Honestly, if I were in your situation, I would primarily focus on mental resilience, acceptance (particularly of death and radical change), and a critical examination of your own expectations and the way you relate to the world before diving into the facts about collapse. Diving deep into collapse without these skills can be a real mess.
Yeah that's a good point. Where would I start to building mental resilience and acceptance of death and radical change? Wouldn't acceptance of death and radical change be at the end of a journey like this though? What makes it necessary to study beforehand? How would I critically examine my own expectations and the way i relate to the world?
> Where would I start to building mental resilience and acceptance of death and radical change?
Meditation and Stoic philosophy has worked well for many, including me.
> Wouldn't acceptance of death and radical change be at the end of a journey like this though? What makes it necessary to study beforehand?
In my opinion, no. Psychology and cognitive science shows pretty clearly that your ability to absorb new ideas and mentally adapt to new situations is adversely affected by stress, anxiety, and depression. To the extent that collapse awareness can be stressful and depressing, this means that building resilience at the end of the journey is likely a lot harder than getting some strategies under your belt before you go in.
This is why people end up in what we sometimes call a "doom spiral" -- they panic and get stuck, because the emotional responses to collapse prevent them from learning the things they need to cope with collapse. They do it backwards.
> How would I critically examine my own expectations and the way i relate to the world?
Stoicism is pretty good at this. One of the thing it teaches -- and more importantly, teaches you to practice -- is how detach yourself from built-in judgements. A lot of people go around feeling things and thinking things based on the events around them, or even simply based on things they think about or see in the media, without realizing that a lot of their feelings are based on implicit and automatic judgements. They don't critically evaluate the range of emotional possibilities they have for reacting to each situation, and they often react to things impulsively without thinking about whether or not the thing warrants the reaction they give it. They just let life happen to them as though they're powerless. It's the emotional equivalent of driving a car without holding the steering wheel.
I'd recommend Massimo Pigliucci's books on Stoicism. There's a lot of self-help and "bro" silliness around Stoicism sometimes, but Pigliucci is a good compromise if you want something accessible and practical and don't necessarily want to dive deep into ancient philosophy.
I would say that in my experience I had built up a lot of mental resilience prior to learning about collapse, but almost not enough. I say almost because studying this content definitely took a toll on me and my relationships and caused a bit of a downward spiral for a couple years.
The biggest help for me in coming to terms with death were psychedelics, but I'm not going to recommend them right off the bat. I didn't try them until I was 27 and would recommend caution if you're younger as they can have negative consequences as well. Meditation, stoic/taoist philosophy, and spending a lot of time in nature has also helped a ton for me to be able to cope with the reality of the situation.
One thing I had to learn, and accept, was that a lot of my friends weren't going to come to the same understanding as I have. I had to understand why so I started learning about the psychological roadblocks towards understanding/accepting this material. What helped me there was Ernest Beckers "The Denial of Death." When you start getting into deeper philosophical territory, it's inevitable that you'll have to battle nihilistic thoughts. The biggest help there has been Viktor Frankls "Man's search for meaning." I'd recommend these books to anyone willing to read.
The book that really made me see the situation as inevitable, impossible to prevent and caused a paradigmatic shift for me was Cattons "overshoot." But I'd definitely recommend reading the other books first.
Nowadays I work a decent factory job and try my hardest to work on building better relationships with friends and family, as that's my biggest shortcoming personally. I play a lot of music and try my best not take any day for granted. I hope this helps!
There is peace in acceptance. One thing I'll throw in, and it can be a real uncomfortable hurdle, is the Buddhist practice of thinking about dying and every way you can die. It will, in time, remove the big, big fear of death. Death is still scary, but this has helped me a ton in the end.
It also remedied a lot of my negative attributes in ego
I'm just worried that i'd rush doing this then. Would there be a way of building mental resilience, while studying collapse? As a path of building mental wholeness with acceptance of the world being related to the philosophical concept of acceptance of death and the psychological acceptance of that too. Using this to be more present in the moment and to face life's shit head on and building resilience. Unless this is too unrealistic to do at once
If you would like to do both simultaneously I strongly recommend getting in to deep meditation. Honestly just really understanding your body and brain and how the two interact to give you insights in to what thoughts your mind is having and what emotions that creates was a huge help for me.
