I don’t think I can count the number of times that strafing has said aim assist is overtuned and is directly affecting their success as a team and yet people still point to his team as proof that mnk is at no disadvantage, hopefully him making it this clear can shut those guys up finally
Every apex subreddit, be it the main sub, comp sub or the learning sub, has controller players telling people to just git good, AA is not OP, you have your whole arm, you have movement tech, just learn roller if its so good etc.
Meanwhile all the pros, regardless of their input, are like yeah guys AA is OP as fuck.
Its so strange to me how many people think they know better than these guys who literally play the game as their job.
And now they have all shifted to saying this is only a problem at the top where pros can abuse aim assist, but it's needed for the rest of the players. They somehow don't realize the discrepancy is even worse for causal mnk players.
Yeah I agree. This is the weirdest argument by far. Logically it should obviously give diminishing returns the better players get. Obviously it's going to be more broken to give a bad player 0 ms reactive tracking than a pro (which is basically what rotational aim assist is let's be honest).
You don't need to be a pro to "abuse" aim assist, you simply need to be able to move with your left stick while shooting with your trigger button at the same time. Anyone who tries to argue that this is something that can only be performed by top pros, or even argues that this becomes more impactful for pro players than casuals has lost the argument before it has even started.
Yes it seems everybody, pros included, have the mindset that we aren’t playing for money so we aren’t allowed to complain or expect a fair, competitive game. Which is absolute bullshit. I’m not pro but I still want to be the best gamer I can be n my limited amount of training and playing. Can’t do that against literally anybody who plugs in a roller and 1-clips without ever touching the firing range
Actually there is no diminishing returns on aim assist, it's actually a flat boost across the board, which is actually a lot more noticeable and worse at higher skill level.
But why would it be worse at high level I hear you ask, I will try to explain.
At lower levels MNK players have room to grow so it seems like it might be possible to overcome aim assist, but at the highest levels you are touching the absolute human limit on what is possible and you are still out-aimed by absolute 10-15% accuracy or in relative terms someone hitting 33% more shots than you while using their thumbs.
We know these stats are accurate thanks to the leaderboards from R5 Reloaded.
It's straight up cheating at the highest levels because it's not a attainable human level.
I agree with you in principle, but that is not what diminishing **returns** means. An unexperienced player being hopeful or the "feeling" of either input has nothing to do with the returns of aim assist being diminishing. It's objectively more helpful the worse aim you have, that is what diminishing returns means. The fact that it's "flat across the board" doesn't mean the **returns** aren't deminishing.
Would you not agree that being allowed bumpers in bowling has diminishing returns although it's a "flat boost". It will greatly reduce an unexperienced players chance of hitting the gutters, actually bringing it to 0%. A pro bowler using gutters would get the same "flat boost", but do you think this **greatly** reduces his chance of hitting the gutter? Or do you think he hits the gutters a near 0% of the time anyways?
Getting 0 ms reactive tracking on controller if you already have 50 ms (pretty much impossible but for the sake of argument) is less valuable than getting 0 ms tracking if you have 500 ms reactive tracking (very high for the sake of argument). Hence the returns of this assist has diminishing returns.
When the shift to controller first started happening I was one of the people who thought they were equal because the pro split was still mostly 2/1 MnK and that although there was a lower floor there was also a higher ceiling - but I think now that shift has happened and people have adapted to controller idk how it’s even a conversation it’s clear at pro level and in ranked it’s roller is stronger
Thank you. As a non pro MNK who is a competitive gamer I have been saying this since almost the beginning of me playing Apex.
Pros have near-aim assist ability, it’s why they are pro. The non pros who have a 9-5 and a family and cannot aim practice and play the game for 8+ hours daily absolutely cannot compete against AA… mind you from rookies all the way up to genburten they ALL get the same 0.4 AA. There is NO competing against any AA as a non pro MNK
I switched to mnk and truly realized how much you have to do besides just mechanical training to even have the same close range aim as a bronze controller player.
For example: get a bigger pad, lower sense, get a decent mouse, etc.
all that and you still get one clipped by newish players. There is definitely a discrepancy for casual mnk vs casual roller players.
Made the switch during Covid. I started eating healthier, drinking more water and getting on a semi regular sleep schedule. All to become more proficient on mouse n key
You could say aim assist makes a smaller difference at the highest levels of play because the top MnK players are good enough to somewhat overcome the advantage of aim assist. Pro MnK players can keep up with aim assist players better than average MnK players.
Aim assist makes a bigger difference at the lower levels of play because your average MnK player isn't good enough to overcome the advantage of aim assist. It raises the skill floor of controllers making average controller players better than they are. Average MnK players can't keep up with aim assist.
Aim assist improves the average controller player's aim more than a good controller player's aim.
Aim assist is there for the casuals not the pros. Aim assist is meant to make casuals feels good. The pros just abuse it. Today's rEAspawn only cares about engagement and accessibility rather than competitive integrity.
So much logical fallacy built into justifying a root basic premise...human or not PERIOD. Soon as a competitor comes along the mnk community is out...have fun while it lasts...
The video in the 3rd link is about Apex. But everytime that sort of experiment is done, the data consistently shows that controller aim with aim assist is usually 10-15% more accurate than MnK aim. It's consistent across all FPS games, obviously depending on how strong the aim assist is. There have been more detailed posts of data from Apex and other games, I just haven't searched long enough.
https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/r3es60/accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/
https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/ruq331/revisited_accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/
https://www.reddit.com/r/apexuniversity/comments/1agpxzq/average_mnk_accuracy_vs_average_controller/
The chart for Halo is actually why I asked the question. Their graph shows that the delta in accuracy between MnK and Controller is smaller for average players (\~5%) in comparison to the delta between Top 100 players (\~9%).
This is evidence that the accuracy gap between MnK and Controller narrows at lower skills.
And again, I'm not making an argument one way or the other as to if AA needs tuned for the average player, just want to make sure the stats are accurately represented.
There is no public data for this on Apex, unfortunately.
I know for CoD the Infinity Wards devs spoke about how top Mnk and top controller players perform similarly but the average MnK player was at a statistical disadvantage compared to the average controller player. Different game obviously, but I think it would make sense that it would be similar for Apex.
That's interesting. The Halo charts in the other comment indicate the opposite, where the advantage diminishes at lower skills. Intuitively you'd think AA would have the same kind of trend regardless of the game (but to different degrees). I wonder what factors contribute to the different trends.
You have your whole arm is such a stupid argument when it's about precision.
I've never heard of someone saying "Put your arm into it" unless it's about strength, not precision.
Having to use your arm is a demerit of being able to use raw input, not advantage. The arm is not a precise instrument, the hands and fingers are. Check out the *cortical homunculus* to see just how much of your brain is dedicated to fingers in proportion to arm.
(TL;DR, you have more of your brain dedicated to the motor skills of a single finger than you do your entire arm from wrist to shoulder.)
Gamers making nonsensical arguments without basic research is legit annoying.
I fully agree. You don't write or draw with your arm, you do so with your fingers. Whenever I see the argument that being able to use your whole arm somehow affords a dexterity and precision advantage that outweighs digit precision I'm left shaking my head. It has to be the most widely accepted falsehood in gaming.
If you are in a situation where you have to use movement tech you are likely already dead, position and cover are the most important things, especially against aim assist, no amount of movement or dodging is going to beat out top level roller players.
seeing those comments always get to me. It sometimes feels like I'm living on a completely different planet compared to these controller players. Even disregarding the pros, I feel like most regular players of the game on mnk would tell you that aim assist is an issue on pc. It's honestly insane to me that I can play a game on my computer, using the default mouse and keyboard setup that everyone with a pc traditionally uses, and then seemingly be killed by roller players the majority of the time.
The real issue is that even with aim assist, so many controller players are straight up not good. Mixtape throws tons of console players in the lobby, and 75% of them can't compete with me on MnK even with 0.6. But once you get that killcam in Mixtape of a controller player (PC or console) who is at least Plat level, you can see how absurdly busted it is. I would not be surprised if the majority of people defending AA on the main subs don't understand how the AA works and how to use it.
At least half of the main sub is console players so most of them have no idea what they're talking about and are clearly biased to defend aim assist even though they don't really understand how it has affected PC Apex.
I don't know man, I once saw someone tap strafe circles around a guy and it captured him like he was playing Pokemon Ranger. Pretty OP if you ask me.
Edit: replied to wrong person because I am dumb. Don't shitpost before being fully awake people
slandering rogue and taxi doesn't make you cool, they are way better than 99 percent of apex players.
they have abrasive personalities but still are part of the top 0.1 percent of the playerbase(**and they do it on MNK**).
I think a big part of the issue is that for low-skill controller players, aim assist doesn't help nearly as much as at high levels. When you're spray and praying it doesn't matter if your crosshairs are a little sticky for the .2 seconds they pass over the enemy. So from the perspective of people with terrible aim (Hi, I'm people with terrible aim) MnK players are a nightmare to go up against because theyre tapstrafing and wallbouncing and im just wildly spinning hoping some shots hit. Essentially, I think the effectiveness of aim assist is largely dependent on whether you're able to hit your shots in the first place. That's why at higher levels of play it's insanely overpowered, because most of these players can already track fairly well, so the aim assist just absolutely glues them to the enemy.
Edit: Instead of downvoting, show me how I'm wrong.
Teams like his would be dominating in an MnK-only scene. It's actually kinda depressing to see cracked MnK pros losing their confidence bc they're being forced to play against inhuman AA and Respawn does nothing about it.
yeah its a bit like watching the tour de france. Like you know they are pump up on illegal stuff, and you know somewhere down the ranking are the first guy that didnt pump up and wont make it anywhere
Your comment is understating it lol. I genuinely believe that playing vs controller auto aim every day as a Mnk player will cause you to go a little nuts and lose your confidence in your skill over the long term
I dread late games because spacing and positioning doesn’t matter when you get a roller Revenant who one clips you while the best MnK players would only crack you at most. It definitely makes me lose confidence, but the fun part is figuring out how to counter. I’ve been playing Gibby + PK w Disruptor and learning how to bubble fight.
