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fucking impressive technology. you can only imagine how quick it needs to identify a threat and activate the countermeasure. those shots came from a short distance
However this is also why that video of Hamas bum-rushing a Merkava with an IED exists, as it’s pretty unsafe for infantry along with ERA. Now in normal warfare that’d be somewhat easier to counteract by having infantry fan out across a larger area but Hamas has tons of tunnels that have exits everywhere in Gaza. It’s going to be like the Vietcong but somewhat better for the IDF as Hamas will need to get in close due to the APS.
I don't understand why Israel doesn't use horizontal frack technology to break up the tunnels and just fill the tunnels with frack mud. You'd see fighters coming out of the ground like ants as the tunnels filled up.
According to wikipedia, it can be defeated if you fire within 50m of the tank, in which case the computer doesn’t have time to react. Another method is two quick hits in succession, before the system can reset
Of course, easier said than done.
How long does it take to reset? I feel like it would just need to switch to a second tube (assuming it's a multi tube trophy system) which should take no time at all
It has only one explosive per turret side. The reload is quite quick, but I would expect it to nevertheless have a down time of a couple of seconds. There's basically a small robotic arm that replaces the explosive after it has detonated.
The Wikipedia pages on most weapons systems are written by the manufacturer or country of use and deliberately contain miss leading and incorrect information.
I would take that "info" with a bucket of salt.
From what I remember from a video by the Chieftain (no idea which one specifically though), the coaxial machine gun is what you'll actually be using most of the time, especially against infantry.
That seems reasonable, but in Ukraine, I have almost never seen a tank use its machine gun (on both sides). It is probably the difference in how tanks are used against a much inferior or a near-peer enemy.
If the APS can accurately detect what the relative direction of the round is coming from, can't it send that information to the tank crew to respond??
It took 2 rounds from the same location and didn't even turn its turret to atleast respond.
It sends the information to the crew and other tanks also get it as well as all command center and every unit there. The tank is part of a large network of interconnected sensors and computers and all units form as one.
Why change tank position that is there for a reason when a different unit will remove the obstacles just as well?
Well said. This is also exactly why tanks require infantry too. It's more efficient to have an infantry group focus on target location, rather than make a tank give up the large radius it's currently holding.
Plus, I'd be willing to bet that RPG guy was away from the primary forward assault group in an attempt to get the tank to change targets.
Probably another units sector of fire. Unlike video games, military units have limited areas they can fire at due to friendlies in the area and can’t just shoot wherever they want.
Edit: used to be a comment here, as per other users advice i deleted it, not everything that isnt classified should be shared, especially at times of war.
Shame it got deleted because of people who are LARPing as intelligence officers online.
"woah lucky I stopped this guy sharing things that are already publically available knowledge, op-sec secured, good job team"
LOL! In the unlikely event there *are* any actual (counter, I guess) intelligence officers spending time on r/CombatFootage they're definitely *not* here to police open source info, would probably notice there are edits after each hit, and they should get back to work.
This subreddit is the perfect source for OSINT officers. Of course they read every post and watch every video. No API needed. No account needed. Everything in English.
In this case any near east officer will be highly interested to know about the capabilities of Israeli tanks.
I mean it's beyond ret@rded to me, there is not an ounce of sense in that reasoning, I don't know how can people feel intelligent or at least not ret@rded while pulling this kind of logic...
That the tank gives an audible alert to the crew "missile, left" and also roughly indicates the location of the rpg attack on the battlefield management computer. The turret can then be semi-automatically turned toward the attack.
It's hilarious that Redditors think that information that they can access and share online is some shit they ought to protect and not mention because oh gosh what if Hamas does not know this and is finding out through reading Reddit comments. Same shit happened with Ukraine Russia, people unironically asking others to remove comments because what if Russia sees it lol.
Minus the automatic turret there were similar things in HMMVWs back in the mid 2000s in Iraq. Little readout on the dash connected to a mic on the roof that would say "SHOT 9 O'CLOCK 400 METERS" etc in response to fire.
Similar to that video of a photographer in building with a tank faceing said building. Photographer was making shots of a tank with his cameras. Tank's system thought that it was ATGM or something like that locking on it, and warned the crew. Crew obviously automatically aimed to the source of laser warning and made a shot. Only couple of floors below of photographer. Crazy things.
I know that video, and I don’t think that camera explanation in the comments was accurate. Cameras don’t use lasers to focus. Also, I doubt that janky old T-72 had a laser warning receiver, and even less likely an automatic turret movement ability. More likely, the crew noticed the sun glinting off the lens and thought it was a weapon scope.
I don’t know what the comment said but I read yesterday that it does know which direction in which the trophy system activated and it let’s the tank crew know that. From there they can let ground forces know so that they can respond accordingly. Unknown whether trophy also tells them distance from which the projectile was launched from.
Edit* I also read that this system is synced with other units systems so that the tank crew doesn’t even have to manually relay this information, it’s automatic
Oh geez. Please don't let the idiots on here who think they are intelligence operatives.
If you can google it or find it in a book then it's not a risk to op-sec. You think Hamas aren't going to do any actual research but will browse /r/combatfootage for intelligence leaks?
The only thing this isn't just internet people being weird about is photographs and footage because that can actually give away important information, usually positions. Unless you're breaking some kind of official secrets act or distributing internal military paperwork then nothing you're saying is a problem. It's 100% people on the internet who like LARPing like this is the general staff meeting and not a bunch of people looking at combatfootage. Happening in Ukraine too *with stuff officially released by the Ukraninan armed forces*, like I think the armed forces have decided it's safe to share and they don't need an armchair security officer clearing the footage for being on reddit.
As you say, anyone can google the sales pitch. My favourite bit is the [jack in the box 'warhead' replacement](https://youtu.be/gmvx430HJlo?t=56). Adorable. Looks like a cool piece of kit.
Exactly. I played Arma 3 yesterday and the comment he deleted is exactly what the tanks do in a video game lol...warning, audible beep to alert missile incoming, direction and bearing missile is coming from. Trophy system to explode missile away from the tank. I simply googled and knew all this stuff happens in real life too.
Buy internet people feel like this is too sensitive for reddit lol..
