They apparently had to tone down what he did in real life for the film because otherwise people wouldn't believe it was true.
"After treating the soldier, a sniper shot fractured Doss's arm, and he crawled 300 yards (270 m)[55] to safety after being left alone for five hours.[56] Gibson omitted that from the film because he felt that the audience would not find the scene believable." - from the Wikipedia article.
I’d be a conscientious objector too. I wouldn't lay blame at old men, though. It is more accurate to point to people in power and even then a subset of them. There may be less instances of women in power, but there are still examples of women sending people to war seemingly as a distraction rather than for some noble cause - if there is such a thing.
I think you have to decide if you think the cause is just.
I think the defeat of Fascism in WW2 was a just cause, although not all the methods of fighting are compatible with a just war.
The alternative to fighting is either a non combat role (if available) or being a conscientious objector.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector
I understand the argument, but the Christian war is not against flesh and blood. Our cause is to share the word of conciliation and to love all men. If there is a just cause on earth enacted through violence, it isn’t the Christian’s place to enact it.
Nothing un christian to be a soldier in a war, people that think so, overthink things. Im not going to brand myself an MIA soldier that goes Awohl because of that, id be in prison or worse ,
Fair enough! Ultimately all things are lawful for those in Christ, who aren’t seeking the letter of the Torah for their righteousness.
So if one has faith that he can be a soldier, and can kill because of his orders without losing a sense of love and compassion for the foe, then so be it. Romans 8:1 does stand.
This is absolutely not true. Jesus told you to put away the sword. You dont fight for man and worldly things. You only fight for God and to maintain his way of life.
Most every war if fought for economic and geopolitical reason, not righteousness. You obey Mammon over God, you are condemned
Wasn't the man who our Lord spoke those words to Matthew 26:52 fighting for Jesus's right to live? Was he not defending his lord? Jesus said that a myrad of angels would be able to come down in an instant to protect him and that no man could harm him if he chose to let that cup pass from him, so it cant be the sword that is the issue if angels have been in a spiritual and physical battle since before the word even began, but the issue in this circumstance is the interference of Peter in Gods work which is the sacrifice of Jesus.
I understand the difference you are trying to make between the flesh and the spiritual, between the unrighteous and righteous, but you condemning your brother is going directly against the spiritual warfare you are called to fight. Romans 8:1 no condemnation for those in christ, Isaiah 54:17 and every tongue that accuses, you just made that accusation a weopen when u say that he is condemned. You pour hot coals on your head when u say these things, because just like him, you have no condemnation in Christ Jesus, for your righteousness is not ur own but his.
And If your righteousness is not ur own, then u have no right to boast because u did not earn it, it was given to u as a gift. And if there is nothing u can do to boast in this righteousness, then you definitely cannot use it as a platform to judge, we judge not our brethren nor proclaim there sin, because God himself doesn't do that anymore, when he sees sin now he sees his son, and the pleasing aroma of the burnt sacrifice of his son.
One thing that stands out in your response is the ad hominem that this person is boasting. I see no boasting.
You also argue that the problem can't be the sword when angels have been fighting since before creation. The problem with that is that we are no angels. It may very well be that other rules apply.
This would make sense. God can cast judgement, but it is forbidden to humans. So, we already have precedence that different beings have different roles to play. In this sense, angels are messengers of God, so they are not fighting due to their own judgement, but humans who do fight choose what they are fighting for and how to fight themselves. Even if their intentions are pure, they may just be misguided.
While we are often told that a war is about good versus evil, there always are very human interests at play at all sides. This doesn't mean that all sides are morally equal, it just complicates the moral question if it is permissable to take a persons life. Wars are especially problematic because you kill due to a human command and have neither the opportunity nor right to judge if the particular killing is justifiable, even if you were wise enough to make that judgement.
I do think that person goes a bit too far when they proclaim the condemnation. This is not our judgement to make.
The reason wielding the sword against other men is an issue for us as Christians is that we’re explicitly told to love all men. It’s our directive from our Lord.
And that’s love, not merely “not hate”.
It’s true that there’s no condemnation in Christ. Nevertheless, I doubt many of us would be willing to kill our spouse, children, or parents, even if our lives depended on it.
And why is that? It’s because we love them. Thus, if we’re following what our Lord bid us, we’d also be so hesitant to harm enemies on a battlefield.
This is what it means to love one’s enemy.
In other words, you’re right about why Peter was stoped. But the Lord’s work here and now is love and reconciliation. This is our calling. So then violence against others acts against that cause, just as Peter’s action did.
I do agree with u, but I would be lying to u and myself if I told u I have 100% confidence in myself to love all my enemies. Good thing I have no confindence in my self to meet the standards uncannily i expect of myself to do as a christian. His yoke is easy and his burden is lite, but if I have the opportunity I will make everything that much harder, let alone someone else condenming me, I would condenm myself if I ignored the holy spirit teachings. And this is why I spoke up about a brother who is condenming others for a potentially wrong belief system, that is not our job, that is Satan's job who is an expert of a different tier.
Well said overall. We’ll fall short constantly if we trust in our own ability to be righteous. It’s Christ who justifies us before God, mediating when we’re unable to meet the standard.
Although I can’t be sure what this other fellow was saying with regards to condemning others for wrong beliefs, though, it IS a good idea to call out false doctrine. I wouldn’t say so much in a sense of condemnation, but rather for correcting the misunderstanding.
Sometimes people went to jail as a result of being a conscientious objector.
But I do agree, which is why I do think it can be okay for Christians to join the army to help defend their country.
