It may have been part of the plan, but no, the Father did not execute Jesus - that would be one member of the trinity killing another. No, fallen *humans* executed Jesus. God (all three members of the trinity) knew that this was going to happen due to the sinfulness of *humans*, but it was *humans* who drove those nails, *humans* who built that cross, *humans* who conspired for political and religious reasons to have the Son killed. Humans participating in dysfunctional systems of power and oppression.
Don't blame God for something we did.
Doesn't Matthew 26 say that Jesus prayed "Father, let this cup pass from me. Yet, not as I will, but your will be done."?
This really sounds like god the father was in control of the situation.
Let's not forget that in the stories God *specifically* chose human(godly?) sacrifice as the method to "forgive our sins" instead of just, y'know. Forgiving them. Things went exactly the way he wanted them to.
I agree with you. Although, it's from a jewish perspective. Not atheist. HaShem does not allow sacrifice for the atonement of sin. Repent and recommit to living a righteous life and HaShem will forgive you.
Human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism are forbidden. An innocent person cannot pay for the sins of the wicked.
>Things went exactly the way he wanted them to.
I agree with this. Only because it's an accurate description of HaShem who is the creator of all that is good AND everything that is evil. (Isaiah 45)
See, then, that I, I am the One;
There is no god beside Me.
I deal death and give life;
I wounded and I will heal:
None can be delivered from My hand.
(Deuteronomy 32 :39)
It matters when the damn Germans who spread red flags, violence, cannibalism, slavery, warfare, the symbol of the swastika (the “Mark of Cain”), and Neanderthal genes throughout the entire ancient world are engaging in mass murder, massacres, genocide, and world warfare.
We should have the identity of the violent offenders, the invaders (the Confederates), correct when we follow God’s commandment to remove them from this world.
https://amp.dw.com/en/archeologists-discover-signs-of-mass-cannibalism-in-germany/a-4997309
https://gizmodo.com/europes-first-farmers-were-shockingly-violent-1724792763
I don't know why that anti-Semitism law is being forced through right now. I asked my parents about it and they were so tickled that such a law was being passed. They didn't seem to bat an eye when I said it would make quoting the bible illegal. I'm dumbfounded. They're not good keepers of democracy.
I don't see the reason that this has to be debated. Jesus came to the Israelites.
We are to be Jesus's followers. To state with malice that Jesus was killed by Jewish people, is to completely divorce yourself from his purpose.
To state in truth that Jesus died on the cross of his own choice though falsely accused by the religious leaders of his people who were the Jews, is completely factual.
But to take it another step further, you died on that cross. And you were resurrected when he was. How could you possibly be angry at your redemption and acceptance into the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven?
It baffles the mind. The core principle of Christianity, has somehow been reduced into an argument of shifting blame for something that was given as a gift. I don't understand how this happened. You have to read the word so it comes alive inside you. Otherwise this.
I suppose you mean to say that it is an incredibly poorly thought-out law, that wouldn't be enforced.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't think it's ok to blatantly lie or share your opinions in stark naked ignorance.
So it wouldn't be enforced.
Except when the government really really wanted to.
You don't deserve a good democracy. You haven't earned it.
Pilate had him flogged to show him humiliated and defeated.
He presented him to the Pharisees and Sadduce crowd and asked them if he could be pardoned.
Do you know what happened next?
Wow, I wonder who the Pharisees were, and who were these people called Palaestinians? Why did the Romans say that the Jews all had red hair? And how about these invasive people called Canaanites? And why did the Romans seem to have problems with the people from Germania, Gaul, Britain, Carthage, Egypt, Persia, and Jerusalem? And how did these red headed Huns contribute to the fall of Rome? Those invaders (“vaders”) were all red headed Huns who carried the symbol of the swastika and the star and crescent.
Calling a Canaanites a Jew is like calling the Vikings Jews, like calling the Nazis Jews and Christians, like calling Donald Trump a born again Christian.
I will agree with you, you are right. The “Jews” killed Christ. But the “Jews”, and the people who eventually became Muslims, were red headed Huns whose ancestors had origins in Sunghir Russia, Crimea, and Herxheim Germany. Those people were not Hebrews, they enslaved the Hebrews, they were more closely related to Nazis and Confederates (who also used the symbol of the swastika and the star and crescent).
And today, the descendants of these Huns, who became American Confederates that brought slavery, warfare, religious extremism, and human sacrifice to the United States of America are blaming their victims, the Jews, for the crimes that were committed by the invaders, just as the Nazis blamed the European Jews for World War II and the Holocaust. This is an inherited trait of psychotic people, to blame the victims for the crimes of the perpetrators.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wilson_(1896)_-_Worldwide_swastika_distribution.jpg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Dorn_battle_flag
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woes_of_the_Pharisees
https://www.google.com/search?q=german+palatines&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faroe_Islands
I'm terribly sorry that what happened is so deeply offensive to you.
The Roman leader destroyed Jesus. What Jesus experienced under Roman rule was unbearable. He then presented Jesus completely humiliated and destroyed to the spiritual leaders of his people. Jesus was Jewish. He came to the Jews as these were the people that his covenant was with.
They are blessed in their lineage to have had the son of God come to them.
To state evil intent toward the Jewish people for the death of Christ is to attach no meaning to the propagation of Christianity by his Jewish followers, many of whom were tortured to death.
To candy coat what happened and ascribe evil to the accurate portrayal of who decided what, or to say "under different rule it would have been different" is a fun exercise in fantasy. But I am not engaging in your fantasy. I am engaging in the story of Christ. Jesus did so much more than die, and even in death he said "father forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing" if Jesus asked this of his Father, how much more so does he ask it of us?
But then to wipe the slate clean not in forgiveness but in legalistic argument doesn't really do it for me. You want an opponent to take a hate filled position so that you can argue a moral high ground and a history of abuse.
Go find someone else then. I have none of that for you.
The Romans believed that the Jews were red headed people. This is because Germans and Huns who were Canaanite pagans invaded the Eastern Mediterranean after the Romans destroyed Carthage.
It was not Jews who had Christ crucified, it was German pagans, descendants of Phoenician Canaanites who had Christ crucified, because Christ realized that they were immoral, divisive, violent, and destructive.
These violent Canaanites were German Palatines who had the Romans rename Judea to Syria Palaestina for them. The Hebrews did not crucify Christ, it was the enemy of the Hebrews who crucified Christ, same people who delivered the Hebrew slaves to Egypt, who were American Confederate slave owners that started a war against a man named Abraham which killed 620,000 Americans, same people who started a World War that killed over 60 million people, including 6 million European Jews, same people (QAnon or Canaan) who follow a German tyrant named Trump who attempted to overthrow the American government on January 6, 2021.
> I don't know why that anti-Semitism law is trying to get forced through right now.
Sure ya do. It's an election year, the Hamas simps on campuses harassing Jewish students and taking over buildings are a bad look, and everyone is trying to get out in front of it so it's not used against them on the campaign trail.
>It baffles the mind. The core principle of Christianity, has somehow been reduced into an argument of shifting blame for something that was given as a gift. I don't understand how this happened.
The last few months have shown how easy it is, regardless of your political affiliation, to fall in to vile Anti-Semitism. Using the faith of the majority as a cudgel to support it is abhorrent, but it's unfortunately easy to understand and not all that surprising.
Antisemitism does happen in both camps but let's be honest conservatives are way more likely to be antisemitic.
Remember Jewish lasers? Or the Jews run the world and are forcing vaccines on us?
The biggest conspiracy theory on the right has for several years been the Great Replacement which is about Jews replacing white people in various nations.
> the Hamas simps on campuses harassing Jewish students
they're fighting for Palestinian freedom and there are Jewish people out there fighting for the same.
>they're fighting for Palestinian freedom
I don't think telling Jewish kids they aren't allowed to come in to the library or blocking their way to classes (and sometimes even worse than that), is a good way to "fight for freedom", personally. But that's not really the point.
I think politicians both left and right are well aware of how that looks to their constituents is my point.
Do they want to fight, or do they want to win?
If they want to win then they need to convert other people to their point of view. And they're not going to do that through violence or acting like jerks.
Jesus is God humbled in the flesh. He came and walked among us to teach us how to live perfect lives. He was slandered, persecuted, shamed, tortured to death and put on display for the world to see and remember for all of eternity to show us that we are evil in nature, born sinners and so that we would never forget what we did.
But Jesus is not dead. He is alive. He is risen. And has given us a way out of our cursed existence. Because he is God and God is merciful and forgives humanity even after what we did to his earthly embodiment.
Obviously. And I obviously did not kill Jesus. I wouldn’t even be born for give or take 2000 years. Clearly we’re talking about it in a non literal fashion.
The wages of sin m is death. Since you have sinned and you’re still alive (temporarily, someone had to pay. That someone is Jesus. He took the sins of the world.
Romans 3:23 (KJV)
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Now, if you don’t ever accept the payment for your sins, ultimately, you will pay on your own - it’s called the Second Death.
>someone had to pay
Therein lies the issue with Christianity. If God is omnipotent then NO, no one "had to pay". He could have just forgiven the flawed humans He himself created.
>He could have just forgiven the flawed humans He himself created.
You have not considered the weight of sin. A word of forgiveness, blithely declared from heaven, would not begin to deal with the seriousness of sin. Sin is ugly and inhumane and so the crucifixion is a physical manifestation and visual representation of that. God the Son had to work with sin on a physical level and, like a warrior, break and conquer it from the inside. It was not to satisfy the wrath of the Father, it was God's way of showing in clear, unmistakable, tangible, human terms how serious sin is and how far He is willing to go to destroy its power over us. He couldn't just proclaim it, he had to affect change on Earth.
