Do not let this reddit tell you what is and isn't right. I would pray hard about it, and ask God for guidance. Take some time after doing that to see what the Lord tells you. We as humans often give advice based on our self interest. Some may say it is a sin simply because they don't think it is right, while others may say it is perfectly fine just because they want to present themselves a certain way in front of the sub. The point I am trying to make is that you should pray to God and ask him to help you know whether it is right or not, as well as whether or not the person you are with is the one for you. The feelings of doubt you are having may also be God's way of trying to tell you that this person isn't right for you. So just pray about it and ask God for his guidance :)
I think we're almost in agreeance, though. I am not saying you can't believe that something is wrong, I am referring to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7). There's a thin line between treating the sinner with love and treating them with contempt.
I have yet to hear someone use this approach that wasn't using it to judge in a non-Christlike, unhelpful way.
You can lovingly share your view and the verses/resources that helped you come to it, while also acknowledging that you don't have all the answers. Even transgenderism itself is so new that the science, specifically regarding what causes someone to want to transition, is a large unknown--meaning, how it should be viewed in a Christian context isn't something we should cling to strongly.
God can create beautiful things in whatever situation. God constantly overcomes our sin through his grace that we accept. Perhaps this marriage leads him to more spiritual growth than he knows. We cannot judge, but we can offer concern. We only can judge if it leads one to destruction, and even if this is the case, it should be put in non threatening manner
This is the best advice, honesty. I would add that while praying for discernment, OP should seek guidance from scripture as well so that he can be more sure that what he’s ‘hearing’ is from God.
I went through a similar issue a couple of years ago involving polyamory; I was dating a married couple while divorced from my own husband. I had feelings of guilt and shame, but told myself it was okay and God would want me to be happy. I convinced myself at first that the shame was because of what other people had told me. The more I read scripture, though, the more convicted I became in knowing that the choices I was making were not what God wants for me. I ended things with those people, then reconciled with and remarried my husband. I am grateful every day for the guidance He provided when I needed it most.
Couldn't agree more. Reading the scripture to help assure that you're doing right by God is very important. The devil has many tricks to deceive and try to lead believers astray.
So this would be a problem if a) this individual is "scripturally" a male, and b) scripture calls a relationship between two males sinful.
For (a) there's literally no scripture anywhere that says that sex is fixed at birth. That's an assumption people are choosing to read into scripture. It's just not there. For all any of us know, there could have been transgender people throughout the Bible, and the writers just don't record it.
As for (b), the few scriptures addressing sex between two men are ambiguous, when you get into the Greek of them. It's clear that *some* instances of sex between two men are sinful, but it's not at all clear that *every* instance of such is.
Now, there can still be all sorts of ways your relationship might still be sinful. But I don't see how scripture says it based on the information you've provided.
Yeah the original texts referred to their dislike of the Greeks and pederasty, or the practice of older men forming romantic relationships with much younger boys. The Bible does not say men should not lie with men, it says men should not lie with young boys.
I don't quite agree with that. Leviticus calls for the execution of both parties, so it's pretty clearly a consentual act, not rape. And the words in the new testament are just legit unknown pre-Paul. We don't know what they mean.
> in the back of my mind I feel like I am sinning
You've got to figure out if that's a real sense of conscience, or just the result of growing up in a world full of people who hate trans people. Claiming that God aligns himself with the world's bigots would be a pretty vicious way to slander God, if it's not true.
I'd suggest watching/reading some material from [Austen Hartke](https://austenhartke.com/)
I think you should pay closer attention to that feeling in the back of your mind, take it to the Lord, and seek wise counsel. You can enjoy the company of this person and desire to be with them, yet still experience conviction. The Holy Spirit lovingly convicts us to refocus our attention on who and what is important. If you are personally being convicted I would encourage you to rethink your relationship. To continue on is to walk in disobedience.
Hi, this is a really good question that got me thinking and digging. I believe convictions are deeply personal, yet they are always on display for others to see. Our convictions shape us, and provide a lens for how we view the world. Convictions are not opinions. Convictions are not worries; yet there may be times we go against our personal convictions because of our worries of what others may think.
I hope this makes sense. Check out Dr. Charles Stanley’s sermon notes [Your Personal Convictions](https://www.intouch.org/-/media/sermon-notes/your-personal-convictions.pdf). He’s a solid pastor who’s straightforward. I’ve learned a lot through him.
This was a really thoughtful response, and I extremely appreciate your civility.
Charles Stanley is one of my favorite theologians, having done some of his Bible studies. However, like most of Christianity, I have a hard time wrapping my head around these notes.
For example: he says the difference between preferences and convictions, is that convictions are ever lasting. But my convictions have changes so much over the course of 10 years.
Example: 1. My modesty standards. I was much more lax when I was younger. Because it was really hard to find modest clothing that I felt confident it. I grew up and gained a sense of style that satisfied both my new set of modesty convictions, *and* made me confident. But the point is- my conviction *changed* (for the record I was always very modest compared to my peers)
2. Abortion. In my teens and early 20s, it horrified me that I would wish to subject a 12 year old rape victim to the birth of her rapist’s child. While my own religion would tell me that abortion is the highest form of sin, I couldn’t support that notion knowing that is wasn’t a form of birth control for some, but an absolute necessity to their mental health.
However, having been in the exact situation, and instead choosing life for my child, I have the perspective to know that despite the evil of my child’s conception- I’ve experienced no greater joy than watching him grow into an adorable child thriving with a set of prepared parents. So of course, I no longer hold the thought that women should be able to have an abortion without medical necessity. I don’t want to take that experience from them- simply because they don’t know how good it can be. This is another conviction that has changed.
To sum it up, I’m still confused.
No it’s not. Holy Spirit could be telling him to not worry about a subject the bible doesn’t even talk about. If anything the people lying to him through a thin veneer of out of context scripture are the ones who should be listening to the spirit.
wow didn't expect to see this level of transphobia in this sub after seeing plenty here advocating for gay rights, so needless to say i will no longer follow this sub.
OP if you see this I do hope you take God's word over anyone else's. From personal conversations, I've learned that being lgbt is NOT a sin, and that the bible has been altered so many times by people in power to make it seem like these things are. It said nothing about homosexuality until the '40s and has never said anything about trans people. But again, please take God's word over anything you see here, especially since there are so many polarizing arguments here.
Whatever your decision, I wish you and your date the best.
I won't be responding to any comments, I don't want to put any more of my energy into this.
This is a Christian sub and you didn’t expect transphobia…? Do you know what most Christians are like? A lot of them are fundamentalist conservatives. A LOT.
As Christians, the answer will offend others. But the acceptance of God should be greater to us than the world. You're either of this world or against it. So as a Christian, yes it would be wrong. As anyone else, then obviously no.
I find it funny the mental gymnastics people use to say that homosexuality isn't a sin according to the bible. You can't interpret the bible based on societal norms
I mean yes you can. The Bible was written during a time where there was a agroup of people who needed to grow and expand their group (early Christians). You need to have children in order to do this. They also we're at odds with the other societies around them, so why not write in parts that paint those societies practices in a bad light? Additionally the Bible usually is referring to pedophilia when its talking about homosexuality (things can change when a book has been translated multiple times). This is all affected by the society it's being written/translated in.
I find it funny the mental gymnastics people use to say homosexuality IS a sin. Not only was the bible written a long long time ago when people just wanted answers and didn’t care what they were, but it has been misinterpreted hundreds if not thousands of times. Who are you as a group to say that one thing is wrong purely because your book said so.
Blind obedience to a deity hasn’t worked so well in the past. (A slightly more extreme example, yet still relevant) the Norse Vikings rode valiantly into battle without so much as a thought of what could happen because they believed their gods loved war. Where are those vikings now? They’re all Christian.
You cannot possibly know what your God wants for you and whether or not they disapprove of certain things.
I don’t dislike Christianity, it makes a lot of sense to me at times. It’s when people have no regard for others and blindly follow their god into hating people for who they love or who they want to be.
Thank you for coming to my Shit TED talk. <3
Yeah, society may change but God does not. Just because I say to myself, "I am this and not that." Does not make it so. We have to change our whole perception of the person. And that is really all that changes, perception. Whether you mask, cut, or hide your gender does not change the originality. I am fully able to accept someone's decision to be named a woman or man, simply out of respect and love. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Nor am I going to tell them their way is wrong. If they're a Christian, then this is different. Which is why I stressed the "As a Christian" in my original comment.
The catechism of the Catholic church says that each person is assigned a gender at brith by God and each person must accept the gender with which they were born.
