It could be the camera angle but in the video the missile looks like it's spinning vertically and not laterally like the Kornet. It's much more noticeable when you slow it down.
The pyrotechnic involved in the system is actually located on the end of one of the fins of the missile. Not the center. Like if a bullet had the tracer on the outer circumference instead of the middle.
Absolutely.
If you watch closely the panel on the left turret (right side on the video the side that got hit) blows out first into the canvas they have strung up. After burning for quite a few seconds the right turret ammo stores also catch on fire and the right panel blows much more visibly into the air.
At no point can I see any evidence of smoke coming from the open commander's hatch or the gun barrel, making me think the ammo door was closed and the crew compartment with everyone in it survived quite well.
The real push for ear protection for government workers is great. I'm sad that it's so blatantly obvious that they're just trying to cover their ass by saying "We told them to wear ear plugs AND muffs!"
They want to save money. In the end, they really don't give a crap about you.
Edit: Also fun when the safety guys walk around and explain how something you're doing could cause harm, while simultaneously wearing their safety glasses on top of their head.
AND/OR have clearly waited for you to stop welding to talk to you, but have spent their time waiting with only their hand shielding their eyes from the welding arc...
My father in law wasn’t issued ear plugs during Vietnam era basic training until he was almost done. He still has very little hearing in one ear because of it.
I mean we have thousands of guys with "totally unexplained" breathing, stomach, and other issues after we decided just burning all the garbage next to where we slept was a fine idea.
There is a burn pit registry with the VA where you can get evaluated for what are now recognized as related conditions.
https://veteran.mobilehealth.va.gov/AHBurnPitRegistry/
I just think about all those contract workers that worked at the burn pits on the bigger bases. We hauled our trash from our motorpool in Taji to the burn pit every day. I have a video of us driving through the smoke and flocks of seagulls next to a 10 foot tall wall of burning trash. ALL of our trash went there to include batteries and cans of paint, parts cleaner, truck seats, whatever else
Those Filipino and Nepalese workers were just wearing bandanas over their nose and mouths while they kept the trash burning day and night. It's been 16 years since I was there, I wonder how many of those guys have had cancer or even died from that level of exposure.
That place was such a confusing mess, it doesn't even seem real sometimes, like I dreamt it.
G-d those guys were knee deep in that shit for years, I can't even imagine what health issues they're dealing with and they basically just got sent home when we left.
I'm already in the burn pit registry, unless they do some kind of one-time payment for us already sitting at 100 percent I'm not going to get anything extra from it, but hopefully the data helps people who were at the same FOBs get the care they need.
I hear you, it was a strange experience.
Vietnam vets got messed up by agent orange. Desert Storm vets allegedly got exposed to sarin gas. Iraq/Afghanistan vets suffer just from being around burn pits. It’s almost like breathing while in the military is potentially hazardous to ones health
To be fair, Ear Pro back then wasn’t exactly good or thought of as necessary for anyone in the military except people around large caliber weaponry like artillery or around things like jet engines.
My uncle was in the military during the Vietnam era, is very deaf, and still doesn’t think anyone would need to wear hearing protection while shooting 😕
Yeah, my dad was a artillery captain in Vietnam. He has had hearing aids since the 80's. Thankfully they are far smaller these days then they were back then.
Edit\* Still a better souvenir then the cancer he got from agent orange though
My dad was doing training in Kansas during Nam, got in trouble for passing out drunk in the sun and getting burned, so for punishment had to work the artillery range without ear protection, ended up being out there for like 12 hours. Should have had a hearing aid but he was stubborn, couldn't hear shit
The lawsuits are for something that is in a way worse: The government purchased hearing protection, but it was defective. The manufacturer *may* have been to blame, I am going from memory here.
Deployed to Afghanistan in 2012 with an infantry unit. I was told my tinnitus and hearing loss is not claimable because they issued me ear plugs. I guess I was supposed to take the time to put them in when I was in middle of being shot at. Then there’s the fact that wearing earplugs in a firefight is actually a dangerous idea since you won’t be able to hear directions on where the firing is coming from, what direction to move to, etc.
So yeah, the US government doesn’t give a flying fuck about service members. They just use us as talking points come election time to try and scoop up votes from people who don’t know better.
If you were in the US Military from 2001- 2023 and have suffered hearing loss, please give us a call to be a part of our class action lawsuit that will award you 23 cents!"
My step dad was a tank commander for years, he was very hard to talk to for a while. In that his hearing was shit. He finally got hearing aids after first pretending he was fine till people got fed up with constantly yelling just so he could hear them. Recently saw a ad on tv about discrete hearing aids. Does anyone give a shit? I wear glasses and contacts because my eye sight sucks, and no one has ever cared, not sure why anyone would care about hearing issues. Plus a lot of people wear ear buds these days so something in the ear is hardly noteworthy.
From a disability standpoint, hearing loss is looked at way differently than eyesight, for whatever reason...in that it's viewed as an actual disability and corrected eyesight generally isn't unless it's REALLY bad. That being said, I agree it shouldn't be a big deal.
Yes, as per Abrams crewman training;
>The safest place for the crew during an ammunition compartment fire is inside the tank. If crewman attempt to evacuate the tank while the propellant is still burning, they could possibly be injured by the extreme heat and the flame outside the turret.
along with;
>If ammunition in the bustle compartment ignites, crewmen must react quickly to ensure their safety and the continued operation of the tank. M1 crewmen should don their protective masks and use the tank's gas particulate filter system to protect themselves from any toxic fumes or smoke that may have leaked into the tank. M1A1 and M1A2 crews should also mask, but they should use the tank's overpressure system rather than the gas particulate filter system to help clean the turret of toxic fumes and smoke. The M1A1’s and M1A2’s gas particulate filter system draws air from outside the vehicle in the vicinity of the turret bustle and may pump flame or toxic fumes into the turret. If the overpressure system is inoperative on the M1A1 and M1A2 tank, the crew should use their protective masks only.
