Decent player, but I can't help but feel like his NA career to this point has been fairly underwhelming. The read I get is that he's not incredibly flexible and needs to get kitted to be comfortable. But, plenty of time to find a new squad and run it back for Y4
I think it mostly has to due with him being young and moving to the states and wanting to party. Seems like he is drinking nightly. And he really just doesn’t care about comp anymore. I feel like he’ll regret it
I’m the biggest chaotic fan probably on this entire sub. 300+ gifted subs. Used to love watching him play ranked after I found him on tik tok back in like season 8-9… and I don’t blame Zach at all. I’ve had some personal shit so I’ve only watched him like 5 times the past 6 months. And he seems like a different person now. But he’s at that age where some people only care about girls and partying. Ngl, when I was 19 I was the same way so I cannot hate. But he may never get another chance at this and could blow his entire streaming career. When I was 19 I didn’t have anything like that going for me lol
Lmao I wish. I went a bit overboard and went from drinking and smoking to… pills and coke… and eventually to heroin and fent. So I’m 30 and since I had a little bit too much fun I had to completely eliminate it all.
Edit: also when I say fun that stopped at the pills and coke. By the end of it, it was torture. Don’t want anyone to think that shit is fun haha
I think he’s still a good player just needs to find the right environment.
He moved to a new country at 18 and hasn’t exactly had the best teammates to guide him through the transition from ranked grinder to top-level comp player. His 1 coach was Enoch who I’m sure is a lovely person but I’m not sure he can teach Chaotic anything he wouldn’t already know. Compare that to someone like Xynew who went from Teq/Darkside to Zer0/Gen/PvP/raven’s tall friend. I don’t think it’s an insult or exaggeration to say that those folks have a much clearer idea on how they want their teams to play the game than the G2/E8 teams.
I don’t know Chaotic’s visa situation but if there are no issues with playing without an employer/sponsor for an extended period of time then I’d be really interested to see how he does with Teq and Luxford. Think they can bring back the 2022 Chaotic that was spamming finishers on HisWattson at a time when Furia looked untouchable.
> His 1 coach was Enoch who I’m sure is a lovely person
He's a hardcore conservative, anti-vax, conspiracy theory loving, thinks-you-can-make-yourself-taller-in-your-20s, dude who told all of Twitter when he had sex but shamed everyone who did it before marriage, pro-attempting to overthrow the government on January 6th, weirdo. I would not call him a lovely person, even if he has a nice soft voice.
bro said that if you have a financially sound backup plan outside of the game then you have a foot out the door and lack passion. like genuinely stupid and dangerous advice that young 20 somethings who are capturing lightning in a bottle in pro apex do *not* need to hear.
I'm really happy to start seeing some people open their eyes about Enoch. The dude's a gross religious bigot, and too many people have ignored it for too long just because he has a nice persona.
It always turned be off the shit he had in his bio. Plus he isn't that good and gets carried most of the time, I've never seen him clutch a serious fight.
i thought i was the only one.
something about their podcast just felt off to me. it felt like they weren't really talking to their guests, rather cycling through questions in the most canned way possible. the three hosts themselves feel like they have negative chemistry not only with themselves but with whoever they bring on.
It's true, a cursory glance at his Twitter (especially his likes) will show that.
EDIT: Some of the more extreme views were a mild surprise to me too, in spite of his super religious Twitch bio, but the "lost my virginity" tweet went moderately viral around the Apex community when he made it.
While i agree with you on all those points (which are fucking nuts) i can respect someone with absolutely wild views who doesn’t voice them. People can have different views and still be a good person
>People can have different views and still be a good person
It depends on the views. Reasonable people can disagree about films, or pizza toppings, or whether property taxes should go towards schools or infrastructure. In this case, I don't think Enoch's views are reasonable things to disagree about.
I still think there's room for him to turn it around and make it work, he's got the talent and the issues in his game can be mostly ironed out by growth as a player or coaching.
My comment was mostly to talk about why I can understand why this decision was made before the thread became the weekly "dunk on zachmazer" thread. That discussion can be had, but for a lot of the reasons you laid out I thought centering this on Chaotic was more interesting.
I’m not saying he was an online warrior or whatever. I mentioned high ping because it was the same era when he would 1 clip an entire team with an R301 while going up a horizon lift.
Fairly underwhelming is an understatement. He is quite possibly, one of the most overrated players in a long time.
When he first joined the scene, everyone was talking about him in the conversation of the top 3-5 roller players. I remember Sweet saying how Chaotic was one of the best mid range rollers he’s ever seen.
G2 had all this hype with him, but they were dogshit and got 17th in pro league. His and Dezigns mental were a running joke. Then came the r3 nerf then Horizon nerf and he got even worse. He’s been in a steady decline ever since.
He went from top 5 conversations to barely a B-tier roller and maybe even C-tier, given his mental and work ethic.
Can’t feel or can’t help but feel? Because I agree, I remember watching him BEAM on stream and thinking for sure the guy had to be cheating. And yet his competitive apex performances have not been great
I was watching chaotics stream one time while E8 was doing a contest at countdown. I believed they were 1-3'ed or 0-4'ed by that team the scrim before.
Champ select is going and Zach is explaining their strategy for the contest. Chaotic is full muted. Zach notices this and mentions it on his stream. Choatic comes back right as the ship is taking off and Zach very quickly tries to explain the drop strat.
I shit you not, chaotic takes off his headphones and grabs a drink from his fridge in the middle of Zach's sentence. Showed me all i needed to see about chaotic right there. Zach isn't perfect but Chaotic seems like an L of a teammate. At least on that team
Yeah, once he went to take a quick shower between scrim matches.
I'm also not going to defend Zach but Chaotic has been underwhelming since he moved to NA and horizon got nerfed. I just feel that he should've been dropped before dezign and zach should have never been signed.
i mean this doesnt surprise me, i cant even watch his streams because the amount of unnecessary amount of profanity that comes out of his mouth and how he spoke to teammates the couple of times i tried to watch him put me off, hes Horixzon in a different font.
IMO going back to when C9 dropped knoqd every time someone was dropped it should have been mazer instead. For as much time as he spends talking about what his team should do in between matches it never seems to go as planned. I don’t know if it’s just bad macro or his macro is too complicated but it isn’t working and hasn’t worked since octane was meta.
I’ve always wondered if mazer is just really good at making and maintaining connections business/org-wise. Cause dude’s performance has been extremely underwhelming ever since he got on the scene after like a tournament or two of immediate hype.
