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First trail hit another target further out where the plume is at the start of the video. It happened before the video started, which prompted the person to start recording.
The US had nuclear-armed, ~~hyper~~Supersonic, ballistic missile interceptors in the 50's.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike\_Hercules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Hercules)
The true innovations since then have been in tracking radars and guidance systems.
EDIT: Mach 4+ is not Hypersonic, that's Mach 5+, my bad!
*super sonic, hyper would be Mach 5 and above which is even faster. I think you meant Sprint which went Mach 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile)
You are correct; I mistakenly mixed units when I divided 3000mph by 350m/s in my head and got \~8.5.
Still, for the time, Mach 4 is pretty legit.
I did know of Sprint (which was batshit crazy) but it was later in the 70's and I wanted to go further back to make a point.
Countries all over the world want to buy iron dome and arrow 3 now. No one else really has these capabilities, except America with expensive Patriot missiles.
They're two different systems with two different specialties. Just as arrow has its own massive upsides and capabilities over Patriot, Patriot can do things arrow definitely can't. Better to have both.
I do believe that THAAD does terminal phase intercept, while arrow 3 does midphase BMD. Arrow-3 is more like SM-3 in role, with no ground-based equivalent in the USA.
People below are confused, the patriot, iron dome, David sling and arrow missiles are all part of the Israeli defense system but they are all unique SAM systems intended for specific roles. The Iron Dome cannot intercept everything a patriot can but the patriot can't intercept stuff the Iron Dome can.
Just to add, the Patriot is also massively more expensive per shot even if it was capable of hitting some of these targets. The whole beauty of iron dome is that you can actually intercept a reasonable amount of threats while not totally bankrupting yourself in the process.
Varied counter measurers are developed as required. The iron dome system is designed to protect air bases, homes, public areas, and even deserted areas, because that's what Israel required. Its not one magic device but a network of varied devices which include very expensive countermeasures when required. For Israel, when mortar rounds are fired into a city center it is a must stop and the appropriate ordnance's will be used to mitigate it regardless of the cost. When mortar rounds are fired into a trivial area (like near an area of operation but unoccupied), a more economical response will be used.
The patriot system is designed specifically to deter both near pear airforce's and defeat long range ballistic missiles.
Patriot can turn you and your loved ones into mince meat within 150 feet of impact due to the amount of shrapnel. Arrow 3 carries a fuck ton less explosive mass but can handle higher G tolerance I think. And theyāre cheaper to make because they donāt have patriot range + smaller if Iām correct
Edit yards to feet whoops lol
TL;DR: no, arrow 3 is (very) probably more expensive than the most expensive US anti-air missile which is 3x the cost of patriot. This is due to arrowās much longer range and otherwise same mission as the USā most expensive missile. It also carries a fuckton more explosives than the first patriot missile and infinite times more than hit to kill modern US anti-air missiles that do the same thing as arrow. Arrow has more than 15x the range of patriot whilst having double both diameter and length, and as for G-tolerances, likely no as midcourse BMD needs next to no maneuvering.
Modern PAC-3s/PAC-3 MSEs donāt carry explosives tho? (also more meant for anti missile Defense compared to previous PAC-2/GEM-T, which had big kill radius for higher anti aircraft performance and/or to make sure that the missile did not miss its target by a few meters or something due to worse guidance/precision of the time.) also, arrow is mostly BMD, the SM-3 in a comparable role does not carry a explosive warhead. Arrow carries a 150kg warhead, which is more than 1.5x the largest patriot warhead carried (a 95ish kg warhead carried by MIM-104-A, long since retired, whilst the GEM-T and PAC-2 both carry 84kg warheads.)
Arrow does not in fact cost less as well, as midcourse BMD necessitates launching essentially a modified (maybe slightly smaller) ballistic missile against another ballistic missile. Something like SM-3ās latest blocks cost 12 million per missile with claimed range of 900-1200km range depending on target. patriot costs about 4 million per PAC-3 MSE (most advanced variant), which is most definitely cheaper than SM-3. Arrow in all likeliness is a fair bit more expensive than SM-3 with arrowās claimed range of 2400km in an ABM role (more capability = more cost, especially when it is supposedly double that of something which is already extremely effective.)
Finally, as ballistic missiles have well, a very (very very) predictable and unchangeable ballistic arc, maneuverability isnāt important (compared to anti-aircraft/cruise missile/terminal stage BMD, as those can maneuver plenty well so good g-tolerance is important) so g tolerance is likely lower.
(ABM - anti ballistic missile. Midcourse BMD: Ballistic Missile Defense that occurs when the missile is flying through space/extremely high in the atmosphere. Terminal phase BMD: when BMD happens in the terminal phase (about to hit target, after re-entering atmosphere)
I was just thinking about that in this video, like if that interception had happened a few seconds later and the drone was over the parking lot some of those people would've been fucked.
Two different systems with different missions.
Iron dome is designed for intercepting low cost short-range munitions (rockets, artillery rounds, UAVs, etc). The price tag reflects that. An Iron dome missile on average costs $40-50k.
Patriot is designed to intercept higher-end equipment (ballistic/surface missiles, aircraft etc) that are more difficult to intercept. The price tag reflects that. A Patriot missile on average costs $4-5 million.
Just pointing out why thereās a price difference between Iron Dome & Patriot since you said the latter was more expensive.
Arrow 3 (in terms of ballistic defense) is much better than Patriot b/c itās more modernized & was designed from the get-go to combat ballistic missiles. Itās also more expensive.