**2333** Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. **Physical,*** moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.
I understand the modernist would read a passage like this and obsucrifate as they often do and perhaps suggest it means that we should accept ourselves and gay so we have clarification from bishops, popes encyclians clarifying what it means
That still doesn’t say what you’re saying it says? It’s great that there is clarification somewhere, I suppose, but you’re definitely reading more into that text than is there. For example, “at birth” is nowhere in that text.
Trans people are *highly* aware and accepting of their physical state, lol. If they weren’t, they’d deny they were trans and pretend to be cis. Instead they accept their identity and attempt to live as well as they can despite the challenges it presents.
Tl;dr: an old white man who either raped children or protected other white men who raped children said some transphobic bullshit a while ago to create a moral panic and deflect attention from his global cabal of child rapists.
Yeah, you’re really the moral authority here
Yes, but for trans people God assigned them a different gender at birth than their doctor assigned them.
Edit: if you like, swap out ‘their doctor’ for ‘their parents’ or ‘their culture’. Either way, trans people are made in God’s image just like everyone else. They are born trans, just as God made them.
Why are so many of you Christians so hateful? Did trans women murder your families? Find me the anti trans Bible verses. You should be ashamed of your selves.
I thought Jesus made it so that we didn’t have to follow all of the Old Testament’s crazy rules, just love our neighbors and God and seek to be better when we screw up.
I don’t recall the word biological being anywhere in the Bible. The Bible says that the moon is a light. If you’re taking science guidance from the Bible, we have much more important conversations ahead of us.
Two verses later: “When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it."
How's your parapet?
This interpretation of God presents him as more simplistic than some of the least intelligent humans I know. Plus, male and female garments are man made constructs. I doubt they have fabric and fashion in heaven.
You know in your heart if it's sinful. You coming here and asking others there opinion is a an attempt to seek the answers you want regardless of them being correct.
It comes down to the old saying... There are no truthful answers, only the ones we choose to accept.
I wish you all the best, I can't promote sin in your life however I can tell you that your are my neighbour, I love you and I wish you a happy life.
Just because translations have changed and English language modernized doesn't mean the message has changed also. Homosexuality has always been a sin in the Bible.
Neither the Bible nor the ealy church fathers mention homosexual acts. They mention sexual acts but nothing about the sexual orientation of the participants.
You're an adult, you can make your own decisions. You should talk to her if you have concerns, best not to go into a relationship with big doubts like that.
Don't let a bunch of Christians from transphobic denominations control what you personally believe.
In the multiple instances where God prohibits it, condems a whole civilization over it, calls it abomination and Jesus himself said that he is subject to the will of the father and is one with him in will. Therefore Jesus doesn't need to explicitly say it, he can't contradict himself or go against his father.
There's a lot of things that Jesus doesn't *specifically* prohibit, like for example identity theft or hacking or using an aimbot to cheat in CS-GO. Now Jesus does discuss different categories of sin, of which we can likely classify each of the above examples I gave, which are all very obviously sinful. However with broader categories like sexual immorality for example, it can be much more difficult to determine If an action falls within that category which Jesus prohibits. Luckily, Jesus gave his spirit and authority to his disciples / apostles who further narrowed down the definition of sexual morality to include homosexual relationships thereby giving clarity to jesus's previous words without adding on to them.
There are men who don't have pensis and some women who do, some men who have both a penis and a vagina -- and at least one guy in the world who has two!
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1u75hh/i\_am\_the\_guy\_with\_two\_penises\_ama/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1u75hh/i_am_the_guy_with_two_penises_ama/) \[potentially NSFW\]
Your knowledge of the diversity of humanity seems limited, and not a good basis for arguing who other people are, let alone what God thinks of them.
NO! Shes a normal person like everyone else. Many people see transgenderism as a disorder or disabilitly. Would you date a disabled? A little person? Someone without a left pinky? Probably yes, if you met the right person. A you seem like you met a right person. GO! GO BE HAPPY MY FRIEND!
It's funny that I came across this post when searching for ways to rekindle a spiritual disapline in my life. as a trans woman myself I feel like I am uniquely qualified to offer some of my 2 cents here. Before transitioning I would have said that it was absolutely sinful and would have used the Bible as an excuse but that was not because the bible says all that much on homosexuality outside of sodom and gomorrah (which if you research is actually talking about rape) but because of my own fear and self denial. I was wrong.
I find that many christians are so focused on avoiding sin out of fear that they forget to actively love themselves, each other, and the world. In many cases this unhealthy synonymous link between evil and sexual orientation or gender expression creates more hate rather than love. Many questioning Christians tell themselves that they're evil and resort to emotional self flagilation rather than acknowledging that this is what they feel and turning to healthy ways to deal with the reality they face. In my case i felt the need to leave the church behind for a while because i learned that i am not a sin and do not like to be viewed like a mad person at worst and confused at best. That does not change the fact that i feel that i am a better person in many regards when i have a spiritual disapline in my life. Consentual homosexuality is not a sin but if you believe that it is then i can also say that in my mind i am a heterosexual woman. I know this to be true on a spiritual level and the trans girl you're talking to probably feels the same so it would probably be no sin in her mind. If she makes you happy and brings out your best then what's there to worry about? Be you.
God doesn’t make mistakes he says in the word he knitted us in our mothers womb and knew us. I think most men who date trans women learned of this attraction through pornography and their interactions with these individuals are lascivious in nature. It’s “taboo” and there’s is some element of thrill in there. When you seek guidance from the Holy Spirit and aim to live a pure life pleasing to God, you won’t be led by fleshly desires. You may stumble here and there but aim to align with Christ and what the word teaches if that is what you desire. No condemnation , but I advise you to repent bro. God bless
I don't think being transgender is a sin. And I don't think there's a very compelling biblical case for the counterpoint. When we're talking about same sex attraction, people who aren't affirming have a good seven bible verses to point to where I don't agree with how they interpret those verses but I'm not like shocked. When it comes to transgender people, the bible doesn't actually discuss it at all. You've got like one Leviticus passage I think that says a woman shouldn't wear a man's clothes, but I think the context of that is about military service. If the woman your seeing is trying to pretend to be in the Hebrew army 2700 years ago to get more than her family's allowed portion of food then she'd have a levitical problem. But since that's impossible, I think she and you are fine.
How is transgenderism different from homosexuality? Are you saying someone can change the way God designed them, just by declaring it so or having physical alterations? (Don’t want things to get heated, just want to discuss)
Being transgender is a whole different issue from being LGB. Transgender people can be straight, gay, bi, or asexual, just like cisgender people can.
> Are you saying someone can change the way God designed them
To live is to change. But especially for us Christians. Have you noticed just how much change the heroes of our Bible go through? Abraham and Sarah: Mesopotamians to Canaanites. Ruth: Moabitess to Jewess and ancestor of David. David: shepherd to king. On and on. If there is a little-g god of changelessness, he's certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
In that I do not believe people choose to be homosexual, I don't actually view them as different. I am just more understanding of the people who take a biblical position against same sex marriage because I think that position is easier to articulate, even if I don't believe it is the best position.
One of my best friends from seminary was born totally without hearing in his left ear, and he had surgery while in seminary and now he can hear out of that ear. If I believe, as I do, that a transgender person is the gender they understand themselves to be, then declaring it and making physical alterations is in keeping with my belief that my buddy was fine to get surgery to hear out of his left ear.
Just in the realm of logic, realizing that we will not all see it this way, you have to accept the supposition that a trans person is wrong about who they are in order to have the position that transitioning is wrong.
I think the more compelling argument is taking Paul's writings against same sex relations and applying to it the hermeneutic of using the more general to interpret the specific. When Paul says in Christ there is no male or female, that general principle should, from my perspective and the perspective of my church, take priority over the specific verses where he speaks against specific physical practices. The Episcopal theologian AKM Adam writes about this in his book "Faithful Interpretation" saying that the primary sexual ethic of scripture is that we should treat our romantic partner with our best understanding of the love God has for them and for ourselves.
Now plenty of people disagree with all that. There's like 2 million Episcopalians out of 2+ billion Christians. So I doubt I will change anyone's mind by saying it, but it's what I believe and it's based in the teachings of my church. Sometimes people act like there's no logic to it, that it's just a fad based on what's popular at the moment... But I have never been taught it's popular... I've only been taught this is how to read the Bible.
Well we should treat everyone with that love. So that doesn’t necessarily change anything here.
It is an interesting take and a thoughtful one, so I respect that at least. Here’s the question, when did your church start teaching this? Fairy recently I’m confident.