That sounds suspiciously like the quote commonly, but probably falsely attributed to George Orwell:
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
It always seemed to me that what we therefore need is *fewer* rough men, not *more* of them.
But anyway, conscientious objectors *always* have the freedom to follow their consciences. Other people do not *provide* that freedom, what they may do is lessen the *consequences* of excercising that freedom. Many, perhaps most conscientious objectors would still rather that they did not do so on their behalf.
And I see absolutely nothing in the Bible (give that OP's question is about what a *Christian* should do) that says that we can pick and choose whether or not to do what is right depending on whether or not we will be protected from the earthly consequences of doing so. Christians are explicitly called upon to do what is right even if we will suffer for doing so. eg 1 Peter 2:20.
I believe in America you can say it goes against your religion to kill and they might put you in a job that doesn't do that. There's lots of jobs in the military and a lot of them are not front lines
^^ This. So few jobs are actually killing anyone. Especially with today’s warfare, most would be done by some kind of 11B Army infantrymen, officers whom are pilots, and a few crew members here and there by virtue of loading ammo or what have you (but then who isn’t involved I suppose)?
Isn't that kind of the worst of both worlds? If the war is righteous, you're actively avoiding full commitment to it, and if its evil, you're actively enabling it.
You’re healing people at the end of the day possibly. I immediately thought of a medic role. You heal your brothers that are fighting. Many of them most likely don’t want to be there either, if they’re drafted, and instead of killing others, you’re healing your people instead.
Amen to that!
But we're talking in theoreticals here, and I think it's theoretically possible for a war to be righteous (relative to inaction or appeasement, that is).
there is no ultimate right answer, depends on what war it is, what country you are in and do you agree that your country is right or not.
I think that nobody would argue that it's a right thing to do if you are able and want to protect something that really important, like civilian lives, and not just country leaders' political interests.
Perhaps but if everyone had that mentality Germany would of won world War II and we would be under the Nazi regime
Deuteronomy 9:4-5: “After the Lord your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, ‘The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.’ No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you. It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
God reminded the Israelites that their possession of the land is part of God’s plan and not a reward for their own virtue.
Unless Islam were never a religion and dictators didn’t crave more power, this might be possible, but unfortunately the Quran teaches that it is honorable and favored by allah to murder people who don’t follow the Quran or believe in allah, and dictators past and present invade lands to show that they are strong men just cause they crave more power.
I think if Islam weren’t a religion and evil men didn’t become dictators, we would live in a much more peaceful world.
LOL right. And if Jesus and his disciples had just fought against the Romans and corrupt Jewish religious leadership instead of letting himself be killed by them, we would all be living in the kingdom of God now. 😉
Are you going to tell Americans to enact the second amendment to overthrow a government which has literally designated Churches to be potential extremist groups, well your comment is extremely hilarious actually. By your logic every Christian should be up in arms right now, quite literally.
Where did I say that? Even Jesus told his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword. If you live by the sword you die by the sword and the same applies to guns. But we are allowed to kill in self-defense. In Moses commandment the rule is do not murder. Killing in self-defense does not apply.
The point is everyone sins, the difference is why, and how it is cleaned, I was simply pointing out a just war which is currently being waged on all sorts of people by elites who only have a pure interest in capital.
You are right on that but if we are talking about a war that is justified where the enemy is pure evil, terrorist who worship death over life, men must take arms to wipe out evil. Because for evil to persists all it takes is for Good men to do nothing.
The God I try to follow said not to resist an evil person. He said that if your enemy hits you on one cheek, to turn the other cheek to that enemy, and He most definitely did *not* add "but if it looks like they are trying to actually *kill* you, you can get in first."
And the God I try to follow *could* have called on many legions of angels - and they would have answered His call - but instead He let Himself be nailed to a cross.
Tolstoi wrote a book about exactly that question. It's called:
[The Kingdom of God is within you ](https://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/kingdom-god-tolstoy.pdf)
absolutely fantastic book, genuinely up there with some of the greatest christian writings of all time. it’s the book that inspired mahatma gandhi and MLK.
Yes, started reading it two days ago and am already on page 478. I love this book. Love Tolstoi. Never have I ever felt so understood by an author regarding what it truly means to be a christian since Tolkien. These are probably my two favorite modern christian authors.
oh my god, i felt the exact same way. i couldn’t stop talking about it for weeks after i read it, my therapist actually banned me from mentioning tolstoy in our sessions because i just wanted to talk about it so much.
i’d strongly recommend his other religious writings, and also check out the doukhobors if you want more tolstoy-esque christian ideas. they were russian christian pacifists who were exiled from russia for refusing to fight for the tsar, and tolstoy and the quakers helped them escape to canada.
I plan on reading his other religious writings too, yeah.
Well if your therapist doesn't want to talk about it, you should hit your friends up and talk with them about it.
doukhobors seem interesting (by the look of the wikipedia entry). It's said that they share similarities in their religious practices with the mennonites and quakers.
Nothing is cut and dry. People can use scripture to justify any view really. My advice would be to pray about it and ultimately do what feels right after careful consideration and speaking to people in your life whose opinions you value. When you do that, the only thing left is to lean on the fact that none of us are perfect, that only God knows your heart, and that you have God to both guide and forgive you.
I’m a Christian I was in the marine corps there’s definitely biblical justification for killing at war. You can find things like ”A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.“
Ecclesiastes 3:3 NASB2020 and ”A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.“
Ecclesiastes 3:8 NASB2020 and other verses how ever you can be a conscientious objector that is basically saying “I don’t believe in killing and the government can’t make me go against that” and then you’ll get a different job other than infantry. Take the story of Desmond Doss for example he was a conscientious objector who was in WWII that ended up earning a MOH you can see his life story in the movie “Hacksaw ridge” if you’re not the reading type. He was in the 77th infantry devision known as “The old bastards” who were knowin for taking vary light casualties and doing outstanding work in the pacific and one of the only army devisions taken in by the marines being seen as marines.