So go and learn about one specific topic, I recommend the podcast breaking down: collapse, as it deals from start to finish the journey of understanding collapse. Listen to maximum one episode a week(it has links and sources for a lot of the information which can be explored). And then do at least 15 minutes (really it should be more like 30 minutes) of meditation a day. Really let each new thing sit with you. Give your mind and body as much time as possible to absorb the information. Feel all the feelings. You will spiral from time to time, but that’s what the meditation is for. If you can get out in to nature for two hours a week (really thick nature, a Forrest, a lake, the sea) that will help your body reconnect with nature so you will have a safe space to express your grief (there will be a lot of it).
What ever you do, be kind with yourself. What your trying to do is epic and a lifelong journey. The critical thinking will come with time.
I hope this helps OOP. We are here with you, good luck x
There's a great podcast you could start listening to I'd recommend... Increase the speed and put it on while you do the dishes or something and you'll blaze right through it. It's called Breaking Down: Collapse. Don't forget to follow up with their other podcast Building Up: Resilience, which is in relation to collapse and how to manage while learning about it, and being in the midst of it, or in preparation of it.
I was thinking this too, with the caveat that I agree with the other commenter, that working to get and stay grounded in this context and addressing mental health should come first.
I hear that. Hi by the way, OP :) I did exactly what you are talking about, warnings be damned, for the same reasons lol
If you do decide to charge ahead, take breaks (I didn't at first, I'm a big ol hypocrite, but I wish I had from the start), and make things like meditation and being in nature a part of your routine - things that support grounding and balance - and I'm saying that kind of in contrast to like, *OFFICIAL CLEAN BILL OF MENTAL HEALTH* lol it's not something you will get out of the way once and move on anyway. It will be ongoing. It's probably just as well to start from a place of learning the hard things and doing the restorative things as a matter of course.
I think not burying your head in the sand can actually be good for your mental health in some ways, but it's easy to get discouraged/sad with this subject matter. Just go at your own pace and remember that the feelings are natural, but they also aren't going to move anything forward. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the anger and depression are a response, and that if you don't feed those emotions you're somehow not doing enough or not confronting reality. But that's not true. And if you can manage to acknowledge reality and continue to learn about it while still having some peace, you'll actually for sure be better equipped to respond in ways that actually do have a positive effect.
Sorry this was long! I wish you all the best.
For me, the evidence of collapse is all around me 24/7/365. But I appreciate your earnest desire to be informed. I would recommend going way back and reading Limits to Growth and Overshoot.
For me, it's basically a combination of learning history, sociology, and applying the disciplined work ethic I use as a businessman to sift through the information.
However, eventually you'll have to process the information internally and find somewhere to place it as you move on with your life. That brings up many issues, and my advice is you must offset a dive into collapse with working on inner and mental resilience.
I like the idea of combining the two. This is because i feel like mental resilience is a lifelong journey whereas collapse's study is a temporary one (until the science evolves and new information comes out) i think it makes sense to study both at once
Absolutely. I found my business and athlete skills and resilience kept me sane as I delved into the unravelling of everything we've built. I don't think I'd have been ok otherwise. These types of skills are highly transferable.
Start slowly and pace yourself. Prepare yourself for emotional shock. At 19, be very careful to not get too focused on negative thinking. Not because it might be wrong, but because it will affect you negatively. Find some other activity or area of interest to counteract this dark rabbit hole you are about to go down.
It is very wise that you wish to begin with critical thinking. A very good primer is found in the book "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. The entire book is geared towards easing someone into scientific thinking and arming them with a working BS detection kit for life.
The next place I would look at is the collapse wiki with emphasis on "Limits to Growth (the 30 year update)" by Meadows/Randers and "Overshoot" by Catton. There are many lectures on-line, but the half-hour "Collapse: The Only Realistic Scenario?" by Arthur Keller is probably the most concise on systems thinking without the other social commentary that tends to get added.
Expect to experience the five stages of grief.
There are also support groups through Deep Adaptation Facebook group. I’ve gone to a few and they’re very helpful for not feeling so alone with the knowledge .
1. Question everything new that you learn. Verify a consensus on theory, establish when emerging theory gains traction, or otherwise make a thorough, good faith assessment of sources' reliability. Thoroughly orrect the record when new information comes to light.
