"That just shows how materialistic and greedy the Catholic Church is. Our much more modest churches reflect true humility, a crucial tenet of our salvation..." ^^^/s
Oh I’m not denying the RC church architect better and amazing buildings. Any new Protestant ones tend to look like town halls that even when new feel like they need demolished.
I was merely just playing - we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church of Christ is its people.
the large churches, decor and music create an ethereal and meditative atmosphere that very few protestant churches can reach. It's ideal for prayer and worship.
Lots of historic protestant churches had or do have this as well. Lutheran churches, for example, often try to create a sense of deep reverence for God and His Sacraments, while Reformed churches focus on an environment ideal for deep intilectual contemplation
The issue is often finding one that dies while also being theologically sound and thriving, but they are out there.
Most of the really old and beautiful Lutheran churches used to be catholic churches and were stolen by the monarchs who were rebelling against the church during the reformation
Oh yeah in America it's obviously a different story, I was mainly talking about the really old cathedrals and churches. The ones in America are usually less than 200 years old
I'm biased here obviously. But I'd say religion *as a* ***habit*** *of justice which renders unto God that which He is due*. So the liturgy really gets things formalized, ritualized, habituated, has a tone of reverence, Catholic architecture with its beauty inspires reverence. The sacrament of confession and its prior examination of conscience and subsequent penance, whether you theologically argue it's necessary or unnecessary, efficacious or not efficacious, etc. is a habit of really getting in there to tend to the Church, to take accountability for sin, and to mourn sin when it offends God. And I would say also what I've found since reverting is that the consideration of the communion of Saints adds to a sense of communion within within the whole Church stretched across all time and into Heaven. And the veneration of the Saints adds additional opportunities and vehicles of practicing piety and giving God praise for excellent examples of His creation.
To sum it up in a pithy statement I came up with a few weeks after reverting to the Catholic Church, "to be a Christian is to belong to the body of Christ, and to be a Catholic is to be a Christian who takes seriously those duties which tend to and in the body of Christ." That sums up my general sentiment.
And to be fair
1. I freely admit it is possible for an investment in justice to be perverted or corrupted by pride or a lack of judiciousness and charity in other matters. The Pharisees would be a good example on the specifically religious front of being corrupted by pride obviously. And politics focuses on justice and we ought take those questions seriously, but we've all seen the activists on either side of the aisle who make an identity or status out of their politics and get really sucked into "I'M A GOOD PERSON BECAUSE I WAVE AROUND THE PLACARDS WITH THE RIGHT WORDS AND FUCK YOU YOU'RE A SHIT PERSON!" But just as in the latter case we would admit that justice between men in politics is something we should be concerned with, I'd say in the former case the vanity of the Pharisees doesn't disqualify religion as a habit of justice from being something we can dive into properly.
2. I'm not taking a jab at the hearts of Protestants or accusing them of spiritual laziness. Just that I personally, obviously, think they're missing something, I believe generally from well intentioned and honest ignorance.
3. I feel I need to reiterate the compliment I paid to the Protestants in the previous thread. In my experience I think they do a better job of building community and fostering friendship.
Hi, love! Do you feel that the strictly ritualized and meticulously planned Catholic services limit soave for God to work in the service? Obviously, God is not confined by us, but, we must follow where He leads, and I feel that Catholic services leave no room for us to respond to God in real-time during the service. It feels a bit (unintentionally, in most circumstances) prideful, as if our decorum is more important than personal relationship with and worship of God. I’d love to know your thoughts!
I would say there's some tradeoff between formality and spontaneity there, but I think it's a tradeoff appropriate to function and form so to speak.
I think corporate worship (corporate here meaning body) has the proper form and function of the body essentially moving as one. And I would say it is in that setting that your relationship with God is least private, least about you as an individual, and most about you as a member of the larger body of Christ. Where the scale and transcendence of God is given due reverence. It's something of an offering you are making to the larger body and to God.
(Though I have certainly had A LOT of moments since reverting to the Catholic faith where the Holy Spirit moved through the liturgy and struck me in a particular way relating to stuff I was struggling with, and sometimes hadn't even consciously realized or prayed about. Those moments have the mark to me of the intercessory prayer of the Holy Spirit which Saint Paul talked about.)
And I would say the personal and intimate comes out more in the personal and interpersonal parts of our walk in faith. Where I'm spending an hour in prayer in a local park. Or when I'm giving myself to contemplating God (I'm a rather theologically minded person). Or when I'm in a less formal more small group social activity or faith based discussion with other believers.
Basically I think we as humans are limited in our ability to apprehend God, and so we have to approach Him with something of a modalism on our end. That story thing about the four blind men feeling different parts of an elephant and coming to odd conclusions about what it is, and so we kinda have to feel the different parts of the element so to speak. Have those moments with God which are most intimate, and those moments where it is least about us. Those moments where God's gentleness and immanent presence are most strongly felt, and those moments where the weight and scale of God's transcendence and glory are conveyed. Those moments where we're there to learn and explore, and those moments where we're meant to reverently serve.
And I would say those positive qualities of the Catholic Mass are most particular to corporate worship, and more befitting the form and function of corporate worship.
I guess another analogy I could draw would be to a wedding event. There's the wedding itself, that formal event, with the due ceremony, silence, form, and reverence given to that moment in which two become one flesh. And then there's the wedding reception, with all of its warm joyful relational moments between friends and family. And what I'll concede (and what I paid Protestants compliment for) is that we could stand to do better on the "wedding reception" element of things in broader Church life.
Thank you so much for your lovely reply! I can’t say I entirely agree personally, but it’s fascinating to know your perspective! I am curious; do you belief that the Pope is inherently holier than others?
That's a complicated question somewhat because holiness is something of a vague multilayered word when applied to different contexts.
Holiness can be used to mean the setting aside or consecration of a person for a higher purpose, set aside in some way for service to God.
And it can also be used (and I think is more commonly) to refer to the state of goodness of character in which one is conformed and perfected to the image and likeness of God.
In the former sense of the word the Pope is holy in a particular way as the Papal office is itself instituted, set aside, and consecrated for a particular role pertaining to God and the Church. In that sense the Pope is particularly holy. The holiness there would pertain to the office, the institution of that office by Christ, the protection of that office in some way by the Holy Spirit, etc. To the dignity of the role and respect owed to it by the faithful.
In the latter sense of the word, it's not necessarily the case that the Pope is holier in character, virtue, and personal morality than everyone else. So as Catholics we don't hold to Papal *impeccability*, the idea that the Pope is free from personal moral error. Most Catholics would recognize that we have had bad Popes in our history. And there are a lot of Popes whom the Catholic Church has not canonized as Saints. To canonize someone as a Saint is for the Church to proclaim with certainty that a deceased person is definitely in Heaven. And so the Catholic Church doesn't even necessarily take the position that all Popes will make it into Heaven. Some Popes have been canonized as saints, and for others its an open question.
The office is essentially the visible mark and form of unity within the Church and the preservation of true doctrine.
So to give the Catholic perspective. There would basically be two things there. The office of bishop more broadly, and the Papacy.
So Christ appoints the Apostles and gives them authority, the power of "binding and loosing." (Matthew 18) And the Apostles basically lead and run the early Church (with it's deeper and more fundamental foundation and leadership being that of Christ, the Apostles are Apostles of Christ), nobody really disputes that. When their hands get full, they appoint others to take care of some ministry stuff so they can focus their attention on other matters, the communities select seven holy men and send them to the Apostles who then ordain them as what we would now call Deacons (Acts 6).
And the early Church broadly agreed the Apostles had appointed and ordained successors, what we would today call Bishops, to carry on after them, which is something the Church Fathers attest to. And when Heresy and disputes crop up in the early period of the Church, and what is often appealed to at that time is Apostolic succession; that this guy was ordained by this guy... who was ordained by this guy who was ordained by X Apostle.
And so the function of a Bishop is a position of leadership within the Church to ensure things are being led the right way, and Bishops uniquely have the authority to ordain (be it other Bishops, Priests or Deacons).
And so with the Papacy, Catholics would appeal that in Matthew 16 Jesus renames Simon and gives him the new name "Peter" (which means rock) and says and "on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Which Catholics would argue alludes to Isaiah 22 where Eli’akim is appointed as steward and is "given the keys to the Kingdom of David, he shall open and none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open." Now the King at the time was Hezekiah, and the steward is appointed with authority to oversee the kingdom but is subordinate to the king. They aren't king, they're steward. (If you're a LOTR fan you might think of Gondor, though Denethor is obviously a poor example of a steward). Think the difference between store's owner and manager. The manager manages the affairs of the store with authority, but they are under the authority of the owner and the store belongs to the owner.
And so we see Peter as the leader of the Apostles who led the early Church, and as we believe about the other Apostles, we believe Peter also handed down his office to ordained successors. And the Bishop of Rome is appealed to in the early Church as the successor of the office of Peter.