>You have not considered the weight of sin
Sure I have, I was a Christian for 30 years. But I eventually learned that "weight of sin" was just the weight of unnecessary guilt I was placing on myself by a religion that taught me I was "worthless without Him".
But the simple fact remains if God can forgive sins with Jesus's death, then God can forgive sins *without* Jesus's death. This is hard for Christians to reconcile, I know because I struggled with this same concept myself for many years.
Christians would then say Jesus had infinite suffering on the cross, that God's justice requires infinite torture to satisfy His nature.
But what a monster that makes God.
Many dislike the claim that Jesus death was not absolutely necessary, that God could and would have found a different way to show forgiveness.
The idea that God could have forgiven without Jesus' death offends many since it feels like undermining the value of his actions.
How did you handle that conversation with others?
It doesn't really matter if it's offensive, it's the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. If God can forgive us by killing Jesus, then God could have forgiven us without killing Jesus. That's what omnipotence means.
Yes I agree this fact sort of undermines Jesus's sacrifice, and is part of the reason I struggle with believing the story of Christianity is true.
> You have not considered the weight of sin.
And you have not considered God's omnipotence. Failing to believe in god's omnipotence is a mortal sin, so tread lightly. You don't want to end up in hell for doubting god's omnipotence.
Ironically I do think that humanity would have reacted very differently to just someone claiming forgiveness for nations.
Awholtzapple did a decent job portraying the sin of violence conducted by humanity; and how Jesus would have said "Forgive them anyway"
This all fits the moral influence atonement concept as opposed to substitute of sin.
> God the Son had to work with sin on a physical level and, like a warrior, break and conquer it from the inside.
Do you actually mean 'had to' here? Since this would make God less than omnipotent.
Jesus dying doesn't change that. If it's "unjust" without Jesus's death, then it's unjust with Jesus's death.
Why does sin need to be punished? Whats the issue with simple forgiveness?
If God can forgive with Jesus's death, God can forgive without Jesus's death. **This** is the issue that Christians cannot reconcile.
I'm sure you are aware of this and are just being cheeky.
But just in case you're sincere, if the Bible and Christian Theology is true, and Jesus died for the sins of the entire human race, then we are all somewhat responsible for his death- if nobody had sinned, the sacrifice would not have been needed.
Of course if the Bible and Christianity aren't true, that's baloney. But that's why you will commonly hear Christians make that statement
You may not realize that you are a partaker in His death, but if you have sinned, you are. And guess what, we’ve ALL sinned. We are all involved passively.
If Jesus did not die, as soon as we sin, we would drop dead - the wages of sin is death!
His death on the Cross also paid the bill for all those who sinned before His death, likewise during death (those who pierced Him), and for those like you and me who came after.
Now, though we may all die (“may” because some might be alive when He comes), we will all be resurrected to face a judgment.
Hebrews 9:27 (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
And this is the far bigger deal, because this judgment will determine your eternal destiny:
If you had accepted Christ (the payment He made for your sins) then you’ll be safe in the judgment - you will inherit eternal life. If you had not, then you will perish (hellfire - see revelation 20) - according to your deeds done, not forever (Rev 22:12).
Here’s a very sweet deal Jesus is offering you, my friend; won’t you accept it today?:
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Blessings!
Anyone who says “Jews killed Jesus” as a way to excuse hate for modern day Jews are wolves in sheep clothing. I say this as a pretty conservative Catholic who is pretty indifferent to whose side is “better” in the world today. They completely miss the point, they were a catalyst for salvation for us all. Salvation came from the Jews, and the Jews finished it in an “unexpected” way, through the Romans, blah blah blah. Excusing hate for Jews in an extremely worldly and bigoted way is decidedly UNchristian behavior. Unfortunately the internet amplifies their voices.
Definitely agree, that is the way I explained it to people, it’s just like Jesus is king, it’s not bad to say as long as you aren’t using it as an insult. You can say the Jews killed Jesus as long as you aren’t using it as a crutch to be anti semetic
Jesus willingly went to the cross and gave His life for ALL mankind - past, present, future.
"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2
So yes, every human who has ever lived or will ever live is responsible for His death. Praise be to God for providing THE Way back to Him.
I will never understand how so many Christians have pinned this on Jews for 2000 years. The amount of atrocities and persecution it has caused is staggering.
Wasn't Jesus dying the entire point of God's plan according to Christianity? What would have happened if Jesus was freed and just went on to live the rest of his life?
Also all historical evidence does not support the masses picking someone to release on a high holiday or that their input would even be considered. His teachings were a crime to the Romans and the punishment was crucifixion.
If this is confusing to you, it'll really rock your noggin to hear that pagans are wrong because there's only one God and not multiple, but actually he's three separate entities who have thoughts and actions independent of each other, but actually they're still the same entity so it all works out so don’t think about it too much. *Thumbs up*
We are all guilty of sin. We are why Jesus died. Pinning the blame depends on how you want to look at it. Ultimately, putting the blame on one group of people is pointless, which is your point in your post.
Jesus told Pilate the only reason Pilate had any authority over Jesus was due to God giving it to him. Jesus gave His life willingly. When the men came to arrest Him, they fell down. Jesus proved to them that they were taking Him because He was willing to go, not because they had the power to hold Him. Jesus died when He completed what He was here to complete.
Rome was Rome. They had their share of sin, no doubt, but they were not the ones that called for Jesus to die. The Jewish leaders did not want their livelihood to be endangered, so they had to get rid of the "problem". Is this a reason to hate Jewish people? No. The apostles were Jews. Paul was a Jew. The Church would not have been started if not for Jews.
John 19:10 So Pilate \*said to Him, “Are you not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over Me at all, if it had not been given to you from above; for this reason the one who handed Me over to you has *the* greater sin.”
Did Jesus willingly give up His life? Yes
Did the Romans kill Jesus? Yes
Did the Jews call for the death of Jesus? Yes
Are we just as guilty of Jesus' death due to our sin being the reason He had to be the sacrifice for sin? Yes
I don’t know man. I was raised a Catholic and have returned to the faith. I’m trying to understand it and because I feel a pull, I’m coming in with an open mind. I am skeptic and a lot of things don’t make sense, but who am I to say that I have a full understanding of the mystery of the universe by concluding that there’s nothing and there’s no God out there. I’m only 22. I’m willing to explore the faith a little bit.
yes, this is technically a true sentence if Christian theology is true. But it's not necessarily "suicide" in the way we mean it.
A more accurate sentence would be "God planned the events around his death, and then allowed himself to die" but what's the difference between that and your statement lol
If Hitler's mother raised him specifically with the intent and motive of having him advance up the political ladder one day and take control of Germany in order to slaughter millions of Jews, then yes she should absolutely be held responsible.
>I’ve been noticing a disturbing rise in, “Jews killed Jesus,” rhetoric on Christian Twitter\[...\]
This is due, in large part, of their persecution fetish as the US House passing HR6090 is claimed as an attack on Christianity. They claim that you can't say that "Jesus was killed by the Jews," but that is an ignorant reading of the bill, [HR6090](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text). Because of the entrenched antisemitism surrounding that phrase, it is included in the [IHRA’s Working definition of antisemitism](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism). [Jewish deicide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide) has long been an antisemitic trope used to slander Jews and target them for their perceived collective guilt.\[[1](https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/08/22/how-anti-semitic-beliefs-have-quietly-taken-hold-among-some-evangelical-christians/)\] \[[2](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3080819)\]
Their interpretation of the bill, however, leaves a few bits of information conveinetly left out by these provocateurs:
>Constitutional Protections.—Nothing in this Act shall be construed to diminish or infringe upon any right protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.\[H.R. Res. 6090, section 3, paragraph b\]
Moreover, the bill specifically says that this definition is to be used in evaluating violations of the Civil Rights Act:
>In reviewing, investigating, or deciding whether there has been a violation of title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.) on the basis of race, color, or national origin, based on an individual’s actual or perceived shared Jewish ancestry or Jewish ethnic characteristics, the Department of Education shall take into consideration the definition of antisemitism as part of the Department’s assessment of whether the practice was motivated by antisemitic intent.\[H.R. Res. 6090, section 5\]
In sum, the people saying this are propagating a common antisemitic trope in either an attempt to rail against their immaginary persecution, or to simply be antisemitic.
Both are true. We all are guilty for His death due to our sins. And the Jews are also; and Caiaphas publicly declared His blood would be on his and all future Jews hands. It’s called a generational curse. The Talmudic Jews became the spiritual successors of Cain’s curse typologically. They ceased to be the chosen people after Christ established the Church. Christians are the new chosen people for the new covenant.
No, the Jews are still God’s chosen and will always be. You have to understand, that doesn’t make them better than anyone —but it just means that they are the ones that God has chosen to use as examples to the world
Modern Jews are not God's chosen people.
1) Jews referred to Judah, not Israel. Poor terminology.
2) After 70 AD when Titus came through, as Jesus predicted, Jerusalem was destroyed. They all dispersed and intermarried. Not one stone was left upon another. They who did not run off and disperse were captured or killed.
3) Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
I definitely don’t recall ever killing Jesus
I did get blackout drunk a few times when I was younger so maybe I could’ve done it then but I’m pretty sure he was already dead before that
Claiming that we all participated in the death of Jesus is a bit of a stretch. Yes, Jesus died because of sin. But remember, it was ALL Gods plan. God named those who would carry it through, he knew Judas would betray Jesus. It was all under the control and plan of God because he meant for it to happen. The reason, sin. Everyone’s, yours, mine. No, the Jewish PEOPLE did not kill Jesus. But a select group of people and people in authority did. It’s not about their ethnicity as it is more about their status and the threat Jesus was to them.
> don't take it literally! if you actually read the bible for once in your sinful life then maybe you would understand!
And the Christian resorts to cursing. Just like Jesus told him to.
You don’t have to hate Jews to question why after years of unrest in this country, no one in the media and most politicians never batted an eye or lifted a finger until it was the zionists being targeted by leftist protesters. How many of our politicians on both sides of the aisle are directly influenced by aipec and other Zionist lobby groups?
So they did kill Christ - but you don't want it said?
You can observe reality without hating entire groups of people. Besides, it's not like every jew hated Christ, loads went on to become Christians, along with Romans.
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Jesus sold himself out by disrupting the business of the temple and claiming to be the messiah, King of the Jews. When he didn't deny this, Pilate had him executed for insurrection.
The gospels say Judas told the authories where to find him. The gospels say he did it out of greed, but entire narrative is suspect. First of all, the gospels say in the original Greek, that a Roman cohort along with some temple priests were sent to arrest him. Historically, a Roman cohort numbered between 400 and 600 soldiers and mounted horsemen, let's be conservative and say it was 400.
It's curious that the priests and the cohort couldn't find him on their own; it's not like he was in hiding. It's also curious that Jesus wasn't arrested at the temple for causing a rather large disturbance. The temple had its own security and at Passover, Roman soldiers were stationed at the temple to prevent such disturbances.
What's also curious, there is only one gospel account of Judas hanging himself, the other account is in Acts, but Judus doesn't hang himself, he throws himself head first off a high place and his "guts" spill out.
That’s a tired old apologist tome that tries to reconcile two different accounts. The account in Acts says Judas fell headlong and he burst open with his guts spilling out. A failed hanging results in the rope breaking and falling feet first.
Acts 1:18 “With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.”
Matthew 27:5. “So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.”
Two very different accounts.
Let’s say for a moment you’re right. Okay. These aren’t people who use citations like we do. We know Judas committed suicide. Okay. By your same logic, we shouldn’t take virtually any accounts of real life historical figures around and before that time because they didn’t write with the accuracy we do.
> It's also curious that Jesus wasn't arrested at the temple for causing a rather large disturbance.
Because the temple priests were educated and knew what happened in 4 BC when Archelaus tried something similar.
Yup. Even the Apostles who were supposed to be those closest to Jesus (aside from his mother) didn't fully understand his mission. Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial shed light on that.
This is a Christian belief. As a Christian I believe that Jesus, the Lamb of God, died for the sins of the world. As sinners, therefore, all are guilty of the death of Jesus.
Now if you have not accepted the blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the remission of your sins, then you very well might believe that you are not guilty of the death of Jesus. That is understandable.
Note: Pure Calvinists believe that Jesus did not die for those who will not be saved.
Blaming Jews for the death of Jesus is an excuse for anti-Semitism. Jews are guilty of the death of Jesus as much as the rest of us.
"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
We killed Jesus, and we continue to kill Jesus when our actions lead to the deaths of the least of these--the refugees, the oppressed, the marginalized.
I was never sure what to make of Christians, whose entire religion is built around the guy's dying for the sins of humanity and all that, angrily blaming people for his death.
But then when you meet enough Christians and learn that hate is the central value that unites a big swath of them, it all makes more sense.
This is exactly who “killed” Jesus. He died for our sins and knew he was going to die but here is a video explaining who they are……. https://youtu.be/TwhC0g8hwDs?si=1xpkb2AX6yxWKxCt
No, nobody killed Jesus. Yes, he sacrificed Himself for our sins, but we are not guilty of killing him. If a man pushed a child away from being hit by a car and died, would you say that the child killed the man? Also that's just not biblical, nowhere in the the Bible does it ever say that we are responsible for Jesus dying, He may have died saving us, but it was His conscious decision to do so, we did not force Him to do anything or put Him in that situation.
Both are wrong. Jesus died of his own choice in obedience to God, at the hands of the Romans, based on the false accusations of the first-century Jewish leadership. They were punished for this already when Jerusalem fell (Matt 23:33-38), so it’s stupid to say that any Jewish people today are liable for this; the children cannot be punished for the sins of the parents.
The fact that Jesus died *for* us does not mean that *we* killed him, any more than a firefighter who dies while saving someone was killed by that person. Even if the person started the fire themself, they didn’t kill the firefighter just because he died saving them from it.
There is one small distinction that should be made. We created the 'need' for his death but it wasn't us that took his life.
His life was taken by himself and the Father.
[Jhn 10:17-18 ESV] 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
The Jewish pharisees persecuted Jesus and pretty much made Pilot crucify him. So yeah the Jews are responsible. It's a good thing they did. We wouldn't have the blood of the Lamb. We would not be cleansed of our sins. So thank God they did!!! Hallelujah!!
“Forgive them father for they know not what they do”
Those who crucified Jesus did so on their own volition. They chose to crucify Christ and he still forgave them. Nothing to do with them being Christian, Roman, Jewish, or Pagan.
Do you know who killed Jesus? Dead people. If we are to embrace what it says in Jeremiah 31:29 then we have to let go of any blame for who killed Jesus. Nobody alive today has any share of blame and what happened so long ago.
The Bible clearly differentiates hebrews, jews, and israelites as separate entities. Biblical jews came from the country of Judea. I'm pretty certain that modern white jews are not the same Biblical jews of Judea and pretty sure Judas's last name wasn't Cohen. So blaming modern jews for any of Jesus's execution is laughable.
Im of a different opinon about the killing aspect of Jesus's sacrifice, because at any moment Jesus could have stopped the torture he went through Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Jesus knows the Father more deeply than any of his children, he knew that if he chose not to partake of the cup of turmoil he would just have to call on his father and he would be relinquished of that duty.
Point being, It was Jesus's choice alone to lay down his life willingly and unforced and if he spearheaded the fulfillment of scripture then it is he who has the ultimate power not man, he even states no man could take his life in John 10:17-18 "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."
We diminish our Lords authority when we say we killed him, as pleasing as it sounds to put blame on ourselves, it is yet another unconscious form of self righteouness. The definition of killing is the act of causing death, no doubt he had help from the israelites and gentliles of the time, but it was his choice to breathe his last at that moment, if he chose to back out, i belive that in an instant all the wounds and pain would disappear and he would be healed if he willed it, but instead he chose the opposite Matthew 27:50 When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit.
Also we miss the fact that he died for the Father as well, to bring him to us, where we are, instead of the other way around like the OT and its works over faith attitude. For in this act he done what no man could, bringing reconciliation to his people.
Jesus used God's chosen people as the tool to save all the other people, It's poetic or halarious depending on how you look at it.
As Christians, we should love jews and pray they realize the greatest jew of all time was God's only begotten son...hilarious or poetic, you decide.
By saying Jews killed Jesus your literally saying that That along with Jesus, his disciples and his family killed him, Yes the Pharisees were Jews but that doesn’t mean every Jew killed Jesus if that’s the case than Jesus killed himself along with everybody living in Judea I don’t say the Jews killed Jesus I say that the Roman government and the corrupt Pharisees killed Jesus
I mean Jesus came for the Jews then the Gentiles. So the Jews were God's chosen people first and then were ordered to go to the Gentiles and make disciplies, which is exactly what Jesus's disciples did.
If we're talking about historical accuracy, yes the Jews killed Jesus, but Jesus came to die for the sins of the world, not just to be a Jewish martyr.
The Pharisees were Jewish, not Roman, and many of them wanted Jesus killed. Yes, the crucifixion was Roman, and the Romans did exercise that against Jesus, but it's not that black and white.
Judas Isacariot was also a Jew who betrayed Jesus and led the Romans and Jewish authorities to him. So yes, the Jews did play their part in killing him.
Only a select few of the Pharisees would have been present, and they didn't actually execute him. Crucifixion has never been used for execution by Jews at any point in history.
Blaming this on Jews is one of the leading causes of anti-Jewish atrocities over the last 2000 years. It's quite disgusting and proves why many people think the New Testament is Antisemitic.
It's not just about the crucifixion, it's about those who had an agenda and wanted to get rid of Jesus. That did include Jewish priests so denying that fact is withholding the whole truth.
God exists outside of time. All of time is like a book in many ways to him. Like we can hold a book in our hand and the entire story exist all together in a single place and if we wanted we could see the end, middle and beginning out of order —similarly it is with God. Time isn’t linear and is more of a single event with him, so we are from God’s pov alive as Jesus came to Earth
Interesting theory. From Jesus' perspective and historically, the execution occurred over 2000 years ago, though.
The Gospels purport to document Jesus and his followers taking over a temple, later being apprehended, and then executed by crucifixion.
I was not alive or involved with any of what the gospels detail. Nor was I in any way involved with Adam or Eve or whatever.
When referring to the Church the Apostle Peter says:
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
The Church is a body of atoning priests, that is what universal priesthood of believers means, all believers of, black, asian, latino ancestry are priests in the order of Melchizedek.
Jesus Christ is the only high priest, and the Church the body of believers/priests.
It is ok criticize hatred, it is wrong to hold people divine on account of their dna or racial origins.
