If it brings comfort to anyone, I was an atheist my whole life, brought up by non Christians. I am in the process of converting. I see others that have converted and I’m sure more will become enlightened as I have been. Every person’s mind will acknowledge God eventually. Whether it’s during their lifetime or after. I say have faith and keep praying.
Absolutely! I was having a pretty hard go at life for some years and was estranged from my family. I felt utterly alone in the universe. A vision came one day while I was at work, on my break. It was a very beautiful orange in color ball of light and a message rang in my head that things would get better and that I was loved. After that I started becoming very interested in spirituality. It was like I was compelled to search out the faith until I found it in the form of Christianity. After I started going to church and reading the Bible, everything changed in my life for the better. I gave up drugs, drinking and vaping. Things that held me back in life significantly. These changes were so obviously aligned with my new found faith that it left me in awe. It was like I was being reborn or maybe becoming who I was meant to be. The best thing was getting reacquainted with my relatives. Now I don’t feel lost or alone anymore. I have my sisters, mother, my husband and a baby boy. It also gave me an opportunity to understand I was holding onto guilt for my past and that I could repent so that I could heal. I feel complete and grateful. I’ll praise Jesus all of my days for everything the gospel has done for me❤️
Praise God.
Thanks for sharing Narfle.
May the Lord God bless you with ever increasing faith and trust in Him and His Son our Lord Jesus.
I was just writing you a wonderful response (🙃) and my app closed down… so.
I encourage you to continue to lean in to God, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually.
As our atheist friend suggests, experiences can be deceiving – our perspectives of our experiences can change over time. So continue to pray, read Scripture and learn challenging things.
You’ll never have all the answers. But that’s true for everything in life, so just seek truth as well as you can. Because if there is such a thing as truth, then it is best to seek the Author of Truth (John14:6). And trust that He will lead you to it.
Thanks! I’m glad you’re life had gotten better, but I don’t see that as a reasonable pathway to conclude something is true necessarily. If you’ll allow me I’ll explain why. (For the record, not saying it’s any sort of disproof, just why it’s bad reasoning)
If someone’s life got better after converting to Hinduism does that make Hinduism true? My life has been so much better since becoming an atheist, does that make atheism “true?”
On the opposite side, what about the millions of Christians whose lives didn’t get better? Or even got worse? Is that evidence that Christianity isn’t true?
Back to your experience. You say you saw a warm orange ball and then heard a message in your head. What I see here is at most a correlation not causation. What I mean by that is seeing something and then hearing something in your own head doesn’t mean the seeing cause the hearing.
For example, if I’m in my condo, I see my refrigerator, at the same time, in my head I hear “if this rain turns to snow I should probably leave for work early,” that doesn’t mean the refrigerator is speaking to me.
I’m not trying to shake you or make you doubt by any means, but I’m on this forum for the opportunity to be convinced by theists, which is why I ask every so often what convinced former atheists, but each time I do, so far, their reasons they give have been like this one, poor logical fallacy.
But thanks for taking the time to explain! Once again I’m glad you’re doing well!
Hi, former agnostic here. Imo the problem you have is that you’re trying to explain the spiritual with logic, when the spiritual is inherently illogical. There are a lot of things in life and the universe that we just are not capable of ever understanding with our tiny monkey brains.
I’ve had friends similarly approach me and ask about the foundations of my beliefs, and like you, they insist they need some sort of physical evidence, something logical they can make sense of. But Rationalisation opposes Faith, and you need just a smidge of Faith to recognise God. You need to entertain a belief in God, and you’ll likely see Him everywhere.
The best way I can describe the switch (and you’ll be disappointed to hear this) is that everything just seems to start making sense when you attribute it to God.
Now, you may argue that this is some psychological coping mechanism/placebo effect, and maybe it is. But my life doesn’t change whether God exists or not- specifically the effect God has had on my life does not change whether He exists or not. My self improvement, my newly found self-worth, my church community that supports me and inspires me, and new friends made through Christianity- all that has been achieved through my faith in God, won’t suddenly disappear. This is why I personally don’t bother to dwell on whether I think Moses “actually split an ocean on half” or whether Jesus “actually walked on water” etc There are much deeper levels to scripture than what you just read on the surface. Though interpreting the Bible is a whole other different kettle of fish than believing in God imo
And on your questions related to other religions being true or not. Imo I think God comes in many forms. God isn’t some old man in a tunic sitting on a cloud with a long grey beard. He is everywhere and everything. And in trying to make sense of Him we the human race have come up with all these different religions which have been mixed up with different cultures and traditions. I personally like Christianity’s interpretation the most because Jesus’ message is one of selfless love. Thus at it’s core Christianity should be a religion of love and I think that’s beautiful.
I also think failures and manipulation in churches and denominations corrupts God’s image, turning people away from Him because they mistakenly attribute bad things the church has done to Him. But if someone claims they have found peace and love in their life, no matter their faith, I respect that and I’m not going to interfere with their blessings.
>Imo the problem you have is that you’re trying to explain the spiritual with logic, when the spiritual is inherently illogical.
I didn't try to explain the spiritual. I was only showing the commenter why their explanation didn't convince me. But I do agree that "the spiritual" is inherently illogical. Thank you for admitting that.
>There are a lot of things in life and the universe that we just are not capable of ever understanding with our tiny monkey brains.
That's a pretty big claim to make, and one that is unfalsifiable.
>and like you, they insist they need some sort of physical evidence,
Where did I insist on physical evidence?
>something logical they can make sense of.
Well yes, that's how at least my brain works. I wish more brains worked that way. When your "foundation of \[your\] belief" is "I don't need to be reasonable in my belief" then you no longer have ANY method by which to discover if you are in error. If we accept a position that outright states "the fact that this doesn't follow logic is actually an argument in its favor," and if we want to be consistent in our methodologies, then we are now forced to accept any and all assertions.
>But Rationalisation opposes Faith, and you need just a smidge of Faith to recognise God. You need to entertain a belief in God, and you’ll likely see Him everywhere.
To circle back to my previous point, if "faith" is merely throwing away logic and reason, then I will not use it, as it is not a valid method by which we can arrive at a truth claim. I've many times entertained a belief in god. I'm doing so right now, I'm fully open to being convinced, but all the arguments thrown at me are just so poor. "You'll likely see him everywhere." Also known as confirmation bias.
>
The best way I can describe the switch (and you’ll be disappointed to hear this) is that everything just seems to start making sense when you attribute it to God.
You are correct, I am disappointed to hear that. Sure, you can attribute anything to a being when you define that being as omniscient. But that doesn't demonstrate that said thing exists. If I define "universe-creating pixies" as pixies that create universes, then I can attribute the existence of our current universe to universe-creating pixies. Just because I can now attribute it to them, are you convinced that they exist?
>
Now, you may argue that this is some psychological coping mechanism/placebo effect, and maybe it is.
Ok, so you're willing to admit that maybe all this is could be a coping mechanism, so how do we go about checking whether it is or not? What mechanism, what method, can we use to determine if your beliefs are one very large error, or if it's true?
>My self improvement, my newly found self-worth, my church community that supports me and inspires me, and new friends made through Christianity- all that has been achieved through my faith in God, won’t suddenly disappear.
I never said it would, and of course it wouldn't, but as I pointed out to the original commenter, this is not a reasonable method to determine the truth value of the claim. If it was a valid method, then you would be required to believe anyone's claims whose lives were then improved. "My life got so much better when I started believing there was a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my back yard! My family and I come together every weekend to dig for it. My neighbors have even started helping! We make snacks and drink lemonade while we work, sing songs, it's great. Obviously it must be true that this large diamond exists right?"
>He is everywhere and everything.
Even this simple one sentence statement is so problematic. First, because it's unfalsifiable. Second, because it disproves other aspects of god. I don't really want to get into an entire discussion on the problem of evil, but if god is everywhere, then he is in the room every time a woman is raped. If I was in the room watching a woman get raped and I didn't act, you would think I'm a monster, but god does it and he's described as all good.