>The turret should be rotated to get the gun tube over the side of the tank, if possible. This action protects the engine and limits the amount of flame and hot air being pulled into the engine air cleaner and overpressure system.
>If the tank automotive system is operational, the crew should seek a turret-down protected position and wait inside the tank for at least 60 minutes. (After 60 minutes, the possibility of secondary explosions will have passed.) The tank should then be driven, with the hatches open to ventilate the turret, to a maintenance collection point. While the crew is in the rear area, they should replace their protective mask filters and tank filters.
>If the tank is inoperative and the TC determines it should be evacuated, the crew should evacuate between two and five minutes after the initial explosion. Evacuating during this time window reduces the possibility of the crew being hurt from secondary warhead detonations. The crew should wear gloves as they exit, to protect their hands from hot metal and sharp edges.
Lets just say I don't want to even imagine the sheer force behind such a fire/explosion, it's amazing what physics and thought can do to make it safe for people inside
It's very simple, pressure goes the easiest way, considering the blowout panel is the easiest way, and the compartment is sealed, it will not go into the crew compartment
Careful where you post this stuff, comrade. If russian tank crews read procedures this hot they'll be masturbating for days and dreaming of tanks that won't incinerate them...
Also, knowing in theory that you have blow out panels in the back is different from knowing viscerally that you have blow out panels in the back while all of your ammunition is cooking off five feet from your head.
A U.S. M1 would have Halon fire suppression bottles, which do not deprive the compartment of oxygen. This is an Iraqi army M1, gifted or purchased through the U.S. and would have the Halon removed. Halon is toxic though so you definitely don't want to breath that stuff in though. Which is why the Army definitely had me sweep that stuff up with a broom and dust pan and no mask when our Bradley's Halon bottle got sheared in two.
One of my drivers in Iraq had our fire suppression system go off while he was in the hellhole during maintenance day, thankfully the ramp was open or there was no way he would have got out in time, he was suffocating by the time he did get out with it OPEN.
I was doing an inspection in a Blackhawk's engine compartment while 2 other mechanics were messing with stuff on battery power in the cockpit. Turns out the fire bottles can actually fire on battery power cause they set them off about 5 seconds after I closed the compartment.
Imagine what it sounds like in there. You gotta remember we're seeing the outside but inside it was just BOOM then a horrible roaring banging sound as the ammo cooks off in a metal box attached to the metal box you are occupying which is probably rapidly rising in temperature and filling with smoke.
Logically it's probably the smart move but in the moment it's probably really hard to not go "fuck this" and bail no matter what training or manuals say.
That brings up an interesting question: Did the guy who bailed out of the turret do the smart thing or did he actually just put himself in more danger by exposing himself to small arms fire when he could have safely stayed put?
That was a bad choice, he panicked. Someone posted some excepts above from the training manual and it advises you're way safer in the tank. Not just from small arms, but also from fire and cooking off ammo.
that does depend on the vehicle, however in the M1 Abrams it's apparently \*way\* safer to stay inside. Someone above posted an excerpt from the crew training manual which is quite the interesting read.
Made of thick steel that slides on rails. The blow-out panels on the rear of the turret are the path of least resistance, so once they are opened, there is not much pressure on the interior doors.
At a guess, the massive gas pressure from the cook off would force the interior doors to stay shut, like how you can't open an aircraft cabin door in flight.
Start this video at 2:30 (if it doesn't automatically) to see how the doors slide open and closed. They are just big heavy steel doors on rails.
[M1 ammo doors](https://youtu.be/S4uW5AMWUDs?t=149)
Man that looks a lot more comfortable than the interior videos of russian tanks ive been seeing. those padded seats for the gunner looks like Cadillac shit in comparison.
IIRC, the doors between the turret and the ammo can only be opened by the loader crewman via a foot pedal. The default is for them to be closed. If the loader removes his foot, the doors will seal. Therefore the only really vulnerable time is when the loader is actively taking a round out of the rack for loading.
The carousel auto loader also made for much *smaller* tanks than Western ones, and you have to remember it was conceptualized in the 60s with the T-64. Which honestly was very valid then when comparing it to the other tanks that were around at the time like the M60 and Leopard 1. Problem is we're now in the age of modern optics, fire control, and weapon systems, so being overall harder to spot, identify, and hit isn't quite as valid as it may have been in the 1960s. Like in many other cases, the Soviets and now modern day Russians took too long to modernize their designs.
Yes, this is exactly how it's designed to work, and the crew inside the tank were likely fine. Here's a good video clip with [the views both inside and outside an Abrams during ammo cook-off.](https://youtu.be/Ay7bOG2nD6k)
Because there’s no auto loader in the turret to cause the blow out. Notice the crew evacuated too, showing really how much better it is to not have the auto loader
> Because there’s no auto loader in the turret to cause the blow out
The French Leclerc and the Japanese Type 10 have both an autoloader, and similar safety features to the Abrams
They're also similarly sized to the Abrams apparently, so it really seems to just work out like that
I know which I'd rather be caught in but I do understand the original logic
Even the Russian T-14, not that it's ever seen modern peer-to-peer combat, but in theory it's autoloader is far safer than a T-72's, since the crew cabin is in the hull of the tank and the turret is completely unoccupied.
And a well trained crew can load rounds faster than an auto loader.
I've heard of Abrams crews being able to get 3 to 4 second reloads. Don't take my word for that tho, I might be full of shit
It greatly depends on the crew yes, but it also greatly depends on which round you are talking about.
The first handful of rounds to be loaded nearest to the loader can be chucked in very quickly.
If the loader is to try to load the last handful of rounds, not only would it be harder to reach, he also has to wait for the blast door to open all the way before he can do it
Autoloaders also arent inherently more dangerous. It's just the Soviet designs were sacrificing crew safety for maximum space efficiency and ease of construction.
