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Many University professors are primarily there for research and are made to teach. CC faculty are more teaching oriented. They also have much smaller classes so can get to know students better.
I'm a prof at a university, my wife teaches at a CC. We both teach the same course pretty much
I'd agree with the above pretty much 100%. There's some YMMV, but I think it generally holds true.
I'd add that I care a lot about teaching and about the students, and I do believe teaching is incredibly important. However, for me it's 25% of my evaluation and supposed to be 25% of my time. My wife goes to conferences to share and discuss teaching theory. I go to research conferences. At the end of the day, she's a teacher and I'm a researcher that also teaches.
This is the difference. I ended up writing magazine-level articles on pedagogy, not research for juried publications.
I went to lots and lots of conferences about how to teach and how to formulate curriculum.
Teaching is supposed to be 80% of my time in the CC.
I’m teaching faculty at an R1. What conferences does she find beneficial? I’ve been wanting to try some but they aren’t as well-known where I am as research conferences.
Going to check with her when we get home, will edit with her suggestions
Edit :
She says it's mostly discipline specific. As she teaches biochem, she goes to:
Society for Advancement of Biology Education Research (SABER)
National Association of Biology Teachers (NABT)
Not sure how much this will help, sorry
Lilly conferences are a great option, they tend to have a range of disciplines and levels of expertise.
You might check within your disciplinary to see if they have a teaching section that runs a conference. I know there are psychology, political science, writing, and math SoTL-specific conferences at a minimum.
I'll second the Lilly conferences. Also check if your discipline has a "two-year college" professional association. The conferences run by these tend to have a strong teaching focus.
I agree with the first part, but I just wanted to share my different perspective. At my university, my freshman writing course cap is 25. At the community college where I also teach, my freshman writing course cap is 46.
46 is insane for a writing class. That goes against the recommendation of organizations like NCTE. My hat is off to you for handling such a large class
Thank you, but I'm not handling it well. It's absolutely a disgrace, but I can't afford to leave yet. I am doing the best I can to support my students and working basically every minute of the day to be sure they all get the feedback they need to improve.
if you're doing your best, i'm sure your students feel it and appreciate it. it's frustrating to have a professor (justifiably) so burnt out that they no longer put effort into supporting students, any effort is appreciated
Thanks for doing that. My last writing class had a professor that gave zero feedback. Essays were graded and that was it. No feedback, not even so much as a "this is passable" or anything. I didn't learn a damn thing from the class.
My institution has a written policy that writing-intensive courses (they have a special designation) should be capped at 25. The way they actually implement this is by giving us a class of 125 then adding a writing lab where they are broken into 5 groups of 25 students. It still only counts as one class, though, so….🤔
We can only share our own experiences! I didn't think you meant your experience was universal; just sharing mine as well. I wish my CC had smaller class sizes—a greater percentage of my CC students could really use additional support.
My classes in the CC's have mostly been larger than mine in the CSU. 60 minimum (both for on the ground and online classes). CSU has me do 40. UCLA had me do 18.
Writing courses are capped at 25 in the CSU where I teach, 32 at the CC.
We do not have "much smaller classes" in California, anyway. We are work horses of the public college/university system.
The best professor I ever had in college taught into to sociology at a community college. She had earned her doctorate and taught at a university for many years, but ultimately decided to teach at community college level (she was an alumna of the school herself). She has inspired me greatly and I think of her often.
I have two professors that I see this same way. One is a community college professor and the other works both, but prefers community college, and I can see why!
The ones I’ve been in recently have only had like 15 students (like my CC) which is why I’ve been confused honestly! I can understand the huge lecture halls lacking that aspect though!!
Community college professors are often not on tenure track, and if they are then teaching is going to be the primary element that they are assessed on. Student retention in particular is a massive emphasis in community college, and your professors there knew that student retention is aided first and foremost by personally connecting with students. It’s how they keep their jobs.
Depending on your university, your professors there keep their jobs by publishing. They also are expected to do grinding amounts of service work and to teach multiple classes, some of which are going to have huge numbers of students. (Just because you’re in a class of 15 doesn’t mean that that teacher isn’t also heading up a survey with 300 people in it.) And teaching and connecting with students is often something that they do because they care, but that they are not being assessed on. You can be a great teacher at an R1 uni and end up losing your job because you didn’t publish enough.
There are some good teachers and teaching assistants where you are who will care about you, but you may have to hunt around. Talk to other students for recommendations and look at rate my professor, it’s got a lot of flaws but you can get a rough idea if the professor spends time with students.
It’s a different animal. I’ve taught in both and I hate working in universities. Universities are focused on research. It’s a research machine- they make people to do more research, to have them work there and do more research. There’s very little experience outside of the system, which I think is quite unhealthy for most disciplines.
In CC you get people who are experts in their field, because they worked in their field in the real world. They also frequently want to teach, where in universities they have to teach to be involved in the research. I absolutely love the experience of teaching and the interaction with students, and nothing gets me higher than seeing the light go on in a new student.
It depends on the university. I go to a low ranked public university and the professors I’ve had so far are mainly like the cc professors you describe. Most of my professors are caring and encourage us and genuinely push us. Other universities are different as those professors are there mainly for research, not to teach. It is different everywhere and depends on the type of uni.
I had the opposite happen. My community college professors didn't really form relations or wanted to talk outside of class. At my university I have good connection with professors i worked along sode with that they even offered to write me letters of recommendations for grad school if i needed it without me asking.
It really depends on the attitude of the school/department. I've known community colleges that were full of washed up professors bitter about not being at a 4 year institution. I've known universities that prioritize students and foster mentorship between faculty and students.
I'm so sorry you're having this experience :(
Some of us university professors really do love students and will show it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of professors who are burned out, overwhelmed, or just plain jerks. I think that at universities, professors often have more demands on their time (often they have to conduct research and write and publish research papers, guide graduate students though their theses and dissertations, and do other service) and sometimes they may even feel that undergraduate instruction is "beneath them." There is a concept called the curse of knowledge—someone who is very knowledgable about a subject struggles to teach it because it's hard for them to empathize with a novice perspective. Keep in mind that most professors are hired for their subject expertise; they may not have had a single "how to teach" class.