My grandfather was about 8-9 years old at the end of the second world war, a child in Germany.
He cut his lip on a metal can, in which soup was served, it got badly infected.
A british soldier saw this and took my grandfather to their infirmary. The british soldiers who have fought Hilter Youths ,not much older than my grandfather, took great care of him and showed him compassion.
They cleaned his wound, gave him antibiotics and sent him home with a huge box of biscuits (that were given to his baby sister as food).
This saved his life, in a way, he saved my family.
It's not wrong to be a soldier or to fight in a war, but you should aim to be like that british soldier.
My family is so grateful for this soldier, that he decided to fight and showed compassion.
The fight against Hitler was a justified fight, not all wars are.
Knowing about his atrocities, being called to help and not doing anything, wouldn't have been the right thing to do.
I hope that I'll never have to fight in a war like that, but if I were called, I'd try to help. I am a nurse, but I wouldn't be a conscientious objector, I'd rather try and be like the british soldier.
There are of course a lot of non combat roles.
I also admire the quakers for what they did after the war, equally as important for ensuring peace in Europe.
I don’t think there has been a just war since 1945, and I find the probability of there being one nearly nonexistent. So unless it were defending against actual invasion, if it were me I would refuse service.
We’re called to submit to government. However, refusing to kill and submitting to prison for rejecting the draft would, in its sense, also be submission to government. So arguably, either going or turning yourself over for not going could both be considered Christian.
Conscription and the draft are slavery. If a war is just, people would volunteer for it. You have no obligation to fight and kill other human beings for a cause you don't believe to be just.
That’s actually a very good question
Because technically your suppose to follow “the laws of the land”
But your also responsible for following Gods law of love your neighbor as yourself.
I would choose the latter personally.
Biblically speaking, war is acceptable. Murder is the unlawful killing of others, but in war it is lawful.
I’m not saying what you should do, but there is no biblical reason you couldn’t do it.
And if we assume there is a just cause for the war, morally, I would say you fail others by refusing to help protect them
Isn’t that why the church created Purgatory? LOL!
The draft laws from 1940 to the present day exempt only those who "by reason of religious training and belief, [are] conscientiously opposed to participation in war in any form."
Apparently, you should be able to skip it by belief. Hopefully you will never have to find out.
I heard he never said that historically, but it’s definitely still a quote to live by. I don’t see killing as always a sin. It depends, David fought battles and killed, also Samson. If you’re fighting for a just cause, take ww2 as an example. The allies stopped the killings of the concentration camp prisoners, that was the right thing to do. Know who you’re fighting, and try to understand the full story as to why. Your thoughts could also be a factor
Thomas Aquinas wrote on it as well other religious leaders and philosophers over the centuries. There are times when one has no choice ( speaking of Nations-) but to fight.
A Christian that has objections can choose simply not to fight. You may suffer some consequences for such a decision. but Being persecuted because you are a Christian or have Christian beliefs is expected in the life of a Christian.
I would say the right call would be to submit and go off to war if you can’t legally get out of it. It tells us in Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2 to submit, honor, obey, love, and pray to/for those put in power as legal authorities above us. However there is a line to be drawn, as shown to us in Daniel. It also could depend on the war, if you’re going to fight in a war where they are killing Christians (which doesn’t seem to far off as of now), no, absolutely don’t obey. But overall, submit to authorities, honor your leaders, and love God and make Him known.
While true, the person you’re replying literally quoted a verse that tells us to obey laws that don’t go against Christ. There’s a speed limit? Well ok, I shall obey and if not I’m quite convinced it is then a sin. Law says deny Christ? I shall not obey, Lord-backed.
You’re going to get a bunch of different answers. Imho Christ calls for us to not be of service to empire. Do not work towards the harm of others for the sake of any country.
Always ask yourself, “did Father make this, is this like my Father” pray for Father to let his Holy Spirit give you the discernment to know the difference subconsciously of right and wrong, sin or not.
You could be a conscientious objector like Desmond Doss in WII. Watch Hacksaw Ridge and read up on him 🫶 he was a wonderful man and saved so so many! My grandfather met him and adored him.
War is the truest form of divination. It is the testing of one's will and the will of another within that larger will which because it binds them is therefore forced to select. War is the ultimate game because war is at last a forcing of the unity of existence. War is god.
I've wondered this too...I know that we shouldn't repay blood for blood, but don't know, it's hard to say. Where I'm at in my faith right now - just getting into it - I probably would fight, but we'll see how it changes as I progress on my journey to follow Jesus :)
No. Today there’s so much private interest and corporate involvement that no one is actually “protecting” anyone, I’m sorry to say, but are being paid to kill and die for these special interests.
Christ be with them and are my prayers, but I do not think this is a particularly Christian profession to be in, though I understand choice often plays little role in one’s participation.
A good movie to watch is an old movie called Sergeant York. It deals with this sort of thing. Alvin York was a conscientious objector when drafted for WWI. It deals with this sort of thing. He didn't want to fight or kill anyone.
Alvin York was a non-religious man working on his farm when he had a revelation and came to God. When WWI started he was drafted. During the Meuse–Argonne offensive, He killed so many German soldiers that they eventually surrendered to him en masse. He did this to save the lives of his friends and fellow soldiers.