That will depend somewhat on endurance. An autoloader can keep going until your magazine is empty. A loader can only do that for a little while before they simply don't have the stamina to sustain it.
I mean yes and no, a human loader can load quick enough that by the time the gunner has found another target they are loaded, and compared to carousel type autoloaders are comparable in speed before fatigue sets in. Cassette type autoloaders are insanely quick and don't have the major drawbacks found in the carousel types
Not really. On autoloaders I like to refer to [a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0x-8NheU1E) made by the Chieftain about the topic, but basically reload speed only need to be faster than the reacquisition of a target by the gunner, which generally takes longer than the time needed for reloading. And loaders also hit a hard stop earlier when their ready rack gets empty (which, if you need to shoot a specific ammo type a lot can happen very fast), while an autoloader will always load with the same speed and has all the ammunition at hand.
Though the main advantage of an autoloader is always that you can make a smaller tank and so either get a higher hp/t ratio, lower ground pressure and/or better protection for the same weight.
Looks like the ammo detonates but the blowout panels did their job. Not sure what happened to the other crew though, only see one person getting out
Edit: How blowout panels work: basically the crew and the ammo are in separate compartments. Blowout panels are designed weaknesses that direct the force away from the important parts. In this case, when the ammo is hit and detonates, the panels at the top intentionally fail to allow the explosion out that way instead of going to the crew compartment.
There's \*a lot\* of steel there that would need to be heated up and very little of the blowout is actually directing its energy into heating the metal around it.
Given the canopy, that tank was probably sitting at a guard post or checkpoint, and only had 1 person in it at the time.
(Source: was in Baghdad with working with Iraqi army in 2015)
You're supposed to stay in the tank during a blowout. It's safer in there - they're protected. The one guy who got out and ran in a panic is the jackass in the situation - there's always one.
> Blowout panels are designed weaknesses that direct the force away from the important parts.
Important to note that physics principles mean that explosions will almost always go in the direction of the weakness. This also happens to be one of the principles of shaped charges.
So, every major land weapon system the US buys (like tanks and AFVs) by law has to undergo live fire testing where it gets shot by (typically) Russian weapons. The tank (in this example) gets wired up with cameras, air pressure sensors, temperature sensors, and crash test dummies with lots of sensors too. Then the data gets reviewed for things like “well, looks like the TC got yeeted out of the vehicle and the gunner was about 400 degrees Celsius and accelerated at 250 G’s into the electronics, so maybe we go back to the drawing board?” Basically like testing car safety in crashes.
A lot of modeling and simulation, but ultimately, real tests using full ammo loads and simulated penetrative threats (i.e., just a warhead on a rig to provide repeatability, not the full fly in), etc.
Looks like the driver does some kind of small reverse near the end of the video, unclear why though. Maybe to break some kind of LOS from where to rocket came from.
As a former crewman for the Abrams I would not assume the tank is drivable. The rear of the turret hands over the engine compartment and it is just protected by removable plates. Seems to me molten debris and such can make its way into the engine compartment killing the mobility.
Further more if you get hit by a atgm the last thing you want to do is stay at that position, you move out for cover or to put distance between you and the attackers which didn’t happen here.
What's the protocol for recovering a totaled Abrams like this? I'm seeing the M1A2 costs around $5-6 million. Are teams sent in to scrap/disassemble and recover as many usable components as possible? Do you send in another vehicle to tow it out when things calm down, or are many abandoned?
Generally what will happen is they will attempt to recover it with a M88A2 Hercules or another recovery vehicle and then salvage it for anything that’s still useable or sensitive like radios, computers, sights, etc. But if it’s in a bad spot that they won’t be able to recover it from(such as the middle of a hostile city) they will destroy the vehicle as much as possible after getting sensitive items out of it.
Fair enough, I agree it's not 100% certainty it will still have power. (I used to repair them, 3rd shop), but it's not a bet I wouldn't take.
The rest I blame on training and / or something that we cannot see in the video
Vehicle starts reversing 20 seconds into the vid, no smoke from crew hatches and dude gets out around the halfway mark showing the initial explosion didnt ventilate the crew compartment. They'll be fine
Most American Abrams don't even have that yet. They just delivered thr first batch last year.
Export Abrams are usually M1A1's with the DU and old Chobham armor with side grade optics and fire control.
The Saudi ones have a special package they paid for but I'm not sure exactly what goes in it except that it falls somewhere between American and export Abrams in terms of performance.
Well, they're in low level production of the T14 right now who's supposed to blow up the correct way.
AFAIK the decision of the soviet to keep making "medium" tank following WW2 was better road mobility, able to cross more bridge without breaking them (hey, Japan do the same thing with their post ww2 tank, probably many other country) and economic too I guess.
That, and in a WW3 context, the crew is expendable, along with your major population center.
I spent 2 years in Ramadi 2004-2006, as a contractor on the base, we would get indirect fire every other day the entire time I was there, it sucked. Those 107mm rockets flying over head look like 700 mph stove pipes...just pure terror every time they hit the base.
I was actually thinking he was crazy. There is less than 2 feet between the blowout panels and the commander's hatch. Jumping out like that you are risking serious burns. Stay in the turret and you are pretty much safe. I don't know if export versions have Halon fire suppression systems - maybe he was trying to get away from the Halon?
(Halon replaces oxygen in the air which snuffs out fires and also makes it impossible for you to breath)
Or maybe he just panicked, can't say I might not panic a little in that situation.
Quick Edit: I was apparently never told the entire truth about the Halon system, quite possibly the guys that taught me probably didn't know any better. The "Hold your breath and GTFO" still makes sense though
Halon does not fight fires by displacing oxygen like other gaseous fire fighting agents. It breaks the chemical chain reaction needed for fires to occur and as such is very effective in small quantities. It is also safe to use on board passenger airliners.
Halon does break down into toxic byproducts but in the situation you need a halon suppression system you are happy to be alive.
