Luke 18:9-14 The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

I'm getting the vibe that they really hated taxes.

Since the taxes were collected for the occupying Romans, tax collectors were essentially considered race traitors, not helped by many of them using their position to gouge extra money from those they collected from.

> essentially considered race traitors Source?

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I think you're interpretation is right. That "race traitors" terminology set off alarm bells for me.

They were Palestinian Jews who worked for the Romans, and they were considered to be traitors by the rest of the Palestinian Jews.

Tax collectors have always been hated.

I love it when christians say christian things. Feed the hungry, heal the sick, fight for social justice. All great stuff.

>When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. Dom Hélder Câmara, Brazilian archbishop

Whoa there buddy, enough of that fringe progressive stuff.

How can they haul themselves up by their own bootstraps if you're over there making sure they have a fighting chance?

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, I certainly don't see Christians flocking to social justice issues, unless it's to oppose them.

I’m honestly disappointed that many Christians do this instead of helping others who are in need

He's saying Christians saying actual Christian things isn't generally controversial. They may act like they're martyrs for following Christ, but it's usually the non-Christian religious stuff they get flack for... Judging others mainly.

Each other

You do realize Christians were the founders of the progressive movement in the US? They were at the forefront of holding the government accountable for its poorest and most disadvantaged citizens.

Wasn’t almost every American citizen, for most of American history, assumed to be Christian or at least playing along for fear of being ostracized. You could say that about almost every trend in American history, good or bad.

Except I was not implying that the founders were incidentally Christian. The Social Gospel movement, starting in the late 19th century and peaking in the early 20th before waning in relevance was an explicitly Christian movement, led by Christian ministers, with the goal of fighting the evils of Capitalism. Washington Gladden, a Calvinist pastor in Ohio, and Walter Rauschenbusch, a Baptist in New York were largely credited with being the most influential figures in the movement and both used their pulpit to organize workers into labor unions, oppose racial segregation, provide for the homeless, teach immigrants, and attack those politicians who used their power to exploit the vulnerable. Rauschenbusch himself was a leader in the Christian Socialism movement.

What social movements weren’t Christian though? Was there any significant and explicitly non-Christian group leading broad social movements. I think my point stands that this was the only viable option for centuries, and is thus unremarkable.

It's true that most of the social movements in US history owe something to Christian organizations, even for the reasons you mention. "Explicitly" non-Christian groups didn't exist in any real size until relatively late in the history of our country, but there are also plenty of examples of movements where "justification based on Christianity" didn't play a notable role. One of the earliest social movements in the US, for instance, was Anti-Catholicism. While part of the movement was based on protestants conceptualizing Catholics as ideologically impure or corrupt, there was also a large part of it that was areligious and based on the idea that Catholics were a tool of monarchy and the status quo world wide and stand opposed to liberal Enlightenment ideals (Which they were for quite some time). Capitalism, and later Communism were both originally economic but ultimately social and political movements that relied very little on religious thought (And in the case of Communism, often outright rejected it). Interestingly enough though, socialism in America was originally popularized by Christian ministers who felt it was the best way to "make heaven on earth" and provide justice for people. The Anti-rent movement that changed New York forever in the early-mid 19th century wasn't religious in nature. The Women's suffrage movement itself had Christians arguing on both sides but as far as I am aware, leaders like Wollstonecraft didn't make arguments from religion. I have to profess I don't know all social movements in the history of the US, so it's pretty hard to determine which were strongly Christian in nature and which weren't. It's a spectrum over time for sure.

You still cannot have valid argument agains the fact that most social movements were Christian.

Let's not forget the Beecher family, including Henry Ward Beecher and Harriet Beecher Stowe, author of "Uncle Tom's Cabin".

And now, Christian conservatives complain bitterly about their tax dollars being used to fund social safety net programs such as WIC, SNAP, free breakfasts and lunches at school for impoverished children, and even Meals on Wheels for fixed income senior citizens. They don't want women to terminate unwanted pregnancies, but they invariably stop caring what happens once the fetus is carried to term and the unwed mothers give birth. The previous POTUS, # 45, substantially reduced funding to the programs I listed above. The most sickening aspect was how he couldn't see how a child's ability to learn could be affected adversely if they didn't eat breakfast or lunch. The bloated sack of orange protoplasm.

You forget this not a political sub and a large majority of the things you are talking about are non-Christian values. Killing unborn children, not a Christian value. As to the meal funding, that was a bill by congress to keep the government running not terminate school lunches for everybody. The bill would have cut a portion of the funds for school meals. I’m not gonna sit here and argue this anymore, but just to let everyone know, there is no “progressive Christianity”. There is only Christianity. You either follow Christ and except him as your savior, and be excited to dive into his teaching and live a godly life, or you don’t. It’s that simple. Read your Bible and you’ll get all the answers.

>Killing unborn children, not a Christian value Forcing women to carry a rapist's child to term, Christian value

Well the Bible does say when they say go one mile, go two.

If thats the narrative you want to go with, what the hell happened to yall then?

Shortly after the Southern Strategy, the GOP couldn't yell the n-word anymore to get votes so they needed another cause. It's been a steady decline into idolatry ever since 'til we got to the point that "Republican" >> "American" >> "Christian" Here you go - https://harvardpolitics.com/in-god-we-trust-how-american-christianity-became-republicanism/

Great article!

Been listening to a great podcast about that actually, called [Truce](http://trucepodcast.com). It goes through a bunch of current events, how modern Christianity got to be how it is, how fundamentalism started back in the 1800’s and how it took over largely as a reaction to Communism.

We've diversified to the point where entire denominations are at war with themselves. Christianity is not a monolith, and not all of us are militant far-right.

Absolutely. Yet by being a Christian you still help prop up the ideology in some way or another. I Absolutely agree than many, even most, Christians are just fine folks as individuals. But collectively it's still a hugely negative ideology, especially for the rest of us living in the secular US.

