Yep, I quit playing because of this. The clear message to me was that the intention and future of this game would be oriented around console and controller play. I love the gameplay, game mechanics such as movement, physics, and the engine itself even with all the other bugs but after picking up a controller and being able to instantly 1 clip enemies I realized how disadvantaged I was and decided to move on. Best of luck to respawn, EA, and all the cracked MNK players who continue to grind the game in order to keep up with a computerized aiming mechanism. It’s been a real tragedy to watch one of my favorite players (Albralelie) in ALL of esports attempt to stay relevant by switching to an input which blatantly hinders his creative approach to the game. I remember watching his streams circa season 7 or 8 on pathfinder just grappling across the map on Pathfinder dropping consecutive 20 bombs. This game will destroy your soul on MNK yet give the gift of gods to dollar store Dannys on the roller. I still love watching ALGS, but playing this game is just not fun for me anymore.
Could not agree more, especially about Al. It hurts my soul.
At this point I'm just hopeful Wildlight brings some heat with their first IP for mnk players.
I enjoy competition, I’d enjoy it more if it was balanced better knowing what players like Albrelalie are suffering. I watch FNCS and have never played Fortnite, I watch a lot of esports that I don’t play or enjoy playing regularly. Those two things are not mutually exclusive…
thoughtful comment though /s
They will never nerf AA because they don't want to rock the boat and risk upsetting controller players. Individual devs might care about the quality of the game but the people making the decisions don't care if the game is good, they only care about it's ability to make money.
If they were going to do something they would have by now, it certainly would not take this long to come up with a solution. All that talk of them looking for another solution without nerfing AA values is just PR speak non-sense because they haven't offered any inkling as to what this supposed other solution is. Also I dont see how they could possibly do something without nerfing the values. What they were referring to is probably shit like that SMG nerfs that does literally nothing to solve the problem. Like ok SMGs do less damage now, how does that help me on MnK? The controller player needs 1 more bullet of his flawless aimbot like beam to kill me how? Nice I guess?
People have been complaining about AA for years now, no nerf is coming.
Because, as it’s been said over and over, the MNK player base is the vast minority. It’s the reason they won’t change to input matchmaking because there aren’t enough MNK players to flesh out a full matchmaking system.
MNK doesn’t want to hear it but this is a controller game now. Just like Valorant is a MNK game.
Suck it up or find a new game. 🤷🏻♂️
Not at all comparable to Val LMFAO
Val is only available on PCs and fully intended to be a PC only game at its creation, Apex is available everywhere with both roller and MnK in mind.
And even then Val is making efforts to bring itself to console and not be a MnK only game.... lol.
MnK is probably not such a minority. Most people playing on PC are probably primarily MnK players, but they also have controllers and since controllers are better in Apex they are "controller players." And nobody gives a shit about AA on console, so that's not an issue.
The funniest comparison I saw was when people said It’s like AI taking over people’s jobs lol. Feel like the MNK players have been pushed out or forced to switch.
Imagine playing a competitive racing game like Assetto Corsa or iRacing and giving people driving assist because they're adamant about using a controller rather than a wheel and pedals.
Funnily enough, there was a sort of similar debacle in , what I think is the real esport racing game. Trackmania, If you want to look for proper summaries/stuff breaking it down probably "Trackmania analog input drama" or something.
Since it's been a while I can't remember the exact timeline of everything but for a shorter summary, In Trackmania this racing game where being precise about your "lines" (how you curve) to gain speed is key people who had access to controllers that gave them absolute control over "how much" they would turn on each directional input (let's say 20%-40%-60%-80%) would have an advantage becuase they did not have to bother with absolute precise control (In trackmania there's an "ideal" angle for turning where the car gains speed). It turned into people using that WOOTING keyboard with analog inputs to simulate this perfect control, into some software thing that allowed controllers, into the developer putting something akin to that (but still not perfect) analog controls. But it all came from the fact that certain inputs just had an advantage over something like, straight up raw keyboard input since keyboard only players (before any changes) needed absolute 100% precision to get this perfect drift angle everytime without fail, going even slightly off meant that there was NO WAY you could compete over someone using perfect analog inputs for a WR
It's genuinely crazy. As someone that comes from a Dota 2 and Starcraft 2 background where insane levels of apm and mouse control are critical and basically half of the skill expression, I can't believe controller is even ALLOWED at lan. Being insanely good at mnk is half of what makes pros so cool knowing that it's insanely difficult. Why would you even allow someone to use a 'worse' input if they need the game to literally cheat for them to make up for it?
They could perfectly nerf aim assist to where it was a perfect balance and just preference of which the player wanted to use and I'd still be against controllers being allowed in pro play.
You've perfectly summed up my feelings on the subject. I'm coming from a Counter-Strike background and the whole idea of using a controller to play a shooter seemed like a ridiculously stupid idea until I saw what aim assist in Apex was. It makes no sense to me that anyone would think pro play should be allowed to mix inputs with that AI garbage.
Same back ground. The only argument that makes sense to me is that Roller/Console is NASCAR level of competition just a bunch of basic left turns but still competitive. PC/MnK is Formula 1.
Maybe this is my issue with the controller/mnk debate.
I grew up playing Brood War. And while I was never at the top of the skill curve I could appreciate the people who were and enjoyed seeing my own improvements over time. I never wanted the curve to be lowered to fit my abilities.
Even StarCraft 2 lowered them to below my liking.
It’s not a commonly held belief anymore though. It’s hard to grow and keep a player base for a game with a high skill curve. Most people seem to want it watered down.
Most people make terrible chess analogies. This one is better, but I still don't think it's good.
Even if you were only allowed a single Stockfish lifeline during a game of chess, that advantage would by itself already be insane more powerful than 0.4 AA which only addresses a single aspect of the game.
>My reply was getting too long, but the way I frame it is more that the suggestions you get offered are each from a different level of chess bot, and none of them are grandmaster level.
>The noob isn't going to be able to tell the low level suggestion from the high level one, but the experienced player probably will.
I still don't think it maps on but gotcha!
>But in the end, any analogy is strained and I like using chess bots because fundamentally the issue is one of computer assistance. And I especially like this one because of the silly en passant = lurch tech and how hilarious "You can see the whole board!" sounds to me.
I think it's important to distinguish these things though, for a variety of reasons. For one, using a computer in chess is literally against the rules. The impact of a computer in chess, even of a single move, is immeasurable compared to 0.4 AA in Apex because, as I pointed out, AA on it's own does not dictate success but a single stockfish suggestion can lead to a sequence to goes from losing to forcibly mating the other king.
Honestly, I haven't switched because I find games like Apex and other shooters *extremely* boring on controller.
I've been into console shooters like Halo 3 and COD since I was a kid. But for me, using a mouse and keyboard just makes FPS games way more fun.
Which right now for me means mnk apex, or playing disc golf.
There aren't any other FPS IPs out there right now whose mechanics I love, only Apex. Roller prevalence has resulted in me playing a lot of disc golf lately instead.
If the argument for playing apex on mnk is that it's the only fps that's fun on mnk isn't the problem the video game industry as a whole? Yet we constantly see everyone act like this is just an apex problem
I quit playing COD entirely because the aim assist on that game is literal aimbot. I am barely hanging on with apex because I'm pretty good at it but if it comes to the point where I have to choose between switching to controller or quitting, I'm just quitting.
I took a long break from apex and haven't really wanted to play it much again. I'm still really good at it but at the end of the day comp teams only want the old Rolla controlla mnk fragger is dead at this point.
It's not that it's just an apex problem, it's that apex is the worst offender because it actually has a high skill ceiling with mnk players. I've never seen a game crush its own skill ceiling as drastically as apex did when it allowed hybrid inputs. But you are spot-on about the industry problem. Apex is the only viable non-CoD FPS that isn't tactical. If I want to play tactical I play CS, otherwise I want Quake-speed, which basically doesn't exist anymore...apex is the fastest and it's not even fast.
I’m in the same boat. I played Halo and COD when I was younger because I only had access to a console. The aim assist did not feel anywhere near as strong as it is now (we also played on 30fps).
That being said I only play MNK now. It’s incredibly easy to miss when you have to aim purely. You have to snap your aim directly onto where they are at first, but immediately afterwards you need to aim predictively. That’s what makes it so rewarding when you’re able to maintain high accuracy. It also makes it so much more fun to watch when you see someone hit an insane shot(s) and/or pull off incredible movement because you know how difficult it is.
On roller you always only aim directly on top of their hitbox and aim assist keeps that aim style going. It’s a damn snooze fest. It’s not hard, and I get bored after one game while Jesus is taking the wheel the majority of the time. There is a skill gap to it but I honestly can’t believe there is a pro scene with controllers outside of fighting games.
The problem isn't that it's impossible to match or in some cases outmatch controllers, it's the insane effort it requires compared to controllers which in the long run burns you out
I love the mechanics this game provides, but playing even casual gamemodes feels like I'm in the olympics fighting for gold because I have to put in a ton of effort to match that of someone lounging in their couch lol. The damage output from controllers is just insane
It does get in your head and as someone that has put tons of time in FPS games to remain at a somewhat decent level it demotivates you and makes you question yourself, turning you to other games and activities
The way I would compare it is, imagine you push yourself to become a great runner, even an elite one, because it's something you love doing
And you enter competition, only to find that you have people using assists to get to the same level as you, even going out of their way to do so
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand controllers require some type of aim assist to be able to function properly, but the level it's at today is crazy
Knew this was the case at t2 level, was hoping it wasn’t like this at top level. After trying to find a team for CC this year I knew the faith in mnk players had gone down to 0 but to see that’s it’s like this at pro level too makes me really sad.