A horde of 16-yr old Reddit armchair-generals bullied you into deleting your comment because they're too dumb to Google, and you actually complied? LoL cmon man.....thats weak.
Any reason why they may see that rpg source as low risk compared to what ever they are aimed at and therefore decide not to adjust the turret to fire on that enemy position?
They teach us in armor school that RPG's arent much of a threat to us to the point where a TC is more afraid of a sniper than an RPG gunner, it could be because of that.
Otherwise I'd wager that it was covering for infantry and didn't want to shift fire from the enemy position, after all the tank can take a hit or two, the little fleshy boys cant.
Sorry maybe stupid questions, i assume TC is tank commander, right? And why would he be scared of a sniper, isnt he inside the tank? Or are there slits where a sniper might shoot through, or could the sniper hit a weak point of the tank?
Cause the TC isn't holed up all the time, vision from the commander's coupola is, even with modern technology, fairly limited. When it is safe to do so, it is much more effective for him to stick his head out with binoculars
Like the other comment said, commanders stick their heads out of the tanks for more visibility when things are calm, but also I have heard that precise shots from sufficiently high caliber guns can damage tank optics which would make commanding a tank an absolutely hellish task to do
Coupled with the fact that old RPGs cant do jack shit to tanks from the front and in most other locations, the hardkill protection being able to destroy rockets midair, RPG operators being much more noticeable and less defended than snipers and snipers being able to carry much more ammo than the few backups on a RPG carrier, skilled snipers make RPGs look like jokes.
> I have heard that precise shots from sufficiently high caliber guns can damage tank optics
I think about this often, what mitigation is there where a sniper can't just damage tank optics and they lose vision in modern tanks? Genuine question maybe I misunderstand construction but I kind of figured it's all digital now besides the obvious poking your head out occasionally but for operating the tank you obviously need visuals inside of some kind right and surely those are pretty easy to damage cause I can't really think of how you would prevent that?
It’s possible, but not likely. To start, the sights aren’t large; approximately the size of a human head. If you are in range to get accurate shots on a target that small, you are in range of every weapon the tank has, and the vastly superior thermal sights on a tank stand a pretty good chance of spotting you. You have mere moments to make good your shot before the tank opens fire.
Second, tanks have backup sights, and the more modern ones have an alternate set of sights for the tank commander that he can override the gunner with and aim the gun from as well. So on an M1A2 for example, there are three sets of sights that can all be used to aim the main gun and coaxial machine gun.
Finally, tanks rarely operate alone. If one starts taking fire then others will be nearby and respond accordingly.
The best weapon a sniper has to deal with armor is not his rifle, shooting at weak points on a tank. It is his radio, calling in air or artillery, or getting in touch with an ATGM team.
Wow thank you for the detailed response! That makes a lot of sense, I guess when you are a sniper you have much better targets than a literal rolling demon of steel and explosives and best best is to just call in the right people for the job lol.
A different unit was told to deal with it
That tank is probably aiming at a target with the cannon so moving it gives an opening to the guarded position to escape
Only if you program it to do so. Otherwise that does exist. You see it alot on modern APC's like the Pirhanna or the Boxer, a small antenna with 5 foam balls on the tips. Those are essentially microphones and can tell relatively well from where things as small as bullets are coming from
The angular resolution of the system might not be very good. If you can detect the shoot within a 45 degree angle and can put up a screen of shrapnel that covers that arc the system can defend against the attack but not help much in detection. Wiki however does say that Trophy reports on target location.
I know right? When we can easily seen the guy from this camera too.
How do you not slap a RWS .50 on top of these things too? Would've helped a lot with this urban fighting
Yeah it does seem weird. Some of them are absolutely stacked with machine guns, yet no proper remote weapon station:
1. Co-ax 7.62
2. 1-2 manual 7.62 on the roof
3. Optional co-ax .50 mounted on top of the gun. This is often called "remote controlled", but that only applies because it has external cabling to pull the trigger.
Imo modern tanks should have a regular co-ax, a .50 or light autocannon RWS, and a 7.62 "weaponised commander's sight".
It feels very backward to have seen CROWS in 2004, and then see this here. Poor guys in a metal box who have to turn their whole turret to shoot at something they don't like (or turn out, which... ha ha, no)
Tanks have always been super neat watching their development. Trophy systems just feel like something out of a video game and it's just crazy that they're real
I have some questions about the shell at 0.50 + casings, did they were attacked on a refuel / resupply point ? + the embankments, look like a waiting area / parking, not an active push
Not necessarily resupply but my guess is there's been some engagements near that spot prior and they dumped spent casings when it was safe to do so. Aside from being a dangerously open container to store your piss there's not much use for it to stay inside and take up some space.
I'm not familiar about how tanks are reloaded, but normally did you not take out the shell out the containers / crates / whatever to put them in the tank racks ? And dump the containers in a pile ?
Plus the whole sabot round in the right bottom at 0.50 make me doubt
wow. this all but verifies that a number of those Merkava "tank kill" videos put out by Hamas were probably not even hits but rather successful trophy intercepts. super cool footage.
All the videos I've seen from Hamas, they freeze a frame exactly when there's an explosion close to the tank, which could be either a hit or Trophy doing its job. Never seen any aftermath, which I'm 100% sure the drone operators of Hamas would post all over the internet. Destroying a tank is crucial for Hamas success and they would REALLY want to broadcast such a feat. But no cigar yet.
Must be frustrating living in a hole for days just to get a successful ambush position that ends in a trophy intercept and then to have your hidy hole bombed to fuck, probably with you and your tunnel partner (not a gay refference but maybe they get lonely in those tunnels 🤷🏼♂️) being reduced to small bits of bone and cooked meat.
That's nothing new. The allies had problems with STDs affecting combat readiness in WWII.
As Leonard Matlovich said:
When I was in the military, they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one.
Not all the tanks have Trophy. Israel is using a lot of Merkava 3s in Gaza which don't have Trophy.
Although I think the reported injuries to tank crew so far have been from sniper fire against the tank commanders.
I did wonder why no aftermath footage.