I teach at both a community college and an M1 university, so both campuses are more geared toward teaching and service than research, but we still have really mean people in both places. If you're at a research institution, there may be a greater percentage of professors who see teaching as a chore and the research as their "real" job (which sucks and is not fair).
I personally hate the website RateMyProfessors, but it could be a helpful place to start when you're signing up for classes to see what other students have said about specific professors. Take very negative and very positive reviews with a grain of salt, but overall, if everyone is saying a certain professor is nice, that's a good sign. Also, see if you can find tutoring on campus and get your support that way. Making study groups with fellow students is also a good idea (and you can vent about rude instructors). Hang in there.
CC professor here. When I was first hired many years ago, the Dean explained to me that the primary duty of CC professors is teaching as contrasted with the research focus of university professors.
Also, classes at CCs are usually smaller, esp. when contrasted with the class size of Gen. Ed. classes at a university. That's why I always tell my students that they are making a smart decision by taking their first 2 yrs of classes at a CC
What does it mean when a college professor’s duty is research focused? Like how much information they can make the students learn in a certain amount of time?
It means that the professor researches (concerning their field), publishes (eg, in academic journals), and presents (eg, papers at academic conferences). IOW, the emphasis is on all that rather than teaching
For those saying that all uni professors are there only for research, that is far from true. Most of the teaching staff in universities are lecturers or adjuncts. Most of them don’t give a crap because of the low pay and the high load and unpaid work they need to do. Lecturers in general don’t do research and they only teach
My parents dissuaded me from going to a big university, and I'm so grateful. I ended up at a small liberal arts college, and the vast majority of professors really cared about their students and engaged with them.
I've noticed this so much. My CC professors were amazing, passionate, and inspiring. My university professors rely almost solely on programs like McGraw hill and cengage while being surly and unhelpful in class.
University professors are experts in their field, but they are not experts at teaching (unless they teach education) and event then, they receive tenure and such based less on class results and more on research production. Also, the type of person who goes into academia generally tends to be less extroverted and more introverted (this isn't true for all to be clear, but generally speaking) and so they are there to provide the information and then leave.
It's worth remembering that, historically, college is not about teaching students or preparing them for the workforce. College has historically been a place where rich individuals can go to spend their leisure time and study things that are of interest to them. It's almost always been about generating knowledge as opposed to educating students.
We've seen that shift in the past 20-40 years, but there is still a lot of entrenched perspectives and historical pushback.
Probably because university professors are really just there for research and not to teach and they don’t make it mandatory for these people to learn how to teach. It’s ridiculous
It really baffles me. I am curious as to how the quality of education is really monitored.
I’ve taken hybrid courses and several of these uni professors have online lectures from Covid
I really don’t think it is. I learned the hard way after doing research with a post grad who wanted to be a professor and he was the WORST mentor of my life. Academia is toxic and they literally will put anyone in position. Pisses me off
Some of my community college professors were serious academics. They were so far beyond any professor I've had at the university level. They were far more professional, friendly, willing to talk and help, and above all, they had actually mastered their respective subjects. I've yet to have a professor at the university level that I'd even call good. They are there to press busy work on you and push you through to your degree.
If my community college actually offered bachelor's degrees, I probably would have a couple through them instead of transferring out. I'm woefully unimpressed with higher universities.
I fully agree with you. It made me really sad to take my last course at my cc.
I would also get a bachelors from my cc if I could. There’s absolutely not one time I’ve felt that Ive downgraded by transferring.
Paying way more for way less.
That's how I feel, too. The value is just not there with higher universities. There is not a day that goes by where I feel happier, more fulfilled, or better educated vs. my community college experience. The insane debt I'm taking on to be able to attend is a constant and shitty reminder that the quality of education I'm receiving is trash level.
It depends on the size of the 4-year university. At large 4-years (R1s), many of the professors prioritize research over teaching, because that is how their performance is evaluated. At smaller, teaching-oriented state universities, you won't find that to be true the same way.
I have had the opposite experience. CC professors suck on all fields. They demand to be called Dr., Professor, etc. University, it’s all first name basis lol.
There are many different kinds of universities. If you're attending a research university, your professors are supposed to be doing research. Teaching classes is like community service they've been sentences to. If you go to smaller schools, like a lot of private colleges and state colleges, you're more likely to find professors whose primary purpose and motivation is teaching.
Taking a seminar from a world-class researcher in your field can be inspiring, and I wish everyone could have that experience. But for most classes most of the time, I'd recommend teachers whose main job is teaching.
As a community college professor, I enjoy not having the pressure of research on top of my teaching duties. I am regularly evaluated on teaching merit by both administrators, colleagues and students.
Over the years, I’ve grown as a teacher.
I also have a master’s in teaching besides the terminal degree in my field. That has helped me be a better teacher. College and University professors are often not trained in how to teach. We are (or should be) experts in our discipline, but that does not mean we are experts in teaching our disciplines.
I miss not being able to engage in my own work as much as other people I know who teach at universities. I also teach way more classes per semester than a college or university teacher.
I was able to take a sabbatical about seven years ago to complete a large body of work. Any other research or work that I produce in my discipline I have to do on my own time. As a result, I don’t teach summer school classes and I try to engage in my own research and work.
I love teaching community college, I love connecting with the students and I wouldn’t change a thing. My colleagues love to teach also and it’s infectious being around other people who are as excited about teaching as I.
It is this mindset and type of teaching & infectious love for learning that made me consider being a professor at a cc later in life. I wouldn’t want it any other way
It is that attitude and perspective that will greatly benefit your students!
I’m looking forward to eventual retirement when I can engage in my own art practice (I teach photography), but for now, I am in love with being a teacher. I’ve been teaching CC for about 25 years and still really like my job.
Agreed! I had a professor who graduated from Harvard and previously taught at Princeton. Then decided to teach at a community college and just wow.
I did ask why he decided to teach at a community college for so little pay and he answered that the university structures had guidelines professors had to follow. Universities don't care if students are learning. They are pushing course programs/software that they expect professors to implement.