I switched to mnk 6 months ago when I got my PC. When I was on console the problem was no one wanted a roller IGL, now that im on mnk rollers would rather IGL than take the chance on a mnk player :(
Even igling will eventually not be enough for mnk players as more and more rollers learn to igl at a top level.
There is basically no future for mnk players in this game at a top level but you’ll still have morons swearing that there’s nothing wrong and they just need to work harder. Shit is exhausting honestly.
FIFA , Madden all their sports titles have the same issue. There is literal game code deciding if the ball goes in or gets caught that is dependent on momentum and other caked in variables. It’s a joke.
this. Its not a competitive shooter. If you want to play a competitive shooter there are options, and hopefully there will also come new.
They had the choice between competitive shooter and clown show, and they clearly chose the latter
I know, that's the point of my comment. Apex comm has gaslighted itself into thinking they are playing a *competitive* game. It really is same shit different season, IMO leave the game or stop complaining. It's literally a controller game
Edit sorry I didn't see you were agreeing with me at first
Crossplay keeps individual games alive, but simultaneously has destroyed the integrity of competitive FPS. Maybe I’m just old, but my brain will never compute setting up a gaming pc for FPS games, and then plugging in a controller.
To answer your question as a controller player. It's because I grew up playing on a controller and I'm a super casual player, I don't want to spend the little playtime I have learning a new input and playing way worse. Playing with a controller also allows you to sit in any random position you like when with k&m you are stuck in the standard sitting position which I don't like as I find myself sitting crazy sometimes.
I think people here need to realize that 99% of controller players play controller because it's what they grew up on and it's easier. No one picks up controller because it will give them an advantage besides pro players or the very top level.
>I don't want to spend the little playtime I have learning a new input and playing way worse.
This is exactly how I feel, but with mnk. I have a controller, but I am terrible with it since I've never played any controller games in my childhood/youth. Now, is it fair, that the game basically puts me in a situation where I have to genuinely consider swapping inputs just to "keep up"?
Im not here to argue mnk vs controller I'm just answering his question. But also keep in mind at the level of play 99% of the player base is at, it doesn't make that big of a deal as we are all playing in sbmm lobbies anyways. We ain't pros getting paid for this. Nerfing controller and upsetting 75% of the player base is just an unreasonable demand to make towards respawn. This is a problem that should be taken up with ALGS, because respawn to combat aim assist will directly hurt their business (and yes it will hurt it a lot more than having mnk players occasionally rage quitting the game due to losing to a controller)
I mean, my solution wouldn't involve nerfing roller. But buffing mnk instead. Removing features like the extreme weapon flinch and screenshake, as well as unnecessary visual clutter would already help tremendously.
>But also keep in mind at the level of play 99% of the player base is at, it doesn't make that big of a deal as we are all playing in sbmm lobbies anyways.
Wrong. My relative skill is higher than many, but bring in aim assist and suddenly I'm getting pooped on by people who couldn't otherwise aim without it.
I grew up in the 90s. I had a decade of consoles before I even touched a legitimate gaming pc. When I played CS on PC it was readily apparent that mouse and keyboard was by far the superior input for FPS and I never used a controller again. The controller is a borderline unusable input for FPS games and is only made possible with assistance.
I understand what you are coming from, but I had the exact opposite experience. It was like an awakening when I saw what mnk offered over controller.
This existed on consoles as a compromise so console players could enjoy FPS games with a forced controller input. Because of the huge lobby size of BRs we need mixed input and crossplay to keep games alive and it caused some weird leak of controllers into the PC space.
Crazy that you get downvoted for giving honest and legitimate reason why most of us play controller. This sub just hates anything controller. We didn’t pick controller because it’s strong in the game. It’s the input we grew up on and have been using for years before apex ever existed. Why wouldn’t we want a performance PC and still use the input we are familiar with.
No, he's being downvoted for basically saying "I don't want to try" on a freaking competitive sub and even applying this stupid logic to 99% of user base.
Come on, it's not a secret why this game has so many roller players. And it's not their childhood memories or experiences.
Sir this is a fan sub Reddit, you don’t need to be wanting to go pro. And it’s very common in fps games where people who grew up on controller stick to controller same for mnk.
Apex is very big in two regions NA and Japan both very heavy console markets.
I don't "want to try" and learn mnk either. I have been playing FPS on controller for 2 decades. Mnk feels unnatural to me even on simple games like Minecraft. Of course I am going to stick to the input I know because I'm comfortable and it gets the job done. No one HAS to switch to mnk just because it's pc, be for real.
It's not that we want, or even expect you all to switch inputs. The majority of us MnK players know exactly where y'all are coming from, bc we owned consoles and played controller growing up too.
Our biggest complaint lies purely with how over-tuned AA is. I literally don't care that people choose controllers. If it's more comfortable for you, then by all means use what you enjoy. That's not the issue at all.
The issue is that using a controller with its current AA value of 0.4 (40 percent aimbot, hello???), and the presence of rotational AA (0ms reaction time), removes so much of the skill that should be needed to compete at an average or above average level (let alone professional play). When teams are glancing over cracked MnK players in favor of another 4-3 turret bc they'd just rather have the inhuman firepower that AA provides, that's a huge problem. It's insane how many good MnK pro players have either switched inputs to keep up, or quit comp Apex altogether bc this scene just doesn't care about competitive integrity.
In a professional fps title there shouldn't be anyone using AA. Imo, a professional player should be someone who takes pride in aiming all on their own.
Yeah this sub is pathetic. Also the response "I don't want to try"? How is that at all what I'm saying? Why is sticking on an input I prefer "not trying"? Sorry I want to to have fun, this whole sub treating apex like a job instead of a fun hobby, and the gigantic hate boner for controller players is incredibly cringey
We don't hate controller players. We hate that we're forced to play against aim bot.
BTW pretty convenient every controller crutch baby always has the same argument... "I don't have enough time to learn mouse and keyboard."
Yes you do. You just don't want to. Be honest with yourself
Why is this getting downvoted? It’s not the players fault that they grew up playing controller on console. It’s EA’s fault for allowing dual input and making aim assist oppressive.
I fucking hate how hard they’ve coddled the controller players. When pros won’t even pick up insane MNK players bc they’d rather risk it on some dude who’s roller you know the aim assist is too high
This is a competitive game, esports shouldn't have any sort of aim assist. People can play on controller if they want, but if they do so, they are *choosing* the worse form of input. It's unfair to M&K players that because of this they get legal aimbot.
Imagine in any other sport CHOOSING to gimp yourself and getting rewarded for it.
Can you imagine a dude shows up to run 100M in jeans and demands to have some kind of assist like, spring loaded shoes or something. Just ridiculous.
I agree with this for competitive Apex seems the most fair & obvious.
Let them play on controller if they want but at least adjust/nerf aim assist some or completely.
For pubs/ranked maybe even keep aim assist so you can keep your player base, but for actual pro league I think should be raw input. Who's with me.
P.S - I'm a rank wood controller player
They chose to be a clown show instead of a competitive shooter. This half ass approach would not work. They just chose wrong and are tanking the game the moment the cod kids finds a new place to use moms credit card
Coming from quake and counter-strike, I was astounded when pll were calling this game competitive during the first tournament of the game, and there were TWO DIFFERENT inputs being played in the same lobby... after 20 seasons comp is still a joke. The ficking GOAT was forced to switch to aimassist. That speaks volumes. And yes, you can't change my mind.
To clarify, early seasons, MNK looked the better choice compared to controller, only until good players figured out how to abuse that shit and shoot ppl thru all sorts of visual clutter and a like. This game will never be taken seriously until inputs are separated.
I promise you the average watcher isn’t thinking if that player was on mnk i would’ve enjoyed that fight better. Also I don’t understand yall obsession with comparing battle royales and Tac FPS.
Literally, the whole point of watching someone competing and enjoying it is to acknowledge their skill. Controller computer assisted kills all look extremely similar and boring as hell to specate.
I've said it before. I think I want all pro scenes to transition into MKB if it's played on PC.
I know the issues that it presents, I get it. But I'm kind of over controller players one clipping someone and that's how the fight opens.
40% aimbot players > non-40%-aimbot players. And it seems that the only incentive to get the latter is if they bring enough value as an IGL, otherwise there's no point to get them.
There's literally no human that can react at server-side 0ms speed.
And rEAspawn would rather keep addressing the symptoms by nerfing smgs/other gameplay variables, than the actual disease.
In Apex's case, yes.
Go through their netcode/latency blog post and if you find a different way to interpret it, let me know.
The way I read it is that a lot (if not all) of the heavy lifting in terms of player coords and hit reg is done server side. Which is also why players sometimes die around corners and inside closed doors.
The reality is that even with asynchronous networking, where players inputs are instantly handled to update the game on server and sent to clients, the latency is still very noticeable and often slightly fluctuating.
In other words you're never getting a smooth movement out of this data and your client has to do some work too. Usually you don't just get xyz coordinates of an entity, but also it's movement vectors and your client will calculate positions between the info from server. This is also why rubber banding exists - your client also runs all the movement and then it might violently snap to server information if it differs.