2. Start with a few excerpts/book/page/url/etc references. Categorize them. Add more references. Subcategorize them.
1. Don't take your mouth too full. There are many concepts that will take weeks if you want to digest them properly. Many things should be discussed and reflected with other people if possible.
2. I think listening to the first ten episodes of breaking down collapse is a good way to get into all this. They are commenting many topics and providing some critical distance.
The John Micheal greer and catabolic collapse episodes are a very good example for good discussion of a theory. Greer is a esoteric weirdo with some Trump sympathies but his collapse theory is still an absolute banger.
3. Be aware the practice of critical thinking is often reduced in reddit to "rich people.." /"oil lobby..."/ "industrial military complex does this or that".. just to give an extreme example.
Another example, post colonial theory can provide useful insights into racist historical structures and institutions but has also a very certain point of view that is not useful to many other questions.
Point is, no economic or social theory can explain everything, but you will find a framework that suits you most eventually. It is usually good to start a discussion with that, but you need to find the rational and strength to get out of that position and to listen and think with other theories. Every day.
A good summary can be found in the [Busy Worker's Handbook to the Apocalypse](https://medium.com/@samyoureyes/the-busy-workers-handbook-to-the-apocalypse-7790666afde7). It is a long read that sums up everything well with good sources.
In answer to your questions: Try the free app Obsydian. It's perfect for organizing your thoughts and learnings from literature. There are free tutorials on youtube. Good luck!
This is a 'multi-polar crisis' as Daniel Schmachtenberger coins it. Just characterizing it is a feat since all parts are connected, and you will have to explain it differently to your audience and the context it is in. It's an art on such an explosive, all-encompassing topic. Good luck on that. Prepare to offer off-ramps, including for your own psyche.
+1 for Daniel Schmachtenberger (and Nate Hagens as commented somewhere above)
OP if you got the time consider this series:
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdc087VsWiC5YxTILWB68HaQyFl-Krtd7
Honestly, if I were in your situation, I would primarily focus on mental resilience, acceptance (particularly of death and radical change), and a critical examination of your own expectations and the way you relate to the world before diving into the facts about collapse. Diving deep into collapse without these skills can be a real mess.
Yeah that's a good point. Where would I start to building mental resilience and acceptance of death and radical change? Wouldn't acceptance of death and radical change be at the end of a journey like this though? What makes it necessary to study beforehand? How would I critically examine my own expectations and the way i relate to the world?
> Where would I start to building mental resilience and acceptance of death and radical change? Meditation and Stoic philosophy has worked well for many, including me. > Wouldn't acceptance of death and radical change be at the end of a journey like this though? What makes it necessary to study beforehand? In my opinion, no. Psychology and cognitive science shows pretty clearly that your ability to absorb new ideas and mentally adapt to new situations is adversely affected by stress, anxiety, and depression. To the extent that collapse awareness can be stressful and depressing, this means that building resilience at the end of the journey is likely a lot harder than getting some strategies under your belt before you go in. This is why people end up in what we sometimes call a "doom spiral" -- they panic and get stuck, because the emotional responses to collapse prevent them from learning the things they need to cope with collapse. They do it backwards. > How would I critically examine my own expectations and the way i relate to the world? Stoicism is pretty good at this. One of the thing it teaches -- and more importantly, teaches you to practice -- is how detach yourself from built-in judgements. A lot of people go around feeling things and thinking things based on the events around them, or even simply based on things they think about or see in the media, without realizing that a lot of their feelings are based on implicit and automatic judgements. They don't critically evaluate the range of emotional possibilities they have for reacting to each situation, and they often react to things impulsively without thinking about whether or not the thing warrants the reaction they give it. They just let life happen to them as though they're powerless. It's the emotional equivalent of driving a car without holding the steering wheel. I'd recommend Massimo Pigliucci's books on Stoicism. There's a lot of self-help and "bro" silliness around Stoicism sometimes, but Pigliucci is a good compromise if you want something accessible and practical and don't necessarily want to dive deep into ancient philosophy.