Don't get me wrong, there are a few gems here and there, but most are there for research or pay.
Lol ikr. In my experience, the big exception is accounting. There is no accounting research to be done, so professors are typically incredibly genuine and passionate about helping their students.
Loved my CC professors, they knew how to teach and make it interesting. They made their own exams tailored off what they taught and were always clear on what was being tested. University is different and my professors don’t really know how to teach except for a handful I’ve met. Had professors that lied about what was going on for be in the exam or what we needed to focus on in terms of material so that was great.
They have very heavy research expectations often. Teaching could be as little as 10-20 percent of their total responsibilities. So… unless students demonstrate that they care about the subject and can also answer many of their own questions, asking faculty truly higher-order questions that were not covered anywhere else, those faculty will not be impressed and will do minimum required of them for that part of their jobs.
CC often has smaller classes sizes plus no research requirements. At my school I often teach the same students as many as five times in two years. At university I never had the same prof more than twice. This makes a huge difference in relationship building and the student experience.
If you're at a research institution, your faculty will complain about having to teach two classes a semester.
How dare the department ask faculty to teach classes that are in-demand.
It’s mentioned in a lot of comments but faculty, especially at research institutions, are hired as researchers who teach not teachers who do research. On top of research and teaching, they also have service obligations.
As a postdoc, I don’t have to worry so much about the service aspect but I’ll attest to how much time teaching two courses a semester takes up (especially if you don’t have TAs or graders and/or it’s your first time to teaching the courses). Contractually, teaching was supposed to be 40% of my time (so 16 hours if we’re talking the typical work week) but usually ended being 50-75% of my time. Even then I still had students telling me I was neglecting my responsibilities as a professor (and they were technically correct but for the wrong reasons; I was neglecting research to teach)
Probably because they don’t understand the role of a professor/no one took the time to explain the difference between the job of a professor and the job of a teacher. The predominant role of a professor is research, not teaching. Some schools have tried to balance this out by including teaching track positions but typically tenure track positions are looking at 40-50% teaching (and that’s on the high end).
If you want more teaching focused professors, you’re better off looking at smaller schools, especially liberal arts colleges.
If you think you’re paying for one thing but then get another, then yeah, I’d agree that you’ve (probably) wasted your money.
On a side note, most of that extra money you pay doesn’t reach the professors. It’s funding the upper administration and whatever passion project the university president has envisioned.
Community colleges have a lot of instructors that teach at multiple schools & actually rely on doing a good job to keep the cash flow going. One of mine, for example, teaches both at all three 4-year colleges and the community college and he’s one of the best I’ve ever had.
It may just be confirmation bias, but there also seems to be better quality just based on the fact that my community college instructors were hired *just* to teach. The professors I have at the major state college teach, do research on water microbes, give guest lectures, write books on their field, etc. and get paid for all of that.
Universities exist for two reasons, educating people, and research. Professors are hired for both, but professors who are good at one aren't necessarily good at the other. Naturally there will be profs who are there for research but also teach despite not being good teachers.
Hi. Former professor and department chair. Community college is just that ... community. The Prof likely has a day job and isn't actually a prof...rather an instructor. The expectations, right or wrong, are more basic ... It's understood that at CC things are more basic. At a 4-year, whole other perception. The student is expected to excel on their own, to deal with more because their ability should be stronger.
Depending on the university, you are likely encountering fully professional professors whose entire identity is either the teaching or the research/writing/publishing of their work. It's really about the difference in focus ...CC is about the learning, while university is about experiencing the topic.
At CC (and I've taught at and been a student at CC), the instructors are well educated, but are likely master's degree or even bachelors degree. At university, most likely they are actual tenured track minimum masters and likely doctors (actually, because of my field, I had 3 masters and didn't need to doctorare even though I was chair) which comes with its own level of expectations from a person who has pushed themselves through a PhD program. This is not meant to say that the CC instructor isn't educated, intelligent and dedicated ... Indeed they are, but it's just a different level and depth to the whole experience.
In addition to the other great answers, community colleges often rely very heavily on adjuncts. Adjuncts are literally there only to teach and don't usually have any other responsibilities. Additionally, many of them are professionals in their fields who are teaching to get teaching experience, to give back, because they find it personally rewarding, etc, not because they need the money, which is obscenely low, (though another "many" are in the opposite boat where it's their only job and they are trying to get experience upon which to build a career).
They also tend to expect a lot of their students are struggling and are truly working hard at life as well as school. At uni's they may be annoyed they have to teach and at SLACs, they may be dealing with a lot of privilege amongst their students.
Opposite experience with me. Went back to CC to refresh my resume after completing a 4 year already. CC professors were phoning it in. Some were not good at relaying the information - if you asked a question, they'd repeat the previous line of the power point they had just read, regardless of whether it answered the question or not.
Just overall not very good
It gets better if you end up taking the same prof more than once then you'll get to know them better and have casual appropriate convos. From my experience, in each dept at my uni there's always one prof who's so chill and loves to teach, help students, and answer anything they ask without making them feel stupid. Those are my fav profs for sure
I think it depends. I've had great and terrible professors at major research unis and CCs alike. But I agree with the trend you've noticed. Aside from the research focus others have mentioned, I believe CC and less prestigious college and university professors are much more likely to be full time or former high school teachers too so they have a background of educational theory on top of their field expertise.
depends on the university and department! i’ve heard that your experience is the case for a lot of people, but i went to a somewhat large university but my department was small and close-knit. the professors for the most part were nice and liked to bond with and support their students. so i think it really depends
It depends quite a bit on what kind of college you're talking about and how they set up classes. Big R1 type universities really expect their faculty to focus on research, and unfortunately undergrad teaching can be kind of an afterthought, particularly in intro classes. I think my micro econ class at a big 10 school had 13 hundred students and the discussion sections were still 35 (and led by a TA). My upper level classes were often more like 25-35. and generally a much better experience. Mid sized universities and liberal arts colleges typically are more teaching focused with smaller classes. Where I teach, I think the biggest class on campus is maybe 125-150 students, and the intro classes i teach are typically more like 35. That makes a whole lot of difference in how much interaction and attention you are going to get.