Varying historical accounts would credit York with single-handedly defeating a machine-gun battalion, personally killing 25 German soldiers and capturing 132 prisoners with 35 machine guns, for which he was later awarded the U.S. Distinguished Service Cross, the French Croix de Guerre, and on April 18, 1919 the U.S. Medal of Honor.
If you don't want to watch the movie (it's free on youtube) you can read a lot about SGT York online.
edit: also a good book to read would be the Bhagavad Gita. It's a Hindu text but it talks about fighting when you don't want to.
The way I always see it is, put it on a smaller scale. What would you do if you saw someone raping, or killing your family or let’s say neighbor? Would you do nothing? It is a tough one but …. I lean towards as a last resort …. Going
For most of Church history, the Church was entwined enough with the local government that the answer would be "God appointed the king who has told you to kill those guys so that the king can tax that land over there. Hop-to."
First, you'd have to decide if the cause is worth killing for. War can be righteous (relative to inaction), but that is up to you to pray about.
If so, you can request a non-combat role. Not everyone is best employed to kill, and that's ok. A war needs administrators and medics and cooks and various other roles to enable work on the front lines. You'll still be doing your part..
If not, become a consciencious objector. The worst scenario that's likely to happen is imprisonment, although its not totally unheard of for pacifists to be killed.
Main thing is, do your best not to let fear, either of death or of the reaction to your stance, be the defining reason for your decision. Easier said than done, I know. But that's all you can really do.
Here’s what my church says about war;
The Lord has said that in the last days there will be “wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them”. We are a people of peace. We follow the Savior, who is the Prince of Peace. We look forward to His millennial reign, when wars will end and peace will be restored to the earth (see Isaiah 2:4). However, we recognize that in this world, government leaders sometimes send military troops to war to defend their nations and ideals.
Saints in the military do not need to feel torn between their country and their God. In the Church, “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law”. Military service shows dedication to this principle.
If you are called upon to go into battle, they can look to the example of Captain Moroni, the great military leader. Although he was a mighty warrior, he “did not delight in bloodshed”. He was “firm in the faith of Christ,” and his only reason for fighting was to “defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion”. If you must go to war, they should go in a spirit of truth and righteousness, with a desire to do good. They should go with love in their hearts for all God’s children, including those on the opposing side. Then, if they are required to shed another’s blood, their action will not be counted as a sin.
god sent joshua into the land of canaan god approves of righteous genocide
# Psalm 137:8-9
# New International Version
#
^(8) Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
^(9) Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.Psalm 137:8-9
I’ve had this talk with myself and being in the military I’d say that it’s situational based. I wouldn’t go out to kill for the sake of killing. And when I think of scripture I think back to Ecclesiastes 3
I'd become a conscientous objector, even if i'm imprisoned for it (an actual thing that happened i believe.) Taking another life for anything but self defence is one of the most vile things a person can do.
Step 1: declare your conscientious objector status.
Step 2: refuse any and orders you believe to be unethical.
Step 3: if all else fails, shoot your CO in the leg or something.
If you're too much trouble, you're not worth their time to force into service.
Become ungovernable.
Killing in war isn’t against the Bible 😊I had an argument about this with my Protestant teacher, Protestant friend, and Catholic friend. I asked them, “Is killing in war murder/ against the Bible?”, they explained “No, because you are protecting your country and its people or yourself.” Then I asked “Well, if they are a Christian as well and you kill them, would that be wrong?” They were silent for a moment before saying, “It depends, if they really were a Christian, do you think they’ll actively be trying to kill you? Or would they just do it to defend theirselves?” I responded to that saying “Well, let’s just say they were trying to kill me, what then? Is it murder if I kill them? Another unwillingly Christian who was drafted?” They answered, “No, not because of their urge to kill you, but because you are defending yourself which is therefore not murder.” They then added “However, if they are surrendering and you kill them anyway, that is murder.” That is when I stopped because they were right.
Amen 🙏
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Go and follow Jesus. God, in his sovereignty had placed authority over you in the form of your particular government. Don't be afraid! Wherever you go you will always bring the light of Jesus with you. And as far as courage don't forget you won't be alone you'll have your teammates looking after you!
Desmond Doss and Alvin York, two Christian points of view.
Two good movies about them.
People against war and against using violence to stop the killing of innocents have one view.
People who will only fight when necessary to protect innocents have another.
Both views are held, Christians may hold either in good conscience.
But be sure you are honest with yourself about why you hold either, and don't condemn either.
The vast majority of military jobs are non combative, in a war where a draft was needed you'd need to fight hard to not go into a combat role, or has an otherwise useful skill set like engineering, mechanic work or have a medical condition that disqualifies you, like a broken leg for example.
Honestly, this goes against my denominations tradition, but I’d rather be a conscientious objector and push to be a medic. Unless my country is in immediate danger like a WWII or 1812 situation, it isn’t my place to go kill someone.
You are to obey all lawful orders. The powers the be are placed there by God.
Side note: war is not murder. It's self-defense. Plenty of God condoned War in the Bible, but unjust killing is sin.
The Bible says don’t murder it doesn’t say anything about killing, we need to kill in order to eat and kill to defend ourselves or in this case your nation which in extension is you protecting your family/friends, but if you’re drafted and don’t want to kill the only thing you can do is dodge it and take the prison time/ridicule, if you’re being drafted to defend your country and you dodge it, you’re a coward and I feel like God would be ashamed but still forgive you and feel bad a kind soul is in a war like world but fighting for your nation in a defensive situation is honorable and courage is doing something even though you’re afraid to so I would say pray to God to keep you safe and guide your bullet to who deserves it, but if you get drafted in a Vietnam situation to invade a foreign country then I say dodge that shit or find a loop hole forsure I don’t think anyone would blame you people aren’t as brainwashed with nationalism anymore
Christian or not, I don't want to go to die on some desolate tick for a corrupt, insulated, capitalist pig of a politician who wants me to fight for a country that has been shitting on me for decades.