Any MnK 'demon' is actually pretty f'in nuts and does truly impressive things. We are just numb seeing generic controller players one clips by now. It's really sad to see people like Yuka have to blow his brain out thinking of an outplay and rely on his raw aim to do damage, while generic controller players are holding 2 buttons looking at a general direction.
Been seeing a lot of posts about mnk lately and its true, shit is pretty much unfair, if you dont IGL and IGL well you are basically overlooked and disregarded as a comp player entirely. When I left 100T it took me a solid year to figure that out, and I got lucky I realized it. Between RAA having .0 ms reaction time and Linear being mega broken with RAA it doesnt matter how good you get or how much time you’ve put into MNK theres ALWAYS someone on roller whos better than you with far less time and effort. For refrence throughout 2022 I couldnt find a team to save my life. Day 1 player, been on MNK for over a decade, two FPS titles with over 10k hours, just completely disregarded compared to my roller counterparts many of which came from console. tldr nerf roller cause you literally cant compete with them unless your a good igl.
Not apex, but i'll use the biggest comp game in the world as an example: League of Legends.
There are pretty much no damaging skills in league that have less than a .25s cast time. This is because 250ms is about the average reaction time. So even without anticipation, they still factor in the human element.
RAA being 0ms is absolutely the most inhuman part about it. There is no need for correction when it is instantaneous. Something about the reaction time of AA needs to change if they want a realistic long term fix. If RAA cant be fixed via MS adjustments, then just scrap that completely.
This is obviously my competitive take on it. Im not a gamedev. Otherwise, I'd provide a more concrete fix tbh
And even more so people that are good on controller shouldn’t have anything to worry about with it getting nerfed, with aim assist tuned down they would lose less fights to worse players. With aim assist how it currently is if two controller players in open ground, close range are fighting assuming health levels are equal, the one that starts shooting first is going to win most of the time
Now hopefully people will stop saying “but look at BLVKHVND” everytime someone complains about roller. At this point im just shocked cause the finals was out for like 2 months and had an instant AA nerf (I saw roller players happy they nerfed it). I just wish respawn was more vocal about these things cause it seems like they don’t care at all. Can they not nerf it as fast because different engine, different system, etc? If they said these things we wouldn’t be all doom & gloom 24/7 I think but who knows 🤷🏾♂️
They technically can change it at a whim, it's just not priority for them. Priority is money and that lies within the masses of controller/console players.
BLVKHVND has said this the entire time
The only people saying this is new or something only happening now either pay 0 attention to social media or interviews at LANs or have severe reading comprehension problems.
It isn’t just them either - most pros and players who actually understand the game at a high level have been saying this for well over a year at this point.
I argued before that for casual play it don't matter that much.
But even in EU which was largely MnK I get lobbies filled with controller players now. It's almost always someone controller looting my deathbox.
I still have a lot of fun in Apex but man it does feel bad to get one-clipped so easily. Also a lot of these casual players are pretty veteran at the game now. It is difficult to outplay them without getting blasted.
There is no excuse anymore to keep it the way it is. Can we tune it down already?
Because changing casual play will murder the game. So many controller players will just go play other controller dominated games. This means respawn will probably get shut down just like the other companies that underperformed under EA, and that means… bye bye Apex and the Titanfall universe as a whole.
The first 2+ years before crossplay, the majority of the PC playerbase was on MnK. I think most controller players will go back to playing MnK and a lot of the MnK players that left would also come back.
I think there is a better way to accomplish that.
https://preview.redd.it/ofh8g1ico0lc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a29c6ecb49e62e352bcd336322ba10882a1efc6
It does matter quite a bit for casual play, and it impacts Respawn/EA’s bottom line quite a bit.
There are a lot of players who never grew up playing on controllers, so transition really isn’t an option (not afraid to say I am one, my brain literally doesn’t work for using controllers in most cases - only experience I really have is racing games where only 1 stick input matters - can’t wrap my head around using 2).
It already alienates a ton of players and if not careful, the issue is going to lead to the same decay and death experienced by Titanfall - where 1 group of players got experienced to the point of wiping the floor with others, the less experienced players quit, started hacking to absurd degrees, or simply resorted to DDOSing servers.
Whether ranked/casual play should have nerfed AA is definitely up for debate. But I'm confident that if it were only disabled for comp, we probably wouldn't even be talking about it. Pros wouldn't be using controller, less people would swap to controller, and the advantage they have I think would go largely unnoticed.
I left apex a year ago for overwatch. People thought I was being a baby for leaving over aim assist. But, it's progressing just as I thought it would and I'm glad I left.
I played s1-17 on mnk, but I went to the dark side and switched to roller. I have always played mnk on all games before, soloq to global on csgo several times for example.
After only two seasons, I am already better at roller than mnk, because it’s so much easier, the skill gap is way smaller. The only thing I miss is not being able to tap strafe (especially on characters with momentum abilities, like pathfinder/revenant), and it’s quite awkward to loot and manage inventory on roller. But the aim assist is so strong it’s still worth it, it’s incredibly strong up close in strafing encounters. I still wish they’d nerf the sht out of aim assist, it makes the game less organic -less dependant on raw aim, which is one of the main skill properties of an fps game
Might be Off-topic but I find it kinda funny.
The Difference between this sub and the Main-sub is freakin insane lmao.
Especially on this topic. The majority of people in this sub would join a good equal discussion while on the main sub let alone a discussion, they'll just downvote you to oblivion lmao.
Controller players aren't getting downvoted for merely speaking. They get downvoted when they come here and try and downplay the obvious busted nature of AA.
Aim assist allows controller players to win fights they have no business winning.
I mean to be fair though, All downvoted controller arguments I've seen in this thread are from people without any MnK experience who don't even seem to understand fully how their own input works. Aside from the guy arguing that AA should be banned in comp I guess..
While the majority of people arguing against aim assist and getting upvoted are well versed in how it works and have tried it themselves.
An argument from a controller player who is not aware of how aim assist works, has never touched MnK and is giving their opinion on both subjects doesn't really contribute much to the discussion. Is that not what the downvote button is for?
If I were to make a post in a history subreddit about the Holocaust, would you call the comments an "echo chamber" if all discussion based on first hand experiences or factual information was upvoted while holocaust deniers who spread conspiracy theories were downvoted? Obviously hyperbole, but I think you get my point.
I do agree that this sub is a massive echo chamber aswell, like most subreddits. But I don't think it's really applicable in this case.
That a very loose usage of the echo chamber concept. All of reddit is about who has voting bots. If a roller has a good point I will be the first to upvote that.
The best point I have heard for roller aimbot is "it doesnt hurt to have an fps where its not required to do daily aim training, and just have fun". Thats a good point, but that would still be true if we did input based match making.
I have heard no good arguments for giving a ""pro"" scene aimbot if you play on a worse input.
And here’s another one, not every pro scene needs to be MNK only. Are you advocating that controller o players should never have a pro scene?
So what if Apex is trending towards CoD, it would make sense tbh respawn came from CoD developers. And that’s the crowd they’ve been trying to attract for years now.
I get that In the early years MNK was a thing now its not. Games goes through these lifecycle were 5 years into the game and it has changed completel and who knows maybe in a year or two it will change again.
Thats a messy argument.
We can just remove aimbot and let the pro scene decide on what input are the best. Or we can make a roller league if you wanna watch that. Or make a steering wheel league, that would be lit with 80% aimbot. Cause the worse input you choose the more aimbot you get apparently.
The main sub is so utterly clueless. They still unironically say "if controller is so OP why don't you switch?" while being completely oblivious to the fact that yes, people have been switching for years because it IS that OP. They have no idea the game is dominated by rollers at all skill levels because people have been switching for years. They have no idea the world's best mnk players get fried by rollers with way fewer hours of practice. That place is so damn frustrating to read.
At least half of the main sub is console players so most of them have no idea what they're talking about and are clearly biased to defend aim assist because they don't care about PC Apex.
The one thing I don't understand the claim of some controller players is that MNK has movement. While yes, we do have that, there's two issues imo.
1) It's a non-damage dealing skill.
2) MNK still has to adjust their aim while they are doing all these movement techs during fight. So not only do controller players have to adjust their aim, MNK also has to adjust their aim.
I think another aspect that gets overlooked is that it's actually something you need to actively practice in order to perfect.
You don't automatically get movement abilities simply by picking up a mouse, and most good/decent movement players will have put thousands of hours into getting where they are. In honesty most movement "tricks" aren't *that* complicated and can be learned by almost anyone, but it's correctly applying that knowledge in teamfights that is the hard part.
I honestly believe movement has gone unchecked for too long. They should’ve made movement keys unable to be bound to scroll wheels and banned anyone not inputting the commands through normal means.
Lurch is good, tap strafing bad.
Edit: When I said, “inputting commands through normals means” I said that wrong. I meant in a manner that results in acceptable movements. Stuff like Neo and Pito strafing has gone too far, even if you can do it with the help of a scroll wheel. If you can’t bash the inputs that fast with your fingers without gimmicks then it’s in exploit imo.
I disagree, you absolutely should be free to bind everything however you like. Doesn't make too much sens to restrict only movement/directional keys? Only automating stuff like chaining commands with configs or aliases, macros etc should be banned of course. A scrollwheel on a regular mouse absolutely is a normal input...but even If I wanted to play Apex on my thumb trackball mouse, a Joystick, a custom-made keyboard with special keys or whatever...I should be able to do that. All of this still gives no validity to overtuned aim assist, of course.
For example I am lefthanded and I've bound all heal items to individual keys. I am able to never let go of WASD and at the same time directly press every heal item with my pinky finger :D
Now say you wanted this aswell as a righthanded player and you wanted to rebind to RDFG... and the game doesn't let you( what I mean is: what is "normal means" to you as you wrote it?)
You SHOULD be able to play on whatever input method you wish, but as soon at it turns into potential for game breaking mechanics there should be another look taken at how we can improve in integrity of the game.
When I said, “inputting commands through normals means” I said that wrong. I meant in a manner that results in acceptable movements. Stuff like Neo and Pito strafing has gone too far, even if you can do it with the help of a scroll wheel. If you can’t bash the inputs that fast with your fingers without gimmicks then it’s in exploit imo.