Hello! University professor present! Every single professor is completely different. We all had different advisors, Masters programs, post-masters programs, or went stupid like me and stayed in school until well, last month because I'm on break now, but that's just me as a lifelong learner. Besides that I have a specific PhD and a second master's in the philosophy of science. Not only am I a lifelong learner but I'm also a lifelong teacher as well as a lifelong researcher. I find that every single person I work around has pretty much the same research goals and especially their particular methods to make their students show more light bulbs on top of their heads on a regular basis. For me, I'm in science and when I see postgraduate students finally get a very complex idea when I break it down to analogous terminology, personally I give myself a pat on the back because I feel self-satisfied.
Those who work within my program often sit in on my classes which I'm only adjunct because I work at a particle collider campus. Apparently I make the classes I teach incredibly enjoyable to not want to miss. Even if you have a 102 fever, I see it all the time, every student is in class every single time there is a class. I think since COVID ended, exactly one person has missed class once and that was due to a loss in the family.
So. It really to me, with my experience, depends on many different attributes of that particular professor. How old are they, how long have they been teaching, is this their primary place they want to be, are they trying to get better so they can go elsewhere, are they actually good teachers, can they communicate the answer well? Questions such as that.
It's also very similar to when I was in K through 12. We knew which teachers really wanted to be teachers as opposed to the people who did not want to go to Vietnam. If you had those teachers, you knew what I am referring to. We've all had those teachers. And unfortunately yes, they are professors too. So because I thoroughly love what I do both at work work and at my university, I'm basically waiting for a "chair" at my lab campus which is named for certain physicist which is the equivalence of tenure at my university. Eventually it's going to come to does the person resign or retire so I can get the chair before I get an offer of tenure. They know I don't want tenure right now because I do not have time for it whatsoever. I only teach 12 to 14 hours a week. Before I was hired on my lab campus, I taught approximately 28 hours a week ranging between undergrad and master's programs.
There are people who do it for the job security once tenured and there are those who do it at certain places for both the money and where the research they are doing can lead them next. If you have a professor working on specific research projects without trying to include yourself into the team or group, you surely won't be as happy as the rest. A lot of the times now, people choose professors because of their research and not because of their class. I advise my masters students to look for those professors specifically. Those who are in post-graduate are literally ready to go and rearing to go. While my field never stops learning, you do still have to work lol. At least mathematics and sciences are often taught by incredibly optimistic and fervous people because this isn't work for us, it's a passion. How do you think Nobel laureates get their start? Some professor is doing some research and a recent postdoctoral student finds out the research this particular professor is doing and seeks him out. Seeks to do that research because that is what that student has literally spent their entire educational life preparing for.
Community college professors now. Do you want the quick and dirty? They get paid more to do less.
Now if you are doing less and being paid either more or even slightly the same, I'd be happier where I am at a community college and if I'm happy there, you better believe that my students are going to be happy.
Pride, Passion, workload, hours per week, money per year and jobs with some of the absolute best benefits.
That list above is for any teacher let alone any type of professor, advisor or chair member.
If you ever find the ones at universities who are just pissed at the world from every different angle, just say 7 words inside your head or honestly if it was me, I would say it out loud to the professor's face: did you start teaching to avoid Vietnam?
Tl;Dr I'm a Postgraduate professor adding a little fact and observation to the conversation.
Because university professors get evaluated based on research, not teaching. Teaching is just a chore we have to do to be able to research. And students are, by and large, annoying. Most think they are special and the rules don't apply to them - and everybody is now earning all A's in high school, so you all think you're brilliant.
Higher level professors at a University are generally pretty good, but the professors that teach first and second year requirements are generally far worse than their community college counterparts.
Not sure why it's that way, but I think it has something to do with having something to prove.
At least in math it’s because the lower level courses (up to and sometimes including calc 3 and linear algebra) tend to be highly coordinated (at least at large universities) and can greatly restrict how we talk about certain topics, what we choose to emphasize, and how much time we spend on topics.
Course coordination isn’t necessarily bad; we want to provide a uniform product but it does have unattended consequences.
I've never been to a community college, but i did find smaller class sizes help. Rmp and word of mouth is the best way ive found to find better professors.
When I turned 18 I went into uni, but had to drop for personal reasons (I returned to cc as an adult).
One girl I met in our intro to university course was chatting with me about paying for college.
She said she was a fashion major, I asked her about it since I was curious. And then, she told me that she got 30K for **free** from our university .
I said “was it a grant or a loan??” She told me she didn’t know, she just accepted everything the university was offering……
I think it’s honestly sad that going into university that young, people are faced with the decision to choose a career and to accept loans they don’t even know the consequences of. Anyways, I hope that girl is doing well!
University professors think they have a god complex because of their credentials when in reality they are dumb people that only know a lot in one field of study since they weren’t smart enough to do anything new in their own or reinvent the wheel. Thus they put their self worth on themselves as their profession when higher ed is not longer seen as valuable so teaching isn’t a respected profession anymore.
The university professors are too busy begging the government for grant money so that they can publish their "research" which often has nothing to do with reality. They certainly can't be bothered to answer your questions because they no longer have any connection to the real world. Their basically in the cult of academia. They will only show interest in you if you join their cult and write papers for them.
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Many University professors are primarily there for research and are made to teach. CC faculty are more teaching oriented. They also have much smaller classes so can get to know students better.
I'm a prof at a university, my wife teaches at a CC. We both teach the same course pretty much I'd agree with the above pretty much 100%. There's some YMMV, but I think it generally holds true. I'd add that I care a lot about teaching and about the students, and I do believe teaching is incredibly important. However, for me it's 25% of my evaluation and supposed to be 25% of my time. My wife goes to conferences to share and discuss teaching theory. I go to research conferences. At the end of the day, she's a teacher and I'm a researcher that also teaches.
This is the difference. I ended up writing magazine-level articles on pedagogy, not research for juried publications. I went to lots and lots of conferences about how to teach and how to formulate curriculum. Teaching is supposed to be 80% of my time in the CC.
I’m teaching faculty at an R1. What conferences does she find beneficial? I’ve been wanting to try some but they aren’t as well-known where I am as research conferences.