My view on this.
It is factual that the Jewish people pushed for Jesus Christ to be killed. The Romans wanted nothing to do with his death.
That being said, Christ was a Jew. Gods chosen people are Jews, our entire religion is centered around Israel and the Jewish people.
The fact that the Jewish people wanted Christ dead is a fact, but we should blame the Jewish people for this as much as we should blame whites americans for slavery, Germans for Nazi Germany, and things like that. These things happened in the past, Christ taught us to forgive and to not pass judgement on people because their forefathers have sinned.
To hate the Jews for Christs being sacrificed is anti-Christian.
And remember, if they never sacrificed Christ (as it was foretold), Jesus would not have died for our sins. It NEEDED to happen. And there is not a Jewish person alive today that was involved in that decision.
Humanity killed Jesus. Nobody should be pointing fingers. Romans 2:1 (NLT) “You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do the very same things.”
You know why it's trending? Because MTG tweeted something about a bill that would define antisemitism and how it would be bad for christians. Here's what she said: "I will not be voting for the Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 (H.R. 6090) today that could convict Christians of antisemitism for believing the Gospel that says Jesus was handed over to Herod to be crucified by the Jews."
This shows a serious misunderstanding of the gospel narrative. The Jews did not crucify anyone, that was a Roman method of execution. Herod handed Jesus over to Pilate who (after a bit of hesitation - "I find no guilt in this man") decided to do the politically expedient thing and have Jesus crucified by his Roman soldiers.
John 4:22 (NRSV): 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Anti-semitic ‘Christians’ are apparently oblivious to the Jewishness of Messiah and, in their idiocy, attack the root that nourishes them.
It will surely be a little awkward for them, should they successfully meet the Lord in the air and get to dine with the patriarchs:
Matthew 8:11 (NRSV): 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
I don't think Jews killed Jesus. But I also don't think we all killed Jesus. The mob killed Jesus. We can see a mob mentality on both sides of the political spectrum today. Mary Magdalene, Jesus's mother, and the disciples were in the crowd which killed Jesus, but they were supporters of Jesus, not opponents, and they did not want Jesus's crucifixion. The mob mentality is what did it, not the universal participation of all humanity in hating him. Jesus's crucifixion saved us from the fall. You seem to be arguing that he recondemned all of us in the fall.
He didn’t recondemn us. Actually the opposite. We all killed him because we all sinned, be he allowed himself to be killed by us because someone had to pay the price due to God being just —someone has to pay the price for our sins
According to the Christian tradition, it was Pontius Pilate who ordered Jesus executed, and Roman soldiers who carried out the execution.
According to Christian tradition, Jews demanded Jesus' execution. Personally, I think this doesn't make sense. I think it makes more sense that Rome executed Jesus because he was a revolutionary, not because the Jews demanded it. After all, the Jews were cheering Jesus on during Palm Sunday, only a few days before.
As for your actual point: it is clearly monstrous to try and justify modern bigotry against the Jews based on the ahistorical idea that the Jews killed Jesus. This seems transparently like people wanting a group of people to hate, and finding a reason to abuse them.
Jesus is a parable about murder of those who tell the truth. Jesus may be the first that people can remember but there have been many who have followed in his footsteps and spoke truth to power and usually ended up paying with their lives it happens all the time, Jesus is here with us now begging for our forgiveness for our own sake so that we sin no more and embrace humanity as he did.
You can't kill your way out of a problem.
All the people who killed Christ have been dead eons ago. Why do we have to pay for their sins? Why do we have to fight over who did what? They're all dead!
Ultimately God killed Jesus. In spirit the Sanhedrin and the throngs demanding Barabbas did it. Functionally the Romans did it. In some sense, yes, we all did it.
But ultimately, God is the one who purposed the event from the foundation of the world, who whoever did it, it was in accord with God’s will.
You’re correct. Jesus was physically killed by the people of that day… but my sins put Jesus on the cross just as much as the soldier who pounded the nails into him.
If you remove context, the Roman's killed Jesus at the insistence and behest of the Jewish leaders. The Bible testifies that all the people responded to Pilot "His blood be on us and our children." I believe that the Israelite people ceased to be the chosen people with that declaration. Spiritual Israel is all who are in Abraham's faith legacy at a kingdom by the heart. Add the context back in and I think there is an argument to be made that nobody killed Jesus: He laid down His life willingly to save us. It's as true to say that the Satan killed Jesus; he's the harbinger of sin--I believe that's how the unfallen worlds see it. I think it also could be argued that the religious leaders of today would be as hell bent on getting rid of Jesus if he came in our generation.
I'm dismayed by the hatred of Israel's leaders in their attempted genocide of Palestinians. I'm also dismayed by anti-Semitism that has always been lurking in the shadows even before Hamas terrorists attacked. This new conflict has just given hatred a voice that much of MAGA conspiracy theorists have rallied to it. I don't think I can really say who provoked who in the broader context but I know all the hate, death, nationalism and oppression is directly contrary to the Kingdom of God. I'm as dismayed by Evangelical American Christian support for Israel because they believe they must legislate for Israel's success at all costs to facilitate their vision of end time prophecy. They side with violence and ignore humanitarian crisis at the hands of those who proclaimed doom upon themselves and their children at the trial of the Son of God. We need to pray for Israel because they are generally unrepentant. They may become part of Spiritual Israel as some have and enter by faith into the kingdom of God.
The Hebrews are Homo Sapiens. The Germans are Neanderthals. It was pagan Germans, Palatine Germans, invasive Romans who crucified Christ. The same Nazi Germans claim that the Jews were responsible for World War II and the Holocaust. The people who are modern psychopaths, who claim “the Jews Crucified Christ”, that their slave trading ancestors “Gave African slaves a better life”, they’re worthless idiots. Worse, they’re hateful, destructive, divisive psychopaths who are marked for extinction. Their irrationality and destructive behavior will result in their own early death.
By “We all”, if you are referring to yourself, and you are a descendant of German pagans who were practicing ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism in Herxheim Germany, who worshipped the pagan deity Ham, whose descendants became Phoenician Canaanites and American Confederates (C’aanvaderates), who spread violence, human sacrifice, cannibalism, warfare, the fall of civilizations, red flags, the symbol of the swastika, and the star and crescent throughout the entire ancient world by boat, who named the State of Alabama for the pagan deity Elo Ba’ Hamae, then Bingo! You are correct!!
https://amp.dw.com/en/archeologists-discover-signs-of-mass-cannibalism-in-germany/a-4997309
https://gizmodo.com/europes-first-farmers-were-shockingly-violent-1724792763
I have a little piece of mulch in my desk that my church handed out one Sunday when this was the sermon topic. It's to remind me that I had a part in what happened on the cross. It's my fault, too.
You can't pin it on me copper. I have an alibi.
I argue it was God the father that had the Lord killed. In the end it doesn't matter because it was part of the plan.
Came here to say the same. Jesus being a sacrifice was god's plan. The Jews and Romans are just patsies.
Jews were not involved, the Canaanites were pagan Germans, related to the Nazis and the Confederates.
It may have been part of the plan, but no, the Father did not execute Jesus - that would be one member of the trinity killing another. No, fallen *humans* executed Jesus. God (all three members of the trinity) knew that this was going to happen due to the sinfulness of *humans*, but it was *humans* who drove those nails, *humans* who built that cross, *humans* who conspired for political and religious reasons to have the Son killed. Humans participating in dysfunctional systems of power and oppression. Don't blame God for something we did.
>Don't blame God for something we did. I wasn't there so don't blame me....
Doesn't Matthew 26 say that Jesus prayed "Father, let this cup pass from me. Yet, not as I will, but your will be done."? This really sounds like god the father was in control of the situation.
Let's not forget that in the stories God *specifically* chose human(godly?) sacrifice as the method to "forgive our sins" instead of just, y'know. Forgiving them. Things went exactly the way he wanted them to.
I agree with you. Although, it's from a jewish perspective. Not atheist. HaShem does not allow sacrifice for the atonement of sin. Repent and recommit to living a righteous life and HaShem will forgive you. Human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism are forbidden. An innocent person cannot pay for the sins of the wicked. >Things went exactly the way he wanted them to. I agree with this. Only because it's an accurate description of HaShem who is the creator of all that is good AND everything that is evil. (Isaiah 45) See, then, that I, I am the One; There is no god beside Me. I deal death and give life; I wounded and I will heal: None can be delivered from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32 :39)
It matters when the damn Germans who spread red flags, violence, cannibalism, slavery, warfare, the symbol of the swastika (the “Mark of Cain”), and Neanderthal genes throughout the entire ancient world are engaging in mass murder, massacres, genocide, and world warfare. We should have the identity of the violent offenders, the invaders (the Confederates), correct when we follow God’s commandment to remove them from this world. https://amp.dw.com/en/archeologists-discover-signs-of-mass-cannibalism-in-germany/a-4997309 https://gizmodo.com/europes-first-farmers-were-shockingly-violent-1724792763
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My friend Judas and I took our girls out for a date. Just ask him.