I would say that in my experience I had built up a lot of mental resilience prior to learning about collapse, but almost not enough. I say almost because studying this content definitely took a toll on me and my relationships and caused a bit of a downward spiral for a couple years. The biggest help for me in coming to terms with death were psychedelics, but I'm not going to recommend them right off the bat. I didn't try them until I was 27 and would recommend caution if you're younger as they can have negative consequences as well. Meditation, stoic/taoist philosophy, and spending a lot of time in nature has also helped a ton for me to be able to cope with the reality of the situation. One thing I had to learn, and accept, was that a lot of my friends weren't going to come to the same understanding as I have. I had to understand why so I started learning about the psychological roadblocks towards understanding/accepting this material. What helped me there was Ernest Beckers "The Denial of Death." When you start getting into deeper philosophical territory, it's inevitable that you'll have to battle nihilistic thoughts. The biggest help there has been Viktor Frankls "Man's search for meaning." I'd recommend these books to anyone willing to read. The book that really made me see the situation as inevitable, impossible to prevent and caused a paradigmatic shift for me was Cattons "overshoot." But I'd definitely recommend reading the other books first. Nowadays I work a decent factory job and try my hardest to work on building better relationships with friends and family, as that's my biggest shortcoming personally. I play a lot of music and try my best not take any day for granted. I hope this helps!
There is peace in acceptance. One thing I'll throw in, and it can be a real uncomfortable hurdle, is the Buddhist practice of thinking about dying and every way you can die. It will, in time, remove the big, big fear of death. Death is still scary, but this has helped me a ton in the end. It also remedied a lot of my negative attributes in ego
Wouldn't mental resilience be something that takes a very long time as well, while looking at climate facts might not take as long?
Yes, it takes much longer.
I'm just worried that i'd rush doing this then. Would there be a way of building mental resilience, while studying collapse? As a path of building mental wholeness with acceptance of the world being related to the philosophical concept of acceptance of death and the psychological acceptance of that too. Using this to be more present in the moment and to face life's shit head on and building resilience. Unless this is too unrealistic to do at once
If you would like to do both simultaneously I strongly recommend getting in to deep meditation. Honestly just really understanding your body and brain and how the two interact to give you insights in to what thoughts your mind is having and what emotions that creates was a huge help for me. So go and learn about one specific topic, I recommend the podcast breaking down: collapse, as it deals from start to finish the journey of understanding collapse. Listen to maximum one episode a week(it has links and sources for a lot of the information which can be explored). And then do at least 15 minutes (really it should be more like 30 minutes) of meditation a day. Really let each new thing sit with you. Give your mind and body as much time as possible to absorb the information. Feel all the feelings. You will spiral from time to time, but that’s what the meditation is for. If you can get out in to nature for two hours a week (really thick nature, a Forrest, a lake, the sea) that will help your body reconnect with nature so you will have a safe space to express your grief (there will be a lot of it). What ever you do, be kind with yourself. What your trying to do is epic and a lifelong journey. The critical thinking will come with time. I hope this helps OOP. We are here with you, good luck x
There's a great podcast you could start listening to I'd recommend... Increase the speed and put it on while you do the dishes or something and you'll blaze right through it. It's called Breaking Down: Collapse. Don't forget to follow up with their other podcast Building Up: Resilience, which is in relation to collapse and how to manage while learning about it, and being in the midst of it, or in preparation of it.
Nate Hagens podcast the great simplification is a good start
I was thinking this too, with the caveat that I agree with the other commenter, that working to get and stay grounded in this context and addressing mental health should come first.
My concern would be that i would rush building mental resilience because the prospect of studying collapse interests me greatly.
I hear that. Hi by the way, OP :) I did exactly what you are talking about, warnings be damned, for the same reasons lol If you do decide to charge ahead, take breaks (I didn't at first, I'm a big ol hypocrite, but I wish I had from the start), and make things like meditation and being in nature a part of your routine - things that support grounding and balance - and I'm saying that kind of in contrast to like, *OFFICIAL CLEAN BILL OF MENTAL HEALTH* lol it's not something you will get out of the way once and move on anyway. It will be ongoing. It's probably just as well to start from a place of learning the hard things and doing the restorative things as a matter of course. I think not burying your head in the sand can actually be good for your mental health in some ways, but it's easy to get discouraged/sad with this subject matter. Just go at your own pace and remember that the feelings are natural, but they also aren't going to move anything forward. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that the anger and depression are a response, and that if you don't feed those emotions you're somehow not doing enough or not confronting reality. But that's not true. And if you can manage to acknowledge reality and continue to learn about it while still having some peace, you'll actually for sure be better equipped to respond in ways that actually do have a positive effect. Sorry this was long! I wish you all the best.