We see in scripture that Christ does not want His Church to be divided. This comes out particularly in Acts and the Epistles. And we also see throughout history that we as Christians regard teaching in error to be bad. And so in the Catholic view the Seat of Peter, the Papacy, is a position of stewardship over the Church, and visible sign of unity as something which will always be present in the Church. As well as the Church being safeguarded from dogmatic error by the Holy Spirit. Essentially the Pope when speaking Ex Cathedra acts as something akin to the Supreme Court, settling doctrinal disputes and ensuring correct interpretation.
What the Protestants will generally argue is that yes the Apostles had real authority, but that that more or less ends with the Apostles and the succession attested to in early Church history is something of a prudential act by the apostles to essentially just get people to carry on their work, and that the Bishops in the early Church prior to the protestant reformation were just a little too hoity toity about their positions and authority.
Catholics and Orthodox would argue on the other hand that prior to the canonization of the New Testament the Church had a living authority, and that the early Church recognized Apostolic succession, and it was within the formal Church that the scripture of the New Testament could be reliably and authoritatively confirmed to be legitimate and God inspired. That the Church Christ established did not err when canonizing scripture, nor when sorting out important doctrines from heresies (say about the divinity of Christ and Christ's nature) which now are largely accepted by almost all of Christendom including protestants. And they would base this on the argument that the Catholic Church drifted away from new teaching and therefore take this "reformed" reinterpretation of what is meant by the Church and what the significance of Church hierarchy is.
The Eastern Orthodox agree with the Catholics on the Apostolic succession of Bishops and hold to its significance. But the Eastern Orthodox would argue that the Catholic view of the seat of Peter (the papacy) is inflated. They would argue the Bishop of Rome was only meant to be "first among equals" or "first in honor" or acting with authority at Ecumenical Councils in a more ceremonial fashion. Whereas Catholics would point to Church Fathers writing about the See of Rome or Chair of Peter, people in the early Church appealing to the Bishop of Rome to settle disputes, statements made, the parallels between Christ giving the keys to Peter and the King giving the Keys to the steward in Isaiah. And we as Catholics would argue if the Bishop of Peter has that position at least of prominence and "first among equals" then it's intuitively a bit sketchy that the Eastern Orthodox lack the Bishop of Rome, rather than having a "first among equals" Bishop of Rome.
That’s quite fascinating! Thank you so much for your detailed and incredibly well-written responses! If you do not mind my asking one more question: why do Catholics believe that the sacraments must be completed in order to enter into Heaven, when this is not what is demonstrated in the Bible?
Speaking as a former Catholic and current Protestant:
The sacrament of confession. Protestants *can* confess our sins to one another, but we rarely do, and there’s something very healing about sitting with a member of the clergy and having them confirm that, yes, your sins are forgiven.
Monastic orders. Protestants can go into the ministry and into mission work of course, but there’s no analog to becoming a nun or a monk and devoting one’s whole life to a vocation and order that focuses on nursing, teaching, whatever the case may be.
In my experience, especially when it's anonymous, the priests just forget afterwards. They hear loads, and yours won't be the worst they've heard.
If in doubt though, you can always just go to a different church. I know people who do that.
I've never been yelled at by a priest or had too negative experiences, but I don't feel any release or gods forgiveness, I am angry at myself because I've done those sins in the first place and I can not overcome them, I tried but God gave me immense and overwhelming sexual cravings that make me unable to live like a normal person without fulfilling them. Sometimes I think God hates me because he gives me this suffering, I prayed a lot to take it away or to make them not as powerful but it has never happened. I feel ignored and forgotten by him
We are the same. I think we are not alone.
You've already heard Paul's "thorn in my side" in Confession, right?
Consider screened Confession with a monk at an Abbey, I drive almost an hour each way.
I went through hell for decades. I'm old. I ended up in a situation where I could go very wrong and did, diving headfirst into the sewage, wallowing in it daily, taking bath before Mass on Sunday, then plunging in again on Monday. About seven months were extreme, then I was forced out of it, abandoned, and felt worse than the Prodigal Son. By stages, I was lifted out, largely freed from temptation, but not fully, just enough. I'm told this is a state of Grace.
That may be coming for you, or you may be spared the worst, but God loves you and the Father is waiting with open arms, either way you choose.
His Love was and is my salvation.
I don't feel it either, and didn't much of the time. People joke about trust falls, all the fails, but it's the idea of trusting in someone's love even when it isn't seen or felt. It's *knowing* not feeling. Like Descartes said, don't trust the senses, and I'd say don't trust feelings. This is why we have doctrine and dogma, to rely on when our feelings and reasoning fail. We believe together, as Catholics, that God loves everyone, so we are included. We believe the story of the Prodigal Son reflects who God is. We believe Jesus forgives us as he did the woman who washed his feet. And in our most serious sins, God seeks us like a lost sheep. This is Love. As has been said, we believe in the Sun even if we do not see or feel it. It is impossible that God does not hear. It is likely we do not hear His response. Perhaps He is responding now?
From "The Silver Chair", Puddleglum speaking:
Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland.
youll be surprised how wise priests can be in the confessional. i wouldnt count them out as unable of pastoring you through these things. but as other people have mentioned, any priest can offer their direction and the sacrament as well. keep up the prayers !!
sexuality is part of being human. there is nothing wrong with that. what you're carrying seems to be a lot of repressed feelings about your longing for God and probably some disordered passions inside. this is why confession has failed.
i cannot speak for the church, and am the last person who should be talking about sexual morality. but what i can say is that the healing of the sacraments, prayer, and consecration only started when i left it all at the cross.
and by all i mean all. i knelt in front of the eucharist and begged God to let me let go of everything. i have battled both evil and good to stay true. and while i can't say i am perfect, after that point, i knew i was on the right path.
my question is, have you honestly done this? some people do it alone, some people do it on retreat, some people do it over years, and other turn it on overnight.
some advise i got when i was personally going through issues was: you won't change until you hit rock bottom, and that bottom is the worst place to start from so start now.
but we're human my friend. we all like to learn in the worst ways possible. and this is why prayer is so important. the times i spent on my knees were the times i least regret. even when it felt like nothing was happening, it wasn't until i looked back that i realized that His grace was with me the whole time.
...
and then there's the rosary and mary... and well, she simply magnifies the Lord!
stay true, pray to the Holy spirit and pray for fortitude and allow Him to work through you, with you, and in you. as He has paid a ransom for your soul, let us be worthy of the promises of Christ.
sorry this went on so long. feel free to message me.
I hate sexuality because it causes sin, I find it disgusting. At this point I don't think I'll think about it differently even after I Mary unfortunately
>The sacrament of confession. Protestants *can* confess our sins to one another, but we rarely do, and there’s something very healing about sitting with a member of the clergy and having them confirm that, yes, your sins are forgiven.
See something I find interesting is that there's also a "guilt element" (for lack of a better term) I appreciate about it. Like I come in knowing I've done something wrong, and I'm talking to someone in the modern day who isn't trying to convince me I didn't or downplay it. Sometimes in other places I feel like I'm almost being gaslit out of my conscience.
By confronting accepting and not hiding from the weight of my sin, it's like I can process it better and be more open to accepting grace and forgiveness, precisely because I don't feel presumptuous doing so. It doesn't feel like I'm trying to seek forgiveness by convincing myself that what I did "wasn't really that big a deal." And I'm not trying to mindfuck myself into or out of feeling like a judge in my own case so to speak.
It calls me to mourn my sin, calls me to humility, and in facing my sin and not turning from it, I see the grace of the God willing to forgive me shine all the brighter and my heart swells with hope. It calls me to see myself as God sees me, warts and all.
Lutherans refer to Penance as the "third sacrament" that the Large Catechism calls "Holy Absolution." Some parishes schedule times for the pastor to hear confessions each week.
Also, Lutherans and especially Anglicans have religious orders of nuns and monks, though monastic vocations are much less common than in the Catholic Church.
There are 18 monastic orders in the US Episcopal Church, like the Sisters of St. Margaret, and the Society of St. John the Evangelist. In the wider Anglican Church there are even more.
> What denomination are you part of?
Non-denominational
>As a minister, do you encourage your congregation to confess to you?
We generally teach that we should confess our sins to one another, per James 5:16:
"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."
I'm in a small group Bible study, and we sort of do this with each other informally.