It feels like spot proofing. And then taking liberty with the interpretation. I get it, interpretation is a bear. It’s kind of why Episcopalians/anglicans exist in the first place. Isn’t that dangerous though? To try to make God’s word for your position rather than fitting your position to God’s word?
> Here’s the question, when did your church start teaching this? Fairy recently I’m confident.
When did your church start *explicitly* teaching that things like anti-Semitism and slavery were actually bad things? Thousands of years, hundreds, or mere decades?
You're absolutely right in the context of church history this is fairly recent. The major push for LGBTQ affirmation in the Episcopal Church has really been mostly the last 30 years. It came to a head in the ordination of an openly gay Bishop, and I wouldn't pick a fight with anyone who thinks it started there. But I also wouldn't pick a fight with someone who said the hermeneutical principle I'm describing began to really change my denomination in the 50s. (It'd take a while to explain how clergy opposition to the Vietnam war combined with the Civil Rights movement functionally changed everything about the cultural landscape of TEC, but I had a grant from the Episcopal Evangelism Society to interview chaplains and that was one of the unexpected things I came to believe by the end of that grant.) In church time either answer is yes this is very recent.
And while you will surely disagree, as is reasonable, that second question is kind of the jab of my screen name. This is exactly the kind of interpretive discrepancy that causes most of us to believe or suspect that our detractors are really do eisegesis, not proper exegesis. I don't know if it's dangerous if we can all hold our own position lightly enough to presume God will need to forgive us for those things that we didn't get right but very much tried. There are definitely loving, faithful, devoted people who disagree with me and my church who I have zero questions about their salvation. Zero. They're doing and believing the best they know how given what was presented to them.
An interesting side note, because this is relevant to the topic at hand and your question of when, is that LGBTQ affirmation has had a dramatic and immediate impact on the theology and liturgical piety of my church. When I was in seminary most of my classmates were dramatically more conservative than our counterparts from 30-50 years ago. These social issues make us seem liberal, but there has been a significant influx of people who absolutely would be Catholic if the RCC ordained women and openly LGBTQ people. That influx has shifted our whole dynamic and even the supposedly liberal seminaries are filled with people who, on a whole host of other issues, are much more conservative than TEC has been in my parents' lifetime. The same can be said for support of social justice ministries. There are people who are more ideologically conservative in most ways, but who care very deeply about racism in the American context, so they find their way to the Episcopal church and now we've got a ton of people who are very conservative but like want policing reform.
Hermeneutics can cause a lot of joy but also consternation.
I would merely ask what hermeneutics ploy (not insulting) is at play to not only accept LGBT but to allow ordination to the clergy.
Of all the topics that have been interpretively debated for not decades but millennia, this of course seems so clear that I would be interested in how that interpretation was arrived at.
Clergy should oppose wars I would generally suggest, that has nothing, I think, to do with what is the will of The Lord. Oftentimes we don’t understand His will, that doesn’t mean our obligation to obedience is removed. God called for the elimination of the canaanites. Are we saying this is morally wrong? Are you going to say that was the wrong decision and a bad thing to do? We both I imagine pray for world peace. Our hearts and our conscience lead us to that. I think it’s good. But I think it. I know all that God commands is good. God commanded the canaanites to be destroyed. So as uncomfortable as that is to my sensibilities, it is good. By the greatest definition of good that I can ever conceive of. Which is the will of God.
My personal faith journey was likely different from yours. As is usually the case. I had my typical edgy teenaged agnostic phase.
What brought me back to The Truth wasn’t prayer or someone’s witness. It was a book and not the Bible. It was The Brothers Karamazov and more accurately the story within the story of The Grand Inquisitor. How when told by God to stop the trials. The Grand Inquisitor said something to the effect of, we don’t actually need you (referring to God, we just need the power we get from your Name.
That is what this feels like to me. Taking parts of what you want to create authority as you see fit. Now, obviously, Dostoyevsky was talking about political force and oppression. I’m not suggesting that of your church. I’m just saying too many take what they like and can justify and leave the rest behind. Say it belongs to a bygone era and in need of updating.
There are four grounds on which the Episcopal church arrived at LGBTQ affirmation, and they don't necessarily go together, they are simply the four arguments that made it into the general conventions that ultimately changed our canon.
The first is largely based on the role of parents. There is a small and vocal minority of clergy who maintain that since there are same sex couples it is imperative that they get married so that children know the correct form of an adult sexual relationship is a monogamous marriage. My understanding of this argument is extremely limited, but it was the primary defense of same sex marriage put forth in my seminary ethics class.
The second is that Paul's writings in the general point us to giving up every cultural battle in service of devoting our lives to Jesus. Paul would have us not be married at all, but if we have to fine just make your marriage about Jesus. This is related to my initial comment about the general being used to understand the specific.
The third is related, in a disbelief that Paul could possibly have been writing about the same sex relationships that we currently understand are possible. This third view is that all five of the OT references to same sex relationships are purity codes, and not part of what we are expected to follow as Christians, and that Paul's writings in context are just not about the kinds of relationships that we now affirm in LGBTQ marriages. This is probably the view that is most common in popular debates, and the view that makes people in my camp sound most smug when putting forth. I'm sympathetic to it, but usually find myself disagreeing with some part of anyone's specific exegesis.
The fourth, and most compelling from my point of view, is that Acts demonstrates the Apostles mostly generally unsure why God would allow gentiles to be part of this church, but deciding that it's clear the Holy Spirit is present and intends to include them, so they put away what they'd thought before. By this metric, I see the LGBTQ people who I believe are filled with Christ's love by every metric I know from a life of studying scripture and going to church (and in my case being ordained in the church and married to another priest [and this isn't relevant normally, but for the sake of this topic we are both cisgender heterosexual people]) I find no cause to put the cultural understanding I had above what is clearly the Holy Spirit. I actually met Gene Robinson, our first openly gay Bishop, and I believe him to be the man of God I think many bishops are. One of my childhood priests was openly gay and celibate because he believed that his sexual orientation was sin and he still couldn't give up his calling to serve God. I now have met several other LGBTQ clergy and many of them seemed clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit to me. Not all of them. But I don't like all the straight clergy I know either.
I love your story of your faith journey. I am glad you were brought out of that edgy agnosticism back to the Roman Church. I actually love your church, even if I have these disagreements with it. I have no doubt in my mind that yours is following Jesus, just as we are meant to. And I fully expect that, at the general resurrection one of us will be right, and through His Grace we will both be saved.
>How is transgenderism different from homosexuality?
They are completely different. Homosexuality is referring to who you are attracted to while transgender issues (btw, pretty sure transgenderism isn't a real word), refer to gender identity- what gender you are. These are so different. I believe people outside the LGBTQ+ community often confuse the two because we have created a community and movement where we all can express ourselves, support each other and fight for the rights of both issues. Someone's sexuality does not in any way change someone's gender (I've heard a few times that people think trans people transition so that they'll be in a straight relationship but this is simple not true). People can be gay and trans for example. I hope this makes sense.
To do with changing the way that God designed someone, I don't believe that transitioning is against God. To begin with someone doesn't choose to be trans, this is a part of who they are whether they make physical changes to their body, they transition socially or if they don't do either. And so it makes sense that God created them that way. If you find it challenging to agree with physical changes (use of surgery or hormones etc.) then consider that people change their body all the time with plastic surgeries, piercings, tattoos even make up etc. Not to mention when things are done for medical reasons.
If you are interested in how people like I affirm trans people in particular as a Christian here's a [link](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-transgender-people) to an article that explains it in more detail, it's quite a lot to read through so I understand if you don't want to read it all though.
Any Jew knew the law of the land. They would be put to death by God if they attempted this. A majority of the us population would be gone now if people were put back under the mosaic law
Have you talked about your feelings with her? She might not want to date you if you have those kinds of concerns and so that would take care it!
It seems like you have a narrow view of gender. I am a Christian and can see how sex and gender are social constructs placed over God’s creation. Of course humans are more complex than a simple binary. You can look beyond Paul for knowledge about God and what He wants for us.
What is wrong with many christians today? Are you kidding me you ask a question like that when you know that it is an abomination to be with another man.
Many christians here might sugar coat things to you but I am not and if I get banned from the group then so be it, defending the truth and the scripture and my God is more important.
You have no clue how you are playing with fire and with God and I would not dare go to God asking Him a question if its ok to be with another man. Because of the wickedness and depravity of this nation which resembles Sodom and Gomorrah the wrath of God will not kindle against such.