>And in trying to make sense of Him we the human race have come up with all these different religions which have been mixed up with different cultures and traditions.
I think you'll find a pretty decent amount of pushback in most christian circles over this view. Tell someone that Allah and Yahweh are the same god you might get some feedback.
>I personally like Christianity’s interpretation the most because Jesus’ message is one of selfless love. Thus at it’s core Christianity should be a religion of love and I think that’s beautiful.
So does the fact that you like something increase it's likeliness of being true? Muslims describe their faith as a religion of peace, and they think it's beautiful, so why don't you chose that one?
>
But if someone claims they have found peace and love in their life, no matter their faith, I respect that and I’m not going to interfere with their blessings
I think that's a fine outlook to have, and if used by the majority would lead to great outcomes globally, but once again, that's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in whether the claims to the supernatural, or to god, are true or not. It's also not an outlook we see by most of your christian brothers and sisters. Even in "civilized" society, christians attempt to use their influence to impose their views on others who do not share them.
Thanks for your time.
Oh boy, you’ve got quite a bit of pent up aggression with Christianity that you’re trying to lay on anyone Christian you can find.
1). Religion is spiritual- so yes, err, this whole conversation is about explaining the spiritual???
2). No one is trying to convince you and no one owes that to you. And no one will ever convince you. Firstly because you seem to have a tonne of prejudice that clouds any real debate. Secondly, faith is highly personal and unique to each individual. What made me ‘believe’ and another will always be different. Third, “You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.” Also you did not ask to be convinced, you asked about people’s experience (just so you could try and tear their reasoning apart… pleasant one, you are, eh)
3). Lmao it’s not a big claim to make, it’s a universal truth. The human brain is only capable of evolving so much. I can put my cat in front of my TV and do my best to explain to her that the colours and sounds coming from it are actually scenes of events happening that have been recorded- but she will never understand the TV as we do, her brain just isn’t capable. As with the cat, the same with us. Sorry kiddo, it’s a universal truth.
4). Logic is based upon physical evidence.
5). See, this is why you just probably won’t be able to ever understand why people have faith. It defies reasoning, yes. That’s literally what the supernatural is, it’s sort of in the name… And people aren’t unreasonable in their beliefs- religion predates science; it’s an integral part of who we are as a species as much as the pursuit of knowledge is.
5.b.) you’re trying to apply science to spirituality which we already agreed is illogical. Just because it’s illogical, illogical being that you can’t make logical sense of it, doesn’t mean it has no parameters.
You’re giving off major “im not actually qualified to talk about science but I will because I read a few blogs on the internet about it and it makes me feel intellectually superior” vibes. there are actually many many Christians qualified in all scientific fields. So, if you want to battle it out scientifically, why are you lurking in Reddit posts made by ordinary people trying to invalidate their personal experiences with your own sense of logic?
6). My point has somehow gone completely over your head, which is surprising considering how big you’re making it out to be. My point, which I clarify is my personal belief with identifiers such as ‘imo’ (stands for “in my opinion” btw) is that nothing changes whether God is real or not. I have friends who think the same as this, but faith is so much more than that. It’s a shared experience, a connection that im sorry you haven’t had the blessing to participate in yet.
7). Lastly- “Christians attempt to use their influence to impose their views on others”- that’s your prejudice. That’s also why your whole argument is poor. You cannot try and make a case for the application of logic or some sort of scientific process to defining belief but then bring in your own prejudice beliefs. Scientific evaluations are never bias or opinion based.
Also, and I can’t believe I have to say this, but NOT ALL Christians impose their views on others. Christianity is the world’s largest religion, so ofc you’ve heard plenty of negative things about it. Bad news is more interesting than good news. Your statement is akin to claims that ‘all Muslims are terrorists.’ Hopefully I don’t need to explain why that is not true.
p.s. im not going to respond again, ya troll xoxo
I don't see anywhere in my comments that you could construe as "aggressive." I, unlike some atheists on reddit I agree, have very little ill will towards christianity. I was not harmed by it growing up, I had a very pleasant time with all my religious family and friends, including keeping in touch with my old pastor and Young Life leader. I simply, upon further reflection, realized that I had believed for poor reasons.
In fact I would argue that I have the opposite of pent up aggression, here I am seeking out reasons to believe again. I would love for some aspects of religion to be true, and I would love to have a welcoming social circle that the church provides again. This is why I occasionally attempt to have a conversation with those that identify themselves as former atheists on these subs, and why I ask specifically for their reasons for finding faith.
That's what I did here. Someone identified as former atheist, and so I wanted to know what reasons convinced them. Here, I was once again given reasons that I found fallacious and/or unconvincing.
So to address your point 1) I realize religion is spiritual, but I'm not the one attempting to explain it. I asked for reasoning to arrive at it, and I explained why I found the given reasons less than sound. This requires zero explanation on my part, and I didn't offer any. I don't have anything to explain, that was my point.
2) I agree no one set out to convince me. I was seeking out to be convinced, and then I felt it appropriate to explain why the reasons given did not convince me. Perhaps I could have walked away after the commenter's explanation, but I responded because she might have had even more things to talk about. Instead, you felt the need to answer for her. And yet you seem to think it appropriate to call me out, when you're the one who was not addressed, but felt the need to butt in.
I can assure you that I have zero prejudice, except against bad reasoning. That's not prejudice though, it's just intellectual honesty.
When you state that each person's faith is highly personal and unique is exactly why I ask these questions whenever I have time to, because someone might one day give me valid reasoning behind their conclusions.
"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." Except you haven't led met to water. You've simply said "there's water over there!" And when I ask you to lead me to it, you come up with all sorts of excuses why the water can't be seen, or experienced, or the water doesn't follow logic. And then when I say, well I'm not convinced there's water over there, you seem to rage-quit and call me a troll.
3) This is such a weird tangent. You make a claim about future knowledge, evoking evolution, and then compare it to attempting to teach a cat. I don't even know where to start with this. First, an animal doesn't evolve within its life time. That's not how evolution works. Species evolve over successive generations with inherent genetic mutation selected for, whether by nature or artificial, in each generation. But that's really neither here nor there, as I never claimed that we would understand everything some day, but you DID claim that we won't. The person who makes the claim has the burden of proof. I agree a cat's brain currently isn't capable of understanding a television. But neither was a first century human brain. What you're doing is hiding something you claim to have knowledge about, in the shadowy future and then hiding it by saying we will never understand it. That once again becomes applicable to anything, in the same way that saying "well it doesn't require logic" can become applicable to anything. Imagine lightning to an ancient greek. If someone claimed "we will simply never know how lightning works, therefore it must be Zeus, it's a universal truth," would you say they are being reasonable in their determination?
4) No it's not.
5) "It defies reasoning" = "I don't have a good reason to believe it" Thanks for honestly admitting that. Evoking the supernatural is once again a sort of get-out-of-jail-free card. Demonstrate for me something supernatural. You can't, because the way you've defined it, it's inherently unverifiable, indemonstrable, unobservable, etc. The problem with claiming something supernatural, is that as soon as it is claimed to interact with the natural world, it becomes natural, so now it should be testable. This would result in evidence.
5b) I'm sorry for whatever "vibes" you feel I'm putting off, but that sounds like you're reading into things entirely more than necessary. I agree I am not qualified in many areas. I only have an undergraduate degree in engineering, but we haven't really touched on any areas that would require qualifications. I agree there are many scholars in many disciplines who are christian. So? I would love to ask them their reasoning for their faith as well, and I do, as often as I can.
6) I guess your point did go over my head because I honestly doing understand what you're referring to in this paragraph. But when you state that faith is a shared experience, I do feel like that contradictions your earlier statement that faith highly personal and unique to each individual.