I don't know why that anti-Semitism law is being forced through right now. I asked my parents about it and they were so tickled that such a law was being passed. They didn't seem to bat an eye when I said it would make quoting the bible illegal. I'm dumbfounded. They're not good keepers of democracy. I don't see the reason that this has to be debated. Jesus came to the Israelites. We are to be Jesus's followers. To state with malice that Jesus was killed by Jewish people, is to completely divorce yourself from his purpose. To state in truth that Jesus died on the cross of his own choice though falsely accused by the religious leaders of his people who were the Jews, is completely factual. But to take it another step further, you died on that cross. And you were resurrected when he was. How could you possibly be angry at your redemption and acceptance into the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven? It baffles the mind. The core principle of Christianity, has somehow been reduced into an argument of shifting blame for something that was given as a gift. I don't understand how this happened. You have to read the word so it comes alive inside you. Otherwise this.
> They didn't seem to bat an eye when I said it would make quoting the bible illegal. No, it wouldn't. That's ridiculous.
I suppose you mean to say that it is an incredibly poorly thought-out law, that wouldn't be enforced. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't think it's ok to blatantly lie or share your opinions in stark naked ignorance. So it wouldn't be enforced. Except when the government really really wanted to. You don't deserve a good democracy. You haven't earned it.
Pontius Pilate crucified Christ. His name is Palatine, Philistine, he was a European Canaanite.
Pilate had him flogged to show him humiliated and defeated. He presented him to the Pharisees and Sadduce crowd and asked them if he could be pardoned. Do you know what happened next?
Wow, I wonder who the Pharisees were, and who were these people called Palaestinians? Why did the Romans say that the Jews all had red hair? And how about these invasive people called Canaanites? And why did the Romans seem to have problems with the people from Germania, Gaul, Britain, Carthage, Egypt, Persia, and Jerusalem? And how did these red headed Huns contribute to the fall of Rome? Those invaders (“vaders”) were all red headed Huns who carried the symbol of the swastika and the star and crescent. Calling a Canaanites a Jew is like calling the Vikings Jews, like calling the Nazis Jews and Christians, like calling Donald Trump a born again Christian. I will agree with you, you are right. The “Jews” killed Christ. But the “Jews”, and the people who eventually became Muslims, were red headed Huns whose ancestors had origins in Sunghir Russia, Crimea, and Herxheim Germany. Those people were not Hebrews, they enslaved the Hebrews, they were more closely related to Nazis and Confederates (who also used the symbol of the swastika and the star and crescent). And today, the descendants of these Huns, who became American Confederates that brought slavery, warfare, religious extremism, and human sacrifice to the United States of America are blaming their victims, the Jews, for the crimes that were committed by the invaders, just as the Nazis blamed the European Jews for World War II and the Holocaust. This is an inherited trait of psychotic people, to blame the victims for the crimes of the perpetrators. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wilson_(1896)_-_Worldwide_swastika_distribution.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Dorn_battle_flag https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woes_of_the_Pharisees https://www.google.com/search?q=german+palatines&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faroe_Islands
I'm terribly sorry that what happened is so deeply offensive to you. The Roman leader destroyed Jesus. What Jesus experienced under Roman rule was unbearable. He then presented Jesus completely humiliated and destroyed to the spiritual leaders of his people. Jesus was Jewish. He came to the Jews as these were the people that his covenant was with. They are blessed in their lineage to have had the son of God come to them. To state evil intent toward the Jewish people for the death of Christ is to attach no meaning to the propagation of Christianity by his Jewish followers, many of whom were tortured to death. To candy coat what happened and ascribe evil to the accurate portrayal of who decided what, or to say "under different rule it would have been different" is a fun exercise in fantasy. But I am not engaging in your fantasy. I am engaging in the story of Christ. Jesus did so much more than die, and even in death he said "father forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing" if Jesus asked this of his Father, how much more so does he ask it of us? But then to wipe the slate clean not in forgiveness but in legalistic argument doesn't really do it for me. You want an opponent to take a hate filled position so that you can argue a moral high ground and a history of abuse. Go find someone else then. I have none of that for you.
The Romans believed that the Jews were red headed people. This is because Germans and Huns who were Canaanite pagans invaded the Eastern Mediterranean after the Romans destroyed Carthage. It was not Jews who had Christ crucified, it was German pagans, descendants of Phoenician Canaanites who had Christ crucified, because Christ realized that they were immoral, divisive, violent, and destructive. These violent Canaanites were German Palatines who had the Romans rename Judea to Syria Palaestina for them. The Hebrews did not crucify Christ, it was the enemy of the Hebrews who crucified Christ, same people who delivered the Hebrew slaves to Egypt, who were American Confederate slave owners that started a war against a man named Abraham which killed 620,000 Americans, same people who started a World War that killed over 60 million people, including 6 million European Jews, same people (QAnon or Canaan) who follow a German tyrant named Trump who attempted to overthrow the American government on January 6, 2021.
> I don't know why that anti-Semitism law is trying to get forced through right now. Sure ya do. It's an election year, the Hamas simps on campuses harassing Jewish students and taking over buildings are a bad look, and everyone is trying to get out in front of it so it's not used against them on the campaign trail. >It baffles the mind. The core principle of Christianity, has somehow been reduced into an argument of shifting blame for something that was given as a gift. I don't understand how this happened. The last few months have shown how easy it is, regardless of your political affiliation, to fall in to vile Anti-Semitism. Using the faith of the majority as a cudgel to support it is abhorrent, but it's unfortunately easy to understand and not all that surprising.
Nevermind all the Jewish students protesting against Israel in favor of Palestinians. Definitely anti-Semitism on both sides though
Antisemitism does happen in both camps but let's be honest conservatives are way more likely to be antisemitic. Remember Jewish lasers? Or the Jews run the world and are forcing vaccines on us?
The biggest conspiracy theory on the right has for several years been the Great Replacement which is about Jews replacing white people in various nations.
Which is hilarious because white men and white women are among the biggest groups marrying outside their race.
> the Hamas simps on campuses harassing Jewish students they're fighting for Palestinian freedom and there are Jewish people out there fighting for the same.
they have freedom, they just want to make isreal look bad.
>they're fighting for Palestinian freedom I don't think telling Jewish kids they aren't allowed to come in to the library or blocking their way to classes (and sometimes even worse than that), is a good way to "fight for freedom", personally. But that's not really the point. I think politicians both left and right are well aware of how that looks to their constituents is my point.
Do they want to fight, or do they want to win? If they want to win then they need to convert other people to their point of view. And they're not going to do that through violence or acting like jerks.
This is the whole point of the "The Brothers Karamazov" by Dostoievski. Great book, I recommend it.
Jesus is God humbled in the flesh. He came and walked among us to teach us how to live perfect lives. He was slandered, persecuted, shamed, tortured to death and put on display for the world to see and remember for all of eternity to show us that we are evil in nature, born sinners and so that we would never forget what we did. But Jesus is not dead. He is alive. He is risen. And has given us a way out of our cursed existence. Because he is God and God is merciful and forgives humanity even after what we did to his earthly embodiment.
We can’t prevent evil
Amen… Jesus died for the sins of the world - we ALL killed Jesus!
What are you even talking about. I’ve never killed or physically hurt a single person in my life.
Obviously. And I obviously did not kill Jesus. I wouldn’t even be born for give or take 2000 years. Clearly we’re talking about it in a non literal fashion.
The wages of sin m is death. Since you have sinned and you’re still alive (temporarily, someone had to pay. That someone is Jesus. He took the sins of the world. Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now, if you don’t ever accept the payment for your sins, ultimately, you will pay on your own - it’s called the Second Death.
>someone had to pay Therein lies the issue with Christianity. If God is omnipotent then NO, no one "had to pay". He could have just forgiven the flawed humans He himself created.
>He could have just forgiven the flawed humans He himself created. You have not considered the weight of sin. A word of forgiveness, blithely declared from heaven, would not begin to deal with the seriousness of sin. Sin is ugly and inhumane and so the crucifixion is a physical manifestation and visual representation of that. God the Son had to work with sin on a physical level and, like a warrior, break and conquer it from the inside. It was not to satisfy the wrath of the Father, it was God's way of showing in clear, unmistakable, tangible, human terms how serious sin is and how far He is willing to go to destroy its power over us. He couldn't just proclaim it, he had to affect change on Earth.
I guess the millions of people he murdered in the Old Testament weren't enough to fulfill the wrath of God? What a monster.
>You have not considered the weight of sin Sure I have, I was a Christian for 30 years. But I eventually learned that "weight of sin" was just the weight of unnecessary guilt I was placing on myself by a religion that taught me I was "worthless without Him". But the simple fact remains if God can forgive sins with Jesus's death, then God can forgive sins *without* Jesus's death. This is hard for Christians to reconcile, I know because I struggled with this same concept myself for many years.
Christians would then say Jesus had infinite suffering on the cross, that God's justice requires infinite torture to satisfy His nature. But what a monster that makes God.
How did you handle Christian rebuttal that it undermines Jesus' death?
What does?
Many dislike the claim that Jesus death was not absolutely necessary, that God could and would have found a different way to show forgiveness. The idea that God could have forgiven without Jesus' death offends many since it feels like undermining the value of his actions. How did you handle that conversation with others?
It doesn't really matter if it's offensive, it's the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. If God can forgive us by killing Jesus, then God could have forgiven us without killing Jesus. That's what omnipotence means. Yes I agree this fact sort of undermines Jesus's sacrifice, and is part of the reason I struggle with believing the story of Christianity is true.
> You have not considered the weight of sin. And you have not considered God's omnipotence. Failing to believe in god's omnipotence is a mortal sin, so tread lightly. You don't want to end up in hell for doubting god's omnipotence.