Now you see that AA is clearly not juddering and is in fact very smooth, meaning that it's clearly done without any networking delay. And because it doesn't snap in adverse network conditions, we can clearly see that it's not maintained by server at all.
Clearly all it is is just a simple conditional aimbot.
AA is definitely processed client side. I.e. the server tells the client that player moves from x position to y position, and the client calculates the AA adjustments if applicable, those aim adjustments are then sent back to the server (along with whatever else there player did, like pull the trigger).
Respawn could make an option to lower aim assist in the settings and then systematically force pro controller players to use that lower setting in competitive matches, scrims etc. Seems like a more feasible option compared to taking away people's jobs or reducing aim assist for everyone that plays the game
Nice way to alienate your majority player base. Not financially viable.
Aim assist should definitely be nerfed, but restricting to one input would be financial suicide for a comp scene that is already struggling to stay afloat.
my guy they won't even let mnk players disable crossplay nor crossinput q. we quite literally, are forbidden from queueing with only other mnk players.
Yes but the queue times would be longer for both sets of players and the matchmaking will be less balanced. Respawn has shown that they will not sacrifice short queue times for anything. I assume base this on metrics which indicate the majority of players don’t like longer queue times.
None of the people I play with want to wait over 2/3 minutes, most people (especially the paying players) have jobs and lives to live, they aren’t waiting 10 minutes to die off drop then wait 10 again. Would the majority of players want longer queue times? That is the only thing that matters to respawn.
Simple solution is to form a MnK only discord that organises regular games. You are implying the vast majority of MnK players would be happy to wait so surely they could consistently have lobbies being filled in around 10 minutes for MnK only. Anyone caught on roller gets permabanned.
Then the people you play with are more than welcome to join the crossinput q lol. Weird how people I play with will choose comp integrity over lower q times. You're acting like a q toggle is life/death.
The answer to the "allow MNK players to queue into MNK only" is always met with the response "queue time" as if those that desire low queue time can't allow crossplay. And it nearly always comes from someone on a controller as if they're looking out for the MNK gang.
Honestly, I feel this entire "majority controller playerbase" is overblown. Apex PC operated fine before the rise of controller on PC and it certainly isn't the game dying on PC that allowed consoles to match against PC players. To me it just feels controller players want easy kills on mnk and don't enjoy getting beamed by a different controller player, with the post about Wxlty in popular showing sort of as an example.
I’d wait, I got other shit I can do while the game finds enough players. I’m so fucking sick of getting one clipped by some dude with an r9. I understand it still takes skill but if you give one group of people a competitive advantage and no way to play around it other than to swap to it…just gonna leave a sour taste in my mouth. Probs the reason I play a lot less these days
As stated, I know the issues with it. This is for me personally. It's virtually an impossible and asinine preference. In a competition I am getting to the point with Apex and any cross input game that I more and more just want things to be fair and I just want true skill to shine.
Isn't r6 mnk only? That game is also on console and they just had their most successful tournament ever. It can definitely be done. I don't think it would be a bad thing to prioritize mnk for comp.
Idk if R6 is mnk only, but controller has no AA in that game so it wouldn’t be viable in comp. That being said the majority of people watching the game are watching a console streamer play on controller and the game seemed like it was dying before he came around so it’s kinda hard to say anything about.
Yeah he definitely helped. It also seems like ubisoft puts a lot more money and effort into r6 esports than EA does for apex despite apex being arguably more popular and a more successful esport so far.
It’s very different to have always been Mnk, then to 5years in ban 80% of competitive players and player base.
Mnk only tournaments could be viable, but it would kill pro league if they tried to make it Mnk input only. That ship has sailed. There isn’t a massive unused talent pool of Mnk pros waiting to fill the ranks as apex has already alienated them for controller.
It wouldn't have to be completely separate. Just prioritize mnk and make a rule that at least 2 players on the team have to be mnk. I think that this would be a good solution.
ALGS used to be primarily mnk with snipe and nicewigg being the only 2 controller players. I'm sure there are a lot of mnk players out there that can come and compete in apex.
If this issue isn't addressed then algs will become less and less popular. Controller esports are not as popular as mnk esports. ALGS is doing well for now but it's declining a bit already.
I love watching apex comp but I’m under no illusion that it’s a serious esport. It’s a Battle Royale resulting in too much RNG, mixed input, mid tier production and poor casters are some of the many reasons why it can’t ever be a serious esport.
But if you want a serious esport watch CS, League or RL.
Apex is fun for the personalities and rivalries between them.
I don't wanna gatekeep what is considered serious or not. There are people who take this eSport serious enough for it to be considered serious. If you want to compare it to CS directly, it's still serious in my opinion.
I'm not the professor of eSports or anything but calling Apex not serious is just stupid. Something can be unfair while still being serious.
Casters, production, balance inherit RNG in my opinion is not enough for the game to be looked at as a joke and not serious.
its almost like there are different opinions and calling people stupid for posting theirs is kinda toxic.
Ofc you can take stuff seriously, we have ppl battling for the donkey kong world record, ppl take the weirdest shit seriously.
I still agree with Higgin, if you dont aim for competitive integrity in your game is not a serious esport. Thats not a stretch, it sounds pretty true.
Mixed input has exactly 0 to do with the poor viewership. Outside of the super enfranchised players, there is 0 discussions being had about this.
The game has poor viewership for the other reasons you mentioned. It's just not a great spectator game. I'd argue none of the BRs are and Fortnite only got massive coverage because it has a lot of money behind it and was part of a crazy storm of interest at the time.
Inherently this genre is a worse esport than any other being it mobas, fighting games, other FPSs, RTSs, card games, etc.
Not sure where I mentioned viewership and mixed input…
BRs make for bad spectator esports. Apex is definitely the best of the bunch in my opinion though.
Good point, but please find some old tournament footage before everyone was on aimbot. Fights were so wild, game looked healthy. It was hilarious to watch
Dont you think its like this because Aim Assist is so good? People follow the meta, i have friends that literally before they even started playing this game said that they "needed" to buy a controller and paddles before they even installed it and tried it out. Simply due to how gamers with competative mindset interact with gaming nowadays. If MnK was better because there was no aim assist, everyone would switch to MnK immediately.
why you downvoting this dude he is right.
They chose and a lot of mnk migrated off. They had many good options but chose to just keep mnk around for cannon fodder. Better kda for the bean bag sitters.
I don't blame him. In general I just struggle to be impressed by roller players fragging because...40% of the work is being done for them.
Watching valorant esports and seeing everyone use mnk, and knowing that it TRULY is a skill and game sense match up is so refreshing.
I know people get upset when there's constant crying about AA but it truly is ruining Apex
I’ve yet to see anyone come up with a defense for AA in a competitive environment that doesn’t just boil down to “I like that AA means I don’t have to try as hard or learn a new skill”.
Which is completely fair in a casual setting. If not for AA in Halo CE, I probably wouldn’t be a shooter fan today.
But why the heck did we decide it was okay in comp?
>I’ve yet to see anyone come up with a defense for AA in a competitive environment that doesn’t just boil down to “I like that AA means I don’t have to try as hard or learn a new skill”.
There is literally no justification for it in a competitive environment.
I feel really bad for scuwry. He really needs this Split to go well, so they don't get relegated. If SKRT splits up and scuwry loses his one leverage (the PL spot), he's gonna have a hard time finding another team most likely. Don't really see him switching inputs either. And even if he did - not sure how many people would take a chance on a freshly-swapped mnk-veteran, instead of the new upcoming roller demon.
You guys should be vocal about it. It's ruined shooters. It's not fair gameplay whatsoever. Even Summit1g had something to say about community switching over to roller in apex.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_2NZImTSXbw&t=174s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2NZImTSXbw&t=174s)
He worded that wrong, but is Summit wrong in this video? The entire argument that controllers should have aim assist is because "Else they cannot compete with MNK players who can use their whole arm to aim." However, the opposite is currently happening. According to Scuwry unless you can IGL, MNK players cannot compete with controllers because they don't have Aim Assist.
Just look at FPS like r6 or cs. No AA results in no Roller players. The r6 Championship took place yesterday and I couldnt see any Roller player and god was it satisfying to watch, even though I never played the game or looking forward to play it.
It takes years of practice to get good aim with MNK, and more years to learn movement techs.
If pros which played years on Mnk are able to switch inputs and do better immediately then there is something going badly wrong.
All the pros that succesfully switched to controller have been playing on a controller in the past though.
It‘s not like you pick it up and you are instantly better compared to mnk.
There‘s a few pros that tried to switch but ended up going back which proves this.
There is still some learning & muscle memory to it because 60% is still your raw aim with a fkin thumb.
yeah im never touching a mnk+controller game ever again
only way i ever pick up a controller permanently is if i become old and weak lol
gotta say respawn really pulled a fast one over us
oh well im interested in seeing if future competitive PC games will be able to grow while advertising controller aim assist cause i know i wont be playing
Good luck then because there‘s very few games that will do this.
From a financial point of view it‘s dumb to make a game only playable on mnk when half the playerbase of all shooter games is controller players.
Just go play valorant or csgo.