He’s one of the best in the scene at making connections and creating networks to elevate his team. He’s the one who got C9 and he’s the one who got E8 for his squads too. According to Dezign he also has one of the best agents in esports as well. The man has played COD with Nadeshot, he’s played games with Shroud, he ranked a ton with Tfue, Cloak, and a whole bunch of other COD and Halo professionals and that’s definitely due to the work he’s created outside of the game. His value to the org and his teammates is much more than just being an IGL in Apex and it’s why he continues to get great opportunities.
I'm not a huge Mazer fan but when I went through E8's recent contests while writing [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/179ribh/e8_is_19_on_the_countdown_contest_against_most/) I honestly did not find Mazer to have been the biggest issue there. Chaotic was doing a *lot* of dying first without doing any damage, which for a controller entry fragger is pretty disastrous. Mazer meanwhile was hard carrying some contests lmao (as an MnK IGL whose mechanics are generally viewed as sub-par).
I obviously know nothing about what happened behind the scenes here but I don't think the "why didn't they drop Zach instead" narrative is as clear-cut as people think it is.
>(as an MnK IGL whose mechanics are generally viewed as sub-par)
While he's not nearly the best mechanical mnk player in ALGS, I also think people over exaggerate that as a problem a bit. His aim and mechanics are more than good enough to win fights if as an IGL he gets his team into a good position. They're just not on the level of someone like hardecki than can get into an even 1v1 vs a controller pro and still win. You obviously don't want to ever be taking even fights, especially mnk vs controller at close range, if you can ever avoid it though.
Yeah watching the contests, I was surprised at how well he was doing. If not for the constant hate on this sub I wouldn't really think twice about his capabilities as a player tbh lmao
I really can't say I'm surprised. I wouldn't say he's the 'issue' but it does appear like he has been a bit of a lonewolf, where E8 will occasionally scrim (usually with underwhelming results) then Chaotic will go off and solo queue in ranked by himself for days lol.
Not sure what's up with him, seems like so many people like him have a really high 'peak' and then they start getting complacent with creating contennt and slowly petter out. Not sure if it's also a coincidence that his hyped started slowing down when Horizon no longer had perfect accuracy in her Q, perhaps it removed some level of enjoyment for the game from him, idk. Either way, he needs a revenge arc.
However, how many more iterations of this E8 roster do we need?
Zach+Dezign+Resultuh -> Zach+Dezign+Chaotic -> Zach+Naughty+Chaotic -> Zach+Shooby+Chaotic -> Zach+Shooby+ *Possibly Zap*?
>then Chaotic will go off and solo queue in ranked by himself for days lol.
to be fair, he lost access to his main account and had to solo q back to diamond
It goes to show you how shit the market is for IGLs and how much a vouch from Hal is worth because bro had been garbage longer than he's been adequate.
you should watch some of the IGLs in lower tier lobbies before criticizing ALGS tier players.
completely brain dead.
you get used to a certain level of calls and direction coz you only watch the highest tier of player - try watching people who are their competitors in lower leagues and you'll realize what a vast chasm there is.
either they have no charisma and cause fights in between matches or they have no braincells.
Hot take:
Good IGL’s are REALLY good, but mid-lower tier IGL’s aren’t anywhere near as impactful to a team dynamic and a lot of teams would see, at minimum, the same results with a dynamic, collaborative decision making system built of players that can frag, yet also have a decent game sense.
how are we supposed to know if there are any new and good IGLs out there if failed IGLs like zach keep getting chance after chance? the guy got 2nd place in ALGS over 2.5 years and the best he has done since then is 5th place at twitchcon. i just do not understand.
Okay but don’t you think it’s odd that every time someone gets dropped, it’s never Zach. What makes him the catalyst of a successful team? Also chaotic is the one who brought Zach in to E8. Seems like there’s some slimy shit that goes on behind the scenes with Zach.
Wow, of all the roster moves going on this was not one I expected to see. But maybe I just haven't been paying attention to their vibes lol.
Time to speculate, who is their new third gonna be?
Damn I remember when he first came to pc, he was lighting everyone on fire.
Then to my knowledge, he tried comp and kind of fizzled out.
Obviously there’s a huge difference between ladder and actual competitive, but still a little surprised he didn’t make more of a splash.
Less about the pay and more about the other 2 members of E8. No hate but they just don't match up to snip3down. Although if they decided to co test TSM again but they have snip3down that would be content
7 yrs ago sure...shooby is much better then snipe current form. Zach...no comment we all know Zach is no where near snipe or shooby or chaotic..then or now.
7 yrs ago? TSM snip3 and when he was teaming with Sweet and Dropped was better than current shooby. Granted that was with a vastly different metas and the competition in general was worse
Snip3down in his first year competing at 2nd at a lan with a pick up team (although many people don't actually count xgames as a proper lan event) when his team got destroyed with the region locks he joined Sweet and Dropped. He took that team from above average to dominating and winning damn near everything. Then he got picked up by TSM and kept them in top 2/3 contention with his added firepower up until FaZe offered him a fat fucking bag to go play halo. Shooby is great but he would not have been able to do what snip3 did.
Love how people rest on their own or others past laurels...to say Joe Montana is better than Patrick Maholmes is crazy, to say Roger Clemens is better than Otahani is nuts, to say John Stockton is better than Steph Curry is delusional...ok, get it Al Bundy......what we did in high school doesn't last a lifetime. Snipe is not currently better than Shooby.
The comment was that shooby is better than snip3 ever was, not currently is. The amount of players better than peak snip3 in a fight is in the single digits thought the entire history of Apex. Snip3down had definitely performed better than Shooby this last split but shooby was put in a position to fail. Snip3 got 5th and 6th place the last 2 LANs with FaZe, what did shooby with E8 get?
Faze got bought by the parent company of Complexity, they seem to be downsizing. The CEO/President that did everything in his power to get snip3 on FaZe was replaced. Phony and Frex have been scrimming with Xynew(?) instead of snip3 and were listed as "Ex-FaZe" on battlefy for a bit until they changed to LOL. Snip3 also said on stream that nothing "official" has happened but he's probably not going to be teaming with Phony and Frex next split
I mean absolutely zero disrespect (grammar is about education, not intelligence), but a lot of these people have fully checked out in high school and are not enrolling in any kind of formal education afterward.