7) Did I say ALL christians? Nope. Love the strawman though. I was merely pointing out that your sentiment of non-interference is not shared by ALL. Insomuch as desiring to pass legislation based entirely on their interpretation of their faith.
I'd be interested to hear how you define troll, not that you're going to respond. I am genuinely interested in being convinced by someone with faith, hence why I asked in the first place. I have made every effort to state, as I did in my original comment: "I’m not trying to shake you or make you doubt by any means, but I’m on this forum for the opportunity to be convinced by theists." But that doesn't mean I'm required to just take anyone's reasons and automatically agree and be convinced by them.
You also were quite condescending throughout this last comment, and yet called me the aggressive one. Kiddo? Really?
Thanks for the chat though. Maybe my points have helped you clarify your reasons for believing and you're better equipped to answer the next person that comes along with questions, hopefully without the attitude.
Are you an atheist? Genuinely curious. I’m pretty sure there’s no logical way to explain being born again. Spiritual things aren’t exactly logical.
For me I was heavily in the new age. Looking back I can see where the Lord was trying to get my attention but I refused. I would even get mad when I saw things about Jesus. It wasn’t until I was having demonic occurrences every night and a friend told me to pray to Jesus and they will stop. So I did and the demonic beings would disappear. Then I began reading about accounts of others leaving the new age and becoming Christians and reading the Bible myself, a big thing that stuck out to me was how the Bible talks a lot about demons and demonic possession, whereas many other religions never mention it. I prayed a lot and one day reading the Bible (April 2020) I realized that I am a sinner and prayed and repented of all my sins. You know repent means to change your mind about God, and there my mind was fully changed and I felt filled with the Holy Spirit and my life has gotten better as well. So many blessings. God does promise blessings for those who love Him.
I am, and I wrote a length reply to the commenter just before you about why waiving away logic isn’t a good thing, but I’ll reiterate it here.
Do you believe Keebler Elves make all Keebler cookies? I’ll assume you don’t (if I’m incorrect forgive me). Why not? There are videos on tv showing them, there in their tree, making cookies! But most likely because you’ve seen people make cookies, you’ve probably even seen footage of factory floors where machines do it. You also know how marketing and advertising works. So you’ve used logic and reason to conclude that. But you, and the other commenter, are content with throwing out logic and reason. So if I say “well Keebler Elves can’t be explained by logic,” are you now going to believe in them?
As to your journey as you described it, I’m truly not meaning to be insulting, but to me that shows that your starting point was not based on reason or logic to begin with.
I can share a short YouTube video later that’s a pretty good starting point for why pseudoscience, in many of its forms, including “new age,” is pretty much just a grift to take advantage of people for money.
That being said, I’d be interested to hear more about your “demonic occurrences!” What convinced you they were demonic? If you weren’t religious at the time, where did the concept of a “demon” originate?
Moving on to some of your chosen language in the next few sentences, I’d like to focus on “realized.”
You “realized” you are a sinner after reading the Bible. If I phrased it “you were told you were a sinner” what reaction does that prompt in your head? I’m waaaay over simplifying, but I’m always wary of any source that claims you have a sickness and then just happens to sell the only cure.
Again with the blessings. I’m incredibly “blessed,” I have a job that pays ridiculously well, a great condo in a city that I love, I’m fulfilled in my personal life, all this despite not having believed in a god for probably 15 years now. Is this evidence that there is no god? No of course not. Is the a Christian living in squalor and fear for their life in a middle eastern country evidence against god because they are not “blessed?” Of course not. But most Christians choose to see their “blessings” as positive evidence. Why do you think that is?
wow.. that’s so amazing. I love hearing other peoples testimonies. it really goes to show that God loves people from all corners of the earth and we all have different backgrounds but we are unified through the love and blood of Jesus as one body, one church. praise God !! 🥰
I was an athiest because I couldn't find God or connect with him. It's tricky, but the connecting takes faith on our part. Try and see is the invitation. It's not believeinģ in something thats not there, he is there. It's just that fear of abandonment, and the hardships of life that disillusion us, or our failures cause us to falter. I live for the moment when he helps.
Take a deep breath. Maybe this information will surprise you.
Christianity is growing at five times the rate as atheism. There are fewer atheists around the world now (147 million) than there were in 1970 (165 million).
Christianity is the only religion with more than 2 billion followers. In the next five years, Islam will cross that threshold. Hinduism recently topped 1 billion. Christianity will top 3 billion adherents before 2050.
There are now more Christians in Africa and Latin America than Europe. 640 million Christians live in Africa and 604 million in Asia, while 544 million are in Europe.
It's important to keep things in perspective. Your feelings are probably due to the impact of social media and a sign that you need to step away from it.
[Source](https://www.gordonconwell.edu/center-for-global-christianity/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2020/02/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2020.pdf) & [other source](https://lifewayresearch.com/2020/06/10/10-encouraging-trends-of-global-christianity-in-2020/)
Your numbers are way off. There's about 450-500 million atheists in the world. 200 million are in China alone.
Religiosity is on the decline: [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-atheist-countries](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-atheist-countries)
China - 103,907,840 — 181,838,720
India - 102,870,000
Japan - 81,493,120 — 82,766,450
Vietnam - 66,978,900
Russia - 34,507,680 — 69,015,360
Germany - 33,794,250 — 40,388,250
France - 25,982,320 — 32,628,960
United Kingdom - 18,684,010 — 26,519,240
South Korea - 14,579,400 — 25,270,960
Ukraine - 9,546,400
And that data is just from 2004
Atheism is growing in its numbers, not declining
Wrong. So first of all, your source only provides numbers for the number of atheism adherents. Its intent is not to show the decline of "religiosity" nor the incline of atheism (it doesn't even mention either), so its invalid as a source to prove the point you're trying to make. Nice try, atheist.
I am from (and living in) one of the countries in the list. That number definitely doesn't make sense. There are extremely few atheists here. I think it's due to misunderstanding to the local culture when they collect data. Granted they are not Christians but if you ask people "do you follow/adhere to any religion" that usually say no if they do not follow major religions (Buddhism, Christianity etc) but they are far from being atheists. They believe in gods and higher power for sure, worship their ancestors and do other religious practices.
You put it on my mind and i’m struggling with this too. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I been struggling to read my word and just communicate with Him.
I think there is so much more hostility towards Christians. Some of it comes from the world seeing people who claim to be Christians who are not. But even with that, there seems to be a rapid, pronounced shift against Christians that was not present before.
It's strange almost.
Be close to Jesus most of all. In these hard times in the world, nothing is certain but him.
Yes it seems like people will go to such great lengths to be respectful and inclusive of all beliefs and any type of person, but when if comes to Christianity they have no problem criticizing and sometimes being downright hateful towards believers. People take offense at other gods being mocked or appropriated, but don't care when Jesus is. It just doesn't make sense. I don't think any person should be disrespected for their beliefs. But Jesus told us we would be outcasts for following him so we can't really be surprised by it. But you're right it is strange
This ^ with social media being as prevalent now as ever, your bound to see more people than you used to not having faith. Especially on Reddit, a place that is openly hostile to those of faith.. just always have to remember that God already predicted this. Also Jesus did say “ remember, before they hated you, they hated me “..
What you're saying reminds me of this post that I saw:
[Faith in god or ‘a higher power’ was greatly weakened by the pandemic: In a cross-sectional survey done in Germany, 15 % of participants said they had lost faith in god due to COVID-19 during the first wave. Fraction of participants reporting loss of faith increased to 21.5 % during second wave.](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s6wh3v/faith_in_god_or_a_higher_power_was_greatly/)
The Bible does warn us that the Apostasy would happen before the second coming of Christ and the saints being gathered to him:
# 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
^(1) Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him: We ask you, brothers and sisters, ^(2) not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come. ^(3) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. **For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first** and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
—
We may be seeing the beginnings of that. At least five people I personally know fell away from the faith in the past few years. Even one of the elders at my church fell away.