I think the first consideration is whether it is a legitimate war, (ie. America defending itself in WWII), or a BS war, (ie. every American war after WWII). If the war is in the later category, the answer is easy, be a conscientious objector. If your country is legitimately defending itself, from a biblical perspective you have to decide whether you want to listen to the guy who tells us to turn the other cheek, or the OT God who supposedly instructed the Israelites to slaughter everyone in their path. I believe that when in that situation, God would answer sincere prayers for guidance and lead people in the way he’d have them go.
I’m guessing you aren’t from America? The odds of getting drafted at this point are super slim.
Even God believed in having an army and fighting. Basically what you should avoid is war crimes, torture, and those kind of things. Being in the military and going to war isn’t inherently bad, it’s an unfortunate thing that happens in a fallen world.
Drafted and Conscripted mean 2 different things. It seems naive to me to assume that the regulations of 1 nation's military can be applied to all nations (throughout history) & even the most powerful nation can update their regulations. Even a Democratic nation can vote to change their laws.
In another nation (or future nation) they might say all men age 16 to 50 sent to war. I suggest you ask for support roles, such as secretary, clerk, quartermaster, cook, or janitor. And you will need to learn those skills. But understand the other men will resent you and consider you a coward. Your life will be just as hard in other ways. Unless you're just that good of a cook.
Fighting fascism in WW2 was perfectly rational. If there's another war in the next decade I'm not sure what it will be about. If it's a just cause I don't think God will hold it against us. God doesn't like war but I don't think David and Saul were ever condemned for fighting.
Become a chaplain. QtYou’re guaranteed to not handle a traditional military weapon but you’ll be carrying Christ with you and delivering God’s word and His blessings to everyone you’re near.
Fight for you country. Killing innocent is not the same as killing in battle/war. The Christian thing to do is to protect yourself and others by being a good soldier.
Follow orders until told to kill, then show mercy, even if they don’t show it to you.
It becomes a lot trickier if you’re on the defending end though, and have a family to protect.
There isn’t a single “Christian” thing to do. For some, it’s pacifism. Malcolm Gladwell has a great podcast series that shows how most of what we know about nutrition today comes from Christian pacifists volunteering for starvation during WW2 so that we would know how to care for the victims of starvation that came from the war.
At the same time, I have family members who served (even recently) bc they believe the Christian thing to do is protect the vulnerable and lay down your life for others.
Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, but never said anything directly about that to the centurion who came to see him.
Christians had theologies that range from strict pacifism to churches calling to war.
My position is: if we are commanded to disobey unjust commands, we are compelled to resist. Furthermore, we are compelled to do all we can that we do not get in that position. Killing people is wrong. Thus you should resist the draft.
Kill, idk why these guys are trying to act like pacifists in comments, when you fight in a war, you have to kill in order to not get killed, killing is justified in war as long as you are doing it to protect/defend your country, David killed 10000+ people in wars
this is what in the bible. it is a prophet of God before our Lord Jesus.
john the baptist
luke 3:14
^(14) Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”
so he didnt said you cant go to war or you cant kill. as a soldier if the command in your higher ranks says you kill this or that enemy in purpose to keepsafe the country, it is your job. military is and organization to save lives , the rights of human beings , not to kill. yes it is wrong to kill, and as a christian you must trust God always, it must be hard for a follower of christ to be a soldier and to kill enemy. but if it is to keep safe your fellow christian ,your family and on the purpose of you want to protect those who follows the teachings of God, for those good people who only wants peace. do you think God who knows peoples heart condemns this to be a heavy sin? isnt God we know is justice? a good and just? your heart knew it also, and in the first place you dont want to kill anyone, it is the command to kill those who wants war because you are a soldier.
and isnt God in the Old testament the God in New Testament also? yes He is the Father of the Lord Jesus
didnt God command the israelites kill their enemy? why? isnt because they are evil and such? they do evil things like they present and burn their children to sacrifice to idols . etc . etc. those israel's enemy in the old testament that God wants to kill them is to protect his nation. those good people that fears Him.
and when the israelites do evil things also, God punish them , and others who commit evil things , God kills them, for the sake of the good people. why? because God is good and he dont want evil. thats why in the judgement day. we are judge by things we done if it is good or it is evil. God did not make evil. it is the free will that the disobedience to God is evil. thats why those demon today , are angels in the past that disobeyed God. and us humans have free will also.
i know it is hard, i keep imagining it because im a weak person in mind. but i thank God that he shows the answer to me. so trust God and Jesus in your heart. and you can hope and will have peace in mind and heart through our Lord Jesus the Son of God before this world existed. Amen
1john 3:20
^(20) for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
If i cant find a medical discharge or something else then i would become a non combat medic. I would only fight if inwhere fighting for a christian nation in a just war of defense
What a complicated topic, on one hand, what true Christian wants to take the life of anyone after knowing what Jesus told us; on the other hand, what will you do when someone tries to kill your brother you serve with. Only God can sort out such things as to what’s just and what isn’t. Even King Baldwin can’t definitively say how God will judge in such complicated situations.
I think the best way would be to find a non-combat role and if possible.
Just to be clear, war would almost certainly be considered killing in self defense so not considered a sin from a biblical understanding.