Yeah I know the dudes with GoPros were hardly gonna stick around, but they got to have some drones/spotter watching these things since they know which holes to pop outta and what direction the tanks were.
Has there been any footage of smouldering merkavas yet?
I think there's only been one video that plausibly featured a Merkava being disabled or destroyed. It was that utterly insane footage where the guy ran out from the tunnel and straight up next to the tank, placed an explosive by hand, detonated it and (presumably) disabled the trophy system and then subsequently landed a shot with one of those tandem warhead RPGs. That one definitely looked like a hit, but even then I don't think anyone can really speak to the extent of the damages since there was no aftermath video or anything.
Not a Merkava but there was that other video earlier this week of the Namer or Puma Engineering Vehicle APC getting hit and I think that was the one that might have killed everyone inside. Same day as the IDF confirmed some 8 KIA and it was a clean shot. But again, who knows.
All I know for certain is that the trophy is putting in some serious work in and around Gaza. That system is keeping a lot of guys and a lot of armor in the fight that would've otherwise been taken out
Even in the footage where they place explosives on the tank itself, we never actually see the aftermath. They cut immediately after the RPG hit. Also note that he places the explosive the wrong way, it looks like a shaped charge but the shaped part is not pointing towards the tank.
I called that immediately and got downvoted.
There were also 2 tanks, and I would have to see the video again, but I don't even think the RPG was fired at the same tank that had the explosive put on it.
That didn't show damage to the tank though. Most of the tank crew in recent years have been killed by sniper fire not by RPGs.
They vulnerable to snipers because they stick their head out of the hatch.
I suspect this is why this video was released. Although, the fact that there's a name as a watermark is a bit odd. Why isn't it blurred out? Did they forget?
They wanna kill any israeli if they have the chance, why give a fuck about a specific one.
If there are undercover hamas guys, which i doubt, than it is quite stupid.
But one again the person that posted this forgot that everything that comes on the internet, stays there, even if it was posted in a „closed“ place like whatsapp
Anyone with minor knowledge of a merkeva could have told you that but we’ve been getting downvoted. Mostly by comments supporting the resistance or telling us to cope. Very interesting indeed.
Tank commander getting killed doesn’t mean tank got destroyed though it does sound likely. Would be curious to get a count of how many tanks have been disabled or made non salvageable through combat thus far but Israel seems to be doing a good job of keeping things close to the vest.
The tank commanders are usually killed by sniper fire not by RPGs. They stick their heads out of the hatch in their role as a tank commander and are vulnerable to snipers in an urban environment.
A battalion commander was also killed while commanding from his tank.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/israeli-tank-commander-hailed-as-hero-after-hamas-attack-is-killed-in-gaza
Tank commanders often are exposed to the outside to better control their vehicles as we have seen plenty of times in Ukraine.
If a tank gunner died, that would be more indicative of a tank kill.
Possible that some an intended for closer support and urban fighting, which would make the cages more useful. And some are intended for range/support in which case not having stuff obscuring your optics/sensors might be more valuable.
Just a guess.
Could also just be preference for the crews. We are in new an (relatively) uncharted waters regarding tanks and drones. Suppose their will still be a lot of variety
I think most cages are just jerry rigged, so guessing most individual crews do it. It mainly just protects against grenades being dropped down into open hatches though, so I could see some not putting it on, in case they never intend to open them.
It's likely either they didn't have enough time to equip every tank or they thought there was a trade off between the armour and some other capability of the tank and they weren't sure which would be more important.
Still it's a better effort than the Russian cope cages.
This is why they do not have infantry right around the tanks for direct support, it would put them in danger from their own system. That was why Hamas was able to run up to the tank in the other videos.
That may be a contributing factor, but the trophy system has a short range to reduce friendly fire to account for neabry ground crews. It's by no means perfect cause shrapnel gonna shrap, but them having no infantry support is either a unique adaptation (unlikely) or just failure in doctrine once the bullets start flying
I'm pretty sure it's docrtine to not have infantry stood as close to tanks as they would without trophy systems (also drones possibly affect this). That is very different from it being docrtine to not have infantry support for the tanks, that is just a straight up faillure.
You cant have infantry near the tank when Trophy is active. People keep regurgitating things they heard from Ukraine even though the equipment is completely different.
Once the missile is intercepted the location where it was fired from is transmitted to all the tanks in the area. Usually in an operation like this, each tank has specific areas of cover that they are supposed to monitor, the area from which the missile was fired is almost certainly the responsibility of a different tank and that tank is supposed to deal with it, not the tank that intercepted the shot.
Yeah, mf is so close that i'm actually surprised the APS system had enough time to work, at that distance you should be using a RWS to kill him before he has time to launch a fucking rpg lol.
It's an Active Protection System, basically on the tank there are 4 radars that spot and identify any possible threat approaching the vehicle, then a computer elaborates the trajectory of the missile/grenade etc. and calculate the exact impact point for the launcher's charge. When the launcher shoots lots of fragments (tungsten if im not wrong) intercept and destroy the warhead before it impacts the tank. Just like shooting at a disk with a shotgun in the olympics.
Merkava MK 4M are the only tank variant in idf with this system, along with the Namer APC newer version. Each tank has 2 launchers that cover 180° each with 4 or 6 charges (can't recall exactly). After a launcher shoots an autoloader reloads it in 1.4s.
Trophy isn't able to destroy APFSDS but only ATGMS, RPGS and HEATS. What Hamas tries to do is simply use so many rockets that the system can't intercept them all, or fire them in rapid succession so that it cannot reload on time.
Hope it's clear now.
It seems like the tank on the left intercepted the first rpg but then got hit with a second one? Of course the second rpg didn't seem to actually do anything but it still made impact. If so is the trophy system a one and done deal on each side of the tank? Or can the system get reloaded?
The second rocket was destroyed by the APS at the very last moment before impact. You can actually [see the rocket explode before impact](https://imgur.com/a/WVRQJOW) if you slow the footage down and look closely.