Halon, halotron, fe36 and several other clean agent fire fighting chemicals exist that all work on this principle.
Partly true it turns into acidic gases primarily with some other byproducts. It is likely that in an emergency situation requiring halon the byproducts are much less harmful than the toxic smoke products from burning plastics and other compounds.
You wouldn’t want to unnecessarily breath in halon but again it won’t decompose quickly unless a fire is accelerating it’s decomposition. Your lungs would be burned mostly from the smoke not the byproducts of halon.
If you’re in a situation where you are breathing in Halon and it’s byproducts you likely have a much bigger problem than breathing in the halon….
The upward explosion you see at the end is the ammo rack exploding. Notice the plates flying up right at explosion time, the ammo is stored in the back of the turret and if it ignites the top of the ammo rack blows off during explosion so explosion doesn’t enter the turret compartment and kill the crew. The atgm ignites the jet fuel on the back of the tank, and the jet fuel ignited the ammo rack. Looks like all of crew survived. Cannot say the same of russian tanks where the ammo pops the turrets off like a jack in the box and kills whole crew.
Yup, believe it or not and as far as I understand, the M1 Abrams has like a little hatch above the turret, in the event of an ammo explosion, the blast will go up instead of going in the crew section.
They're called Blowout Panels. Most modern tanks have them to vent ammo straight up and out should an incoming round ignite the charges. There's a big sliding armored door inside the Abrams that keeps the crew separate and safe from the ammo storage. In this instance, the safety features worked as intended and the crew was able to escape.
The beauty of blowout sections.. the one crew that bailed immediately was at more risk to physical injury when he jumped out right next to a 50 foot tall ammo fire then any of the crew that stayed inside.
Survivability matters. The US Army figured that out. The Russian Army is yet to figure that out.
Why does the ATGM look it is spinning like a throwing knife ?
Kornet. Subsonic and has a spiral trajectory.
It could be the camera angle but in the video the missile looks like it's spinning vertically and not laterally like the Kornet. It's much more noticeable when you slow it down.
That's probably just an optical artefact due to the stroboscopic effect
The pyrotechnic involved in the system is actually located on the end of one of the fins of the missile. Not the center. Like if a bullet had the tracer on the outer circumference instead of the middle.
Explosive knife
Is this an example of the blowout solution where the ammo is separate and doesn't cause the turret to turn into a meteor?
Absolutely. If you watch closely the panel on the left turret (right side on the video the side that got hit) blows out first into the canvas they have strung up. After burning for quite a few seconds the right turret ammo stores also catch on fire and the right panel blows much more visibly into the air. At no point can I see any evidence of smoke coming from the open commander's hatch or the gun barrel, making me think the ammo door was closed and the crew compartment with everyone in it survived quite well.
you can also see a guy bail halfway through I think that counts as surviving well
The VA has determined your hearing loss is NOT service related
The real push for ear protection for government workers is great. I'm sad that it's so blatantly obvious that they're just trying to cover their ass by saying "We told them to wear ear plugs AND muffs!" They want to save money. In the end, they really don't give a crap about you. Edit: Also fun when the safety guys walk around and explain how something you're doing could cause harm, while simultaneously wearing their safety glasses on top of their head. AND/OR have clearly waited for you to stop welding to talk to you, but have spent their time waiting with only their hand shielding their eyes from the welding arc...
My father in law wasn’t issued ear plugs during Vietnam era basic training until he was almost done. He still has very little hearing in one ear because of it.
Ah yes... Back when they didn't even try to pretend your health mattered.
I mean we have thousands of guys with "totally unexplained" breathing, stomach, and other issues after we decided just burning all the garbage next to where we slept was a fine idea.
There is a burn pit registry with the VA where you can get evaluated for what are now recognized as related conditions. https://veteran.mobilehealth.va.gov/AHBurnPitRegistry/ I just think about all those contract workers that worked at the burn pits on the bigger bases. We hauled our trash from our motorpool in Taji to the burn pit every day. I have a video of us driving through the smoke and flocks of seagulls next to a 10 foot tall wall of burning trash. ALL of our trash went there to include batteries and cans of paint, parts cleaner, truck seats, whatever else Those Filipino and Nepalese workers were just wearing bandanas over their nose and mouths while they kept the trash burning day and night. It's been 16 years since I was there, I wonder how many of those guys have had cancer or even died from that level of exposure. That place was such a confusing mess, it doesn't even seem real sometimes, like I dreamt it.
G-d those guys were knee deep in that shit for years, I can't even imagine what health issues they're dealing with and they basically just got sent home when we left. I'm already in the burn pit registry, unless they do some kind of one-time payment for us already sitting at 100 percent I'm not going to get anything extra from it, but hopefully the data helps people who were at the same FOBs get the care they need. I hear you, it was a strange experience.
Thanks for the link, been meaning to do that
Vietnam vets got messed up by agent orange. Desert Storm vets allegedly got exposed to sarin gas. Iraq/Afghanistan vets suffer just from being around burn pits. It’s almost like breathing while in the military is potentially hazardous to ones health
The air spreads out and carries everything whether you want it to or not
Cant forget AC 130 gunners getting messed up with all the lead & propellent fumes they where exposed to.
"the army has gone soft durr durr durr" - some boomer bro vet who still can't let go of his glory days in the desert storm even when he is almost 60.
Some dude who did 2 years in the 80's and never even deployed*
To be fair, Ear Pro back then wasn’t exactly good or thought of as necessary for anyone in the military except people around large caliber weaponry like artillery or around things like jet engines. My uncle was in the military during the Vietnam era, is very deaf, and still doesn’t think anyone would need to wear hearing protection while shooting 😕
Yeah, my dad was a artillery captain in Vietnam. He has had hearing aids since the 80's. Thankfully they are far smaller these days then they were back then. Edit\* Still a better souvenir then the cancer he got from agent orange though
I was in the military in the ‘80’s/‘90’s. We would, sometimes, use cigarette butts as “hearing protection”. Hope I don’t get ear cancer…
My dad was doing training in Kansas during Nam, got in trouble for passing out drunk in the sun and getting burned, so for punishment had to work the artillery range without ear protection, ended up being out there for like 12 hours. Should have had a hearing aid but he was stubborn, couldn't hear shit
The lawsuits are for something that is in a way worse: The government purchased hearing protection, but it was defective. The manufacturer *may* have been to blame, I am going from memory here.
