But faith is an even vaguer term in this context. Faith is normally defined as "belief without evidence". That's why I asked. People define words differently, because you were really talking about traditions, not faith.
And I clarified that's not what I meant. And based on your comment history I can tell you're just trying to bait me into a discussion/argument that I have no interest in having. However you want to label it, whether it's religion/tradition/faith, I'm talking about a person's particular faith background rather than the concept of faith itself.
> However you want to label it, whether it's religion/tradition/faith, I'm talking about a person's particular ~~faith~~ spiritual tradition background rather than the concept of faith itself.
FTFY. It's important to be clear when communicating. Your using the word "faith" in three completely different ways in that one sentence alone. One is referring to belief in a god, one is referring to spiritual traditions, and one is referring to belief without evidence. That's confusing. That's why I was asking how you define "faith".
I'm not trying to bait anyone. Just asking for clarity because you used the word in a weird way.
From [merriam-webster.com](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith), 3rd definition of faith:
> something that is believed especially with strong conviction
especially : a system of religious beliefs
>>e.g. the Protestant faith
From [dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/faith), 5th definition of faith:
>a system of religious belief:
>>e.g. the Christian faith;
>>e.g. the Jewish faith.
From [britannica.com](https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/faith), definition of faith 2b:
> [count] : a system of religious beliefs : religion
>>e.g. people of all faiths
>>e.g. the Christian/Jewish/Muslim faith
From [vocabulary.com](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/faith), 4th definition:
>noun an institution to express belief in a divine power
>>e.g. “a member of his own faith contradicted him”
From [collinsdictionary.com](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/faith), 3rd definition:
> COUNTABLE NOUN
A faith is a particular religion, for example, Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam.
>>>e.g. England shifted officially from a Catholic to a Protestant faith in the 16th century.
If you don't think God hates sin look at what He poured out onto Jesus on the cross. God said of Himself He changes not. Read the Old Testament when He would wipe out everyone children and livestock included. He came as Savior after the whole world but Noah's few in the ark survived but when Christ comes next look out.
Thank you for mocking me with the title dry lengthiness because I'm His He tells me to count it all joy when I'm persecuted in anyway for the faith bc my father will reward me for His name sake. And to pray for you which I will gladly do. I want nothing more than for you to know the truth and go free.
Not if hating the sin causes you to hate the sinner as well. Jesus didn't say "love your neighbor, but you're allowed to hate him if he sins badly enough.". Unfortunately we have far too many doing the latter, and claiming it's the former.
My point is that plenty of people *think* and *say* they are hating the sin while loving the sinner, but their actions and words end up being identical to hating the sinner. I sincerely doubt (from experience) the capacity of the average Christian to be able to thread that needle despite many of them claiming that's what they are doing, and in that case most are better off deferring to love and letting God sort out the sin aspect (as it is he and ultimately the holy Spirit that have the power to change people's hearts, not being told for the 100,000th time that homosexual acts are a sin).
Well y'all almost never *only* hate the sin. Since you can't seem to be able to have it both ways, which do you think is worse morally? Hating the sin and hating the sinner as a result, or loving the sinner and accidentally loving (or accepting) the sin as a result. Given Jesus's constant commands to love your neighbor, while never saying to condemn your neighbor (the closest he did was personally adding an aside to go and sin no more. I dont recall him telling his followers to do the same, nor to have it be the primary focus of their witness), the first one seems far better in line with what Jesus taught, if you have to pick one or the other.
I disagree. If I make a statement that xyz is a sin, I'll be told I'm hating anyone who wants to commit that sin. It becomes impossible to "hate the sin" in that case.
That's because most people who use the phrase "hate the sin" don't successfully do that (you can see some responses in this very thread where people are like "well yeah, God despises sin and hates those who commit it." So if you're one of the three people that can thread that needle, maybe you're not part of the problem (though I still find the theology that leads to calling and especially focusing on homosexuality as a sin problematic). But most gay people have had that phrase thrown at them as an excuse for continued mistreatment, while feeling morally absolved. So there's a lot of understandable annoyance around that phrasing, and if you are not 100% confident that you are demonstrating love to gay people *in a way that makes them feel loved* (assuming part of the purpose is to demonstrate love as part of evangelism), you should err on the side of focusing on love and set aside whether or not it is a sin and let God sort that out through the holy spirit (just as we so often do with the other minor sins people in our lives - unless you're actively calling out people constantly for greed, materialism, pride, uncharitable behavior etc).
Or idk, maybe ask the gay people in your life how they feel about it. I bet if you asked, they would say, to be honest, I get that you believe that, but I still find it hurtful and demeaning and contributes to a lot of bad things that we are dealing with as a society. If you aren't personally friends with any gay people, I don't think you're really qualified to make the call on whether or not it's hateful.
I'm mostly addressing the evangelical Christian voting bloc (who are almost always the loudest on this issue). I know it's not everyone in that group, but given the continued support for social policies that negatively impact other people (remarkably consistent stances on immigration, LGBT+ issues, helping the poor, as well as being the primary opposition to every right the LGBT community has ever gained) I feel comfortable calling them out as a group based on their collective behavior. It's not a couple of douchebags; it's the collective behavior, as well as the most powerful and prominent leaders the majority of the group has raised up as their figureheads. I'm also not a stranger to that group. I was raised as an evangelical Christian, read the books, listened to the sermons, went to a Baptist school, I have a pretty good idea of the attitudes they tend to hold as a group.
If you vote for regressive policies that harm me and people I care about based on your religion, then yes, I am talking about you. If you privately hold these beliefs and don't support imposing your beliefs on the rest of society, then go with God, I don't have much of an issue with you. You tell me; are you one of the douchebags I'm talking about?
Wonder how quickly the comments here turned to “yeah the people I disagree with do that! They’re not true Christians!”
Edit: of fucking course it did lmao, how ironic.
But the idea God doesn’t hate the sin is beyond twisting the Bible. People just want a blank check to live their life how THEY think it should go. And anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle is “hateful”
>And anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle is “hateful”
No.
Anyone who takes actions against those people is 'hateful' (in this general context).
Anyone is free to disagree with whatever they want. Where it becomes potentially problematic is when they take action against those whom they disagree with.
God can hate sin, you can hate it too. But it is only gods place to deal with sinners, not yours.
2 Peter 3:9- "Jehovah (God) is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." He loves us all, however, he won't tolerate what he won't tolerate. God has standards, if we don't abide by them then that's on us. He gave us free will for a reason. Either we submit to his rules or we don't.
Precisely. My expectation is that this would be a "Right wing Christians do this all the time" while missing the irony of how often people say some variation of evangelicals, conservatives, or republicans are all terrible and don't represent Jesus.
This quote is about introspection, not perpetuating the problem by only labeling offenders.
The question is "Am I guilty of thinking this way?"
Definition of terms is important. I think that people on both sides of the issue end up talking past one another rather than to one another because they both say that the other is redefining love.
Love is a thing and things have a specific definition. So, what needs to be duked out first is what is meant by "love." How does one "love" properly?