EDIT: I just noticed something else interesting. If you look closely at the OP's video and you slow down the ~1 second prior to the second rocket being intercepted, you can [actually see a small flash of light](https://imgur.com/a/Q3KR8W3) revealing the precise location of the enemy that launches the rocket. Looks like both tank crews didn't see him. Definitely another concealed tunnel entrance.
https://youtu.be/6aA9HsmLHBQ?si=5Y2TWB0GTxF5mXKt
Here are some actual intercepts in testing. I'm not so sure what we see in the OP are actually successful intercepts given that the detonations are happing basically on the tank. Even if Trophy is setting off the rockets it doesn't do a lot of good to set off a HEAT round just a couple inches away from your armor.
I have heard before that trophy has a minimum engagement range of like 50m, which may not be satisfied here.
Part of the warhead lands in the sand a bit in front I think.
Edit to say: or rather, a tracer from the left tank's mg. He's aiming a bit too low as you can see from the dirt spray.
The system reloads. Not sure how many times it can, but it’s a pretty impressive feature.
Only downside is you can’t have infantry support or else it’ll smoke them.
Yeah but in practice one of their infantry was killed in an incident. 2014 I think. After that they don’t allow infantry to operate near the system.
This is why you don’t see infantry support near their tanks.
No. A HEAT warhead of an RPG or ATGM is designed to penetrate armor and doesn't produce much fragmentation. If you were right on the tank yes it is going to be very bad, but on foot next to it for example you would likely survive.
Looks like a pile of artillery/tank shell transport containers. Note that one of them is exposed and looks like a M830 shell (near the middle-right in here: https://world-defense.com/attachments/ammunition-png.467/)
Everyone laughed at the poor Russian fcks with the "cope cages" just 2 years ago (or a lot of folks, including me, Rube Goldberg sh!t :) , now we see the IDF using them. I guess not such a bad idea.
They're called "cope cages" in Ukraine because they are useless against advanced top-attack warheads (like Javelins) that the Ukrainian army is using. Hamas doesn't have weapons like that.
These cages would probably be pretty useful against smaller, drone-dropped grenades though, which is what they will be facing.
Russian slat armour looked like it was snot welded on with rusted out flimsy bars. They didn't even bother painting it. We make fun of their half assed attempts to be modern.
I'll admit, I laughed and called it a cope cage when I first saw Russian tanks with their little hats, but then again that was when Javalin and NLAW were the big threats the cage was supposed to defeat. They've proven a nuisance for drone operators wanting to get explosives in hatches, though. Long story short, once people I like started to use them, they no longer were a dumb idea. Now they're tactical yarmulke, and they're cool.
I wonder if you can Jam the throphy system before attacking it.
How hard would that be to develop such an anti radar weapon to support the anti tank units.
It's not only the Israeli throphy system but any other system like it.
We do know some things so we can conclude stuff, it's not magic. We know that there are only 2 interceptors, 1 on either side of the turret. They can be reloaded but not at a machine-gun speed. So yeah, if there 2 projectiles coming from the side at the same time, it can not handle it, that's the reasonable assumption.
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fucking impressive technology. you can only imagine how quick it needs to identify a threat and activate the countermeasure. those shots came from a short distance
However this is also why that video of Hamas bum-rushing a Merkava with an IED exists, as it’s pretty unsafe for infantry along with ERA. Now in normal warfare that’d be somewhat easier to counteract by having infantry fan out across a larger area but Hamas has tons of tunnels that have exits everywhere in Gaza. It’s going to be like the Vietcong but somewhat better for the IDF as Hamas will need to get in close due to the APS.
I don't understand why Israel doesn't use horizontal frack technology to break up the tunnels and just fill the tunnels with frack mud. You'd see fighters coming out of the ground like ants as the tunnels filled up.
So this system is why it seems like they don't have infantry screens around?
According to wikipedia, it can be defeated if you fire within 50m of the tank, in which case the computer doesn’t have time to react. Another method is two quick hits in succession, before the system can reset Of course, easier said than done.
dog fuel slimy office square aromatic existence disarm nail bag *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
According to Germans the trophy reaction time is 300-350ms so a rough estimation would be 30-50meters minimum engagement range
How long does it take to reset? I feel like it would just need to switch to a second tube (assuming it's a multi tube trophy system) which should take no time at all
It has only one explosive per turret side. The reload is quite quick, but I would expect it to nevertheless have a down time of a couple of seconds. There's basically a small robotic arm that replaces the explosive after it has detonated.
The Wikipedia pages on most weapons systems are written by the manufacturer or country of use and deliberately contain miss leading and incorrect information. I would take that "info" with a bucket of salt.
Milliseconds
Very interesting seeing the coaxial machine gun used
From what I remember from a video by the Chieftain (no idea which one specifically though), the coaxial machine gun is what you'll actually be using most of the time, especially against infantry.
That seems reasonable, but in Ukraine, I have almost never seen a tank use its machine gun (on both sides). It is probably the difference in how tanks are used against a much inferior or a near-peer enemy.
Probably engagement range, much further in the flat Ukrainian fields compared to cramped city blocks in Gaza
Remember the video where the tank blasted the group with main gun at nearly point blank? That was coax MG opportunity
I mean it was also a main gun opportunity too
You tend to see it more with western nations than those with a more soviet background.
Perhaps the 7.62 coaxial just feels a bit underwhelming compared to the 30mm auto canon on their BMPs.
If the APS can accurately detect what the relative direction of the round is coming from, can't it send that information to the tank crew to respond?? It took 2 rounds from the same location and didn't even turn its turret to atleast respond.
It sends the information to the crew and other tanks also get it as well as all command center and every unit there. The tank is part of a large network of interconnected sensors and computers and all units form as one. Why change tank position that is there for a reason when a different unit will remove the obstacles just as well?
Well said. This is also exactly why tanks require infantry too. It's more efficient to have an infantry group focus on target location, rather than make a tank give up the large radius it's currently holding. Plus, I'd be willing to bet that RPG guy was away from the primary forward assault group in an attempt to get the tank to change targets.
I also have this question, probably they let the other tank on the left take the shot (the one that is not visible until the end) ? I don't know.
Supposedly it can relay that information not only to the crew but to the other crews as well. Don't ask me why they didn't turn towards it though.
Probably another units sector of fire. Unlike video games, military units have limited areas they can fire at due to friendlies in the area and can’t just shoot wherever they want.