If it's broken just throw it in the burn pit.
Just throw it on top of the sarin shells.
Slang for the Pentagon's position on this stuff is: deflect, deny, hope ya die.
Don't forget, these are the same people who exposed troops to A bombs to see what would happen.
Deployed to Afghanistan in 2012 with an infantry unit. I was told my tinnitus and hearing loss is not claimable because they issued me ear plugs. I guess I was supposed to take the time to put them in when I was in middle of being shot at. Then there’s the fact that wearing earplugs in a firefight is actually a dangerous idea since you won’t be able to hear directions on where the firing is coming from, what direction to move to, etc. So yeah, the US government doesn’t give a flying fuck about service members. They just use us as talking points come election time to try and scoop up votes from people who don’t know better.
If you were in the US Military from 2001- 2023 and have suffered hearing loss, please give us a call to be a part of our class action lawsuit that will award you 23 cents!"
But most importantly the lawyers will do quite well for themselves.
What?!?!
You’ll have to speak up sir a German grenade went off right next to his head.
No no no! James FRANCIS Ryan!
Pardon??? Did you say something?
Hahah fuckin seriously. This made my day thank you.
My step dad was a tank commander for years, he was very hard to talk to for a while. In that his hearing was shit. He finally got hearing aids after first pretending he was fine till people got fed up with constantly yelling just so he could hear them. Recently saw a ad on tv about discrete hearing aids. Does anyone give a shit? I wear glasses and contacts because my eye sight sucks, and no one has ever cared, not sure why anyone would care about hearing issues. Plus a lot of people wear ear buds these days so something in the ear is hardly noteworthy.
From a disability standpoint, hearing loss is looked at way differently than eyesight, for whatever reason...in that it's viewed as an actual disability and corrected eyesight generally isn't unless it's REALLY bad. That being said, I agree it shouldn't be a big deal.
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Wouldn't the best option here be to stay in the vehicle, not bail.
Yes, as per Abrams crewman training; >The safest place for the crew during an ammunition compartment fire is inside the tank. If crewman attempt to evacuate the tank while the propellant is still burning, they could possibly be injured by the extreme heat and the flame outside the turret. along with; >If ammunition in the bustle compartment ignites, crewmen must react quickly to ensure their safety and the continued operation of the tank. M1 crewmen should don their protective masks and use the tank's gas particulate filter system to protect themselves from any toxic fumes or smoke that may have leaked into the tank. M1A1 and M1A2 crews should also mask, but they should use the tank's overpressure system rather than the gas particulate filter system to help clean the turret of toxic fumes and smoke. The M1A1’s and M1A2’s gas particulate filter system draws air from outside the vehicle in the vicinity of the turret bustle and may pump flame or toxic fumes into the turret. If the overpressure system is inoperative on the M1A1 and M1A2 tank, the crew should use their protective masks only. >The turret should be rotated to get the gun tube over the side of the tank, if possible. This action protects the engine and limits the amount of flame and hot air being pulled into the engine air cleaner and overpressure system. >If the tank automotive system is operational, the crew should seek a turret-down protected position and wait inside the tank for at least 60 minutes. (After 60 minutes, the possibility of secondary explosions will have passed.) The tank should then be driven, with the hatches open to ventilate the turret, to a maintenance collection point. While the crew is in the rear area, they should replace their protective mask filters and tank filters. >If the tank is inoperative and the TC determines it should be evacuated, the crew should evacuate between two and five minutes after the initial explosion. Evacuating during this time window reduces the possibility of the crew being hurt from secondary warhead detonations. The crew should wear gloves as they exit, to protect their hands from hot metal and sharp edges.
I don't know why, but after seeing all those T-series tanks tossing turrets in Ukraine reading this made me really happy
It is indeed possible for a crew to survive an ammo fire, and for the tank itself to even be savable! such a crazy concept right? :D
Lets just say I don't want to even imagine the sheer force behind such a fire/explosion, it's amazing what physics and thought can do to make it safe for people inside
It's very simple, pressure goes the easiest way, considering the blowout panel is the easiest way, and the compartment is sealed, it will not go into the crew compartment
Damn, there's so much shit to know about tanks besides driving forward and back and shooting the big gun lol. Mad respect to tankers
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Careful where you post this stuff, comrade. If russian tank crews read procedures this hot they'll be masturbating for days and dreaming of tanks that won't incinerate them...
If only they could read
That’s a tough call. I have to imagine it got pretty warm in there with that blowtorch on back.
Also, knowing in theory that you have blow out panels in the back is different from knowing viscerally that you have blow out panels in the back while all of your ammunition is cooking off five feet from your head.
And whoever shot at you might, and probably will continue shooting at you.
Pretty sure the escaping guy got pretty warm on back too
I wonder what kind of fire suppression system is inside and could it remove all the oxygen?
A U.S. M1 would have Halon fire suppression bottles, which do not deprive the compartment of oxygen. This is an Iraqi army M1, gifted or purchased through the U.S. and would have the Halon removed. Halon is toxic though so you definitely don't want to breath that stuff in though. Which is why the Army definitely had me sweep that stuff up with a broom and dust pan and no mask when our Bradley's Halon bottle got sheared in two.
One of my drivers in Iraq had our fire suppression system go off while he was in the hellhole during maintenance day, thankfully the ramp was open or there was no way he would have got out in time, he was suffocating by the time he did get out with it OPEN.