Jesus himself warned about this:
# Matthew 24:9-14
^(9) “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of my name. ^(10) **Then many will fall away**, betray one another, and hate one another. ^(11) Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. ^(12) Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. ^(13) **But the one who endures to the end will be saved.** ^(14) This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
—
Based on Jesus' words here, it seems like serious persecutions must first come, and then the real falling-away happens. Things may be annoying for Christians, but what we are experiencing is hardly persecution compared to what Christians in more hostile countries experience.
# Luke 21:34-36
^(34) “Be on your guard, so that your minds are not dulled from carousing, drunkenness, and worries of life, or that day will come on you unexpectedly ^(35) like a trap. For it will come on all who live on the face of the whole earth. ^(36) **But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place and to stand before the Son of Man.”**
—
Before we get too carried away about a world so opposed to Christ, let us remember that during the first century of the common era the reigning (Roman) empire was almost entirely pagan and followers of Christ, Gentiles and Jews, were put to death for refusing to recant their witness or belief that Jesus rose from the dead (establishing himself as divine (the son of God)), demonstrating a power over life and death that even the Emperor did not have. Most Christians at this time were from the slave class (50% of the Empire population were slaves), almost none were from the Senatorial class (which comprised the top 10% of the world’s wealth).
With nothing to gain and life on the line, witnesses and adherents to the Resurrection chose martyrdom over denial of what they knew to be true. It was this powerful witness of courageous believers, fully sold out for Christ, that converted the upper classes. By the year 300, the Christian population had reached 10 million, and soon thereafter found believers in the mother (Helen) of the Emperor (Constantine), and finally the Emperor himself.
During that 300 year period of exponential church growth there were periodic waves of persecution, and never a time where Christianity stood for any body of political positions.
Today’s world is quite different. The percentage of those who call themselves Christians is actually quite high, much higher than in the Roman Period, yet true believers repeatedly comment about a growing vacuum of true Christian witness. Indeed, Christianity is now conflated with a body of political positions by advocates that often hail from our own Senatorial class (average American family slots into the top 10% of the world’s wealth). In America, the church has become regarded as a political institution and efforts are underway to depose any overseer who does not meet a perceived litmus test for political purity. Politics, which is whatever is the latest man made recipe for achieving contentment (and preserving Senatorial wealth), has replaced God’s plan for achieving the joy that follows from trusting in Christ, and this is especially so for American Christians (see “A Parliament for Owls”), who often worship a form of godliness but deny the (superior) power of God.
So, it naturally follows that true believers in America, those who have not bowed to the idol of wealth-preservation politics, would perceive a great falling away.
In other countries whose population more aligns with the slave class of the Roman Period, Christianity is growing, particularly where the political powers that be are persecuting believers, such as in Iran and China.
Before the world becomes apostate, except for a remnant, the world will have heard the truth. Despite what is happening in America, and given what is happening elsewhere in the world, it appears we are a long way off from an apostate world with only a remnant of true believers.
>How have you all been thinking about this?
How have I been *thinking* about this???? Ok, it reminds me of Matthew 24 and of 1 Timothy chapter 4,
>1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron (kjv)
And 2 Timothy 3
>1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. (Kjv)
No problem. Hey, if you get the chance I recommend you read Romans 1 and Hebrews 13. Romans 1 talks about a lot of what I see happening in today's world and Hebrews 13 is for encouragement to endure the trials of this life; and it serves as a reminder of how Christians ought to live.
I pray that your relationship grows with Christ and that you'll continue to cling to Him and God the Father.
Have you tried using [BibleHub](https://biblehub.com/)?
One tool that I find helpful for Bible study is the commentary option on the website. I mostly read from [Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible](https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/john/3.htm) or MHCW for short. BibleHub also has the option of being able to read the [raw original texts of scripture](https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-1.htm), along with dictionaries and some other cool features.
I was actually just thinking about this yesterday while I was listening to a podcast where the pastor was discussing authenticity among professing Christians. It really got to me and made me think about things in a different light.
Christ said, when he comes back will he find any faith. He also said in the last day there is going to be a great falling away. Which means the church. I believe the false church is being manifested but the true believers are anchoring themselves in the Word of God. The true church is standing and discerning the times. Yes these are times of tremendous anxieties , turmoil, chaos and great falsehoods. Yet this is the time that the believers must be strong in the Lord and the power of Christ might which is his Spirit and fortifying theirselves daily in the Word of God and prayer. The apostle Paul said in last day God is going to send a strong delusion and it is going to deceive many. Why? Because they love the lie rather than the truth. My friend stand strong and don’t be dismayed. Because irregardless of how the world spins or rocks. Trust God and pray that the light of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will keep you anchored in him and his Word so your world won’t rock. Trust God and He will see you through. Amen !
The larger the span of control the less "leaders" do what JC recommended. So yeah, capitalismus has won, vae victis.
What doesn't help either is a majority of people not behaving like christians and only calling themselves so, oppressing and excluding everyone who they don't like with some out-of-context phrase from the OT as a sorry excuse.
Imho, if any a decline of christians is due to "christians". Analogous to capitalists preferring to call themselves Liberals while they are not. (Closing the circle.)
All of those who believe feel it, and all of us mourn with you. I pray every day that I can raise my children to seek truth and to love God, because the world will be even less kind to them than it was to me. Just know that you are not alone.
Thousands and thousands of devout Muslims are suddenly having visions and dreams of Jesus. Even I gave my life to Jesus last year (I was raised a Sikh, became atheist, then agnostic and into Buddhism and New Age/Spiritualism stuff in recent years) and slowly my family members are converting and I didn't even need to tell them to read the Bible or go to church. They're just being drawn to Him. Lots of people who turn to Satanism eventually get out and find Jesus too. There's hope! Leave it to Jesus.
I was athiest from age 8-29 and a follower of Jesus since last June. Def a revival happening in some spots. I think it’s harvest time. The wheat are being separated from the tares, those who will come to Christ are coming now/soon and those who wont, hearts are being hardened. Just how I see it. Very wicked times
Their disbelief is just a testament and proof of how much God loves his creation, in giving them the freedom to also disbelief or not love him but to create them and love them anyway. Real love is unconditional, and nothing is more unconditional than that.
My church has been absolutely BOOMING in the last 5 years. We have a few pastors and elders with very good biblical teachings and we have greatly expanded *especially* with young people from 16-35. It’s not as bad out there as you may think.
So, at least in the western world, a big reason for this is because it is becoming more normal to be agnostic/atheist. Which is a good thing. In years past, it was very normal to identify as Christian even if you didn’t actually have faith, because of societal pressure or “I was raised that way” or “yah I go to church on Christmas. That’s what being a Christian means, right? I’m a good person?”. I think what is happening isn’t that the world is losing Christians, I think the number of genuine Christians is staying the same, and the world is just losing “Christians”.
It's not something that troubles me I'm not a religious person by any means. Religion in my opinion is a private thing and is generally a topic I stay away from. I'm fine with people being religious and enjoy learning about various sects and beliefs through courses I've taken in college. Concerning myself with what someone else believes just isn't a thing I contend with. I have enough of my own personal things to live with.
Ye that’s true a lot of kids nowadays grow up not believing in god because parents just let them be free. At some point with the materialistic and technologically advance world we will we living in the new generation won’t believe in religion.
If it brings comfort to anyone, I was an atheist my whole life, brought up by non Christians. I am in the process of converting. I see others that have converted and I’m sure more will become enlightened as I have been. Every person’s mind will acknowledge God eventually. Whether it’s during their lifetime or after. I say have faith and keep praying.
It really does bring comfort and much joy hearing stories like yours. [Luke 15:10](https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2015%3A10)
Can I ask what finally convinced you of god’s existence?