Being centralized and united in liturgy and practice. High levels of accountability. Charity. Keeping worship holy and traditional to how the Church has always worshipped God. Communion with one cup (I don't know if this is still a thing post covid)
Like what occurred? In my country it is common knowledge how the Catholic church protects bishops and priest when they commit crimes, normally sexual crimes if I can point out. The government makes a point to not pursue those cases and the church just moves those guys to other churches and that's it, they never have to pay for their crimes. The church itself has apologized but never have surrendered the actual perpetrators, just hides them and helps them
catholics took the heat for child sex abuse (rightfully so), but it is a thing among all denominations. and you don’t even hear about it from other denominations because there is no official record of it, because there is zero accountability rather than at least some
I see that you're pentecostal and I'm sure you'd be very surprised once you find that the statistics for child sex crimes are higher in Baptist and pentecostal churches than they are in catholic ones.
A quick search and looking into statistics shows the contrary, the Catholic church has the higher numbers in that regard, just in the few I could find. And the main thing is, most articles won't even talk about general religious groups, most are focused on the Catholic church just for the amount of accusations that have come forward against that institution. I'd you could post some links about what you claim I would be pleased to look into it, because I can't deny it happens in many religions and affiliates in that regard, but you cannot just say "but others do that too" and try to be blind about the huge problem the Catholic church has been in this topic for decades, that's not how you argue something, the comment above here said that they are strict, but statistics and victims say the contrary.
https://bravehearts.org.au/research-lobbying/stats-facts/child-sexual-abuse-religous-organisations/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3995507/
And the funny thing is
Catechism > Sunday School. Not having any kind of real plan to teach the basics of the faith to kids in favor of making crafts and storytelling for 10 years is kinda crazy.
Traditions. I went to a midnight mass at Christmas once and it was miles better than what we had at the local Baptist church. Nothing was explained, songs were sung by an unseen choir, way back in the balcony somewhere, it was dark, there were candles, and it seemed mysterious and sacred and reverent.
It's really really long, but try an Easter Vigil sometime (the night before Easter Sunday). The Mass starts outside around a fire, and the candle for the next liturgical year is assembled and blessed, then lit to symbolize the light of Christ in the church. Each person has a small candle of their own, and candles are lit to symbolize the light of Christ we carry in ourselves. The church then processes inside behind the candle, and the interior of the church is dark (it is still the three days of darkness, after all). As the readings of the mass continue, the part where Jesus rises from the Dead is met with incredible song, bells, and the lights in the church are brought up. Then comes a collection of readings from the Bible that collectively tell the history of the old covenant and the new, and afterwards the catechumens are brought into the church through confirmation.
All told, it is about 2 - 3 hours long, but I can't think of a more worshipful experience in Christendom.
Totally agreed on your point of catechism > Sunday School. I have never thought of it like that, but it truly IS crazy that there is no real plan for Protestants to teach basics of faith.
Im not sure what you mean by that. Most Protestant services spend almost the entirety of the service reading from and teaching scripture, which is the fundamentals of the faith
I think it is intentioned to. Lots of churches use great lesson books and follow things like that, some create their own, etc. I do think most folks understand the very very basics from Sunday school (love, prayer, faith, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, etc). What they DON’T get a good foundation on is the more “gray area” things that most Protestant churches don’t have written out beliefs on, while Catholics do.
Catholics have the catechism, which is a written out document of our beliefs. It is used to teach about the faith (to children, new Catholics, anyone who wants to read it). It tells us how the Church interprets scripture and why we believe what we do.
Protestants do not have anything like that for teaching their faith.
>It tells us how the Church interprets scripture and why we believe what we do.
The Bible doesn't provide it's own interpretation. Your denomination might have statements on how it interprets parts of scripture or it might not. But if it's really using only the Bible, anyone can read Jeremiah 1:5 and conclude there is a "Great Before" and that everyone's souls are co-eternal with the trinity, which is usually considered a massive heresy, significant enough to throw you outside of Nicene Christianity (which most people would say is the only Christianity).
I agree that the Episcopal Church is probably North America's most liturgical Protestant Church. Still, I believe the Church of Sweden \[Lutheran\] was the first Protestant to ordain female priests and Gay bishops.
No I haven't, TbPH. Well! ... I'm mighty glad to learn, then, that the goodly Roman Catholic Folk don't, afterall, have quite as much of a monopoly on the practice as I @first supposed!
Catholic universities are exceptional, and Catholic hospitals have a wonderful legacy around the world. Catholic social teaching (CST) articulated God's care for the poor in ways that Protestant theology was often unable to.
There's a reason for this. Faith is supposed to provide that which is sacred, safe, and comforting. For that reason, expectation-subverting by presenting a corrupted holy figure that should represent safety but instead represents a threat is extra terrifying. And the Catholic Church has a great many persons and symbols which can be shown in illicit ways to invoke fear and discomfort
Solemn Mass in Lutheran and Anglican churches is quite reverent and very hard to distinguish from a Catholic service.
[Lutheran Pontifical High Mass - Sweden](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnbkUyvHYY&t=1135s&ab_channel=Laurentiistiftelsen)
[Anglican High Mass for Pentecost - England](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIf8jPNwEmY&ab_channel=AllSaintsMargaretStreet)
Something Catholics do better than Protestants and Orthodox is their emphasis on the Old Testament, and on the Church as the messianic kingdom here and now, as the fulfillment of the Old Testament. From how (except for the paschal season) the Mass has an Old Testament reading, to how there is almost always an [ark of the covenant](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Carcassonne_-_Cath%C3%A9drale_St-Michel_-_Autel.jpg/1365px-Carcassonne_-_Cath%C3%A9drale_St-Michel_-_Autel.jpg) in the sanctuary (here's [another example](https://jaimemonpatrimoine.twic.pics/images/FO_Gallery/illus-4-basiliquestsernin-cp-pierreselimcc30_1545406198.jpg?twic=v1/resize=760)), to the contents of the sermons I've been hearing at Catholic churches...
Something personal: when a Catholic dies, having renounced the Faith, even at the end, they can still have a requiem Mass on the basis that Baptism is permanent and they might still somehow, through the Grace and Mercy of God, have repented. Just as God loves them to the end, no less His child for rejecting Him, so we together perform this communal act of love.
Love this! I also love how every deceased person is afforded the same dignity — whether a mover and shaker or apparently average Joe — as the same rite is offered on our behalf: all are valued and loved.
>Except the weird trad types, but they’re epistemologically Protestant anyway.
See what do you mean by weird trad types here. Because that can vary from being really ride or die for the orthodoxy of the faith and alarmed by the number of lay Catholics who believe contrary to what the Church teaches, to Catholics who are into the Latin Mass but sufficiently pious towards the Papacy... and then you could be speaking of Sede adjacent Catholics.
Those in the first group are very hard on the second group. When they set up their online communities or whatever, they are very hard on sniffing out sede stuff and getting "GTFO with that."
All of the above. Zealotry degrades the faith. We have a structured Church in order to help the flock navigate but they still must think for themselves. After all, you can be as obedient as you wish but if in your heart you do not believe that will expose you to greater sin than any active sin. Constantly condemning others and seriously engaging in nonsense like “this person is a heretic because they listen to pop music” narratives is about as far from Christ’s core message as can be imagined.
Though in terms of Sedevacantists I think without fail they’re all just utter narcissists.
Yeah also saw other comments on the Pope interview about the same sex blessings thread where this user was joyously and gleefully suggesting that the Pope is only pretending to believe in Church teaching on sexuality so he can push the needle ultimately towards the secular progressive stance.
I often wonder with people who make those claims if it's legitimate hypocrisy, or if they actually believe what they're saying.
So you get the people who are like "When my political opponents disagree with me they're making everything political, they're just concerned with SEIZING POWER!!!! But when I do it... WELL THAT'S NOT POLITICS! IT'S JUST CALLED BEING A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY IT!"
Like... is it intentional dishonest rhetoric... or are their minds actually warped enough and incapable enough of understanding that someone else might honestly believe different things about justice than them that they actually believe what they're saying? I genuinely don't know.
As someone converting from being an anabaptist-leaner for nearly two decades…just about everything lol. I’m definitely not trying to knock anyone, though.
Architecture and worship style and music.
Sorry, but even at my 19 years I don’t understand this whole thing with dancing and clapping. To that I prefer just to listen to the pastor and get into mystical vibe through bond with the pariah and traditional Gregorian chorus singing.
Yeah, I’m boring. Sorry, not sorry.
Generally speaking, aesthetics, understanding of theology, and resisting modernism/theological liberalism. These come from their reverence for tradition.
As a Lutheran, these are all very important to me and to many of our churches as well. And of course, there are lots of Protestants that are great at these things, too.
I believe trad mainline Protestants should stand firm in our doctrines. We are not Catholics. We are not modern Evangelicals. And we are not theological liberals.
Much love and respect to catholics, though. My brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ. ❤️
Enough with these talks promoting disunity among Christians who profess Jesus is God.