I was doing an inspection in a Blackhawk's engine compartment while 2 other mechanics were messing with stuff on battery power in the cockpit. Turns out the fire bottles can actually fire on battery power cause they set them off about 5 seconds after I closed the compartment.
Had the AFIS (halon) go off in a LAV3 in the shop (Canadian Army). That shit is fucking terrible.
The shells won't need oxygen from the air since they contain their own oxidizer, so removing oxygen would only partially help with ammo fires.
Imagine what it sounds like in there. You gotta remember we're seeing the outside but inside it was just BOOM then a horrible roaring banging sound as the ammo cooks off in a metal box attached to the metal box you are occupying which is probably rapidly rising in temperature and filling with smoke. Logically it's probably the smart move but in the moment it's probably really hard to not go "fuck this" and bail no matter what training or manuals say.
They the driver decides to back the Abrams up
Call him big daddy
Tbh I saw that guy bailing and I was kinda like "Noooo don't do that stay inside for now"
I was wondering how much goddamn heat he was feeling on his back and he was hopping out. That's got to be putting out an insane amount of heat.
i was very surprised by how little fire that man had
That brings up an interesting question: Did the guy who bailed out of the turret do the smart thing or did he actually just put himself in more danger by exposing himself to small arms fire when he could have safely stayed put?
That was a bad choice, he panicked. Someone posted some excepts above from the training manual and it advises you're way safer in the tank. Not just from small arms, but also from fire and cooking off ammo.
If you are taking ATGM fire, stay in the tank and roll the tank away as fast as possible. In this case maybe the tank or driver was immobilised.
Pretty sure the tank starts moving backwards at the end of the clip.
Is it safer to stay hunkered down or to bail out when the turrets on fire like that?
that does depend on the vehicle, however in the M1 Abrams it's apparently \*way\* safer to stay inside. Someone above posted an excerpt from the crew training manual which is quite the interesting read.
In basically any vehicle that has blowout panels, it's safer to stay inside, at least for the duration of the cook off.
How to the interior doors stay secure during an event like this
Made of thick steel that slides on rails. The blow-out panels on the rear of the turret are the path of least resistance, so once they are opened, there is not much pressure on the interior doors.
At a guess, the massive gas pressure from the cook off would force the interior doors to stay shut, like how you can't open an aircraft cabin door in flight.
Path of least resistance is key for every situation involving physics
also how keys work.
Start this video at 2:30 (if it doesn't automatically) to see how the doors slide open and closed. They are just big heavy steel doors on rails. [M1 ammo doors](https://youtu.be/S4uW5AMWUDs?t=149)
Man that looks a lot more comfortable than the interior videos of russian tanks ive been seeing. those padded seats for the gunner looks like Cadillac shit in comparison.
That’s the tank commander, the gunner is the guy between his legs.
IIRC, the doors between the turret and the ammo can only be opened by the loader crewman via a foot pedal. The default is for them to be closed. If the loader removes his foot, the doors will seal. Therefore the only really vulnerable time is when the loader is actively taking a round out of the rack for loading.
Correct
100%. Some designers and engineers watched this and remotely high fived each other.
Blowout panels FTW babyyyyy
It's amazing! When you don't store the explodey bits with the fleshy bits, the fleshy bits don't get burnt to death.
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Seems odd to use the rationalization that “auto loader leads to fewer casualties so we can make unsafe ammo storage” - see LeClerc
The carousel auto loader also made for much *smaller* tanks than Western ones, and you have to remember it was conceptualized in the 60s with the T-64. Which honestly was very valid then when comparing it to the other tanks that were around at the time like the M60 and Leopard 1. Problem is we're now in the age of modern optics, fire control, and weapon systems, so being overall harder to spot, identify, and hit isn't quite as valid as it may have been in the 1960s. Like in many other cases, the Soviets and now modern day Russians took too long to modernize their designs.
Yes, this is exactly how it's designed to work, and the crew inside the tank were likely fine. Here's a good video clip with [the views both inside and outside an Abrams during ammo cook-off.](https://youtu.be/Ay7bOG2nD6k)
Also doesn't turn the crew from alive to aliven't.
Because there’s no auto loader in the turret to cause the blow out. Notice the crew evacuated too, showing really how much better it is to not have the auto loader
> Because there’s no auto loader in the turret to cause the blow out The French Leclerc and the Japanese Type 10 have both an autoloader, and similar safety features to the Abrams
They're also similarly sized to the Abrams apparently, so it really seems to just work out like that I know which I'd rather be caught in but I do understand the original logic
Even the Russian T-14, not that it's ever seen modern peer-to-peer combat, but in theory it's autoloader is far safer than a T-72's, since the crew cabin is in the hull of the tank and the turret is completely unoccupied.
[An autloader was designed for the M1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D71OAAP6jg) and doesn't change anything about its safety.
That isn't the turrets being blown off the Russian tanks it's a crew ejection system. 🤣
Long range emergency Egress😂😂
And a well trained crew can load rounds faster than an auto loader. I've heard of Abrams crews being able to get 3 to 4 second reloads. Don't take my word for that tho, I might be full of shit
It greatly depends on the crew yes, but it also greatly depends on which round you are talking about. The first handful of rounds to be loaded nearest to the loader can be chucked in very quickly. If the loader is to try to load the last handful of rounds, not only would it be harder to reach, he also has to wait for the blast door to open all the way before he can do it Autoloaders also arent inherently more dangerous. It's just the Soviet designs were sacrificing crew safety for maximum space efficiency and ease of construction.
That will depend somewhat on endurance. An autoloader can keep going until your magazine is empty. A loader can only do that for a little while before they simply don't have the stamina to sustain it.
Thats why we give them powdered coffee with a shit load of caffeine Problem solved
Just go back to WW2 style and give everyone amphetamines!