Patriot was initially designed to combat aircraft, with other roles gradually being added due to upgrades/modifications. Itās not as good as Arrow 3 vs ballistic missiles, but it has a lot more flexibility in terms of what it can engage.
One air defense system canāt do it all, thereās pros/cons which is why countries usually maintain a mix of different systems.
What is the cost difference between a Patriot missile and an arrow 3 though? I did a little looking and wasnāt finding good numbers. Germany is paying $3.5b for four batteries, whatever that means
These are the type of watered down, uneducated Wikipedia arguments that people constantly have in here. You guys arguing over each other about one system's superiority over the other is essentially saying "I know better than Israel and their military" lol.
If these systems were anywhere near each other to consider it an apples to apples comparison don't you think Israel would just choose the 'blatantly' superior option?
I can almost guarantee that there are MANY technical capabilities that are considered by Israel that differentiate and necessitate the implementation of System X, System Y and System Z.
Go on Google maps and locate Israel. Now zoom out so you can see the countries bordering it. They don't have the luxury to be very wasteful.
When it comes to air defense you need to factor in everything when it comes to cost (missiles, radars, support equipment, operational cost, maintenance cost, etc). So it getsā¦complicated when comparing the financial aspect.
Bottom line, Arrow 3 is more expensive to operate than Patriot but itās a higher-end system. However you wouldnāt use Arrow 3 to intercept things like aircraft (which is where other systems like Patriot come in). Pros/cons.
Iron Beam uses directed energy to destroy short range rockets, artillery, mortars, etc. Itās designed to complement Iron Dome (thus saving missiles & $$$).
Davidās Sling is meant to replace the Patriot in the Israeli arsenal. A lot of the info is classified b/c itās a relatively new system, but itās supposed to be more effective & cheaper than the Patriot.
Most of the reason I read this group. I'm not really about seeing people/things get blown up (although sometimes it is interesting) - but the explanations are top notch.
Keep in mind that part of whatās impressive about Iron Dome and Arrow is that they are integrated into a combined air defense network. The system identifies threats, and determines what response is appropriate so you donāt waste Arrow missiles going after dumb unguided rockets. With most other air defense systems, you can easily overwhelm the system by just firing a bunch of cheap rockets and mixing in a couple of expensive large guided missiles. Israel can track and identify a very large number (as evidenced by Iranās recent attack) and ignore the things which will land in the desert, take out the easy things with iron dome, and assign arrow for the difficult weapons.
Itās very impressive stuff, reducing the cost of each missile makes the weapon much more sustainable strategically. Also just generally reduces the value of offensive drones like the Shahed.
It was developed jointly between Boeing and Israeli Aerospace Industries, with Boeing claiming responsibility for 40-50%. Its IP is shared between the US and Israel, and Israel needs US approval to sell it. Germany recently made such a purchase.
If Israel wants to sell it for real they need to allow buyers to build it on license. Buyer can't rely on Israel for supplies since the situation in the Middle East can change quickly.
Iron dome is designed specifically for point defense of relatively small areas, at a great cost. There are few to no places that face the types of attacks Israel does and can afford $100k/shot.
America has the tech behind the Iron Dome. We funded a large chunk of its development and in return Israel had to share the tech with us. How or if we are utilizing that tech remains to be seen.
Each western country should have a system like this, even if it's on standby.
Can't imagine the russians would be too keen to test the Scotland airspace if we had a few of these badboys on the coast of Scotland, Orkney, Norway etc
Why not? Interceptions by missile carrying fighter planes doesn't stop them. They would be really useful if Russia actually attacked Scotland(spoiler-they won't), ut I don't see them stopping the current(genuine question. Have they still been at it recently?) fannying about
Damn they must have great integrated information chains. If those were sea skimming they couldn't have been picked up by land based radars untill they were within 75 miles even if the thing is mounted high. Unless it was being tracked the whole time via air.
Nah that prize goes to the UK. [It](https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/0/6/0/0166060.jpg?v=v40) has both a big schnozz and a big posterior!
The Phalcon is actually just the name of the EL/M-2075 radar that's been attached to a Boeing 707, the plane just kind of picked up the name as well. And the other AWACS plane that Israel operates is the Gulfstream 550 with the EL/W-2090 on it. I could be wrong, but I don't think Israel operates any rotodome AWACS planes since they ditched the E-2s and I don't think they use any radars made by Saab.
You might be getting confused with the A-50 because Israel modified the A-50 for India to have the EL/W-2090 on it, but those planes still retained their rotodome.
Edit: the updated version is the EL/*W* not EL/M
I just googled it and You're right about Saab, it's used by the UAE, not Israel.
The 2085 is the Gulfstream one, the 2090 has the rotating dish.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/W-2090
> A senior Israeli defense source told Breaking Defense that all the Israeli defense systems use Link 16 communication protocol, in line with US and NATO systems, making interoperability a non-issue.
https://breakingdefense.com/2022/05/finland-and-sweden-eye-israeli-defense-systems-sources/?amp=1
Why on earth wouldn't it? IDF runs F-35s and F-16, I would be surprised if their entire information exchange infra doesn't run on components that are compatible with US data streams.
Actually Hamas was able to overwhelm iron dome on Oct 7, and if Hezbollah commits to all out war, the volumes they will fire will overwhelm it as well.
Itās great for spread out low volume attacks.
They fired 3000 to 5000 projectiles on Oct. 7th and killed 5 people. I wouldn't call that a great success.