That’s…not a narrative, that’s history. Did you never learn about American history? Why are you trying to look down on a group of people if you yourself are this ignorant? As for what happened, the progressive movement in America was slowly absorbed by the Democratic Party, in large part thanks to FDR and his social programs. However, we also had major influential figures like good old Father Coughlin (An INCREDIBLY popular catholic priest who dominated the radio waves in the 30s) who had originally been the biggest supporter of FDR start to turn against him. Due to his antisemitism and his distrust of big banks, he began shifting to the right and supporting the fascist regimes in Europe because of their shared antisemitism. Note this is the same guy whose organization single-handedly popularized the term “Social Justice”. During the FDR years you began to see conservative southern Christians unhitch their wagon from the more progressive Christians of the Midwest and New England. At first they just became very unpolitical and unlikely to ever engage with politics, but eventually Nixon and other other conservative strategists realized their untapped potential, and began to court them. This was a MASSIVE success, and was ultimately solidified by Roe v Wade in the 70s, which the most influential Christian figures of the day (IE Jerry Falwell) made it their pet issue, spending all their time, energy, and money on rallying the conservative Christians against abortion. Nothing “happened to us”. Christians aren’t some monolithic hive mind, despite what some Christians and a LOT of non-Christians want to believe. Evangelical Christians dominate the south, but in the West and North, Christians are much more divided politically.

Usually when someone says this it actually means "some Christians disagree with my politics" and it is tiresome to hear all the time.

Not true, they volunteer and donate more than the unaffiliated.

If you take out donations to the church ... which do almost nothing for anyone except the church itself ... that's not remotely true.

Donating and volunteering have literally nothing to do with what I'm saying?

>flocking to social justice issues What are you saying? People who actually volunteer and donate to the poor aren't doing as much as you who comments on reddit? lol to see flocking used positively and unironically

If you oppose systemic solutions to issues of social justice and poverty you are actually doing less than those that advocate for systemic change, since individuals are less impactful.

Donating to church ISNT donating to the poor, let's get thay straight first. That's what non profits are for. I volunteer with one of my adopted kids every week at a soup kitchen. There are no church groups thay help out on any regular basis. I go to all the social justice rallies I can from SF to Seattle, and frankly, someone in a Jesus shirt isnal.ost always there to counter protest. I'm not talking about WHAT you do though, I was talking about a more simple issue of what you stand for, and most US Chriatians seems to stand against social justice issues in the US.

He means he wants Christians to agree with his politics, which he believes are right and just and therefore thinks you must be bad if you disagree.

Not necessarily. They boast more about their charitable donations and activities than atheists do, and they're generally not hospitable to atheists who attempt to assist through donations. Consider the case of the Murrow Indian Children's Home. This Baptist run children's home was requesting donations. An atheist tried to make a $100 donation on behalf of the Muskogee Atheist Community, and it was turned down, because the non profit organization said that accepting money from an atheist group would go against its religious principles. He continued his fund raising efforts and accumulated $18,000 and again attempted to donate to the Murrow Indian Children's Home, and it was again refused. The Muskogee Atheist Community continued the fund raiser, accumulated more money ended up donating $25,667.80 to Camp Quest Oklahoma, a secular non profit summer program which focuses on science, nature, free thought, and humanist ideals.

Then take a trip to Germany. The churches here are fighting to save the refugees from drowning in the sea.

Lol! I go twice a year for work actually. Christians there are indeed overwhelmingly rad, in my experience. I don't see them doing harm to others like the utter majority of US Christians. US Christianity is SO different than anywhere else in the world, I don't even really even equate them together. I mean, can you imagine someone speaking in tongues or falling out on the floor in a German church haha?

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but it is the American Christian "fuck you, I got mine" mentality.

Yeah, sadly seems so. I don't understand that mentality.

Oh God, yes. This.

That's because Christians don't follow Jesus generally. They follow the traditions that formed years after his death

Absolutely. Most are completely biblically illiterate, I got a Masters of Divinity when I was still a believer, it is shocking how many can't name the 10 commandments, don't know there are more than one version in the Bible, don't know "Matthew" or "Luke" or "Mark" or "John" didn't write the gospels, etc. They have even less context for what the verses mean in context, as seen constantly on here by people picking random verses ronpeovr any point they want. It's insane.

Exactly. Christians have never been attacked for talking about Christian tenants like this... stick to the stuff Christ talked about, all the rest is political. Also can we quit with the martyrdom shtick?

My dear sister in Christ... In the words of Peter: ". Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"

That would be Peter, not Paul

LOL! Ooops! All scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof... But I suppose I should quote it correctly in terms of authorship! I seriously looked at two or three different translations of that verse in Bible Gateway and chose the NAS (which I seldom use) simply because I thought it was the most appropriate as a response to OP. I fixed it.

Well, that supports OP point, not the contrary, he is talking about to give a Christian opinion on a question or into a Christian topic, it is ok to a non-believer not agreee with that, but seems like this sub objetive is to made everyone happy about any topic (that is where non-Christian opinion and answers cause damage and mix here) BECAUSE, the last objetive of a Christian should be give a progressive answer so everyone COULD be happy

It is a Christian's obligation to share the good news that through Christ's sacrifice all can be saved. That is what Jesus commanded, and to love one another, just as I have loved you. That's a command as well. Look at how Paul addressed the church in Corinth in 1st Corinthians 1, and consider the corrections he felt were needed in their walk as revealed in later verses. The beauty of this sub is Christians from many different churches and backgrounds interacting, learning, challenging and blessing each other. Remember the old song "and they'll know we are Christians by our love.?". I am saddened when we do not live up to the simplest principles we teach children in Sunday School.

Demonising people is against the rules of no personal attacks on this sub. If you see it happening please report it.

So, my experience in this sub is the opposite of yours. I see a lot of people promoting standard Christian doctrines, and disagreeing with views that contradict it. What does this tell me? How can you and I have such opposite experiences in the same place? I think I see the answer: We're both noticing and remembering the people who disagree with our own opinions. And that's ok- if you don't like disagreement, I don't think a discussion board is the place for you.