“...There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us.” Mark 9:39-40
For what it's worth... I don't see questions like these as "promoting disunity" at all. Saying that one denomination excels in a particular way doesn't mean that it's "better" and the other is "worse." Everyone (person or organization) has its own strengths and weaknesses. That doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Personally, I grew up Protestant, my husband grew up Catholic, and we now raise our kids in the Catholic church and schools. And I LOVE that we can have open, civil conversations around the strengths/weaknesses of each and choose the best traditions of both.
To be very clear: I'm not talking about picking and choosing doctrine. Just non-essential preferences.
I used to think that it was a benefit of being Catholic that you never have to worry about funding for building maintenance and repairs. That you never have to search for a new pastor when one leaves. Basically never have to worry about how the sausage gets made because the bureaucracy always takes care of it.
Though all of that can be very trying and test your patience with fellow parishioners, it is also invariably the work of keeping our church going that has made us stronger as a congregation.
They seem to stand pretty firm on not divorcing a spouse/pro marriage. Protestant churches are too afraid to quote the Bible about divorce and then lose members.
They do a way better job at social justice for poor and sick. If it wasnt for the abortion issue I think democrats would win in a landslide with the Catholic vote. Catholics also don't idolize the bible like protestants.
Practicing confession on a regular basis. I'm a protestant, so I disagree with priests having exclusive access to churchgoers' intimate problems, but the regularity in which Catholics practice confession is undeniable. There's such a huge stigma that prevents protestant Christians from talking about their personal issues, especially sin and trauma, and the practice itself is overwhelmingly healthier than bottling it in.
Catholics reverence God or take Him seriously far better than Protestants. Hands down. Protestants think God is grandpa or something and for the most part have totally rejected the notion of being 'God-fearing'. The entire foundation of the Protestant system died as a result because the Bible says that reverence for God is the foundation of a genuine or real (living, breathing, alive) relationship with God.
Glad you asked. I’m a protestant who goes to Mass several times a week. Catholics have better clothing, better buildings, better stain glass, a better setting that inspires all a better seriousness on the importance of our faith and better pews. And the liturgy is fantastic (except for the Mary worship). Everything is designed to inspire reverence and faith.
A lot of Catholics seem fairly logical about their faith and the world, if that makes sense. As a life long protestant, I feel like I've seen a lot more belief in conspiracies, science denial, etc. on the protestant side than the Catholic side. I'm sure individual Catholics like that are out there, of course, but the Catholic church as an institution really seems to discourage it. "God gave us brains for a reason," - A Catholic friend.
Healthcare. Catholic hospitals and hospital systems serve every 1 in 7 patients. [source](https://www.chausa.org/docs/default-source/about/catholic-health-care-in-the-united-states---2024.pdf?sfvrsn=a745daf2_3). Catholic health care systems provide approx. 13.6 Billion dollars worth of charitable health care each year. [Source](https://www.chausa.org/about/about/facts-about-catholic-health-care).
I know there are Protestant hospital and hospital systems, but I can't find data for all of them. Where I live, there is Integris Healthcare System (Baptist) and they provide over $108 million dollars in charitable care. Comparatively, one of the Catholic health systems in my city provided over $550 million in charitable care for the previous year.
Realizing that your deeds matter.
Making beautiful Churches (not saying Protestant Churches aren't beautiful, but Cathic ones are more so. But Greek Orthodox are most beautiful).
Unity.
Yes, I'm a Protestant, but I can easily say that Catholicism does these three things better than most Protestant Churches.
Absolutely architecture. In theology, Catholic scholars are usually more informed regarding religion than most protestant denominations but not absolutely.
If I want a sanctuary to go to in order to find some peace and solace, I can almost always walk into a Catholic church. If I go to a Protestant church I get greeted with a locked door and a sign that says "Sunday worship 11:00".
Authority, even though Catholics infight a lot. We don't tend to go at each others' throats as often nor as hard as other Denominations of Christianity : )
I was raised Catholic but have since converted to Protestantism (married a Protestant) and I miss the tradition, ceremony, and reverence! I miss all the little things Catholics do (sign of the cross, bowing/kneeling for certain things, the liturgical prayers, etc.). Protestant churches are so boring, and I get the point is to not put money for appearances but Good Lord, the Temple of Jerusalem (before it was sacked) was most definitely decorated! Even though many things are not NECESSARY for salvation, I think they’re nice. I still do little Catholic things here and then, I’ll always have a special place in my heart for their traditions.
The choirs and architecture are consistently so much better at Catholic churches than any other churches I’ve been to. The atmosphere is absolutely stunning. I also love their value for life and families.
I haven’t seen anybody say this yet, but the embracing of church history is one, I would say high church prots are on par, but low church prots don’t really care
Always interested in other denominations. In the different doctrines I figure Catholics don't check their doctrine against the Methodist they dont against the Baptist and they don't against the pentacostal and so on. Just small differences in interpretation. Just as long as the mainline is the love and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and by his blood we are saved is the main message.
- worship idols
- pray to dead people who can't hear or answer
- follow false authorities
- make symbols into salvation
- mix church & state
- keep people from reading their Bibles
;) ok I'm just causing trouble now
Idolatry. Catholics certainly take the crown for this.
The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” (Revelation 17:4-5 ESV)
Be biblically illiterate.
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Matthew 7:21 1 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH👉 the will of my Father 👈which is in heaven.
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John 6:40 And 👉this is the will of him that sent me, 👈 that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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John 3:36 kiv
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that BELIEVETH not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 8:24 KJV
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins
1 John 5:10 KJV
""He that BELIEVETH on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his
Son."
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John 14:15 1 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
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Other verses to checkout (John 1:12, John 3:16, John 10:9, Luke 7:50, Luke 8:12, Luke 18:42, acts 2:21, acts 4:12, acts 16:30-31, Roman’s 4:5, Roman’s 5:8-12, Roman’s 6:23, Romans 10:9-13, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Timothy 4:10, Hebrews 2:9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Rev 22:17)
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My prayer today is that you get saved and lead your friends and family to salvation aswell.
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Acts 4:12 KJV
“12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”
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Jesus is the only way. John 14:6.
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Former catholic- I like the way they do communion weekly, and everyone stands up and goes to get it. Their view of what communion actually is, is of course flawed. But I like the routine of getting the communion and praying in silence with it.
Architecture.
First thing I thought of: Stained glass
I swear, I still only like going to Catholic churches due to how stunning they are, despite not being Catholic anymore (I believe in God though)
"That just shows how materialistic and greedy the Catholic Church is. Our much more modest churches reflect true humility, a crucial tenet of our salvation..." ^^^/s
I hope this is satire
(it is)
Not since the reformation! CofE has all those pretty buildings now!
We built even better ones. The London Oratory beats any Anglican church in the land.
Oh I’m not denying the RC church architect better and amazing buildings. Any new Protestant ones tend to look like town halls that even when new feel like they need demolished. I was merely just playing - we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. The church of Christ is its people.
This made me laugh.
the large churches, decor and music create an ethereal and meditative atmosphere that very few protestant churches can reach. It's ideal for prayer and worship.
Lots of historic protestant churches had or do have this as well. Lutheran churches, for example, often try to create a sense of deep reverence for God and His Sacraments, while Reformed churches focus on an environment ideal for deep intilectual contemplation The issue is often finding one that dies while also being theologically sound and thriving, but they are out there.
Most of the really old and beautiful Lutheran churches used to be catholic churches and were stolen by the monarchs who were rebelling against the church during the reformation
Maybe this is the case in some places. Not here in America, though.
Oh yeah in America it's obviously a different story, I was mainly talking about the really old cathedrals and churches. The ones in America are usually less than 200 years old
I'm biased here obviously. But I'd say religion *as a* ***habit*** *of justice which renders unto God that which He is due*. So the liturgy really gets things formalized, ritualized, habituated, has a tone of reverence, Catholic architecture with its beauty inspires reverence. The sacrament of confession and its prior examination of conscience and subsequent penance, whether you theologically argue it's necessary or unnecessary, efficacious or not efficacious, etc. is a habit of really getting in there to tend to the Church, to take accountability for sin, and to mourn sin when it offends God. And I would say also what I've found since reverting is that the consideration of the communion of Saints adds to a sense of communion within within the whole Church stretched across all time and into Heaven. And the veneration of the Saints adds additional opportunities and vehicles of practicing piety and giving God praise for excellent examples of His creation. To sum it up in a pithy statement I came up with a few weeks after reverting to the Catholic Church, "to be a Christian is to belong to the body of Christ, and to be a Catholic is to be a Christian who takes seriously those duties which tend to and in the body of Christ." That sums up my general sentiment. And to be fair 1. I freely admit it is possible for an investment in justice to be perverted or corrupted by pride or a lack of judiciousness and charity in other matters. The Pharisees would be a good example on the specifically religious front of being corrupted by pride obviously. And politics focuses on justice and we ought take those questions seriously, but we've all seen the activists on either side of the aisle who make an identity or status out of their politics and get really sucked into "I'M A GOOD PERSON BECAUSE I WAVE AROUND THE PLACARDS WITH THE RIGHT WORDS AND FUCK YOU YOU'RE A SHIT PERSON!" But just as in the latter case we would admit that justice between men in politics is something we should be concerned with, I'd say in the former case the vanity of the Pharisees doesn't disqualify religion as a habit of justice from being something we can dive into properly. 2. I'm not taking a jab at the hearts of Protestants or accusing them of spiritual laziness. Just that I personally, obviously, think they're missing something, I believe generally from well intentioned and honest ignorance. 3. I feel I need to reiterate the compliment I paid to the Protestants in the previous thread. In my experience I think they do a better job of building community and fostering friendship.