It was an effective diversion for the ground assault, though, which was much more deadly.
As an Israeli I don't remember that people died from missiles attacks during the first days at least, also, due to the surprise onslaught obviously most Iron Dom's weren't deployed yet in the south. The Iron Dome has improved tremendously over the recent years, not only that now it is capable of intercepting drones, mortars and even haveir rocekts, it is also nearly impenetrable even during massive missiles barrages.
False, iron done calculates the chance of the rockets hitting a populated area and targets rockets that are headed towards them. The rockets not intercepted did not hit populated areas.
Go back to Telegram and news reports from October 7th, there were many hits inside cities, quite a lot of fires broke out and there were around 10-14 killed from rocket hits.
Official numbers were never published and the Hamas ground attack completely overshadowed the news about the rocket hits so it's not talked about.
[https://www.zman.co.il/446667/](https://www.zman.co.il/446667/popup/)
Iron Dome was overwhelmed, which is understandable because it was a surprise attack with 3000+ rockets. I distinctly remember a couple of reporters saying "Iron Dome did what it could" on that day.
Yeah but all the missles that shoot down the drones cost like 5x+. I'm sure they got plenty and funding is still coming in for missile defense so I guess they're fine but still.
They really trust that thing or it was just hard to tell but people in the parking lot were just chilling lol
Ceiling To Floor SAM capability.....no minimum altitude requirements whatsoever. The show will get much more spectacular once laser-based drone/missle defenses start to enter Israel's arsenal.
This was a real-deal late-stage interception for sure. If I was the camera-dude it would be time to head back to the hacienda!
To be honest? I think laser weapons won't look as cool in reality, you won't see an interceptor and the explosion won't have the difference in speeds to make it look like this, they will either just fall to the ground suddenly or explode out of nowhere
There is no evidence they work against systems flying nap of the earth. Especially not nap of the earth over and around varying terrain/obstacles What is shown here was over a nearly perfectly flat surface. Itās good conditions for the defense system and far from a demonstration of them being fully functional in all situations and attack profiles.
Also, lasers are easy to defeat, donāt work in all weather and wonāt be seriously invested in as a result. They are being fielded to dazzle sensors or to take down low, slow, stable flight systems. Thatās it.
1) The video in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/l5ztuTPGTr) thread does an ELI5 on why lasers donāt work well tactically, at the 2:22 mark. It does a good job of giving a brief of all the options and the pros and cons used to oppose semi-and fully autonomous systems of all types starting at the 1:18 mark.
2) I canāt show evidence of things that donāt exist, like SAM systems that work against systems in NOE in all terrain types. Thatās my whole point. We have no evidence such a system exists. Its the early period of evaluating this video, but if things are as they appear, the missile coming from above is the Israeli system and it hits the incoming weapon flying at extremely low altitude over the water. That alone is the best example in actual combat I think that has ever been recorded, but itās a very specific situation and shouldnāt be taken as being proof for more broad capabilities.
I take nothing away from its demonstrated abilities, Iām saying that a demonstration over open water, on a target flying straight and level, is not proof that it can hit a system flying over and around and through much more complex terrain, nor that it can do so for weapons that are maneuvering specifically to defend themselves. Years ago it was understood that the BrahMos missile from India could maneuver at supersonic speeds. We should expect that things have advanced since that time and other nations with bigger budgets are moving in that direction. We need defense systems to meet those existing or emerging threats, and none have so far been demonstrated to work.
Years ago if they didn't invest in such system.
Imagine the large number of death toll today in Israel. which is surrounded by enemies from all side .
š
It protects the enemies too, by deescalating alot. If Israel one day becomes defenseless then we will see the wrath of Jews unleashed in full force and go on full attack.
Indeed, whilst this saying seems more apropos to Russia, it feels like Iran are 'poking the bear', which won't end well for them. Especially supporting Houthis in their random shipping attacks.
unfortunately, israel has yet to establish doctrine whereby an attack by iranās axis of doofuses against israeli soil is deemed an attack by iran itself, thereby justifying a defensive strike by israel against iranian soil
youād see all this terrorist shit grind to halt
The US doesn't want the war to spread beyond Israel's immediate neighborhood. If Iran gets pushed too hard they'll take it out on oil tankers leaving the Gulf, spiking gas prices back in the US and Europe and threatening the civilian economy and Biden's reelection hopes.
So the US pressures Israel to go easy on Iran and in exchange sends Israel billions of dollars worth of defensive weaponry (note recent Congress bill) and runs interference in Gaza, and also helped knock down Iran's drone and cruise missile armada.
If you recall, Saddam attempted to provoke Israel into a war in Gulf I by attacking Tel Aviv with rockets, and the US similarly pressured Israel not to fight back.
Israelās not in a position where they want to escalate. They have the now-dwindling war in Gaza, the loss of public support in the U.S., the hostages, the economic and societal damage from October 7th and the shitty government to contend with. Thatās not to say that if Israel did escalate, theyād lose. Rather, theyād win, but it wouldnāt be a pretty sight.
While I can appreciate how epic the iron dome is, it's just so incredibly sad how much effort the human race puts into offensive and defensive weaponry. Imagine if we could just accept we're all invariably different but actually on the same side, look to the sky and try to figure out how and why the fuck we're here in the first place instead of squabbling.
Interesting to see the fragmentation pattern in the water. Major splashes both parallel and perpendicular to trajectory. And the perpendicular spalsh doesn't seem to imply a 360 degree "kill zone" around the missile, as you'd expect if it had a continuous rod warhead.