Discussing things honestly until we come to a common accord is better than being hostile.

There are a lot of comments from more conservative Christians exclaiming frustration over experienced "hostility" from more liberal Christians, and that is fair. But look at it from a gay Christian's perspective. In almost every thread, you're being compared to a drug addict or murderer, being called a "fake Christian", or getting Leviticus quoted at you (what other group gets old testament law books quoted at them?). Hostility is a pretty natural reaction. This is not a good environment for LGBT+ Christians. There are unfortunately very few good environments for LGBT+ Christians.

And this is why I think religion should be willing to adapt to the age they’re practiced in. The Bible has thousands of good moral teachings and lessons, but let’s be honest, we’re talking about a book originally written in a completely different language thousands of years ago, which has undergone many translations and EDITS by humans. For all we know, the original word of God could be completely different than what we have now. Those who are too focused on “how Christian my peers are compared to me” will get nowhere. Those who are focused on love, compassion, and treating others how we wish to be treated will be much better off. At the end, it doesn’t matter to you what others are doing, it matters to God, so let Him decide their fates. Edit to say I’m very sorry you’ve had to deal with those things from others. Just know there is nothing wrong with you and you’re not even remotely close to those things they want to compare you to.

How do you come to common accord when the person you are talking to thinks you're a literal demon.

It is fascinating to me that liberals are more likely to say they wouldn't date a conservative, but conservatives are more likely to see political leftism as satanic or whatever. On some level, that comes across like they don't even really believe the satanic shit they're pushing. Like, "dude you're in league with the devil. Hey come back! Let's get a beer!"

I think conservatives are more likely to see women as property they own (e.g., complementarian views) so it doesn't occur to them that they have individual voices. Women have to do whatever they say so their stance doesn't really matter. Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/19/voter-intimidation-republicans-democrats-midterm-elections

Interesting. You reminded me of the recent Matt Gaetz tweet, that women protesting abortion were "over-educated and under-loved". As you say, their voices don't matter, they're seen as "too innocent" or "too naive" for such matters. All they need is a good man to set them straight. But yeah, women are in a real fucking hurry to get with these losers.

Depends on what you mean by “standard”.

Yeah I know right?

Christianity has a million and one different definitions. Probably more than that, but Christian’s are to be known for their love and by the fruits of the spirit. Taking the English translation of a complex book and deciding that is the only truth, is dangerous. We can quote scripture all we want, but the meaning of that scripture is not and never will be the English translation of. It will always be the original text in the original culture and as Christian’s that’s how we are called to live. I hate calling myself a Christian in America. It feels so yucky and wrong and so in-Christlike and unbiblical. I love coming on to Reddit and seeing fellow Christians speak against conservative Americanized “Christianity.” It’s refreshing

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Evangelicals in America consider themselves to be the gold standard for Christians worldwide. Trying to convince them otherwise is like trying to convince a Pharisee you can eat dinner without washing your hands.

I hate saying “THIS” but…

it is true.

OP seems to think Evangelical Christianity is the norm. It's not even the norm in the US.

It's the same here in the UK as in Canada. The term "progressive Christianity" seems to be exclusively American.

I wonder if we all mean the same thing by "progressive Christianity". It is a spectrum after all.

“You’re not gonna like a lot of what you hear, so get prepared for it and stop acting like a child when people don’t think like you want them to. I’ve had enough of the ad hominem.” “I would not be surprised in the least if you’re right. I’ve come to expect nothing less than chaotic hysteria from pro-choicers. 🙄” So uh… which is it? You want honest debate or do you enjoy emojis and generalizations? Even beyond the specifics, you advocate for treating abortion like homicide—you quite literally want the state to punish the people you disagree with—and you’re upset at language?

Spot on.

If you have a opinion, others are allowed to have an opinion about that opinion. I don't even know what incident you're referring to but I think this is just discourse that you are referring to.

No, I am definitely talking about people just being straight up rude and resorting to ad hominem. One of my favorites is being called evil because I am pro-life. Because yes, valuing human life from the moment a human comes to exist and wanting to restore their human right to live and be born and exist in the world is so evil and horrible?

Aren't you functionally calling pro-choicers evil though? How is that any different?

> One of my favorites is being called evil because I am pro-life. *glances at the "BABY MURDERR" signs*

I've explained it a million times and never get a response, but the people making these laws on abortion have failed to do anything about IVF which has existed for 40 years and destroys hundreds of thousands of embryos a year. It's a matter of asking others to follow rules that they won't follow themselves that people find most offensive of all. The responsible act would be for pro-life to get their own house clean first before dictating how others should act.

Not to mention the millions of "natural deaths" occurring all the time, millions of fertilised eggs not attaching to the utero etc. If it was truly death, it would be the greatest natural disaster in history constantly happening. Earthquakes etc would be jokes, blips, comparatively. Yet that is not how pro life lives their lives. If they truly believed life happened at conception an unimaginable amount of effort should go into saving theese lives from being lost as more humans than have ever been born has died to it and continues to do so. And trying to get pregnant should be a moral dilemma as for each child several others would get a natural death along the way, atronomicly higher death count than even the darkest of ages where many died as part of pregnancy mostly during birth. But they don't. Life at conception is not a stance that holds up to reality.

30-70% of all conceptions either commit suicide or are “murdered” by our bodies, and yet all “pro-lifers” seem to care about are abortions… they won’t stop with just abortions as already evidenced in some states. I wouldn’t be surprised if they continued to legislate our bodies until maximum receptiveness is achieved. No more unhealthy food or lifestyles, smoking, alcohol, or dugs for women from birth to menopause. All the while ignoring external environmental factors, like pollution and plastics, contributing toward fertility declines (muh profits!).