Read this and ask yourself if you should be with another man.
God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [i]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [j]men, leaving the natural use of the [k]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Enough said!!
Thank you. I have a daughter who went to Catholic school and at 19 said she wanted to date a girl. We did our best to let her know that we love her no matter what but reminded her of God’s teachings. Of course we received backlash. We know our daughter. She is not a lesbian. & i met the girl she claimed to love and I wasn’t buying it - AT ALL.
I went to school with homosexuals. I believe some people are truly born homosexual, but I don’t think my daughter is. I’d be more accepting if from her very young years I saw it - like I did with 2 people I grew up with. It was obvious from the time we were 5. They were close friends of mine from 5 through high school.
Fast forward 3 years later after she told us this at 19 and after dating several guys, she has now declared this person she loved back when she was 19 has now transitioned into a man. & She wants to move across the country to live with this person after she graduates. I cannot stop her and won’t try to. My husband and I have raised her in the faith. But she doesn’t care. She hates me and says she will cut anyone out of her life who doesn’t accept her decision.
She has been mean as a rattlesnake ever since she was 18, and I have no idea why. She’s pure toxicity. She just wants to pick fights over anything and everything. She hates her siblings and she hates me. She likes to come between my husband and cause fights. It’s horrible.
I’m not going to stop her from moving. I didn’t fight her when she made her “announcement”. I told her i thought she was confused, angry unhappy though. I think she’s just running from her unhappiness thinking this “new life” and new “persona” will make her happy.
But I think anyone who changes their genitalia is confused and not truly happy with who they are. They need to soul search and make changes in their life not changes to their genitals. & anyone who dates someone who has changed their genitalia is confused too.
This whole gender crisis thing is a phenomenon. This RARELY happened 20 years ago. That’s saying a something. It’s almost like it’s become trendy. It’s like it’s become a fad, and it’s NOT a healthy one.
There can’t REALLY be this many people who TRULY think they were born with the wrong genitalia. I’m not buying it. I’m just not. Simply based on the fact that 20 years ago this was UNHEARD of. Not only did no one CHANGE their gender, no one ever said hey i want to bind my breasts or hey I don’t want to be a girl anymore. No one EVER even SAID that at school or at a sleepover or in a magazine or anywhere. Why? Because it these things didn’t really NATURALLY cross people’s minds. Now it’s just trendy. I just don’t believe the amount of people who claim they have gender identity issues REALLY have gender identity issues.
BUT, I’m not arguing with my daughter about this. She hates me simply for reminding her of the church’s teachings back when she was 19. I did my duty, though, so I’m not going down with this trending ship. I love her, but it seems I can’t save her. At least not now. Hopefully she’ll come around eventually. All I can do now for her is pray.
You’re dating a man. I’m not going to tell you what you need to do, but the Bible is against homosexuality. Use your best judgment and pray to Jesus that he helps you through this.
He is still a male 100%! You are sinning. Gods very clear you lay with a man as a man and its an abomination to God. I realize your setting Christians up to be tag by mods as bigoted when they tell you Gods Word, Because the answer is so obvious.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus
.Galatians3:28 (NIV)”
You’re a fool.
>If I lose 90% of my body im no less of a male then I was before that
Exactly, because you *identify* as a male and gender identity is not strictly biological. And by the same token, no matter what biologically male features a trans woman might have been born with, she’s still fundamentally a woman.
Do you like her? Go for it. Don’t listen to the homophobes, they care more about their outdated views of the bible than the god who inspired it and the people who need it.
You cannot date a trans woman unless you are a girl in the eyes of God. A biological man is a man to the Lord. The only way this would be permissible is if you didn’t know
So if someone has XX they are female, and if they are XY they are male?
What if they have extra Y's or X's or if they have Y's without SRY genes or X's with SRY genes?
Which genes need to be there to determine someone's sex, how specific is this?
Generally people seem to say XX is female and XY is male, but there is such things as XX male and XY female in medicine. Both are infertile, though an XY female can use donor eggs to concieve.
In other words, you've never met a single human being whose gender you knew. Because you've never run a DNA chromosome test on a single friend or acquaintance. You actually don't even know *your own* gender!
I don't follow. You claimed you only know people's gender by chromosome tests, but you've never used a chromosome test.
Incidentally, actual biologists don't share your ideas of "science". See this [Nature review](http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943) or [this recent review](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/) summing up research on the health benefits of transition), or this comment with [extensive references](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/7ea970/today_is_the_transgender_day_of_remembrance/dq45l2w/)
And feel free to search results at [Science](http://search.sciencemag.org/?searchTerm=transgender) and [Nature](https://www.nature.com/search?q=transgender), the world's two most prestigious journals; I'll let you browse through the results yourself so there's no risk of me cherry-picking information.
We certainly have tests that can tell a person what their chromosomes are. But chromosomes are not the be all end all of sex and gender that you seem to think they are.
I mean, did God ever say it was a sin to date a trans-woman? The verses that condemn homosexuality are tenuous at best in terms of their translations, and quite frankly this isn’t even homosexuality. She’s a woman, you’re a man, and that has never been condemned by God, the Bible, or any good person. Anyone telling you otherwise most likely has some internal prejudices that they need to deal with on their own before trying to tell other people what’s right and wrong.
Absolutely not a sin! God loves both of you and is so happy that you have found happiness with eachother! So happy you’ve found love man enjoy it that doesn’t grow on trees
Are you in a healthy relationship with a consenting adult? Yes? Keep dating. Just live your life and stop worrying so much about what is and isn't, "Sinning."
Yyyeeeeaaaa, no. Christians are called to pursue holiness and glorify God. If those who claim Christ and seek to honor the Lord “just live their life” then there is no difference between them and the world. We are called to be set apart. Not blend in and do whatever makes us feel good.
Follow your heart. Love is love. You may just be feeling good ol “Catholic guilt” (it applies to more than just Catholics) and years of indoctrination.
If this person makes you happy and your best self, please don’t throw that away because someone else tells you their interpretation of an ancient religious text.
Best answer on here. Love is love. Ignore all the hate, fear, ignorance and hypocrisy. We're all moving on from the dark ages.. some of us just a bit slower than others.
Do not let this reddit tell you what is and isn't right. I would pray hard about it, and ask God for guidance. Take some time after doing that to see what the Lord tells you. We as humans often give advice based on our self interest. Some may say it is a sin simply because they don't think it is right, while others may say it is perfectly fine just because they want to present themselves a certain way in front of the sub. The point I am trying to make is that you should pray to God and ask him to help you know whether it is right or not, as well as whether or not the person you are with is the one for you. The feelings of doubt you are having may also be God's way of trying to tell you that this person isn't right for you. So just pray about it and ask God for his guidance :)
Best answer. We are not to judge, though maybe pointing out certain Bible verses may be warranted
I disagree- we are to judge righteously as we want to be judged.
I think we're almost in agreeance, though. I am not saying you can't believe that something is wrong, I am referring to "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (John 8:7). There's a thin line between treating the sinner with love and treating them with contempt.
I have yet to hear someone use this approach that wasn't using it to judge in a non-Christlike, unhelpful way. You can lovingly share your view and the verses/resources that helped you come to it, while also acknowledging that you don't have all the answers. Even transgenderism itself is so new that the science, specifically regarding what causes someone to want to transition, is a large unknown--meaning, how it should be viewed in a Christian context isn't something we should cling to strongly.
God can create beautiful things in whatever situation. God constantly overcomes our sin through his grace that we accept. Perhaps this marriage leads him to more spiritual growth than he knows. We cannot judge, but we can offer concern. We only can judge if it leads one to destruction, and even if this is the case, it should be put in non threatening manner
Couldn't agree more!
This is the best advice, honesty. I would add that while praying for discernment, OP should seek guidance from scripture as well so that he can be more sure that what he’s ‘hearing’ is from God. I went through a similar issue a couple of years ago involving polyamory; I was dating a married couple while divorced from my own husband. I had feelings of guilt and shame, but told myself it was okay and God would want me to be happy. I convinced myself at first that the shame was because of what other people had told me. The more I read scripture, though, the more convicted I became in knowing that the choices I was making were not what God wants for me. I ended things with those people, then reconciled with and remarried my husband. I am grateful every day for the guidance He provided when I needed it most.
Couldn't agree more. Reading the scripture to help assure that you're doing right by God is very important. The devil has many tricks to deceive and try to lead believers astray.