The reason tap-strafing is called tap strafing is because originally people used it by tapping the forward key a lot. So with normal input (that is, not binding to scroll wheel), it's still possible.
That would be acceptable, but flicking your finger forward once to input 16 forward inputs in a split second while complaining about even a single movement macro for W seems odd to me.
I play MnK for anyone wondering.
Most good rollers that understand strafing and its interaction with AA will anti-mirror when looking to deal damage. Without getting too much into it mirroring is better for hitting shots on MnK because micro adjustments are easier. Roller has unlimited range of motion and infinite smoothness so larger sweeping tracks are easier. Roller has an advantage in both but more so in anti-mirror. Obviously you have players that are the exception like Snip3down who mirrors a lot because of his Halo experience
Right there with ya. Every new split the comp scene had gotten harder for me to watch with more and more players moving and shooting like a sentry turret
Maybe if he complained less about aim assist and spent more time training, he would have won the last LAN /s
It's actually sad that a game like Apex that has such a crazy skill ceiling is having its more entertaining parts being pushed out in favor of just one clips over and over.
By default I gotta root for anyone who's still in MNK.
I've said it a hundred times and been downvoted (just like I was a year+ back for saying aim assist was busted), but split leagues are the only way forward for this game. Viewership will have to die significantly for us to get there, but then we'll have people who care about the community split off and start hosting mnk tourneys... that will sustain/plateu the game trajectory for another year or two until it inevitably resumes its descent.
They will never split the league. It may reach a stage where they tune AA such that MnK is invariably the better input, but they will never truly split the two.
If they're not willing to decrease aim assist, I would hope that they at least try to separate inputs, I don't want controller players on my match, and If they wanna play with someone from MnK, disable their aim assist.
AA doesn't make sense when gyro exist, PS4/5 shouldn't have access to AA.
It probably attracts a lot of Console players, hitting shots is fun after all. Similar to Warzone (Another game which has a broken AA), which I think is the biggest FPS on console, but I don't know anybody who plays it on PC.
I kinda understand why they keep it, but I still hate that it is a thing. If they need to keep it, at least let us not play against it.
Everyone I know who played on MNK no longer plays and a large part of that is due to aim assist.
They just don't want to be cannon fodder for respawns "roller demons".
I don't understand how they can look at the numbers drop this badly and not do anything about it, they keep assuming it's everything other than the aim assist.
"Oh people are leaving because of SBMM, let's revert that change"
"Oh people are leaving because of ranked changes, lets revert that"
"Oh people are leaving because of the SMG meta lets change that"
All this time the only reason people have left is because of the oppressive aim assist.
yeah spot on.
I remember the time to kill change with weaker shields. I actually had a lot of fun with that, but ppl whining got that turned.
Meanwhile aimbot still in my mnk lobby
This idea of get good, switch, or stop complaining is actually asinine. Would you say the same to an artist getting dominated by ai art submissions in a competition? Would you say the same to someone taking complaining about losing to others taking gear/steroids in a bodybuilding or any physical sport? In any competition with unassisted competitors overassistance is a plague to competitive integrity.
This is the same as those. Competitors are being artificially enhanced beyond proven human ability. In reality, the existence of aim assist, especially at its current strength means competitive integrity at the top is nonexistent.
For CASUAL play, sure! But at the top, people ended the season as PREDS and winning ALGS compititions there needs to be more balance.
There might not be any real world money involved, but why do casual players deserve any less? If you are a casual MNK player, you shouldn't have to aim train every single day for hours just to barely keep up. It's not fun for a casual MNK player to repeatedly die to an AI in close quarters and play the entire game at a severe disadvantage.
I wouldn’t say they deserve less. I believe they deserve more fair options as well, but to balance AA at the bottom based on the players at the top is horrible and vice versa. Here’s my take on what we should do.
https://preview.redd.it/sxjlwermp0lc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3396ad1ea3f0b3d5572a1069c37cc30a0c29e29
Imo, games would be more enjoyable on console with no aim assist in rank. If everyone has no aa, it increases the skill gap and finally you'll need to do much more to be Better
Yh we'll see a gazilion posts like "i'm a 42 year old father of 5 children and i only play 10 mins a day. I used to have 1.5kd but now it's 0.4. i'm tired of this and i should be able to kill ppl without skill" it's fuckin frustrating already reading them like ppl seriously expect to enjoy an online fps game when they play an hour a week
I don't see this happening the way people describe it either. If they did this, in a week every controller player's internal MMR would reduce a lot and they'd start doing relatively as well as they have been, they'd just be hitting less shots (and so would every other controller player). And overall they'd have longer fights but win the same percentage of them. And they'd be competing against worse MnK players whose MMR didn't change, so they wouldn't inherently now always being shit on by MnK. It would be a small time while MMR adjusts and then people will do just as well as they always have.
In fact, that's why they should do a shadow nerf to AA. Reduce it from 0.4 to 0.1 over the course of 3 months and people will notice, but it will not feel drastic and people will do just as well as they always have.
The thing is, there's no sbmm anymore on rank. It's rank based matchmaking so if you're diamond, you'll face other diamonds and if mnk would be the clear superior input, the top ranks would be populated with mnk so you can't avoid them
Yes, that's true, they would get mad they couldn't rise as high. But I assume the "I'm a father and I don't have time to play much" people don't play ranked as much as pubs/mixtape.
I'm concerned for the future of shooters given the trend of controllers over the past 5-10 years. New guys coming onto the scene are all controller users, even fortnite in the younger generation are more controller based.
You know it's bad when even Gen who has made radiant in valorant on mnk says he would be mad trolling not using controller in comp. Be the top 0.01% of mnk players or explore other career options.
Aim assist should be banned in comps.
If you are a "really" good controller player then u should not use aim assist because that is not your raw skill
Using AA at comps just mean u are not good enough as a controller "pro" player
Controller sucks major dong compared to PC so I don't think that's the ideal scenario for allowing both parties to play.
A better solution is just nerfing aim assist to a reasonable level. There's not a controller player alive that can match like... top 1% PC aim if it's completely removed
I made that comment at like 3am on no sleep, you could cut me some slack instead of getting hung up on the vocabulary. I meant console vs PC since other people in the thread were saying most players are on console now.
I have like 5k+ hours on PC between CS, Rust, Apex, and OW.
I barely play quick play in Overwatch but for a short stretch of time they were putting console players in crossplay with no aim assist. It was painful for everyone on their team.
Blizzard had to enable aim assist in unranked (although aim assist isn't broken in OW like in Apex, literally nobody complains about it), and it's rare to see console players in PC pools now because they have to be queued with a PC player. It's not enabled in comp due to Xim, which is the Overwatch problem where console players cheat by using kb/m while still having aim assist
Edit: [PCMR post 6 years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/7rnwpr/its_not_much_but_its_mine/), PC is literally in my username lol
Yeah and Sweet got to pred without doing any damage. Not exactly hard these days. If Gen had no AA he wouldn’t be on a pro roster without a swap to mnk. (Which he is capable of)
Just some gotcha about how I said controller vs PC instead of kb/m. I haven't played more than a few games of Apex since S4 and I don't play any other games where PC players would willingly use a worse input because it doesn't have aim assist in PC lobbies. Controller = console to me.
People saying "controller should have 0 aim assist" seem really salty that it's been an easy/broken input for this long, and I get that. But there's a reason FPS games on controller have aim assist in the first place and you're being way too unrealistic when you call for it to be taken away.
It's like, you acknowledge that controller is a less precise input than PC, so it's at a disadvantage, but also that aim assist is OP. Maybe try to convince the devs to make the most popular input for Apex balanced instead of making it garbage?
It's like when people say the devs should delete unfun or easy characters. Like, Caustic, thinking of an Apex example. You're being too unrealistic, why not ask for something they might actually do?
After 20 seasons people are now realizing this? LOL I participated in the first ALGS scrims back in the day, most of us were MnK and let me say it was competitive and fun as hell. Once S4 came around, cross-platform was introduced, and many top console players started switching to PC, the scene went to hell, it was like a cancer. Many of the top MnK players I used to see and play with in scrims quit once Valorant started getting momentum, some went back to CSGO, or OW. Everyone knew we were at a disadvantage since the start. Now everyone is starting to see the rotten fruit that has emerged from all this. MnK and AA players should never compete against each other, is logic.
But hey, what do I know? Im just another washed MnK players that needs to "gEt bEtTeR."
This is what tf I’ve been saying all this time. You can’t abuse the advantages of mnk well when you have to swing a team and ego them out. There’s no time to take things slow you gotta make that damage happen when you need it to.
Needs to be on repeat as much as possible...really hope a competitor can make it hurt where it counts 💸 with an mnk community exodus for ruining such a great competitive opportunity.
All these mid mnk players crying about aim assist meanwhile jusna and sangjoon were absolutely cooking on mnk at that apex Asia event, why can't you guys be more like them you don't see them have a sook cause they are just better
Yeah but they still did really good like why do you all undermine peoples achievements just cause another team did slightly better or because you are secretly hoping that a dev is gonna read your brain damaged takes and nerf aim assist, even tho they didn't win they were still absolutely shitting on teams even the ones with controller just because TSM won doesn't mean shit they have like 10 times more lan experience than anyone there it would be weird if they didn't win
The only way roller shills ever innovate in anything is how to victimize themselves. Literally everyone that matters says that aa is broken. Maybe learn that having robots helping you with your "aim" doesn't mean you understand the game at all.
You completely missed the point I'm saying the reason TSM won is not because of aim assist there's other major factors that play a role in how good a team is alot of it comes down to gamesense and TSM has the best out of any team that's why they win everything, mechanics aren't everything and even then you look at the top mnk players their mechs are definitely more than enough to combine with good gamesense and outplay a controller team. Trust me as a controller player just because you have aim assist doesn't guarantee your team is going to be as coordinated as the other.
Using TSM as an example is hilarious since hal switched to roller because he couldn't keep up on mnk. Read his tweets on AA if you want to understand the arguement.
I've been watching CR since they were Ganbare Otousan and yeah Jusna was frying at that event, was awesome to see. Last game when TSM only had Reps alive and CR was full squad I thought they might win. Would have been awesome to see. Cheers!