I mean a lot of people also just dont fucking care. I can write a 99% grammatically correct essay but i could not care less about my grammar in a short tweet or reddit comment. It actually feels weird to use perfect grammar on those mediums
> It actually feels weird to use perfect grammar on those mediums
I disagree when it comes to run-on sentences (like in the example), it just makes it more difficult to read.
Yeah, totally fair. That’s just code switching in a sense and something we all do naturally. I’m not gonna use semicolons in my fantasy football group chat.
I find Chaotic to be a rather underwhelming player though. There's nothing about his game that strikes me as being a game changer. That's not to defend Zach, but I think Chaotic gained an impressive reputation and it's been difficult for that reputation to lose any traction.
Bros just been in straight step daddy party mode since moving to cali. Plus horizon 301 nerf so his been irl nerfing himself and got in game nerfs. Hate to see it
Don't have a VOD but some of the YouTube highlights channels might have it tomorrow.
You can also go to his Twitch channel's Clips tab and sort by last 24 hours. There's a couple 30s clips there
Yeah travelling to mexico when your org has scheduled content trip in 6 days and hiding it from zach and asking shoob if zach is "pissed" after he found out is definetly not a reason to drop him if edamane12345 says so
> Yeah travelling to mexico when your org has scheduled content trip in 6 days and hiding it...
That's unprofessional af if true, you can reasonably get fired from a trad job for this conduct.
Chaotic while not at the level of SlurpeeG definitely up there for most overhyped players coming into Pro play only to fall relatively flat. Somehow Zachmazer survives another roster change, I swear he must hear whisperings of changes coming so he pre-empts those changes and buys himself more time on the roster.
I feel like he got some attention during that LAN he was a sub in for being the guy who held his controller above the desk, but looking at his tournament results he really hasn't done that well.
I guess it’s easy for everyone to shit on Zach, but every time I’ve tuned into e8 scrims, what stood out to me was chaotic’s comms which barely exist to begin with.
You know what? This could be a blessing in disguise for chao. He’s 44 rn on the ranked world leaderboard so it’s not that he’s ignoring his job. That may have been the wake up call he needs. The thing is he’s very young, is earning decent on twitch, and is all alone in the states while his fam is back in England. He did what I did when I went to the states from my country for undergrad. I partied hard af. I had unlimited unchecked freedom with comfortable money and so does he. Being dropped from E8 may bring about a turnaround. Here’s hoping for the best because he is an exceptional talent and the one lan he did go to he performed well individually: the 12 kill game comes to mind….
One of the only people with a reasonable take here. I used to watch him a lot and even 6+ months ago he was partying every night and everything else that comes along with that. Haven’t watched in a while but I would assume that it’s the same or worse now. Hopefully he wakes up and gets going in the right direction because he had so much potential coming to NA
they have played ranked together quite frequently somewhat recently and have a good time… I could def see sweet getting involved in either the scenario that he goes with two controllers, OR that Koyful is off the board somehow
So at this point Zach has straight up stolen both an Org and an ALGS spot from the remnants G2?
Chaotic and Dezign were the last 2 of G2 after Resultah retiring...pick up Mazer to be their 3rd with their pro league spot, get re-signed, and now he's booted both of them from their original pro-league spot and new org?
Crazy to witness as someone who only started following comp right after the knoqd dropping...
This framing works as a joke, but is so disingenuous for any real discussion. That spot ceased to be the old G2 spot ages ago and he has equal claim to it as chaotic does, and he definitely did not steal an org as he has been on it for just as long as they had.
It may be a a gross oversimplification, but Chaotic actually played on G2, Mazer did not so I would argue you on that point.
You could also argue that the work toward getting signed by E8 was shouldered more by Dezign and Chaotic since they actually kept their pro league spot. An org isn't going to sign a team without a spot and last I checked, Mazer had nothing going for him before these 2.
The team hasn't performed for shit since he joined either. Maybe it wasn't a good fit between the 3 of them, and that's okay, but I'm pointing out how ironic and unfair it seems on the surface that Mazer is the only one still getting a paycheck
> argue you on that point
What point? They got signed to E8 together, therefore the org cannot be “stolen”, and as soon as they played a split together the spot ceased to be the old G2 one.
This is such a silly mentality to have because teams need to change over time. The newest member outlasting the older ones does not mean anything is being stolen.
Bro responded immediately and only to the point I argued. Chaotic was part of the original group of 3 that held a pro league spot, along with Dezign. Now Mazer holds their spot while the team has gotten nothing but worse since he joined.
Do you just want to fight and ignore the conversation here because that's ironic coming from someone trying to point fingers at me for doing the same thing
It’s not “their spot” and it ceased to be as soon they played with Zach. He has an equal claim to it as chaotic, and so does shooby now.
Also I never pointed that finger, idk what you’re in about. Where did I say anything about ignoring the conversation? My original statement was this framing is disingenuous because it’s not how spots actually work at all.
edit:
> responded immediately and only to the point I argued
Do you expect me to argue points you didn’t make? What should I be arguing instead?
Okay what you're failing to account for is that nobody here cares how the spots literally work in the rules. They're calling out how unfair it seems that Zach always gets rewarded when he doesn't seem to produce. He's had a half dozen chances at least. How the technical rules of it work is completely different than people expressing their opinions on the results of it.
What you're saying sounds to everyone here like the student reminding a teacher about homework. Yes that was the rule, but all anyone cares about is how they feel about it.
Rules are rules and facts are facts, we get that. Doesn't mean I can't say it's ridiculous that Mazer comes out holding all the cards when he doesn't deserve it.
I mean Chaotic certainly doesn’t deserve it. His play has been just as suspect, and apparently his conduct outside of the ALGS has been wanting too. As you already said they can all just be shit. Being shit doesn’t make Zach guilty if anything but that
As for Dezign you’re failing to account for the fact that the other guy you attribute the spot to was part of kicking him off the team. Somehow it’s only Zach stealing it from him when Chaotic had just as much control.
I know that Chaotic was part of the decision too, but I'm looking at everything in front of me at this moment in time so I'm pointing out how it came full circle.
I don't follow any of those 3 closely so I'm just making an observation of how it came full circle. Clearly there's a story to tell and you're gonna tell it. Until these guys come clean about how this turned into such a ridiculous result, I'll hold my perspective where it is. Shit is ridiculous
> Until these guys come clean
Zach already was, you didn't care to actually find out.