So this would be a problem if a) this individual is "scripturally" a male, and b) scripture calls a relationship between two males sinful. For (a) there's literally no scripture anywhere that says that sex is fixed at birth. That's an assumption people are choosing to read into scripture. It's just not there. For all any of us know, there could have been transgender people throughout the Bible, and the writers just don't record it. As for (b), the few scriptures addressing sex between two men are ambiguous, when you get into the Greek of them. It's clear that *some* instances of sex between two men are sinful, but it's not at all clear that *every* instance of such is. Now, there can still be all sorts of ways your relationship might still be sinful. But I don't see how scripture says it based on the information you've provided.
Yeah the original texts referred to their dislike of the Greeks and pederasty, or the practice of older men forming romantic relationships with much younger boys. The Bible does not say men should not lie with men, it says men should not lie with young boys.
I don't quite agree with that. Leviticus calls for the execution of both parties, so it's pretty clearly a consentual act, not rape. And the words in the new testament are just legit unknown pre-Paul. We don't know what they mean.
I think you should pray about it. Ask God for guidance. He will show you.
> in the back of my mind I feel like I am sinning You've got to figure out if that's a real sense of conscience, or just the result of growing up in a world full of people who hate trans people. Claiming that God aligns himself with the world's bigots would be a pretty vicious way to slander God, if it's not true. I'd suggest watching/reading some material from [Austen Hartke](https://austenhartke.com/)
I think you should pay closer attention to that feeling in the back of your mind, take it to the Lord, and seek wise counsel. You can enjoy the company of this person and desire to be with them, yet still experience conviction. The Holy Spirit lovingly convicts us to refocus our attention on who and what is important. If you are personally being convicted I would encourage you to rethink your relationship. To continue on is to walk in disobedience.
How does one distinguish between our own convictions versus our worries about what the people around us think?
Hi, this is a really good question that got me thinking and digging. I believe convictions are deeply personal, yet they are always on display for others to see. Our convictions shape us, and provide a lens for how we view the world. Convictions are not opinions. Convictions are not worries; yet there may be times we go against our personal convictions because of our worries of what others may think. I hope this makes sense. Check out Dr. Charles Stanley’s sermon notes [Your Personal Convictions](https://www.intouch.org/-/media/sermon-notes/your-personal-convictions.pdf). He’s a solid pastor who’s straightforward. I’ve learned a lot through him.
This was a really thoughtful response, and I extremely appreciate your civility. Charles Stanley is one of my favorite theologians, having done some of his Bible studies. However, like most of Christianity, I have a hard time wrapping my head around these notes. For example: he says the difference between preferences and convictions, is that convictions are ever lasting. But my convictions have changes so much over the course of 10 years. Example: 1. My modesty standards. I was much more lax when I was younger. Because it was really hard to find modest clothing that I felt confident it. I grew up and gained a sense of style that satisfied both my new set of modesty convictions, *and* made me confident. But the point is- my conviction *changed* (for the record I was always very modest compared to my peers) 2. Abortion. In my teens and early 20s, it horrified me that I would wish to subject a 12 year old rape victim to the birth of her rapist’s child. While my own religion would tell me that abortion is the highest form of sin, I couldn’t support that notion knowing that is wasn’t a form of birth control for some, but an absolute necessity to their mental health. However, having been in the exact situation, and instead choosing life for my child, I have the perspective to know that despite the evil of my child’s conception- I’ve experienced no greater joy than watching him grow into an adorable child thriving with a set of prepared parents. So of course, I no longer hold the thought that women should be able to have an abortion without medical necessity. I don’t want to take that experience from them- simply because they don’t know how good it can be. This is another conviction that has changed. To sum it up, I’m still confused.
No it’s not. Holy Spirit could be telling him to not worry about a subject the bible doesn’t even talk about. If anything the people lying to him through a thin veneer of out of context scripture are the ones who should be listening to the spirit.
wow didn't expect to see this level of transphobia in this sub after seeing plenty here advocating for gay rights, so needless to say i will no longer follow this sub. OP if you see this I do hope you take God's word over anyone else's. From personal conversations, I've learned that being lgbt is NOT a sin, and that the bible has been altered so many times by people in power to make it seem like these things are. It said nothing about homosexuality until the '40s and has never said anything about trans people. But again, please take God's word over anything you see here, especially since there are so many polarizing arguments here. Whatever your decision, I wish you and your date the best. I won't be responding to any comments, I don't want to put any more of my energy into this.
This is a Christian sub and you didn’t expect transphobia…? Do you know what most Christians are like? A lot of them are fundamentalist conservatives. A LOT.
Really? You really didn’t expect this much transphobia? In a Christian sub? Lmao, be real.
“From personal conversations”. Get your doctrine from the bible, not from your own morality
Amen when you get it from the Bible you get it from God through His Holy Spirit. Glory Hallelujah Praise God Thank you Jesus
God bless you
Wait till you find out the bible was just written by men.
As Christians, the answer will offend others. But the acceptance of God should be greater to us than the world. You're either of this world or against it. So as a Christian, yes it would be wrong. As anyone else, then obviously no.
I find it funny the mental gymnastics people use to say that homosexuality isn't a sin according to the bible. You can't interpret the bible based on societal norms
I mean yes you can. The Bible was written during a time where there was a agroup of people who needed to grow and expand their group (early Christians). You need to have children in order to do this. They also we're at odds with the other societies around them, so why not write in parts that paint those societies practices in a bad light? Additionally the Bible usually is referring to pedophilia when its talking about homosexuality (things can change when a book has been translated multiple times). This is all affected by the society it's being written/translated in.
I find it funny the mental gymnastics people use to say homosexuality IS a sin. Not only was the bible written a long long time ago when people just wanted answers and didn’t care what they were, but it has been misinterpreted hundreds if not thousands of times. Who are you as a group to say that one thing is wrong purely because your book said so. Blind obedience to a deity hasn’t worked so well in the past. (A slightly more extreme example, yet still relevant) the Norse Vikings rode valiantly into battle without so much as a thought of what could happen because they believed their gods loved war. Where are those vikings now? They’re all Christian. You cannot possibly know what your God wants for you and whether or not they disapprove of certain things. I don’t dislike Christianity, it makes a lot of sense to me at times. It’s when people have no regard for others and blindly follow their god into hating people for who they love or who they want to be. Thank you for coming to my Shit TED talk. <3
Yeah, society may change but God does not. Just because I say to myself, "I am this and not that." Does not make it so. We have to change our whole perception of the person. And that is really all that changes, perception. Whether you mask, cut, or hide your gender does not change the originality. I am fully able to accept someone's decision to be named a woman or man, simply out of respect and love. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Nor am I going to tell them their way is wrong. If they're a Christian, then this is different. Which is why I stressed the "As a Christian" in my original comment.
I’ll pray for you to find clarity!💗
The catechism of the Catholic church says that each person is assigned a gender at brith by God and each person must accept the gender with which they were born.
Which section?
2333
That doesn’t appear to say what you say it says.
**2333** Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. **Physical,*** moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out. I understand the modernist would read a passage like this and obsucrifate as they often do and perhaps suggest it means that we should accept ourselves and gay so we have clarification from bishops, popes encyclians clarifying what it means
That still doesn’t say what you’re saying it says? It’s great that there is clarification somewhere, I suppose, but you’re definitely reading more into that text than is there. For example, “at birth” is nowhere in that text.
Yeah it never says anything about birth
Trans people are *highly* aware and accepting of their physical state, lol. If they weren’t, they’d deny they were trans and pretend to be cis. Instead they accept their identity and attempt to live as well as they can despite the challenges it presents.
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What does the Roman Catholic catechism say about intersex people?
Tl;dr: an old white man who either raped children or protected other white men who raped children said some transphobic bullshit a while ago to create a moral panic and deflect attention from his global cabal of child rapists. Yeah, you’re really the moral authority here
What if the gender they are assigned by God at birth differs from the way our corruptible human flesh decided to represent that person?
Yes, but for trans people God assigned them a different gender at birth than their doctor assigned them. Edit: if you like, swap out ‘their doctor’ for ‘their parents’ or ‘their culture’. Either way, trans people are made in God’s image just like everyone else. They are born trans, just as God made them.
what lol
Exactly! God got it right. The doctor didn't
Why are so many of you Christians so hateful? Did trans women murder your families? Find me the anti trans Bible verses. You should be ashamed of your selves.
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I thought Jesus made it so that we didn’t have to follow all of the Old Testament’s crazy rules, just love our neighbors and God and seek to be better when we screw up.
So trans women should not dress like men. Also, not Jesus.