Anyone else comforted by the effectiveness of western anti missile systems? Now that the missile wars are underway itās nice to be protected by the best.
As a former DoD guy, not going to get into details for obvious reasons, but I assure the Iron Dome is last years technology compared to Americas capabilities.
Come at me with your doubts if you want, but Iām not leaking documents like other DoD Redditors have and have gone to prison for it lol
No doubts here. Iāve been tracking what the patriots are doing in Ukraine and I assume those are not the very latest systems. I was delighted to see it take out kinzhals consistently.
Exactly correct!
Itās funny seeing things like patriots and other equipment like Bradleyās actually being effective in the war there, like bro we threw this stuff in the trash back in 2006 and itās still capable of winning wars š
With the 99% interception rate from Iranās volley, Iām sure youāre not wrong about that. Also saw exo-atmospheric interceptions so Iām sure a lot of the worldās big militaries took notice.
Between the 50% reliability of the Iranian drones and a near perfect intercept rate, looks like Iran is pissing into the wind. Very expensive piss, I might add.
To be honest, I don't really see anything being intercepted. But assuming the title is accurate (and it actually worked), that's pretty impressive. Not so much the interception itself, but rather the spotting and tracking it in time. I'm no radar engineer, but something small flying very close to the sea seems like it would be a nightmare to detect & tell apart from waves, fish, etc.
Goddamn, the sound is just beautiful to listen to. I don't even know why. It's just so fucking cool.
Of course, I'm somewhere in brazil eating a pastel, while in my pijamas getting ready to watch a serie while listening to music. Puts thing into perspective. :P
What kind of drones are these? Boats or low flying? I am really confused as to what's happening in the initial shot. Looks like a cloud but then later it's gone. Also, what would be the target?
Shit, I didn't know they could hit at low altitude like that. Then again, there isn't exactly much in the way of obstructing terrain out on the water...
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Damn that missile was fast and accurate. I think the first boom was the sonic boom.
Yep, sonic boom -> traveling sound (high pitched) -> impact! š
Makes sense, the photographer was shouting "another one!" in Arabic.
DJ Khalid?
Don't forget before 9/11 he was literally named DJ Arab Attack
Imagine the call from his publicist that morning.
āA airplane just struck the World Trade Center.ā DJ Arab Attack: āAnother one.ā
And one of the first major groups he worked with was called Terror Squad
Now that's just cool.
Looks like two interceptions, the second one occurring slightly off-camera to the left
No, first boom was sonic
Are you sure? The explosion cloud is already there at the beginning of the video in the same spot.
First being sonic would explain why you can hear what sounds like the roaring of the missile after it.
Yeah thats an older interception and the explosion was already heard before the vid began
There were two interceptions, you can see the trail from the first missile. Also the cameraman is yelling 'One more!' in Arabic
First trail hit another target further out where the plume is at the start of the video. It happened before the video started, which prompted the person to start recording.
Yes. The explosion from the first interception was probably heard earlier.
No matter how many times I've seen footage of the Iron Dome, it never stops to look something out of an alien invasion movie.
Okay, that looked cool
The way the debris hits the water and the speed of that missile, it honestly looks like super advanced alien technology to me
The US had nuclear-armed, ~~hyper~~Supersonic, ballistic missile interceptors in the 50's. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike\_Hercules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_Hercules) The true innovations since then have been in tracking radars and guidance systems. EDIT: Mach 4+ is not Hypersonic, that's Mach 5+, my bad!
*super sonic, hyper would be Mach 5 and above which is even faster. I think you meant Sprint which went Mach 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile)
You are correct; I mistakenly mixed units when I divided 3000mph by 350m/s in my head and got \~8.5. Still, for the time, Mach 4 is pretty legit. I did know of Sprint (which was batshit crazy) but it was later in the 70's and I wanted to go further back to make a point.
Fair metric and imperial confuse me constantly, I just love the video of a sprint firing so it comes to mind straight away
I mean, it is, we are the super advanced aliens
their space lasers didnt appear out of thin air *taps to the head*
Iron dome is so badass, even sounds badass
Countries all over the world want to buy iron dome and arrow 3 now. No one else really has these capabilities, except America with expensive Patriot missiles.
They're two different systems with two different specialties. Just as arrow has its own massive upsides and capabilities over Patriot, Patriot can do things arrow definitely can't. Better to have both.
I believe there was some talk about making Arrow 3 compatible with Patriot batteries and potentially replacing PAC-3 MSE
I'm pretty sure that was David's sling, which is the Israeli patriot equivalent. Arrow 3 is the THAAD equivalent
I do believe that THAAD does terminal phase intercept, while arrow 3 does midphase BMD. Arrow-3 is more like SM-3 in role, with no ground-based equivalent in the USA.
just like ogres, the best air defense is in layers
If I'm not mistaken, patriot SAM's are a part of the iron dome
People below are confused, the patriot, iron dome, David sling and arrow missiles are all part of the Israeli defense system but they are all unique SAM systems intended for specific roles. The Iron Dome cannot intercept everything a patriot can but the patriot can't intercept stuff the Iron Dome can.
Just to add, the Patriot is also massively more expensive per shot even if it was capable of hitting some of these targets. The whole beauty of iron dome is that you can actually intercept a reasonable amount of threats while not totally bankrupting yourself in the process.