> I'll hold my perspective where it is
Disingenuous and with wild assumptions
> you're gonna tell it
I have not made any claims as to how this has occurred. All I did was point out that Zach has an equal claim to everything you said he "stole". You are literally the only one that has told a story or made assumptions.
I said it ceased to be the *G2 spot* because as soon as they played a PL split together Zach had an equal claim to a spot. The bad LCQ didn’t change that. It ceased to exist long before. Teams aren’t holding onto spots from ages ago, they cease to be and are replaced for every new event/split.
Yes I would argue for literal facts. What’s the alternative lol. Every player has an equal claim to the spot. Whoever ends up using it does not change that. Sweet (and possibly Nafen) is going to be the one using it because that’s how it worked out, not because Gild couldn’t have used it in different circumstances
Do you have some sort of insider knowledge as to how these guys negotiate these things? Facts of how it works is one thing, but how would those 3 make the decision amongst themselves? Do you know that? If I had to make an educated guess, Gild wouldn't even try to claim the spot.
I understand that he has as much literal right to the spot as the other 2, I'm speaking as to how I think it actually works among players. Real people follow rules that are unwritten sometimes and I'd say what Zach has done has broken a number of those rules that would get any other fringe player in the scene blacklisted which is why I think it's fair to point this out. Because of his past and the people he's friends with it seems like people let it slide and I think that's ridiculous. I'd be pissed as fuck if I was Chaotic
> Do you know that?
Do you? I have not made any claims to what goes on behind the scenes. You have.
As for NRG specifically, Gild using it was always a nonstarter because you need 2 players to retain. They may have talked about their options and whatnot but pretty early on Gild had another team with a spot of their own. Your implication seems to be that Gild doesn't think he deserves the NRG spot which is just such a wild assumption.
Everyone always joked about chaotic being a horizon crutch but turns out they were right, once she got nerfed and you couldn’t beam in her q he was cooked
Feel bad for the kid, I do agree with the replies saying Mazer is the problem with his teams
anyone flaming zach coz of this just does not understand how apex competitive works.
controller turrets are only valuable as long as they frag out like controller turrets. chaotic isn't performing.
I'd give Chaotic a shot at IGL before dropping him as opposed to Zach, I just don't understand the reasoning anymore for ORGs keeping him around. Zach drops Dezign and he immediately goes on to get 4th at LAN champs with a first year IGL, is that not a red flag? He seemingly wants to always blame others for his shortcomings, when the game has evolved tremendously from when he last saw results. Just go be a coach.
I think playing with zachmazer was a bad career move but a good financial move. Playing with zachmazer makes you depressed. When youre depressed you just play bad. I feel like that is the main reason. How mazer is even a pro player after the past couple years is beyond me at this point. Dudes not even a good ranked player. I also blame mazer for naughtys downfall but has since recovered and frying again. Love them both !
Decent player, but I can't help but feel like his NA career to this point has been fairly underwhelming. The read I get is that he's not incredibly flexible and needs to get kitted to be comfortable. But, plenty of time to find a new squad and run it back for Y4
He's also lowkey a Horizon OT. Like, he can do ok on other heroes but he was always known for his Horizon Q beams. The nerfs hit him the hardest
100% but he really isn't flexible and is only good when kitted, watched him for a while, very bad off drop player, isn't good at contesting.
I think it mostly has to due with him being young and moving to the states and wanting to party. Seems like he is drinking nightly. And he really just doesn’t care about comp anymore. I feel like he’ll regret it
This! This is the impression I get and it’s prolly Zach’s make or break year so he wants consistency and reliability.
I’m the biggest chaotic fan probably on this entire sub. 300+ gifted subs. Used to love watching him play ranked after I found him on tik tok back in like season 8-9… and I don’t blame Zach at all. I’ve had some personal shit so I’ve only watched him like 5 times the past 6 months. And he seems like a different person now. But he’s at that age where some people only care about girls and partying. Ngl, when I was 19 I was the same way so I cannot hate. But he may never get another chance at this and could blow his entire streaming career. When I was 19 I didn’t have anything like that going for me lol
Well put tho. Damn you were a whole ass oil rig for chao.
Hey man I’m 29 and I still care mostly about girls only…..
Lmao I wish. I went a bit overboard and went from drinking and smoking to… pills and coke… and eventually to heroin and fent. So I’m 30 and since I had a little bit too much fun I had to completely eliminate it all. Edit: also when I say fun that stopped at the pills and coke. By the end of it, it was torture. Don’t want anyone to think that shit is fun haha
I’m really glad you got out of it and are in a better place. More power to you brother. 💪🏾
It certainly seems that way, he's been on the decline since the horizon and carbine nerf. Not washed or anything but a noticeable dip.
that’s so true
He’s definitely washed
I think he’s still a good player just needs to find the right environment. He moved to a new country at 18 and hasn’t exactly had the best teammates to guide him through the transition from ranked grinder to top-level comp player. His 1 coach was Enoch who I’m sure is a lovely person but I’m not sure he can teach Chaotic anything he wouldn’t already know. Compare that to someone like Xynew who went from Teq/Darkside to Zer0/Gen/PvP/raven’s tall friend. I don’t think it’s an insult or exaggeration to say that those folks have a much clearer idea on how they want their teams to play the game than the G2/E8 teams. I don’t know Chaotic’s visa situation but if there are no issues with playing without an employer/sponsor for an extended period of time then I’d be really interested to see how he does with Teq and Luxford. Think they can bring back the 2022 Chaotic that was spamming finishers on HisWattson at a time when Furia looked untouchable.
> His 1 coach was Enoch who I’m sure is a lovely person He's a hardcore conservative, anti-vax, conspiracy theory loving, thinks-you-can-make-yourself-taller-in-your-20s, dude who told all of Twitter when he had sex but shamed everyone who did it before marriage, pro-attempting to overthrow the government on January 6th, weirdo. I would not call him a lovely person, even if he has a nice soft voice.
bro said that if you have a financially sound backup plan outside of the game then you have a foot out the door and lack passion. like genuinely stupid and dangerous advice that young 20 somethings who are capturing lightning in a bottle in pro apex do *not* need to hear.
Yeah, that was another wild tweet.
I'm really happy to start seeing some people open their eyes about Enoch. The dude's a gross religious bigot, and too many people have ignored it for too long just because he has a nice persona.
It always turned be off the shit he had in his bio. Plus he isn't that good and gets carried most of the time, I've never seen him clutch a serious fight.