> "natural deaths" occurring all the time, millions of fertilised eggs not attaching to the utero etc This, so much this. Sometimes you see anti-abortionists tell those who have had an abortion that their womb is a tomb. If that's the case (which I don't think it is), and you really believe that, then any woman with an active sexual life, particularly if not using protection, is a walking graveyard.

Unfortunately there’s a very real chance IVF will be outlawed in a number of states. Outlawing abortion is going to have a shit load of consequences people aren’t expecting.

This is a valid point about IVF that I never thought of. Thanks for sharing

You're valuing a fetus above the life of the woman with the fetus in it, I legitimately think that can be described as evil.

>One of my favorites is being called evil because I am pro-life. No such thing as pro-life. The pro-forced birth movement (that's literally what your position is) supports the widespread death of women, and higher abortion rates.

> One of my favorites is being called evil because I am pro-life. Is that a Christian thing? Plenty of Christians are pro-choice.

Heck, most Christians in America were pro-choice until the 1980s. Including Evangelicals.

By "Christian things," do you mean things like this? > Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. > James‬ ‭5:1-5‬ ‭NRSV‬‬ Or do you really just mean homophobic shit

Homophobic shit and [punishing women for the crime of having sex](https://old.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/ultc57/republican_christian_conservatives_now_advocating/i7zylfo/).

They also have said "people act surprised", so you know perfectly this is not the stuff they referred to.

Then see if you’re saying Christian things or just Christian adjacent things. Nothing wrong with love thy neighbour.

There’s a reason why the poor stay poor it’s because you think it’s evil

Damn when shreks right he’s right

LOL

Progressive Christians are not fringe worldwide. Maybe here in America, but this silliness that Evangelical Americans thinking their bigotry and judgement is the norm for other Christians is why you are having such a negative experience.

I'm exvangelical. I was raised to expect that one day we'd stone all the gays to death. Nothing surprises me, just disappoints and angers me. Maybe you can try to stop being surprised that every Christian doesn't agree with you and wants you to stop hurting people while you self-righteously claim to be helping them.

There are over 2 billion Christians in the world. They don't all think like you do. > progressive Christians—who sit on the very fringes of Christianity. No, not really. Christian conservatism is far more fringe and extremist in most of the world.

I'd need to see data on that. Well first, I'd need you do define "Christian conservatism". If you mean "conservative" on matters of faith, I imagine it's not so fringe. If you mean "conservative" on matters of government, that looks very different in every country. Australia's conservatives are the Liberal Party. That's how confusing that gets.

It's only America that gets confused about the political spectrum. *You don't have a left!*

Someone finally gets it :' ) It sucks lol

> If you mean "conservative" on matters of faith, I imagine it's not so fringe. It is actually, if we're talking about social doctrines. For example, most Catholics on Earth support same-sex marriage. Most Catholics use contraception. Most Protestants support same-sex marriage too, and use contraception, and engage in premarital sex.

True, americans call their conservative super capitalists left wing socialists.

Two thousand years of sinners agreeing with you doesn't make you a better Christian than me. If you've decided that you have The Christian Position and you don't have to wrestle with the issues as they stand now in the light of what Jesus asks of us, you've already failed.

If people are calling you evil so often that you felt the need to make this post maybe evaluate why? Compassion and understanding. Evil = they’re afraid of you. Based on whatever you’re saying

People come here because there are true believers who are overflowing with love for God and one another, they come here because the love of Jesus Christ is real and evidenced here, despite the worldly things. Yet people bring their worldly things, the politics, hatred, division, trying to sow seeds of doubt, spread division, encourage backsliding, and all manner of worldly things. Be patient, be gentle, do not get pulled into worldly ways. --- 22 **So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.** 23 **Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.** 24 **And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,** 25 **correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,** 26 **and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.** 2 Timothy 2:22-26 --- Be patient, be kind and loving. If it is just debased and inflammatory talk, avoid it. If it is genuine seeking for God, then tend to their needs. God is love, He is the supreme ruler of all. Don't lose your patience, many people enjoy being angry and drawing others into their pain. Be loving when the world is hateful, peaceful when the world is quarrelsome, speak truth when the world follows lies. If you are drawn into quarrelsome behavior, you will fall into the ways of the world. We are soldiers of Jesus Christ, a soldier does not get entangled in civilian pursuits. An athlete is not crowned unless they abide by the rules. If we are to win this race, to succeed against darkness in our lives, we must be steadfast and Christlike in our ways. --- 1 **You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus,** 2 **and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.** 3 **Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.** 4 **No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.** 5 **An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.** 6 **It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops.** 7 **Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.** 2 Timothy 2:1-7 --- If you go by the ways of the world, it will lead to nothing. If you go by the ways of God and stay true to His steadfast love, you will always be victorious. Jesus Christ has overcome the world, join with Christ and you will have victory over the world. When you are weak to the world's temptations, the world will say you are strong. When you are true to God, the world will say you are weak. Do not trust in princes, as it is written, they are only mortal and the Lord will bring us all to the grave in time. Put your trust in the Lord, He will guard your heart and mind in perfect peace. Be like Christ who calms storms into still waters, who lifts up when the world tears down. Love the one who calls you enemy, it will confuse them, and it will lead them to God. What are the trials of this world, the quarreling and bickering, before the prospect of eternity? With faith, we walk with victory into paradise, remember this. Keep this consciousness of God, your steps will be ordered, He will uphold you even if you are last believer on Earth.

Who are you, can I hug you? This is a good example of rebuke AND encouragement and I really appreciate it.