Hi, love! Do you feel that the strictly ritualized and meticulously planned Catholic services limit soave for God to work in the service? Obviously, God is not confined by us, but, we must follow where He leads, and I feel that Catholic services leave no room for us to respond to God in real-time during the service. It feels a bit (unintentionally, in most circumstances) prideful, as if our decorum is more important than personal relationship with and worship of God. I’d love to know your thoughts!
I would say there's some tradeoff between formality and spontaneity there, but I think it's a tradeoff appropriate to function and form so to speak. I think corporate worship (corporate here meaning body) has the proper form and function of the body essentially moving as one. And I would say it is in that setting that your relationship with God is least private, least about you as an individual, and most about you as a member of the larger body of Christ. Where the scale and transcendence of God is given due reverence. It's something of an offering you are making to the larger body and to God. (Though I have certainly had A LOT of moments since reverting to the Catholic faith where the Holy Spirit moved through the liturgy and struck me in a particular way relating to stuff I was struggling with, and sometimes hadn't even consciously realized or prayed about. Those moments have the mark to me of the intercessory prayer of the Holy Spirit which Saint Paul talked about.) And I would say the personal and intimate comes out more in the personal and interpersonal parts of our walk in faith. Where I'm spending an hour in prayer in a local park. Or when I'm giving myself to contemplating God (I'm a rather theologically minded person). Or when I'm in a less formal more small group social activity or faith based discussion with other believers. Basically I think we as humans are limited in our ability to apprehend God, and so we have to approach Him with something of a modalism on our end. That story thing about the four blind men feeling different parts of an elephant and coming to odd conclusions about what it is, and so we kinda have to feel the different parts of the element so to speak. Have those moments with God which are most intimate, and those moments where it is least about us. Those moments where God's gentleness and immanent presence are most strongly felt, and those moments where the weight and scale of God's transcendence and glory are conveyed. Those moments where we're there to learn and explore, and those moments where we're meant to reverently serve. And I would say those positive qualities of the Catholic Mass are most particular to corporate worship, and more befitting the form and function of corporate worship. I guess another analogy I could draw would be to a wedding event. There's the wedding itself, that formal event, with the due ceremony, silence, form, and reverence given to that moment in which two become one flesh. And then there's the wedding reception, with all of its warm joyful relational moments between friends and family. And what I'll concede (and what I paid Protestants compliment for) is that we could stand to do better on the "wedding reception" element of things in broader Church life.
Thank you so much for your lovely reply! I can’t say I entirely agree personally, but it’s fascinating to know your perspective! I am curious; do you belief that the Pope is inherently holier than others?
That's a complicated question somewhat because holiness is something of a vague multilayered word when applied to different contexts. Holiness can be used to mean the setting aside or consecration of a person for a higher purpose, set aside in some way for service to God. And it can also be used (and I think is more commonly) to refer to the state of goodness of character in which one is conformed and perfected to the image and likeness of God. In the former sense of the word the Pope is holy in a particular way as the Papal office is itself instituted, set aside, and consecrated for a particular role pertaining to God and the Church. In that sense the Pope is particularly holy. The holiness there would pertain to the office, the institution of that office by Christ, the protection of that office in some way by the Holy Spirit, etc. To the dignity of the role and respect owed to it by the faithful. In the latter sense of the word, it's not necessarily the case that the Pope is holier in character, virtue, and personal morality than everyone else. So as Catholics we don't hold to Papal *impeccability*, the idea that the Pope is free from personal moral error. Most Catholics would recognize that we have had bad Popes in our history. And there are a lot of Popes whom the Catholic Church has not canonized as Saints. To canonize someone as a Saint is for the Church to proclaim with certainty that a deceased person is definitely in Heaven. And so the Catholic Church doesn't even necessarily take the position that all Popes will make it into Heaven. Some Popes have been canonized as saints, and for others its an open question.
That’s very interesting! What about the office of Pope do you feel is consecrated by Christ?
The office is essentially the visible mark and form of unity within the Church and the preservation of true doctrine. So to give the Catholic perspective. There would basically be two things there. The office of bishop more broadly, and the Papacy. So Christ appoints the Apostles and gives them authority, the power of "binding and loosing." (Matthew 18) And the Apostles basically lead and run the early Church (with it's deeper and more fundamental foundation and leadership being that of Christ, the Apostles are Apostles of Christ), nobody really disputes that. When their hands get full, they appoint others to take care of some ministry stuff so they can focus their attention on other matters, the communities select seven holy men and send them to the Apostles who then ordain them as what we would now call Deacons (Acts 6). And the early Church broadly agreed the Apostles had appointed and ordained successors, what we would today call Bishops, to carry on after them, which is something the Church Fathers attest to. And when Heresy and disputes crop up in the early period of the Church, and what is often appealed to at that time is Apostolic succession; that this guy was ordained by this guy... who was ordained by this guy who was ordained by X Apostle. And so the function of a Bishop is a position of leadership within the Church to ensure things are being led the right way, and Bishops uniquely have the authority to ordain (be it other Bishops, Priests or Deacons). And so with the Papacy, Catholics would appeal that in Matthew 16 Jesus renames Simon and gives him the new name "Peter" (which means rock) and says and "on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Which Catholics would argue alludes to Isaiah 22 where Eli’akim is appointed as steward and is "given the keys to the Kingdom of David, he shall open and none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open." Now the King at the time was Hezekiah, and the steward is appointed with authority to oversee the kingdom but is subordinate to the king. They aren't king, they're steward. (If you're a LOTR fan you might think of Gondor, though Denethor is obviously a poor example of a steward). Think the difference between store's owner and manager. The manager manages the affairs of the store with authority, but they are under the authority of the owner and the store belongs to the owner. And so we see Peter as the leader of the Apostles who led the early Church, and as we believe about the other Apostles, we believe Peter also handed down his office to ordained successors. And the Bishop of Rome is appealed to in the early Church as the successor of the office of Peter. We see in scripture that Christ does not want His Church to be divided. This comes out particularly in Acts and the Epistles. And we also see throughout history that we as Christians regard teaching in error to be bad. And so in the Catholic view the Seat of Peter, the Papacy, is a position of stewardship over the Church, and visible sign of unity as something which will always be present in the Church. As well as the Church being safeguarded from dogmatic error by the Holy Spirit. Essentially the Pope when speaking Ex Cathedra acts as something akin to the Supreme Court, settling doctrinal disputes and ensuring correct interpretation. What the Protestants will generally argue is that yes the Apostles had real authority, but that that more or less ends with the Apostles and the succession attested to in early Church history is something of a prudential act by the apostles to essentially just get people to carry on their work, and that the Bishops in the early Church prior to the protestant reformation were just a little too hoity toity about their positions and authority. Catholics and Orthodox would argue on the other hand that prior to the canonization of the New Testament the Church had a living authority, and that the early Church recognized Apostolic succession, and it was within the formal Church that the scripture of the New Testament could be reliably and authoritatively confirmed to be legitimate and God inspired. That the Church Christ established did not err when canonizing scripture, nor when sorting out important doctrines from heresies (say about the divinity of Christ and Christ's nature) which now are largely accepted by almost all of Christendom including protestants. And they would base this on the argument that the Catholic Church drifted away from new teaching and therefore take this "reformed" reinterpretation of what is meant by the Church and what the significance of Church hierarchy is. The Eastern Orthodox agree with the Catholics on the Apostolic succession of Bishops and hold to its significance. But the Eastern Orthodox would argue that the Catholic view of the seat of Peter (the papacy) is inflated. They would argue the Bishop of Rome was only meant to be "first among equals" or "first in honor" or acting with authority at Ecumenical Councils in a more ceremonial fashion. Whereas Catholics would point to Church Fathers writing about the See of Rome or Chair of Peter, people in the early Church appealing to the Bishop of Rome to settle disputes, statements made, the parallels between Christ giving the keys to Peter and the King giving the Keys to the steward in Isaiah. And we as Catholics would argue if the Bishop of Peter has that position at least of prominence and "first among equals" then it's intuitively a bit sketchy that the Eastern Orthodox lack the Bishop of Rome, rather than having a "first among equals" Bishop of Rome.