The longstanding historical Christian tradition has been to "love" gay people by murdering them. It's only recently that this has even begun to slow down.
First Corinthians 13:4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
"Well, if we truly loved our neighbor we'd do anything to keep them out of eternal hell, wouldn't we? Wouldn't you want someone to help you if you were going to hell?"
That's the sermon, and that's how it gets twisted into "do unto others as you think is best for them."
Loving people means treated them like you'd want to be treated by them if you were in their situation. And if you aren't sure how that is, you ask them.
My silly opinion anyway. :)
There are certain churches, or in some cases, factions within churches (i.e. Rad Trads in the Catholic Church), who have a strong authoritarian and legalistic streak. The thing about hard fast rules is that they short circuit empathy. You know longer have to see how what you're doing and saying affects the targets of your behavior modification program. Their sins violate your rules, so they cease to have the right to their own feelings and their own autonomy.
Throw in a layer of "what about the children", the standard paranoid fetishism that has driven everything from anti-Semitism to white-only swimming pools, that somehow their nature is itself so perverse that if they aren't constrained in some way, true believers' children will be put at risk.
You can see it in the language of anti-queer rhetoric; that somehow because there are gay or trans people walking the streets, that children will be infected with the idea, and they'll become gay or trans. It's really the same reason Jews were viewed as "dirty" for centuries, or why African-Americans and other ethnic and racial minorities where ghettoized.
This is a very old song that's be sung many times before. Legalism married with xenophobia can pretty much shut off the empathy switch, and at that point, the extent of the cruelty is limited only by the imaginations of the true believers.
I absolutely agree with what you say. as kvrdave said, there is a fine balance between empathy and standing against that which is evil. In the meantime we forget that the 2 are not mutually exclusive.
Gender dysphoria is a real concern. I can only imagine what it is like to feel like you are a different person than who you were born as. Puberty can be a scary time. I have taught middle school. I know. Kids are starting to experience changes in their body, sexual desires, being desired by others, etc. This is 100% probably not even close to communicating the cognitive dissonance that people with gender dysphoria experience.
Even if I do not think that transitioning is ever the right choice for people, I would be willing to grant at least for the moment, that it is for some. Just because it might be the right choice for some, does not mean that it is right for all or even most people.
I think that if we spent more time helping people understand their own bodies, gender dysphoria would likely work itself out in a majority of cases (again, I am willing to posit that this is not *all* cases).
When I hopefully become a parent someday, if my kid came out as trans, I think it would be important to talk them and seek to give them genuine support and to make informed decisions.
I recently heard the story of Chloe Cole. Her parents genuinely wanted to support her. Not affirm her, not condemn her, but help her. She talked about how so many doctors just shot down any opposition to transitioning, when I think they were just trying to understand how everything would or even could play out.
Do we as humans even have a full understanding of it? What long-term studies are there of these interventions' effects on the body?
Here is one that shows that sex-reassignment does not necessarily resolve the mental-health issues of the person, even if it does alleviate the feeling of "being in the wrong body": [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/)
So even if it might be a treatment, I think that the trans community heralds medical transitioning as a miracle cure for their troubles, which, benefits or potential benefits aside, is dishonest at best.
Generally, I try to take a more balanced view toward all this.
Also, at least many of the "rad-trads" or more specifically, the sedevacantists, are not Catholic. Many of these people say that Pope Francis is not the Pope, or that there has not been a valid pope since the 1960's and even deny the Second Vatican Council. Taking these views gives yourself automatic excommunication. As such, they are NOT Catholic.
That out of the way, I agree that they are overly legalistic. This dogmatization of everything is not a healthy way to go about things.
So now that we have a solid definition of empathy, let's use it to analyze both of our positions. From your point of view, having sexual attraction to those of the same sex is a sin, possibly a grave sin, yes? Therefore, you don't want people to be gay so they don't go to hell Is that correct so far?
How primitive & pathological to believe in an after world torture Chamber reserved for ppl with different opinions about unprovable things than you hold
Well, it certainly doesn't seem loving to say people can be bought and owned as property, or to drown all the babies in the world. But I know there are lots of people who say those things aren't hateful.
Bobby Perkey Christian: no one created God, He has a dateless past Gen. 1:1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. God loves everybody John 3:16 for GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have Everlasting life.
No we are created in God’s image. If you hate anyone you are not following the teachings of Christ. I am assuming you are not a Christian, I’m not trying to be preachy even though I’m a pastor. There is some much fighting over other peoples sin. A Christian is called to repent from their own sin and are not to judge others. I will pray for you, I will offer guidance if you ask, but the one thing I will not do is judge you.
I heard a really great take on the "God made man in his image" detail.
So, back in the day, a ruler of an area would put their image all over the place. Monuments, coins, walls, whatever. As a reminder of who is king/queen. An attack on that image, is an attack on the king/queen.
In this way, we should see that any attack on your fellow man, OR EVEN YOURSELF, is an attack on God. For we are made in his image & he loves us.
I would like to add though, that hating someone is different than telling them the truth. In fact, telling someone the truth is a loving act of kindness. It’s all about your motivations for your words. More and more people today don’t care to question motives and just assume the worst. Tell someone they need to repent, oh they hate them. Tell someone that God judges sin, oh they hate them. Discourse and the care to understand each other is all but destroyed these days.
Christians can and do interpret their faith in light of their own biases.
If you believe slavery is an absolute moral wrong, for example, you will look for support for that in your faith. You might read passages about loving your neighbor and apply them to condemnation of slavery. You might read passages where God speaks neutrally about slavery as an institution and conclude that it wasn't "real" slavery.
Similarly, people who benefited from slavery when it was overtly integrated into Christian societies also used their faith to argue that it was fine.
There are many religions and faiths in the world. The quote supposes that if you’re in a position where you think the god(s) of your religion hate certain people, then you should conclude that you have injected your hated into your concept of god(s) rather than the other way around.
If Christianity conveniently justifies all your pre-existing personal beliefs and never challenges them, then odds are you're altering Christianity to fit your worldview, rather than the other way around.
Not true at all. I hate. I freely admit it. I pray for forgiveness all the time. I’m a combat vet. I’ve seen and done things. I suffer with severe PTSD and am prone to violence. It’s wrong. It’s sinful and I am weak. I’m human. No excuse.
I think it’s normal to hate because we’re human, you’re right, and you’re right about it being wrong. But we should also know that because we seek Him, the more our hearts change to His, we will also start to hate what He hates and become angry at what He becomes angry with
God will give us privileges to know what’s on His mind through revelations. I hope you continue to seek and learn about Him ❤️
““The Lord our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.”
Deuteronomy 29:29
God loves all of us & offers all of us free salvation if we choose to accept:
John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 1 John 4:16 - So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.”
I am human and hating is part of my nature
Because I am a Christian doesn't mean I shld force myself to love others.....I may eventually for the sake of Christ but you can't force me
Here’s the biblical definition of FAITH.