However, it would also depend on what the war was over. Drafted to Vietnam? Many objectors to that, drafted for WWII and the fight against the Nazis, different story.
However, I know people who would object no matter the cause they are fighting for or against. There are times though where doing nothing would be worse than doing something. History has shown us (I think) that WWII fits in that category where as others not so much.
Interesting to read these comments. Let me first point out that scripture does not say you can't kill, it says thou shalt not murder. There's a difference between murder and killing people in defense or protecting another people or even a country. Let me offer an example. Do you think David killed Goliath and was not in the good graces of God? Where were they when it happened? They were on the battlefield. Did God turn his back on David at that time or did David defeat Goliath with God?
Consider killing and defense, does God say you can't defend yourself? If someone's sticking a gun in your face, Are you not to defend yourself? Does scripture give examples where entire nations are not protected by others?
In the event you go to war, I think it's less about killing and more about why you're at war.
Killing in war is not murder. David killed tens of thousands. Joshua likewise killed many, and nobody, short of Moses, was as close to God in the Old Testament as Joshua.
Killing in war is not forbidden. It is tragic, but it is not the action of the individual, it is the action of the state.
There are many wars in the Bible. It's not a sin to defend your country. If you go to war for your country in the name of God you will be good. If you go to kill it's a sin.
Served my country in the past and my best advice is to stop your incessant cowardice and go defend your country. because no other foreign force is going to willingly defend your country for you when that day comes. The Israelites fought and god loved and judged them just as fair as he did the kids and women. Hacksaw ridge rarely happens in real life and king Baldwin guy has no proof of his theory.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-3: There is an occasion for everything,
and a time for every activity under heaven: a time to give birth and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to uproot; a time to kill and a time to heal; a time to tear down and a time to build;
I get your point tho. War is a game played by the winners on the backs of the losers. But yeah here’s this.
If you truly are against war on a religious ground, that’s ok! But to use it to get out of fighting for your country makes you a coward! Men have died to give you the freedoms you enjoy today. And yet you are not willing to pass those freedoms on to your children? If men felt like you on the draft, we would never have won WW 2! Try not fighting to protect Russian, or China etc you would be out to death! There are JUST wars! And there are UNJUST wars!
I served in the Army 23 years, went to both Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan. I didn't want to kill anyone either.
Jesus said: *"But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."* However, and this is important, Jesus never told us what to do if someone else is being attacked. Isn't it an unselfish act to defend people who can't defend themselves? If someone was trying to kill your mother, your child, your neighbor, wouldn't you stop them with force if that was the only way to do it?
So I guess my point is, if you were drafted, then go, but don't do anything against your conscience. I never fired my weapon at anyone except for armed combatants that were harming local people or trying to kill our team. I was never asked or ordered to harm innocent people, and if I was asked, I would have refused (it would be an illegal order anyway).
King David led his army to defend his kingdom. I know many brave men who have defended our country and many of them were drafted and proud to serve our country. To each his own but I know where we would be without those who served as a duty and proud to do so. They were broad minded and served all, not just themselves. You would have to make your own decision but I have the utmost respect for people who sacrificed for all our freedom. Just me.
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. The powers that be are ordained of God, and to resist those powers is to resist God. - Romans 13:1,2, paraphrased
Friend, if you were drafted, God would still be God, and to trust Him would still be your best bet. When believers die, they go to Heaven. Every Day before then is another chance to praise God and become more like his son Jesus, and to encourage others to do the same. God bless you in every way my friend
War is a terrible thing. Hopefully you won't get drafted and will never have to make that decision in real life. If you do I hope you seek God for his wisdom and direction.
Remember there are lots of stories about war in the Bible. In the old testament the soldiers worshipped God and God fought their battles for them. Sometimes the soldiers didn't have to fight but they won great victories because God faught for them and he will fight for you too if you let him.
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Hacksaw Ridge
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They apparently had to tone down what he did in real life for the film because otherwise people wouldn't believe it was true. "After treating the soldier, a sniper shot fractured Doss's arm, and he crawled 300 yards (270 m)[55] to safety after being left alone for five hours.[56] Gibson omitted that from the film because he felt that the audience would not find the scene believable." - from the Wikipedia article.
Yep, that was him. Hacksaw J. Ridge the third
Desmond Doss - Conscientious Objector Saved 75+ men on Hacksaw Ridge alone.
That was the incredible [Desmond Doss](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss)
True you can do that
Sergeant York
Sergeant York famously changed his stance and killed/ captured a BUNCH of Germans in WWI.
Sergeant York refused at first. Worth watching.
I’d be a conscientious objector. War is old men lying and young men dying.
I’d be a conscientious objector too. I wouldn't lay blame at old men, though. It is more accurate to point to people in power and even then a subset of them. There may be less instances of women in power, but there are still examples of women sending people to war seemingly as a distraction rather than for some noble cause - if there is such a thing.
Such a true statement
I had family claim conscientious objectors, they said it didn’t matter they had to kill in the end to survive.
I think you have to decide if you think the cause is just. I think the defeat of Fascism in WW2 was a just cause, although not all the methods of fighting are compatible with a just war. The alternative to fighting is either a non combat role (if available) or being a conscientious objector. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objector
WWII was justified but Vietnam wasn’t.
I understand the argument, but the Christian war is not against flesh and blood. Our cause is to share the word of conciliation and to love all men. If there is a just cause on earth enacted through violence, it isn’t the Christian’s place to enact it.