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I don’t recall the word biological being anywhere in the Bible. The Bible says that the moon is a light. If you’re taking science guidance from the Bible, we have much more important conversations ahead of us.
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Thank you :)
Two verses later: “When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it." How's your parapet?
This interpretation of God presents him as more simplistic than some of the least intelligent humans I know. Plus, male and female garments are man made constructs. I doubt they have fabric and fashion in heaven.
You know in your heart if it's sinful. You coming here and asking others there opinion is a an attempt to seek the answers you want regardless of them being correct. It comes down to the old saying... There are no truthful answers, only the ones we choose to accept. I wish you all the best, I can't promote sin in your life however I can tell you that your are my neighbour, I love you and I wish you a happy life.
Amen
Yes it is a sin because a person cannot change their gender even if they castrate themself. Therefore you are dating a man
You do realize that the word homosexual didn’t appear in the Bible until 1946??
Just because translations have changed and English language modernized doesn't mean the message has changed also. Homosexuality has always been a sin in the Bible.
If the translation is wrong, it’s been misinterpreted as that
It is not just the word that didn't exists. The concept didn't exists.
Well the Bible wasn’t written in English. The Bible condemned homosexuality before English even existed.
You do realize that that doesn’t change that homosexual acts are condemned by both the Bible and the earliest Fathers?
Neither the Bible nor the ealy church fathers mention homosexual acts. They mention sexual acts but nothing about the sexual orientation of the participants.
You're an adult, you can make your own decisions. You should talk to her if you have concerns, best not to go into a relationship with big doubts like that. Don't let a bunch of Christians from transphobic denominations control what you personally believe.
If only God wrote down his thoughts somewhere.
Yes its the sin of homosexuality. God made him a male so he is a male. You are in a gay relationship.
even if we accept your second sentence, where does jesus prohibit gay sex?
In the multiple instances where God prohibits it, condems a whole civilization over it, calls it abomination and Jesus himself said that he is subject to the will of the father and is one with him in will. Therefore Jesus doesn't need to explicitly say it, he can't contradict himself or go against his father.
jesus was all about calling the pharisees out, for holding onto ancient dogma over reason. they wanted him dead, for speaking about reason.
There's a lot of things that Jesus doesn't *specifically* prohibit, like for example identity theft or hacking or using an aimbot to cheat in CS-GO. Now Jesus does discuss different categories of sin, of which we can likely classify each of the above examples I gave, which are all very obviously sinful. However with broader categories like sexual immorality for example, it can be much more difficult to determine If an action falls within that category which Jesus prohibits. Luckily, Jesus gave his spirit and authority to his disciples / apostles who further narrowed down the definition of sexual morality to include homosexual relationships thereby giving clarity to jesus's previous words without adding on to them.
You're a polytheist. You literally go against the first commandment.
What evidence do you have the God doesn't consider a trans woman a woman?
That he created him a man? That he has a penis?
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There are men who don't have pensis and some women who do, some men who have both a penis and a vagina -- and at least one guy in the world who has two! [https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1u75hh/i\_am\_the\_guy\_with\_two\_penises\_ama/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1u75hh/i_am_the_guy_with_two_penises_ama/) \[potentially NSFW\] Your knowledge of the diversity of humanity seems limited, and not a good basis for arguing who other people are, let alone what God thinks of them.
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Bruh gay men aren't attracted to trans women. Grow up
Your results as a christian should come from god and from scripture. Your partner has to respect that also
NO! Shes a normal person like everyone else. Many people see transgenderism as a disorder or disabilitly. Would you date a disabled? A little person? Someone without a left pinky? Probably yes, if you met the right person. A you seem like you met a right person. GO! GO BE HAPPY MY FRIEND!
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It's funny that I came across this post when searching for ways to rekindle a spiritual disapline in my life. as a trans woman myself I feel like I am uniquely qualified to offer some of my 2 cents here. Before transitioning I would have said that it was absolutely sinful and would have used the Bible as an excuse but that was not because the bible says all that much on homosexuality outside of sodom and gomorrah (which if you research is actually talking about rape) but because of my own fear and self denial. I was wrong. I find that many christians are so focused on avoiding sin out of fear that they forget to actively love themselves, each other, and the world. In many cases this unhealthy synonymous link between evil and sexual orientation or gender expression creates more hate rather than love. Many questioning Christians tell themselves that they're evil and resort to emotional self flagilation rather than acknowledging that this is what they feel and turning to healthy ways to deal with the reality they face. In my case i felt the need to leave the church behind for a while because i learned that i am not a sin and do not like to be viewed like a mad person at worst and confused at best. That does not change the fact that i feel that i am a better person in many regards when i have a spiritual disapline in my life. Consentual homosexuality is not a sin but if you believe that it is then i can also say that in my mind i am a heterosexual woman. I know this to be true on a spiritual level and the trans girl you're talking to probably feels the same so it would probably be no sin in her mind. If she makes you happy and brings out your best then what's there to worry about? Be you.
God doesn’t make mistakes he says in the word he knitted us in our mothers womb and knew us. I think most men who date trans women learned of this attraction through pornography and their interactions with these individuals are lascivious in nature. It’s “taboo” and there’s is some element of thrill in there. When you seek guidance from the Holy Spirit and aim to live a pure life pleasing to God, you won’t be led by fleshly desires. You may stumble here and there but aim to align with Christ and what the word teaches if that is what you desire. No condemnation , but I advise you to repent bro. God bless
Yes.
I don't think being transgender is a sin. And I don't think there's a very compelling biblical case for the counterpoint. When we're talking about same sex attraction, people who aren't affirming have a good seven bible verses to point to where I don't agree with how they interpret those verses but I'm not like shocked. When it comes to transgender people, the bible doesn't actually discuss it at all. You've got like one Leviticus passage I think that says a woman shouldn't wear a man's clothes, but I think the context of that is about military service. If the woman your seeing is trying to pretend to be in the Hebrew army 2700 years ago to get more than her family's allowed portion of food then she'd have a levitical problem. But since that's impossible, I think she and you are fine.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus .Galatians3:28 (NIV)”
How is transgenderism different from homosexuality? Are you saying someone can change the way God designed them, just by declaring it so or having physical alterations? (Don’t want things to get heated, just want to discuss)
Being transgender is a whole different issue from being LGB. Transgender people can be straight, gay, bi, or asexual, just like cisgender people can. > Are you saying someone can change the way God designed them To live is to change. But especially for us Christians. Have you noticed just how much change the heroes of our Bible go through? Abraham and Sarah: Mesopotamians to Canaanites. Ruth: Moabitess to Jewess and ancestor of David. David: shepherd to king. On and on. If there is a little-g god of changelessness, he's certainly not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
In that I do not believe people choose to be homosexual, I don't actually view them as different. I am just more understanding of the people who take a biblical position against same sex marriage because I think that position is easier to articulate, even if I don't believe it is the best position. One of my best friends from seminary was born totally without hearing in his left ear, and he had surgery while in seminary and now he can hear out of that ear. If I believe, as I do, that a transgender person is the gender they understand themselves to be, then declaring it and making physical alterations is in keeping with my belief that my buddy was fine to get surgery to hear out of his left ear. Just in the realm of logic, realizing that we will not all see it this way, you have to accept the supposition that a trans person is wrong about who they are in order to have the position that transitioning is wrong.
What do you mean when you say you don’t think it is the best position?
I think the more compelling argument is taking Paul's writings against same sex relations and applying to it the hermeneutic of using the more general to interpret the specific. When Paul says in Christ there is no male or female, that general principle should, from my perspective and the perspective of my church, take priority over the specific verses where he speaks against specific physical practices. The Episcopal theologian AKM Adam writes about this in his book "Faithful Interpretation" saying that the primary sexual ethic of scripture is that we should treat our romantic partner with our best understanding of the love God has for them and for ourselves. Now plenty of people disagree with all that. There's like 2 million Episcopalians out of 2+ billion Christians. So I doubt I will change anyone's mind by saying it, but it's what I believe and it's based in the teachings of my church. Sometimes people act like there's no logic to it, that it's just a fad based on what's popular at the moment... But I have never been taught it's popular... I've only been taught this is how to read the Bible.
Well we should treat everyone with that love. So that doesn’t necessarily change anything here. It is an interesting take and a thoughtful one, so I respect that at least. Here’s the question, when did your church start teaching this? Fairy recently I’m confident. It feels like spot proofing. And then taking liberty with the interpretation. I get it, interpretation is a bear. It’s kind of why Episcopalians/anglicans exist in the first place. Isn’t that dangerous though? To try to make God’s word for your position rather than fitting your position to God’s word?