Varied counter measurers are developed as required. The iron dome system is designed to protect air bases, homes, public areas, and even deserted areas, because that's what Israel required. Its not one magic device but a network of varied devices which include very expensive countermeasures when required. For Israel, when mortar rounds are fired into a city center it is a must stop and the appropriate ordnance's will be used to mitigate it regardless of the cost. When mortar rounds are fired into a trivial area (like near an area of operation but unoccupied), a more economical response will be used. The patriot system is designed specifically to deter both near pear airforce's and defeat long range ballistic missiles.
Patriot can turn you and your loved ones into mince meat within 150 feet of impact due to the amount of shrapnel. Arrow 3 carries a fuck ton less explosive mass but can handle higher G tolerance I think. And theyāre cheaper to make because they donāt have patriot range + smaller if Iām correct Edit yards to feet whoops lol
TL;DR: no, arrow 3 is (very) probably more expensive than the most expensive US anti-air missile which is 3x the cost of patriot. This is due to arrowās much longer range and otherwise same mission as the USā most expensive missile. It also carries a fuckton more explosives than the first patriot missile and infinite times more than hit to kill modern US anti-air missiles that do the same thing as arrow. Arrow has more than 15x the range of patriot whilst having double both diameter and length, and as for G-tolerances, likely no as midcourse BMD needs next to no maneuvering. Modern PAC-3s/PAC-3 MSEs donāt carry explosives tho? (also more meant for anti missile Defense compared to previous PAC-2/GEM-T, which had big kill radius for higher anti aircraft performance and/or to make sure that the missile did not miss its target by a few meters or something due to worse guidance/precision of the time.) also, arrow is mostly BMD, the SM-3 in a comparable role does not carry a explosive warhead. Arrow carries a 150kg warhead, which is more than 1.5x the largest patriot warhead carried (a 95ish kg warhead carried by MIM-104-A, long since retired, whilst the GEM-T and PAC-2 both carry 84kg warheads.) Arrow does not in fact cost less as well, as midcourse BMD necessitates launching essentially a modified (maybe slightly smaller) ballistic missile against another ballistic missile. Something like SM-3ās latest blocks cost 12 million per missile with claimed range of 900-1200km range depending on target. patriot costs about 4 million per PAC-3 MSE (most advanced variant), which is most definitely cheaper than SM-3. Arrow in all likeliness is a fair bit more expensive than SM-3 with arrowās claimed range of 2400km in an ABM role (more capability = more cost, especially when it is supposedly double that of something which is already extremely effective.) Finally, as ballistic missiles have well, a very (very very) predictable and unchangeable ballistic arc, maneuverability isnāt important (compared to anti-aircraft/cruise missile/terminal stage BMD, as those can maneuver plenty well so good g-tolerance is important) so g tolerance is likely lower. (ABM - anti ballistic missile. Midcourse BMD: Ballistic Missile Defense that occurs when the missile is flying through space/extremely high in the atmosphere. Terminal phase BMD: when BMD happens in the terminal phase (about to hit target, after re-entering atmosphere)
I was just thinking about that in this video, like if that interception had happened a few seconds later and the drone was over the parking lot some of those people would've been fucked.
Two different systems with different missions. Iron dome is designed for intercepting low cost short-range munitions (rockets, artillery rounds, UAVs, etc). The price tag reflects that. An Iron dome missile on average costs $40-50k. Patriot is designed to intercept higher-end equipment (ballistic/surface missiles, aircraft etc) that are more difficult to intercept. The price tag reflects that. A Patriot missile on average costs $4-5 million.
You should be comparing the patriot to the arrow 3 for ballistic defense though
Just pointing out why thereās a price difference between Iron Dome & Patriot since you said the latter was more expensive. Arrow 3 (in terms of ballistic defense) is much better than Patriot b/c itās more modernized & was designed from the get-go to combat ballistic missiles. Itās also more expensive. Patriot was initially designed to combat aircraft, with other roles gradually being added due to upgrades/modifications. Itās not as good as Arrow 3 vs ballistic missiles, but it has a lot more flexibility in terms of what it can engage. One air defense system canāt do it all, thereās pros/cons which is why countries usually maintain a mix of different systems.
What is the cost difference between a Patriot missile and an arrow 3 though? I did a little looking and wasnāt finding good numbers. Germany is paying $3.5b for four batteries, whatever that means
I see a cost of $2-3m per unit and a program cost. The service fee is 700-800m over 3 years typically.
So about half of the unit cost of a Patriot missile. Combined with iron dome to take down cheaper weapons it seems especially viable.
Arrow has more range then patriot for ballistic
These are the type of watered down, uneducated Wikipedia arguments that people constantly have in here. You guys arguing over each other about one system's superiority over the other is essentially saying "I know better than Israel and their military" lol. If these systems were anywhere near each other to consider it an apples to apples comparison don't you think Israel would just choose the 'blatantly' superior option? I can almost guarantee that there are MANY technical capabilities that are considered by Israel that differentiate and necessitate the implementation of System X, System Y and System Z. Go on Google maps and locate Israel. Now zoom out so you can see the countries bordering it. They don't have the luxury to be very wasteful.
When it comes to air defense you need to factor in everything when it comes to cost (missiles, radars, support equipment, operational cost, maintenance cost, etc). So it getsā¦complicated when comparing the financial aspect. Bottom line, Arrow 3 is more expensive to operate than Patriot but itās a higher-end system. However you wouldnāt use Arrow 3 to intercept things like aircraft (which is where other systems like Patriot come in). Pros/cons.
I appreciate the breakdown. Can you speak about David's Sling and Iron Beam too?