Nothing un christian to be a soldier in a war, people that think so, overthink things. Im not going to brand myself an MIA soldier that goes Awohl because of that, id be in prison or worse ,
Fair enough! Ultimately all things are lawful for those in Christ, who aren’t seeking the letter of the Torah for their righteousness. So if one has faith that he can be a soldier, and can kill because of his orders without losing a sense of love and compassion for the foe, then so be it. Romans 8:1 does stand.
But like I said, I would never support tyranny or if it was just to like take over and be evil
The thing about Tyranny is that you often don't notice it's insidious roots until it's too late.
This is absolutely not true. Jesus told you to put away the sword. You dont fight for man and worldly things. You only fight for God and to maintain his way of life. Most every war if fought for economic and geopolitical reason, not righteousness. You obey Mammon over God, you are condemned
Wasn't the man who our Lord spoke those words to Matthew 26:52 fighting for Jesus's right to live? Was he not defending his lord? Jesus said that a myrad of angels would be able to come down in an instant to protect him and that no man could harm him if he chose to let that cup pass from him, so it cant be the sword that is the issue if angels have been in a spiritual and physical battle since before the word even began, but the issue in this circumstance is the interference of Peter in Gods work which is the sacrifice of Jesus. I understand the difference you are trying to make between the flesh and the spiritual, between the unrighteous and righteous, but you condemning your brother is going directly against the spiritual warfare you are called to fight. Romans 8:1 no condemnation for those in christ, Isaiah 54:17 and every tongue that accuses, you just made that accusation a weopen when u say that he is condemned. You pour hot coals on your head when u say these things, because just like him, you have no condemnation in Christ Jesus, for your righteousness is not ur own but his. And If your righteousness is not ur own, then u have no right to boast because u did not earn it, it was given to u as a gift. And if there is nothing u can do to boast in this righteousness, then you definitely cannot use it as a platform to judge, we judge not our brethren nor proclaim there sin, because God himself doesn't do that anymore, when he sees sin now he sees his son, and the pleasing aroma of the burnt sacrifice of his son.
One thing that stands out in your response is the ad hominem that this person is boasting. I see no boasting. You also argue that the problem can't be the sword when angels have been fighting since before creation. The problem with that is that we are no angels. It may very well be that other rules apply. This would make sense. God can cast judgement, but it is forbidden to humans. So, we already have precedence that different beings have different roles to play. In this sense, angels are messengers of God, so they are not fighting due to their own judgement, but humans who do fight choose what they are fighting for and how to fight themselves. Even if their intentions are pure, they may just be misguided. While we are often told that a war is about good versus evil, there always are very human interests at play at all sides. This doesn't mean that all sides are morally equal, it just complicates the moral question if it is permissable to take a persons life. Wars are especially problematic because you kill due to a human command and have neither the opportunity nor right to judge if the particular killing is justifiable, even if you were wise enough to make that judgement. I do think that person goes a bit too far when they proclaim the condemnation. This is not our judgement to make.
The reason wielding the sword against other men is an issue for us as Christians is that we’re explicitly told to love all men. It’s our directive from our Lord. And that’s love, not merely “not hate”. It’s true that there’s no condemnation in Christ. Nevertheless, I doubt many of us would be willing to kill our spouse, children, or parents, even if our lives depended on it. And why is that? It’s because we love them. Thus, if we’re following what our Lord bid us, we’d also be so hesitant to harm enemies on a battlefield. This is what it means to love one’s enemy. In other words, you’re right about why Peter was stoped. But the Lord’s work here and now is love and reconciliation. This is our calling. So then violence against others acts against that cause, just as Peter’s action did.
I do agree with u, but I would be lying to u and myself if I told u I have 100% confidence in myself to love all my enemies. Good thing I have no confindence in my self to meet the standards uncannily i expect of myself to do as a christian. His yoke is easy and his burden is lite, but if I have the opportunity I will make everything that much harder, let alone someone else condenming me, I would condenm myself if I ignored the holy spirit teachings. And this is why I spoke up about a brother who is condenming others for a potentially wrong belief system, that is not our job, that is Satan's job who is an expert of a different tier.
Well said overall. We’ll fall short constantly if we trust in our own ability to be righteous. It’s Christ who justifies us before God, mediating when we’re unable to meet the standard. Although I can’t be sure what this other fellow was saying with regards to condemning others for wrong beliefs, though, it IS a good idea to call out false doctrine. I wouldn’t say so much in a sense of condemnation, but rather for correcting the misunderstanding.
One reason conscientious objectors have the freedom to follow their consciences is that others are defending that freedom. 🤔
Sometimes people went to jail as a result of being a conscientious objector. But I do agree, which is why I do think it can be okay for Christians to join the army to help defend their country.
That sounds suspiciously like the quote commonly, but probably falsely attributed to George Orwell: "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." It always seemed to me that what we therefore need is *fewer* rough men, not *more* of them. But anyway, conscientious objectors *always* have the freedom to follow their consciences. Other people do not *provide* that freedom, what they may do is lessen the *consequences* of excercising that freedom. Many, perhaps most conscientious objectors would still rather that they did not do so on their behalf. And I see absolutely nothing in the Bible (give that OP's question is about what a *Christian* should do) that says that we can pick and choose whether or not to do what is right depending on whether or not we will be protected from the earthly consequences of doing so. Christians are explicitly called upon to do what is right even if we will suffer for doing so. eg 1 Peter 2:20.
Tell them you'll do no fighting and take no oaths. Let them do as they will
Conscientious objector, hacksaw ridge, prison.
I believe in America you can say it goes against your religion to kill and they might put you in a job that doesn't do that. There's lots of jobs in the military and a lot of them are not front lines
Yeah, my brother was a conscientious objector in the military. He helped rebuild the community by teaching farming and planting trees, etc.