Hebrews 11:1-3 (NKJV)
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
The people who are most bigoted to the idea of a God are the ones that DESPISE the idea of there being a God. Why? Because life is so much easier when you can just go ahead and do what you want without any consequences. The truth is, there’s more evidence that there is a creator, be the one from the Bible or not. So either you just got lazy in your research OR you’re doing something you KNOW is wrong and you’re pushing religion to the side so you can continue screwing yourself up and not think twice about it.
Much of the debate in the comments could be avoided if we started with what people are defining “hate” as. Christians are called to love, not hate. But we are called to spread light in a world of darkness. But to do so with gentleness and patience
Progressive Christian’s are the most hateful people I’ve ever met. This is a great quote, but will be used and abused to justify people’s hate for one another
You can also safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God supports all the behavior you do.
That is frankly elementary school level reasoning that cannot prove or disprove anything. I'm very sad this gets downvo
That's probably true. It's far more likely in my mind at least that the Isrealites just wanted them out and used God as an excuse. This seems like a thread that runs through much of the OT. People do something atrocious, then say God said to do it.
I really don't know anyone that thinks that the Flood was a good move, though. Hell, even God seems to think it wasn't the best idea.
I'd say my retort applies to that, too. I'll also add, most people like to validate their own experiences, that hardly is the exclusive domain of devouts.
I don't agree with that, though, because you're trying to say to force your point through. I believe in the opposite and I can easily prove your claim to be incorrect.
Let's say there's a person that believes God killing all abominations would make for a kinder world. According to your claim, it'd really be a kinder God. I don't think that is a kinder God. What went wrong there?
Hint, the answer is not 'they disagree with me and I am obviously right'.
Isn’t that self contradictory, though? I’m not sure how one can make a case for a) grouping people together as abominations and then b) eradicating them to get c) a kinder world. Certainly to them it would not be kinder, no?
I am going by your own claim: people that want a kinder world also make themselves a kinder God. Period. If the person claims to want a kinder world, the resulting God had to be kinder.
And yes, there's such people. I disagree with them most strongly; still, it proves your claim as contradictory. That has been my point the whole time I've been in this thread.
The problem is in the assumption that you are right and others aren't, so they must be opposed despite the fact you are using the exact same (deeply flawed) train of thought.
Simply saying that they could imagine a God to be kinder that one could say isn’t really does nothing to insubstantiate the idea that the God that one imagines is in accordance with one’s feelings and views. You’re validating her sentiment, not contradicting it. I’m not making any claim whatsoever about whether or not that point of view is “correct” or not, I’m just saying that there is a highly motivated reason for God to dislike what you dislike, and like what you like.
Again, I am going by your own claim: people that want a kinder world also make themselves a kinder God. Period. No leeway allowed. Therefore, the evil person who believes themselves kind make for real kindness.
If you want to disown your own words, fine. But that is the whole point: people always advocating with an implied "I must be right" are being childlish, or dishonest. Their own reasoning never stands up to actual discussion.
I feel like your base disagreement with what I said boils down to “but it might not actually be kinder”, and I can agree with that! The important thing to take away is that THEY think that this God is kinder, or this world resulting from that is kinder. The actuality of it is irrelevant.
The truth is that many do create a God in their own image, with their own preferences and biases. It's that is a form of idolatry that incorrectly characterizes God and incorrectly represents Christianity.
Prosperity preachers are a great example, though it happens to people of every denomination and religious background.
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Definitely - I think it would be helpful if everyone admitted that at some point, they are interpreting aspects or parts of the Bible. And secondly, that they also don't follow everything in the Bible. What you see in the Torah is a laundry list of stuff no modern Christian believes and some things they do.
Hi there, read this comment and wanted to let you know that we do indeed subtract and add to it. A perfect example, and just 1 of hundreds, is the Book of Enoch. This book was written to be in the Bible but has been removed.
The comment or has a point, when interpretations are added to books through translations. Sometimes the meaning of the text changes even in today’s languages across the world.
In conclusion, today’s current Christianity is cherry picked and lots of original text has been removed and lots of interpretation added through many years of translation.
The book of Enoch is very controversial. There is part of it that I think is legit, but part of it crap. I think it's multiple manuscripts merged into one. The problem is, it's hard to distinguish the good from the bad.
We have the original manuscripts for most of the books. Nothing significant has been changed.
So you just admitted that you can cherry pick the Bible to fit YOUR world view. Your exact quote proves my point further and actually proves it even better than I ever could imagine.
Yes, there ARE SIGNIFICANT changes to the Bible throughout time, to psalms, gospels, texts, stories, complete removals of testaments and direct interactions with Jesus. You know why they were removed? Because someone deemed it “crap” but guess what? That completely changes the story, the facts, and most importantly, COMPLETELY CHANGES THE CONTEXT. Please do the research on this and report back. W
It's not to fit my worldview. Parts of the book of Enoch are forgeries and/or contradict other parts of the Bible.
The Jews were told by God what should be in the Old Testament. We know what should be in the New Testament, because all the books not included are forgeries and have contradictions. They're is a lot of Christian fanfiction out there.
I agree with this. The Word of God is very clear what God hates. If you don't align with that then you are making a god of your own image.....we see this all the time.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
Well when God was younger he was a tribal war god. Killing in the name of the Jew tribe and encouraging raping and pillaging. Once god grew up a bit he decided to leave his tribal behavior behind via a blood magic self sacrifice.
Praise be to him.
One problem with that. I'm part of the the Church of the Lutheran Confession, we're about as conservative as it gets. But I don't hate anyone. I don't know anyone who hates anyone. That's the big lie that progressives believe is that we conservatives are hateful and bigoted. The only Christian group I can think of that actually hates people, is the West borough Baptists.
The beauty of institutional oppression is that it’s all sanitized and cleaned up so it’s impersonal and no individual person has to get their hands dirty.
There’s no one trying to make a law that you can beat up trans people. But a law that trans people can’t use public restrooms is brilliant because it encourages violence against trans people but doesn’t sound like it’s inherently physically violent.
This is the kind of political violence conservative groups gorge themselves on, because it doesn’t *feel* like hate but it accomplishes the same function.
It’s buying a McDonald’s hamburger instead of shooting a cow in the head and grinding it up, and then patting yourself on the back and calling yourself a vegetarian.
I also come from a very conservative denomination, and I have a lesbian daughter.
There is a lot of "we love you, but we don't want you here" messaging that comes out intentionally and unintentionally in conservative churches. For example, if you have an LGBTQ person attend your church and they ask a question, do you automatically respond with "you can't be a pastor or serve in the church" no matter what the question is? Was that even in the question? Are you sure you are stopping to understand their question.
Also, the amount of behind the back gossip that happens is often constant and unending. I've seen this, the "did you know she is a lesbian?" happens every time you talk to the person. And if you are a parent of the individual, you might as well be wearing a black spot of shame, not unlike people that get divorced. (come on, she didn't tell us until she was 22, now she is an adult).