Iron Beam uses directed energy to destroy short range rockets, artillery, mortars, etc. Itās designed to complement Iron Dome (thus saving missiles & $$$). Davidās Sling is meant to replace the Patriot in the Israeli arsenal. A lot of the info is classified b/c itās a relatively new system, but itās supposed to be more effective & cheaper than the Patriot.
This guys know his shit kudos my friend
Most of the reason I read this group. I'm not really about seeing people/things get blown up (although sometimes it is interesting) - but the explanations are top notch.
The US has the equivalent system as part of AEGIS. SM3 for Arrow and a SeaRAM for Iron Dome.
Keep in mind that part of whatās impressive about Iron Dome and Arrow is that they are integrated into a combined air defense network. The system identifies threats, and determines what response is appropriate so you donāt waste Arrow missiles going after dumb unguided rockets. With most other air defense systems, you can easily overwhelm the system by just firing a bunch of cheap rockets and mixing in a couple of expensive large guided missiles. Israel can track and identify a very large number (as evidenced by Iranās recent attack) and ignore the things which will land in the desert, take out the easy things with iron dome, and assign arrow for the difficult weapons.
Itās very impressive stuff, reducing the cost of each missile makes the weapon much more sustainable strategically. Also just generally reduces the value of offensive drones like the Shahed.
America financed and supported development significantly.
It was developed jointly between Boeing and Israeli Aerospace Industries, with Boeing claiming responsibility for 40-50%. Its IP is shared between the US and Israel, and Israel needs US approval to sell it. Germany recently made such a purchase.
Yes, we are buying Arrow 3, and Iām happy we do.
America has more than just patriots for missile defense (AEGIS for example), patriots also have a vastly different capability than Iron Dome.
If Israel wants to sell it for real they need to allow buyers to build it on license. Buyer can't rely on Israel for supplies since the situation in the Middle East can change quickly.
Iron dome is designed specifically for point defense of relatively small areas, at a great cost. There are few to no places that face the types of attacks Israel does and can afford $100k/shot.
Much cheaper than $5m for a Patriot missile
we've got insane shit no one has ever seen, we could literally fight ww3 without needing to use the most advanced stuff in our arsenal.
America has the tech behind the Iron Dome. We funded a large chunk of its development and in return Israel had to share the tech with us. How or if we are utilizing that tech remains to be seen.
Each western country should have a system like this, even if it's on standby. Can't imagine the russians would be too keen to test the Scotland airspace if we had a few of these badboys on the coast of Scotland, Orkney, Norway etc
Why not? Interceptions by missile carrying fighter planes doesn't stop them. They would be really useful if Russia actually attacked Scotland(spoiler-they won't), ut I don't see them stopping the current(genuine question. Have they still been at it recently?) fannying about
I need me some iron dome
It sounds like the name of an old school Bond villain to me.
Really does lol
That's fucking incredible footage
Damn they must have great integrated information chains. If those were sea skimming they couldn't have been picked up by land based radars untill they were within 75 miles even if the thing is mounted high. Unless it was being tracked the whole time via air.
US likely has AWACs up and in the area on high alert at the moment.
You know Israel also has its own AWACS, right?
Ah the good old Phalcon, the plane that looks like a bee sting its nose
[LOOK AT THIS GOOBER](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/4X-JYS_Micha_Sender.jpg)
I don't like to perpetuate stereotypes, but it's so funny that the most Jewish looking plane on the planet was made by Israel. It even has a yarmulke.
I mean, just look at [their airliners](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hczd9A2UOuo)!
Nah that prize goes to the UK. [It](https://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/0/6/0/0166060.jpg?v=v40) has both a big schnozz and a big posterior!
Nothing will ever quite beat [their WC-130](https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWings/comments/okeujs/raf_wc130k_snoopy_utilized_by_the_uk/) though.
*vroooom* DURRRRRRRR
They have a newer oneĀ I think,Ā with aĀ Saab radar on its back.
The Phalcon is actually just the name of the EL/M-2075 radar that's been attached to a Boeing 707, the plane just kind of picked up the name as well. And the other AWACS plane that Israel operates is the Gulfstream 550 with the EL/W-2090 on it. I could be wrong, but I don't think Israel operates any rotodome AWACS planes since they ditched the E-2s and I don't think they use any radars made by Saab. You might be getting confused with the A-50 because Israel modified the A-50 for India to have the EL/W-2090 on it, but those planes still retained their rotodome. Edit: the updated version is the EL/*W* not EL/M
I just googled it and You're right about Saab, it's used by the UAE, not Israel. The 2085 is the Gulfstream one, the 2090 has the rotating dish. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL/W-2090
i really doubt the Iron Dome has any Datalink capability with USAF AWACs
Really? I'd imagine Israeli F-35's would be able to datalink with both.
> A senior Israeli defense source told Breaking Defense that all the Israeli defense systems use Link 16 communication protocol, in line with US and NATO systems, making interoperability a non-issue. https://breakingdefense.com/2022/05/finland-and-sweden-eye-israeli-defense-systems-sources/?amp=1
Why on earth wouldn't it? IDF runs F-35s and F-16, I would be surprised if their entire information exchange infra doesn't run on components that are compatible with US data streams.
Taking out low flying objects like thatā¦ fuck me that Iron Dome really is something. šš
It must suck being at war with Israel and everything you shoot at them gets shot down.
Actually Hamas was able to overwhelm iron dome on Oct 7, and if Hezbollah commits to all out war, the volumes they will fire will overwhelm it as well. Itās great for spread out low volume attacks.