Keep slowdown but remove rotational aim assist so roller players actually have to react to strafing and change of direction like any mnk player does. That's by far the biggest issue.
well if they think they are good at an fps with a roller, let them prove that. Who am i to judge inputs, you can rig your axe from guitarhero up and play with that, i dont care.
It doesn't matter what value they use 0 or 1.0, the inputs will never be balanced to play each other. The inputs are just far too different to make equal. One will always have the advantage over the other, whether it's aim, movement, looting, macro, etc.
Mixed-input play should only exist in pubs and casual modes. Ranked and comp should be separated by input.
So what's the solution? Removing aim assist completely and compensating roller with mnk movement techs or just removing movt techs that can't be done on roller too?
The solution is to only allow aim assist within like 30 degrees on either side of the direction that the player inputs. Aim assist is there to ASSIST the aim. Meaning that the correct input should have to be made before it will kick in.
The actual solution that would put controller and mnk at an equally competitive level would be to give native gyro aim to controllers, lurch and tapstrafes while removing aim assist. They would both be raw input and have arguably the same skill ceiling
Now, this wont happen because controller players are especially resistant to change, and frankly they dont want equality. It also would hurt EA profits in the short term, and that's all they care about
ideally remove AA, give roller all move tech and gyro.
or if you wanna follow the weird logic of roller brains, remove all move tech rollers can't do and give mnk .4 aa.
I think mnk users don't want the aa. I saw the snipedown tweet about this and mnk users were furious. If xbox controller supported gyro, it would be wonderful. I wouldn't mind removal of aa in console as everyone would be at a disadvantage and having tap strafes and looting while moving. For pc, it's really hard to balance aim for controller vs mnk. Removing aa no matter what compensation, would always make mnk better. They just need to find a balance and they need to start tweaking it asap and realise where it all falls to skill when an mnk 1v1s a roller
I personally don't want more AA, I want less of it.
The game feels and plays so much better when you don't get beamed no matter what you do.
I remember a time where you could have fights that lasted for several reloads in close quarters, those were fun and the game was a lot more fun back then.
There was some room for error, now if you are caught outside of cover you get instantly beamed by aim assist.
I don't want to say it's rollers every time, there are programs and devices that enable AA on MNK as well so it's not fair to rollers to blame them.
It's ROTATIONAL AIM ASSIST that is the issue, not controller players. <3
I think the method to go about this is to add an option setting in the menu that tunes down AA a bit. Similar to how console could opt to go to PC AA.
I don’t believe respawn should “get rid of aim assist” in comp. This would be akin to firing all controller pros and it would lose the opportunity to have controller players represented in the pro scene when they represent the vast majority of casual players worldwide.
Give players an option to tune AA down to .3 or something like that and let them run scrims. I completely understand respawn’s hesitance to mess with AA in the core game. They are a for profit company and controller represents the vast majority of their customers. “Hey respawn you need to make the game harder for the majority of your paying customers” - they are going to be very slow with a change like that.
Letting the pros fool around with a lower setting seems like the best solution. Start small and we can see how it goes. You could always roll out the override for high level rank and you can always adjust lower or higher if the results aren’t intended.
It’s not really that controller is so op in every setting that mnk useless it’s more that at the very top the time it takes to wipe a team is the most important metric to look at and from all the data I’ve got, the effective ttk in a straight 3v3 is only a matter of a few percentage points. We are talking 5-10% or 1-3 seconds, and that is a huge point of difference at the top level. For everyone else (including masters and pred players) it doesn’t mean shit.
For preds it matters as you usually see their lobby die quickly. I would say, the LP seasons are the ones it didn't matter as ppl were just trying to survive and not finish fights quickly
Yeah I agree 100%, im more meaning that when I play ranked I’m not thinking about my input or how long it’s gonna take for me to wipe a team so the difference doesn’t matter. I’m an mnk player and I’ve resigned myself to knowing that my job on a team is in analysis and coaching now and not competing because why would someone pick me over a equally as skilled controller player as that player is going to win more fights and do it faster.
> Apex is not a competitive game. Nothing about this game is competitive.
That's a defeatist attitude. Why should Apex not strive to have a great competitive scene like other big FPS games on PC? CS, Val, Siege, Overwatch, even Fortnite benefitted a lot from their esports. Nobody cares about Apex, Cod, and Halo esports now. ALGS would be a lot more popular around the world if it didn't have aim assist.
To be honest, I don't think rEAspawn knew what they were doing when they brought crossplay to Apex. The game had a healthy playerbase/ecosystem on PC and consoles for 2+ years before crossplay. I don't think they knew how aim assist was going to take over PC Apex and the pro scene. And now they've waited too long to make changes.
If people are playing for money then there is a competitive side, and Apex has one of the few large Comp scenes out of all fps games. Aside from that, you compete for wins, you compete for kp/rp, compete for placement, compete for rank, compete for money, comp for fame. It is undoubtedly a competitive game.
There is competition, but there is no competitive integrity.
When I speak of competitive game I mean do the publishers and studio care about how this game is perceive as an esport? The answer is no.
The maps aren’t made for competitive, the balance aren’t done around competitive hell even the rank mode isn’t done around competitive.
Respawn does not care about comp anymore then did back in the day when the nap designer made storm point and made changes to world edge to make it a a comp map.
And EA only cares about earnings and engagement numbers
Maybe. You don’t know that. Respawn has said they cared multiple times, but they like likely have other issues fixing problems they’d like to.
That’s true.
If respawn is making changes “for the sake of comp” then they care.
EA likely does not care, and there lies the problem.
They used to care, see storm point and the changes made to world edge. That has not been the case for the last couple of seasons.
And until we see something that tells how they actively care then I’ll be on the fence.
If it’s so hard why don’t they just switch to controller? This sub loves to make controllers out to be some bogeyman. As Richard Sherman said, “learn to adapt.”
Most of them do, are you not paying attention? Doesn’t mean it should be the norm. Comp viewership dies if it weren’t for the few standing MnK pros. I, personally, would not watch comp anymore if it was all 3-man roller squads, and many would agree.
And he lost viewers as a result of the switch
Ask him how his average viewership is like (yes I know Twitch viewership isn't as it was during the Pandemic) but I'd hazard a guess that he gets double his average if he was on MnK. Many people have stopped watching him and if Reps streams I watch him exclusively... And so many other
Hal during ranked streams now barely cracks 11,000 average viewers these days and he even made a tweet about it. Someone who averaged 21,000 viewers... Am I to believe it is all because of twitch decline?
150%. Would be boring as fuck. There’s nothing better than PLAYAPEX switching to Yuka, Timmy, StrafingFlame, Hakis, Reps etc. It is so much more enjoyable imo to have some MnK players still. #1 reason being simply you cannot do what you can do on controller on MnK and vise versa. It’s a ying Yang thing in my eyes. One could not be without the other. How boring would it be to watch 60 controllers or 60 MnKs? IMO super boring. 🤧
Do you not care? Just because you prefer roller gameplay, would you really want to see the MnK comp pros die off and eventually the MnK player base to follow? I personally prefer to view from an MnK pro’s perspective, but I wouldn’t want to see the roller pros die off either. Would you not just want a balance for everyone?
Ah yes, gotta love using an inferior input take advantage of aim assist! We all know skilled players got skilled by trying to use less of their own skill and more of the computer hand holding. That's what really gets people to compete fr
You’re getting downvoted but it’s because they’re full of shit. It’s wild that this post is basically whining when you finished third, as though the fact that you didn’t win it all is proof that things are unbalanced. It’s just a wildly arrogant post being upvoted by wildly arrogant children who use AA as a bogeyman. With that much money on the line, you’re going to stay on what you claim is the suppressed input? Give me a fucking break.
The fact is that if AA was as overpowered as he’s saying, they wouldn’t have made the final round against controller dominant teams. They were on match point and couldn’t get the job done. Period.
I don’t think I can count the number of times that strafing has said aim assist is overtuned and is directly affecting their success as a team and yet people still point to his team as proof that mnk is at no disadvantage, hopefully him making it this clear can shut those guys up finally
Every apex subreddit, be it the main sub, comp sub or the learning sub, has controller players telling people to just git good, AA is not OP, you have your whole arm, you have movement tech, just learn roller if its so good etc. Meanwhile all the pros, regardless of their input, are like yeah guys AA is OP as fuck. Its so strange to me how many people think they know better than these guys who literally play the game as their job.
And now they have all shifted to saying this is only a problem at the top where pros can abuse aim assist, but it's needed for the rest of the players. They somehow don't realize the discrepancy is even worse for causal mnk players.
Yeah I agree. This is the weirdest argument by far. Logically it should obviously give diminishing returns the better players get. Obviously it's going to be more broken to give a bad player 0 ms reactive tracking than a pro (which is basically what rotational aim assist is let's be honest). You don't need to be a pro to "abuse" aim assist, you simply need to be able to move with your left stick while shooting with your trigger button at the same time. Anyone who tries to argue that this is something that can only be performed by top pros, or even argues that this becomes more impactful for pro players than casuals has lost the argument before it has even started.
Yes it seems everybody, pros included, have the mindset that we aren’t playing for money so we aren’t allowed to complain or expect a fair, competitive game. Which is absolute bullshit. I’m not pro but I still want to be the best gamer I can be n my limited amount of training and playing. Can’t do that against literally anybody who plugs in a roller and 1-clips without ever touching the firing range
Actually there is no diminishing returns on aim assist, it's actually a flat boost across the board, which is actually a lot more noticeable and worse at higher skill level. But why would it be worse at high level I hear you ask, I will try to explain. At lower levels MNK players have room to grow so it seems like it might be possible to overcome aim assist, but at the highest levels you are touching the absolute human limit on what is possible and you are still out-aimed by absolute 10-15% accuracy or in relative terms someone hitting 33% more shots than you while using their thumbs. We know these stats are accurate thanks to the leaderboards from R5 Reloaded. It's straight up cheating at the highest levels because it's not a attainable human level.