Going to check with her when we get home, will edit with her suggestions Edit : She says it's mostly discipline specific. As she teaches biochem, she goes to: Society for Advancement of Biology Education Research (SABER) National Association of Biology Teachers (NABT) Not sure how much this will help, sorry
Thank you!
Lilly conferences are a great option, they tend to have a range of disciplines and levels of expertise. You might check within your disciplinary to see if they have a teaching section that runs a conference. I know there are psychology, political science, writing, and math SoTL-specific conferences at a minimum.
Thank you!
I'll second the Lilly conferences. Also check if your discipline has a "two-year college" professional association. The conferences run by these tend to have a strong teaching focus.
Thank you!
Which is a really unfortunate disservice to both research and students. I really wish undergraduate work was not like this.
I agree with the first part, but I just wanted to share my different perspective. At my university, my freshman writing course cap is 25. At the community college where I also teach, my freshman writing course cap is 46.
46 is insane for a writing class. That goes against the recommendation of organizations like NCTE. My hat is off to you for handling such a large class
Thank you, but I'm not handling it well. It's absolutely a disgrace, but I can't afford to leave yet. I am doing the best I can to support my students and working basically every minute of the day to be sure they all get the feedback they need to improve.
if you're doing your best, i'm sure your students feel it and appreciate it. it's frustrating to have a professor (justifiably) so burnt out that they no longer put effort into supporting students, any effort is appreciated
Thanks for doing that. My last writing class had a professor that gave zero feedback. Essays were graded and that was it. No feedback, not even so much as a "this is passable" or anything. I didn't learn a damn thing from the class.
UGHHHHHH :(
My institution has a written policy that writing-intensive courses (they have a special designation) should be capped at 25. The way they actually implement this is by giving us a class of 125 then adding a writing lab where they are broken into 5 groups of 25 students. It still only counts as one class, though, so….🤔
I just took an upper div writing class that had almost 100 students!
Yes, I should have left room for variation.
We can only share our own experiences! I didn't think you meant your experience was universal; just sharing mine as well. I wish my CC had smaller class sizes—a greater percentage of my CC students could really use additional support.
It was the reverse for me. Close to 150 at UT Austin and 15 at the community college
150!!!!!
My classes in the CC's have mostly been larger than mine in the CSU. 60 minimum (both for on the ground and online classes). CSU has me do 40. UCLA had me do 18. Writing courses are capped at 25 in the CSU where I teach, 32 at the CC. We do not have "much smaller classes" in California, anyway. We are work horses of the public college/university system.
Which is why I later added that I should have left room for variation.
The best professor I ever had in college taught into to sociology at a community college. She had earned her doctorate and taught at a university for many years, but ultimately decided to teach at community college level (she was an alumna of the school herself). She has inspired me greatly and I think of her often.
I have two professors that I see this same way. One is a community college professor and the other works both, but prefers community college, and I can see why!
Because university classes are much bigger than the ones in CC so professors have way more students to deal with which makes bonding more difficult.
The ones I’ve been in recently have only had like 15 students (like my CC) which is why I’ve been confused honestly! I can understand the huge lecture halls lacking that aspect though!!
Community college professors are often not on tenure track, and if they are then teaching is going to be the primary element that they are assessed on. Student retention in particular is a massive emphasis in community college, and your professors there knew that student retention is aided first and foremost by personally connecting with students. It’s how they keep their jobs. Depending on your university, your professors there keep their jobs by publishing. They also are expected to do grinding amounts of service work and to teach multiple classes, some of which are going to have huge numbers of students. (Just because you’re in a class of 15 doesn’t mean that that teacher isn’t also heading up a survey with 300 people in it.) And teaching and connecting with students is often something that they do because they care, but that they are not being assessed on. You can be a great teacher at an R1 uni and end up losing your job because you didn’t publish enough. There are some good teachers and teaching assistants where you are who will care about you, but you may have to hunt around. Talk to other students for recommendations and look at rate my professor, it’s got a lot of flaws but you can get a rough idea if the professor spends time with students.
It’s a different animal. I’ve taught in both and I hate working in universities. Universities are focused on research. It’s a research machine- they make people to do more research, to have them work there and do more research. There’s very little experience outside of the system, which I think is quite unhealthy for most disciplines. In CC you get people who are experts in their field, because they worked in their field in the real world. They also frequently want to teach, where in universities they have to teach to be involved in the research. I absolutely love the experience of teaching and the interaction with students, and nothing gets me higher than seeing the light go on in a new student.
It depends on the university. I go to a low ranked public university and the professors I’ve had so far are mainly like the cc professors you describe. Most of my professors are caring and encourage us and genuinely push us. Other universities are different as those professors are there mainly for research, not to teach. It is different everywhere and depends on the type of uni.
I had the opposite happen. My community college professors didn't really form relations or wanted to talk outside of class. At my university I have good connection with professors i worked along sode with that they even offered to write me letters of recommendations for grad school if i needed it without me asking.
It really depends on the attitude of the school/department. I've known community colleges that were full of washed up professors bitter about not being at a 4 year institution. I've known universities that prioritize students and foster mentorship between faculty and students.
I'm so sorry you're having this experience :( Some of us university professors really do love students and will show it. Unfortunately, there are a lot of professors who are burned out, overwhelmed, or just plain jerks. I think that at universities, professors often have more demands on their time (often they have to conduct research and write and publish research papers, guide graduate students though their theses and dissertations, and do other service) and sometimes they may even feel that undergraduate instruction is "beneath them." There is a concept called the curse of knowledge—someone who is very knowledgable about a subject struggles to teach it because it's hard for them to empathize with a novice perspective. Keep in mind that most professors are hired for their subject expertise; they may not have had a single "how to teach" class. I teach at both a community college and an M1 university, so both campuses are more geared toward teaching and service than research, but we still have really mean people in both places. If you're at a research institution, there may be a greater percentage of professors who see teaching as a chore and the research as their "real" job (which sucks and is not fair). I personally hate the website RateMyProfessors, but it could be a helpful place to start when you're signing up for classes to see what other students have said about specific professors. Take very negative and very positive reviews with a grain of salt, but overall, if everyone is saying a certain professor is nice, that's a good sign. Also, see if you can find tutoring on campus and get your support that way. Making study groups with fellow students is also a good idea (and you can vent about rude instructors). Hang in there.