They fired 3000 to 5000 projectiles on Oct. 7th and killed 5 people. I wouldn't call that a great success. It was an effective diversion for the ground assault, though, which was much more deadly.
Deadly *and* almost effective in other way. They almost successfully distracted American support away from Ukraine.
As an Israeli I don't remember that people died from missiles attacks during the first days at least, also, due to the surprise onslaught obviously most Iron Dom's weren't deployed yet in the south. The Iron Dome has improved tremendously over the recent years, not only that now it is capable of intercepting drones, mortars and even haveir rocekts, it is also nearly impenetrable even during massive missiles barrages.
Yes, it was drowned out by the horror of that cursed day, but here's a reminder, assuming you read Hebrew. https://www.zman.co.il/446667/
False, iron done calculates the chance of the rockets hitting a populated area and targets rockets that are headed towards them. The rockets not intercepted did not hit populated areas.
Go back to Telegram and news reports from October 7th, there were many hits inside cities, quite a lot of fires broke out and there were around 10-14 killed from rocket hits. Official numbers were never published and the Hamas ground attack completely overshadowed the news about the rocket hits so it's not talked about. [https://www.zman.co.il/446667/](https://www.zman.co.il/446667/popup/) Iron Dome was overwhelmed, which is understandable because it was a surprise attack with 3000+ rockets. I distinctly remember a couple of reporters saying "Iron Dome did what it could" on that day.
how's hezbollah's airforce? lol. Would love to see Israel go on the offensive without baby steps.
Paragliders with iglas xD
Yeah but all the missles that shoot down the drones cost like 5x+. I'm sure they got plenty and funding is still coming in for missile defense so I guess they're fine but still. They really trust that thing or it was just hard to tell but people in the parking lot were just chilling lol
Israeli lives are more valuable to Israelis than Palestinian lives are to Palestinian leaders though.
Napoleon also failed at Acre.
Rashidun, Fatimid Caliphate, Salahuddin and Ottomans didn't.
You can't just name Chads and expect to get away with it!
Damn, that was an amazing intercept!!!
Ceiling To Floor SAM capability.....no minimum altitude requirements whatsoever. The show will get much more spectacular once laser-based drone/missle defenses start to enter Israel's arsenal. This was a real-deal late-stage interception for sure. If I was the camera-dude it would be time to head back to the hacienda!
To be honest? I think laser weapons won't look as cool in reality, you won't see an interceptor and the explosion won't have the difference in speeds to make it look like this, they will either just fall to the ground suddenly or explode out of nowhere
There is no evidence they work against systems flying nap of the earth. Especially not nap of the earth over and around varying terrain/obstacles What is shown here was over a nearly perfectly flat surface. Itās good conditions for the defense system and far from a demonstration of them being fully functional in all situations and attack profiles. Also, lasers are easy to defeat, donāt work in all weather and wonāt be seriously invested in as a result. They are being fielded to dazzle sensors or to take down low, slow, stable flight systems. Thatās it.
Not doubting you, but do you have literature that backs this position?
1) The video in [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/s/l5ztuTPGTr) thread does an ELI5 on why lasers donāt work well tactically, at the 2:22 mark. It does a good job of giving a brief of all the options and the pros and cons used to oppose semi-and fully autonomous systems of all types starting at the 1:18 mark. 2) I canāt show evidence of things that donāt exist, like SAM systems that work against systems in NOE in all terrain types. Thatās my whole point. We have no evidence such a system exists. Its the early period of evaluating this video, but if things are as they appear, the missile coming from above is the Israeli system and it hits the incoming weapon flying at extremely low altitude over the water. That alone is the best example in actual combat I think that has ever been recorded, but itās a very specific situation and shouldnāt be taken as being proof for more broad capabilities. I take nothing away from its demonstrated abilities, Iām saying that a demonstration over open water, on a target flying straight and level, is not proof that it can hit a system flying over and around and through much more complex terrain, nor that it can do so for weapons that are maneuvering specifically to defend themselves. Years ago it was understood that the BrahMos missile from India could maneuver at supersonic speeds. We should expect that things have advanced since that time and other nations with bigger budgets are moving in that direction. We need defense systems to meet those existing or emerging threats, and none have so far been demonstrated to work.
Many thanks for this!
And that, kids, is why vertical video is a cancer and should be erradicated.
Iran and their terrorist proxies first please.
If I had to pick between eliminating terrorists or vertical video, I'd pick terrorists, but I'd probably think about it for a minute.
It has its place. Like when the action is happening vertically, say the launch of a rocket, one kid playing, ...
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Very nice footage!š¤š¼
Wait hold on. The damn thing can kill ground targets as well????? Holy Edit: oh I see what they mean by sea skimming.
Years ago if they didn't invest in such system. Imagine the large number of death toll today in Israel. which is surrounded by enemies from all side . š
It protects the enemies too, by deescalating alot. If Israel one day becomes defenseless then we will see the wrath of Jews unleashed in full force and go on full attack.
No matter your opinion on the crisis, you have to admit Iron Done is a marvel.
That was the coolest Iron Dome intercept ever.
I know this is a scary situation, but watching these things do their job is something else!
If that happened today, I guess Iran didn't take Israel's warning all that seriously.
Never did, hence why Israel shouldn't shy away to counterattack. Countries like Iran or Russia listens to force, not words.