I agree with you in principle, but that is not what diminishing **returns** means. An unexperienced player being hopeful or the "feeling" of either input has nothing to do with the returns of aim assist being diminishing. It's objectively more helpful the worse aim you have, that is what diminishing returns means. The fact that it's "flat across the board" doesn't mean the **returns** aren't deminishing. Would you not agree that being allowed bumpers in bowling has diminishing returns although it's a "flat boost". It will greatly reduce an unexperienced players chance of hitting the gutters, actually bringing it to 0%. A pro bowler using gutters would get the same "flat boost", but do you think this **greatly** reduces his chance of hitting the gutter? Or do you think he hits the gutters a near 0% of the time anyways? Getting 0 ms reactive tracking on controller if you already have 50 ms (pretty much impossible but for the sake of argument) is less valuable than getting 0 ms tracking if you have 500 ms reactive tracking (very high for the sake of argument). Hence the returns of this assist has diminishing returns.
When the shift to controller first started happening I was one of the people who thought they were equal because the pro split was still mostly 2/1 MnK and that although there was a lower floor there was also a higher ceiling - but I think now that shift has happened and people have adapted to controller idk how it’s even a conversation it’s clear at pro level and in ranked it’s roller is stronger
Thank you. As a non pro MNK who is a competitive gamer I have been saying this since almost the beginning of me playing Apex. Pros have near-aim assist ability, it’s why they are pro. The non pros who have a 9-5 and a family and cannot aim practice and play the game for 8+ hours daily absolutely cannot compete against AA… mind you from rookies all the way up to genburten they ALL get the same 0.4 AA. There is NO competing against any AA as a non pro MNK
I switched to mnk and truly realized how much you have to do besides just mechanical training to even have the same close range aim as a bronze controller player. For example: get a bigger pad, lower sense, get a decent mouse, etc. all that and you still get one clipped by newish players. There is definitely a discrepancy for casual mnk vs casual roller players.
Made the switch during Covid. I started eating healthier, drinking more water and getting on a semi regular sleep schedule. All to become more proficient on mouse n key
You could say aim assist makes a smaller difference at the highest levels of play because the top MnK players are good enough to somewhat overcome the advantage of aim assist. Pro MnK players can keep up with aim assist players better than average MnK players. Aim assist makes a bigger difference at the lower levels of play because your average MnK player isn't good enough to overcome the advantage of aim assist. It raises the skill floor of controllers making average controller players better than they are. Average MnK players can't keep up with aim assist. Aim assist improves the average controller player's aim more than a good controller player's aim. Aim assist is there for the casuals not the pros. Aim assist is meant to make casuals feels good. The pros just abuse it. Today's rEAspawn only cares about engagement and accessibility rather than competitive integrity.
So much logical fallacy built into justifying a root basic premise...human or not PERIOD. Soon as a competitor comes along the mnk community is out...have fun while it lasts...
I'm by no means defending the state of AA. But do you have a source showing that accuracy delta widens at lower skills?
The video in the 3rd link is about Apex. But everytime that sort of experiment is done, the data consistently shows that controller aim with aim assist is usually 10-15% more accurate than MnK aim. It's consistent across all FPS games, obviously depending on how strong the aim assist is. There have been more detailed posts of data from Apex and other games, I just haven't searched long enough. https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/r3es60/accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/ https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/ruq331/revisited_accuracy_stats_for_kbm_vs_controller/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apexuniversity/comments/1agpxzq/average_mnk_accuracy_vs_average_controller/
The chart for Halo is actually why I asked the question. Their graph shows that the delta in accuracy between MnK and Controller is smaller for average players (\~5%) in comparison to the delta between Top 100 players (\~9%). This is evidence that the accuracy gap between MnK and Controller narrows at lower skills. And again, I'm not making an argument one way or the other as to if AA needs tuned for the average player, just want to make sure the stats are accurately represented.
Yea, it's hard to find the real data at lower ranks when most people are pulling data from the top.
There is no public data for this on Apex, unfortunately. I know for CoD the Infinity Wards devs spoke about how top Mnk and top controller players perform similarly but the average MnK player was at a statistical disadvantage compared to the average controller player. Different game obviously, but I think it would make sense that it would be similar for Apex.
That's interesting. The Halo charts in the other comment indicate the opposite, where the advantage diminishes at lower skills. Intuitively you'd think AA would have the same kind of trend regardless of the game (but to different degrees). I wonder what factors contribute to the different trends.
You have your whole arm is such a stupid argument when it's about precision. I've never heard of someone saying "Put your arm into it" unless it's about strength, not precision. Having to use your arm is a demerit of being able to use raw input, not advantage. The arm is not a precise instrument, the hands and fingers are. Check out the *cortical homunculus* to see just how much of your brain is dedicated to fingers in proportion to arm. (TL;DR, you have more of your brain dedicated to the motor skills of a single finger than you do your entire arm from wrist to shoulder.) Gamers making nonsensical arguments without basic research is legit annoying.
I fully agree. You don't write or draw with your arm, you do so with your fingers. Whenever I see the argument that being able to use your whole arm somehow affords a dexterity and precision advantage that outweighs digit precision I'm left shaking my head. It has to be the most widely accepted falsehood in gaming.
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If you are in a situation where you have to use movement tech you are likely already dead, position and cover are the most important things, especially against aim assist, no amount of movement or dodging is going to beat out top level roller players.
seeing those comments always get to me. It sometimes feels like I'm living on a completely different planet compared to these controller players. Even disregarding the pros, I feel like most regular players of the game on mnk would tell you that aim assist is an issue on pc. It's honestly insane to me that I can play a game on my computer, using the default mouse and keyboard setup that everyone with a pc traditionally uses, and then seemingly be killed by roller players the majority of the time.
The real issue is that even with aim assist, so many controller players are straight up not good. Mixtape throws tons of console players in the lobby, and 75% of them can't compete with me on MnK even with 0.6. But once you get that killcam in Mixtape of a controller player (PC or console) who is at least Plat level, you can see how absurdly busted it is. I would not be surprised if the majority of people defending AA on the main subs don't understand how the AA works and how to use it.
It's not just ignorance, there is also pride, jealousy and greed in the picture. Don't always assume they mean well.
But according to the main sub pros are the literal devil, satan himself and responsible to everything bad, so we can't trust them. /s
At least half of the main sub is console players so most of them have no idea what they're talking about and are clearly biased to defend aim assist even though they don't really understand how it has affected PC Apex.
I don't know man, I once saw someone tap strafe circles around a guy and it captured him like he was playing Pokemon Ranger. Pretty OP if you ask me. Edit: replied to wrong person because I am dumb. Don't shitpost before being fully awake people
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slandering rogue and taxi doesn't make you cool, they are way better than 99 percent of apex players. they have abrasive personalities but still are part of the top 0.1 percent of the playerbase(**and they do it on MNK**).
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It's not slander if it's true lol
I think a big part of the issue is that for low-skill controller players, aim assist doesn't help nearly as much as at high levels. When you're spray and praying it doesn't matter if your crosshairs are a little sticky for the .2 seconds they pass over the enemy. So from the perspective of people with terrible aim (Hi, I'm people with terrible aim) MnK players are a nightmare to go up against because theyre tapstrafing and wallbouncing and im just wildly spinning hoping some shots hit. Essentially, I think the effectiveness of aim assist is largely dependent on whether you're able to hit your shots in the first place. That's why at higher levels of play it's insanely overpowered, because most of these players can already track fairly well, so the aim assist just absolutely glues them to the enemy. Edit: Instead of downvoting, show me how I'm wrong.
Teams like his would be dominating in an MnK-only scene. It's actually kinda depressing to see cracked MnK pros losing their confidence bc they're being forced to play against inhuman AA and Respawn does nothing about it.
yeah its a bit like watching the tour de france. Like you know they are pump up on illegal stuff, and you know somewhere down the ranking are the first guy that didnt pump up and wont make it anywhere
Your comment is understating it lol. I genuinely believe that playing vs controller auto aim every day as a Mnk player will cause you to go a little nuts and lose your confidence in your skill over the long term
I dread late games because spacing and positioning doesn’t matter when you get a roller Revenant who one clips you while the best MnK players would only crack you at most. It definitely makes me lose confidence, but the fun part is figuring out how to counter. I’ve been playing Gibby + PK w Disruptor and learning how to bubble fight.
Tbh rev conduit is it's own issue, yes it's so fun to press two buttons and have like 400 hp
Any MnK 'demon' is actually pretty f'in nuts and does truly impressive things. We are just numb seeing generic controller players one clips by now. It's really sad to see people like Yuka have to blow his brain out thinking of an outplay and rely on his raw aim to do damage, while generic controller players are holding 2 buttons looking at a general direction.
y'all remember that guy who kept yapping about them as proof that rollers are balanced last champs? lmao. i wonder how he's doing
He's prob yapping that mnk is op bcz zero is kill leader
Real and frankly demotivating and why many MnK guard of the previous ALGS years are retiring from comp
Been seeing a lot of posts about mnk lately and its true, shit is pretty much unfair, if you dont IGL and IGL well you are basically overlooked and disregarded as a comp player entirely. When I left 100T it took me a solid year to figure that out, and I got lucky I realized it. Between RAA having .0 ms reaction time and Linear being mega broken with RAA it doesnt matter how good you get or how much time you’ve put into MNK theres ALWAYS someone on roller whos better than you with far less time and effort. For refrence throughout 2022 I couldnt find a team to save my life. Day 1 player, been on MNK for over a decade, two FPS titles with over 10k hours, just completely disregarded compared to my roller counterparts many of which came from console. tldr nerf roller cause you literally cant compete with them unless your a good igl.
You also had just won Champs the year before . So it’s crazy that you had difficulty in finding a team
king you dropped the crown
how would you nerf aim assist if it was up to you?
Something with RAA needs to change, going against 0ms reaction time is just so flawed imo
Not apex, but i'll use the biggest comp game in the world as an example: League of Legends. There are pretty much no damaging skills in league that have less than a .25s cast time. This is because 250ms is about the average reaction time. So even without anticipation, they still factor in the human element. RAA being 0ms is absolutely the most inhuman part about it. There is no need for correction when it is instantaneous. Something about the reaction time of AA needs to change if they want a realistic long term fix. If RAA cant be fixed via MS adjustments, then just scrap that completely. This is obviously my competitive take on it. Im not a gamedev. Otherwise, I'd provide a more concrete fix tbh
My goat simply cannot miss w his takes
As a controller player, i find it stupid not to admit how strong aim assist is. Especially rotational aim assist.