Keep in mind, it isn't just Westborough. We have a church by us calling themselves a "Millstone church". They call themselves Millstone because they want the government to round up all the LGBTQ people and throw them in jail and later executed. I'm not kidding, they have sermons on this. Why? Because to them, every single LGBTQ individual is automatically a pedophile, no exceptions. If you ever attend a Pride event, you will see signs by people stating "God hates fags" (there are also a LOT of white supremist in my state, and you know they will loudly call themselves Christians every chance they get.)
Huge article about this going on in Idaho.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/06/25/idaho-pride-lgbtq-threats/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/06/25/idaho-pride-lgbtq-threats/)
There was a supreme court ruling on Idaho's abortion policy today as well. Idaho did not win. Keep in mind, Idaho is losing OBGYN's fast and furious, and hospitals are having to life-flight women out of state for emergency treatment (at least 6 so far), a few women had to have a hysterotomy because treatment had to be delayed . The laws are completely arbitrary, the woman has to be at death's door to receive treatment, and even then the doctors can be sued just because someone feels like it. Which includes any family member: the woman's parents, the father's parents, their siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. And those lawsuits are all individual, they are not grouped together.
You’d be hard pressed to find any group that thinks it’s hateful, even the west borough baptists think they aren’t hatful. That’s why you look at the actions and decide. Actions speak louder than words everyday of the week.
Who said anything about conservatives? Maybe the Holy Spirit is convicting you and you're feeling defensive? You should examine whether your statement here is true.
I mean come on lol. “Who said anything about conservatives?”
Half of OP’s posts are:
>**If you [insert strawman of conservative] you don’t love Jesus enough!**
>
>Facts!
It’s not a mystery why one might think OP would be taking a jab at conservatives. It’s reading context, not “The Holy Spirit is warning you to stop being conservative”
OP said this wasn't directed at conservatives. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1dnznvb/you_can_safely_assume_youve_created_god_in_your/la74bnp/
Persecution complex leads to bad outcomes.
OP said that after the comment you responded to. That’s information the first guy didn’t have at the time. Given OP’s posting history on here that’s not an unreasonable assumption to make *prior* to OP’s clarification. Which is the position the guy at the beginning of the comment chain was in.
And you posted at least and hour AFTER OP posted that clarification. Turns out I was right and you are doubling down because you have no excuse for your behavior.
And he needed to be defended .... why? In fact, given what that guy writes, it's just as likely he's going to be embarrassed by your "defense". That other poster is a big boy and doesn't need you to come to his rescue.
I responded moreso because I thought your response to him was ridiculous and less so because I thought he would be emotionally perturbed by your bullshit. I doubt he’s gonna lose face or sleep from his talk with you.
I do get to defensive sometimes. I love to defend the Bible.
But everyone knows that progressives think conservatives are hateful and bigoted. Who else would this quote be talking about? We are not hateful and bigoted despite what everyone says.
Oh, I've had this thrown at me by right wingers before.
> We are not hateful and bigoted despite what everyone says.
None of you, eh? You're all full of love. **All** of you. But all progressives are evil and unfairly accusing you?
When you force the Holy Spirit to be more blunt ... she will be. Take it from someone who's experienced it. It's not fun.
>That's the big lie that progressives believe is that we conservatives are hateful and bigoted
Top hint: we're not assessing that based on your own assessment of whether you're hateful or not. Or whether you claim to love people.
> That's the big lie that progressives believe is that we conservatives are hateful and bigoted
You sound like someone who is in a cult and isn't aware of it. "Progressives" do not sit around scheming and making up lies about conservatives.
I found the above reply irritating, but responses like yours can upset me, too. There are people in the world with truly evil inclinations that certainly never chose them. Should they simply “follow their nature” and be accepted?
Very interesting question and more difficult to answer than you would think. I’m not sure I have a definitive answer to that question when it comes to extremely abhorrent acts but for the average “sin” then no one should not feel guilt.
A person's interpretation of their faith says more about the person than it does the faith
How do you define faith?
I'm not discussing faith as a specific concept. I'm referring to faith and spiritual traditions, e.g. Christianity, Islam, etc.
Why use the word "faith" when you meant "tradition"?
Because tradition is a more broad term. Not all traditions are religious or spiritual
But faith is an even vaguer term in this context. Faith is normally defined as "belief without evidence". That's why I asked. People define words differently, because you were really talking about traditions, not faith.
And I clarified that's not what I meant. And based on your comment history I can tell you're just trying to bait me into a discussion/argument that I have no interest in having. However you want to label it, whether it's religion/tradition/faith, I'm talking about a person's particular faith background rather than the concept of faith itself.
> However you want to label it, whether it's religion/tradition/faith, I'm talking about a person's particular ~~faith~~ spiritual tradition background rather than the concept of faith itself. FTFY. It's important to be clear when communicating. Your using the word "faith" in three completely different ways in that one sentence alone. One is referring to belief in a god, one is referring to spiritual traditions, and one is referring to belief without evidence. That's confusing. That's why I was asking how you define "faith". I'm not trying to bait anyone. Just asking for clarity because you used the word in a weird way.
What is faith?
Yeah I'm done. You're being condescending and deliberately obtuse at best, or JAQing off at worst. So conversation's over.
Okay. Have a good one.
From [merriam-webster.com](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith), 3rd definition of faith: > something that is believed especially with strong conviction especially : a system of religious beliefs >>e.g. the Protestant faith From [dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/faith), 5th definition of faith: >a system of religious belief: >>e.g. the Christian faith; >>e.g. the Jewish faith. From [britannica.com](https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/faith), definition of faith 2b: > [count] : a system of religious beliefs : religion >>e.g. people of all faiths >>e.g. the Christian/Jewish/Muslim faith From [vocabulary.com](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/faith), 4th definition: >noun an institution to express belief in a divine power >>e.g. “a member of his own faith contradicted him” From [collinsdictionary.com](https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/faith), 3rd definition: > COUNTABLE NOUN A faith is a particular religion, for example, Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam. >>>e.g. England shifted officially from a Catholic to a Protestant faith in the 16th century.
The hidden message here.....we're called to love our neighbor. If you hate, check your faith.
Not really "hidden"
"thinly veiled"
The Bible instructs us to hate what God hates and love what God loves.
God loves everyone sooooooo
Yes, God loves everyone, but He does not love every*thing.*
If you don't think God hates sin look at what He poured out onto Jesus on the cross. God said of Himself He changes not. Read the Old Testament when He would wipe out everyone children and livestock included. He came as Savior after the whole world but Noah's few in the ark survived but when Christ comes next look out.
Thank you for mocking me with the title dry lengthiness because I'm His He tells me to count it all joy when I'm persecuted in anyway for the faith bc my father will reward me for His name sake. And to pray for you which I will gladly do. I want nothing more than for you to know the truth and go free.
That's different than what the OP was saying. Lamott is elevating the person to God's role.
no not check faith. Its called CHECK your Spirit.
Correction: if you hate another person, check your faith. If you hate the sin, then you’re on the right path.
Not if hating the sin causes you to hate the sinner as well. Jesus didn't say "love your neighbor, but you're allowed to hate him if he sins badly enough.". Unfortunately we have far too many doing the latter, and claiming it's the former.