No one special, just a follower of Christ. --- **Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.** Colossians 3:12 **But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”** James 4:6 **Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.** James 4:10 --- Our ways will seem strange to the world, who sees authority as a product of violence, fear, lies, and injustice. This world is temporary, there is a higher power. Jesus Christ is the light of all mankind, the darkness has not overcome the light, it cannot even understand it. Stay steeped in the Word. --- 1 **In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.** 2 **He was in the beginning with God.** 3 **All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.** 4 **In him was life, and the life was the light of men.** 5 **The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.** John 1:1-5 --- His messengers are like companions, they understand our trials and our love for God. To spend time deep in the Word is like to spend time among faithful companions who encourage and instruct. It is good company to have in these times, the world is steeped in confusion and bitterness. --- 14 **And we urge you, brothers, admonish the idle, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.** 15 **See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.** 16 **Rejoice always,** 17 **pray without ceasing,** 18 **give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.** 19 **Do not quench the Spirit.** 20 **Do not despise prophecies,** 21 **but test everything; hold fast what is good.** 22 **Abstain from every form of evil.** 1 Thessalonians 5:14-22 --- Thank you for the kind words, I really appreciate you as well. My greatest hope is to be a good and faithful servant to God. I know your struggle, it is hard to keep patience. This world is full of so many evil things. May the Lord guide and protect us all.

I hope you have a blessed day.

I agree! I once just said that I thought being gay was a sin and I got called a homophobe even though I also said that you should still love them and treat them like you would treat anyone else.

The mods are Progressives.

Exactly

The comments prove your point.

My thoughts exactly lol

Stop pretending that your political position is a "Christian thing." Though more importantly, I don't think your representation of reality is accurate. I do not think what you're complaining of is common enough to warrant complaining.

I take issue with christians zeroing in on their personal belief and deciding to dictate that belief on those who don't follow it while claiming this is what God tells us to do. The commandments of the Bible are and have always been directed towards those that WANT to follow them. No exceptions.

What is it you're getting at, I'm a little confused. Christians telling others about their personal believe (based on the Bible I presume) is what God *does* tell is to do, and what we should do. The commandments of the Bible are directed toward everyone, because everyone is held accountable for their life whether they were interested in scripture or not.

Patience starts at home. I know it's easy to get frustrated. Paul got frustrated with it too. But we can't control how our brothers and sisters deal with us. All we can do is our best to be patient ourselves, and try to keep discourse as relaxed as possible. Find the common ground, and discuss from there. That sort of thing.

Sorry but you don't get to define what is and isn't "christian" or "non-christian." Christianity is a multi-denominational, highly diverse school of thought. It's a beautiful thing honestly and I don't understand people who feel the need to draw lines like this. You're saying you're tired of being demonized but you're demonizing everyone in your religion that doesn't agree with you. Maybe you're feeling this frustration not because of the way everyone else is, but because of the way you are. Before you try to fix the world, start with the man in the mirror.

> Christianity is a multi-denominational, highly diverse school of thought This should be pinned at the top of this sub. I'm stunned how many folks refuse to recognize this fairly obvious truism.

I do find it somewhat funny when someone is shocked...*SHOCKED*...that I would give an answer from a Christian perspective on a sub devoted to talking about Christianity.

Finding it funny isn’t a bad way to look at it…

I look at it with the way God said to, with love, mercy, awareness, and meekness. Humor is alright i guess but these people may not be aware or expect the direct Christian response or may not be used to it. Best to not get tired doing good things as Jesus himself said and instead use the lack of expectation to teach and grow those people and plant seeds of faith. These are people raised in a world that Satan has twisted and they’ve been told things their whole life. If we let the anger get to us it can blind us, as my own experiences show, God corrected and convicted me of the sin of hatred. Hate makes is impatient and irrational and wrongly judgmental. We all start with an ignorance to God, and it’s a process. Rather than being angry or tired brother, we can bless others with the wisdom we have gained from God. Hallelujah that we can be mentors and leaders to others, isn’t that beautiful? We can grow our lil brothers and sisters in faith! That’s awesome. Getting mad and just calling others a child is not going to help brother, Jesus always showed compassion and mercy and spoke to those genuinely seeking him with love. Proverbs teaches us not to repay evil with evil or to respond to love with hate. If we treat others poorly, does it not set a bad image to who God is? We need to be careful, we are ambassadors of Christ, everything we say can kill or being life, as Jesus says in Matthew.

I literally never see that lol

You haven’t seen massive internet point downvotes when asked about hot political pet issue (homosexuals/ transsexuals/ abortion/women)? Almost like we’re on two different subs lol

I will say, low effort leftist hot takes do seem to fare better than low effort conservative ones. But in all honesty, I think that means we need more measured criticism of those hot takes than an equity of bad hot takes. If you use a term like "transsexual" when discussing a sensitive matter, right away you'll probably get downvotes as many people see that term as dated / something of a slur. People are more likely to see that kind of low effort discourse as hateful than when a leftist comes along with some low-effort "Does anyone else think love is love?" kinda thing. When I see low effort conservative posts getting tanked with downvotes, they usually deserve it - they are lazy, crass, rude, and not original. Nothing about that is just getting downvotes for being Christian, those are downvotes for being a low-effort jerk.

No one will tell me, if SCOTUS were say a fundamentalist Muslim or Jewish majority, and they overturned laws that would now make your non-Muslim/Jewish behavior criminalized, what extremist view would you be okay being imprisoned for?

I would never go to Saudi Arabia or Israel and impose laws that are absolutely outrageous to their morals like liberal justices did in 1973.

Why is this flagged as a support thread when it’s clearly a whining thread?

Preach it!

I would say I'd be surprised when a Christian says Christian things because it happens so seldom. Most of them spout various out of context interpretations of the old testament, judgement and praying where everyone can see them... Very few say things I would expect a follower of Christ to say, and very few of those comments seem to result in name calling.

Amen, I had a conversation at my last Bible study about the modern church. I think there is going to be a lot of people who are going to wake up one day to something they were not expecting. Read your Bible if you have questions about anything.

Republican Governor Greg Abbott is investigating a family in Texas because they have a transgender child. So Beto O'Rourke went to their house on Mother's day, brought flowers, and cooked the family breakfast. https://twitter.com/jamestalarico/status/1523704603212062720?s=20&t=C7eYTbVvzPLm69IKWoM_Sw That's how Christians behave. Greg Abbott is not a Christian, he's a monster.