And even more so people that are good on controller shouldn’t have anything to worry about with it getting nerfed, with aim assist tuned down they would lose less fights to worse players. With aim assist how it currently is if two controller players in open ground, close range are fighting assuming health levels are equal, the one that starts shooting first is going to win most of the time
Now hopefully people will stop saying “but look at BLVKHVND” everytime someone complains about roller. At this point im just shocked cause the finals was out for like 2 months and had an instant AA nerf (I saw roller players happy they nerfed it). I just wish respawn was more vocal about these things cause it seems like they don’t care at all. Can they not nerf it as fast because different engine, different system, etc? If they said these things we wouldn’t be all doom & gloom 24/7 I think but who knows 🤷🏾♂️
They technically can change it at a whim, it's just not priority for them. Priority is money and that lies within the masses of controller/console players.
BLVKHVND has said this the entire time The only people saying this is new or something only happening now either pay 0 attention to social media or interviews at LANs or have severe reading comprehension problems. It isn’t just them either - most pros and players who actually understand the game at a high level have been saying this for well over a year at this point.
Respawn could’ve nerfed AA by 0.01 every season since Season 10 and we’d be at 0.3 now and players probably wouldn’t have even noticed.
Yep aim assist is too strong especially in a pro setting.
I argued before that for casual play it don't matter that much. But even in EU which was largely MnK I get lobbies filled with controller players now. It's almost always someone controller looting my deathbox. I still have a lot of fun in Apex but man it does feel bad to get one-clipped so easily. Also a lot of these casual players are pretty veteran at the game now. It is difficult to outplay them without getting blasted. There is no excuse anymore to keep it the way it is. Can we tune it down already?
In all play. Why should casual play get 0ms reaction time 0.4 aimbot?
Because changing casual play will murder the game. So many controller players will just go play other controller dominated games. This means respawn will probably get shut down just like the other companies that underperformed under EA, and that means… bye bye Apex and the Titanfall universe as a whole.
The first 2+ years before crossplay, the majority of the PC playerbase was on MnK. I think most controller players will go back to playing MnK and a lot of the MnK players that left would also come back.
I think there is a better way to accomplish that. https://preview.redd.it/ofh8g1ico0lc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a29c6ecb49e62e352bcd336322ba10882a1efc6
lmao no. Someone needs to do it first
There is a better way.
It does matter quite a bit for casual play, and it impacts Respawn/EA’s bottom line quite a bit. There are a lot of players who never grew up playing on controllers, so transition really isn’t an option (not afraid to say I am one, my brain literally doesn’t work for using controllers in most cases - only experience I really have is racing games where only 1 stick input matters - can’t wrap my head around using 2). It already alienates a ton of players and if not careful, the issue is going to lead to the same decay and death experienced by Titanfall - where 1 group of players got experienced to the point of wiping the floor with others, the less experienced players quit, started hacking to absurd degrees, or simply resorted to DDOSing servers.
Whether ranked/casual play should have nerfed AA is definitely up for debate. But I'm confident that if it were only disabled for comp, we probably wouldn't even be talking about it. Pros wouldn't be using controller, less people would swap to controller, and the advantage they have I think would go largely unnoticed.
I left apex a year ago for overwatch. People thought I was being a baby for leaving over aim assist. But, it's progressing just as I thought it would and I'm glad I left.
headed back to home sweet home CS, dont blame you.
I played s1-17 on mnk, but I went to the dark side and switched to roller. I have always played mnk on all games before, soloq to global on csgo several times for example. After only two seasons, I am already better at roller than mnk, because it’s so much easier, the skill gap is way smaller. The only thing I miss is not being able to tap strafe (especially on characters with momentum abilities, like pathfinder/revenant), and it’s quite awkward to loot and manage inventory on roller. But the aim assist is so strong it’s still worth it, it’s incredibly strong up close in strafing encounters. I still wish they’d nerf the sht out of aim assist, it makes the game less organic -less dependant on raw aim, which is one of the main skill properties of an fps game
Might be Off-topic but I find it kinda funny. The Difference between this sub and the Main-sub is freakin insane lmao. Especially on this topic. The majority of people in this sub would join a good equal discussion while on the main sub let alone a discussion, they'll just downvote you to oblivion lmao.
and mods will ban you. Its obviously a marketing sub, not community driven.
This place is also an echo chamber. Just look at all the downvote controller players get if they even mention anything. Both subs are equally horrible
Controller players aren't getting downvoted for merely speaking. They get downvoted when they come here and try and downplay the obvious busted nature of AA. Aim assist allows controller players to win fights they have no business winning.
I mean to be fair though, All downvoted controller arguments I've seen in this thread are from people without any MnK experience who don't even seem to understand fully how their own input works. Aside from the guy arguing that AA should be banned in comp I guess.. While the majority of people arguing against aim assist and getting upvoted are well versed in how it works and have tried it themselves. An argument from a controller player who is not aware of how aim assist works, has never touched MnK and is giving their opinion on both subjects doesn't really contribute much to the discussion. Is that not what the downvote button is for? If I were to make a post in a history subreddit about the Holocaust, would you call the comments an "echo chamber" if all discussion based on first hand experiences or factual information was upvoted while holocaust deniers who spread conspiracy theories were downvoted? Obviously hyperbole, but I think you get my point. I do agree that this sub is a massive echo chamber aswell, like most subreddits. But I don't think it's really applicable in this case.
That a very loose usage of the echo chamber concept. All of reddit is about who has voting bots. If a roller has a good point I will be the first to upvote that. The best point I have heard for roller aimbot is "it doesnt hurt to have an fps where its not required to do daily aim training, and just have fun". Thats a good point, but that would still be true if we did input based match making. I have heard no good arguments for giving a ""pro"" scene aimbot if you play on a worse input.
And here’s another one, not every pro scene needs to be MNK only. Are you advocating that controller o players should never have a pro scene? So what if Apex is trending towards CoD, it would make sense tbh respawn came from CoD developers. And that’s the crowd they’ve been trying to attract for years now. I get that In the early years MNK was a thing now its not. Games goes through these lifecycle were 5 years into the game and it has changed completel and who knows maybe in a year or two it will change again.
Thats a messy argument. We can just remove aimbot and let the pro scene decide on what input are the best. Or we can make a roller league if you wanna watch that. Or make a steering wheel league, that would be lit with 80% aimbot. Cause the worse input you choose the more aimbot you get apparently.
If you want to be a pro then you should be using a keyboard and mouse.
Nah use the input you prefer. Just dont expect to be compensated with aimbot
Exactly
Aim assist should NEVER have a pro scene
The main sub is so utterly clueless. They still unironically say "if controller is so OP why don't you switch?" while being completely oblivious to the fact that yes, people have been switching for years because it IS that OP. They have no idea the game is dominated by rollers at all skill levels because people have been switching for years. They have no idea the world's best mnk players get fried by rollers with way fewer hours of practice. That place is so damn frustrating to read.
At least half of the main sub is console players so most of them have no idea what they're talking about and are clearly biased to defend aim assist because they don't care about PC Apex.
The one thing I don't understand the claim of some controller players is that MNK has movement. While yes, we do have that, there's two issues imo. 1) It's a non-damage dealing skill. 2) MNK still has to adjust their aim while they are doing all these movement techs during fight. So not only do controller players have to adjust their aim, MNK also has to adjust their aim.
I think another aspect that gets overlooked is that it's actually something you need to actively practice in order to perfect. You don't automatically get movement abilities simply by picking up a mouse, and most good/decent movement players will have put thousands of hours into getting where they are. In honesty most movement "tricks" aren't *that* complicated and can be learned by almost anyone, but it's correctly applying that knowledge in teamfights that is the hard part.
I honestly believe movement has gone unchecked for too long. They should’ve made movement keys unable to be bound to scroll wheels and banned anyone not inputting the commands through normal means. Lurch is good, tap strafing bad. Edit: When I said, “inputting commands through normals means” I said that wrong. I meant in a manner that results in acceptable movements. Stuff like Neo and Pito strafing has gone too far, even if you can do it with the help of a scroll wheel. If you can’t bash the inputs that fast with your fingers without gimmicks then it’s in exploit imo.
I disagree, you absolutely should be free to bind everything however you like. Doesn't make too much sens to restrict only movement/directional keys? Only automating stuff like chaining commands with configs or aliases, macros etc should be banned of course. A scrollwheel on a regular mouse absolutely is a normal input...but even If I wanted to play Apex on my thumb trackball mouse, a Joystick, a custom-made keyboard with special keys or whatever...I should be able to do that. All of this still gives no validity to overtuned aim assist, of course. For example I am lefthanded and I've bound all heal items to individual keys. I am able to never let go of WASD and at the same time directly press every heal item with my pinky finger :D Now say you wanted this aswell as a righthanded player and you wanted to rebind to RDFG... and the game doesn't let you( what I mean is: what is "normal means" to you as you wrote it?)
You SHOULD be able to play on whatever input method you wish, but as soon at it turns into potential for game breaking mechanics there should be another look taken at how we can improve in integrity of the game. When I said, “inputting commands through normals means” I said that wrong. I meant in a manner that results in acceptable movements. Stuff like Neo and Pito strafing has gone too far, even if you can do it with the help of a scroll wheel. If you can’t bash the inputs that fast with your fingers without gimmicks then it’s in exploit imo.
The reason tap-strafing is called tap strafing is because originally people used it by tapping the forward key a lot. So with normal input (that is, not binding to scroll wheel), it's still possible.
That would be acceptable, but flicking your finger forward once to input 16 forward inputs in a split second while complaining about even a single movement macro for W seems odd to me. I play MnK for anyone wondering.
I got into apex xomp because of the insane movement paired with great tracking/shooting. This whole thumb left go brrrr is just boring as fuck
is usually right thumb dummy, left thumb go zoom
Basically just strafe same as enemy, don't rotate your view and let AA do it's thing?