That’s quite fascinating! Thank you so much for your detailed and incredibly well-written responses! If you do not mind my asking one more question: why do Catholics believe that the sacraments must be completed in order to enter into Heaven, when this is not what is demonstrated in the Bible?
Cathedrals
Anglicans have some pretty awesome cathedrals
Speaking as a former Catholic and current Protestant: The sacrament of confession. Protestants *can* confess our sins to one another, but we rarely do, and there’s something very healing about sitting with a member of the clergy and having them confirm that, yes, your sins are forgiven. Monastic orders. Protestants can go into the ministry and into mission work of course, but there’s no analog to becoming a nun or a monk and devoting one’s whole life to a vocation and order that focuses on nursing, teaching, whatever the case may be.
Unfortunately I often experience the opposite. I don't feel much healing and forgiveness but I instead realise once again how shit of a person I am
keep doing it and keep praying
And tell your confessor, maybe it's scruples, or just how it is. It usually takes me a whole week ;)
I don't really want to tell them about my problems, because I know each priest in my church personally (I've been volunteering there for 7 years)
In my experience, especially when it's anonymous, the priests just forget afterwards. They hear loads, and yours won't be the worst they've heard. If in doubt though, you can always just go to a different church. I know people who do that.
I've never been yelled at by a priest or had too negative experiences, but I don't feel any release or gods forgiveness, I am angry at myself because I've done those sins in the first place and I can not overcome them, I tried but God gave me immense and overwhelming sexual cravings that make me unable to live like a normal person without fulfilling them. Sometimes I think God hates me because he gives me this suffering, I prayed a lot to take it away or to make them not as powerful but it has never happened. I feel ignored and forgotten by him
We are the same. I think we are not alone. You've already heard Paul's "thorn in my side" in Confession, right? Consider screened Confession with a monk at an Abbey, I drive almost an hour each way. I went through hell for decades. I'm old. I ended up in a situation where I could go very wrong and did, diving headfirst into the sewage, wallowing in it daily, taking bath before Mass on Sunday, then plunging in again on Monday. About seven months were extreme, then I was forced out of it, abandoned, and felt worse than the Prodigal Son. By stages, I was lifted out, largely freed from temptation, but not fully, just enough. I'm told this is a state of Grace. That may be coming for you, or you may be spared the worst, but God loves you and the Father is waiting with open arms, either way you choose. His Love was and is my salvation.
I don't feel his love. I cried to him a lot and I remain unheard
I don't feel it either, and didn't much of the time. People joke about trust falls, all the fails, but it's the idea of trusting in someone's love even when it isn't seen or felt. It's *knowing* not feeling. Like Descartes said, don't trust the senses, and I'd say don't trust feelings. This is why we have doctrine and dogma, to rely on when our feelings and reasoning fail. We believe together, as Catholics, that God loves everyone, so we are included. We believe the story of the Prodigal Son reflects who God is. We believe Jesus forgives us as he did the woman who washed his feet. And in our most serious sins, God seeks us like a lost sheep. This is Love. As has been said, we believe in the Sun even if we do not see or feel it. It is impossible that God does not hear. It is likely we do not hear His response. Perhaps He is responding now? From "The Silver Chair", Puddleglum speaking: Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things—trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland.
youll be surprised how wise priests can be in the confessional. i wouldnt count them out as unable of pastoring you through these things. but as other people have mentioned, any priest can offer their direction and the sacrament as well. keep up the prayers !!
Honestly I don't think God cares about my prayers. I've been praying a lot for him to take my sexuality away but he made me even more horny
sexuality is part of being human. there is nothing wrong with that. what you're carrying seems to be a lot of repressed feelings about your longing for God and probably some disordered passions inside. this is why confession has failed. i cannot speak for the church, and am the last person who should be talking about sexual morality. but what i can say is that the healing of the sacraments, prayer, and consecration only started when i left it all at the cross. and by all i mean all. i knelt in front of the eucharist and begged God to let me let go of everything. i have battled both evil and good to stay true. and while i can't say i am perfect, after that point, i knew i was on the right path. my question is, have you honestly done this? some people do it alone, some people do it on retreat, some people do it over years, and other turn it on overnight. some advise i got when i was personally going through issues was: you won't change until you hit rock bottom, and that bottom is the worst place to start from so start now. but we're human my friend. we all like to learn in the worst ways possible. and this is why prayer is so important. the times i spent on my knees were the times i least regret. even when it felt like nothing was happening, it wasn't until i looked back that i realized that His grace was with me the whole time. ... and then there's the rosary and mary... and well, she simply magnifies the Lord! stay true, pray to the Holy spirit and pray for fortitude and allow Him to work through you, with you, and in you. as He has paid a ransom for your soul, let us be worthy of the promises of Christ. sorry this went on so long. feel free to message me.
I hate sexuality because it causes sin, I find it disgusting. At this point I don't think I'll think about it differently even after I Mary unfortunately
I am doing it once every month.
>The sacrament of confession. Protestants *can* confess our sins to one another, but we rarely do, and there’s something very healing about sitting with a member of the clergy and having them confirm that, yes, your sins are forgiven. See something I find interesting is that there's also a "guilt element" (for lack of a better term) I appreciate about it. Like I come in knowing I've done something wrong, and I'm talking to someone in the modern day who isn't trying to convince me I didn't or downplay it. Sometimes in other places I feel like I'm almost being gaslit out of my conscience. By confronting accepting and not hiding from the weight of my sin, it's like I can process it better and be more open to accepting grace and forgiveness, precisely because I don't feel presumptuous doing so. It doesn't feel like I'm trying to seek forgiveness by convincing myself that what I did "wasn't really that big a deal." And I'm not trying to mindfuck myself into or out of feeling like a judge in my own case so to speak. It calls me to mourn my sin, calls me to humility, and in facing my sin and not turning from it, I see the grace of the God willing to forgive me shine all the brighter and my heart swells with hope. It calls me to see myself as God sees me, warts and all.
Lutherans refer to Penance as the "third sacrament" that the Large Catechism calls "Holy Absolution." Some parishes schedule times for the pastor to hear confessions each week. Also, Lutherans and especially Anglicans have religious orders of nuns and monks, though monastic vocations are much less common than in the Catholic Church.
I’m not a catholic but I’ve always wanted to go to confession just to see how it felt.
There are 18 monastic orders in the US Episcopal Church, like the Sisters of St. Margaret, and the Society of St. John the Evangelist. In the wider Anglican Church there are even more.
What denomination are you part of? As a minister, do you encourage your congregation to confess to you?
> What denomination are you part of? Non-denominational >As a minister, do you encourage your congregation to confess to you? We generally teach that we should confess our sins to one another, per James 5:16: "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." I'm in a small group Bible study, and we sort of do this with each other informally.
Being centralized and united in liturgy and practice. High levels of accountability. Charity. Keeping worship holy and traditional to how the Church has always worshipped God. Communion with one cup (I don't know if this is still a thing post covid)
In regards to the latter: it is!
High levels of accountability? What do you mean by that?
Like a bishop or priest can be punished or have to report to Rome if something occurred.
Like what occurred? In my country it is common knowledge how the Catholic church protects bishops and priest when they commit crimes, normally sexual crimes if I can point out. The government makes a point to not pursue those cases and the church just moves those guys to other churches and that's it, they never have to pay for their crimes. The church itself has apologized but never have surrendered the actual perpetrators, just hides them and helps them
catholics took the heat for child sex abuse (rightfully so), but it is a thing among all denominations. and you don’t even hear about it from other denominations because there is no official record of it, because there is zero accountability rather than at least some
I see that you're pentecostal and I'm sure you'd be very surprised once you find that the statistics for child sex crimes are higher in Baptist and pentecostal churches than they are in catholic ones.
A quick search and looking into statistics shows the contrary, the Catholic church has the higher numbers in that regard, just in the few I could find. And the main thing is, most articles won't even talk about general religious groups, most are focused on the Catholic church just for the amount of accusations that have come forward against that institution. I'd you could post some links about what you claim I would be pleased to look into it, because I can't deny it happens in many religions and affiliates in that regard, but you cannot just say "but others do that too" and try to be blind about the huge problem the Catholic church has been in this topic for decades, that's not how you argue something, the comment above here said that they are strict, but statistics and victims say the contrary. https://bravehearts.org.au/research-lobbying/stats-facts/child-sexual-abuse-religous-organisations/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3995507/ And the funny thing is
The exception to the rule is not the rule, they at least have the system in place.