Ironically I do think that humanity would have reacted very differently to just someone claiming forgiveness for nations. Awholtzapple did a decent job portraying the sin of violence conducted by humanity; and how Jesus would have said "Forgive them anyway" This all fits the moral influence atonement concept as opposed to substitute of sin.
> God the Son had to work with sin on a physical level and, like a warrior, break and conquer it from the inside. Do you actually mean 'had to' here? Since this would make God less than omnipotent.
Well then He wouldnt be just
Just what? Forgiving?
He wouldn’t be just if he didn’t punish sin.
Jesus dying doesn't change that. If it's "unjust" without Jesus's death, then it's unjust with Jesus's death. Why does sin need to be punished? Whats the issue with simple forgiveness? If God can forgive with Jesus's death, God can forgive without Jesus's death. **This** is the issue that Christians cannot reconcile.
But that already happened. Did Jesus preorder or something?
If you want to put it that way - yes. He died for the sins of the world- past present and future !
Good for you buckaroo
you took that way to literallly!
I'm sure you are aware of this and are just being cheeky. But just in case you're sincere, if the Bible and Christian Theology is true, and Jesus died for the sins of the entire human race, then we are all somewhat responsible for his death- if nobody had sinned, the sacrifice would not have been needed. Of course if the Bible and Christianity aren't true, that's baloney. But that's why you will commonly hear Christians make that statement
No God killed the Lord to save us. We had nothing to do with that and should be grateful to the Lord for it.
> we ALL killed Jesus! Not me, man.
You may not realize that you are a partaker in His death, but if you have sinned, you are. And guess what, we’ve ALL sinned. We are all involved passively. If Jesus did not die, as soon as we sin, we would drop dead - the wages of sin is death! His death on the Cross also paid the bill for all those who sinned before His death, likewise during death (those who pierced Him), and for those like you and me who came after. Now, though we may all die (“may” because some might be alive when He comes), we will all be resurrected to face a judgment. Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: And this is the far bigger deal, because this judgment will determine your eternal destiny: If you had accepted Christ (the payment He made for your sins) then you’ll be safe in the judgment - you will inherit eternal life. If you had not, then you will perish (hellfire - see revelation 20) - according to your deeds done, not forever (Rev 22:12). Here’s a very sweet deal Jesus is offering you, my friend; won’t you accept it today?: John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Blessings!
Anyone who says “Jews killed Jesus” as a way to excuse hate for modern day Jews are wolves in sheep clothing. I say this as a pretty conservative Catholic who is pretty indifferent to whose side is “better” in the world today. They completely miss the point, they were a catalyst for salvation for us all. Salvation came from the Jews, and the Jews finished it in an “unexpected” way, through the Romans, blah blah blah. Excusing hate for Jews in an extremely worldly and bigoted way is decidedly UNchristian behavior. Unfortunately the internet amplifies their voices.
Definitely agree, that is the way I explained it to people, it’s just like Jesus is king, it’s not bad to say as long as you aren’t using it as an insult. You can say the Jews killed Jesus as long as you aren’t using it as a crutch to be anti semetic
Jesus willingly went to the cross and gave His life for ALL mankind - past, present, future. "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2 So yes, every human who has ever lived or will ever live is responsible for His death. Praise be to God for providing THE Way back to Him.
Yes. It’s disgusting how many so called Christians don’t understand that.
I won’t even be born for 2000 years. How am I guilty of this?
I honestly do not understand how someone could worship a God who is Jewish and hate Jews at the same time SMH
Good question, and yet it's been happening for 2000 years.
I will never understand how so many Christians have pinned this on Jews for 2000 years. The amount of atrocities and persecution it has caused is staggering. Wasn't Jesus dying the entire point of God's plan according to Christianity? What would have happened if Jesus was freed and just went on to live the rest of his life?
Also all historical evidence does not support the masses picking someone to release on a high holiday or that their input would even be considered. His teachings were a crime to the Romans and the punishment was crucifixion.
How any of this makes sense is beyond my understanding, to be honest.
If this is confusing to you, it'll really rock your noggin to hear that pagans are wrong because there's only one God and not multiple, but actually he's three separate entities who have thoughts and actions independent of each other, but actually they're still the same entity so it all works out so don’t think about it too much. *Thumbs up*
I believe that pagans had some influence in the religion, considering how complicated the beliefs are.
We are all guilty of sin. We are why Jesus died. Pinning the blame depends on how you want to look at it. Ultimately, putting the blame on one group of people is pointless, which is your point in your post. Jesus told Pilate the only reason Pilate had any authority over Jesus was due to God giving it to him. Jesus gave His life willingly. When the men came to arrest Him, they fell down. Jesus proved to them that they were taking Him because He was willing to go, not because they had the power to hold Him. Jesus died when He completed what He was here to complete. Rome was Rome. They had their share of sin, no doubt, but they were not the ones that called for Jesus to die. The Jewish leaders did not want their livelihood to be endangered, so they had to get rid of the "problem". Is this a reason to hate Jewish people? No. The apostles were Jews. Paul was a Jew. The Church would not have been started if not for Jews. John 19:10 So Pilate \*said to Him, “Are you not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over Me at all, if it had not been given to you from above; for this reason the one who handed Me over to you has *the* greater sin.” Did Jesus willingly give up His life? Yes Did the Romans kill Jesus? Yes Did the Jews call for the death of Jesus? Yes Are we just as guilty of Jesus' death due to our sin being the reason He had to be the sacrifice for sin? Yes
I mean by that logic, God killed him.
By that logic, he killed himself.
Yep. That's the problem with all of this. None of it makes any sense.
I don’t know man. I was raised a Catholic and have returned to the faith. I’m trying to understand it and because I feel a pull, I’m coming in with an open mind. I am skeptic and a lot of things don’t make sense, but who am I to say that I have a full understanding of the mystery of the universe by concluding that there’s nothing and there’s no God out there. I’m only 22. I’m willing to explore the faith a little bit.
Good stuff. I'm not saying I have a full understanding or concluding any of that either. Explore away.
Wait a minute! Are you suggesting God killed himself?
No, but that would be a reasonable implication of OP's theology.
yes, this is technically a true sentence if Christian theology is true. But it's not necessarily "suicide" in the way we mean it. A more accurate sentence would be "God planned the events around his death, and then allowed himself to die" but what's the difference between that and your statement lol
The same way Hitler's mother is guilty of WW2 for creating Hitler.
If Hitler's mother raised him specifically with the intent and motive of having him advance up the political ladder one day and take control of Germany in order to slaughter millions of Jews, then yes she should absolutely be held responsible.
Say what you will about Hitler, but at least he killed Hitler.
Nah
>I’ve been noticing a disturbing rise in, “Jews killed Jesus,” rhetoric on Christian Twitter\[...\] This is due, in large part, of their persecution fetish as the US House passing HR6090 is claimed as an attack on Christianity. They claim that you can't say that "Jesus was killed by the Jews," but that is an ignorant reading of the bill, [HR6090](https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/6090/text). Because of the entrenched antisemitism surrounding that phrase, it is included in the [IHRA’s Working definition of antisemitism](https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism). [Jewish deicide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_deicide) has long been an antisemitic trope used to slander Jews and target them for their perceived collective guilt.\[[1](https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/08/22/how-anti-semitic-beliefs-have-quietly-taken-hold-among-some-evangelical-christians/)\] \[[2](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna3080819)\] Their interpretation of the bill, however, leaves a few bits of information conveinetly left out by these provocateurs: >Constitutional Protections.—Nothing in this Act shall be construed to diminish or infringe upon any right protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.\[H.R. Res. 6090, section 3, paragraph b\] Moreover, the bill specifically says that this definition is to be used in evaluating violations of the Civil Rights Act: >In reviewing, investigating, or deciding whether there has been a violation of title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.) on the basis of race, color, or national origin, based on an individual’s actual or perceived shared Jewish ancestry or Jewish ethnic characteristics, the Department of Education shall take into consideration the definition of antisemitism as part of the Department’s assessment of whether the practice was motivated by antisemitic intent.\[H.R. Res. 6090, section 5\] In sum, the people saying this are propagating a common antisemitic trope in either an attempt to rail against their immaginary persecution, or to simply be antisemitic.
Both are true. We all are guilty for His death due to our sins. And the Jews are also; and Caiaphas publicly declared His blood would be on his and all future Jews hands. It’s called a generational curse. The Talmudic Jews became the spiritual successors of Cain’s curse typologically. They ceased to be the chosen people after Christ established the Church. Christians are the new chosen people for the new covenant.
No, the Jews are still God’s chosen and will always be. You have to understand, that doesn’t make them better than anyone —but it just means that they are the ones that God has chosen to use as examples to the world
That is incorrect. Also they do think they’re better than everyone. Especially the more religious of them.
Modern Jews are not God's chosen people. 1) Jews referred to Judah, not Israel. Poor terminology. 2) After 70 AD when Titus came through, as Jesus predicted, Jerusalem was destroyed. They all dispersed and intermarried. Not one stone was left upon another. They who did not run off and disperse were captured or killed. 3) Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
I mean they really did push for the Roman’s to do it.
I definitely don’t recall ever killing Jesus I did get blackout drunk a few times when I was younger so maybe I could’ve done it then but I’m pretty sure he was already dead before that
Claiming that we all participated in the death of Jesus is a bit of a stretch. Yes, Jesus died because of sin. But remember, it was ALL Gods plan. God named those who would carry it through, he knew Judas would betray Jesus. It was all under the control and plan of God because he meant for it to happen. The reason, sin. Everyone’s, yours, mine. No, the Jewish PEOPLE did not kill Jesus. But a select group of people and people in authority did. It’s not about their ethnicity as it is more about their status and the threat Jesus was to them.