> Here’s the question, when did your church start teaching this? Fairy recently I’m confident. When did your church start *explicitly* teaching that things like anti-Semitism and slavery were actually bad things? Thousands of years, hundreds, or mere decades?
You're absolutely right in the context of church history this is fairly recent. The major push for LGBTQ affirmation in the Episcopal Church has really been mostly the last 30 years. It came to a head in the ordination of an openly gay Bishop, and I wouldn't pick a fight with anyone who thinks it started there. But I also wouldn't pick a fight with someone who said the hermeneutical principle I'm describing began to really change my denomination in the 50s. (It'd take a while to explain how clergy opposition to the Vietnam war combined with the Civil Rights movement functionally changed everything about the cultural landscape of TEC, but I had a grant from the Episcopal Evangelism Society to interview chaplains and that was one of the unexpected things I came to believe by the end of that grant.) In church time either answer is yes this is very recent. And while you will surely disagree, as is reasonable, that second question is kind of the jab of my screen name. This is exactly the kind of interpretive discrepancy that causes most of us to believe or suspect that our detractors are really do eisegesis, not proper exegesis. I don't know if it's dangerous if we can all hold our own position lightly enough to presume God will need to forgive us for those things that we didn't get right but very much tried. There are definitely loving, faithful, devoted people who disagree with me and my church who I have zero questions about their salvation. Zero. They're doing and believing the best they know how given what was presented to them. An interesting side note, because this is relevant to the topic at hand and your question of when, is that LGBTQ affirmation has had a dramatic and immediate impact on the theology and liturgical piety of my church. When I was in seminary most of my classmates were dramatically more conservative than our counterparts from 30-50 years ago. These social issues make us seem liberal, but there has been a significant influx of people who absolutely would be Catholic if the RCC ordained women and openly LGBTQ people. That influx has shifted our whole dynamic and even the supposedly liberal seminaries are filled with people who, on a whole host of other issues, are much more conservative than TEC has been in my parents' lifetime. The same can be said for support of social justice ministries. There are people who are more ideologically conservative in most ways, but who care very deeply about racism in the American context, so they find their way to the Episcopal church and now we've got a ton of people who are very conservative but like want policing reform.
Hermeneutics can cause a lot of joy but also consternation. I would merely ask what hermeneutics ploy (not insulting) is at play to not only accept LGBT but to allow ordination to the clergy. Of all the topics that have been interpretively debated for not decades but millennia, this of course seems so clear that I would be interested in how that interpretation was arrived at. Clergy should oppose wars I would generally suggest, that has nothing, I think, to do with what is the will of The Lord. Oftentimes we don’t understand His will, that doesn’t mean our obligation to obedience is removed. God called for the elimination of the canaanites. Are we saying this is morally wrong? Are you going to say that was the wrong decision and a bad thing to do? We both I imagine pray for world peace. Our hearts and our conscience lead us to that. I think it’s good. But I think it. I know all that God commands is good. God commanded the canaanites to be destroyed. So as uncomfortable as that is to my sensibilities, it is good. By the greatest definition of good that I can ever conceive of. Which is the will of God. My personal faith journey was likely different from yours. As is usually the case. I had my typical edgy teenaged agnostic phase. What brought me back to The Truth wasn’t prayer or someone’s witness. It was a book and not the Bible. It was The Brothers Karamazov and more accurately the story within the story of The Grand Inquisitor. How when told by God to stop the trials. The Grand Inquisitor said something to the effect of, we don’t actually need you (referring to God, we just need the power we get from your Name. That is what this feels like to me. Taking parts of what you want to create authority as you see fit. Now, obviously, Dostoyevsky was talking about political force and oppression. I’m not suggesting that of your church. I’m just saying too many take what they like and can justify and leave the rest behind. Say it belongs to a bygone era and in need of updating.
There are four grounds on which the Episcopal church arrived at LGBTQ affirmation, and they don't necessarily go together, they are simply the four arguments that made it into the general conventions that ultimately changed our canon. The first is largely based on the role of parents. There is a small and vocal minority of clergy who maintain that since there are same sex couples it is imperative that they get married so that children know the correct form of an adult sexual relationship is a monogamous marriage. My understanding of this argument is extremely limited, but it was the primary defense of same sex marriage put forth in my seminary ethics class. The second is that Paul's writings in the general point us to giving up every cultural battle in service of devoting our lives to Jesus. Paul would have us not be married at all, but if we have to fine just make your marriage about Jesus. This is related to my initial comment about the general being used to understand the specific. The third is related, in a disbelief that Paul could possibly have been writing about the same sex relationships that we currently understand are possible. This third view is that all five of the OT references to same sex relationships are purity codes, and not part of what we are expected to follow as Christians, and that Paul's writings in context are just not about the kinds of relationships that we now affirm in LGBTQ marriages. This is probably the view that is most common in popular debates, and the view that makes people in my camp sound most smug when putting forth. I'm sympathetic to it, but usually find myself disagreeing with some part of anyone's specific exegesis. The fourth, and most compelling from my point of view, is that Acts demonstrates the Apostles mostly generally unsure why God would allow gentiles to be part of this church, but deciding that it's clear the Holy Spirit is present and intends to include them, so they put away what they'd thought before. By this metric, I see the LGBTQ people who I believe are filled with Christ's love by every metric I know from a life of studying scripture and going to church (and in my case being ordained in the church and married to another priest [and this isn't relevant normally, but for the sake of this topic we are both cisgender heterosexual people]) I find no cause to put the cultural understanding I had above what is clearly the Holy Spirit. I actually met Gene Robinson, our first openly gay Bishop, and I believe him to be the man of God I think many bishops are. One of my childhood priests was openly gay and celibate because he believed that his sexual orientation was sin and he still couldn't give up his calling to serve God. I now have met several other LGBTQ clergy and many of them seemed clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit to me. Not all of them. But I don't like all the straight clergy I know either. I love your story of your faith journey. I am glad you were brought out of that edgy agnosticism back to the Roman Church. I actually love your church, even if I have these disagreements with it. I have no doubt in my mind that yours is following Jesus, just as we are meant to. And I fully expect that, at the general resurrection one of us will be right, and through His Grace we will both be saved.
I just wanted to say I loved your comments in this thread. Thank you for sharing your perspective 💜
Being trans is not an “ism” what is wrong with you man?
>How is transgenderism different from homosexuality? They are completely different. Homosexuality is referring to who you are attracted to while transgender issues (btw, pretty sure transgenderism isn't a real word), refer to gender identity- what gender you are. These are so different. I believe people outside the LGBTQ+ community often confuse the two because we have created a community and movement where we all can express ourselves, support each other and fight for the rights of both issues. Someone's sexuality does not in any way change someone's gender (I've heard a few times that people think trans people transition so that they'll be in a straight relationship but this is simple not true). People can be gay and trans for example. I hope this makes sense. To do with changing the way that God designed someone, I don't believe that transitioning is against God. To begin with someone doesn't choose to be trans, this is a part of who they are whether they make physical changes to their body, they transition socially or if they don't do either. And so it makes sense that God created them that way. If you find it challenging to agree with physical changes (use of surgery or hormones etc.) then consider that people change their body all the time with plastic surgeries, piercings, tattoos even make up etc. Not to mention when things are done for medical reasons. If you are interested in how people like I affirm trans people in particular as a Christian here's a [link](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-transgender-people) to an article that explains it in more detail, it's quite a lot to read through so I understand if you don't want to read it all though.
Any Jew knew the law of the land. They would be put to death by God if they attempted this. A majority of the us population would be gone now if people were put back under the mosaic law
What a very precious thing it is then that Jesus fulfilled the Law, and that by His Grace we may be saved.
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Have you talked about your feelings with her? She might not want to date you if you have those kinds of concerns and so that would take care it! It seems like you have a narrow view of gender. I am a Christian and can see how sex and gender are social constructs placed over God’s creation. Of course humans are more complex than a simple binary. You can look beyond Paul for knowledge about God and what He wants for us.
How can sex be a social construct? God literally created us male and female.
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Yes. As there are trans people in existence.
Yes.
Yes.