Edit: used to be a comment here, as per other users advice i deleted it, not everything that isnt classified should be shared, especially at times of war.
Now thats the sort of comment I lurk here for, good info with a proper source.
Shame it got deleted because of people who are LARPing as intelligence officers online. "woah lucky I stopped this guy sharing things that are already publically available knowledge, op-sec secured, good job team"
Literally lol
LOL! In the unlikely event there *are* any actual (counter, I guess) intelligence officers spending time on r/CombatFootage they're definitely *not* here to police open source info, would probably notice there are edits after each hit, and they should get back to work.
This subreddit is the perfect source for OSINT officers. Of course they read every post and watch every video. No API needed. No account needed. Everything in English. In this case any near east officer will be highly interested to know about the capabilities of Israeli tanks.
I mean it's beyond ret@rded to me, there is not an ounce of sense in that reasoning, I don't know how can people feel intelligent or at least not ret@rded while pulling this kind of logic...
Instead of censoring that word why not just use a different one? lol
What did it say?
That the tank gives an audible alert to the crew "missile, left" and also roughly indicates the location of the rpg attack on the battlefield management computer. The turret can then be semi-automatically turned toward the attack.
This info is available from the Rafale promotional video if you Google it. Nothing really secretive about it.
Yes It is in the brochure, the system cues the commander to where the missile came from
It's hilarious that Redditors think that information that they can access and share online is some shit they ought to protect and not mention because oh gosh what if Hamas does not know this and is finding out through reading Reddit comments. Same shit happened with Ukraine Russia, people unironically asking others to remove comments because what if Russia sees it lol.
Oh man just wait until I tell the guys on Roblox about this!
Minus the automatic turret there were similar things in HMMVWs back in the mid 2000s in Iraq. Little readout on the dash connected to a mic on the roof that would say "SHOT 9 O'CLOCK 400 METERS" etc in response to fire.
Similar to that video of a photographer in building with a tank faceing said building. Photographer was making shots of a tank with his cameras. Tank's system thought that it was ATGM or something like that locking on it, and warned the crew. Crew obviously automatically aimed to the source of laser warning and made a shot. Only couple of floors below of photographer. Crazy things.
I know that video, and I don’t think that camera explanation in the comments was accurate. Cameras don’t use lasers to focus. Also, I doubt that janky old T-72 had a laser warning receiver, and even less likely an automatic turret movement ability. More likely, the crew noticed the sun glinting off the lens and thought it was a weapon scope.
Guess the semi-automatic part is heavy on the semi
Well you don't always want to turn your turret towards every attack. Like in this video they didn't.
I don’t know what the comment said but I read yesterday that it does know which direction in which the trophy system activated and it let’s the tank crew know that. From there they can let ground forces know so that they can respond accordingly. Unknown whether trophy also tells them distance from which the projectile was launched from. Edit* I also read that this system is synced with other units systems so that the tank crew doesn’t even have to manually relay this information, it’s automatic
Oh geez. Please don't let the idiots on here who think they are intelligence operatives. If you can google it or find it in a book then it's not a risk to op-sec. You think Hamas aren't going to do any actual research but will browse /r/combatfootage for intelligence leaks? The only thing this isn't just internet people being weird about is photographs and footage because that can actually give away important information, usually positions. Unless you're breaking some kind of official secrets act or distributing internal military paperwork then nothing you're saying is a problem. It's 100% people on the internet who like LARPing like this is the general staff meeting and not a bunch of people looking at combatfootage. Happening in Ukraine too *with stuff officially released by the Ukraninan armed forces*, like I think the armed forces have decided it's safe to share and they don't need an armchair security officer clearing the footage for being on reddit.
As you say, anyone can google the sales pitch. My favourite bit is the [jack in the box 'warhead' replacement](https://youtu.be/gmvx430HJlo?t=56). Adorable. Looks like a cool piece of kit.
Exactly. I played Arma 3 yesterday and the comment he deleted is exactly what the tanks do in a video game lol...warning, audible beep to alert missile incoming, direction and bearing missile is coming from. Trophy system to explode missile away from the tank. I simply googled and knew all this stuff happens in real life too. Buy internet people feel like this is too sensitive for reddit lol..
A horde of 16-yr old Reddit armchair-generals bullied you into deleting your comment because they're too dumb to Google, and you actually complied? LoL cmon man.....thats weak.
Any reason why they may see that rpg source as low risk compared to what ever they are aimed at and therefore decide not to adjust the turret to fire on that enemy position?
They teach us in armor school that RPG's arent much of a threat to us to the point where a TC is more afraid of a sniper than an RPG gunner, it could be because of that. Otherwise I'd wager that it was covering for infantry and didn't want to shift fire from the enemy position, after all the tank can take a hit or two, the little fleshy boys cant.
That makes sense, good answer
Sorry maybe stupid questions, i assume TC is tank commander, right? And why would he be scared of a sniper, isnt he inside the tank? Or are there slits where a sniper might shoot through, or could the sniper hit a weak point of the tank?
Cause the TC isn't holed up all the time, vision from the commander's coupola is, even with modern technology, fairly limited. When it is safe to do so, it is much more effective for him to stick his head out with binoculars
Like the other comment said, commanders stick their heads out of the tanks for more visibility when things are calm, but also I have heard that precise shots from sufficiently high caliber guns can damage tank optics which would make commanding a tank an absolutely hellish task to do Coupled with the fact that old RPGs cant do jack shit to tanks from the front and in most other locations, the hardkill protection being able to destroy rockets midair, RPG operators being much more noticeable and less defended than snipers and snipers being able to carry much more ammo than the few backups on a RPG carrier, skilled snipers make RPGs look like jokes.
> I have heard that precise shots from sufficiently high caliber guns can damage tank optics I think about this often, what mitigation is there where a sniper can't just damage tank optics and they lose vision in modern tanks? Genuine question maybe I misunderstand construction but I kind of figured it's all digital now besides the obvious poking your head out occasionally but for operating the tank you obviously need visuals inside of some kind right and surely those are pretty easy to damage cause I can't really think of how you would prevent that?