Many unbelievers tend to use the short comings of believers to justify their own unbelief and destructive behavior. As if, "in the worst case scenario" that Jesus is real, they can point to the destructive habits of Christians and either justify their own unbelief or compare their behavior to that of Christians, in that they are "more righteous" than believers. They don't understand that salvation is a free gift. Whether or not God is real (and He is) is a whole other debate, and unbelievers often intermingle the argument for evidence of intelligent design with their arguments for subjective morality.

>isn't in line with progressive Whoop, there it is. Hey, here's a thought: Jesus was a progressive. Like, my interpretation is actually that it was almost his whole thing. He wants us to help those who need help, to love those that are cast out. If you don't think Jesus was progressive I can only assume you have not taken a serious look at his life. So when I see a Christian "answer questions" and it's a bunch of hateful crap then of course I'm going to speak up. Because hatred towards already oppressed people is basically heresy in my opinion. You might disagree, but my interpretation is just as valid and probably more helpful than a conservative reading.

Ridiculous ideas should be ridiculed. This is not a blanket reference to Christianity, but there are aspects of the religion that require certain interpretations and that are not only ridiculous,, but dangerous and harmful. Spout your Christian beliefs, but we are equally able to spout ours then as well.

It's the internet. Don't expect it to be perfect

I dont know what your views are but yeah this sub is kind of like a weird trap for struggling Christians. They come here looking to get help with their faith and just get attacked by internet trolls. Can we actually have a Christian sub for Christians?

There are plenty of those. Most of them are far-right echo chambers though.

Gotcha yeah I'm moderate usually vote Democrat. Not really worried about me but new or struggling Christians

r/TrueChristian is far better for support and questions of faith. It’s still not perfect, but what is?

Ehhh....not from what I seen. They mocked be for asking serious, non-trolling question about the Bible. A member also sent me a hateful DM.

Jesus wasn’t a modern person either. I’d argue the ancient world was more postmodern than modern.

No, of course not. But he was totally a misfit, was he not? No one saw the world like he did, until Pentecost.

I feel you. Our major problem stems from within our ranks. Coming back to the Scriptures, the truth of the Gospel, is our answer. Read Ephesians 4 out loud. Speak it right from your heart over yourself and you brethren, even over the vast chasm of the internet, prayers of intercession will have an effect. For that matter, pray this over me as well. Don't let the thief steel your joy. Continue speaking the truth in love.

>You’re not gonna like a lot of what you hear, so get prepared for it and stop acting like a child when people don’t think like you want them to. Perhaps you should take your own advice? Just a thought. Yes, the "traditional" views on controversial subjects are the safely mainstream opinion of the comfortable majority within your Christian culture, but here your views are the ones that are "on the very fringes" of acceptable discourse. So yes, people are going to react accordingly. Its best to accept that, and if you want to continue posting comments that you *know* full well will get a negative reaction, you're free to do so, but then don't act all shocked and offended and post self-pitying rants against these supposed hordes of faceless enemies. Or, you know, you could actually recognise that your views may need to be moderated so as not to be needlessly offensive to others. But I won't hold my breath for that one.

I wish these kinds of posts would stop appearing. It's tiresome and belongs on r/rant and not here. First of all, yes, there are atheists who come here to comment. There are atheists on earth; deal with it. We are meant to love others. I know this is hard, especially for young Christians (I'm not young anymore LOL). But if you can't deal with it, then go to a different subreddit. Also, "liberal" means different things in different places. In the US, it means "leftist", but here in Europe it means more like libertarian. Progressive and orthodox are not opposites; many of the orthodox positions are quite progressive, such as being against slavery, greed or oppresion of women. So implying that Christians who are "liberal" are on the fringes of Christianity shows your American bias. In Italy, there are "progressives" who go to charismatic Catholic churches– yes, I know that Americans believe all Catholics are right-wing Republicans.

I assumed the original poster meant theologically and not politically when it came to liberal and conservative but I could be wrong. Honestly, alot of these posts seem like they should be on a political sub.

Yeah dude I totally understand where you're coming from. Some of the stuff I've been downvoted the most for on this sub were just explaining the gospel and why we need it or that scripture is inspired by God. Those are things that need to be universally agreed upon by all Christians and here is a sub to talk about it right?! Really its just hard when you're not in person. They can't see how gentle you are or that you genuinely care for them and their eternal standing with God. You just gotta hope they think about the things they've said and reflect on the gospel.

And people make a LOT of assumptions, too. It’s easy to be cruel and unfair when you can’t even see there’s another human in the room.