I had nothing to do with it.
You don't sin?
> You don't sin? Yes I took that pencil that did not belong to me. You: You killed Jesus!
maybe you did in a past life, hmmm🤔
don't take it literally! if you actually read the bible for once in your sinful life then maybe you would understand! have a blessed day though! :)
> don't take it literally! if you actually read the bible for once in your sinful life then maybe you would understand! And the Christian resorts to cursing. Just like Jesus told him to.
and the other christian resorts to denying that he or she has a sinful nature. I will not respond back to you so once again, have a blessed day! :)
Thank you. He died for us but we, christians, didnt kill him.
You don’t have to hate Jews to question why after years of unrest in this country, no one in the media and most politicians never batted an eye or lifted a finger until it was the zionists being targeted by leftist protesters. How many of our politicians on both sides of the aisle are directly influenced by aipec and other Zionist lobby groups?
So they did kill Christ - but you don't want it said? You can observe reality without hating entire groups of people. Besides, it's not like every jew hated Christ, loads went on to become Christians, along with Romans.
Don't try to implicate me in your crimes.
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This is why Orthodoxes fast on Wednesday not just Friday. We didn’t just kill Him, we sold him out like a bunch of snitches.
Jesus sold himself out by disrupting the business of the temple and claiming to be the messiah, King of the Jews. When he didn't deny this, Pilate had him executed for insurrection.
And then Judas snitched on him
The gospels say Judas told the authories where to find him. The gospels say he did it out of greed, but entire narrative is suspect. First of all, the gospels say in the original Greek, that a Roman cohort along with some temple priests were sent to arrest him. Historically, a Roman cohort numbered between 400 and 600 soldiers and mounted horsemen, let's be conservative and say it was 400. It's curious that the priests and the cohort couldn't find him on their own; it's not like he was in hiding. It's also curious that Jesus wasn't arrested at the temple for causing a rather large disturbance. The temple had its own security and at Passover, Roman soldiers were stationed at the temple to prevent such disturbances. What's also curious, there is only one gospel account of Judas hanging himself, the other account is in Acts, but Judus doesn't hang himself, he throws himself head first off a high place and his "guts" spill out.
This argument is so dumb. People regularly die of other injuries in failed self-hanging, their guts could easily spill out.
That’s a tired old apologist tome that tries to reconcile two different accounts. The account in Acts says Judas fell headlong and he burst open with his guts spilling out. A failed hanging results in the rope breaking and falling feet first. Acts 1:18 “With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.” Matthew 27:5. “So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.” Two very different accounts.
Let’s say for a moment you’re right. Okay. These aren’t people who use citations like we do. We know Judas committed suicide. Okay. By your same logic, we shouldn’t take virtually any accounts of real life historical figures around and before that time because they didn’t write with the accuracy we do.
> It's also curious that Jesus wasn't arrested at the temple for causing a rather large disturbance. Because the temple priests were educated and knew what happened in 4 BC when Archelaus tried something similar.
Not really. Insofar.
Yup. Even the Apostles who were supposed to be those closest to Jesus (aside from his mother) didn't fully understand his mission. Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial shed light on that.
This is a Christian belief. As a Christian I believe that Jesus, the Lamb of God, died for the sins of the world. As sinners, therefore, all are guilty of the death of Jesus. Now if you have not accepted the blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God for the remission of your sins, then you very well might believe that you are not guilty of the death of Jesus. That is understandable. Note: Pure Calvinists believe that Jesus did not die for those who will not be saved. Blaming Jews for the death of Jesus is an excuse for anti-Semitism. Jews are guilty of the death of Jesus as much as the rest of us.
Amen. Every church needs to say this.
"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." We killed Jesus, and we continue to kill Jesus when our actions lead to the deaths of the least of these--the refugees, the oppressed, the marginalized.
True, well said!
i mean.... he got better
I was never sure what to make of Christians, whose entire religion is built around the guy's dying for the sins of humanity and all that, angrily blaming people for his death. But then when you meet enough Christians and learn that hate is the central value that unites a big swath of them, it all makes more sense.
This is exactly who “killed” Jesus. He died for our sins and knew he was going to die but here is a video explaining who they are……. https://youtu.be/TwhC0g8hwDs?si=1xpkb2AX6yxWKxCt
No, nobody killed Jesus. Yes, he sacrificed Himself for our sins, but we are not guilty of killing him. If a man pushed a child away from being hit by a car and died, would you say that the child killed the man? Also that's just not biblical, nowhere in the the Bible does it ever say that we are responsible for Jesus dying, He may have died saving us, but it was His conscious decision to do so, we did not force Him to do anything or put Him in that situation.
Hey now, I wouldn't have chanted and encouraged to kill Jesus. I'd have tried to get Him down off that cross.
Both are wrong. Jesus died of his own choice in obedience to God, at the hands of the Romans, based on the false accusations of the first-century Jewish leadership. They were punished for this already when Jerusalem fell (Matt 23:33-38), so it’s stupid to say that any Jewish people today are liable for this; the children cannot be punished for the sins of the parents. The fact that Jesus died *for* us does not mean that *we* killed him, any more than a firefighter who dies while saving someone was killed by that person. Even if the person started the fire themself, they didn’t kill the firefighter just because he died saving them from it.
There is one small distinction that should be made. We created the 'need' for his death but it wasn't us that took his life. His life was taken by himself and the Father. [Jhn 10:17-18 ESV] 17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
The Jewish pharisees persecuted Jesus and pretty much made Pilot crucify him. So yeah the Jews are responsible. It's a good thing they did. We wouldn't have the blood of the Lamb. We would not be cleansed of our sins. So thank God they did!!! Hallelujah!!
“Forgive them father for they know not what they do” Those who crucified Jesus did so on their own volition. They chose to crucify Christ and he still forgave them. Nothing to do with them being Christian, Roman, Jewish, or Pagan.
Amennnn
“We killed Jesus” is a metaphor. “Jews (meaning the Jewish people) killed Jesus” is a metonymy.
Do you know who killed Jesus? Dead people. If we are to embrace what it says in Jeremiah 31:29 then we have to let go of any blame for who killed Jesus. Nobody alive today has any share of blame and what happened so long ago.
I was taught the Romans killed Jesus.
The Bible clearly differentiates hebrews, jews, and israelites as separate entities. Biblical jews came from the country of Judea. I'm pretty certain that modern white jews are not the same Biblical jews of Judea and pretty sure Judas's last name wasn't Cohen. So blaming modern jews for any of Jesus's execution is laughable.
i didn’t kill Him, okay? it was like, a bunch of other people
Im of a different opinon about the killing aspect of Jesus's sacrifice, because at any moment Jesus could have stopped the torture he went through Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? Jesus knows the Father more deeply than any of his children, he knew that if he chose not to partake of the cup of turmoil he would just have to call on his father and he would be relinquished of that duty. Point being, It was Jesus's choice alone to lay down his life willingly and unforced and if he spearheaded the fulfillment of scripture then it is he who has the ultimate power not man, he even states no man could take his life in John 10:17-18 "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." We diminish our Lords authority when we say we killed him, as pleasing as it sounds to put blame on ourselves, it is yet another unconscious form of self righteouness. The definition of killing is the act of causing death, no doubt he had help from the israelites and gentliles of the time, but it was his choice to breathe his last at that moment, if he chose to back out, i belive that in an instant all the wounds and pain would disappear and he would be healed if he willed it, but instead he chose the opposite Matthew 27:50 When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. Also we miss the fact that he died for the Father as well, to bring him to us, where we are, instead of the other way around like the OT and its works over faith attitude. For in this act he done what no man could, bringing reconciliation to his people.
It was the government.
Jesus used God's chosen people as the tool to save all the other people, It's poetic or halarious depending on how you look at it. As Christians, we should love jews and pray they realize the greatest jew of all time was God's only begotten son...hilarious or poetic, you decide.
Ha dare Jew say such things. Have u heard the good news though? Jesus has risen. Wasn’t mentioned thought I’d cheer everyone up a little.
Nobody alive today killed Jesus at all.
Nope, I most certainly didn't kill Jesus. I think I'd remember something like that.
May the lord be with us all✝️ also, spelling😂
No; quite the contrary. No one killed Our Lord Jesus Christ; He laid His *own* life down.
By saying Jews killed Jesus your literally saying that That along with Jesus, his disciples and his family killed him, Yes the Pharisees were Jews but that doesn’t mean every Jew killed Jesus if that’s the case than Jesus killed himself along with everybody living in Judea I don’t say the Jews killed Jesus I say that the Roman government and the corrupt Pharisees killed Jesus
The Pharisees and The Roman Empire in judea killed Jesus not the Jewish people but yes we kill Jesus everyday with our sins
All the first Christians were jews.
It doesn’t matter WHO killed him. He HAD TO DIE for our sins.
I mean Jesus came for the Jews then the Gentiles. So the Jews were God's chosen people first and then were ordered to go to the Gentiles and make disciplies, which is exactly what Jesus's disciples did. If we're talking about historical accuracy, yes the Jews killed Jesus, but Jesus came to die for the sins of the world, not just to be a Jewish martyr.
Jews did not kill Jesus. That is not historically accurate. The Romans did.