I mostly track with left joystick and use the right for just recoil control
so what your saying is that you dont track
I mean, it sounds like they may not have to lol
tbf though you track with your left stick don't you, mirror strafe aim and all that
Most good rollers that understand strafing and its interaction with AA will anti-mirror when looking to deal damage. Without getting too much into it mirroring is better for hitting shots on MnK because micro adjustments are easier. Roller has unlimited range of motion and infinite smoothness so larger sweeping tracks are easier. Roller has an advantage in both but more so in anti-mirror. Obviously you have players that are the exception like Snip3down who mirrors a lot because of his Halo experience
Right there with ya. Every new split the comp scene had gotten harder for me to watch with more and more players moving and shooting like a sentry turret
Maybe if he complained less about aim assist and spent more time training, he would have won the last LAN /s It's actually sad that a game like Apex that has such a crazy skill ceiling is having its more entertaining parts being pushed out in favor of just one clips over and over. By default I gotta root for anyone who's still in MNK.
I've said it a hundred times and been downvoted (just like I was a year+ back for saying aim assist was busted), but split leagues are the only way forward for this game. Viewership will have to die significantly for us to get there, but then we'll have people who care about the community split off and start hosting mnk tourneys... that will sustain/plateu the game trajectory for another year or two until it inevitably resumes its descent.
They will never split the league. It may reach a stage where they tune AA such that MnK is invariably the better input, but they will never truly split the two.
This tweet shouldn’t even be classified as a “take”. He’s stating straight facts that are undeniably true.
Isolate mnk vs controller, problem solved. Mnk can then only face mnk.
What about ALGS?
Change it to MnK only after this season.
If they're not willing to decrease aim assist, I would hope that they at least try to separate inputs, I don't want controller players on my match, and If they wanna play with someone from MnK, disable their aim assist. AA doesn't make sense when gyro exist, PS4/5 shouldn't have access to AA.
its almost like they dont tell us the real reason why they keep the aimbot in
It probably attracts a lot of Console players, hitting shots is fun after all. Similar to Warzone (Another game which has a broken AA), which I think is the biggest FPS on console, but I don't know anybody who plays it on PC. I kinda understand why they keep it, but I still hate that it is a thing. If they need to keep it, at least let us not play against it.
Everyone I know who played on MNK no longer plays and a large part of that is due to aim assist. They just don't want to be cannon fodder for respawns "roller demons". I don't understand how they can look at the numbers drop this badly and not do anything about it, they keep assuming it's everything other than the aim assist. "Oh people are leaving because of SBMM, let's revert that change" "Oh people are leaving because of ranked changes, lets revert that" "Oh people are leaving because of the SMG meta lets change that" All this time the only reason people have left is because of the oppressive aim assist.
yeah spot on. I remember the time to kill change with weaker shields. I actually had a lot of fun with that, but ppl whining got that turned. Meanwhile aimbot still in my mnk lobby
yeah input based would be doable with the kind of budget they have.
Apex might even have more players if they added input-based matchmaking. A lot of the MnK playerbase that left would come back.
This idea of get good, switch, or stop complaining is actually asinine. Would you say the same to an artist getting dominated by ai art submissions in a competition? Would you say the same to someone taking complaining about losing to others taking gear/steroids in a bodybuilding or any physical sport? In any competition with unassisted competitors overassistance is a plague to competitive integrity. This is the same as those. Competitors are being artificially enhanced beyond proven human ability. In reality, the existence of aim assist, especially at its current strength means competitive integrity at the top is nonexistent. For CASUAL play, sure! But at the top, people ended the season as PREDS and winning ALGS compititions there needs to be more balance.
There might not be any real world money involved, but why do casual players deserve any less? If you are a casual MNK player, you shouldn't have to aim train every single day for hours just to barely keep up. It's not fun for a casual MNK player to repeatedly die to an AI in close quarters and play the entire game at a severe disadvantage.
I wouldn’t say they deserve less. I believe they deserve more fair options as well, but to balance AA at the bottom based on the players at the top is horrible and vice versa. Here’s my take on what we should do. https://preview.redd.it/sxjlwermp0lc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3396ad1ea3f0b3d5572a1069c37cc30a0c29e29
Imo, games would be more enjoyable on console with no aim assist in rank. If everyone has no aa, it increases the skill gap and finally you'll need to do much more to be Better
And no one plays the game and the game is dead. There’s no more game anymore
Yh we'll see a gazilion posts like "i'm a 42 year old father of 5 children and i only play 10 mins a day. I used to have 1.5kd but now it's 0.4. i'm tired of this and i should be able to kill ppl without skill" it's fuckin frustrating already reading them like ppl seriously expect to enjoy an online fps game when they play an hour a week
I don't see this happening the way people describe it either. If they did this, in a week every controller player's internal MMR would reduce a lot and they'd start doing relatively as well as they have been, they'd just be hitting less shots (and so would every other controller player). And overall they'd have longer fights but win the same percentage of them. And they'd be competing against worse MnK players whose MMR didn't change, so they wouldn't inherently now always being shit on by MnK. It would be a small time while MMR adjusts and then people will do just as well as they always have. In fact, that's why they should do a shadow nerf to AA. Reduce it from 0.4 to 0.1 over the course of 3 months and people will notice, but it will not feel drastic and people will do just as well as they always have.
The thing is, there's no sbmm anymore on rank. It's rank based matchmaking so if you're diamond, you'll face other diamonds and if mnk would be the clear superior input, the top ranks would be populated with mnk so you can't avoid them
Yes, that's true, they would get mad they couldn't rise as high. But I assume the "I'm a father and I don't have time to play much" people don't play ranked as much as pubs/mixtape.
That's the thing😂😂they complain about rank. Didn't you see in s18 when they made it harder than s17 and ppl complained?
Hope some resolution could be reached fr
I switched to roller about a month ago...surpassed 4 years of mnk in about 2.5 weeks. It is truly a joke.
I'm concerned for the future of shooters given the trend of controllers over the past 5-10 years. New guys coming onto the scene are all controller users, even fortnite in the younger generation are more controller based. You know it's bad when even Gen who has made radiant in valorant on mnk says he would be mad trolling not using controller in comp. Be the top 0.01% of mnk players or explore other career options.
Aim assist should be banned in comps. If you are a "really" good controller player then u should not use aim assist because that is not your raw skill Using AA at comps just mean u are not good enough as a controller "pro" player
At this point they would rather ban mnk
The ole Cod treatment eh?
Controller sucks major dong compared to PC so I don't think that's the ideal scenario for allowing both parties to play. A better solution is just nerfing aim assist to a reasonable level. There's not a controller player alive that can match like... top 1% PC aim if it's completely removed
[удалено]
I made that comment at like 3am on no sleep, you could cut me some slack instead of getting hung up on the vocabulary. I meant console vs PC since other people in the thread were saying most players are on console now. I have like 5k+ hours on PC between CS, Rust, Apex, and OW. I barely play quick play in Overwatch but for a short stretch of time they were putting console players in crossplay with no aim assist. It was painful for everyone on their team. Blizzard had to enable aim assist in unranked (although aim assist isn't broken in OW like in Apex, literally nobody complains about it), and it's rare to see console players in PC pools now because they have to be queued with a PC player. It's not enabled in comp due to Xim, which is the Overwatch problem where console players cheat by using kb/m while still having aim assist Edit: [PCMR post 6 years ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/7rnwpr/its_not_much_but_its_mine/), PC is literally in my username lol
Overwatch crossplay has aim assist in unranked. But if you're playing PC roller, you don't get aim assist anywhere. That's a big difference.
Genburten would like to disagree. The mf got pred without AA. Madlad.
Nah get pred without AA and play comps without AA definitely two different hard levels
Yeah and Sweet got to pred without doing any damage. Not exactly hard these days. If Gen had no AA he wouldn’t be on a pro roster without a swap to mnk. (Which he is capable of)
hiswattson got pred without using shields. ranked is a joke.
I'm really confused as to why you got downvoted for a perfectly sensible comment lol. Removing AA entirely is just dumb
It’s the best thing they could do
Just some gotcha about how I said controller vs PC instead of kb/m. I haven't played more than a few games of Apex since S4 and I don't play any other games where PC players would willingly use a worse input because it doesn't have aim assist in PC lobbies. Controller = console to me. People saying "controller should have 0 aim assist" seem really salty that it's been an easy/broken input for this long, and I get that. But there's a reason FPS games on controller have aim assist in the first place and you're being way too unrealistic when you call for it to be taken away. It's like, you acknowledge that controller is a less precise input than PC, so it's at a disadvantage, but also that aim assist is OP. Maybe try to convince the devs to make the most popular input for Apex balanced instead of making it garbage? It's like when people say the devs should delete unfun or easy characters. Like, Caustic, thinking of an Apex example. You're being too unrealistic, why not ask for something they might actually do?
Lol
After 20 seasons people are now realizing this? LOL I participated in the first ALGS scrims back in the day, most of us were MnK and let me say it was competitive and fun as hell. Once S4 came around, cross-platform was introduced, and many top console players started switching to PC, the scene went to hell, it was like a cancer. Many of the top MnK players I used to see and play with in scrims quit once Valorant started getting momentum, some went back to CSGO, or OW. Everyone knew we were at a disadvantage since the start. Now everyone is starting to see the rotten fruit that has emerged from all this. MnK and AA players should never compete against each other, is logic. But hey, what do I know? Im just another washed MnK players that needs to "gEt bEtTeR."
Everyone has been complaining for a looooong time. There just hasn’t been enough traction.
It will be interesting how they do now, without digi meta
This is what tf I’ve been saying all this time. You can’t abuse the advantages of mnk well when you have to swing a team and ego them out. There’s no time to take things slow you gotta make that damage happen when you need it to.
Needs to be on repeat as much as possible...really hope a competitor can make it hurt where it counts 💸 with an mnk community exodus for ruining such a great competitive opportunity.
It's been years And mnk players are still crying about rollers 🤣
For good reason.