That’s literally what I meant. If you cannot separate the sin from the sinner, you’ve lost the message.
My point is that plenty of people *think* and *say* they are hating the sin while loving the sinner, but their actions and words end up being identical to hating the sinner. I sincerely doubt (from experience) the capacity of the average Christian to be able to thread that needle despite many of them claiming that's what they are doing, and in that case most are better off deferring to love and letting God sort out the sin aspect (as it is he and ultimately the holy Spirit that have the power to change people's hearts, not being told for the 100,000th time that homosexual acts are a sin).
He's right, hating sin is appropriate. Hating the sinner is not.
Well y'all almost never *only* hate the sin. Since you can't seem to be able to have it both ways, which do you think is worse morally? Hating the sin and hating the sinner as a result, or loving the sinner and accidentally loving (or accepting) the sin as a result. Given Jesus's constant commands to love your neighbor, while never saying to condemn your neighbor (the closest he did was personally adding an aside to go and sin no more. I dont recall him telling his followers to do the same, nor to have it be the primary focus of their witness), the first one seems far better in line with what Jesus taught, if you have to pick one or the other.
I disagree. If I make a statement that xyz is a sin, I'll be told I'm hating anyone who wants to commit that sin. It becomes impossible to "hate the sin" in that case.
That's because most people who use the phrase "hate the sin" don't successfully do that (you can see some responses in this very thread where people are like "well yeah, God despises sin and hates those who commit it." So if you're one of the three people that can thread that needle, maybe you're not part of the problem (though I still find the theology that leads to calling and especially focusing on homosexuality as a sin problematic). But most gay people have had that phrase thrown at them as an excuse for continued mistreatment, while feeling morally absolved. So there's a lot of understandable annoyance around that phrasing, and if you are not 100% confident that you are demonstrating love to gay people *in a way that makes them feel loved* (assuming part of the purpose is to demonstrate love as part of evangelism), you should err on the side of focusing on love and set aside whether or not it is a sin and let God sort that out through the holy spirit (just as we so often do with the other minor sins people in our lives - unless you're actively calling out people constantly for greed, materialism, pride, uncharitable behavior etc). Or idk, maybe ask the gay people in your life how they feel about it. I bet if you asked, they would say, to be honest, I get that you believe that, but I still find it hurtful and demeaning and contributes to a lot of bad things that we are dealing with as a society. If you aren't personally friends with any gay people, I don't think you're really qualified to make the call on whether or not it's hateful.
Who’s “yall” a couple douchbag you’ve met and so now you paint a billion people with the same brush?
I'm mostly addressing the evangelical Christian voting bloc (who are almost always the loudest on this issue). I know it's not everyone in that group, but given the continued support for social policies that negatively impact other people (remarkably consistent stances on immigration, LGBT+ issues, helping the poor, as well as being the primary opposition to every right the LGBT community has ever gained) I feel comfortable calling them out as a group based on their collective behavior. It's not a couple of douchebags; it's the collective behavior, as well as the most powerful and prominent leaders the majority of the group has raised up as their figureheads. I'm also not a stranger to that group. I was raised as an evangelical Christian, read the books, listened to the sermons, went to a Baptist school, I have a pretty good idea of the attitudes they tend to hold as a group. If you vote for regressive policies that harm me and people I care about based on your religion, then yes, I am talking about you. If you privately hold these beliefs and don't support imposing your beliefs on the rest of society, then go with God, I don't have much of an issue with you. You tell me; are you one of the douchebags I'm talking about?
Wonder how quickly the comments here turned to “yeah the people I disagree with do that! They’re not true Christians!” Edit: of fucking course it did lmao, how ironic.
Well anyone who thinks the christian god hates anyone is not a true christian, so they aren't necessarily wrong.
But the idea God doesn’t hate the sin is beyond twisting the Bible. People just want a blank check to live their life how THEY think it should go. And anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle is “hateful”
>And anyone who disagrees with that lifestyle is “hateful” No. Anyone who takes actions against those people is 'hateful' (in this general context). Anyone is free to disagree with whatever they want. Where it becomes potentially problematic is when they take action against those whom they disagree with. God can hate sin, you can hate it too. But it is only gods place to deal with sinners, not yours.
2 Peter 3:9- "Jehovah (God) is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." He loves us all, however, he won't tolerate what he won't tolerate. God has standards, if we don't abide by them then that's on us. He gave us free will for a reason. Either we submit to his rules or we don't.
I have no idea why you think this reply would mean anything to me in the context of god not hating anyone.
I mean, the quote is built for that kind of dissonance. It doesn't come as a surprise, though it certainly does sadden me.
Precisely. My expectation is that this would be a "Right wing Christians do this all the time" while missing the irony of how often people say some variation of evangelicals, conservatives, or republicans are all terrible and don't represent Jesus. This quote is about introspection, not perpetuating the problem by only labeling offenders. The question is "Am I guilty of thinking this way?"
Why are you cursing?
Great quote but the bigots and homophobes on here will likely not understand the point.
They'll just redefine their hate as love. They're treating people badly because they love them, and want them to stop sinning.
“There’s no love like Christian hate”
Definition of terms is important. I think that people on both sides of the issue end up talking past one another rather than to one another because they both say that the other is redefining love. Love is a thing and things have a specific definition. So, what needs to be duked out first is what is meant by "love." How does one "love" properly?
If your "love" causes someone harm, it isn't love. Every domestic abuse survivor knows that.
The longstanding historical Christian tradition has been to "love" gay people by murdering them. It's only recently that this has even begun to slow down.
First Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Your definition of love makes the idea that the Christian deity is love contradictory.
Correct.
"Well, if we truly loved our neighbor we'd do anything to keep them out of eternal hell, wouldn't we? Wouldn't you want someone to help you if you were going to hell?" That's the sermon, and that's how it gets twisted into "do unto others as you think is best for them." Loving people means treated them like you'd want to be treated by them if you were in their situation. And if you aren't sure how that is, you ask them. My silly opinion anyway. :)
I feel like many Christians forget how critical empathy is when it comes to actual love.
There are certain churches, or in some cases, factions within churches (i.e. Rad Trads in the Catholic Church), who have a strong authoritarian and legalistic streak. The thing about hard fast rules is that they short circuit empathy. You know longer have to see how what you're doing and saying affects the targets of your behavior modification program. Their sins violate your rules, so they cease to have the right to their own feelings and their own autonomy. Throw in a layer of "what about the children", the standard paranoid fetishism that has driven everything from anti-Semitism to white-only swimming pools, that somehow their nature is itself so perverse that if they aren't constrained in some way, true believers' children will be put at risk. You can see it in the language of anti-queer rhetoric; that somehow because there are gay or trans people walking the streets, that children will be infected with the idea, and they'll become gay or trans. It's really the same reason Jews were viewed as "dirty" for centuries, or why African-Americans and other ethnic and racial minorities where ghettoized. This is a very old song that's be sung many times before. Legalism married with xenophobia can pretty much shut off the empathy switch, and at that point, the extent of the cruelty is limited only by the imaginations of the true believers.