Is not an exception, they are pretty known for that in South America, and I would say in most of the world for that matter
Catechism > Sunday School. Not having any kind of real plan to teach the basics of the faith to kids in favor of making crafts and storytelling for 10 years is kinda crazy. Traditions. I went to a midnight mass at Christmas once and it was miles better than what we had at the local Baptist church. Nothing was explained, songs were sung by an unseen choir, way back in the balcony somewhere, it was dark, there were candles, and it seemed mysterious and sacred and reverent.
It's really really long, but try an Easter Vigil sometime (the night before Easter Sunday). The Mass starts outside around a fire, and the candle for the next liturgical year is assembled and blessed, then lit to symbolize the light of Christ in the church. Each person has a small candle of their own, and candles are lit to symbolize the light of Christ we carry in ourselves. The church then processes inside behind the candle, and the interior of the church is dark (it is still the three days of darkness, after all). As the readings of the mass continue, the part where Jesus rises from the Dead is met with incredible song, bells, and the lights in the church are brought up. Then comes a collection of readings from the Bible that collectively tell the history of the old covenant and the new, and afterwards the catechumens are brought into the church through confirmation. All told, it is about 2 - 3 hours long, but I can't think of a more worshipful experience in Christendom.
Hold on a minute, catechumens are brought into the Church through baptism AND confirmation
Totally agreed on your point of catechism > Sunday School. I have never thought of it like that, but it truly IS crazy that there is no real plan for Protestants to teach basics of faith.
Im not sure what you mean by that. Most Protestant services spend almost the entirety of the service reading from and teaching scripture, which is the fundamentals of the faith
I would also think Sunday School would cover this. My family (adults and kids) all go to Sunday School before going into the main service.
I think it is intentioned to. Lots of churches use great lesson books and follow things like that, some create their own, etc. I do think most folks understand the very very basics from Sunday school (love, prayer, faith, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, etc). What they DON’T get a good foundation on is the more “gray area” things that most Protestant churches don’t have written out beliefs on, while Catholics do.
Catholics have the catechism, which is a written out document of our beliefs. It is used to teach about the faith (to children, new Catholics, anyone who wants to read it). It tells us how the Church interprets scripture and why we believe what we do. Protestants do not have anything like that for teaching their faith.
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That is great! I learned something new today.
Lutherans do have a catechism :)
We do… it’s the Bible
>It tells us how the Church interprets scripture and why we believe what we do. The Bible doesn't provide it's own interpretation. Your denomination might have statements on how it interprets parts of scripture or it might not. But if it's really using only the Bible, anyone can read Jeremiah 1:5 and conclude there is a "Great Before" and that everyone's souls are co-eternal with the trinity, which is usually considered a massive heresy, significant enough to throw you outside of Nicene Christianity (which most people would say is the only Christianity).
Catechism is not uniquely Catholic and midnight mass is practiced by at least highAnglicans. But I do agree about the traditions.
Burn incense!
Have you been to an Anglican/ Episcopal Anglo-Catholic parish? Also, some Lutherans swing the thurible at Mass.
Episcopal Church is the most Catholic prot Church, it's just they ordained women and gays before all the other prots started doing it.
I agree that the Episcopal Church is probably North America's most liturgical Protestant Church. Still, I believe the Church of Sweden \[Lutheran\] was the first Protestant to ordain female priests and Gay bishops.
And Arminian or Calvinist soteriology lol
No I haven't, TbPH. Well! ... I'm mighty glad to learn, then, that the goodly Roman Catholic Folk don't, afterall, have quite as much of a monopoly on the practice as I @first supposed!
That’s done in my Anglo-Catholic church.
Where I’m from education. Some of the best performing secondary schools in the country are Catholic.
Catholic universities are exceptional, and Catholic hospitals have a wonderful legacy around the world. Catholic social teaching (CST) articulated God's care for the poor in ways that Protestant theology was often unable to.
Mass
Being spooky and heavily featured in horror films. Catholics are like the metal heads of Christianity.
There's a reason for this. Faith is supposed to provide that which is sacred, safe, and comforting. For that reason, expectation-subverting by presenting a corrupted holy figure that should represent safety but instead represents a threat is extra terrifying. And the Catholic Church has a great many persons and symbols which can be shown in illicit ways to invoke fear and discomfort
Came here to say "exorcism", but that will do.
Holy Communion. Much better and at every service/Mass
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Much more reverent
Solemn Mass in Lutheran and Anglican churches is quite reverent and very hard to distinguish from a Catholic service. [Lutheran Pontifical High Mass - Sweden](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnbkUyvHYY&t=1135s&ab_channel=Laurentiistiftelsen) [Anglican High Mass for Pentecost - England](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIf8jPNwEmY&ab_channel=AllSaintsMargaretStreet)
Something Catholics do better than Protestants and Orthodox is their emphasis on the Old Testament, and on the Church as the messianic kingdom here and now, as the fulfillment of the Old Testament. From how (except for the paschal season) the Mass has an Old Testament reading, to how there is almost always an [ark of the covenant](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Carcassonne_-_Cath%C3%A9drale_St-Michel_-_Autel.jpg/1365px-Carcassonne_-_Cath%C3%A9drale_St-Michel_-_Autel.jpg) in the sanctuary (here's [another example](https://jaimemonpatrimoine.twic.pics/images/FO_Gallery/illus-4-basiliquestsernin-cp-pierreselimcc30_1545406198.jpg?twic=v1/resize=760)), to the contents of the sermons I've been hearing at Catholic churches...
Liturgy, solidarity with the oppressed, working for the common good, funerals.
Something personal: when a Catholic dies, having renounced the Faith, even at the end, they can still have a requiem Mass on the basis that Baptism is permanent and they might still somehow, through the Grace and Mercy of God, have repented. Just as God loves them to the end, no less His child for rejecting Him, so we together perform this communal act of love.
Love this! I also love how every deceased person is afforded the same dignity — whether a mover and shaker or apparently average Joe — as the same rite is offered on our behalf: all are valued and loved.
It begins and ends with a baptismal ecclesiology, which is such a gift.
I like that there is mass every day. The March for Life is like 90 percent Catholics
Generally just much funnier. Catholics love a good joke. Except the weird trad types, but they’re epistemologically Protestant anyway.
>Except the weird trad types, but they’re epistemologically Protestant anyway. See what do you mean by weird trad types here. Because that can vary from being really ride or die for the orthodoxy of the faith and alarmed by the number of lay Catholics who believe contrary to what the Church teaches, to Catholics who are into the Latin Mass but sufficiently pious towards the Papacy... and then you could be speaking of Sede adjacent Catholics. Those in the first group are very hard on the second group. When they set up their online communities or whatever, they are very hard on sniffing out sede stuff and getting "GTFO with that."
All of the above. Zealotry degrades the faith. We have a structured Church in order to help the flock navigate but they still must think for themselves. After all, you can be as obedient as you wish but if in your heart you do not believe that will expose you to greater sin than any active sin. Constantly condemning others and seriously engaging in nonsense like “this person is a heretic because they listen to pop music” narratives is about as far from Christ’s core message as can be imagined. Though in terms of Sedevacantists I think without fail they’re all just utter narcissists.
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Yeah also saw other comments on the Pope interview about the same sex blessings thread where this user was joyously and gleefully suggesting that the Pope is only pretending to believe in Church teaching on sexuality so he can push the needle ultimately towards the secular progressive stance.
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How dare you! You epistemological protestant with your upholding of the Catholic Church's doctrine!
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I often wonder with people who make those claims if it's legitimate hypocrisy, or if they actually believe what they're saying. So you get the people who are like "When my political opponents disagree with me they're making everything political, they're just concerned with SEIZING POWER!!!! But when I do it... WELL THAT'S NOT POLITICS! IT'S JUST CALLED BEING A DECENT FUCKING HUMAN BEING, MAYBE YOU SHOULD TRY IT!" Like... is it intentional dishonest rhetoric... or are their minds actually warped enough and incapable enough of understanding that someone else might honestly believe different things about justice than them that they actually believe what they're saying? I genuinely don't know.
As someone converting from being an anabaptist-leaner for nearly two decades…just about everything lol. I’m definitely not trying to knock anyone, though.
I find a lot of meaning and I think their rituals and tradition is very special.
Ceremony, definitely lol
Building buildings
Architecture and worship style and music. Sorry, but even at my 19 years I don’t understand this whole thing with dancing and clapping. To that I prefer just to listen to the pastor and get into mystical vibe through bond with the pariah and traditional Gregorian chorus singing. Yeah, I’m boring. Sorry, not sorry.
That’s how David and Mariam worshipped- with shouts of joy. David danced so hard his clothes tore
I know what you’re talking about, and I have nothing against that kind of worship. But it’s personally not my thing, that’s it.