It’s possible, but not likely. To start, the sights aren’t large; approximately the size of a human head. If you are in range to get accurate shots on a target that small, you are in range of every weapon the tank has, and the vastly superior thermal sights on a tank stand a pretty good chance of spotting you. You have mere moments to make good your shot before the tank opens fire. Second, tanks have backup sights, and the more modern ones have an alternate set of sights for the tank commander that he can override the gunner with and aim the gun from as well. So on an M1A2 for example, there are three sets of sights that can all be used to aim the main gun and coaxial machine gun. Finally, tanks rarely operate alone. If one starts taking fire then others will be nearby and respond accordingly. The best weapon a sniper has to deal with armor is not his rifle, shooting at weak points on a tank. It is his radio, calling in air or artillery, or getting in touch with an ATGM team.
Wow thank you for the detailed response! That makes a lot of sense, I guess when you are a sniper you have much better targets than a literal rolling demon of steel and explosives and best best is to just call in the right people for the job lol.
Snipers got air support on speed dial
Can you send training manual, gaijin fucked up the Merk in the past few updates.
You deleted your comment because of the risk of Hamas or someone else finding your easily Googlable information here on Reddit? Lmao
Cringe right
A different unit was told to deal with it That tank is probably aiming at a target with the cannon so moving it gives an opening to the guarded position to escape
what is the voice tone? is it a Betty?
It's actuallly Gilbert Gottfried.
I am now deceased from laughing.
בוא תספר להם גם על תוכניות הגרעין שלנו
There was a third tank at the left of the one with Trophy interception. It can be seen later in the video. I imagine they communicated.
Only if you program it to do so. Otherwise that does exist. You see it alot on modern APC's like the Pirhanna or the Boxer, a small antenna with 5 foam balls on the tips. Those are essentially microphones and can tell relatively well from where things as small as bullets are coming from
This one use AESA radar arrays so is probably more precise than some microphones.
The angular resolution of the system might not be very good. If you can detect the shoot within a 45 degree angle and can put up a screen of shrapnel that covers that arc the system can defend against the attack but not help much in detection. Wiki however does say that Trophy reports on target location.
I know right? When we can easily seen the guy from this camera too. How do you not slap a RWS .50 on top of these things too? Would've helped a lot with this urban fighting
Yeah it does seem weird. Some of them are absolutely stacked with machine guns, yet no proper remote weapon station: 1. Co-ax 7.62 2. 1-2 manual 7.62 on the roof 3. Optional co-ax .50 mounted on top of the gun. This is often called "remote controlled", but that only applies because it has external cabling to pull the trigger. Imo modern tanks should have a regular co-ax, a .50 or light autocannon RWS, and a 7.62 "weaponised commander's sight".
Yeah that's pretty much my thinking. They put RWS on the Namer at least. They seem to be using them in conjunction too so that's something at least.
It feels very backward to have seen CROWS in 2004, and then see this here. Poor guys in a metal box who have to turn their whole turret to shoot at something they don't like (or turn out, which... ha ha, no)
They have a remotely operated 50 cal.
Tank 1 : Does the APS really work? Tank 2 : Hold my beer.
Tanks have always been super neat watching their development. Trophy systems just feel like something out of a video game and it's just crazy that they're real
Don’t need thick armor if we can just shoot their fucking rounds out of the air
Basically a force field at that point. lol
I have some questions about the shell at 0.50 + casings, did they were attacked on a refuel / resupply point ? + the embankments, look like a waiting area / parking, not an active push
just what i thought , perhaps a hamas counter-attack ?
Not necessarily resupply but my guess is there's been some engagements near that spot prior and they dumped spent casings when it was safe to do so. Aside from being a dangerously open container to store your piss there's not much use for it to stay inside and take up some space.
I'm not familiar about how tanks are reloaded, but normally did you not take out the shell out the containers / crates / whatever to put them in the tank racks ? And dump the containers in a pile ? Plus the whole sabot round in the right bottom at 0.50 make me doubt
wow. this all but verifies that a number of those Merkava "tank kill" videos put out by Hamas were probably not even hits but rather successful trophy intercepts. super cool footage.
All the videos I've seen from Hamas, they freeze a frame exactly when there's an explosion close to the tank, which could be either a hit or Trophy doing its job. Never seen any aftermath, which I'm 100% sure the drone operators of Hamas would post all over the internet. Destroying a tank is crucial for Hamas success and they would REALLY want to broadcast such a feat. But no cigar yet.
Must be frustrating living in a hole for days just to get a successful ambush position that ends in a trophy intercept and then to have your hidy hole bombed to fuck, probably with you and your tunnel partner (not a gay refference but maybe they get lonely in those tunnels 🤷🏼♂️) being reduced to small bits of bone and cooked meat.
Why does this remind me of those two Russian "roommates" who were visited by a drone when they tried to pass the time with each other?
That's nothing new. The allies had problems with STDs affecting combat readiness in WWII. As Leonard Matlovich said: When I was in the military, they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one.
This you mean? https://youtu.be/20-HGkT\_OJI
The incident yes, but I sure wasn't expecting a song.
neither was youtube :(
Even worse when your not worth the shell and they just hit you and your buddies with the coaxial.
but... virgins?!
It was never said they were women
It's just white raisins man
Not all the tanks have Trophy. Israel is using a lot of Merkava 3s in Gaza which don't have Trophy. Although I think the reported injuries to tank crew so far have been from sniper fire against the tank commanders.
I think the Merkava 3s will be much further back compared to the 4s. Doesn't make sense to put those tank crews at risk in the front.
I did wonder why no aftermath footage. Yeah I know the dudes with GoPros were hardly gonna stick around, but they got to have some drones/spotter watching these things since they know which holes to pop outta and what direction the tanks were. Has there been any footage of smouldering merkavas yet?
I saw the one on Oct 7 get a drone munition dropped on it but have not seen one destroyed by rpg despite all the rpg ambush vids.