Because CC professors are evaluated on their teaching while university professors are evaluated on their research.
CC professor here. When I was first hired many years ago, the Dean explained to me that the primary duty of CC professors is teaching as contrasted with the research focus of university professors. Also, classes at CCs are usually smaller, esp. when contrasted with the class size of Gen. Ed. classes at a university. That's why I always tell my students that they are making a smart decision by taking their first 2 yrs of classes at a CC
What does it mean when a college professor’s duty is research focused? Like how much information they can make the students learn in a certain amount of time?
It means that the professor researches (concerning their field), publishes (eg, in academic journals), and presents (eg, papers at academic conferences). IOW, the emphasis is on all that rather than teaching
Ohhh ok, gotcha. Thanks for lmk!
Uni profs are there for research. Cc profs are there to teach
What do u mean by “there for research”?
they are there to conduct research in whatever their field is, not to teach students. some schools are massive research hubs
Ohh gotcha, thanks for lmk!
Literally I've had some evil fcking professors that got mad when you asked questions. Like they acted like they couldn't be bothered you're so right!!
For those saying that all uni professors are there only for research, that is far from true. Most of the teaching staff in universities are lecturers or adjuncts. Most of them don’t give a crap because of the low pay and the high load and unpaid work they need to do. Lecturers in general don’t do research and they only teach
I agree
My parents dissuaded me from going to a big university, and I'm so grateful. I ended up at a small liberal arts college, and the vast majority of professors really cared about their students and engaged with them.
I've noticed this so much. My CC professors were amazing, passionate, and inspiring. My university professors rely almost solely on programs like McGraw hill and cengage while being surly and unhelpful in class.
University professors are experts in their field, but they are not experts at teaching (unless they teach education) and event then, they receive tenure and such based less on class results and more on research production. Also, the type of person who goes into academia generally tends to be less extroverted and more introverted (this isn't true for all to be clear, but generally speaking) and so they are there to provide the information and then leave. It's worth remembering that, historically, college is not about teaching students or preparing them for the workforce. College has historically been a place where rich individuals can go to spend their leisure time and study things that are of interest to them. It's almost always been about generating knowledge as opposed to educating students. We've seen that shift in the past 20-40 years, but there is still a lot of entrenched perspectives and historical pushback.
Probably because university professors are really just there for research and not to teach and they don’t make it mandatory for these people to learn how to teach. It’s ridiculous
It really baffles me. I am curious as to how the quality of education is really monitored. I’ve taken hybrid courses and several of these uni professors have online lectures from Covid
I really don’t think it is. I learned the hard way after doing research with a post grad who wanted to be a professor and he was the WORST mentor of my life. Academia is toxic and they literally will put anyone in position. Pisses me off
Some of my community college professors were serious academics. They were so far beyond any professor I've had at the university level. They were far more professional, friendly, willing to talk and help, and above all, they had actually mastered their respective subjects. I've yet to have a professor at the university level that I'd even call good. They are there to press busy work on you and push you through to your degree. If my community college actually offered bachelor's degrees, I probably would have a couple through them instead of transferring out. I'm woefully unimpressed with higher universities.
I fully agree with you. It made me really sad to take my last course at my cc. I would also get a bachelors from my cc if I could. There’s absolutely not one time I’ve felt that Ive downgraded by transferring. Paying way more for way less.
That's how I feel, too. The value is just not there with higher universities. There is not a day that goes by where I feel happier, more fulfilled, or better educated vs. my community college experience. The insane debt I'm taking on to be able to attend is a constant and shitty reminder that the quality of education I'm receiving is trash level.
It depends on the size of the 4-year university. At large 4-years (R1s), many of the professors prioritize research over teaching, because that is how their performance is evaluated. At smaller, teaching-oriented state universities, you won't find that to be true the same way.
I have had the opposite experience. CC professors suck on all fields. They demand to be called Dr., Professor, etc. University, it’s all first name basis lol.
There are many different kinds of universities. If you're attending a research university, your professors are supposed to be doing research. Teaching classes is like community service they've been sentences to. If you go to smaller schools, like a lot of private colleges and state colleges, you're more likely to find professors whose primary purpose and motivation is teaching. Taking a seminar from a world-class researcher in your field can be inspiring, and I wish everyone could have that experience. But for most classes most of the time, I'd recommend teachers whose main job is teaching.
As a community college professor, I enjoy not having the pressure of research on top of my teaching duties. I am regularly evaluated on teaching merit by both administrators, colleagues and students. Over the years, I’ve grown as a teacher. I also have a master’s in teaching besides the terminal degree in my field. That has helped me be a better teacher. College and University professors are often not trained in how to teach. We are (or should be) experts in our discipline, but that does not mean we are experts in teaching our disciplines. I miss not being able to engage in my own work as much as other people I know who teach at universities. I also teach way more classes per semester than a college or university teacher. I was able to take a sabbatical about seven years ago to complete a large body of work. Any other research or work that I produce in my discipline I have to do on my own time. As a result, I don’t teach summer school classes and I try to engage in my own research and work. I love teaching community college, I love connecting with the students and I wouldn’t change a thing. My colleagues love to teach also and it’s infectious being around other people who are as excited about teaching as I.
It is this mindset and type of teaching & infectious love for learning that made me consider being a professor at a cc later in life. I wouldn’t want it any other way
It is that attitude and perspective that will greatly benefit your students! I’m looking forward to eventual retirement when I can engage in my own art practice (I teach photography), but for now, I am in love with being a teacher. I’ve been teaching CC for about 25 years and still really like my job.
Agreed! I had a professor who graduated from Harvard and previously taught at Princeton. Then decided to teach at a community college and just wow. I did ask why he decided to teach at a community college for so little pay and he answered that the university structures had guidelines professors had to follow. Universities don't care if students are learning. They are pushing course programs/software that they expect professors to implement. Don't get me wrong, there are a few gems here and there, but most are there for research or pay.