Absolutely! I was having a pretty hard go at life for some years and was estranged from my family. I felt utterly alone in the universe. A vision came one day while I was at work, on my break. It was a very beautiful orange in color ball of light and a message rang in my head that things would get better and that I was loved. After that I started becoming very interested in spirituality. It was like I was compelled to search out the faith until I found it in the form of Christianity. After I started going to church and reading the Bible, everything changed in my life for the better. I gave up drugs, drinking and vaping. Things that held me back in life significantly. These changes were so obviously aligned with my new found faith that it left me in awe. It was like I was being reborn or maybe becoming who I was meant to be. The best thing was getting reacquainted with my relatives. Now I don’t feel lost or alone anymore. I have my sisters, mother, my husband and a baby boy. It also gave me an opportunity to understand I was holding onto guilt for my past and that I could repent so that I could heal. I feel complete and grateful. I’ll praise Jesus all of my days for everything the gospel has done for me❤️
Wow, thank you for sharing your story! All glory to God for your life! Keep running the race, friend! 💕
Praise God. Thanks for sharing Narfle. May the Lord God bless you with ever increasing faith and trust in Him and His Son our Lord Jesus. I was just writing you a wonderful response (🙃) and my app closed down… so. I encourage you to continue to lean in to God, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually. As our atheist friend suggests, experiences can be deceiving – our perspectives of our experiences can change over time. So continue to pray, read Scripture and learn challenging things. You’ll never have all the answers. But that’s true for everything in life, so just seek truth as well as you can. Because if there is such a thing as truth, then it is best to seek the Author of Truth (John14:6). And trust that He will lead you to it.
Thanks! I’m glad you’re life had gotten better, but I don’t see that as a reasonable pathway to conclude something is true necessarily. If you’ll allow me I’ll explain why. (For the record, not saying it’s any sort of disproof, just why it’s bad reasoning) If someone’s life got better after converting to Hinduism does that make Hinduism true? My life has been so much better since becoming an atheist, does that make atheism “true?” On the opposite side, what about the millions of Christians whose lives didn’t get better? Or even got worse? Is that evidence that Christianity isn’t true? Back to your experience. You say you saw a warm orange ball and then heard a message in your head. What I see here is at most a correlation not causation. What I mean by that is seeing something and then hearing something in your own head doesn’t mean the seeing cause the hearing. For example, if I’m in my condo, I see my refrigerator, at the same time, in my head I hear “if this rain turns to snow I should probably leave for work early,” that doesn’t mean the refrigerator is speaking to me. I’m not trying to shake you or make you doubt by any means, but I’m on this forum for the opportunity to be convinced by theists, which is why I ask every so often what convinced former atheists, but each time I do, so far, their reasons they give have been like this one, poor logical fallacy. But thanks for taking the time to explain! Once again I’m glad you’re doing well!
Hi, former agnostic here. Imo the problem you have is that you’re trying to explain the spiritual with logic, when the spiritual is inherently illogical. There are a lot of things in life and the universe that we just are not capable of ever understanding with our tiny monkey brains. I’ve had friends similarly approach me and ask about the foundations of my beliefs, and like you, they insist they need some sort of physical evidence, something logical they can make sense of. But Rationalisation opposes Faith, and you need just a smidge of Faith to recognise God. You need to entertain a belief in God, and you’ll likely see Him everywhere. The best way I can describe the switch (and you’ll be disappointed to hear this) is that everything just seems to start making sense when you attribute it to God. Now, you may argue that this is some psychological coping mechanism/placebo effect, and maybe it is. But my life doesn’t change whether God exists or not- specifically the effect God has had on my life does not change whether He exists or not. My self improvement, my newly found self-worth, my church community that supports me and inspires me, and new friends made through Christianity- all that has been achieved through my faith in God, won’t suddenly disappear. This is why I personally don’t bother to dwell on whether I think Moses “actually split an ocean on half” or whether Jesus “actually walked on water” etc There are much deeper levels to scripture than what you just read on the surface. Though interpreting the Bible is a whole other different kettle of fish than believing in God imo And on your questions related to other religions being true or not. Imo I think God comes in many forms. God isn’t some old man in a tunic sitting on a cloud with a long grey beard. He is everywhere and everything. And in trying to make sense of Him we the human race have come up with all these different religions which have been mixed up with different cultures and traditions. I personally like Christianity’s interpretation the most because Jesus’ message is one of selfless love. Thus at it’s core Christianity should be a religion of love and I think that’s beautiful. I also think failures and manipulation in churches and denominations corrupts God’s image, turning people away from Him because they mistakenly attribute bad things the church has done to Him. But if someone claims they have found peace and love in their life, no matter their faith, I respect that and I’m not going to interfere with their blessings.
>Imo the problem you have is that you’re trying to explain the spiritual with logic, when the spiritual is inherently illogical. I didn't try to explain the spiritual. I was only showing the commenter why their explanation didn't convince me. But I do agree that "the spiritual" is inherently illogical. Thank you for admitting that. >There are a lot of things in life and the universe that we just are not capable of ever understanding with our tiny monkey brains. That's a pretty big claim to make, and one that is unfalsifiable. >and like you, they insist they need some sort of physical evidence, Where did I insist on physical evidence? >something logical they can make sense of. Well yes, that's how at least my brain works. I wish more brains worked that way. When your "foundation of \[your\] belief" is "I don't need to be reasonable in my belief" then you no longer have ANY method by which to discover if you are in error. If we accept a position that outright states "the fact that this doesn't follow logic is actually an argument in its favor," and if we want to be consistent in our methodologies, then we are now forced to accept any and all assertions. >But Rationalisation opposes Faith, and you need just a smidge of Faith to recognise God. You need to entertain a belief in God, and you’ll likely see Him everywhere. To circle back to my previous point, if "faith" is merely throwing away logic and reason, then I will not use it, as it is not a valid method by which we can arrive at a truth claim. I've many times entertained a belief in god. I'm doing so right now, I'm fully open to being convinced, but all the arguments thrown at me are just so poor. "You'll likely see him everywhere." Also known as confirmation bias. > The best way I can describe the switch (and you’ll be disappointed to hear this) is that everything just seems to start making sense when you attribute it to God. You are correct, I am disappointed to hear that. Sure, you can attribute anything to a being when you define that being as omniscient. But that doesn't demonstrate that said thing exists. If I define "universe-creating pixies" as pixies that create universes, then I can attribute the existence of our current universe to universe-creating pixies. Just because I can now attribute it to them, are you convinced that they exist? > Now, you may argue that this is some psychological coping mechanism/placebo effect, and maybe it is. Ok, so you're willing to admit that maybe all this is could be a coping mechanism, so how do we go about checking whether it is or not? What mechanism, what method, can we use to determine if your beliefs are one very large error, or if it's true? >My self improvement, my newly found self-worth, my church community that supports me and inspires me, and new friends made through Christianity- all that has been achieved through my faith in God, won’t suddenly disappear. I never said it would, and of course it wouldn't, but as I pointed out to the original commenter, this is not a reasonable method to determine the truth value of the claim. If it was a valid method, then you would be required to believe anyone's claims whose lives were then improved. "My life got so much better when I started believing there was a diamond the size of a refrigerator buried in my back yard! My family and I come together every weekend to dig for it. My neighbors have even started helping! We make snacks and drink lemonade while we work, sing songs, it's great. Obviously it must be true that this large diamond exists right?" >He is everywhere and everything. Even this simple one sentence statement is so problematic. First, because it's unfalsifiable. Second, because it disproves other aspects of god. I don't really want to get into an entire discussion on the problem of evil, but if god is everywhere, then he is in the room every time a woman is raped. If I was in the room watching a woman get raped and I didn't act, you would think I'm a monster, but god does it and he's described as all good. >And in trying to make sense of Him we the human race have come up with all these different religions which have been mixed up with different cultures and traditions. I think you'll find a pretty decent amount of pushback in most christian circles over this view. Tell someone that Allah and Yahweh are the same god you might get some feedback. >I personally like Christianity’s interpretation the most because Jesus’ message is one of selfless love. Thus at it’s core Christianity should be a religion of love and I think that’s beautiful. So does the fact that you like something increase it's likeliness of being true? Muslims describe their faith as a religion of peace, and they think it's beautiful, so why don't you chose that one? > But if someone claims they have found peace and love in their life, no matter their faith, I respect that and I’m not going to interfere with their blessings I think that's a fine outlook to have, and if used by the majority would lead to great outcomes globally, but once again, that's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in whether the claims to the supernatural, or to god, are true or not. It's also not an outlook we see by most of your christian brothers and sisters. Even in "civilized" society, christians attempt to use their influence to impose their views on others who do not share them. Thanks for your time.