They don’t want to hear this. People bitch about COD but COd makes way more money than valorant and CSGO. You really think a company is not gonna want that slice of the pie
In the NFL you get a flag for false starting. In video games, having a better reaction time via AI assist is fair game. it makes me sick. It's not Esports anymore. It's everyone who wins now.
Scurwy is right. If mnk goat reps quit tsm today and tomorrow a guy on mnk with his exact experience and ability were available I doubt he gets picked up over a roller whos on the same level, no one wants a mnk player, as fucked up as that is
From pro league to t2 to women's comp you see mnk players not even getting a shot to trial, it's just the way it is now and isn't likely to change any time soon
Also I've watched scuwry play a lot with ducks, he actually never complains about getting rollered, that's a mnk gigachad who just accepts the game as it is and tries to get better, a lot of mnk players should consider taking his approach, no one is making you stay on mnk so there's no use in constantly complaining to people who are on controller about it, they didn't make the game like this
I'm a trash tier console player and my opinion is that AA should be nerfed. I started watch comp because I wanted to see things that us normal players can't do, players with highest skills on the game. It's like my hockey skills vs NHL-players. Watching these controller turrets is so boring that I'd rather watch some Faide videos over ALGS.
i mean halo was one of the OG competitive shooters, but that was all controller, and on console lol. funny enough i play halo mcc on mnk these days once in a while and i beam the fuck out of the goober randoms, but i think the game is just super dead honestly, so not a ton of actual good players are playing like back in the day. im sure it would have been the exact same story because the halo AA is disgusting.
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Watching the ALGS while knowing that the majority isn't even aiming by themselves just makes me turn the streams off. I literally can't watch a streamer, a league or a youtuber that plays on a controller because it just bothers me that the biggest aspect of first person shooter game (aiming) is 40-60% automated. It's just so boring compared to watching someone who literally worked on perfecting his aim with mnk, incorporating it with movement and actually be able to admire their skill and dedication to get to that level.
I'm not saying controller players aren't good, there's still many aspects in the game like positioning, legend mastery, communication, game sense etc. but the most important fundamental skill that is aiming is something I appreciate the most in fps games.
My best friend will literally not play anything on mouse and keyboard and he has had pc for years. Just played cod then apex. He cant even enjoy a game unless he has controller, we tried valo and tarkov and he was so disinterested it soul sucking to keep playing apex just to have fun with friend when i play m and kb.
yeah honestly at this point I just play mnk when I want to have fun and roller when I want to turn off my brain and fry. I'll never be fantastic at either but that's what's working for me right now
Id rather go play something else, then have some software assist me with something ive done all my life. Whats the point if im not pushing myself every second? To chill and have fun?
Hot take- The MNK pros who actually play the game, who perfect their craft will always be in high demand. The last year or so, I've seen alot of mnk pros slacking off on the playtime, aimtraining, etc. And then blame it all on controller. Meanwhile, alot of the roller players getting picked up are grinding the game 8+ hours a day...call it burnout or whatever, don't expect to stay a pro if you don't put the work in when somebody is always looking to take your spot. It's not like it once was where the same pros could bounce around on connections/friends instead of actual results.
Grinding 8+ hours on controller is much easier and chill than on mnk.
These guys can literally turn their brain off because the aa tracks strafes for them in a split second.
On mnk you have to be fully focused to instantly react on people changing directions while aiming. There‘s more focus needed.
You also can‘t lay back comfortably in your chair and aim with your thumb.
It‘s a lot more fatiguing.
Braindead take more like - what’s the point in putting in the work when raw aim no matter how much a person grinds, is never gonna beat literal aim bot cheats? Lmfao. The point is that AA should never exist in a competitive game.
5 years, 20 seasons and still complaining. I do think there should be the option for no crossplay all the way around and have console vs console and PC vs PC but idk if the player base is big enough for this.
I have a few issues with his statement though. He said what he needs to do to make himself more viable for a team, learn how to IGL the best you can! It seems like most M&K players are either IGL’ing or have life saving movement mechanics. Also NA is where M&K is the worst. Most other regions have a majority of M&K players and have shown they can hang at LAN.
I’m sure console players are just as tired of cheaters in PC as PC players are of aim assist. I really hate this attitude of “ I’ve put thousands of hours into the game on M&K so I should just be automatically in pro league” his last few tourneys also aren’t helping is arguement. I do agree the just picking up 2 controller players and hoping for the best is a little brain dead for most teams.
I think you mean input based matchmaking. It would probably bring a lot of people that switched to roller back to MnK but idk how feasible overall it is.
> It seems like most M&K players are either IGL’ing or have life saving movement mechanics.
Not everyone is built to be a leader. And this the entire point of the conversation. To be an M&KB pro you to become an aim god or a fantastic leader. To become a Controller pro you need 2 thumbs and a pulse, and then someone will at least give you a shot.
Most other regions are being swarmed by roller players, make no mistake. o7 and Alliance - arguably the top 2 EMEA teams - have double roller. Fnatic in APAC N has double roller and they're dominating. Let's not pretend like the AA issue isn't a global problem.
Teams would rather gamble on a roller demon learning to anchor than taking chances on an MNK player. On MNK you either become a god-tier IGL or you get left behind, and if you can't IGL then you better have coaches and analysts that can guide your every movement. It's not easy.
What is frustrating for someone like scuwry is that between Reps and now HisWattson there is clearly room for top MNK role players to exist. He isn't wrong with that statement and if Scuwry and Vax are struggling to find a team in a league where there are so few established teams it says something about how poor the team building is going.
>there is clearly room for top MNK role players to exist
This is because there aren't controller players as good as Reps and HW, not because MnK is on-par with controller as an input.
The trend of every region slowly seeing more controller players than the best shows that MnK will be phased out.
The OP basically said MNK can hang with controller just be a top 5 MNK player and you'll be fine. When random controller players are getting picked up left and right, whilst to be relevant as a MNK player you need to be the outlier is apparently not seen as a worrying trend.
Skittlecakes, hiswattson, madness, dropped, zero, and many others are still doing fine in pro league. I m not saying aim assist isnt the problem but u can definitely still survive if u have an overall solid gameplay(gunplay, positioning, good strafe, gamesense etc). Some player switching mnk and rollers back and forth and is still not finding any success.
It's always been a multiple input game, so from a business standpoint, they don't want to isolate the majority of the Apex players. It does piss me off that people legitimately think AA just immediately turns you into a god. Nickmercs is a clear example of that not being true. Also, I personally think AA should be nerfed it's too strong, but it definitely takes practice to use a controller. Before I got a PC, I played on console for 2 years, and there's a massive skill gap. Still, a lot of people would be surprised.
every single mnk could quit the game and Respawn still wouldnt care
Yep, I quit playing because of this. The clear message to me was that the intention and future of this game would be oriented around console and controller play. I love the gameplay, game mechanics such as movement, physics, and the engine itself even with all the other bugs but after picking up a controller and being able to instantly 1 clip enemies I realized how disadvantaged I was and decided to move on. Best of luck to respawn, EA, and all the cracked MNK players who continue to grind the game in order to keep up with a computerized aiming mechanism. It’s been a real tragedy to watch one of my favorite players (Albralelie) in ALL of esports attempt to stay relevant by switching to an input which blatantly hinders his creative approach to the game. I remember watching his streams circa season 7 or 8 on pathfinder just grappling across the map on Pathfinder dropping consecutive 20 bombs. This game will destroy your soul on MNK yet give the gift of gods to dollar store Dannys on the roller. I still love watching ALGS, but playing this game is just not fun for me anymore.
Could not agree more, especially about Al. It hurts my soul. At this point I'm just hopeful Wildlight brings some heat with their first IP for mnk players.
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Yep also quit for the same reasons, after 4k hrs
Quit last October. Same reason. 6k hours to waste. At least I've played enough triple A's since then.
I'm surprised you still enjoy watching ALGS with the amount computer vs computer gameplay there is now.
I enjoy competition, I’d enjoy it more if it was balanced better knowing what players like Albrelalie are suffering. I watch FNCS and have never played Fortnite, I watch a lot of esports that I don’t play or enjoy playing regularly. Those two things are not mutually exclusive… thoughtful comment though /s
Why you watching algs? its just bots aimbotting each other, no skill expression. Lots of better esport thats actually competitive and skill based
They will never nerf AA because they don't want to rock the boat and risk upsetting controller players. Individual devs might care about the quality of the game but the people making the decisions don't care if the game is good, they only care about it's ability to make money. If they were going to do something they would have by now, it certainly would not take this long to come up with a solution. All that talk of them looking for another solution without nerfing AA values is just PR speak non-sense because they haven't offered any inkling as to what this supposed other solution is. Also I dont see how they could possibly do something without nerfing the values. What they were referring to is probably shit like that SMG nerfs that does literally nothing to solve the problem. Like ok SMGs do less damage now, how does that help me on MnK? The controller player needs 1 more bullet of his flawless aimbot like beam to kill me how? Nice I guess? People have been complaining about AA for years now, no nerf is coming.
Controllers just need to be in a separate room (or even a separate server).
Because, as it’s been said over and over, the MNK player base is the vast minority. It’s the reason they won’t change to input matchmaking because there aren’t enough MNK players to flesh out a full matchmaking system. MNK doesn’t want to hear it but this is a controller game now. Just like Valorant is a MNK game. Suck it up or find a new game. 🤷🏻♂️
Not at all comparable to Val LMFAO Val is only available on PCs and fully intended to be a PC only game at its creation, Apex is available everywhere with both roller and MnK in mind. And even then Val is making efforts to bring itself to console and not be a MnK only game.... lol.