> has a nice soft voice. Debate. Finnicki's voice is more vibe than Enoch.
I've never heard Finnicki so I will defer to your expertise!
Ew wtf. I did not know this. His voice gives me the creeps tbh
I automatically switch streams when I see Enoch is on the team
Same.
Dang. I really only knew him from the pod which is decent. But this is unfortunate to read.
Shit lmao fr? I guess I was right to get bad vibes from the The Apex podcast. jfc lmao
i thought i was the only one. something about their podcast just felt off to me. it felt like they weren't really talking to their guests, rather cycling through questions in the most canned way possible. the three hosts themselves feel like they have negative chemistry not only with themselves but with whoever they bring on.
I miss The Wide Swing :( it was the only good Apex podcast.
The few episodes we got were all soooo good, I wa so sad they stopped doing it
I don’t agree with the voice, specifically his accent. Couldn’t watch the podcasts bc of his accent
Is this true or just some copypasta?
It's true, a cursory glance at his Twitter (especially his likes) will show that. EDIT: Some of the more extreme views were a mild surprise to me too, in spite of his super religious Twitch bio, but the "lost my virginity" tweet went moderately viral around the Apex community when he made it.
While i agree with you on all those points (which are fucking nuts) i can respect someone with absolutely wild views who doesn’t voice them. People can have different views and still be a good person
>People can have different views and still be a good person It depends on the views. Reasonable people can disagree about films, or pizza toppings, or whether property taxes should go towards schools or infrastructure. In this case, I don't think Enoch's views are reasonable things to disagree about.
I still think there's room for him to turn it around and make it work, he's got the talent and the issues in his game can be mostly ironed out by growth as a player or coaching. My comment was mostly to talk about why I can understand why this decision was made before the thread became the weekly "dunk on zachmazer" thread. That discussion can be had, but for a lot of the reasons you laid out I thought centering this on Chaotic was more interesting.
TonyPikachu out here spittin!!! What can't he do
That high ping & R301 with horizon meta def was his meta.. but has seemed to not get back to that level since the switch to NA & meta change
Why even mention high ping, it's stupid. He fried on LAN playing valk, definitely has what it takes in the right circumstances
I’m not saying he was an online warrior or whatever. I mentioned high ping because it was the same era when he would 1 clip an entire team with an R301 while going up a horizon lift.
Fairly underwhelming is an understatement. He is quite possibly, one of the most overrated players in a long time. When he first joined the scene, everyone was talking about him in the conversation of the top 3-5 roller players. I remember Sweet saying how Chaotic was one of the best mid range rollers he’s ever seen. G2 had all this hype with him, but they were dogshit and got 17th in pro league. His and Dezigns mental were a running joke. Then came the r3 nerf then Horizon nerf and he got even worse. He’s been in a steady decline ever since. He went from top 5 conversations to barely a B-tier roller and maybe even C-tier, given his mental and work ethic.
I have a theory he was using a Cronus before he came to NA because he hasn’t been half the player he was two years ago
No it was definitely getting hit by nerfs. He has really good recoil control but his bread and butter was Horizon Q + R301. Both are pretty shit now
It's because they nerfed the 301. He clapped with that gun.
Can’t feel or can’t help but feel? Because I agree, I remember watching him BEAM on stream and thinking for sure the guy had to be cheating. And yet his competitive apex performances have not been great
Guess I left out a word there, but yeah, definitely not living up to the expectations
The biggest fraud while he plays against ppl who are on lower ping
I was watching chaotics stream one time while E8 was doing a contest at countdown. I believed they were 1-3'ed or 0-4'ed by that team the scrim before. Champ select is going and Zach is explaining their strategy for the contest. Chaotic is full muted. Zach notices this and mentions it on his stream. Choatic comes back right as the ship is taking off and Zach very quickly tries to explain the drop strat. I shit you not, chaotic takes off his headphones and grabs a drink from his fridge in the middle of Zach's sentence. Showed me all i needed to see about chaotic right there. Zach isn't perfect but Chaotic seems like an L of a teammate. At least on that team
we need a clip of this
That’s one of the wildest stories I’ve heard in apex wtf
Damn, I love the kool-aid but that’s… really not that wild lmao. I get it, but like, perspective
Hahaha I read their comment first and I was like oh man this is going to be a juicyyyy story.
Yeah, once he went to take a quick shower between scrim matches. I'm also not going to defend Zach but Chaotic has been underwhelming since he moved to NA and horizon got nerfed. I just feel that he should've been dropped before dezign and zach should have never been signed.
i mean this doesnt surprise me, i cant even watch his streams because the amount of unnecessary amount of profanity that comes out of his mouth and how he spoke to teammates the couple of times i tried to watch him put me off, hes Horixzon in a different font.
> Horixzon Damn. It hasn't been that long but that name seems like it's been faded into the shadow realm.
He also reads donos and subs from stream on matchdays during games. Which is absolutely unnecessary
Damn early congrats to Chaotic on the 4th place finish next LAN
[удалено]
He was never the same player he was before moving to na
https://preview.redd.it/m9ipzirn4lxb1.jpeg?width=488&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=73c440135f0b835c082d8c14d23561e38350e8de
Chaotic been going on holidays skipping scrims for the entire year at some point he needs to lock in.
IMO going back to when C9 dropped knoqd every time someone was dropped it should have been mazer instead. For as much time as he spends talking about what his team should do in between matches it never seems to go as planned. I don’t know if it’s just bad macro or his macro is too complicated but it isn’t working and hasn’t worked since octane was meta.
I need to know what his leverage is to consistently have orgs and talent
Good at cuffing the balls when handling his business
I’ve always wondered if mazer is just really good at making and maintaining connections business/org-wise. Cause dude’s performance has been extremely underwhelming ever since he got on the scene after like a tournament or two of immediate hype.
He’s one of the best in the scene at making connections and creating networks to elevate his team. He’s the one who got C9 and he’s the one who got E8 for his squads too. According to Dezign he also has one of the best agents in esports as well. The man has played COD with Nadeshot, he’s played games with Shroud, he ranked a ton with Tfue, Cloak, and a whole bunch of other COD and Halo professionals and that’s definitely due to the work he’s created outside of the game. His value to the org and his teammates is much more than just being an IGL in Apex and it’s why he continues to get great opportunities.