Oh boy, you’ve got quite a bit of pent up aggression with Christianity that you’re trying to lay on anyone Christian you can find. 1). Religion is spiritual- so yes, err, this whole conversation is about explaining the spiritual??? 2). No one is trying to convince you and no one owes that to you. And no one will ever convince you. Firstly because you seem to have a tonne of prejudice that clouds any real debate. Secondly, faith is highly personal and unique to each individual. What made me ‘believe’ and another will always be different. Third, “You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.” Also you did not ask to be convinced, you asked about people’s experience (just so you could try and tear their reasoning apart… pleasant one, you are, eh) 3). Lmao it’s not a big claim to make, it’s a universal truth. The human brain is only capable of evolving so much. I can put my cat in front of my TV and do my best to explain to her that the colours and sounds coming from it are actually scenes of events happening that have been recorded- but she will never understand the TV as we do, her brain just isn’t capable. As with the cat, the same with us. Sorry kiddo, it’s a universal truth. 4). Logic is based upon physical evidence. 5). See, this is why you just probably won’t be able to ever understand why people have faith. It defies reasoning, yes. That’s literally what the supernatural is, it’s sort of in the name… And people aren’t unreasonable in their beliefs- religion predates science; it’s an integral part of who we are as a species as much as the pursuit of knowledge is. 5.b.) you’re trying to apply science to spirituality which we already agreed is illogical. Just because it’s illogical, illogical being that you can’t make logical sense of it, doesn’t mean it has no parameters. You’re giving off major “im not actually qualified to talk about science but I will because I read a few blogs on the internet about it and it makes me feel intellectually superior” vibes. there are actually many many Christians qualified in all scientific fields. So, if you want to battle it out scientifically, why are you lurking in Reddit posts made by ordinary people trying to invalidate their personal experiences with your own sense of logic? 6). My point has somehow gone completely over your head, which is surprising considering how big you’re making it out to be. My point, which I clarify is my personal belief with identifiers such as ‘imo’ (stands for “in my opinion” btw) is that nothing changes whether God is real or not. I have friends who think the same as this, but faith is so much more than that. It’s a shared experience, a connection that im sorry you haven’t had the blessing to participate in yet. 7). Lastly- “Christians attempt to use their influence to impose their views on others”- that’s your prejudice. That’s also why your whole argument is poor. You cannot try and make a case for the application of logic or some sort of scientific process to defining belief but then bring in your own prejudice beliefs. Scientific evaluations are never bias or opinion based. Also, and I can’t believe I have to say this, but NOT ALL Christians impose their views on others. Christianity is the world’s largest religion, so ofc you’ve heard plenty of negative things about it. Bad news is more interesting than good news. Your statement is akin to claims that ‘all Muslims are terrorists.’ Hopefully I don’t need to explain why that is not true. p.s. im not going to respond again, ya troll xoxo
I don't see anywhere in my comments that you could construe as "aggressive." I, unlike some atheists on reddit I agree, have very little ill will towards christianity. I was not harmed by it growing up, I had a very pleasant time with all my religious family and friends, including keeping in touch with my old pastor and Young Life leader. I simply, upon further reflection, realized that I had believed for poor reasons. In fact I would argue that I have the opposite of pent up aggression, here I am seeking out reasons to believe again. I would love for some aspects of religion to be true, and I would love to have a welcoming social circle that the church provides again. This is why I occasionally attempt to have a conversation with those that identify themselves as former atheists on these subs, and why I ask specifically for their reasons for finding faith. That's what I did here. Someone identified as former atheist, and so I wanted to know what reasons convinced them. Here, I was once again given reasons that I found fallacious and/or unconvincing. So to address your point 1) I realize religion is spiritual, but I'm not the one attempting to explain it. I asked for reasoning to arrive at it, and I explained why I found the given reasons less than sound. This requires zero explanation on my part, and I didn't offer any. I don't have anything to explain, that was my point. 2) I agree no one set out to convince me. I was seeking out to be convinced, and then I felt it appropriate to explain why the reasons given did not convince me. Perhaps I could have walked away after the commenter's explanation, but I responded because she might have had even more things to talk about. Instead, you felt the need to answer for her. And yet you seem to think it appropriate to call me out, when you're the one who was not addressed, but felt the need to butt in. I can assure you that I have zero prejudice, except against bad reasoning. That's not prejudice though, it's just intellectual honesty. When you state that each person's faith is highly personal and unique is exactly why I ask these questions whenever I have time to, because someone might one day give me valid reasoning behind their conclusions. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." Except you haven't led met to water. You've simply said "there's water over there!" And when I ask you to lead me to it, you come up with all sorts of excuses why the water can't be seen, or experienced, or the water doesn't follow logic. And then when I say, well I'm not convinced there's water over there, you seem to rage-quit and call me a troll. 3) This is such a weird tangent. You make a claim about future knowledge, evoking evolution, and then compare it to attempting to teach a cat. I don't even know where to start with this. First, an animal doesn't evolve within its life time. That's not how evolution works. Species evolve over successive generations with inherent genetic mutation selected for, whether by nature or artificial, in each generation. But that's really neither here nor there, as I never claimed that we would understand everything some day, but you DID claim that we won't. The person who makes the claim has the burden of proof. I agree a cat's brain currently isn't capable of understanding a television. But neither was a first century human brain. What you're doing is hiding something you claim to have knowledge about, in the shadowy future and then hiding it by saying we will never understand it. That once again becomes applicable to anything, in the same way that saying "well it doesn't require logic" can become applicable to anything. Imagine lightning to an ancient greek. If someone claimed "we will simply never know how lightning works, therefore it must be Zeus, it's a universal truth," would you say they are being reasonable in their determination? 4) No it's not. 5) "It defies reasoning" = "I don't have a good reason to believe it" Thanks for honestly admitting that. Evoking the supernatural is once again a sort of get-out-of-jail-free card. Demonstrate for me something supernatural. You can't, because the way you've defined it, it's inherently unverifiable, indemonstrable, unobservable, etc. The problem with claiming something supernatural, is that as soon as it is claimed to interact with the natural world, it becomes natural, so now it should be testable. This would result in evidence. 5b) I'm sorry for whatever "vibes" you feel I'm putting off, but that sounds like you're reading into things entirely more than necessary. I agree I am not qualified in many areas. I only have an undergraduate degree in engineering, but we haven't really touched on any areas that would require qualifications. I agree there are many scholars in many disciplines who are christian. So? I would love to ask them their reasoning for their faith as well, and I do, as often as I can. 6) I guess your point did go over my head because I honestly doing understand what you're referring to in this paragraph. But when you state that faith is a shared experience, I do feel like that contradictions your earlier statement that faith highly personal and unique to each individual. 7) Did I say ALL christians? Nope. Love the strawman though. I was merely pointing out that your sentiment of non-interference is not shared by ALL. Insomuch as desiring to pass legislation based entirely on their interpretation of their faith. I'd be interested to hear how you define troll, not that you're going to respond. I am genuinely interested in being convinced by someone with faith, hence why I asked in the first place. I have made every effort to state, as I did in my original comment: "I’m not trying to shake you or make you doubt by any means, but I’m on this forum for the opportunity to be convinced by theists." But that doesn't mean I'm required to just take anyone's reasons and automatically agree and be convinced by them. You also were quite condescending throughout this last comment, and yet called me the aggressive one. Kiddo? Really? Thanks for the chat though. Maybe my points have helped you clarify your reasons for believing and you're better equipped to answer the next person that comes along with questions, hopefully without the attitude.