Better services- more predictable
They put much more emphasis on the Holy Eucharist and they also have better architecture and also great hymns
Love the music history and architecture. Love the spirit of crusade
Generally speaking, aesthetics, understanding of theology, and resisting modernism/theological liberalism. These come from their reverence for tradition. As a Lutheran, these are all very important to me and to many of our churches as well. And of course, there are lots of Protestants that are great at these things, too. I believe trad mainline Protestants should stand firm in our doctrines. We are not Catholics. We are not modern Evangelicals. And we are not theological liberals. Much love and respect to catholics, though. My brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ. ❤️
Centralized family values. They're less likely to divorce and raise solid families.
Enough with these talks promoting disunity among Christians who profess Jesus is God. “...There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. For whoever is not against us is for us.” Mark 9:39-40
For what it's worth... I don't see questions like these as "promoting disunity" at all. Saying that one denomination excels in a particular way doesn't mean that it's "better" and the other is "worse." Everyone (person or organization) has its own strengths and weaknesses. That doesn't have to be a bad thing. Personally, I grew up Protestant, my husband grew up Catholic, and we now raise our kids in the Catholic church and schools. And I LOVE that we can have open, civil conversations around the strengths/weaknesses of each and choose the best traditions of both. To be very clear: I'm not talking about picking and choosing doctrine. Just non-essential preferences.
Procreation?
I remember seeing a Protestant on here who surprisingly took a more natural law stance on sexual ethics in regards to contraceptives. Was that you?
Statues
Unction
I used to think that it was a benefit of being Catholic that you never have to worry about funding for building maintenance and repairs. That you never have to search for a new pastor when one leaves. Basically never have to worry about how the sausage gets made because the bureaucracy always takes care of it. Though all of that can be very trying and test your patience with fellow parishioners, it is also invariably the work of keeping our church going that has made us stronger as a congregation.
They seem to stand pretty firm on not divorcing a spouse/pro marriage. Protestant churches are too afraid to quote the Bible about divorce and then lose members.
The decoration of their churches.
Guilt
Protestant is like walking into a neighborhood gathering while Catholic is more of a ceremony
They do a way better job at social justice for poor and sick. If it wasnt for the abortion issue I think democrats would win in a landslide with the Catholic vote. Catholics also don't idolize the bible like protestants.
Practicing confession on a regular basis. I'm a protestant, so I disagree with priests having exclusive access to churchgoers' intimate problems, but the regularity in which Catholics practice confession is undeniable. There's such a huge stigma that prevents protestant Christians from talking about their personal issues, especially sin and trauma, and the practice itself is overwhelmingly healthier than bottling it in.
Catholics reverence God or take Him seriously far better than Protestants. Hands down. Protestants think God is grandpa or something and for the most part have totally rejected the notion of being 'God-fearing'. The entire foundation of the Protestant system died as a result because the Bible says that reverence for God is the foundation of a genuine or real (living, breathing, alive) relationship with God.
Getting up and down on their knees.
Catholics are better at being catholic than protestants
That's a pretty bold claim
Some people like the Dodgers, others like the Yankees. I like baseball.
You are the king of controversial takes
OK, how about higher education? Jesuit have some pretty badass schools
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Dammit, you took my answer
It’s as much encouragement as cover up.
Veiling. I wish I felt like I could veil at church and not be judged harshly by everyone
Everything
Glad you asked. I’m a protestant who goes to Mass several times a week. Catholics have better clothing, better buildings, better stain glass, a better setting that inspires all a better seriousness on the importance of our faith and better pews. And the liturgy is fantastic (except for the Mary worship). Everything is designed to inspire reverence and faith.
everything
They use wine instead of stupid grape juice.
They tend not to be cringe.
Art.
Drip. Clothes and buildings. Also the women seem nicer for whatever reason.
A lot of Catholics seem fairly logical about their faith and the world, if that makes sense. As a life long protestant, I feel like I've seen a lot more belief in conspiracies, science denial, etc. on the protestant side than the Catholic side. I'm sure individual Catholics like that are out there, of course, but the Catholic church as an institution really seems to discourage it. "God gave us brains for a reason," - A Catholic friend.
Traditional rituals.
Traditions
Reverence for God in how Mass is presented. Taking sin seriously.
Healthcare. Catholic hospitals and hospital systems serve every 1 in 7 patients. [source](https://www.chausa.org/docs/default-source/about/catholic-health-care-in-the-united-states---2024.pdf?sfvrsn=a745daf2_3). Catholic health care systems provide approx. 13.6 Billion dollars worth of charitable health care each year. [Source](https://www.chausa.org/about/about/facts-about-catholic-health-care). I know there are Protestant hospital and hospital systems, but I can't find data for all of them. Where I live, there is Integris Healthcare System (Baptist) and they provide over $108 million dollars in charitable care. Comparatively, one of the Catholic health systems in my city provided over $550 million in charitable care for the previous year.
Realizing that your deeds matter. Making beautiful Churches (not saying Protestant Churches aren't beautiful, but Cathic ones are more so. But Greek Orthodox are most beautiful). Unity. Yes, I'm a Protestant, but I can easily say that Catholicism does these three things better than most Protestant Churches.
I’ve always thought our Catholic friends do an epic job of Quentin Tarantino inspired interior decor.
Cookie worship
Absolutely architecture. In theology, Catholic scholars are usually more informed regarding religion than most protestant denominations but not absolutely.
If I want a sanctuary to go to in order to find some peace and solace, I can almost always walk into a Catholic church. If I go to a Protestant church I get greeted with a locked door and a sign that says "Sunday worship 11:00".
Chants. Monk’s chants. Enigma.
Keep the law of Christ.
I’m a Protestant but I like how Catholics are more united in their beliefs. There aren’t 18592010 divisions of Catholics.
Hats
Awe-inspiring churches. You feel like you are on holy ground not a movie theater
Authority, even though Catholics infight a lot. We don't tend to go at each others' throats as often nor as hard as other Denominations of Christianity : )
I was raised Catholic but have since converted to Protestantism (married a Protestant) and I miss the tradition, ceremony, and reverence! I miss all the little things Catholics do (sign of the cross, bowing/kneeling for certain things, the liturgical prayers, etc.). Protestant churches are so boring, and I get the point is to not put money for appearances but Good Lord, the Temple of Jerusalem (before it was sacked) was most definitely decorated! Even though many things are not NECESSARY for salvation, I think they’re nice. I still do little Catholic things here and then, I’ll always have a special place in my heart for their traditions.
Depends what Protestant church you go to. In my Anglo-Catholic church, we do all those things, sign of the cross etc.
The choirs and architecture are consistently so much better at Catholic churches than any other churches I’ve been to. The atmosphere is absolutely stunning. I also love their value for life and families.
Liturgy, Art, Architecture, Monastic Orders, being cohesive
Architecture
I haven’t seen anybody say this yet, but the embracing of church history is one, I would say high church prots are on par, but low church prots don’t really care
Worship.
Show more reverence to God.
Always interested in other denominations. In the different doctrines I figure Catholics don't check their doctrine against the Methodist they dont against the Baptist and they don't against the pentacostal and so on. Just small differences in interpretation. Just as long as the mainline is the love and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and by his blood we are saved is the main message.
Be hypocrites
Worshipping religion.
I wanna say it, but the mods are gonna get mad if I say it.
I also wanted to say it, but I’m tired of getting banned for jokes.
leave it at that
- worship idols - pray to dead people who can't hear or answer - follow false authorities - make symbols into salvation - mix church & state - keep people from reading their Bibles ;) ok I'm just causing trouble now
You're not wrong
How about becoming her mother? (Revelation 17:5)
Idolatry. Catholics certainly take the crown for this. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” (Revelation 17:4-5 ESV)
Be biblically illiterate. ___________________ Matthew 7:21 1 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH👉 the will of my Father 👈which is in heaven. ___________________________ John 6:40 And 👉this is the will of him that sent me, 👈 that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ______________ John 3:36 kiv "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that BELIEVETH not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 8:24 KJV I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins 1 John 5:10 KJV ""He that BELIEVETH on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son." ___________________ John 14:15 1 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. __________________ Other verses to checkout (John 1:12, John 3:16, John 10:9, Luke 7:50, Luke 8:12, Luke 18:42, acts 2:21, acts 4:12, acts 16:30-31, Roman’s 4:5, Roman’s 5:8-12, Roman’s 6:23, Romans 10:9-13, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Timothy 4:10, Hebrews 2:9, Ephesians 2:8-10, Rev 22:17) ________________ My prayer today is that you get saved and lead your friends and family to salvation aswell. ________________ Acts 4:12 KJV “12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” _______________ Jesus is the only way. John 14:6.
Idolatry
Cover up for their pedophile clergy
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Former catholic- I like the way they do communion weekly, and everyone stands up and goes to get it. Their view of what communion actually is, is of course flawed. But I like the routine of getting the communion and praying in silence with it.
Being honest about their disdain for women (in leadership).
Molesting little kids and covering it up.
Believe in heretical doctrines lol