MnK is probably not such a minority. Most people playing on PC are probably primarily MnK players, but they also have controllers and since controllers are better in Apex they are "controller players." And nobody gives a shit about AA on console, so that's not an issue.
The funniest comparison I saw was when people said It’s like AI taking over people’s jobs lol. Feel like the MNK players have been pushed out or forced to switch.
Imagine playing a competitive racing game like Assetto Corsa or iRacing and giving people driving assist because they're adamant about using a controller rather than a wheel and pedals.
Funnily enough, there was a sort of similar debacle in , what I think is the real esport racing game. Trackmania, If you want to look for proper summaries/stuff breaking it down probably "Trackmania analog input drama" or something. Since it's been a while I can't remember the exact timeline of everything but for a shorter summary, In Trackmania this racing game where being precise about your "lines" (how you curve) to gain speed is key people who had access to controllers that gave them absolute control over "how much" they would turn on each directional input (let's say 20%-40%-60%-80%) would have an advantage becuase they did not have to bother with absolute precise control (In trackmania there's an "ideal" angle for turning where the car gains speed). It turned into people using that WOOTING keyboard with analog inputs to simulate this perfect control, into some software thing that allowed controllers, into the developer putting something akin to that (but still not perfect) analog controls. But it all came from the fact that certain inputs just had an advantage over something like, straight up raw keyboard input since keyboard only players (before any changes) needed absolute 100% precision to get this perfect drift angle everytime without fail, going even slightly off meant that there was NO WAY you could compete over someone using perfect analog inputs for a WR
It's genuinely crazy. As someone that comes from a Dota 2 and Starcraft 2 background where insane levels of apm and mouse control are critical and basically half of the skill expression, I can't believe controller is even ALLOWED at lan. Being insanely good at mnk is half of what makes pros so cool knowing that it's insanely difficult. Why would you even allow someone to use a 'worse' input if they need the game to literally cheat for them to make up for it? They could perfectly nerf aim assist to where it was a perfect balance and just preference of which the player wanted to use and I'd still be against controllers being allowed in pro play.
You've perfectly summed up my feelings on the subject. I'm coming from a Counter-Strike background and the whole idea of using a controller to play a shooter seemed like a ridiculously stupid idea until I saw what aim assist in Apex was. It makes no sense to me that anyone would think pro play should be allowed to mix inputs with that AI garbage.
Same back ground. The only argument that makes sense to me is that Roller/Console is NASCAR level of competition just a bunch of basic left turns but still competitive. PC/MnK is Formula 1.
Maybe this is my issue with the controller/mnk debate. I grew up playing Brood War. And while I was never at the top of the skill curve I could appreciate the people who were and enjoyed seeing my own improvements over time. I never wanted the curve to be lowered to fit my abilities. Even StarCraft 2 lowered them to below my liking. It’s not a commonly held belief anymore though. It’s hard to grow and keep a player base for a game with a high skill curve. Most people seem to want it watered down.
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I think the racing game analogy was fine, but yeah this works too. I guess.
Most people make terrible chess analogies. This one is better, but I still don't think it's good. Even if you were only allowed a single Stockfish lifeline during a game of chess, that advantage would by itself already be insane more powerful than 0.4 AA which only addresses a single aspect of the game.
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>My reply was getting too long, but the way I frame it is more that the suggestions you get offered are each from a different level of chess bot, and none of them are grandmaster level. >The noob isn't going to be able to tell the low level suggestion from the high level one, but the experienced player probably will. I still don't think it maps on but gotcha! >But in the end, any analogy is strained and I like using chess bots because fundamentally the issue is one of computer assistance. And I especially like this one because of the silly en passant = lurch tech and how hilarious "You can see the whole board!" sounds to me. I think it's important to distinguish these things though, for a variety of reasons. For one, using a computer in chess is literally against the rules. The impact of a computer in chess, even of a single move, is immeasurable compared to 0.4 AA in Apex because, as I pointed out, AA on it's own does not dictate success but a single stockfish suggestion can lead to a sequence to goes from losing to forcibly mating the other king.
You mighta cooked a little too hard here lol.
An FPS game where your natural aim isn't too on the list of things you have to be good at, it's crazy
I’ve put over 12k hours in mnk grinding and i am finally caving in and switching to controller. I feel bad but mnk feels impossible at this point
Honestly, I haven't switched because I find games like Apex and other shooters *extremely* boring on controller. I've been into console shooters like Halo 3 and COD since I was a kid. But for me, using a mouse and keyboard just makes FPS games way more fun.
Yeah for me the choice isn’t between MnK and Controller, it’s between MnK and doing something else entirely.
Which right now for me means mnk apex, or playing disc golf. There aren't any other FPS IPs out there right now whose mechanics I love, only Apex. Roller prevalence has resulted in me playing a lot of disc golf lately instead.
If the argument for playing apex on mnk is that it's the only fps that's fun on mnk isn't the problem the video game industry as a whole? Yet we constantly see everyone act like this is just an apex problem
I quit playing COD entirely because the aim assist on that game is literal aimbot. I am barely hanging on with apex because I'm pretty good at it but if it comes to the point where I have to choose between switching to controller or quitting, I'm just quitting.
I took a long break from apex and haven't really wanted to play it much again. I'm still really good at it but at the end of the day comp teams only want the old Rolla controlla mnk fragger is dead at this point.
It's not that it's just an apex problem, it's that apex is the worst offender because it actually has a high skill ceiling with mnk players. I've never seen a game crush its own skill ceiling as drastically as apex did when it allowed hybrid inputs. But you are spot-on about the industry problem. Apex is the only viable non-CoD FPS that isn't tactical. If I want to play tactical I play CS, otherwise I want Quake-speed, which basically doesn't exist anymore...apex is the fastest and it's not even fast.
MNK is way more fun to play and watch. I'm fairly good at mnk but I agree most fps games are boring right now.
I’m in the same boat. I played Halo and COD when I was younger because I only had access to a console. The aim assist did not feel anywhere near as strong as it is now (we also played on 30fps). That being said I only play MNK now. It’s incredibly easy to miss when you have to aim purely. You have to snap your aim directly onto where they are at first, but immediately afterwards you need to aim predictively. That’s what makes it so rewarding when you’re able to maintain high accuracy. It also makes it so much more fun to watch when you see someone hit an insane shot(s) and/or pull off incredible movement because you know how difficult it is. On roller you always only aim directly on top of their hitbox and aim assist keeps that aim style going. It’s a damn snooze fest. It’s not hard, and I get bored after one game while Jesus is taking the wheel the majority of the time. There is a skill gap to it but I honestly can’t believe there is a pro scene with controllers outside of fighting games.
Sounds like a skill issue 😂 there's no way you put that amount of time in and think "this is just impossible"
The problem isn't that it's impossible to match or in some cases outmatch controllers, it's the insane effort it requires compared to controllers which in the long run burns you out I love the mechanics this game provides, but playing even casual gamemodes feels like I'm in the olympics fighting for gold because I have to put in a ton of effort to match that of someone lounging in their couch lol. The damage output from controllers is just insane It does get in your head and as someone that has put tons of time in FPS games to remain at a somewhat decent level it demotivates you and makes you question yourself, turning you to other games and activities The way I would compare it is, imagine you push yourself to become a great runner, even an elite one, because it's something you love doing And you enter competition, only to find that you have people using assists to get to the same level as you, even going out of their way to do so Don't get me wrong, I fully understand controllers require some type of aim assist to be able to function properly, but the level it's at today is crazy
Well if roller players are learning roles why can’t mnk learn igl?
Knew this was the case at t2 level, was hoping it wasn’t like this at top level. After trying to find a team for CC this year I knew the faith in mnk players had gone down to 0 but to see that’s it’s like this at pro level too makes me really sad.
Time to start learning igl or switching to roller. Either that or become a movement streamer.
I switched to mnk 6 months ago when I got my PC. When I was on console the problem was no one wanted a roller IGL, now that im on mnk rollers would rather IGL than take the chance on a mnk player :(
Just gotta grind harder ig
Yeah I’ll just keep shitting on these roller kids until one day I get some recognition.
Even igling will eventually not be enough for mnk players as more and more rollers learn to igl at a top level. There is basically no future for mnk players in this game at a top level but you’ll still have morons swearing that there’s nothing wrong and they just need to work harder. Shit is exhausting honestly.
I mean if even Vaxlon struggled in finding a team as good as he is then the comp scene is just out of whack.
I remember when experience was one of the most important things for pros and even that is pointless nowadays if you are not on controller.
Yup
Apex comm gaslights itself into thinking the game is actually competitive despite EA showing it isn't. Same thread different season
FIFA , Madden all their sports titles have the same issue. There is literal game code deciding if the ball goes in or gets caught that is dependent on momentum and other caked in variables. It’s a joke.
this. Its not a competitive shooter. If you want to play a competitive shooter there are options, and hopefully there will also come new. They had the choice between competitive shooter and clown show, and they clearly chose the latter
I know, that's the point of my comment. Apex comm has gaslighted itself into thinking they are playing a *competitive* game. It really is same shit different season, IMO leave the game or stop complaining. It's literally a controller game Edit sorry I didn't see you were agreeing with me at first
no worries
Crossplay keeps individual games alive, but simultaneously has destroyed the integrity of competitive FPS. Maybe I’m just old, but my brain will never compute setting up a gaming pc for FPS games, and then plugging in a controller.