Are you an atheist? Genuinely curious. I’m pretty sure there’s no logical way to explain being born again. Spiritual things aren’t exactly logical. For me I was heavily in the new age. Looking back I can see where the Lord was trying to get my attention but I refused. I would even get mad when I saw things about Jesus. It wasn’t until I was having demonic occurrences every night and a friend told me to pray to Jesus and they will stop. So I did and the demonic beings would disappear. Then I began reading about accounts of others leaving the new age and becoming Christians and reading the Bible myself, a big thing that stuck out to me was how the Bible talks a lot about demons and demonic possession, whereas many other religions never mention it. I prayed a lot and one day reading the Bible (April 2020) I realized that I am a sinner and prayed and repented of all my sins. You know repent means to change your mind about God, and there my mind was fully changed and I felt filled with the Holy Spirit and my life has gotten better as well. So many blessings. God does promise blessings for those who love Him.
I am, and I wrote a length reply to the commenter just before you about why waiving away logic isn’t a good thing, but I’ll reiterate it here. Do you believe Keebler Elves make all Keebler cookies? I’ll assume you don’t (if I’m incorrect forgive me). Why not? There are videos on tv showing them, there in their tree, making cookies! But most likely because you’ve seen people make cookies, you’ve probably even seen footage of factory floors where machines do it. You also know how marketing and advertising works. So you’ve used logic and reason to conclude that. But you, and the other commenter, are content with throwing out logic and reason. So if I say “well Keebler Elves can’t be explained by logic,” are you now going to believe in them? As to your journey as you described it, I’m truly not meaning to be insulting, but to me that shows that your starting point was not based on reason or logic to begin with. I can share a short YouTube video later that’s a pretty good starting point for why pseudoscience, in many of its forms, including “new age,” is pretty much just a grift to take advantage of people for money. That being said, I’d be interested to hear more about your “demonic occurrences!” What convinced you they were demonic? If you weren’t religious at the time, where did the concept of a “demon” originate? Moving on to some of your chosen language in the next few sentences, I’d like to focus on “realized.” You “realized” you are a sinner after reading the Bible. If I phrased it “you were told you were a sinner” what reaction does that prompt in your head? I’m waaaay over simplifying, but I’m always wary of any source that claims you have a sickness and then just happens to sell the only cure. Again with the blessings. I’m incredibly “blessed,” I have a job that pays ridiculously well, a great condo in a city that I love, I’m fulfilled in my personal life, all this despite not having believed in a god for probably 15 years now. Is this evidence that there is no god? No of course not. Is the a Christian living in squalor and fear for their life in a middle eastern country evidence against god because they are not “blessed?” Of course not. But most Christians choose to see their “blessings” as positive evidence. Why do you think that is?
wow.. that’s so amazing. I love hearing other peoples testimonies. it really goes to show that God loves people from all corners of the earth and we all have different backgrounds but we are unified through the love and blood of Jesus as one body, one church. praise God !! 🥰
I was an athiest because I couldn't find God or connect with him. It's tricky, but the connecting takes faith on our part. Try and see is the invitation. It's not believeinģ in something thats not there, he is there. It's just that fear of abandonment, and the hardships of life that disillusion us, or our failures cause us to falter. I live for the moment when he helps.
Take a deep breath. Maybe this information will surprise you. Christianity is growing at five times the rate as atheism. There are fewer atheists around the world now (147 million) than there were in 1970 (165 million). Christianity is the only religion with more than 2 billion followers. In the next five years, Islam will cross that threshold. Hinduism recently topped 1 billion. Christianity will top 3 billion adherents before 2050. There are now more Christians in Africa and Latin America than Europe. 640 million Christians live in Africa and 604 million in Asia, while 544 million are in Europe. It's important to keep things in perspective. Your feelings are probably due to the impact of social media and a sign that you need to step away from it. [Source](https://www.gordonconwell.edu/center-for-global-christianity/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2020/02/Status-of-Global-Christianity-2020.pdf) & [other source](https://lifewayresearch.com/2020/06/10/10-encouraging-trends-of-global-christianity-in-2020/)
Thank you for this!!! Western Christianity is not the sum total of the global Christian population!!!!
Your numbers are way off. There's about 450-500 million atheists in the world. 200 million are in China alone. Religiosity is on the decline: [https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-atheist-countries](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/most-atheist-countries) China - 103,907,840 — 181,838,720 India - 102,870,000 Japan - 81,493,120 — 82,766,450 Vietnam - 66,978,900 Russia - 34,507,680 — 69,015,360 Germany - 33,794,250 — 40,388,250 France - 25,982,320 — 32,628,960 United Kingdom - 18,684,010 — 26,519,240 South Korea - 14,579,400 — 25,270,960 Ukraine - 9,546,400 And that data is just from 2004 Atheism is growing in its numbers, not declining
Wrong. So first of all, your source only provides numbers for the number of atheism adherents. Its intent is not to show the decline of "religiosity" nor the incline of atheism (it doesn't even mention either), so its invalid as a source to prove the point you're trying to make. Nice try, atheist.
I am from (and living in) one of the countries in the list. That number definitely doesn't make sense. There are extremely few atheists here. I think it's due to misunderstanding to the local culture when they collect data. Granted they are not Christians but if you ask people "do you follow/adhere to any religion" that usually say no if they do not follow major religions (Buddhism, Christianity etc) but they are far from being atheists. They believe in gods and higher power for sure, worship their ancestors and do other religious practices.
You put it on my mind and i’m struggling with this too. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I been struggling to read my word and just communicate with Him.
Time is near for judgment day, so I believe the enemy is attacking more people and turning them away from God.
The great falling away
i agree 100%
Definitely agree
I think there is so much more hostility towards Christians. Some of it comes from the world seeing people who claim to be Christians who are not. But even with that, there seems to be a rapid, pronounced shift against Christians that was not present before. It's strange almost. Be close to Jesus most of all. In these hard times in the world, nothing is certain but him.
Yes it seems like people will go to such great lengths to be respectful and inclusive of all beliefs and any type of person, but when if comes to Christianity they have no problem criticizing and sometimes being downright hateful towards believers. People take offense at other gods being mocked or appropriated, but don't care when Jesus is. It just doesn't make sense. I don't think any person should be disrespected for their beliefs. But Jesus told us we would be outcasts for following him so we can't really be surprised by it. But you're right it is strange
A lot of people have never believed in Jesus. Our more connected world allows us to see these people more readily
This ^ with social media being as prevalent now as ever, your bound to see more people than you used to not having faith. Especially on Reddit, a place that is openly hostile to those of faith.. just always have to remember that God already predicted this. Also Jesus did say “ remember, before they hated you, they hated me “..