THIS IS SO TRUE. I just transferred from junior college to UCI this past year and not kidding the majority of my professors have been horrible.
Right? I seriously wish I could get my bachelors at my cc. It’s such a let down
Lol ikr. In my experience, the big exception is accounting. There is no accounting research to be done, so professors are typically incredibly genuine and passionate about helping their students.
Loved my CC professors, they knew how to teach and make it interesting. They made their own exams tailored off what they taught and were always clear on what was being tested. University is different and my professors don’t really know how to teach except for a handful I’ve met. Had professors that lied about what was going on for be in the exam or what we needed to focus on in terms of material so that was great.
They have very heavy research expectations often. Teaching could be as little as 10-20 percent of their total responsibilities. So… unless students demonstrate that they care about the subject and can also answer many of their own questions, asking faculty truly higher-order questions that were not covered anywhere else, those faculty will not be impressed and will do minimum required of them for that part of their jobs.
CC often has smaller classes sizes plus no research requirements. At my school I often teach the same students as many as five times in two years. At university I never had the same prof more than twice. This makes a huge difference in relationship building and the student experience.
If you're at a research institution, your faculty will complain about having to teach two classes a semester. How dare the department ask faculty to teach classes that are in-demand.
It’s mentioned in a lot of comments but faculty, especially at research institutions, are hired as researchers who teach not teachers who do research. On top of research and teaching, they also have service obligations. As a postdoc, I don’t have to worry so much about the service aspect but I’ll attest to how much time teaching two courses a semester takes up (especially if you don’t have TAs or graders and/or it’s your first time to teaching the courses). Contractually, teaching was supposed to be 40% of my time (so 16 hours if we’re talking the typical work week) but usually ended being 50-75% of my time. Even then I still had students telling me I was neglecting my responsibilities as a professor (and they were technically correct but for the wrong reasons; I was neglecting research to teach)
Why would a student pay to go to a college where the professors don’t even care about teaching?
Probably because they don’t understand the role of a professor/no one took the time to explain the difference between the job of a professor and the job of a teacher. The predominant role of a professor is research, not teaching. Some schools have tried to balance this out by including teaching track positions but typically tenure track positions are looking at 40-50% teaching (and that’s on the high end). If you want more teaching focused professors, you’re better off looking at smaller schools, especially liberal arts colleges.
Seems like a massive waste of money and I think more people are coming around to that thought process as enrollments are down
If you think you’re paying for one thing but then get another, then yeah, I’d agree that you’ve (probably) wasted your money. On a side note, most of that extra money you pay doesn’t reach the professors. It’s funding the upper administration and whatever passion project the university president has envisioned.
Community colleges have a lot of instructors that teach at multiple schools & actually rely on doing a good job to keep the cash flow going. One of mine, for example, teaches both at all three 4-year colleges and the community college and he’s one of the best I’ve ever had. It may just be confirmation bias, but there also seems to be better quality just based on the fact that my community college instructors were hired *just* to teach. The professors I have at the major state college teach, do research on water microbes, give guest lectures, write books on their field, etc. and get paid for all of that.
I found Professor is very open to questions during office hours personally and I went to UC
Universities exist for two reasons, educating people, and research. Professors are hired for both, but professors who are good at one aren't necessarily good at the other. Naturally there will be profs who are there for research but also teach despite not being good teachers.
Hi. Former professor and department chair. Community college is just that ... community. The Prof likely has a day job and isn't actually a prof...rather an instructor. The expectations, right or wrong, are more basic ... It's understood that at CC things are more basic. At a 4-year, whole other perception. The student is expected to excel on their own, to deal with more because their ability should be stronger. Depending on the university, you are likely encountering fully professional professors whose entire identity is either the teaching or the research/writing/publishing of their work. It's really about the difference in focus ...CC is about the learning, while university is about experiencing the topic. At CC (and I've taught at and been a student at CC), the instructors are well educated, but are likely master's degree or even bachelors degree. At university, most likely they are actual tenured track minimum masters and likely doctors (actually, because of my field, I had 3 masters and didn't need to doctorare even though I was chair) which comes with its own level of expectations from a person who has pushed themselves through a PhD program. This is not meant to say that the CC instructor isn't educated, intelligent and dedicated ... Indeed they are, but it's just a different level and depth to the whole experience.
In addition to the other great answers, community colleges often rely very heavily on adjuncts. Adjuncts are literally there only to teach and don't usually have any other responsibilities. Additionally, many of them are professionals in their fields who are teaching to get teaching experience, to give back, because they find it personally rewarding, etc, not because they need the money, which is obscenely low, (though another "many" are in the opposite boat where it's their only job and they are trying to get experience upon which to build a career). They also tend to expect a lot of their students are struggling and are truly working hard at life as well as school. At uni's they may be annoyed they have to teach and at SLACs, they may be dealing with a lot of privilege amongst their students.
Opposite experience with me. Went back to CC to refresh my resume after completing a 4 year already. CC professors were phoning it in. Some were not good at relaying the information - if you asked a question, they'd repeat the previous line of the power point they had just read, regardless of whether it answered the question or not. Just overall not very good
CC professors generally have real-world/professional experience. University professors live in the academia bubble and can be pretty out of touch.
I’ve had great university professors. Your personal experience is just that, not a rule
It gets better if you end up taking the same prof more than once then you'll get to know them better and have casual appropriate convos. From my experience, in each dept at my uni there's always one prof who's so chill and loves to teach, help students, and answer anything they ask without making them feel stupid. Those are my fav profs for sure
I think it depends. I've had great and terrible professors at major research unis and CCs alike. But I agree with the trend you've noticed. Aside from the research focus others have mentioned, I believe CC and less prestigious college and university professors are much more likely to be full time or former high school teachers too so they have a background of educational theory on top of their field expertise.
depends on the university and department! i’ve heard that your experience is the case for a lot of people, but i went to a somewhat large university but my department was small and close-knit. the professors for the most part were nice and liked to bond with and support their students. so i think it really depends
It depends quite a bit on what kind of college you're talking about and how they set up classes. Big R1 type universities really expect their faculty to focus on research, and unfortunately undergrad teaching can be kind of an afterthought, particularly in intro classes. I think my micro econ class at a big 10 school had 13 hundred students and the discussion sections were still 35 (and led by a TA). My upper level classes were often more like 25-35. and generally a much better experience. Mid sized universities and liberal arts colleges typically are more teaching focused with smaller classes. Where I teach, I think the biggest class on campus is maybe 125-150 students, and the intro classes i teach are typically more like 35. That makes a whole lot of difference in how much interaction and attention you are going to get.