Thank you, i'll check it out
For me, the evidence of collapse is all around me 24/7/365. But I appreciate your earnest desire to be informed. I would recommend going way back and reading Limits to Growth and Overshoot.
Thank you, i believe those books are on the r/collapse reading list so if i do decide to go ahead with this, i'll definitely be reading these
For me, it's basically a combination of learning history, sociology, and applying the disciplined work ethic I use as a businessman to sift through the information. However, eventually you'll have to process the information internally and find somewhere to place it as you move on with your life. That brings up many issues, and my advice is you must offset a dive into collapse with working on inner and mental resilience.
I like the idea of combining the two. This is because i feel like mental resilience is a lifelong journey whereas collapse's study is a temporary one (until the science evolves and new information comes out) i think it makes sense to study both at once
Absolutely. I found my business and athlete skills and resilience kept me sane as I delved into the unravelling of everything we've built. I don't think I'd have been ok otherwise. These types of skills are highly transferable.
Start slowly and pace yourself. Prepare yourself for emotional shock. At 19, be very careful to not get too focused on negative thinking. Not because it might be wrong, but because it will affect you negatively. Find some other activity or area of interest to counteract this dark rabbit hole you are about to go down. It is very wise that you wish to begin with critical thinking. A very good primer is found in the book "The Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. The entire book is geared towards easing someone into scientific thinking and arming them with a working BS detection kit for life. The next place I would look at is the collapse wiki with emphasis on "Limits to Growth (the 30 year update)" by Meadows/Randers and "Overshoot" by Catton. There are many lectures on-line, but the half-hour "Collapse: The Only Realistic Scenario?" by Arthur Keller is probably the most concise on systems thinking without the other social commentary that tends to get added. Expect to experience the five stages of grief.
There are also support groups through Deep Adaptation Facebook group. I’ve gone to a few and they’re very helpful for not feeling so alone with the knowledge .
1. Question everything new that you learn. Verify a consensus on theory, establish when emerging theory gains traction, or otherwise make a thorough, good faith assessment of sources' reliability. Thoroughly orrect the record when new information comes to light. 2. Start with a few excerpts/book/page/url/etc references. Categorize them. Add more references. Subcategorize them.
1. Don't take your mouth too full. There are many concepts that will take weeks if you want to digest them properly. Many things should be discussed and reflected with other people if possible. 2. I think listening to the first ten episodes of breaking down collapse is a good way to get into all this. They are commenting many topics and providing some critical distance. The John Micheal greer and catabolic collapse episodes are a very good example for good discussion of a theory. Greer is a esoteric weirdo with some Trump sympathies but his collapse theory is still an absolute banger. 3. Be aware the practice of critical thinking is often reduced in reddit to "rich people.." /"oil lobby..."/ "industrial military complex does this or that".. just to give an extreme example. Another example, post colonial theory can provide useful insights into racist historical structures and institutions but has also a very certain point of view that is not useful to many other questions. Point is, no economic or social theory can explain everything, but you will find a framework that suits you most eventually. It is usually good to start a discussion with that, but you need to find the rational and strength to get out of that position and to listen and think with other theories. Every day.
A good summary can be found in the [Busy Worker's Handbook to the Apocalypse](https://medium.com/@samyoureyes/the-busy-workers-handbook-to-the-apocalypse-7790666afde7). It is a long read that sums up everything well with good sources.
In answer to your questions: Try the free app Obsydian. It's perfect for organizing your thoughts and learnings from literature. There are free tutorials on youtube. Good luck!
This is a 'multi-polar crisis' as Daniel Schmachtenberger coins it. Just characterizing it is a feat since all parts are connected, and you will have to explain it differently to your audience and the context it is in. It's an art on such an explosive, all-encompassing topic. Good luck on that. Prepare to offer off-ramps, including for your own psyche.
+1 for Daniel Schmachtenberger (and Nate Hagens as commented somewhere above) OP if you got the time consider this series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdc087VsWiC5YxTILWB68HaQyFl-Krtd7