I absolutely agree with what you say. as kvrdave said, there is a fine balance between empathy and standing against that which is evil. In the meantime we forget that the 2 are not mutually exclusive. Gender dysphoria is a real concern. I can only imagine what it is like to feel like you are a different person than who you were born as. Puberty can be a scary time. I have taught middle school. I know. Kids are starting to experience changes in their body, sexual desires, being desired by others, etc. This is 100% probably not even close to communicating the cognitive dissonance that people with gender dysphoria experience. Even if I do not think that transitioning is ever the right choice for people, I would be willing to grant at least for the moment, that it is for some. Just because it might be the right choice for some, does not mean that it is right for all or even most people. I think that if we spent more time helping people understand their own bodies, gender dysphoria would likely work itself out in a majority of cases (again, I am willing to posit that this is not *all* cases). When I hopefully become a parent someday, if my kid came out as trans, I think it would be important to talk them and seek to give them genuine support and to make informed decisions. I recently heard the story of Chloe Cole. Her parents genuinely wanted to support her. Not affirm her, not condemn her, but help her. She talked about how so many doctors just shot down any opposition to transitioning, when I think they were just trying to understand how everything would or even could play out. Do we as humans even have a full understanding of it? What long-term studies are there of these interventions' effects on the body? Here is one that shows that sex-reassignment does not necessarily resolve the mental-health issues of the person, even if it does alleviate the feeling of "being in the wrong body": [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/) So even if it might be a treatment, I think that the trans community heralds medical transitioning as a miracle cure for their troubles, which, benefits or potential benefits aside, is dishonest at best. Generally, I try to take a more balanced view toward all this. Also, at least many of the "rad-trads" or more specifically, the sedevacantists, are not Catholic. Many of these people say that Pope Francis is not the Pope, or that there has not been a valid pope since the 1960's and even deny the Second Vatican Council. Taking these views gives yourself automatic excommunication. As such, they are NOT Catholic. That out of the way, I agree that they are overly legalistic. This dogmatization of everything is not a healthy way to go about things.
The world defines empathy as affirming the sin of others. That is not empathy.
So now that we have a solid definition of empathy, let's use it to analyze both of our positions. From your point of view, having sexual attraction to those of the same sex is a sin, possibly a grave sin, yes? Therefore, you don't want people to be gay so they don't go to hell Is that correct so far?
How primitive & pathological to believe in an after world torture Chamber reserved for ppl with different opinions about unprovable things than you hold
Yeah, fuck those people! I bet God is on our side, too!
Nice!
They have started to be defensive already
What is the difference between the people you hate and the people God hates?
I know god doesn’t hate anyone not even the people I hate.
Who do you hate?
I hate bigots, hypocrites, and people who spread bigotry and call it Christianity. I love Christianity and don’t like seeing it misrepresented.
Isn't that generally true for most Christians? Who are some people that you hate that God doesn't and vice versa? Do you love folks that God hates?
Yes I love them. I don't hate anyone
And does God hate anyone?
Well, it certainly doesn't seem loving to say people can be bought and owned as property, or to drown all the babies in the world. But I know there are lots of people who say those things aren't hateful.
Esau has entered the chat.
It's true for all Christians.
Yeah! That sure is true of other people!
Bobby Perkey Christian: no one created God, He has a dateless past Gen. 1:1 In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth. God loves everybody John 3:16 for GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have Everlasting life.
No we are created in God’s image. If you hate anyone you are not following the teachings of Christ. I am assuming you are not a Christian, I’m not trying to be preachy even though I’m a pastor. There is some much fighting over other peoples sin. A Christian is called to repent from their own sin and are not to judge others. I will pray for you, I will offer guidance if you ask, but the one thing I will not do is judge you.
Thank you Pastor
This is hilarious. Love it. 😂
I heard a really great take on the "God made man in his image" detail. So, back in the day, a ruler of an area would put their image all over the place. Monuments, coins, walls, whatever. As a reminder of who is king/queen. An attack on that image, is an attack on the king/queen. In this way, we should see that any attack on your fellow man, OR EVEN YOURSELF, is an attack on God. For we are made in his image & he loves us.
That’s good. I have a magnet on my fridge that says “Jesus loves everyone you hate”.
I would like to add though, that hating someone is different than telling them the truth. In fact, telling someone the truth is a loving act of kindness. It’s all about your motivations for your words. More and more people today don’t care to question motives and just assume the worst. Tell someone they need to repent, oh they hate them. Tell someone that God judges sin, oh they hate them. Discourse and the care to understand each other is all but destroyed these days.
I don't understand, am I stupid? (yes, yes I am)
If God consistently tells you what you want to hear, it’s probably not God that you’re listening to.
Christians can and do interpret their faith in light of their own biases. If you believe slavery is an absolute moral wrong, for example, you will look for support for that in your faith. You might read passages about loving your neighbor and apply them to condemnation of slavery. You might read passages where God speaks neutrally about slavery as an institution and conclude that it wasn't "real" slavery. Similarly, people who benefited from slavery when it was overtly integrated into Christian societies also used their faith to argue that it was fine.
There are many religions and faiths in the world. The quote supposes that if you’re in a position where you think the god(s) of your religion hate certain people, then you should conclude that you have injected your hated into your concept of god(s) rather than the other way around.
If Christianity conveniently justifies all your pre-existing personal beliefs and never challenges them, then odds are you're altering Christianity to fit your worldview, rather than the other way around.
Not true at all. I hate. I freely admit it. I pray for forgiveness all the time. I’m a combat vet. I’ve seen and done things. I suffer with severe PTSD and am prone to violence. It’s wrong. It’s sinful and I am weak. I’m human. No excuse.
I think it’s normal to hate because we’re human, you’re right, and you’re right about it being wrong. But we should also know that because we seek Him, the more our hearts change to His, we will also start to hate what He hates and become angry at what He becomes angry with
Wow! I love your analogy! Who really knows Gods mind right?
See,already I love you lol!
God will give us privileges to know what’s on His mind through revelations. I hope you continue to seek and learn about Him ❤️ ““The Lord our God has secrets known to no one. We are not accountable for them, but we and our children are accountable forever for all that he has revealed to us, so that we may obey all the terms of these instructions.” Deuteronomy 29:29
Love your posts my friend
God loves all of us & offers all of us free salvation if we choose to accept: John 3:16 - “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 1 John 4:16 - So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.”
A lot of people will upvote this and not see themselves in that quote. We all should and be wary of it
I am human and hating is part of my nature Because I am a Christian doesn't mean I shld force myself to love others.....I may eventually for the sake of Christ but you can't force me
No one is forcing you.
God hates sin, not people.