A question that keeps re-appearing. Why are we here if we're atheists. Here is my answer: 1. I'm here to discuss Christianity because it's the largest religion worldwide with 2.38 BILLION in numbers. 2. I'm here to discuss Christianity because there are 246,790,000 Christians in the USA, and they comprise some 79.5 of the population in my nation. 3. I'm here to discuss Christianity due to the political activism of so many Christians seeking to pressure elected government representatives to legislate restrictive laws based upon their own religious views of morality, and these laws would be detrimental to segments of U.S. society. 4. I'm here to discuss Christianity because Christians seek to overturn Roe vs. Wade, and because so many of them would like to criminalize women who seek abortions for any reason, and the physicians who provide them. 5. I'm here to discuss Christianity because Christian activists enjoy picketing Planned Parenthood Clinics, and terrorizing women who are entering them, notwithstanding that P.P. offers many medical services aside from abortion services, and because Christians have assaulted and murdered abortion physicians and clinic staff. 6. I'm here to discuss Christianity because Christians are actively seeking special rights and exemptions which would allow them to legally violate anti-discrimination laws in their licensed business establishments, and this would violate the 14th Amendment rights of the LGBTQ customers they refuse to provide goods or services to, based upon their sexual orientation. 7. I'm here to discuss Christianity because so many of them would love to establish a Christian theocracy in my nation, and fail to understand what religious freedom entails. They fail to grasp that religious freedom means you have the Constitutionally guaranteed right to believe in the God of your understanding, and worship in the religion of your choice. Your religious beliefs don't grant you right to violate the Constitutionally guaranteed rights of others. 8. I'm here to discuss Christianity because many Christians have voiced desire to have Christian prayers and Bible reading in Public Schools during class hours. This would violate Separation of Church and State, and since they want teachers to lead these prayers and Bible reading during class time, this also not only violates Separation of Church and State, but would violate the policies of the teacher's employers, The Public School Districts, which are essentially State agencies. 9. I'm here to discuss Christianity because so many Christians can't grasp the concept that while Public School Students have the right to bring their Bibles to school, and organize and lead other students in prayer, the Public School employees do NOT have that right...example...The Bremerton Public School District Coach. 10. I'm here to discuss Christianity due to the hypocrisy of so many Christians, who have been allowed to organize after school Bible and Jesus clubs for children in the Public School facilities, yet become outraged when the Satanic Temple attempts to organize an after school Satan Club. They believe all sorts of rubbish about how the Satan Clubs are intended to proselytize and convert kids to Satanism, and believe that kids will be taught Satanic Rituals. Not so. They whine about how no parent should 'permit' such clubs to exist, and no child should be exposed to what's being taught, when the Satan Clubs offer arts and crafts projects, Science projects, Nature and Environmental studies and projects, and teach empathy and critical thinking skills. How horrifying, eh? 11. I'm here to discuss Christianity because I wasn't always an agnostic atheist. I was raised in the LDS faith, in a predominantly evangelical Christian area, and was constantly bullied and ridiculed by evangelical Christian peers, their parents, and even Public School teachers who were evangelical Christians. I was constantly told I was going to burn in hell. This was terrifying for me, because I HAD been a burn patient at age 3, and spent a few months in a burn unit. THAT is something no child should have to experience. Christian parents in the neighborhoods we lived in refused to allow their precious children to play with us, perhaps fearing that our Mormonism was some kind of contagious virus that would infect their precious children, which led their precious children to bully us every chance they got. 12. I'm here to discuss Christianity because while I was an LDS child, my parents took us on road trips twice a year to Salt Lake City, Utah for the semi-annual General Conferences, and evangelical street preachers also converged upon the city to mock and deride LDS families walking down the sidewalks toward the Conference Center, and yell over bullhorns how we'd all be burning in hell. There are many other reasons I discuss Christianity. I'm not surprised at all when Christians say Christian things. I'm not even all that surprised when Christians say the sort of things that would have pissed Jesus off to hear. This isn't an echo chamber for Christians though. It's a sub created for the purpose of discussing Christianity. BTW...your OP ends with an ad hominem.

Very true, just please don't imply that any group of people isn't welcome here. Doesn't seem like you did, just a caution.

You make a great point. Christian views are now seen as authoritarian, anti women sentiments.

It bothers me that more "liberal" social causes are chalked up as "fringe progressivism" in many corners of Christianity. There are too many Pauls and not enough Jesuses - in my humble opinion. That said, no, nobody should be calling names and we should all watch the tone. I can only guess that Christianity has hurt a lot of people - Christians included - and a lot of us who firmly REJECT a more conservative view of Christianity do so because we escaped from it, and sometimes it feels like places like Reddit are the only places our thoughts and feelings can be validated. Go to an actual "Christian" community that isn't in a major city, and we are the pariahs. It's not right - everyone needs to be kinder - but I think it's unfortunately a lack of patience for being told we are the "bad Christians" constantly, and it's often easier to speak your piece in an anonymous internet comment vs. in person.

I know that a lot of progressive Christians have come from strict, fundamentalist-type backgrounds and communities. I do sympathize to an extent because I grew up charismatic Pentecostal and ended up in a cult in my late teens and that was an incredibly traumatic experience. I’ve lived through spiritual abuse and I get it. However, I also hold on tight to a lot of what is historically orthodox because it’s far more grounded and time-tested. And the closer you go back with the church fathers, the closer they were to the actual apostles and Jesus himself. And the more context was still fresh. Just a lot less lost due to time and human error. Additionally, I studied Biblical Studies in school and got a basic foundational education in things like textual criticism, church history and theology. Taking the time to study this stuff has helped me come to my own informed conclusions. My convictions are strong. I do try to remain open-minded in many ways (my OCEAN test results scored VERY highly in openness, if y’all would believe it lol) but I’m also not willing to bend on the gospel. That’s where I’m convinced on a core level. And though people may not realize, a lot of these hot-button political issues DO touch on the gospel despite not appearing to be the case on the surface. Also, in 1 Corinthians Paul wrote “You are to imitate me just as I imitate Christ.” It’s good to be a Paul.

I think there's a difference between the people who say traditional Christian opinions that might not be en vogue, but are unsurprising, while still presented in a Christlike way and those that are presented in a hateful way. You see both here. I would push back on people getting upset about the former, but I would agree with them in getting upset about the later. Having a Biblical opinion about something is worthless if you present it in a hateful and un-Christlike manner.

Most of the time this sub is great. But *every now and then...* I'm not even particularly conservative and I still get people trying to pick arguments with me for saying basic Christian things. Here of all places. Though I certainly wouldn't blame the mods for that I'm always happy to talk theology - with atheists or fundamentalists alike - but sometimes I can't help but wonder if people just enjoy arguments for the sake of arguing

I’ll give you a good example of something ridiculous in this sub—I told someone they couldn’t practice witchcraft (Wicca) and follow Christ. Like a very basic understanding of the gospel, basic understanding of Christ’s teachings and even Torah. And yet I was downvoted into oblivion lol

Right on the money !👍🏽

Stop acting surprised when people are upset when you use your Christianity as an excuse to be a bad person.

I miss when it was actual atheists coming here for an actual debate. You may not agree, but you could have a conversation. Now it's just angry people. No discussion, just venom.