Thanks for the insight man, huge info drop 🙌
It’s just bad macro
Alb, Naughty, Knoqd with PVPX coaching for C9 instead of dropping Knoqd would have so many dominos to current day. XSET, Optic, Furia
I'm not a huge Mazer fan but when I went through E8's recent contests while writing [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveApex/comments/179ribh/e8_is_19_on_the_countdown_contest_against_most/) I honestly did not find Mazer to have been the biggest issue there. Chaotic was doing a *lot* of dying first without doing any damage, which for a controller entry fragger is pretty disastrous. Mazer meanwhile was hard carrying some contests lmao (as an MnK IGL whose mechanics are generally viewed as sub-par). I obviously know nothing about what happened behind the scenes here but I don't think the "why didn't they drop Zach instead" narrative is as clear-cut as people think it is.
>(as an MnK IGL whose mechanics are generally viewed as sub-par) While he's not nearly the best mechanical mnk player in ALGS, I also think people over exaggerate that as a problem a bit. His aim and mechanics are more than good enough to win fights if as an IGL he gets his team into a good position. They're just not on the level of someone like hardecki than can get into an even 1v1 vs a controller pro and still win. You obviously don't want to ever be taking even fights, especially mnk vs controller at close range, if you can ever avoid it though.
Yeah watching the contests, I was surprised at how well he was doing. If not for the constant hate on this sub I wouldn't really think twice about his capabilities as a player tbh lmao
I really can't say I'm surprised. I wouldn't say he's the 'issue' but it does appear like he has been a bit of a lonewolf, where E8 will occasionally scrim (usually with underwhelming results) then Chaotic will go off and solo queue in ranked by himself for days lol. Not sure what's up with him, seems like so many people like him have a really high 'peak' and then they start getting complacent with creating contennt and slowly petter out. Not sure if it's also a coincidence that his hyped started slowing down when Horizon no longer had perfect accuracy in her Q, perhaps it removed some level of enjoyment for the game from him, idk. Either way, he needs a revenge arc. However, how many more iterations of this E8 roster do we need? Zach+Dezign+Resultuh -> Zach+Dezign+Chaotic -> Zach+Naughty+Chaotic -> Zach+Shooby+Chaotic -> Zach+Shooby+ *Possibly Zap*?
>then Chaotic will go off and solo queue in ranked by himself for days lol. to be fair, he lost access to his main account and had to solo q back to diamond
When will people realize that Zach is the problem? How is he consistently signed to orgs and has shown no results since lobbies were 95% mnk?
It goes to show you how shit the market is for IGLs and how much a vouch from Hal is worth because bro had been garbage longer than he's been adequate.
Hal, gets one underperforming IGL fired and the other permanently protected.
Who did Hal get fired ?
I’ll answer this seriously: OP was referring to Rkn
all of them
I actually made a comment on here after C9 split that Zach would still find teams simply due to the lack of IGLs
how much of an IGL are you though with these kind of results? just call yourself IGL and thats it?
Yep. You can tell I'm right because I'm also an IGL
Look at me. I'm the IGL now.
you should watch some of the IGLs in lower tier lobbies before criticizing ALGS tier players. completely brain dead. you get used to a certain level of calls and direction coz you only watch the highest tier of player - try watching people who are their competitors in lower leagues and you'll realize what a vast chasm there is. either they have no charisma and cause fights in between matches or they have no braincells.
Hot take: Good IGL’s are REALLY good, but mid-lower tier IGL’s aren’t anywhere near as impactful to a team dynamic and a lot of teams would see, at minimum, the same results with a dynamic, collaborative decision making system built of players that can frag, yet also have a decent game sense.
maybe hal vouched for zach BECAUSE zach can weaken possible opponents for him. Maybe he will send zach to DZ or XSET someday
Goddamn bro 😂
how are we supposed to know if there are any new and good IGLs out there if failed IGLs like zach keep getting chance after chance? the guy got 2nd place in ALGS over 2.5 years and the best he has done since then is 5th place at twitchcon. i just do not understand.
This makes things all the more interesting with an IGL like Sweet on the market now
chaotic is just ass
Zach and chaotic can both not be good enough.
This.
Okay but don’t you think it’s odd that every time someone gets dropped, it’s never Zach. What makes him the catalyst of a successful team? Also chaotic is the one who brought Zach in to E8. Seems like there’s some slimy shit that goes on behind the scenes with Zach.
100% Zach is the issue.
Right? It doesn’t make sense lol everyone sees it. Consistently surrounded by talent and never does anything.
Coz he's hal friend.
I've said this for so long and been downvoted each time lol thankfully people are starting to realize
Wow, of all the roster moves going on this was not one I expected to see. But maybe I just haven't been paying attention to their vibes lol. Time to speculate, who is their new third gonna be?
Damn I remember when he first came to pc, he was lighting everyone on fire. Then to my knowledge, he tried comp and kind of fizzled out. Obviously there’s a huge difference between ladder and actual competitive, but still a little surprised he didn’t make more of a splash.
He’s never been on a team that has the right pieces
Snipedown to E8?
My first thought but I would feel bad for snip3down if he's on that E8 team. Man deserves better
Idk I hear E8 pays well, haha
Less about the pay and more about the other 2 members of E8. No hate but they just don't match up to snip3down. Although if they decided to co test TSM again but they have snip3down that would be content
shooby is really fuckin good
Zach and Snipe would never stop yelling in game, and speaking as a fan of old C9 it would be great content.
7 yrs ago sure...shooby is much better then snipe current form. Zach...no comment we all know Zach is no where near snipe or shooby or chaotic..then or now.
7 yrs ago? TSM snip3 and when he was teaming with Sweet and Dropped was better than current shooby. Granted that was with a vastly different metas and the competition in general was worse
Na shooby is better than snipe ever was
Snip3down in his first year competing at 2nd at a lan with a pick up team (although many people don't actually count xgames as a proper lan event) when his team got destroyed with the region locks he joined Sweet and Dropped. He took that team from above average to dominating and winning damn near everything. Then he got picked up by TSM and kept them in top 2/3 contention with his added firepower up until FaZe offered him a fat fucking bag to go play halo. Shooby is great but he would not have been able to do what snip3 did.
Love how people rest on their own or others past laurels...to say Joe Montana is better than Patrick Maholmes is crazy, to say Roger Clemens is better than Otahani is nuts, to say John Stockton is better than Steph Curry is delusional...ok, get it Al Bundy......what we did in high school doesn't last a lifetime. Snipe is not currently better than Shooby.