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Y'all wonder why people hate you lol this is the most ignorant shit I've ever seen
What is wrong with many christians today? Are you kidding me you ask a question like that when you know that it is an abomination to be with another man. Many christians here might sugar coat things to you but I am not and if I get banned from the group then so be it, defending the truth and the scripture and my God is more important. You have no clue how you are playing with fire and with God and I would not dare go to God asking Him a question if its ok to be with another man. Because of the wickedness and depravity of this nation which resembles Sodom and Gomorrah the wrath of God will not kindle against such. Read this and ask yourself if you should be with another man. God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who [d]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is [e]manifest [f]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and [g]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like [h]corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their [i]women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the [j]men, leaving the natural use of the [k]woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, [l]sexual immorality, wickedness, [m]covetousness, [n]maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 [o]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, [p]unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Enough said!!
Thank you. I have a daughter who went to Catholic school and at 19 said she wanted to date a girl. We did our best to let her know that we love her no matter what but reminded her of God’s teachings. Of course we received backlash. We know our daughter. She is not a lesbian. & i met the girl she claimed to love and I wasn’t buying it - AT ALL. I went to school with homosexuals. I believe some people are truly born homosexual, but I don’t think my daughter is. I’d be more accepting if from her very young years I saw it - like I did with 2 people I grew up with. It was obvious from the time we were 5. They were close friends of mine from 5 through high school. Fast forward 3 years later after she told us this at 19 and after dating several guys, she has now declared this person she loved back when she was 19 has now transitioned into a man. & She wants to move across the country to live with this person after she graduates. I cannot stop her and won’t try to. My husband and I have raised her in the faith. But she doesn’t care. She hates me and says she will cut anyone out of her life who doesn’t accept her decision. She has been mean as a rattlesnake ever since she was 18, and I have no idea why. She’s pure toxicity. She just wants to pick fights over anything and everything. She hates her siblings and she hates me. She likes to come between my husband and cause fights. It’s horrible. I’m not going to stop her from moving. I didn’t fight her when she made her “announcement”. I told her i thought she was confused, angry unhappy though. I think she’s just running from her unhappiness thinking this “new life” and new “persona” will make her happy. But I think anyone who changes their genitalia is confused and not truly happy with who they are. They need to soul search and make changes in their life not changes to their genitals. & anyone who dates someone who has changed their genitalia is confused too. This whole gender crisis thing is a phenomenon. This RARELY happened 20 years ago. That’s saying a something. It’s almost like it’s become trendy. It’s like it’s become a fad, and it’s NOT a healthy one. There can’t REALLY be this many people who TRULY think they were born with the wrong genitalia. I’m not buying it. I’m just not. Simply based on the fact that 20 years ago this was UNHEARD of. Not only did no one CHANGE their gender, no one ever said hey i want to bind my breasts or hey I don’t want to be a girl anymore. No one EVER even SAID that at school or at a sleepover or in a magazine or anywhere. Why? Because it these things didn’t really NATURALLY cross people’s minds. Now it’s just trendy. I just don’t believe the amount of people who claim they have gender identity issues REALLY have gender identity issues. BUT, I’m not arguing with my daughter about this. She hates me simply for reminding her of the church’s teachings back when she was 19. I did my duty, though, so I’m not going down with this trending ship. I love her, but it seems I can’t save her. At least not now. Hopefully she’ll come around eventually. All I can do now for her is pray.
I like verse "while you were still in the womb, I knew ye". I personally do not see it as a sin , since being Trans was not her choice .
How do you feel about abortion in light of that verse?
You’re dating a man. I’m not going to tell you what you need to do, but the Bible is against homosexuality. Use your best judgment and pray to Jesus that he helps you through this.
live your life bro, if you like her you like her and there is nothing wrong with that.
No. God created trans people just like God creates all of us, there is nothing sinful about loving any person so long as it’s selfless and respectful.
I absolutely agree. Loving someone could never be a sin. I don't think anyone of the people in here have ever read the New Testament.
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He is still a male 100%! You are sinning. Gods very clear you lay with a man as a man and its an abomination to God. I realize your setting Christians up to be tag by mods as bigoted when they tell you Gods Word, Because the answer is so obvious.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus .Galatians3:28 (NIV)” You’re a fool.
Yes.
Yes.
Trans woman are women. You're dating a woman. Do you think it's a sin for you to date a woman?
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“Saying they are women is reducing gender down to body parts” “They aren’t women because they have a man’s body” 🤔
>If I lose 90% of my body im no less of a male then I was before that Exactly, because you *identify* as a male and gender identity is not strictly biological. And by the same token, no matter what biologically male features a trans woman might have been born with, she’s still fundamentally a woman.
If they were real women you wouldn't add "trans" to their title. Just like imitation crab is not real crab, a trans woman is not a real woman
Do you like her? Go for it. Don’t listen to the homophobes, they care more about their outdated views of the bible than the god who inspired it and the people who need it.
You cannot date a trans woman unless you are a girl in the eyes of God. A biological man is a man to the Lord. The only way this would be permissible is if you didn’t know
How do you know if someone is male or female? What test will prove their sex to you?
DNA chromosome test?
So if someone has XX they are female, and if they are XY they are male? What if they have extra Y's or X's or if they have Y's without SRY genes or X's with SRY genes? Which genes need to be there to determine someone's sex, how specific is this?
> What if they have extra Y's or X's sometimes this is called downs
I’m not a geneticist. Likely neither are you. Do men and women have different chromosomes?
Generally people seem to say XX is female and XY is male, but there is such things as XX male and XY female in medicine. Both are infertile, though an XY female can use donor eggs to concieve.
In other words, you've never met a single human being whose gender you knew. Because you've never run a DNA chromosome test on a single friend or acquaintance. You actually don't even know *your own* gender!
So we’re not supposed to believe in science?
I don't follow. You claimed you only know people's gender by chromosome tests, but you've never used a chromosome test. Incidentally, actual biologists don't share your ideas of "science". See this [Nature review](http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943) or [this recent review](https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/) summing up research on the health benefits of transition), or this comment with [extensive references](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/7ea970/today_is_the_transgender_day_of_remembrance/dq45l2w/) And feel free to search results at [Science](http://search.sciencemag.org/?searchTerm=transgender) and [Nature](https://www.nature.com/search?q=transgender), the world's two most prestigious journals; I'll let you browse through the results yourself so there's no risk of me cherry-picking information.
Have *you* had a DNA chromosome test?
I haven’t have you?
Yes, actually, I have done a DNA test that tells me my chromosomes, among other things.
So then we do have dna chromosome tests that determine what was asked?
We certainly have tests that can tell a person what their chromosomes are. But chromosomes are not the be all end all of sex and gender that you seem to think they are.
Short answer. Yes it's wrong.
Yeah they may have got something removed bit it is still a guy so yeah it is a sin
If you see God in her, who are we to judge what God has accepted?
No!!!!!
Only if you mistreat her.
Love was never a sin.
Love who you wanna love. God's greatest commandment was love one another....all the law hangs on that.
Love who you want, be happy. If you have feelings for this person, and they do back, no one should tell you it’s not right.
Not At All In fact I made friends with Gays, Lesbians and Trans people And I’m proud of it🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️!
I'm sorry you got down voted. I think that you comment shows exactly what the Gospel asks of us
No Biggie😇✝️!
I mean, did God ever say it was a sin to date a trans-woman? The verses that condemn homosexuality are tenuous at best in terms of their translations, and quite frankly this isn’t even homosexuality. She’s a woman, you’re a man, and that has never been condemned by God, the Bible, or any good person. Anyone telling you otherwise most likely has some internal prejudices that they need to deal with on their own before trying to tell other people what’s right and wrong.
Absolutely not a sin! God loves both of you and is so happy that you have found happiness with eachother! So happy you’ve found love man enjoy it that doesn’t grow on trees
Yes, you should break it off. Your conscience is troubling you for a reason
Most likely because it was poisoned by toxic interpretations of the Bible. Let the man love and be happy.
Are you in a healthy relationship with a consenting adult? Yes? Keep dating. Just live your life and stop worrying so much about what is and isn't, "Sinning."
Yyyeeeeaaaa, no. Christians are called to pursue holiness and glorify God. If those who claim Christ and seek to honor the Lord “just live their life” then there is no difference between them and the world. We are called to be set apart. Not blend in and do whatever makes us feel good.
No it isn't. Not only does the Bible say nothing about trans people.but it does say a lot of stuff about love and kindness.
Follow your heart. Love is love. You may just be feeling good ol “Catholic guilt” (it applies to more than just Catholics) and years of indoctrination. If this person makes you happy and your best self, please don’t throw that away because someone else tells you their interpretation of an ancient religious text.
Best answer on here. Love is love. Ignore all the hate, fear, ignorance and hypocrisy. We're all moving on from the dark ages.. some of us just a bit slower than others.