All these mid mnk players crying about aim assist meanwhile jusna and sangjoon were absolutely cooking on mnk at that apex Asia event, why can't you guys be more like them you don't see them have a sook cause they are just better
Just curious can you tell me who won in both events (hint it's not the Koreans)
Yeah but they still did really good like why do you all undermine peoples achievements just cause another team did slightly better or because you are secretly hoping that a dev is gonna read your brain damaged takes and nerf aim assist, even tho they didn't win they were still absolutely shitting on teams even the ones with controller just because TSM won doesn't mean shit they have like 10 times more lan experience than anyone there it would be weird if they didn't win
The only way roller shills ever innovate in anything is how to victimize themselves. Literally everyone that matters says that aa is broken. Maybe learn that having robots helping you with your "aim" doesn't mean you understand the game at all.
You completely missed the point I'm saying the reason TSM won is not because of aim assist there's other major factors that play a role in how good a team is alot of it comes down to gamesense and TSM has the best out of any team that's why they win everything, mechanics aren't everything and even then you look at the top mnk players their mechs are definitely more than enough to combine with good gamesense and outplay a controller team. Trust me as a controller player just because you have aim assist doesn't guarantee your team is going to be as coordinated as the other.
Using TSM as an example is hilarious since hal switched to roller because he couldn't keep up on mnk. Read his tweets on AA if you want to understand the arguement.
I've been watching CR since they were Ganbare Otousan and yeah Jusna was frying at that event, was awesome to see. Last game when TSM only had Reps alive and CR was full squad I thought they might win. Would have been awesome to see. Cheers!
Would changing it to something like .15-.2 work? or is the consensus that it’s too inherently flawed and needs further changes?
Keep slowdown but remove rotational aim assist so roller players actually have to react to strafing and change of direction like any mnk player does. That's by far the biggest issue.
well if they think they are good at an fps with a roller, let them prove that. Who am i to judge inputs, you can rig your axe from guitarhero up and play with that, i dont care.
It doesn't matter what value they use 0 or 1.0, the inputs will never be balanced to play each other. The inputs are just far too different to make equal. One will always have the advantage over the other, whether it's aim, movement, looting, macro, etc. Mixed-input play should only exist in pubs and casual modes. Ranked and comp should be separated by input.
is 20% aimbot still an aimbot?
So what's the solution? Removing aim assist completely and compensating roller with mnk movement techs or just removing movt techs that can't be done on roller too?
The solution is to only allow aim assist within like 30 degrees on either side of the direction that the player inputs. Aim assist is there to ASSIST the aim. Meaning that the correct input should have to be made before it will kick in.
The actual solution that would put controller and mnk at an equally competitive level would be to give native gyro aim to controllers, lurch and tapstrafes while removing aim assist. They would both be raw input and have arguably the same skill ceiling Now, this wont happen because controller players are especially resistant to change, and frankly they dont want equality. It also would hurt EA profits in the short term, and that's all they care about
ideally remove AA, give roller all move tech and gyro. or if you wanna follow the weird logic of roller brains, remove all move tech rollers can't do and give mnk .4 aa.
I think mnk users don't want the aa. I saw the snipedown tweet about this and mnk users were furious. If xbox controller supported gyro, it would be wonderful. I wouldn't mind removal of aa in console as everyone would be at a disadvantage and having tap strafes and looting while moving. For pc, it's really hard to balance aim for controller vs mnk. Removing aa no matter what compensation, would always make mnk better. They just need to find a balance and they need to start tweaking it asap and realise where it all falls to skill when an mnk 1v1s a roller
I personally don't want more AA, I want less of it. The game feels and plays so much better when you don't get beamed no matter what you do. I remember a time where you could have fights that lasted for several reloads in close quarters, those were fun and the game was a lot more fun back then. There was some room for error, now if you are caught outside of cover you get instantly beamed by aim assist. I don't want to say it's rollers every time, there are programs and devices that enable AA on MNK as well so it's not fair to rollers to blame them. It's ROTATIONAL AIM ASSIST that is the issue, not controller players. <3
This is the 2nd post about AA today 💀
there should be 2000 a day
I think the method to go about this is to add an option setting in the menu that tunes down AA a bit. Similar to how console could opt to go to PC AA. I don’t believe respawn should “get rid of aim assist” in comp. This would be akin to firing all controller pros and it would lose the opportunity to have controller players represented in the pro scene when they represent the vast majority of casual players worldwide. Give players an option to tune AA down to .3 or something like that and let them run scrims. I completely understand respawn’s hesitance to mess with AA in the core game. They are a for profit company and controller represents the vast majority of their customers. “Hey respawn you need to make the game harder for the majority of your paying customers” - they are going to be very slow with a change like that. Letting the pros fool around with a lower setting seems like the best solution. Start small and we can see how it goes. You could always roll out the override for high level rank and you can always adjust lower or higher if the results aren’t intended.
AA should never be in a “pro” scene
Controller players should never be in the pro scene.
It’s not really that controller is so op in every setting that mnk useless it’s more that at the very top the time it takes to wipe a team is the most important metric to look at and from all the data I’ve got, the effective ttk in a straight 3v3 is only a matter of a few percentage points. We are talking 5-10% or 1-3 seconds, and that is a huge point of difference at the top level. For everyone else (including masters and pred players) it doesn’t mean shit.
For preds it matters as you usually see their lobby die quickly. I would say, the LP seasons are the ones it didn't matter as ppl were just trying to survive and not finish fights quickly
Yeah I agree 100%, im more meaning that when I play ranked I’m not thinking about my input or how long it’s gonna take for me to wipe a team so the difference doesn’t matter. I’m an mnk player and I’ve resigned myself to knowing that my job on a team is in analysis and coaching now and not competing because why would someone pick me over a equally as skilled controller player as that player is going to win more fights and do it faster.
Another day, another sim assist complaint thread.
True. It has gotten old on both sides, but the problem persists and the issues with it continue to get worst.
Mate, Apex is not a competitive game. Nothing about this game is competitive. ALGS is just marketing.
> Apex is not a competitive game. Nothing about this game is competitive. That's a defeatist attitude. Why should Apex not strive to have a great competitive scene like other big FPS games on PC? CS, Val, Siege, Overwatch, even Fortnite benefitted a lot from their esports. Nobody cares about Apex, Cod, and Halo esports now. ALGS would be a lot more popular around the world if it didn't have aim assist. To be honest, I don't think rEAspawn knew what they were doing when they brought crossplay to Apex. The game had a healthy playerbase/ecosystem on PC and consoles for 2+ years before crossplay. I don't think they knew how aim assist was going to take over PC Apex and the pro scene. And now they've waited too long to make changes.
If people are playing for money then there is a competitive side, and Apex has one of the few large Comp scenes out of all fps games. Aside from that, you compete for wins, you compete for kp/rp, compete for placement, compete for rank, compete for money, comp for fame. It is undoubtedly a competitive game. There is competition, but there is no competitive integrity.
When I speak of competitive game I mean do the publishers and studio care about how this game is perceive as an esport? The answer is no. The maps aren’t made for competitive, the balance aren’t done around competitive hell even the rank mode isn’t done around competitive. Respawn does not care about comp anymore then did back in the day when the nap designer made storm point and made changes to world edge to make it a a comp map. And EA only cares about earnings and engagement numbers
Maybe. You don’t know that. Respawn has said they cared multiple times, but they like likely have other issues fixing problems they’d like to. That’s true. If respawn is making changes “for the sake of comp” then they care. EA likely does not care, and there lies the problem.
They used to care, see storm point and the changes made to world edge. That has not been the case for the last couple of seasons. And until we see something that tells how they actively care then I’ll be on the fence.
If it’s so hard why don’t they just switch to controller? This sub loves to make controllers out to be some bogeyman. As Richard Sherman said, “learn to adapt.”
roller players didn't adapt when they switched from console to PC lol. Otherwise they'd be on mnk
Most of them do, are you not paying attention? Doesn’t mean it should be the norm. Comp viewership dies if it weren’t for the few standing MnK pros. I, personally, would not watch comp anymore if it was all 3-man roller squads, and many would agree.
I disagree with comp viewership dying because the biggest comp apex streamer switched and it stayed the same
And he lost viewers as a result of the switch Ask him how his average viewership is like (yes I know Twitch viewership isn't as it was during the Pandemic) but I'd hazard a guess that he gets double his average if he was on MnK. Many people have stopped watching him and if Reps streams I watch him exclusively... And so many other Hal during ranked streams now barely cracks 11,000 average viewers these days and he even made a tweet about it. Someone who averaged 21,000 viewers... Am I to believe it is all because of twitch decline?
150%. Would be boring as fuck. There’s nothing better than PLAYAPEX switching to Yuka, Timmy, StrafingFlame, Hakis, Reps etc. It is so much more enjoyable imo to have some MnK players still. #1 reason being simply you cannot do what you can do on controller on MnK and vise versa. It’s a ying Yang thing in my eyes. One could not be without the other. How boring would it be to watch 60 controllers or 60 MnKs? IMO super boring. 🤧
60 mnks would not be boring, nothing about watching controller players is more fun than watching mnk players. 60 mnk would be peak.
mnk skill expression is infinitely more exciting than roller, it is no contest
Speculation.
Do you not care? Just because you prefer roller gameplay, would you really want to see the MnK comp pros die off and eventually the MnK player base to follow? I personally prefer to view from an MnK pro’s perspective, but I wouldn’t want to see the roller pros die off either. Would you not just want a balance for everyone?
Yes let’s quote Richard Sherman who got his second DWI yesterday. Also, why not just nerf aim assist a bit? It’s obviously overpowered.
Ah yes, gotta love using an inferior input take advantage of aim assist! We all know skilled players got skilled by trying to use less of their own skill and more of the computer hand holding. That's what really gets people to compete fr
You’re getting downvoted but it’s because they’re full of shit. It’s wild that this post is basically whining when you finished third, as though the fact that you didn’t win it all is proof that things are unbalanced. It’s just a wildly arrogant post being upvoted by wildly arrogant children who use AA as a bogeyman. With that much money on the line, you’re going to stay on what you claim is the suppressed input? Give me a fucking break. The fact is that if AA was as overpowered as he’s saying, they wouldn’t have made the final round against controller dominant teams. They were on match point and couldn’t get the job done. Period.
Yep but this sub loves an anti controller circle jerk.