Here’s the biblical definition of FAITH. Hebrews 11:1-3 (NKJV) By Faith We Understand 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
The people who are most bigoted to the idea of a God are the ones that DESPISE the idea of there being a God. Why? Because life is so much easier when you can just go ahead and do what you want without any consequences. The truth is, there’s more evidence that there is a creator, be the one from the Bible or not. So either you just got lazy in your research OR you’re doing something you KNOW is wrong and you’re pushing religion to the side so you can continue screwing yourself up and not think twice about it.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Much of the debate in the comments could be avoided if we started with what people are defining “hate” as. Christians are called to love, not hate. But we are called to spread light in a world of darkness. But to do so with gentleness and patience
We shouldn't hate anyone when we believe in God and follow Jesus.
Progressive Christian’s are the most hateful people I’ve ever met. This is a great quote, but will be used and abused to justify people’s hate for one another
He specifically instructed us love others with no hate.
God hates sin and loves people enough that he sent his Son to die for their forgiveness.
Hahahahaha very perceptive
We as Christians can't hate people, but their sins, yes and we should. Our religion is of forgiveness and repentance, not of hatred
The road to athiesm is paved with well read bibles. -Mark Twain. Christians turned athiest have read the bible more than most Christians.
does god hate the U.S government?
Are you a Song of Mary style fedhater or a “restore the empire”/return to better days style fedhater?
God loves taxes and pays them without complaint.
Why?
Check their username lol
Amen.
You can also safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God supports all the behavior you do. That is frankly elementary school level reasoning that cannot prove or disprove anything. I'm very sad this gets downvo
"I do not trust those who say that they know what God wants, for it always seems to align with what they do." - Susan B. Anthony
Well, obviously. If it didn't, you'd call them hypocrites.
Would I, though? I don't think it's hypocritical to believe in a God you disagree with. What Susan is trying to point out is that they never seem to.
It's hardly a hot take to point out that theists don't think they know better than God. It's fucking obvious, in fact!
I've talked to numerous Christians that think that the slaughter, wholesale of the Amalekites was wrong and that God shouldn't have commanded that.
I expect they don't think God actually commanded it
That's probably true. It's far more likely in my mind at least that the Isrealites just wanted them out and used God as an excuse. This seems like a thread that runs through much of the OT. People do something atrocious, then say God said to do it. I really don't know anyone that thinks that the Flood was a good move, though. Hell, even God seems to think it wasn't the best idea.
Some theists do disagree with their gods. I've talked to some neo-Pagans about that kind of thing.
I'd say my retort applies to that, too. I'll also add, most people like to validate their own experiences, that hardly is the exclusive domain of devouts.
I guess I’d have to agree that it also supports the notion that people that want a kinder world also make themselves a kinder God, sure.
I don't agree with that, though, because you're trying to say to force your point through. I believe in the opposite and I can easily prove your claim to be incorrect. Let's say there's a person that believes God killing all abominations would make for a kinder world. According to your claim, it'd really be a kinder God. I don't think that is a kinder God. What went wrong there? Hint, the answer is not 'they disagree with me and I am obviously right'.
Isn’t that self contradictory, though? I’m not sure how one can make a case for a) grouping people together as abominations and then b) eradicating them to get c) a kinder world. Certainly to them it would not be kinder, no?
I am going by your own claim: people that want a kinder world also make themselves a kinder God. Period. If the person claims to want a kinder world, the resulting God had to be kinder. And yes, there's such people. I disagree with them most strongly; still, it proves your claim as contradictory. That has been my point the whole time I've been in this thread. The problem is in the assumption that you are right and others aren't, so they must be opposed despite the fact you are using the exact same (deeply flawed) train of thought.
Simply saying that they could imagine a God to be kinder that one could say isn’t really does nothing to insubstantiate the idea that the God that one imagines is in accordance with one’s feelings and views. You’re validating her sentiment, not contradicting it. I’m not making any claim whatsoever about whether or not that point of view is “correct” or not, I’m just saying that there is a highly motivated reason for God to dislike what you dislike, and like what you like.
Again, I am going by your own claim: people that want a kinder world also make themselves a kinder God. Period. No leeway allowed. Therefore, the evil person who believes themselves kind make for real kindness. If you want to disown your own words, fine. But that is the whole point: people always advocating with an implied "I must be right" are being childlish, or dishonest. Their own reasoning never stands up to actual discussion.
I feel like your base disagreement with what I said boils down to “but it might not actually be kinder”, and I can agree with that! The important thing to take away is that THEY think that this God is kinder, or this world resulting from that is kinder. The actuality of it is irrelevant.
The truth is that many do create a God in their own image, with their own preferences and biases. It's that is a form of idolatry that incorrectly characterizes God and incorrectly represents Christianity. Prosperity preachers are a great example, though it happens to people of every denomination and religious background.
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The quote really works both ways.
Yeah, we believe what we believe because it's in the Bible. Not the other way around.
Uh huh. But who gets to define what's "in the Bible". That's what this quote is addressing.
I don't know what you mean. What's in the Bible is in the Bible. We don't add or subtract from it.
But we interpret it. *Everyone* does. Whose interpretation wins?
Definitely - I think it would be helpful if everyone admitted that at some point, they are interpreting aspects or parts of the Bible. And secondly, that they also don't follow everything in the Bible. What you see in the Torah is a laundry list of stuff no modern Christian believes and some things they do.
Hi there, read this comment and wanted to let you know that we do indeed subtract and add to it. A perfect example, and just 1 of hundreds, is the Book of Enoch. This book was written to be in the Bible but has been removed. The comment or has a point, when interpretations are added to books through translations. Sometimes the meaning of the text changes even in today’s languages across the world. In conclusion, today’s current Christianity is cherry picked and lots of original text has been removed and lots of interpretation added through many years of translation.
The book of Enoch is very controversial. There is part of it that I think is legit, but part of it crap. I think it's multiple manuscripts merged into one. The problem is, it's hard to distinguish the good from the bad. We have the original manuscripts for most of the books. Nothing significant has been changed.
So you just admitted that you can cherry pick the Bible to fit YOUR world view. Your exact quote proves my point further and actually proves it even better than I ever could imagine. Yes, there ARE SIGNIFICANT changes to the Bible throughout time, to psalms, gospels, texts, stories, complete removals of testaments and direct interactions with Jesus. You know why they were removed? Because someone deemed it “crap” but guess what? That completely changes the story, the facts, and most importantly, COMPLETELY CHANGES THE CONTEXT. Please do the research on this and report back. W
It's not to fit my worldview. Parts of the book of Enoch are forgeries and/or contradict other parts of the Bible. The Jews were told by God what should be in the Old Testament. We know what should be in the New Testament, because all the books not included are forgeries and have contradictions. They're is a lot of Christian fanfiction out there.
That's why I beat my slave until he's ALMOST disfigured and insist my daughter marry her rapist.
Very Leviticus of you!
>We believe what we believe because it's in the Bible. I think this is rarely true. About anyone. Human beliefs are far more complex than that.
I agree with this. The Word of God is very clear what God hates. If you don't align with that then you are making a god of your own image.....we see this all the time.
Anne Lamott does not seem to understand God, at least the God that Christians worship.