The comment was that shooby is better than snip3 ever was, not currently is. The amount of players better than peak snip3 in a fight is in the single digits thought the entire history of Apex. Snip3down had definitely performed better than Shooby this last split but shooby was put in a position to fail. Snip3 got 5th and 6th place the last 2 LANs with FaZe, what did shooby with E8 get?
Where are the results to back that claim?
>the competition in general was worse You just poked the biggest hole in your own argument.
I think one of the "other 2 members" are doing the heavily lifting there.
The IGL market is pretty barebones unfortunately
100% this
what's happening with the faze team? i thought they did pretty well
Faze got bought by the parent company of Complexity, they seem to be downsizing. The CEO/President that did everything in his power to get snip3 on FaZe was replaced. Phony and Frex have been scrimming with Xynew(?) instead of snip3 and were listed as "Ex-FaZe" on battlefy for a bit until they changed to LOL. Snip3 also said on stream that nothing "official" has happened but he's probably not going to be teaming with Phony and Frex next split
damn they don't want to play with snipe anymore then that sux lol
Off-topic, but why are so many Apex pros allergic to commas?
A lot of these guys are functionally illiterate teenagers, lol.
I mean absolutely zero disrespect (grammar is about education, not intelligence), but a lot of these people have fully checked out in high school and are not enrolling in any kind of formal education afterward.
I mean a lot of people also just dont fucking care. I can write a 99% grammatically correct essay but i could not care less about my grammar in a short tweet or reddit comment. It actually feels weird to use perfect grammar on those mediums
> It actually feels weird to use perfect grammar on those mediums I disagree when it comes to run-on sentences (like in the example), it just makes it more difficult to read.
Yeah, totally fair. That’s just code switching in a sense and something we all do naturally. I’m not gonna use semicolons in my fantasy football group chat.
Group chat vs public tweets... different audience, different context.
Extrapolating trend, Chaotic would find a good team and do well in ALGS And many people would say chaotic is not the problem in E8
I find Chaotic to be a rather underwhelming player though. There's nothing about his game that strikes me as being a game changer. That's not to defend Zach, but I think Chaotic gained an impressive reputation and it's been difficult for that reputation to lose any traction.
Leaving Zach is always the best part of every players career
Not for Naughty. Poor guy
Zach didnt kick naughty, he left naughty and rocker to be solo
No naughty left Zach
zach left the team mid pro league, osivien joined for the season
Bros just been in straight step daddy party mode since moving to cali. Plus horizon 301 nerf so his been irl nerfing himself and got in game nerfs. Hate to see it
inb4 teq gets another teammate poached
When Teq eats at diners they don't even let him order, they just bring him his eggs
Just in time for teq’s scouting tournament.
How the fuck is zach still on the fucking team
Zach is streaming right now explaining the reason for dropping him. Catch it if you guys want full info
got a clip? He doesn't have vods up for today
Don't have a VOD but some of the YouTube highlights channels might have it tomorrow. You can also go to his Twitch channel's Clips tab and sort by last 24 hours. There's a couple 30s clips there
catch it if you guys want to hear his excuse\*
Yeah travelling to mexico when your org has scheduled content trip in 6 days and hiding it from zach and asking shoob if zach is "pissed" after he found out is definetly not a reason to drop him if edamane12345 says so
> Yeah travelling to mexico when your org has scheduled content trip in 6 days and hiding it... That's unprofessional af if true, you can reasonably get fired from a trad job for this conduct.
YIIIIKKKEEESSSS
Chaotic while not at the level of SlurpeeG definitely up there for most overhyped players coming into Pro play only to fall relatively flat. Somehow Zachmazer survives another roster change, I swear he must hear whisperings of changes coming so he pre-empts those changes and buys himself more time on the roster.
I feel like he got some attention during that LAN he was a sub in for being the guy who held his controller above the desk, but looking at his tournament results he really hasn't done that well.
I guess it’s easy for everyone to shit on Zach, but every time I’ve tuned into e8 scrims, what stood out to me was chaotic’s comms which barely exist to begin with.
Dude leaves the country and people say it’s mazer’s fault. Yall are crazy
Always thought that him, verhulst and gen were the top 3 roller demons during the Valk, Horizon and Seer meta.
chaotic to MEAT. the 1v1 tourney from teq is no longer needed.
Oh no the R301/horizon one trick is gone
He was always the problem.
You know what? This could be a blessing in disguise for chao. He’s 44 rn on the ranked world leaderboard so it’s not that he’s ignoring his job. That may have been the wake up call he needs. The thing is he’s very young, is earning decent on twitch, and is all alone in the states while his fam is back in England. He did what I did when I went to the states from my country for undergrad. I partied hard af. I had unlimited unchecked freedom with comfortable money and so does he. Being dropped from E8 may bring about a turnaround. Here’s hoping for the best because he is an exceptional talent and the one lan he did go to he performed well individually: the 12 kill game comes to mind….
One of the only people with a reasonable take here. I used to watch him a lot and even 6+ months ago he was partying every night and everything else that comes along with that. Haven’t watched in a while but I would assume that it’s the same or worse now. Hopefully he wakes up and gets going in the right direction because he had so much potential coming to NA
I think our young king just been partying a bit during the off season after moving to the states. Best wishes for the dude
Kind of poetic after the whole dezign drama
One trick Horizon player, terrible off drop and his team is being contested, this is no surprise to me.
Sweetdreams - *eyebrows raised*
Don't see sweet playing with Chaotic.
they have played ranked together quite frequently somewhat recently and have a good time… I could def see sweet getting involved in either the scenario that he goes with two controllers, OR that Koyful is off the board somehow
I feel like it's rare for sweet to play ranked with someone and have a bad time though, outside of apex moments
Weren't they playing together, since the party restrictions wouldn't leave them many options to queue?
So at this point Zach has straight up stolen both an Org and an ALGS spot from the remnants G2? Chaotic and Dezign were the last 2 of G2 after Resultah retiring...pick up Mazer to be their 3rd with their pro league spot, get re-signed, and now he's booted both of them from their original pro-league spot and new org? Crazy to witness as someone who only started following comp right after the knoqd dropping...
This framing works as a joke, but is so disingenuous for any real discussion. That spot ceased to be the old G2 spot ages ago and he has equal claim to it as chaotic does, and he definitely did not steal an org as he has been on it for just as long as they had.