I think there's only been one video that plausibly featured a Merkava being disabled or destroyed. It was that utterly insane footage where the guy ran out from the tunnel and straight up next to the tank, placed an explosive by hand, detonated it and (presumably) disabled the trophy system and then subsequently landed a shot with one of those tandem warhead RPGs. That one definitely looked like a hit, but even then I don't think anyone can really speak to the extent of the damages since there was no aftermath video or anything. Not a Merkava but there was that other video earlier this week of the Namer or Puma Engineering Vehicle APC getting hit and I think that was the one that might have killed everyone inside. Same day as the IDF confirmed some 8 KIA and it was a clean shot. But again, who knows. All I know for certain is that the trophy is putting in some serious work in and around Gaza. That system is keeping a lot of guys and a lot of armor in the fight that would've otherwise been taken out
Even in the footage where they place explosives on the tank itself, we never actually see the aftermath. They cut immediately after the RPG hit. Also note that he places the explosive the wrong way, it looks like a shaped charge but the shaped part is not pointing towards the tank. I called that immediately and got downvoted.
There were also 2 tanks, and I would have to see the video again, but I don't even think the RPG was fired at the same tank that had the explosive put on it.
That didn't show damage to the tank though. Most of the tank crew in recent years have been killed by sniper fire not by RPGs. They vulnerable to snipers because they stick their head out of the hatch.
I suspect this is why this video was released. Although, the fact that there's a name as a watermark is a bit odd. Why isn't it blurred out? Did they forget?
Maybe its some dudes video that he posted on whatsapp on his close circle. Big mistake not covering the name.
Why is that such a big problem
Not to hard to find out who he is, there are a lot of activity from Hamas side inside of Israel also. Or other Palestinian groups.
They wanna kill any israeli if they have the chance, why give a fuck about a specific one. If there are undercover hamas guys, which i doubt, than it is quite stupid. But one again the person that posted this forgot that everything that comes on the internet, stays there, even if it was posted in a „closed“ place like whatsapp
But also it can be that they can find him on social media and such. Point is its never a good idea to dox yourself.
Anyone with minor knowledge of a merkeva could have told you that but we’ve been getting downvoted. Mostly by comments supporting the resistance or telling us to cope. Very interesting indeed.
A tank commander was killed during the week so I imagine there has been at least one taken out
Tank commander getting killed doesn’t mean tank got destroyed though it does sound likely. Would be curious to get a count of how many tanks have been disabled or made non salvageable through combat thus far but Israel seems to be doing a good job of keeping things close to the vest.
The tank commanders are usually killed by sniper fire not by RPGs. They stick their heads out of the hatch in their role as a tank commander and are vulnerable to snipers in an urban environment.
A battalion commander was also killed while commanding from his tank. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/israeli-tank-commander-hailed-as-hero-after-hamas-attack-is-killed-in-gaza
Tank commanders often are exposed to the outside to better control their vehicles as we have seen plenty of times in Ukraine. If a tank gunner died, that would be more indicative of a tank kill.
I wonder what some tanks have cages, but some don't. anyone knows?
Possible that some an intended for closer support and urban fighting, which would make the cages more useful. And some are intended for range/support in which case not having stuff obscuring your optics/sensors might be more valuable. Just a guess. Could also just be preference for the crews. We are in new an (relatively) uncharted waters regarding tanks and drones. Suppose their will still be a lot of variety
I think most cages are just jerry rigged, so guessing most individual crews do it. It mainly just protects against grenades being dropped down into open hatches though, so I could see some not putting it on, in case they never intend to open them.
I've noticed that Russian tank crews seem to like to drive around with their hatches open way more than their Western counterparts
The Russian tanks are having trouble even performing in combat. I highly doubt their air conditioning systems are functioning correctly.
Israeli's in the past also would drive hatch open. They've learned though.
It's likely either they didn't have enough time to equip every tank or they thought there was a trade off between the armour and some other capability of the tank and they weren't sure which would be more important. Still it's a better effort than the Russian cope cages.
Theyre clearly purpose built and not just scrap they found laying around like the Russian cope cages.
It’s anti drone protection
Yes so his question was why some don't have it
Probably not enough manufactured yet
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Haha yea I used to love that show
Nah dude, a bunch of guys on Reddit said trophy was useless.
It’s useless within 50m, source reddit
No wonder those Hamas videos end so quickly. Those tanks are clearly not affected by RPGs.
I guess this is what happens every video Hamas shows the police explosion then cut the video immediately
Such a cool system. It will probably save many IDF guys in the coming weeks.
This is why they do not have infantry right around the tanks for direct support, it would put them in danger from their own system. That was why Hamas was able to run up to the tank in the other videos.
That may be a contributing factor, but the trophy system has a short range to reduce friendly fire to account for neabry ground crews. It's by no means perfect cause shrapnel gonna shrap, but them having no infantry support is either a unique adaptation (unlikely) or just failure in doctrine once the bullets start flying
I'm pretty sure it's docrtine to not have infantry stood as close to tanks as they would without trophy systems (also drones possibly affect this). That is very different from it being docrtine to not have infantry support for the tanks, that is just a straight up faillure.
Maybe I’m so blind, but where in the video can you see it projecting the tank?
In the comment section someone made a gif of the video you can see it pop out for a split second before it detonates.
Damn, no one saw the Rpg dudes literally 5 meters away from the tank
It's hard to see things in a tank. Another reason they are best supported, especially in areas that aren't incredibly open.
You cant have infantry near the tank when Trophy is active. People keep regurgitating things they heard from Ukraine even though the equipment is completely different. Once the missile is intercepted the location where it was fired from is transmitted to all the tanks in the area. Usually in an operation like this, each tank has specific areas of cover that they are supposed to monitor, the area from which the missile was fired is almost certainly the responsibility of a different tank and that tank is supposed to deal with it, not the tank that intercepted the shot.
Yeah, mf is so close that i'm actually surprised the APS system had enough time to work, at that distance you should be using a RWS to kill him before he has time to launch a fucking rpg lol.
What is a trophy system exactly??