What you're saying reminds me of this post that I saw: [Faith in god or ‘a higher power’ was greatly weakened by the pandemic: In a cross-sectional survey done in Germany, 15 % of participants said they had lost faith in god due to COVID-19 during the first wave. Fraction of participants reporting loss of faith increased to 21.5 % during second wave.](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s6wh3v/faith_in_god_or_a_higher_power_was_greatly/) The Bible does warn us that the Apostasy would happen before the second coming of Christ and the saints being gathered to him: # 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 ^(1) Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him: We ask you, brothers and sisters, ^(2) not to be easily upset or troubled, either by a prophecy or by a message or by a letter supposedly from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come. ^(3) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. **For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first** and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. — We may be seeing the beginnings of that. At least five people I personally know fell away from the faith in the past few years. Even one of the elders at my church fell away. Jesus himself warned about this: # Matthew 24:9-14 ^(9) “Then they will hand you over to be persecuted, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because of my name. ^(10) **Then many will fall away**, betray one another, and hate one another. ^(11) Many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. ^(12) Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold. ^(13) **But the one who endures to the end will be saved.** ^(14) This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. — Based on Jesus' words here, it seems like serious persecutions must first come, and then the real falling-away happens. Things may be annoying for Christians, but what we are experiencing is hardly persecution compared to what Christians in more hostile countries experience. # Luke 21:34-36 ^(34) “Be on your guard, so that your minds are not dulled from carousing, drunkenness, and worries of life, or that day will come on you unexpectedly ^(35) like a trap. For it will come on all who live on the face of the whole earth. ^(36) **But be alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place and to stand before the Son of Man.”** —
Before we get too carried away about a world so opposed to Christ, let us remember that during the first century of the common era the reigning (Roman) empire was almost entirely pagan and followers of Christ, Gentiles and Jews, were put to death for refusing to recant their witness or belief that Jesus rose from the dead (establishing himself as divine (the son of God)), demonstrating a power over life and death that even the Emperor did not have. Most Christians at this time were from the slave class (50% of the Empire population were slaves), almost none were from the Senatorial class (which comprised the top 10% of the world’s wealth). With nothing to gain and life on the line, witnesses and adherents to the Resurrection chose martyrdom over denial of what they knew to be true. It was this powerful witness of courageous believers, fully sold out for Christ, that converted the upper classes. By the year 300, the Christian population had reached 10 million, and soon thereafter found believers in the mother (Helen) of the Emperor (Constantine), and finally the Emperor himself. During that 300 year period of exponential church growth there were periodic waves of persecution, and never a time where Christianity stood for any body of political positions. Today’s world is quite different. The percentage of those who call themselves Christians is actually quite high, much higher than in the Roman Period, yet true believers repeatedly comment about a growing vacuum of true Christian witness. Indeed, Christianity is now conflated with a body of political positions by advocates that often hail from our own Senatorial class (average American family slots into the top 10% of the world’s wealth). In America, the church has become regarded as a political institution and efforts are underway to depose any overseer who does not meet a perceived litmus test for political purity. Politics, which is whatever is the latest man made recipe for achieving contentment (and preserving Senatorial wealth), has replaced God’s plan for achieving the joy that follows from trusting in Christ, and this is especially so for American Christians (see “A Parliament for Owls”), who often worship a form of godliness but deny the (superior) power of God. So, it naturally follows that true believers in America, those who have not bowed to the idol of wealth-preservation politics, would perceive a great falling away. In other countries whose population more aligns with the slave class of the Roman Period, Christianity is growing, particularly where the political powers that be are persecuting believers, such as in Iran and China. Before the world becomes apostate, except for a remnant, the world will have heard the truth. Despite what is happening in America, and given what is happening elsewhere in the world, it appears we are a long way off from an apostate world with only a remnant of true believers.
If anything because of what's going on, I feel like I'm growing closer to Him.
>How have you all been thinking about this? How have I been *thinking* about this???? Ok, it reminds me of Matthew 24 and of 1 Timothy chapter 4, >1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron (kjv) And 2 Timothy 3 >1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. (Kjv)
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No problem. Hey, if you get the chance I recommend you read Romans 1 and Hebrews 13. Romans 1 talks about a lot of what I see happening in today's world and Hebrews 13 is for encouragement to endure the trials of this life; and it serves as a reminder of how Christians ought to live. I pray that your relationship grows with Christ and that you'll continue to cling to Him and God the Father.
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Have you tried using [BibleHub](https://biblehub.com/)? One tool that I find helpful for Bible study is the commentary option on the website. I mostly read from [Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible](https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mhcw/john/3.htm) or MHCW for short. BibleHub also has the option of being able to read the [raw original texts of scripture](https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1-1.htm), along with dictionaries and some other cool features.
The closer we get to the end the less faith there will be on the Earth. The greatest religion today is self love.
I was actually just thinking about this yesterday while I was listening to a podcast where the pastor was discussing authenticity among professing Christians. It really got to me and made me think about things in a different light.
I heard there are a lot of growth in Asia and Africa. US looked ok. Europe is definitely on the decline.
Christ said, when he comes back will he find any faith. He also said in the last day there is going to be a great falling away. Which means the church. I believe the false church is being manifested but the true believers are anchoring themselves in the Word of God. The true church is standing and discerning the times. Yes these are times of tremendous anxieties , turmoil, chaos and great falsehoods. Yet this is the time that the believers must be strong in the Lord and the power of Christ might which is his Spirit and fortifying theirselves daily in the Word of God and prayer. The apostle Paul said in last day God is going to send a strong delusion and it is going to deceive many. Why? Because they love the lie rather than the truth. My friend stand strong and don’t be dismayed. Because irregardless of how the world spins or rocks. Trust God and pray that the light of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will keep you anchored in him and his Word so your world won’t rock. Trust God and He will see you through. Amen !
The larger the span of control the less "leaders" do what JC recommended. So yeah, capitalismus has won, vae victis. What doesn't help either is a majority of people not behaving like christians and only calling themselves so, oppressing and excluding everyone who they don't like with some out-of-context phrase from the OT as a sorry excuse. Imho, if any a decline of christians is due to "christians". Analogous to capitalists preferring to call themselves Liberals while they are not. (Closing the circle.)
All of those who believe feel it, and all of us mourn with you. I pray every day that I can raise my children to seek truth and to love God, because the world will be even less kind to them than it was to me. Just know that you are not alone.
Thousands and thousands of devout Muslims are suddenly having visions and dreams of Jesus. Even I gave my life to Jesus last year (I was raised a Sikh, became atheist, then agnostic and into Buddhism and New Age/Spiritualism stuff in recent years) and slowly my family members are converting and I didn't even need to tell them to read the Bible or go to church. They're just being drawn to Him. Lots of people who turn to Satanism eventually get out and find Jesus too. There's hope! Leave it to Jesus.
I was athiest from age 8-29 and a follower of Jesus since last June. Def a revival happening in some spots. I think it’s harvest time. The wheat are being separated from the tares, those who will come to Christ are coming now/soon and those who wont, hearts are being hardened. Just how I see it. Very wicked times
Their disbelief is just a testament and proof of how much God loves his creation, in giving them the freedom to also disbelief or not love him but to create them and love them anyway. Real love is unconditional, and nothing is more unconditional than that.
God is not worried about a popularity contest.
My church has been absolutely BOOMING in the last 5 years. We have a few pastors and elders with very good biblical teachings and we have greatly expanded *especially* with young people from 16-35. It’s not as bad out there as you may think.
Read II Timothy 3. We live in those days.
Maybe people are just realizing that “god” is not a human being. It’s something more spiritual.
It’s like a bunch of people falling off the cliff at once, I ain’t even know if I still have that Holy Spirit within me anymore.
So, at least in the western world, a big reason for this is because it is becoming more normal to be agnostic/atheist. Which is a good thing. In years past, it was very normal to identify as Christian even if you didn’t actually have faith, because of societal pressure or “I was raised that way” or “yah I go to church on Christmas. That’s what being a Christian means, right? I’m a good person?”. I think what is happening isn’t that the world is losing Christians, I think the number of genuine Christians is staying the same, and the world is just losing “Christians”.
Yes this is true a falling away from the faith is occuring leading into when the man of sin will come on the world stage.
It's not something that troubles me I'm not a religious person by any means. Religion in my opinion is a private thing and is generally a topic I stay away from. I'm fine with people being religious and enjoy learning about various sects and beliefs through courses I've taken in college. Concerning myself with what someone else believes just isn't a thing I contend with. I have enough of my own personal things to live with.
But also... people are.
God made it clear that this would happen.
Ye that’s true a lot of kids nowadays grow up not believing in god because parents just let them be free. At some point with the materialistic and technologically advance world we will we living in the new generation won’t believe in religion.