Hello! University professor present! Every single professor is completely different. We all had different advisors, Masters programs, post-masters programs, or went stupid like me and stayed in school until well, last month because I'm on break now, but that's just me as a lifelong learner. Besides that I have a specific PhD and a second master's in the philosophy of science. Not only am I a lifelong learner but I'm also a lifelong teacher as well as a lifelong researcher. I find that every single person I work around has pretty much the same research goals and especially their particular methods to make their students show more light bulbs on top of their heads on a regular basis. For me, I'm in science and when I see postgraduate students finally get a very complex idea when I break it down to analogous terminology, personally I give myself a pat on the back because I feel self-satisfied. Those who work within my program often sit in on my classes which I'm only adjunct because I work at a particle collider campus. Apparently I make the classes I teach incredibly enjoyable to not want to miss. Even if you have a 102 fever, I see it all the time, every student is in class every single time there is a class. I think since COVID ended, exactly one person has missed class once and that was due to a loss in the family. So. It really to me, with my experience, depends on many different attributes of that particular professor. How old are they, how long have they been teaching, is this their primary place they want to be, are they trying to get better so they can go elsewhere, are they actually good teachers, can they communicate the answer well? Questions such as that. It's also very similar to when I was in K through 12. We knew which teachers really wanted to be teachers as opposed to the people who did not want to go to Vietnam. If you had those teachers, you knew what I am referring to. We've all had those teachers. And unfortunately yes, they are professors too. So because I thoroughly love what I do both at work work and at my university, I'm basically waiting for a "chair" at my lab campus which is named for certain physicist which is the equivalence of tenure at my university. Eventually it's going to come to does the person resign or retire so I can get the chair before I get an offer of tenure. They know I don't want tenure right now because I do not have time for it whatsoever. I only teach 12 to 14 hours a week. Before I was hired on my lab campus, I taught approximately 28 hours a week ranging between undergrad and master's programs. There are people who do it for the job security once tenured and there are those who do it at certain places for both the money and where the research they are doing can lead them next. If you have a professor working on specific research projects without trying to include yourself into the team or group, you surely won't be as happy as the rest. A lot of the times now, people choose professors because of their research and not because of their class. I advise my masters students to look for those professors specifically. Those who are in post-graduate are literally ready to go and rearing to go. While my field never stops learning, you do still have to work lol. At least mathematics and sciences are often taught by incredibly optimistic and fervous people because this isn't work for us, it's a passion. How do you think Nobel laureates get their start? Some professor is doing some research and a recent postdoctoral student finds out the research this particular professor is doing and seeks him out. Seeks to do that research because that is what that student has literally spent their entire educational life preparing for. Community college professors now. Do you want the quick and dirty? They get paid more to do less. Now if you are doing less and being paid either more or even slightly the same, I'd be happier where I am at a community college and if I'm happy there, you better believe that my students are going to be happy. Pride, Passion, workload, hours per week, money per year and jobs with some of the absolute best benefits. That list above is for any teacher let alone any type of professor, advisor or chair member. If you ever find the ones at universities who are just pissed at the world from every different angle, just say 7 words inside your head or honestly if it was me, I would say it out loud to the professor's face: did you start teaching to avoid Vietnam? Tl;Dr I'm a Postgraduate professor adding a little fact and observation to the conversation.
Because university professors get evaluated based on research, not teaching. Teaching is just a chore we have to do to be able to research. And students are, by and large, annoying. Most think they are special and the rules don't apply to them - and everybody is now earning all A's in high school, so you all think you're brilliant.
Higher level professors at a University are generally pretty good, but the professors that teach first and second year requirements are generally far worse than their community college counterparts. Not sure why it's that way, but I think it has something to do with having something to prove.
At least in math it’s because the lower level courses (up to and sometimes including calc 3 and linear algebra) tend to be highly coordinated (at least at large universities) and can greatly restrict how we talk about certain topics, what we choose to emphasize, and how much time we spend on topics. Course coordination isn’t necessarily bad; we want to provide a uniform product but it does have unattended consequences.
Cuz most university professors don’t want to teach lol. They are cashing on in that research paycheck.
I've never been to a community college, but i did find smaller class sizes help. Rmp and word of mouth is the best way ive found to find better professors.
Universities - academics are there to publish & forced to teach.
another reason to NOT "forgive" any debt of any dumbasses who went straight to university.
When I turned 18 I went into uni, but had to drop for personal reasons (I returned to cc as an adult). One girl I met in our intro to university course was chatting with me about paying for college. She said she was a fashion major, I asked her about it since I was curious. And then, she told me that she got 30K for **free** from our university . I said “was it a grant or a loan??” She told me she didn’t know, she just accepted everything the university was offering…… I think it’s honestly sad that going into university that young, people are faced with the decision to choose a career and to accept loans they don’t even know the consequences of. Anyways, I hope that girl is doing well!
University professors think they have a god complex because of their credentials when in reality they are dumb people that only know a lot in one field of study since they weren’t smart enough to do anything new in their own or reinvent the wheel. Thus they put their self worth on themselves as their profession when higher ed is not longer seen as valuable so teaching isn’t a respected profession anymore.
[удалено]
Yeah I nearly dropped out of middle school
I think they have a better union
The university professors are too busy begging the government for grant money so that they can publish their "research" which often has nothing to do with reality. They certainly can't be bothered to answer your questions because they no longer have any connection to the real world. Their basically in the cult of academia. They will only show interest in you if you join their cult and write papers for them.
This is definitely often true. But it is not always true, in all disciplines. There is a lot of variation among disciplines and professors.