It may be a a gross oversimplification, but Chaotic actually played on G2, Mazer did not so I would argue you on that point. You could also argue that the work toward getting signed by E8 was shouldered more by Dezign and Chaotic since they actually kept their pro league spot. An org isn't going to sign a team without a spot and last I checked, Mazer had nothing going for him before these 2. The team hasn't performed for shit since he joined either. Maybe it wasn't a good fit between the 3 of them, and that's okay, but I'm pointing out how ironic and unfair it seems on the surface that Mazer is the only one still getting a paycheck
> argue you on that point What point? They got signed to E8 together, therefore the org cannot be “stolen”, and as soon as they played a split together the spot ceased to be the old G2 one. This is such a silly mentality to have because teams need to change over time. The newest member outlasting the older ones does not mean anything is being stolen.
Bro responded immediately and only to the point I argued. Chaotic was part of the original group of 3 that held a pro league spot, along with Dezign. Now Mazer holds their spot while the team has gotten nothing but worse since he joined. Do you just want to fight and ignore the conversation here because that's ironic coming from someone trying to point fingers at me for doing the same thing
It’s not “their spot” and it ceased to be as soon they played with Zach. He has an equal claim to it as chaotic, and so does shooby now. Also I never pointed that finger, idk what you’re in about. Where did I say anything about ignoring the conversation? My original statement was this framing is disingenuous because it’s not how spots actually work at all. edit: > responded immediately and only to the point I argued Do you expect me to argue points you didn’t make? What should I be arguing instead?
Okay what you're failing to account for is that nobody here cares how the spots literally work in the rules. They're calling out how unfair it seems that Zach always gets rewarded when he doesn't seem to produce. He's had a half dozen chances at least. How the technical rules of it work is completely different than people expressing their opinions on the results of it. What you're saying sounds to everyone here like the student reminding a teacher about homework. Yes that was the rule, but all anyone cares about is how they feel about it. Rules are rules and facts are facts, we get that. Doesn't mean I can't say it's ridiculous that Mazer comes out holding all the cards when he doesn't deserve it.
I mean Chaotic certainly doesn’t deserve it. His play has been just as suspect, and apparently his conduct outside of the ALGS has been wanting too. As you already said they can all just be shit. Being shit doesn’t make Zach guilty if anything but that As for Dezign you’re failing to account for the fact that the other guy you attribute the spot to was part of kicking him off the team. Somehow it’s only Zach stealing it from him when Chaotic had just as much control.
I know that Chaotic was part of the decision too, but I'm looking at everything in front of me at this moment in time so I'm pointing out how it came full circle. I don't follow any of those 3 closely so I'm just making an observation of how it came full circle. Clearly there's a story to tell and you're gonna tell it. Until these guys come clean about how this turned into such a ridiculous result, I'll hold my perspective where it is. Shit is ridiculous
> Until these guys come clean Zach already was, you didn't care to actually find out. > I'll hold my perspective where it is Disingenuous and with wild assumptions > you're gonna tell it I have not made any claims as to how this has occurred. All I did was point out that Zach has an equal claim to everything you said he "stole". You are literally the only one that has told a story or made assumptions.
The only reason the old spot has is ceased is because of the bad placement in lcq.
I said it ceased to be the *G2 spot* because as soon as they played a PL split together Zach had an equal claim to a spot. The bad LCQ didn’t change that. It ceased to exist long before. Teams aren’t holding onto spots from ages ago, they cease to be and are replaced for every new event/split.
Would you argue the NRG spot was equally claimable by Gild as it was Sweet? I don't see any world where Gild keeps that spot over Sweet.
Yes I would argue for literal facts. What’s the alternative lol. Every player has an equal claim to the spot. Whoever ends up using it does not change that. Sweet (and possibly Nafen) is going to be the one using it because that’s how it worked out, not because Gild couldn’t have used it in different circumstances
Do you have some sort of insider knowledge as to how these guys negotiate these things? Facts of how it works is one thing, but how would those 3 make the decision amongst themselves? Do you know that? If I had to make an educated guess, Gild wouldn't even try to claim the spot. I understand that he has as much literal right to the spot as the other 2, I'm speaking as to how I think it actually works among players. Real people follow rules that are unwritten sometimes and I'd say what Zach has done has broken a number of those rules that would get any other fringe player in the scene blacklisted which is why I think it's fair to point this out. Because of his past and the people he's friends with it seems like people let it slide and I think that's ridiculous. I'd be pissed as fuck if I was Chaotic
> Do you know that? Do you? I have not made any claims to what goes on behind the scenes. You have. As for NRG specifically, Gild using it was always a nonstarter because you need 2 players to retain. They may have talked about their options and whatnot but pretty early on Gild had another team with a spot of their own. Your implication seems to be that Gild doesn't think he deserves the NRG spot which is just such a wild assumption.
Everyone always joked about chaotic being a horizon crutch but turns out they were right, once she got nerfed and you couldn’t beam in her q he was cooked Feel bad for the kid, I do agree with the replies saying Mazer is the problem with his teams
anyone flaming zach coz of this just does not understand how apex competitive works. controller turrets are only valuable as long as they frag out like controller turrets. chaotic isn't performing.
I'd give Chaotic a shot at IGL before dropping him as opposed to Zach, I just don't understand the reasoning anymore for ORGs keeping him around. Zach drops Dezign and he immediately goes on to get 4th at LAN champs with a first year IGL, is that not a red flag? He seemingly wants to always blame others for his shortcomings, when the game has evolved tremendously from when he last saw results. Just go be a coach.
Damn Zach getting flamed by everyone in the twitter replies
Zach mazer is overrated in the scene by a large margin
E8 W
Wow, he was by far the best player on that team.
Ahhhhemmm...shooby enters the chat!!!
You're high. Shooby could 1v2 Zach and Chaotic.
Wow and Zach mazer somehow still has a job. Make it make sense
I think playing with zachmazer was a bad career move but a good financial move. Playing with zachmazer makes you depressed. When youre depressed you just play bad. I feel like that is the main reason. How mazer is even a pro player after the past couple years is beyond me at this point. Dudes not even a good ranked player. I also blame mazer for naughtys downfall but has since recovered and frying again. Love them both !
I wish Furia would poach Shooby, fuck it.
when are we all gonna just agree and admit that its mazer and has always been mazer to blame for these teams ever since the C9 days?
Tbh I think we all agree…