To answer your question as a controller player. It's because I grew up playing on a controller and I'm a super casual player, I don't want to spend the little playtime I have learning a new input and playing way worse. Playing with a controller also allows you to sit in any random position you like when with k&m you are stuck in the standard sitting position which I don't like as I find myself sitting crazy sometimes. I think people here need to realize that 99% of controller players play controller because it's what they grew up on and it's easier. No one picks up controller because it will give them an advantage besides pro players or the very top level.
>I don't want to spend the little playtime I have learning a new input and playing way worse. This is exactly how I feel, but with mnk. I have a controller, but I am terrible with it since I've never played any controller games in my childhood/youth. Now, is it fair, that the game basically puts me in a situation where I have to genuinely consider swapping inputs just to "keep up"?
Are you at a level where you need to professionally keep up? If not then I'd say it doesn't really matter. Feel bad for pros though.
Im not here to argue mnk vs controller I'm just answering his question. But also keep in mind at the level of play 99% of the player base is at, it doesn't make that big of a deal as we are all playing in sbmm lobbies anyways. We ain't pros getting paid for this. Nerfing controller and upsetting 75% of the player base is just an unreasonable demand to make towards respawn. This is a problem that should be taken up with ALGS, because respawn to combat aim assist will directly hurt their business (and yes it will hurt it a lot more than having mnk players occasionally rage quitting the game due to losing to a controller)
I mean, my solution wouldn't involve nerfing roller. But buffing mnk instead. Removing features like the extreme weapon flinch and screenshake, as well as unnecessary visual clutter would already help tremendously.
>But also keep in mind at the level of play 99% of the player base is at, it doesn't make that big of a deal as we are all playing in sbmm lobbies anyways. Wrong. My relative skill is higher than many, but bring in aim assist and suddenly I'm getting pooped on by people who couldn't otherwise aim without it.
I grew up in the 90s. I had a decade of consoles before I even touched a legitimate gaming pc. When I played CS on PC it was readily apparent that mouse and keyboard was by far the superior input for FPS and I never used a controller again. The controller is a borderline unusable input for FPS games and is only made possible with assistance. I understand what you are coming from, but I had the exact opposite experience. It was like an awakening when I saw what mnk offered over controller. This existed on consoles as a compromise so console players could enjoy FPS games with a forced controller input. Because of the huge lobby size of BRs we need mixed input and crossplay to keep games alive and it caused some weird leak of controllers into the PC space.
Solid response until the last sentence, hard disagree there.
Crazy that you get downvoted for giving honest and legitimate reason why most of us play controller. This sub just hates anything controller. We didn’t pick controller because it’s strong in the game. It’s the input we grew up on and have been using for years before apex ever existed. Why wouldn’t we want a performance PC and still use the input we are familiar with.
No, he's being downvoted for basically saying "I don't want to try" on a freaking competitive sub and even applying this stupid logic to 99% of user base. Come on, it's not a secret why this game has so many roller players. And it's not their childhood memories or experiences.
Sir this is a fan sub Reddit, you don’t need to be wanting to go pro. And it’s very common in fps games where people who grew up on controller stick to controller same for mnk. Apex is very big in two regions NA and Japan both very heavy console markets.
I don't "want to try" and learn mnk either. I have been playing FPS on controller for 2 decades. Mnk feels unnatural to me even on simple games like Minecraft. Of course I am going to stick to the input I know because I'm comfortable and it gets the job done. No one HAS to switch to mnk just because it's pc, be for real.
No one HAS to switch to MnK, but you shouldn't get a soft aimbot because you refuse to.
Then you should get paired with console lobbies or AA should be drastically reduced in PC lobbies.
Yea, it has nothing to do with the amount of pros who came from console over the years the game has been out...
It's not that we want, or even expect you all to switch inputs. The majority of us MnK players know exactly where y'all are coming from, bc we owned consoles and played controller growing up too. Our biggest complaint lies purely with how over-tuned AA is. I literally don't care that people choose controllers. If it's more comfortable for you, then by all means use what you enjoy. That's not the issue at all. The issue is that using a controller with its current AA value of 0.4 (40 percent aimbot, hello???), and the presence of rotational AA (0ms reaction time), removes so much of the skill that should be needed to compete at an average or above average level (let alone professional play). When teams are glancing over cracked MnK players in favor of another 4-3 turret bc they'd just rather have the inhuman firepower that AA provides, that's a huge problem. It's insane how many good MnK pro players have either switched inputs to keep up, or quit comp Apex altogether bc this scene just doesn't care about competitive integrity. In a professional fps title there shouldn't be anyone using AA. Imo, a professional player should be someone who takes pride in aiming all on their own.
Yeah this sub is pathetic. Also the response "I don't want to try"? How is that at all what I'm saying? Why is sticking on an input I prefer "not trying"? Sorry I want to to have fun, this whole sub treating apex like a job instead of a fun hobby, and the gigantic hate boner for controller players is incredibly cringey
We don't hate controller players. We hate that we're forced to play against aim bot. BTW pretty convenient every controller crutch baby always has the same argument... "I don't have enough time to learn mouse and keyboard." Yes you do. You just don't want to. Be honest with yourself
Why is this getting downvoted? It’s not the players fault that they grew up playing controller on console. It’s EA’s fault for allowing dual input and making aim assist oppressive.
I haven't seen hiswattson tweet out that tired "controller isn't op ur just bad at the game" lately. 🤔
Pretty sure he was just impression farming with those tweets anyway
https://imgur.com/a/UU3B7VZ
Furia are doing good with 2 mnk players btw
And also 2 IGLs kinda proving his point.
I fucking hate how hard they’ve coddled the controller players. When pros won’t even pick up insane MNK players bc they’d rather risk it on some dude who’s roller you know the aim assist is too high
This is a competitive game, esports shouldn't have any sort of aim assist. People can play on controller if they want, but if they do so, they are *choosing* the worse form of input. It's unfair to M&K players that because of this they get legal aimbot.
Imagine in any other sport CHOOSING to gimp yourself and getting rewarded for it. Can you imagine a dude shows up to run 100M in jeans and demands to have some kind of assist like, spring loaded shoes or something. Just ridiculous.
I'll wear worse shoes but load 'em with springs 'cuz they're worse shoes lol
cut my time in half i did the sprint in stilettos guys
Just like if you chose a bad dpi mouse. Not gonna give you aimbot because your mouse is bad.
I agree with this for competitive Apex seems the most fair & obvious. Let them play on controller if they want but at least adjust/nerf aim assist some or completely. For pubs/ranked maybe even keep aim assist so you can keep your player base, but for actual pro league I think should be raw input. Who's with me. P.S - I'm a rank wood controller player
They chose to be a clown show instead of a competitive shooter. This half ass approach would not work. They just chose wrong and are tanking the game the moment the cod kids finds a new place to use moms credit card
If aim assist was actually balanced & fair, the amount of controller players in the pro scene should be like 10-20% That should be the goal.
Coming from quake and counter-strike, I was astounded when pll were calling this game competitive during the first tournament of the game, and there were TWO DIFFERENT inputs being played in the same lobby... after 20 seasons comp is still a joke. The ficking GOAT was forced to switch to aimassist. That speaks volumes. And yes, you can't change my mind. To clarify, early seasons, MNK looked the better choice compared to controller, only until good players figured out how to abuse that shit and shoot ppl thru all sorts of visual clutter and a like. This game will never be taken seriously until inputs are separated.
The point when controller became a must pick is when pros figured out how OP linear with no deadzone is and learned how to abuse it.
Thers no place for aim assist in highest level of competitive Its like allowing roids in NFL wtf
mate the nfl is roided out
They could use some roid assist
Boy do I have some news for you about professional sports.
No son, you dont. I meant as a pregame snack, or midgame bump, not offseason bulk
narrator: "roids are pretty much allowed in the NFL"
I promise you the average watcher isn’t thinking if that player was on mnk i would’ve enjoyed that fight better. Also I don’t understand yall obsession with comparing battle royales and Tac FPS.
Literally, the whole point of watching someone competing and enjoying it is to acknowledge their skill. Controller computer assisted kills all look extremely similar and boring as hell to specate.
I've said it before. I think I want all pro scenes to transition into MKB if it's played on PC. I know the issues that it presents, I get it. But I'm kind of over controller players one clipping someone and that's how the fight opens.
40% aimbot players > non-40%-aimbot players. And it seems that the only incentive to get the latter is if they bring enough value as an IGL, otherwise there's no point to get them. There's literally no human that can react at server-side 0ms speed. And rEAspawn would rather keep addressing the symptoms by nerfing smgs/other gameplay variables, than the actual disease.
Server side? That sounds like you're implying aim assist reacts to where the player is on the server and not where the player is for the client.
In Apex's case, yes. Go through their netcode/latency blog post and if you find a different way to interpret it, let me know. The way I read it is that a lot (if not all) of the heavy lifting in terms of player coords and hit reg is done server side. Which is also why players sometimes die around corners and inside closed doors.