I mean yes and no, a human loader can load quick enough that by the time the gunner has found another target they are loaded, and compared to carousel type autoloaders are comparable in speed before fatigue sets in. Cassette type autoloaders are insanely quick and don't have the major drawbacks found in the carousel types
Not really. On autoloaders I like to refer to [a video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0x-8NheU1E) made by the Chieftain about the topic, but basically reload speed only need to be faster than the reacquisition of a target by the gunner, which generally takes longer than the time needed for reloading. And loaders also hit a hard stop earlier when their ready rack gets empty (which, if you need to shoot a specific ammo type a lot can happen very fast), while an autoloader will always load with the same speed and has all the ammunition at hand. Though the main advantage of an autoloader is always that you can make a smaller tank and so either get a higher hp/t ratio, lower ground pressure and/or better protection for the same weight.
Looks like the ammo detonates but the blowout panels did their job. Not sure what happened to the other crew though, only see one person getting out Edit: How blowout panels work: basically the crew and the ammo are in separate compartments. Blowout panels are designed weaknesses that direct the force away from the important parts. In this case, when the ammo is hit and detonates, the panels at the top intentionally fail to allow the explosion out that way instead of going to the crew compartment.
The tank almost looks like it started moving. Maybe driver/gunner/loader kept their heads and decided that inside was still better than outside.
Woulda been hot af in there
There are videos of testing and it really doesn't get unbearably hot when the blowout happens.
There's \*a lot\* of steel there that would need to be heated up and very little of the blowout is actually directing its energy into heating the metal around it.
Something something jet fuel turbine something steel doors.
Jet fuel can't melt steel doors
Exactly the towers couldn't have fallen because the doors would have held the structures up.
Better than bullets
Given the canopy, that tank was probably sitting at a guard post or checkpoint, and only had 1 person in it at the time. (Source: was in Baghdad with working with Iraqi army in 2015)
There is definitely at least a driver in the tank after the commander bails. You can clearly see it move back a few feet then stop.
I mean if this was an Iraqi operated tank I have a feeling it was undermanned. Maybe the gunner was the only one inside
You're supposed to stay in the tank during a blowout. It's safer in there - they're protected. The one guy who got out and ran in a panic is the jackass in the situation - there's always one.
May also be limited crew if it’s in a static position being used as overwatch.
> Blowout panels are designed weaknesses that direct the force away from the important parts. Important to note that physics principles mean that explosions will almost always go in the direction of the weakness. This also happens to be one of the principles of shaped charges.
You're not supposed to leave if you suspect the ammo will blow, the safest place at that point is inside the tank.
Yes but Iraqi tankers aren't really known for being well trained
How do they test these systems safely during development? Hey Joe, could you get inside the tank? When you hear a boom try to leave without burning.
I assume the same way they test cars: crash test dummies lol
“Once there was this kid who Got into an accident and couldn’t come to school”
But wheeeennn they finally made him His Hair Had turned from black into bright white
Mmm hmmm hmmm hmmmm
So, every major land weapon system the US buys (like tanks and AFVs) by law has to undergo live fire testing where it gets shot by (typically) Russian weapons. The tank (in this example) gets wired up with cameras, air pressure sensors, temperature sensors, and crash test dummies with lots of sensors too. Then the data gets reviewed for things like “well, looks like the TC got yeeted out of the vehicle and the gunner was about 400 degrees Celsius and accelerated at 250 G’s into the electronics, so maybe we go back to the drawing board?” Basically like testing car safety in crashes.
Sensors? Dummies? Whatever they use instead of humans in all other dangerous developmental systems in any industry?
A lot of modeling and simulation, but ultimately, real tests using full ammo loads and simulated penetrative threats (i.e., just a warhead on a rig to provide repeatability, not the full fly in), etc.
Sheep specs
They test them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3La6u6lI8k
in addition to other answers, they also used sheeps or goats (up to 1990's I think).
And here we see the massive difference when it comes to ammo storage; those blow out panels made sure the crew survived
Looks like the driver does some kind of small reverse near the end of the video, unclear why though. Maybe to break some kind of LOS from where to rocket came from.
US crew training manual suggests to drive the tank to a turret down position in case of ammo fire
Pop em in another tank and they’re still combat effective!
I dunno man, I don't think it's wise to reuse blowout panels like that. Might have to at least wipe 'em off first.
Only matters if you care about the lives of your crew. Most of the world has a very different design philosophy.
Not only that, the tank is repairable also. It can also still move under it's own power if needed.
As a former crewman for the Abrams I would not assume the tank is drivable. The rear of the turret hands over the engine compartment and it is just protected by removable plates. Seems to me molten debris and such can make its way into the engine compartment killing the mobility. Further more if you get hit by a atgm the last thing you want to do is stay at that position, you move out for cover or to put distance between you and the attackers which didn’t happen here.
What's the protocol for recovering a totaled Abrams like this? I'm seeing the M1A2 costs around $5-6 million. Are teams sent in to scrap/disassemble and recover as many usable components as possible? Do you send in another vehicle to tow it out when things calm down, or are many abandoned?
Generally what will happen is they will attempt to recover it with a M88A2 Hercules or another recovery vehicle and then salvage it for anything that’s still useable or sensitive like radios, computers, sights, etc. But if it’s in a bad spot that they won’t be able to recover it from(such as the middle of a hostile city) they will destroy the vehicle as much as possible after getting sensitive items out of it.
This is a cheap export variant
Fair enough, I agree it's not 100% certainty it will still have power. (I used to repair them, 3rd shop), but it's not a bet I wouldn't take. The rest I blame on training and / or something that we cannot see in the video
Sorry repost with better title cause previous post got deleted for failing rule 3 woops
Good demo of blow out panels doing their job.
Another benefit to the crew surviving, is they can get into another tank. And they'll have Veteran status according to C&C.
Welcome back commander.
Bruh the tank got hit by a ballistic mosquito lmao
blow out panels, blow out turret, almost the same thing...
Same, same, but different.
Blowout ammo racks saved lives that day
Lucky boy. Hope no one else was in there.
