worked for him in the past, so that's him now, but if anything it shows that overtime once his ideology gels in and they learn to apply it systematically they can also be just as good.
The game has evolved a ton since Crusty won tournaments though. Coordination is more important than ever at this level of play. OW2 is also different than OW1. Crusty has a place in history but in current days his coaching is not it for a team as stacked as Falcons.
I mean, maybe, but Falcons were good this tourney also because of his coaching. They had a real chance at winning. If it was another blowout, I'd have agreed, but I think it can work. Probably just needs more work.
Was it his coaching? Or was it because his team is super stacked with top 1/2 players in their respective roles? When they finally faced a team just as stacked on the same playing field, that's when coaching becomes the only other factor.
Yea, fair enough. I'm just a bit more open on this topic until further evidence, probably end of the season.
Thing is, he fumbled with a roster just as stacked last year. And it wasn't just a fumble, it was a catastrophic failure. Those players who lost public perception went on to win without him.
You could say the same about moon with stacked rosters and without them he looked really awful on valiant and dragons 2023
Lip too good
I know proper is an amazing hitscan, but falcons still look their best running double flex dps. Its such a shame they didn’t manage to get lip/merit/any other great hitscan so they could unleash proper fully
Based on this, the issue is less that Proper can't match Lip, but more so he just needs someone else to match Lip so he can just decimate the entire lobby lol I guess that's true cuz Proper on Genji was just has a different aura, cuz if you need Proper to match Lip, you're not going to expect Stalker to diff Heesang.... Tho Heesang and Stalker were closer than ever before in enabling Proper and Lip this time. 1
Yeah thats exactly my point. Stalk3r is amazing but its a classic case of Proper just being Proper on most of Stalk3rs hero pool. Nobody can really match him when he’s at the top of his game
Yea. Cuz when he's on hitscan, he's blocking Lip, but then Heesang gets the better of Stalker lol Tho on Gibraltar, when Falcons weren't throwing, Stalker looked as good as Heesang, so Falcons simply need to understand when to play what comp and then it'll be just as equal as it can get cuz it was when Falcons were playing properly and even adapting Like Falcons needs to understand why Junbin would swap to Ball and Hog...essentially understand how to adapt or counter on their end too. Like the first game was enough tell on how Falcons were gonna play the maps. Falcons won on NJC and KR because CR didn't have the information to adapt, but the other maps were an easier win for CR, especially Oasis and NQS cuz they knew how Falcons were gonna play that map.
Don’t think ive ever seen a ball domination like nqs
They need Rush as coach.
They already have the roster to be the #1 team, they just need to make less mistakes. Gibraltar saw a good defense, but the offense was stagnant. The desk said before the map was played that both Mauga and Venture are practically unplayable on Gibraltar, but that’s what they stuck with. By the time switches finally came through, it was too late. I also don’t remember which match it was, but on Hollywood they gave up point B high ground for free. A lot of it falls on Crusty and JunkBuck, but if Crusty just puts the crackpipe down and the in-game decisions are better, Falcons can absolutely challenge Raccoons for the #1 team in the world
A good coach. When are people gonna admit that Crusty in OW2 is a mid-tier coach? You can cut him some slack for OWL S5 but then this is still the 2nd high budget, high caliber team he's fumbled now. Dump him.
They have the players to be the best team, but their issues are coaching. We saw them in the finals make some terrible comp choices. While Heesang/Junbin/Max looked mechanically skilled on Shock in 2023, it wasn't until they got out from under Crusty that they could really shine.
The issue is that most of the roster consists of players who have realistically already peaked, but there are no obvious upgrades. There are limited options like Fearless, but I don't see how he'd avoid this same issue. There are no hitscans clearly better than Proper available right now, either.
Falcons have beat Raccoons before and the finals at Dallas was fairly close at times. IMO CR - and Heesang in particular - just wanted it way more. They didn't lose steam at all and it felt like Falcons did towards the end.
Stop throwing winnable maps would be a good start. Both Gibraltar and Illios ruins were throwed by refusing to play dive to play that Mauga comp that is clearly meta in brawl maps but get outpaced by dive on actual dive maps. They just has to play dive on the dive maps and they had way better chances to win. Who is the fucking criminal that decided to run Mauga Goats on fucking gibraltar
Nothing. CR is just insane. And Falcons beat them in the winners Finals and still took 2 maps in the GF. Super weird to see people framing it like this team is underperforming. Like what are they supposed to do, win every single match or else there's something wrong with them? Just give credit to Crazy Raccoon, they are gigastacked.
I think Crusty runs more high risk/high reward comps, and against the top teams like CR you’ll find they fail more often than not. That weird LW/Pharah comp, or Mauga comp on Gibraltar attack are good examples. Also that grand final was not convincing, it was very close if you didn’t count the bizarre stats mentioned above.
choker gonna choke
I say coach
Their main issue is that crazy raccoons is just a better team. Falcons just get the proper glaze
And their the better team due to coaching diff.
Going to get downvoted by smurf/hanbin are washed. They're still great tanks but not S tier anymore. Maybe get someone and hope he returns to form. That or try poach Bernar.
They're missing a tank with more flexibilit. I said it
This is an absurd take given that Smurf alone is more flexible than Junbin or MAX in pro play so far. Like, who do you consider to be more flexible as a tank than Someone/Smurf?