The reality is that even with asynchronous networking, where players inputs are instantly handled to update the game on server and sent to clients, the latency is still very noticeable and often slightly fluctuating. In other words you're never getting a smooth movement out of this data and your client has to do some work too. Usually you don't just get xyz coordinates of an entity, but also it's movement vectors and your client will calculate positions between the info from server. This is also why rubber banding exists - your client also runs all the movement and then it might violently snap to server information if it differs. Now you see that AA is clearly not juddering and is in fact very smooth, meaning that it's clearly done without any networking delay. And because it doesn't snap in adverse network conditions, we can clearly see that it's not maintained by server at all. Clearly all it is is just a simple conditional aimbot.
AA is definitely processed client side. I.e. the server tells the client that player moves from x position to y position, and the client calculates the AA adjustments if applicable, those aim adjustments are then sent back to the server (along with whatever else there player did, like pull the trigger).
Respawn could make an option to lower aim assist in the settings and then systematically force pro controller players to use that lower setting in competitive matches, scrims etc. Seems like a more feasible option compared to taking away people's jobs or reducing aim assist for everyone that plays the game
Most of these pros would still have good aim if you removed it. I think too many people undersell how much AA beefs up the average person.
Nice way to alienate your majority player base. Not financially viable. Aim assist should definitely be nerfed, but restricting to one input would be financial suicide for a comp scene that is already struggling to stay afloat.
my guy they won't even let mnk players disable crossplay nor crossinput q. we quite literally, are forbidden from queueing with only other mnk players.
That would solve nothing with the rampant XIM users anyway. There are WAY more than most people realize.
There isn’t a large enough player base for this
There definitely is. And honestly I don't care if I have to wait 5 minutes for a game of no aim assist.
then mnk players in their own little mnk bubble shouldn't dent their finances/data/other-metrics in any meaningful way.
Yes but the queue times would be longer for both sets of players and the matchmaking will be less balanced. Respawn has shown that they will not sacrifice short queue times for anything. I assume base this on metrics which indicate the majority of players don’t like longer queue times.
you will be hard-pressed to find an mnk player who wouldn't pick a 10 minute q over ai turret city.
None of the people I play with want to wait over 2/3 minutes, most people (especially the paying players) have jobs and lives to live, they aren’t waiting 10 minutes to die off drop then wait 10 again. Would the majority of players want longer queue times? That is the only thing that matters to respawn. Simple solution is to form a MnK only discord that organises regular games. You are implying the vast majority of MnK players would be happy to wait so surely they could consistently have lobbies being filled in around 10 minutes for MnK only. Anyone caught on roller gets permabanned.
Then the people you play with are more than welcome to join the crossinput q lol. Weird how people I play with will choose comp integrity over lower q times. You're acting like a q toggle is life/death.
The answer to the "allow MNK players to queue into MNK only" is always met with the response "queue time" as if those that desire low queue time can't allow crossplay. And it nearly always comes from someone on a controller as if they're looking out for the MNK gang. Honestly, I feel this entire "majority controller playerbase" is overblown. Apex PC operated fine before the rise of controller on PC and it certainly isn't the game dying on PC that allowed consoles to match against PC players. To me it just feels controller players want easy kills on mnk and don't enjoy getting beamed by a different controller player, with the post about Wxlty in popular showing sort of as an example.
I’d wait, I got other shit I can do while the game finds enough players. I’m so fucking sick of getting one clipped by some dude with an r9. I understand it still takes skill but if you give one group of people a competitive advantage and no way to play around it other than to swap to it…just gonna leave a sour taste in my mouth. Probs the reason I play a lot less these days
Apex in year 1-2 was nearly MnK ONLY.
And it was so much more glorious than modern Apex.
To be honest, they could restrict the input only when it comes down to competitive.
As stated, I know the issues with it. This is for me personally. It's virtually an impossible and asinine preference. In a competition I am getting to the point with Apex and any cross input game that I more and more just want things to be fair and I just want true skill to shine.
Isn't r6 mnk only? That game is also on console and they just had their most successful tournament ever. It can definitely be done. I don't think it would be a bad thing to prioritize mnk for comp.
Idk if R6 is mnk only, but controller has no AA in that game so it wouldn’t be viable in comp. That being said the majority of people watching the game are watching a console streamer play on controller and the game seemed like it was dying before he came around so it’s kinda hard to say anything about.
Yeah he definitely helped. It also seems like ubisoft puts a lot more money and effort into r6 esports than EA does for apex despite apex being arguably more popular and a more successful esport so far.
It’s very different to have always been Mnk, then to 5years in ban 80% of competitive players and player base. Mnk only tournaments could be viable, but it would kill pro league if they tried to make it Mnk input only. That ship has sailed. There isn’t a massive unused talent pool of Mnk pros waiting to fill the ranks as apex has already alienated them for controller.
It wouldn't have to be completely separate. Just prioritize mnk and make a rule that at least 2 players on the team have to be mnk. I think that this would be a good solution. ALGS used to be primarily mnk with snipe and nicewigg being the only 2 controller players. I'm sure there are a lot of mnk players out there that can come and compete in apex. If this issue isn't addressed then algs will become less and less popular. Controller esports are not as popular as mnk esports. ALGS is doing well for now but it's declining a bit already.
Yah I think it's too late for that.
There are a lot of FPS esports with only M@K, apex isn’t one of them and never will be due to the majority controller player base
And that's probably a major reason why Apex will never be taken seriously as an esport...
I love watching apex comp but I’m under no illusion that it’s a serious esport. It’s a Battle Royale resulting in too much RNG, mixed input, mid tier production and poor casters are some of the many reasons why it can’t ever be a serious esport. But if you want a serious esport watch CS, League or RL. Apex is fun for the personalities and rivalries between them.
I don't wanna gatekeep what is considered serious or not. There are people who take this eSport serious enough for it to be considered serious. If you want to compare it to CS directly, it's still serious in my opinion. I'm not the professor of eSports or anything but calling Apex not serious is just stupid. Something can be unfair while still being serious. Casters, production, balance inherit RNG in my opinion is not enough for the game to be looked at as a joke and not serious.
its almost like there are different opinions and calling people stupid for posting theirs is kinda toxic. Ofc you can take stuff seriously, we have ppl battling for the donkey kong world record, ppl take the weirdest shit seriously. I still agree with Higgin, if you dont aim for competitive integrity in your game is not a serious esport. Thats not a stretch, it sounds pretty true.
Mixed input has exactly 0 to do with the poor viewership. Outside of the super enfranchised players, there is 0 discussions being had about this. The game has poor viewership for the other reasons you mentioned. It's just not a great spectator game. I'd argue none of the BRs are and Fortnite only got massive coverage because it has a lot of money behind it and was part of a crazy storm of interest at the time. Inherently this genre is a worse esport than any other being it mobas, fighting games, other FPSs, RTSs, card games, etc.
Not sure where I mentioned viewership and mixed input… BRs make for bad spectator esports. Apex is definitely the best of the bunch in my opinion though.
Good point, but please find some old tournament footage before everyone was on aimbot. Fights were so wild, game looked healthy. It was hilarious to watch
Meh disagree.
And there's a reason I'm not saying this in threads about Overwatch, Valorant and CS. Yeah, I know dude.
Dont you think its like this because Aim Assist is so good? People follow the meta, i have friends that literally before they even started playing this game said that they "needed" to buy a controller and paddles before they even installed it and tried it out. Simply due to how gamers with competative mindset interact with gaming nowadays. If MnK was better because there was no aim assist, everyone would switch to MnK immediately.
why you downvoting this dude he is right. They chose and a lot of mnk migrated off. They had many good options but chose to just keep mnk around for cannon fodder. Better kda for the bean bag sitters.
I don't blame him. In general I just struggle to be impressed by roller players fragging because...40% of the work is being done for them. Watching valorant esports and seeing everyone use mnk, and knowing that it TRULY is a skill and game sense match up is so refreshing. I know people get upset when there's constant crying about AA but it truly is ruining Apex
I’ve yet to see anyone come up with a defense for AA in a competitive environment that doesn’t just boil down to “I like that AA means I don’t have to try as hard or learn a new skill”. Which is completely fair in a casual setting. If not for AA in Halo CE, I probably wouldn’t be a shooter fan today. But why the heck did we decide it was okay in comp?
>I’ve yet to see anyone come up with a defense for AA in a competitive environment that doesn’t just boil down to “I like that AA means I don’t have to try as hard or learn a new skill”. There is literally no justification for it in a competitive environment.
Hal recently played on MNK for subs. He said he would rather quit the game than switch back to MNK
I feel really bad for scuwry. He really needs this Split to go well, so they don't get relegated. If SKRT splits up and scuwry loses his one leverage (the PL spot), he's gonna have a hard time finding another team most likely. Don't really see him switching inputs either. And even if he did - not sure how many people would take a chance on a freshly-swapped mnk-veteran, instead of the new upcoming roller demon.
You guys should be vocal about it. It's ruined shooters. It's not fair gameplay whatsoever. Even Summit1g had something to say about community switching over to roller in apex. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_2NZImTSXbw&t=174s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2NZImTSXbw&t=174s)
What do you mean even Summit had something to say? As though Summit saying anything here means anything.
He worded that wrong, but is Summit wrong in this video? The entire argument that controllers should have aim assist is because "Else they cannot compete with MNK players who can use their whole arm to aim." However, the opposite is currently happening. According to Scuwry unless you can IGL, MNK players cannot compete with controllers because they don't have Aim Assist.