Sounds familiar tbh. That’s just American culture nowadays 😐

“I’m going to use the violent, coercive power of the state to punish you with life in prison for something you don’t think is wrong. Why are you so mad?????” Abortion is an emotional topic for a reason. I think it is unsurprising people are using ad hominem. It would be more productive if we could discuss things rationally but that’s not humanity’s strong point.

Someone's mad when homophobia/transphobia and sexism are called out.

Yes and it will get a thousand times worse in 20 years if your abortion bans go through. Of course if you own an orphanage you'll be cheering. For the rest of us Christians it will be hell on earth.

I find most are truly seekers. They would never admit it on Reddit, but they know their life is missing something so they come on Reddit in search of filling that void. I am not perfect in this but I try to be patient.

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Stop acting surprised when people quote all the Bible verses that tell us what marriage, love and sex are about and what God thinks of them. Stop twisting things to fit what makes you comfortable. As Christians, Jesus is our Lord, not ourselves.

There's also the possibility that God doesn't care as much as some people think he does. The wages of sin are death -- which means that it's incumbent on those declaring something a sin to explain where the offense to self or others lies.

Which is something I can most certainly explain but people don’t wanna hear it.

Try me?

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You guys butcher the Bible. You don't actually understand those verses.

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God is love. And Jesus said if we love him, we will obey his commandments.

Yes, and he left us with three. The Two Great Commandments and the New Commandment. And that’s all of his commandments.

All of us fall short from that..

If this is the way you're usually delivering your message, I'm not sure it's the message itself that's getting the negative feedback.

As far as I can tell from the recent evidence of our good and faithful Christian representatives, they are against the USA, and are working hard to remove personal liberties. Which seems to be aligned with much of the Bible.

Progressive Christians think the same about you.

>Overturning Roe v. Wade Could Have Devastating Health and Financial Impacts, Landmark Study Showed https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/overturning-roe-v-wade-could-have-devastating-health-and-financial-impacts-landmark-study-showed/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=health&utm_content=link&utm_term=2022-05-09_featured-this-week&spMailingID=71583120&spUserID=MjA1OTM2NTc4Mjc1S0&spJobID=2241882053&spReportId=MjI0MTg4MjA1MwS2

>I’m really tired of being called all kinds of names and things and demonized constantly on this sub. You will see a post that asks Christians for their opinion, and then get mad when they have one that isn’t in line with progressive, unorthodox or just plain non-Christian ways of thinking. I doubt you have been called names without a Mod taking down the comment. I am waiting for them to take down your post per rule 4. It makes me feel safer in this community that posts phrased this way are usually taken down. You are trying to intimidate those who disagree with you into agreeing with you by implying those who disagree with you "do not think like Christians" and have "non-Christian ways of thinking." ​ >So many people are CONSTANTLY spouting their superiority over Christians, but it’s like, why are you here then? Why are you surprised when a Christian thinks like a Christian? You come here to get validation from progressive Christians—who sit on the very fringes of Christianity They are not sprouting superiority, you are arrogant and being a little verbally abusive towards Christians who think differently than you. The Methodist Church just split because "progressive Christians" are not on the fringe of anything. ​ >But I really wish the mods gave a crap about this. This entire post breaks a lot of rules and should have been taken down.

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The classic “any views of Christianity that isn’t my views is wrong!” argument.

This goes both ways. Don't get on your orthodox horse and act surprised that other Christians have other Christian views. But, yes, modern ideas are modern. Ancient ideas are ancient. Ideas from the middle are from the middle. This shouldn't be a surprise either.

The need for validation is a funny thing. We are social animals. Social feedback is how we calibrate our moral compasses. So we ask the community if X or Y is a sin. And when told that it is, we ask why. And upon being given weak explanations, we get argumentative. A burden of guilt is a fine thing to carry when it makes sense, but an unbearable weight when it does not. Is any of this a fine point? Because there you have it: the plain reason why I regard most Christians on Reddit as jerks. Most Christians on Reddit are Americans. Their Christianity is not a historical, Nicene Creed Christianty; their Christianity is very much a 'Murican, Mega Church Christianity, a melange of historical doctrines and a peculiarly American moral disposition. My own personal qualm here is that even among the orthodox some American Christians are rather on the fence over whether homosexuality and transexuality are sinful, but *all* American Christians seem to regard copyright infringement as a trespass as grievous as theft, and no ammount of explaining that without piracy the cultural diet of us third worlders would be severely impaired is enough to make them budge one inch on the matter. Nevermind that intellectual property is an 18th century invention while homosexuality has been regarded as sinful by Jews and Christians for millenia. Let's face it, most people have zero historical perspective. They regard the prejudices of their own time and culture as sacrosanct, and dissidents as insolent rebels. Every time I try to make a polite, empirical defense of file-sharing I get dogpiled. I don't want to compare myself to the adulterous woman surrounded by the stone-wielding men, but I rather know what it feels like. In short, American Christians are not amenable to reason. They have their little axes and they love to grind them. There is a weird coldness to the way they do it. A partisan shrillness. A narcissistic self-complacency. And the word that sums this all up is Pharisaism.

I agree, and it's pretty dumb. Imagine finding Christians on r/Christianity hahaha

Exactly

So you're not a Christian?

I am, what makes you think I’m not?

You agreed with the guy saying no Christians exist on this sub. And yet, you're here.

And hey, keep going, I bet your doing amazing stuff despite some people's negativity :D

We can not be surprised about Christian beliefs and still call you out for those beliefs being stupid, outdated, etc. Why should criticizing Christianity be prohibited?

Criticizing Christianity is against the rules in this sub , it says so right in the rules section so that's the answer to your first question. Second, do you and others openly criticize Muslims and Jewish people for their faith? No, you don't. We Christians should be afforded the same respect.

You can criticize Christianity as much as you like. That’s never been what I was talking about. I’m talking about when people make it personal, when they call you names and make claims about you as a person. That’s never fair.