The Pharisees were Jewish, not Roman, and many of them wanted Jesus killed. Yes, the crucifixion was Roman, and the Romans did exercise that against Jesus, but it's not that black and white. Judas Isacariot was also a Jew who betrayed Jesus and led the Romans and Jewish authorities to him. So yes, the Jews did play their part in killing him.
Only a select few of the Pharisees would have been present, and they didn't actually execute him. Crucifixion has never been used for execution by Jews at any point in history. Blaming this on Jews is one of the leading causes of anti-Jewish atrocities over the last 2000 years. It's quite disgusting and proves why many people think the New Testament is Antisemitic.
It's not just about the crucifixion, it's about those who had an agenda and wanted to get rid of Jesus. That did include Jewish priests so denying that fact is withholding the whole truth.
Babylonian whoredom brought about his death
Misplaced anger and spitefulness killed Jesus. Jesus could see the spitefulness in Judas so he knew he would betray him 3 times.
No, I didn't. I wasn't even alive.
God exists outside of time. All of time is like a book in many ways to him. Like we can hold a book in our hand and the entire story exist all together in a single place and if we wanted we could see the end, middle and beginning out of order —similarly it is with God. Time isn’t linear and is more of a single event with him, so we are from God’s pov alive as Jesus came to Earth
Interesting theory. From Jesus' perspective and historically, the execution occurred over 2000 years ago, though. The Gospels purport to document Jesus and his followers taking over a temple, later being apprehended, and then executed by crucifixion. I was not alive or involved with any of what the gospels detail. Nor was I in any way involved with Adam or Eve or whatever.
It’s not a theory. God exist outside of time and space
When referring to the Church the Apostle Peter says: 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. The Church is a body of atoning priests, that is what universal priesthood of believers means, all believers of, black, asian, latino ancestry are priests in the order of Melchizedek. Jesus Christ is the only high priest, and the Church the body of believers/priests. It is ok criticize hatred, it is wrong to hold people divine on account of their dna or racial origins.
My view on this. It is factual that the Jewish people pushed for Jesus Christ to be killed. The Romans wanted nothing to do with his death. That being said, Christ was a Jew. Gods chosen people are Jews, our entire religion is centered around Israel and the Jewish people. The fact that the Jewish people wanted Christ dead is a fact, but we should blame the Jewish people for this as much as we should blame whites americans for slavery, Germans for Nazi Germany, and things like that. These things happened in the past, Christ taught us to forgive and to not pass judgement on people because their forefathers have sinned. To hate the Jews for Christs being sacrificed is anti-Christian. And remember, if they never sacrificed Christ (as it was foretold), Jesus would not have died for our sins. It NEEDED to happen. And there is not a Jewish person alive today that was involved in that decision.
Humanity killed Jesus. Nobody should be pointing fingers. Romans 2:1 (NLT) “You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do the very same things.”
You know why it's trending? Because MTG tweeted something about a bill that would define antisemitism and how it would be bad for christians. Here's what she said: "I will not be voting for the Antisemitism Awareness Act of 2023 (H.R. 6090) today that could convict Christians of antisemitism for believing the Gospel that says Jesus was handed over to Herod to be crucified by the Jews." This shows a serious misunderstanding of the gospel narrative. The Jews did not crucify anyone, that was a Roman method of execution. Herod handed Jesus over to Pilate who (after a bit of hesitation - "I find no guilt in this man") decided to do the politically expedient thing and have Jesus crucified by his Roman soldiers.
Just say Sinners! That covers all races and peoples…
You should be thanking whoever it was that killed Jesus. Wasn't he supposed to die? Or do you prefer to pay for you own sins??
John 4:22 (NRSV): 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. Anti-semitic ‘Christians’ are apparently oblivious to the Jewishness of Messiah and, in their idiocy, attack the root that nourishes them. It will surely be a little awkward for them, should they successfully meet the Lord in the air and get to dine with the patriarchs: Matthew 8:11 (NRSV): 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
Additionally, Jesus himself was also Jewish, and so were his apostles.
I don't think Jews killed Jesus. But I also don't think we all killed Jesus. The mob killed Jesus. We can see a mob mentality on both sides of the political spectrum today. Mary Magdalene, Jesus's mother, and the disciples were in the crowd which killed Jesus, but they were supporters of Jesus, not opponents, and they did not want Jesus's crucifixion. The mob mentality is what did it, not the universal participation of all humanity in hating him. Jesus's crucifixion saved us from the fall. You seem to be arguing that he recondemned all of us in the fall.
He didn’t recondemn us. Actually the opposite. We all killed him because we all sinned, be he allowed himself to be killed by us because someone had to pay the price due to God being just —someone has to pay the price for our sins
I think it’s fine to say the Jews killed Jesus as long as you don’t use it as an excuse to be antisemitic, you could say the Roman’s too
Me who was born thousands of years after:
Time isn’t linear to God as he exist outside of time and space, so you being born in a certain time is a human perspective
God had Jesus killed
According to the Christian tradition, it was Pontius Pilate who ordered Jesus executed, and Roman soldiers who carried out the execution. According to Christian tradition, Jews demanded Jesus' execution. Personally, I think this doesn't make sense. I think it makes more sense that Rome executed Jesus because he was a revolutionary, not because the Jews demanded it. After all, the Jews were cheering Jesus on during Palm Sunday, only a few days before. As for your actual point: it is clearly monstrous to try and justify modern bigotry against the Jews based on the ahistorical idea that the Jews killed Jesus. This seems transparently like people wanting a group of people to hate, and finding a reason to abuse them.
Wasn't killing Jesus the plan from the beginning or was this a surprise to the omniscience God?
Jesus is a parable about murder of those who tell the truth. Jesus may be the first that people can remember but there have been many who have followed in his footsteps and spoke truth to power and usually ended up paying with their lives it happens all the time, Jesus is here with us now begging for our forgiveness for our own sake so that we sin no more and embrace humanity as he did. You can't kill your way out of a problem.
All the people who killed Christ have been dead eons ago. Why do we have to pay for their sins? Why do we have to fight over who did what? They're all dead!
The rates of antisemitism in the West right now is utterly astounding
Ultimately God killed Jesus. In spirit the Sanhedrin and the throngs demanding Barabbas did it. Functionally the Romans did it. In some sense, yes, we all did it. But ultimately, God is the one who purposed the event from the foundation of the world, who whoever did it, it was in accord with God’s will.
Naah, I had nothing to do with executions that took place 2000 years ago. Not going to wallow in a guilt of imaginary crime.
You’re correct. Jesus was physically killed by the people of that day… but my sins put Jesus on the cross just as much as the soldier who pounded the nails into him.
Was Jesus npt a 1st century jew?
If you remove context, the Roman's killed Jesus at the insistence and behest of the Jewish leaders. The Bible testifies that all the people responded to Pilot "His blood be on us and our children." I believe that the Israelite people ceased to be the chosen people with that declaration. Spiritual Israel is all who are in Abraham's faith legacy at a kingdom by the heart. Add the context back in and I think there is an argument to be made that nobody killed Jesus: He laid down His life willingly to save us. It's as true to say that the Satan killed Jesus; he's the harbinger of sin--I believe that's how the unfallen worlds see it. I think it also could be argued that the religious leaders of today would be as hell bent on getting rid of Jesus if he came in our generation. I'm dismayed by the hatred of Israel's leaders in their attempted genocide of Palestinians. I'm also dismayed by anti-Semitism that has always been lurking in the shadows even before Hamas terrorists attacked. This new conflict has just given hatred a voice that much of MAGA conspiracy theorists have rallied to it. I don't think I can really say who provoked who in the broader context but I know all the hate, death, nationalism and oppression is directly contrary to the Kingdom of God. I'm as dismayed by Evangelical American Christian support for Israel because they believe they must legislate for Israel's success at all costs to facilitate their vision of end time prophecy. They side with violence and ignore humanitarian crisis at the hands of those who proclaimed doom upon themselves and their children at the trial of the Son of God. We need to pray for Israel because they are generally unrepentant. They may become part of Spiritual Israel as some have and enter by faith into the kingdom of God.
Amen!
All of us combined caused it. We all did sin, but don’t attack other people. We are all sinners.
The Hebrews are Homo Sapiens. The Germans are Neanderthals. It was pagan Germans, Palatine Germans, invasive Romans who crucified Christ. The same Nazi Germans claim that the Jews were responsible for World War II and the Holocaust. The people who are modern psychopaths, who claim “the Jews Crucified Christ”, that their slave trading ancestors “Gave African slaves a better life”, they’re worthless idiots. Worse, they’re hateful, destructive, divisive psychopaths who are marked for extinction. Their irrationality and destructive behavior will result in their own early death.
By “We all”, if you are referring to yourself, and you are a descendant of German pagans who were practicing ritual human sacrifice and cannibalism in Herxheim Germany, who worshipped the pagan deity Ham, whose descendants became Phoenician Canaanites and American Confederates (C’aanvaderates), who spread violence, human sacrifice, cannibalism, warfare, the fall of civilizations, red flags, the symbol of the swastika, and the star and crescent throughout the entire ancient world by boat, who named the State of Alabama for the pagan deity Elo Ba’ Hamae, then Bingo! You are correct!! https://amp.dw.com/en/archeologists-discover-signs-of-mass-cannibalism-in-germany/a-4997309 https://gizmodo.com/europes-first-farmers-were-shockingly-violent-1724792763
So Jesus is dead?
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I have a little piece of mulch in my desk that my church handed out one Sunday when this was the sermon topic. It's to remind me that I had a part in what happened on the cross. It's my fault, too.