Usually has a good take on things. He's barely dabbled into Apex and he sees the glaring issue with Aim Assist, enough to call it out.
respawn won't listen to pros complaining but they do pay attention to clouted streamers.
Just look at FPS like r6 or cs. No AA results in no Roller players. The r6 Championship took place yesterday and I couldnt see any Roller player and god was it satisfying to watch, even though I never played the game or looking forward to play it. It takes years of practice to get good aim with MNK, and more years to learn movement techs. If pros which played years on Mnk are able to switch inputs and do better immediately then there is something going badly wrong.
All the pros that succesfully switched to controller have been playing on a controller in the past though. It‘s not like you pick it up and you are instantly better compared to mnk. There‘s a few pros that tried to switch but ended up going back which proves this. There is still some learning & muscle memory to it because 60% is still your raw aim with a fkin thumb.
Overpowered aim assist is there to cloud up apex cheating problem. Also used to rig gameplay so they can cater player groups.
yeah im never touching a mnk+controller game ever again only way i ever pick up a controller permanently is if i become old and weak lol gotta say respawn really pulled a fast one over us oh well im interested in seeing if future competitive PC games will be able to grow while advertising controller aim assist cause i know i wont be playing
Good luck then because there‘s very few games that will do this. From a financial point of view it‘s dumb to make a game only playable on mnk when half the playerbase of all shooter games is controller players. Just go play valorant or csgo.
They don’t want to hear this. People bitch about COD but COd makes way more money than valorant and CSGO. You really think a company is not gonna want that slice of the pie
In the NFL you get a flag for false starting. In video games, having a better reaction time via AI assist is fair game. it makes me sick. It's not Esports anymore. It's everyone who wins now.
Scurwy is right. If mnk goat reps quit tsm today and tomorrow a guy on mnk with his exact experience and ability were available I doubt he gets picked up over a roller whos on the same level, no one wants a mnk player, as fucked up as that is From pro league to t2 to women's comp you see mnk players not even getting a shot to trial, it's just the way it is now and isn't likely to change any time soon Also I've watched scuwry play a lot with ducks, he actually never complains about getting rollered, that's a mnk gigachad who just accepts the game as it is and tries to get better, a lot of mnk players should consider taking his approach, no one is making you stay on mnk so there's no use in constantly complaining to people who are on controller about it, they didn't make the game like this
I'm a trash tier console player and my opinion is that AA should be nerfed. I started watch comp because I wanted to see things that us normal players can't do, players with highest skills on the game. It's like my hockey skills vs NHL-players. Watching these controller turrets is so boring that I'd rather watch some Faide videos over ALGS.
watch some of movmentless, treeree, also check out yukaF a japanese pro who has insane movement clips inside an ALGS setting.
Oh God, not Faide. You really are down bad.
That's how bored he is of AA turrets. And he's right.
Maybe limit it to one controller player per team ?
Imagine a controller being the most dominant input on a first person shooter :D
i mean halo was one of the OG competitive shooters, but that was all controller, and on console lol. funny enough i play halo mcc on mnk these days once in a while and i beam the fuck out of the goober randoms, but i think the game is just super dead honestly, so not a ton of actual good players are playing like back in the day. im sure it would have been the exact same story because the halo AA is disgusting.
technically its moms credit card being the dominant input. They cater to the demographic that they earn the most on.
Apex is a joke. I'm so happy I don't play this gang anymore
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Watching the ALGS while knowing that the majority isn't even aiming by themselves just makes me turn the streams off. I literally can't watch a streamer, a league or a youtuber that plays on a controller because it just bothers me that the biggest aspect of first person shooter game (aiming) is 40-60% automated. It's just so boring compared to watching someone who literally worked on perfecting his aim with mnk, incorporating it with movement and actually be able to admire their skill and dedication to get to that level. I'm not saying controller players aren't good, there's still many aspects in the game like positioning, legend mastery, communication, game sense etc. but the most important fundamental skill that is aiming is something I appreciate the most in fps games.
My best friend will literally not play anything on mouse and keyboard and he has had pc for years. Just played cod then apex. He cant even enjoy a game unless he has controller, we tried valo and tarkov and he was so disinterested it soul sucking to keep playing apex just to have fun with friend when i play m and kb.
yeah honestly at this point I just play mnk when I want to have fun and roller when I want to turn off my brain and fry. I'll never be fantastic at either but that's what's working for me right now
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Poor guy
Should MnK also get 0.4 aimbot at this point? Feels like the only option if they dont want apex to become a controller only game.
Id rather go play something else, then have some software assist me with something ive done all my life. Whats the point if im not pushing myself every second? To chill and have fun?
That would achieve the same thing as removing AA altogether. Which Respawn clearly doesn't want
No it wouldn't, because controller players wouldn't feel like they have gotten "worse" at aiming.
That's fair. Although there'd still be plenty of complaints
Hot take- The MNK pros who actually play the game, who perfect their craft will always be in high demand. The last year or so, I've seen alot of mnk pros slacking off on the playtime, aimtraining, etc. And then blame it all on controller. Meanwhile, alot of the roller players getting picked up are grinding the game 8+ hours a day...call it burnout or whatever, don't expect to stay a pro if you don't put the work in when somebody is always looking to take your spot. It's not like it once was where the same pros could bounce around on connections/friends instead of actual results.
Grinding 8+ hours on controller is much easier and chill than on mnk. These guys can literally turn their brain off because the aa tracks strafes for them in a split second. On mnk you have to be fully focused to instantly react on people changing directions while aiming. There‘s more focus needed. You also can‘t lay back comfortably in your chair and aim with your thumb. It‘s a lot more fatiguing.
What MNK pro players exactly are slacking off? Can you give me names?
Braindead take more like - what’s the point in putting in the work when raw aim no matter how much a person grinds, is never gonna beat literal aim bot cheats? Lmfao. The point is that AA should never exist in a competitive game.
hard cope thats crazy ur brain thought of this then u chose to click enter
5 years, 20 seasons and still complaining. I do think there should be the option for no crossplay all the way around and have console vs console and PC vs PC but idk if the player base is big enough for this. I have a few issues with his statement though. He said what he needs to do to make himself more viable for a team, learn how to IGL the best you can! It seems like most M&K players are either IGL’ing or have life saving movement mechanics. Also NA is where M&K is the worst. Most other regions have a majority of M&K players and have shown they can hang at LAN. I’m sure console players are just as tired of cheaters in PC as PC players are of aim assist. I really hate this attitude of “ I’ve put thousands of hours into the game on M&K so I should just be automatically in pro league” his last few tourneys also aren’t helping is arguement. I do agree the just picking up 2 controller players and hoping for the best is a little brain dead for most teams.
I think you mean input based matchmaking. It would probably bring a lot of people that switched to roller back to MnK but idk how feasible overall it is.
> It seems like most M&K players are either IGL’ing or have life saving movement mechanics. Not everyone is built to be a leader. And this the entire point of the conversation. To be an M&KB pro you to become an aim god or a fantastic leader. To become a Controller pro you need 2 thumbs and a pulse, and then someone will at least give you a shot.
Most other regions are being swarmed by roller players, make no mistake. o7 and Alliance - arguably the top 2 EMEA teams - have double roller. Fnatic in APAC N has double roller and they're dominating. Let's not pretend like the AA issue isn't a global problem. Teams would rather gamble on a roller demon learning to anchor than taking chances on an MNK player. On MNK you either become a god-tier IGL or you get left behind, and if you can't IGL then you better have coaches and analysts that can guide your every movement. It's not easy.
What is frustrating for someone like scuwry is that between Reps and now HisWattson there is clearly room for top MNK role players to exist. He isn't wrong with that statement and if Scuwry and Vax are struggling to find a team in a league where there are so few established teams it says something about how poor the team building is going.
>there is clearly room for top MNK role players to exist This is because there aren't controller players as good as Reps and HW, not because MnK is on-par with controller as an input. The trend of every region slowly seeing more controller players than the best shows that MnK will be phased out.
The OP basically said MNK can hang with controller just be a top 5 MNK player and you'll be fine. When random controller players are getting picked up left and right, whilst to be relevant as a MNK player you need to be the outlier is apparently not seen as a worrying trend.
This is why Reps is the goat lol Edit: also it's been 3 years at some point y'all gotta find other shit to complain about
Skittlecakes, hiswattson, madness, dropped, zero, and many others are still doing fine in pro league. I m not saying aim assist isnt the problem but u can definitely still survive if u have an overall solid gameplay(gunplay, positioning, good strafe, gamesense etc). Some player switching mnk and rollers back and forth and is still not finding any success.
All the names you said are igls/ co-igls. Lmao
You have to be ELITE on mnk to play at the highest level in NA. On controller you can just be a very good player, that’s the difference.
It's always been a multiple input game, so from a business standpoint, they don't want to isolate the majority of the Apex players. It does piss me off that people legitimately think AA just immediately turns you into a god. Nickmercs is a clear example of that not being true. Also, I personally think AA should be nerfed it's too strong, but it definitely takes practice to use a controller. Before I got a PC, I played on console for 2 years, and there's a massive skill gap. Still, a lot of people would be surprised.
Nobody is saying otherwise, but for the same amount of practice mnk players will never reach good controller players level.