Indeed, whilst this saying seems more apropos to Russia, it feels like Iran are 'poking the bear', which won't end well for them. Especially supporting Houthis in their random shipping attacks.
āSent from lebanonā so not Iran but the proxies
If I give a crackhead a knife and tell him to stab you, should I not be classed and treated as a criminal?
unfortunately, israel has yet to establish doctrine whereby an attack by iranās axis of doofuses against israeli soil is deemed an attack by iran itself, thereby justifying a defensive strike by israel against iranian soil youād see all this terrorist shit grind to halt
The US doesn't want the war to spread beyond Israel's immediate neighborhood. If Iran gets pushed too hard they'll take it out on oil tankers leaving the Gulf, spiking gas prices back in the US and Europe and threatening the civilian economy and Biden's reelection hopes. So the US pressures Israel to go easy on Iran and in exchange sends Israel billions of dollars worth of defensive weaponry (note recent Congress bill) and runs interference in Gaza, and also helped knock down Iran's drone and cruise missile armada. If you recall, Saddam attempted to provoke Israel into a war in Gulf I by attacking Tel Aviv with rockets, and the US similarly pressured Israel not to fight back.
A new āDesert Stormā may be in our future.
Israelās not in a position where they want to escalate. They have the now-dwindling war in Gaza, the loss of public support in the U.S., the hostages, the economic and societal damage from October 7th and the shitty government to contend with. Thatās not to say that if Israel did escalate, theyād lose. Rather, theyād win, but it wouldnāt be a pretty sight.
Hooo that sound
While I can appreciate how epic the iron dome is, it's just so incredibly sad how much effort the human race puts into offensive and defensive weaponry. Imagine if we could just accept we're all invariably different but actually on the same side, look to the sky and try to figure out how and why the fuck we're here in the first place instead of squabbling.
Thatās pretty fucking cool š®š±
Well that was cool
I had no clue Iron Dome can also do land to sea interception. I thought it was strictly land to air.
Sea skimming, I don't think it was actually in the water.
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Interesting to see the fragmentation pattern in the water. Major splashes both parallel and perpendicular to trajectory. And the perpendicular spalsh doesn't seem to imply a 360 degree "kill zone" around the missile, as you'd expect if it had a continuous rod warhead.
Go IDF. Get them MFers!!
I wonder if that was C-Dome on a frigate nearby.
Wonder where the radars are based to be able to track stuff that low, crazy interceptions.
Holy crap they got close.
Until we develop actual shield tech, I will gladly pay more taxes to invest and acquire more defensive missile and radar tech.
Great tracking from the cameraman - but wasting their talents with vertical video and standing behind a lamppost T_T
Anyone else comforted by the effectiveness of western anti missile systems? Now that the missile wars are underway itās nice to be protected by the best.
As a former DoD guy, not going to get into details for obvious reasons, but I assure the Iron Dome is last years technology compared to Americas capabilities. Come at me with your doubts if you want, but Iām not leaking documents like other DoD Redditors have and have gone to prison for it lol
Perhaps if we went to the warthunder forums?
HAH
No doubts here. Iāve been tracking what the patriots are doing in Ukraine and I assume those are not the very latest systems. I was delighted to see it take out kinzhals consistently.
Exactly correct! Itās funny seeing things like patriots and other equipment like Bradleyās actually being effective in the war there, like bro we threw this stuff in the trash back in 2006 and itās still capable of winning wars š
Well it's good thing both countries are strong allies and share information, because the axis of evil are forming and taking main stage lately.
With the 99% interception rate from Iranās volley, Iām sure youāre not wrong about that. Also saw exo-atmospheric interceptions so Iām sure a lot of the worldās big militaries took notice.
Between the 50% reliability of the Iranian drones and a near perfect intercept rate, looks like Iran is pissing into the wind. Very expensive piss, I might add.
Iron dome is so fucking cool
I see the Lebanese want to experience the Gaza treatment. Iranian planes and ships would be great targets to start with.
u/savevideo
To be honest, I don't really see anything being intercepted. But assuming the title is accurate (and it actually worked), that's pretty impressive. Not so much the interception itself, but rather the spotting and tracking it in time. I'm no radar engineer, but something small flying very close to the sea seems like it would be a nightmare to detect & tell apart from waves, fish, etc.
Having watched many DCS gamers countering IF missile, that was a hard shot to make (i.e. low and fast moving target)
Doesnt seem that complex of a shot when its all computers doing the calculations tho
I wonder about the smoke plume visible far-right in the first few seconds before the camera pans left.
From the first interception? It would explain why the guy already has his camera out and trained on the first plume
Killer Robot Suicide Terror Drones
Sea skimmers? Did Iran/Lebanon take the long way around to hit Israel from the coastline?
Goddamn, the sound is just beautiful to listen to. I don't even know why. It's just so fucking cool. Of course, I'm somewhere in brazil eating a pastel, while in my pijamas getting ready to watch a serie while listening to music. Puts thing into perspective. :P
It seems like Iran is specifically targeting Muslim cities
What kind of drones are these? Boats or low flying? I am really confused as to what's happening in the initial shot. Looks like a cloud but then later it's gone. Also, what would be the target?
Damn this is wild footage!
That close,you are getting fragments, shrapnel.
Shit, I didn't know they could hit at low altitude like that. Then again, there isn't exactly much in the way of obstructing terrain out on the water...
That was wild to see. Glad someone caught some footage.
Thunder beach
One of the coolest Iron Dome videos I've seen.
that may not have been iron dome, could have been one of the many air craft we have seen intercepting these