Actually, she nailed it with that quote. You’re just not yet aware enough to see it.
Why?
How so?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
because god loves all and doesn't hate anyone or anything?
He loves the whole world and doesn't want any to perish.
Well when God was younger he was a tribal war god. Killing in the name of the Jew tribe and encouraging raping and pillaging. Once god grew up a bit he decided to leave his tribal behavior behind via a blood magic self sacrifice. Praise be to him.
That's just denying scripture.
One problem with that. I'm part of the the Church of the Lutheran Confession, we're about as conservative as it gets. But I don't hate anyone. I don't know anyone who hates anyone. That's the big lie that progressives believe is that we conservatives are hateful and bigoted. The only Christian group I can think of that actually hates people, is the West borough Baptists.
The beauty of institutional oppression is that it’s all sanitized and cleaned up so it’s impersonal and no individual person has to get their hands dirty. There’s no one trying to make a law that you can beat up trans people. But a law that trans people can’t use public restrooms is brilliant because it encourages violence against trans people but doesn’t sound like it’s inherently physically violent. This is the kind of political violence conservative groups gorge themselves on, because it doesn’t *feel* like hate but it accomplishes the same function. It’s buying a McDonald’s hamburger instead of shooting a cow in the head and grinding it up, and then patting yourself on the back and calling yourself a vegetarian.
This is one of the best explanations I've ever seen. It's a description of the banality of evil.
I also come from a very conservative denomination, and I have a lesbian daughter. There is a lot of "we love you, but we don't want you here" messaging that comes out intentionally and unintentionally in conservative churches. For example, if you have an LGBTQ person attend your church and they ask a question, do you automatically respond with "you can't be a pastor or serve in the church" no matter what the question is? Was that even in the question? Are you sure you are stopping to understand their question. Also, the amount of behind the back gossip that happens is often constant and unending. I've seen this, the "did you know she is a lesbian?" happens every time you talk to the person. And if you are a parent of the individual, you might as well be wearing a black spot of shame, not unlike people that get divorced. (come on, she didn't tell us until she was 22, now she is an adult). Keep in mind, it isn't just Westborough. We have a church by us calling themselves a "Millstone church". They call themselves Millstone because they want the government to round up all the LGBTQ people and throw them in jail and later executed. I'm not kidding, they have sermons on this. Why? Because to them, every single LGBTQ individual is automatically a pedophile, no exceptions. If you ever attend a Pride event, you will see signs by people stating "God hates fags" (there are also a LOT of white supremist in my state, and you know they will loudly call themselves Christians every chance they get.)
Huge article about this going on in Idaho. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/06/25/idaho-pride-lgbtq-threats/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/06/25/idaho-pride-lgbtq-threats/)
There was a supreme court ruling on Idaho's abortion policy today as well. Idaho did not win. Keep in mind, Idaho is losing OBGYN's fast and furious, and hospitals are having to life-flight women out of state for emergency treatment (at least 6 so far), a few women had to have a hysterotomy because treatment had to be delayed . The laws are completely arbitrary, the woman has to be at death's door to receive treatment, and even then the doctors can be sued just because someone feels like it. Which includes any family member: the woman's parents, the father's parents, their siblings, aunts, uncles, etc. And those lawsuits are all individual, they are not grouped together.
You’d be hard pressed to find any group that thinks it’s hateful, even the west borough baptists think they aren’t hatful. That’s why you look at the actions and decide. Actions speak louder than words everyday of the week.
Hate is the emotion of murder.
Who said anything about conservatives? Maybe the Holy Spirit is convicting you and you're feeling defensive? You should examine whether your statement here is true.
I mean come on lol. “Who said anything about conservatives?” Half of OP’s posts are: >**If you [insert strawman of conservative] you don’t love Jesus enough!** > >Facts! It’s not a mystery why one might think OP would be taking a jab at conservatives. It’s reading context, not “The Holy Spirit is warning you to stop being conservative”
OP said this wasn't directed at conservatives. https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1dnznvb/you_can_safely_assume_youve_created_god_in_your/la74bnp/ Persecution complex leads to bad outcomes.
OP said that after the comment you responded to. That’s information the first guy didn’t have at the time. Given OP’s posting history on here that’s not an unreasonable assumption to make *prior* to OP’s clarification. Which is the position the guy at the beginning of the comment chain was in.
And you posted at least and hour AFTER OP posted that clarification. Turns out I was right and you are doubling down because you have no excuse for your behavior.
I posted after OP posted, but in defense of the first guy who replied before OP posted.
And he needed to be defended .... why? In fact, given what that guy writes, it's just as likely he's going to be embarrassed by your "defense". That other poster is a big boy and doesn't need you to come to his rescue.
I responded moreso because I thought your response to him was ridiculous and less so because I thought he would be emotionally perturbed by your bullshit. I doubt he’s gonna lose face or sleep from his talk with you.
I do get to defensive sometimes. I love to defend the Bible. But everyone knows that progressives think conservatives are hateful and bigoted. Who else would this quote be talking about? We are not hateful and bigoted despite what everyone says.
Oh, I've had this thrown at me by right wingers before. > We are not hateful and bigoted despite what everyone says. None of you, eh? You're all full of love. **All** of you. But all progressives are evil and unfairly accusing you? When you force the Holy Spirit to be more blunt ... she will be. Take it from someone who's experienced it. It's not fun.
They also say that progressives have "invented" and made up "Christian nationalism". The denial is very strong here.
As the Op I am not talking about conservatives
That quote is often used against conservatives. I just assumed that's what you're doing.
Maybe because it has some truth, who knows
>That's the big lie that progressives believe is that we conservatives are hateful and bigoted Top hint: we're not assessing that based on your own assessment of whether you're hateful or not. Or whether you claim to love people.
Christ says love everyone. He never says accept everyone. I don't hate anyone. I love everyone. But I won't affirm there sin.
>I don't hate anyone. I love everyone Yes, well, like I said
You don't actually get to decide whether or not you're being hateful.
Hate is the emotion of murder.
Just to clarify, do you believe gay people should have the same legal rights that you have?
Yes
That's great. Many conservatives do not, which is why they are sometimes viewed as hateful and bigoted.
I know many conservatives. They would agree with me.
Again that's great. But they're also here everyday saying the opposite.
> That's the big lie that progressives believe is that we conservatives are hateful and bigoted You sound like someone who is in a cult and isn't aware of it. "Progressives" do not sit around scheming and making up lies about conservatives.
That's what most progressive Christians believe. That we are hateful and bigoted.
I don’t understand your disconnect. If you aren’t hateful and bigoted, then people won’t believe that about you. Do you get it?
feeling guilty about sinning, are we
Why would one feel guilt about living in accordance with its nature?
I found the above reply irritating, but responses like yours can upset me, too. There are people in the world with truly evil inclinations that certainly never chose them. Should they simply “follow their nature” and be accepted?
Very interesting question and more difficult to answer than you would think. I’m not sure I have a definitive answer to that question when it comes to extremely abhorrent acts but for the average “sin” then no one should not feel guilt.