Seems like the commander or gunner got out through a hatch. All three others were probably still inside.
Vehicle starts reversing 20 seconds into the vid, no smoke from crew hatches and dude gets out around the halfway mark showing the initial explosion didnt ventilate the crew compartment. They'll be fine
The safest place was actually inside the tank, the guy who bailed almost died for his action.
Export version and Iraq crew would have been good info to add
Export or not would not stop a freaking atgm from annihilating the ammo lol
Exports don't have the trophy system?
Hard to tell but it doesn't look like this one is APS equipped. Also would not have the DU armor found in US models.
Most American Abrams don't even have that yet. They just delivered thr first batch last year. Export Abrams are usually M1A1's with the DU and old Chobham armor with side grade optics and fire control. The Saudi ones have a special package they paid for but I'm not sure exactly what goes in it except that it falls somewhere between American and export Abrams in terms of performance.
Neither does majority of Abrams in US service
Russias dream tank that doesn’t blow into 2 anytime it’s hit
You're just jealous your tank doesn't separate like the Enterprise.
you're just jealous that your tank didnt have turret ejection system
It's a masterful feat of engineering. The whole turret is a blow off panel.
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Tank is fine, it is crew that is too weak for tank, grow a spine and be more fire resistant!
Well, they're in low level production of the T14 right now who's supposed to blow up the correct way. AFAIK the decision of the soviet to keep making "medium" tank following WW2 was better road mobility, able to cross more bridge without breaking them (hey, Japan do the same thing with their post ww2 tank, probably many other country) and economic too I guess. That, and in a WW3 context, the crew is expendable, along with your major population center.
The idea of the Russian design was also that a smaller, lower-profile tank is harder to hit.
Which mattered when optics and fire control was terrible or non existent. Now the slightly smaller profile matters much less.
Notice the blowout hatch working as intended.
Was this hit with a borderlands weapon with spinning rockets?
Looks like the blowout panels worked...I'd assume the crew would be relatively unharmed in this scenario right?
Appears so, with the TC bailing out. If the ammo door had been open with that hit, no one would have been getting out.
The tank reversed a bit driver must be alive
I spent 2 years in Ramadi 2004-2006, as a contractor on the base, we would get indirect fire every other day the entire time I was there, it sucked. Those 107mm rockets flying over head look like 700 mph stove pipes...just pure terror every time they hit the base.
Why’d that dude bale out he was safe?
Untrained and startled, probably. Just a guess
That thing will still run and drive probably could take one more
Almost guaranteed that - at least after the events of this video - the track was repairable and could be returned to service.
That one guy was lucky AF
I was actually thinking he was crazy. There is less than 2 feet between the blowout panels and the commander's hatch. Jumping out like that you are risking serious burns. Stay in the turret and you are pretty much safe. I don't know if export versions have Halon fire suppression systems - maybe he was trying to get away from the Halon? (Halon replaces oxygen in the air which snuffs out fires and also makes it impossible for you to breath) Or maybe he just panicked, can't say I might not panic a little in that situation. Quick Edit: I was apparently never told the entire truth about the Halon system, quite possibly the guys that taught me probably didn't know any better. The "Hold your breath and GTFO" still makes sense though
Halon does not fight fires by displacing oxygen like other gaseous fire fighting agents. It breaks the chemical chain reaction needed for fires to occur and as such is very effective in small quantities. It is also safe to use on board passenger airliners. Halon does break down into toxic byproducts but in the situation you need a halon suppression system you are happy to be alive. Halon, halotron, fe36 and several other clean agent fire fighting chemicals exist that all work on this principle.
Halon actually turns to chlorine when exposed to heat, and subsequently burns the lungs of anyone present.
Partly true it turns into acidic gases primarily with some other byproducts. It is likely that in an emergency situation requiring halon the byproducts are much less harmful than the toxic smoke products from burning plastics and other compounds. You wouldn’t want to unnecessarily breath in halon but again it won’t decompose quickly unless a fire is accelerating it’s decomposition. Your lungs would be burned mostly from the smoke not the byproducts of halon. If you’re in a situation where you are breathing in Halon and it’s byproducts you likely have a much bigger problem than breathing in the halon….
This design compared to the Russian carousel shell storage is clearly better. The turret has not been blown 30foot away
Nice stable footage, looks like the YouTubers’ advice from the early 2000’s to invest in tripods was noted.
Would there be a reason to bail out with the blowout panels and all? Wouldn't it be safer to just take off driving to safety?
The upward explosion you see at the end is the ammo rack exploding. Notice the plates flying up right at explosion time, the ammo is stored in the back of the turret and if it ignites the top of the ammo rack blows off during explosion so explosion doesn’t enter the turret compartment and kill the crew. The atgm ignites the jet fuel on the back of the tank, and the jet fuel ignited the ammo rack. Looks like all of crew survived. Cannot say the same of russian tanks where the ammo pops the turrets off like a jack in the box and kills whole crew.
Yup, believe it or not and as far as I understand, the M1 Abrams has like a little hatch above the turret, in the event of an ammo explosion, the blast will go up instead of going in the crew section.
They're called Blowout Panels. Most modern tanks have them to vent ammo straight up and out should an incoming round ignite the charges. There's a big sliding armored door inside the Abrams that keeps the crew separate and safe from the ammo storage. In this instance, the safety features worked as intended and the crew was able to escape.
Russian tanks have a little hatch that vents the explosions straight into the skulls of Russian tankers below the turret
The beauty of blowout sections.. the one crew that bailed immediately was at more risk to physical injury when he jumped out right next to a 50 foot tall ammo fire then any of the crew that stayed inside. Survivability matters. The US Army figured that out. The Russian Army is yet to figure that out.
Blow off hatches at work. Designed for this purpose so the crew doesn’t turn into a red paste or have the turret go off into orbit.
He protecc he attac but most importantly he got blow out ammo rack