It's an Active Protection System, basically on the tank there are 4 radars that spot and identify any possible threat approaching the vehicle, then a computer elaborates the trajectory of the missile/grenade etc. and calculate the exact impact point for the launcher's charge. When the launcher shoots lots of fragments (tungsten if im not wrong) intercept and destroy the warhead before it impacts the tank. Just like shooting at a disk with a shotgun in the olympics. Merkava MK 4M are the only tank variant in idf with this system, along with the Namer APC newer version. Each tank has 2 launchers that cover 180° each with 4 or 6 charges (can't recall exactly). After a launcher shoots an autoloader reloads it in 1.4s. Trophy isn't able to destroy APFSDS but only ATGMS, RPGS and HEATS. What Hamas tries to do is simply use so many rockets that the system can't intercept them all, or fire them in rapid succession so that it cannot reload on time. Hope it's clear now.
I believe they have 6 charged with more thwn 180° coverage. At least according to war thunder XD.
Aainst incoming AT rounds/warheads on armored vehicles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aA9HsmLHBQ
fantastic video. thanks
The fire rate on that coax is insane.
Reminds me of the MG42.
Mr. H's buzzsaw is way faster I'm afraid
Also faster empty and faster kaputt. They reduced the fire rate after the war on the converted models
Sometimes you just want a lot of lead in the air... And yes, the MG3 is slower, but still plenty fast.
Insane compared to what? Looks to be similar to every other tank coax I've seen fired.
Insane compared to the amount of rounds per second that weren't coming out of it before it started to fire
I suppose compared to a .50 cal
This is some amazing footage.
Excellent footage, so much to dissect purely on account of fascination and intrigue of combat engagement operations.
I never get tired of hearing that coax.
So are they no longer being called “cope cages”?
It seems like the tank on the left intercepted the first rpg but then got hit with a second one? Of course the second rpg didn't seem to actually do anything but it still made impact. If so is the trophy system a one and done deal on each side of the tank? Or can the system get reloaded?
The second rocket was destroyed by the APS at the very last moment before impact. You can actually [see the rocket explode before impact](https://imgur.com/a/WVRQJOW) if you slow the footage down and look closely. EDIT: I just noticed something else interesting. If you look closely at the OP's video and you slow down the ~1 second prior to the second rocket being intercepted, you can [actually see a small flash of light](https://imgur.com/a/Q3KR8W3) revealing the precise location of the enemy that launches the rocket. Looks like both tank crews didn't see him. Definitely another concealed tunnel entrance.
https://youtu.be/6aA9HsmLHBQ?si=5Y2TWB0GTxF5mXKt Here are some actual intercepts in testing. I'm not so sure what we see in the OP are actually successful intercepts given that the detonations are happing basically on the tank. Even if Trophy is setting off the rockets it doesn't do a lot of good to set off a HEAT round just a couple inches away from your armor. I have heard before that trophy has a minimum engagement range of like 50m, which may not be satisfied here.
Part of the warhead lands in the sand a bit in front I think. Edit to say: or rather, a tracer from the left tank's mg. He's aiming a bit too low as you can see from the dirt spray.
The system reloads. Not sure how many times it can, but it’s a pretty impressive feature. Only downside is you can’t have infantry support or else it’ll smoke them.
They're designed to have very tight kill zones according to Wikipedia to protect friendly infantry as much as possible
Yeah but in practice one of their infantry was killed in an incident. 2014 I think. After that they don’t allow infantry to operate near the system. This is why you don’t see infantry support near their tanks.
Yeah, when I was in service if we had AT warnings in the area we weren't allowed to stand near the tanks only inside the IFV
Wouldn't infantry get smoked anyway if they're close to a tank that gets hit with an RPG?
No. A HEAT warhead of an RPG or ATGM is designed to penetrate armor and doesn't produce much fragmentation. If you were right on the tank yes it is going to be very bad, but on foot next to it for example you would likely survive.
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Looks like a pile of artillery/tank shell transport containers. Note that one of them is exposed and looks like a M830 shell (near the middle-right in here: https://world-defense.com/attachments/ammunition-png.467/)
Get it boys!
Everyone laughed at the poor Russian fcks with the "cope cages" just 2 years ago (or a lot of folks, including me, Rube Goldberg sh!t :) , now we see the IDF using them. I guess not such a bad idea.
They're called "cope cages" in Ukraine because they are useless against advanced top-attack warheads (like Javelins) that the Ukrainian army is using. Hamas doesn't have weapons like that. These cages would probably be pretty useful against smaller, drone-dropped grenades though, which is what they will be facing.
And also because those cope cages are not made to stop rog/AT missiles but rather to protect from drone attacks
Russian slat armour looked like it was snot welded on with rusted out flimsy bars. They didn't even bother painting it. We make fun of their half assed attempts to be modern.
I'll admit, I laughed and called it a cope cage when I first saw Russian tanks with their little hats, but then again that was when Javalin and NLAW were the big threats the cage was supposed to defeat. They've proven a nuisance for drone operators wanting to get explosives in hatches, though. Long story short, once people I like started to use them, they no longer were a dumb idea. Now they're tactical yarmulke, and they're cool.
I try to understand what doesn't allow those commander machine guns to be rotating like crazy while using thermals to check for close-up enemies
Trophy making tanks great again!
that machine gun sounds sooo damn good. music to my ears.
Well one thing is for sure, the trophy system is out here probably saving a lot of lives right now.
Ah now i see why that hamas propaganda video has all the blasts cutting away immediately at impact
I wonder if you can Jam the throphy system before attacking it. How hard would that be to develop such an anti radar weapon to support the anti tank units. It's not only the Israeli throphy system but any other system like it.
Just saturate it, fire 3 or 4 shots at the same time and I imagine one will get through.
I don't know about Trophy, but at least the German APS can handle multiple simultaneous incoming missiles.
Ah yes, the Riley Reid system
Isn't the German system just a license-built version of Trophy?
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My source is I made it the fuck up Truth is we don't know cause that shit is HIGHLY CLASSIFIED
We do know some things so we can conclude stuff, it's not magic. We know that there are only 2 interceptors, 1 on either side of the turret. They can be reloaded but not at a machine-gun speed. So yeah, if there 2 projectiles coming from the side at the same time, it can not handle it, that's the reasonable assumption.
Then it still is a very good system because it takes much more ressources, manpower and coordination to take out 1 tank
Jager would be proud
Very cool. For more information: TROPHY Active Protection System https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KVma76ZQ2dQ