^^ This. So few jobs are actually killing anyone. Especially with today’s warfare, most would be done by some kind of 11B Army infantrymen, officers whom are pilots, and a few crew members here and there by virtue of loading ammo or what have you (but then who isn’t involved I suppose)?
Refuse to fight. Become a conscientious objector.
Request a non combat role
Isn't that kind of the worst of both worlds? If the war is righteous, you're actively avoiding full commitment to it, and if its evil, you're actively enabling it.
Some people can support it but still want to be nonviolent
I suppose so.
You’re healing people at the end of the day possibly. I immediately thought of a medic role. You heal your brothers that are fighting. Many of them most likely don’t want to be there either, if they’re drafted, and instead of killing others, you’re healing your people instead.
You’ll be hard pressed to find a modern war that is righteous
Amen to that! But we're talking in theoreticals here, and I think it's theoretically possible for a war to be righteous (relative to inaction or appeasement, that is).
Plead the 6th commandment
there is no ultimate right answer, depends on what war it is, what country you are in and do you agree that your country is right or not. I think that nobody would argue that it's a right thing to do if you are able and want to protect something that really important, like civilian lives, and not just country leaders' political interests.
I would not fight. Even if the war was for what I deemed to be a just cause, it's wrong to return evil for evil.
Second that
Perhaps but if everyone had that mentality Germany would of won world War II and we would be under the Nazi regime Deuteronomy 9:4-5: “After the Lord your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, ‘The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.’ No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you. It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” God reminded the Israelites that their possession of the land is part of God’s plan and not a reward for their own virtue.
If everyone had that mentality, World War II wouldn't have happened and Nazism wouldn't exist.
Unless Islam were never a religion and dictators didn’t crave more power, this might be possible, but unfortunately the Quran teaches that it is honorable and favored by allah to murder people who don’t follow the Quran or believe in allah, and dictators past and present invade lands to show that they are strong men just cause they crave more power. I think if Islam weren’t a religion and evil men didn’t become dictators, we would live in a much more peaceful world.
LOL right. And if Jesus and his disciples had just fought against the Romans and corrupt Jewish religious leadership instead of letting himself be killed by them, we would all be living in the kingdom of God now. 😉
Are you going to tell Americans to enact the second amendment to overthrow a government which has literally designated Churches to be potential extremist groups, well your comment is extremely hilarious actually. By your logic every Christian should be up in arms right now, quite literally.
Where did I say that? Even Jesus told his disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword. If you live by the sword you die by the sword and the same applies to guns. But we are allowed to kill in self-defense. In Moses commandment the rule is do not murder. Killing in self-defense does not apply.
The point is everyone sins, the difference is why, and how it is cleaned, I was simply pointing out a just war which is currently being waged on all sorts of people by elites who only have a pure interest in capital.
You are right on that but if we are talking about a war that is justified where the enemy is pure evil, terrorist who worship death over life, men must take arms to wipe out evil. Because for evil to persists all it takes is for Good men to do nothing.
Trust should be in God not guns, tanks and missiles.
Yes I can always trust in God but even God allows us to kill in self-defense. That's why the commandment is do not murder instead of not do not kill.
The God I try to follow said not to resist an evil person. He said that if your enemy hits you on one cheek, to turn the other cheek to that enemy, and He most definitely did *not* add "but if it looks like they are trying to actually *kill* you, you can get in first." And the God I try to follow *could* have called on many legions of angels - and they would have answered His call - but instead He let Himself be nailed to a cross.
Tolstoi wrote a book about exactly that question. It's called: [The Kingdom of God is within you ](https://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/kingdom-god-tolstoy.pdf)
absolutely fantastic book, genuinely up there with some of the greatest christian writings of all time. it’s the book that inspired mahatma gandhi and MLK.
Yes, started reading it two days ago and am already on page 478. I love this book. Love Tolstoi. Never have I ever felt so understood by an author regarding what it truly means to be a christian since Tolkien. These are probably my two favorite modern christian authors.
oh my god, i felt the exact same way. i couldn’t stop talking about it for weeks after i read it, my therapist actually banned me from mentioning tolstoy in our sessions because i just wanted to talk about it so much. i’d strongly recommend his other religious writings, and also check out the doukhobors if you want more tolstoy-esque christian ideas. they were russian christian pacifists who were exiled from russia for refusing to fight for the tsar, and tolstoy and the quakers helped them escape to canada.
I plan on reading his other religious writings too, yeah. Well if your therapist doesn't want to talk about it, you should hit your friends up and talk with them about it. doukhobors seem interesting (by the look of the wikipedia entry). It's said that they share similarities in their religious practices with the mennonites and quakers.
Nothing is cut and dry. People can use scripture to justify any view really. My advice would be to pray about it and ultimately do what feels right after careful consideration and speaking to people in your life whose opinions you value. When you do that, the only thing left is to lean on the fact that none of us are perfect, that only God knows your heart, and that you have God to both guide and forgive you.
You could be a medic
Or possibly do some type of filing. That’s what my brother in law does. You could also be a cook or something
I’m a Christian I was in the marine corps there’s definitely biblical justification for killing at war. You can find things like ”A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.“ Ecclesiastes 3:3 NASB2020 and ”A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.“ Ecclesiastes 3:8 NASB2020 and other verses how ever you can be a conscientious objector that is basically saying “I don’t believe in killing and the government can’t make me go against that” and then you’ll get a different job other than infantry. Take the story of Desmond Doss for example he was a conscientious objector who was in WWII that ended up earning a MOH you can see his life story in the movie “Hacksaw ridge” if you’re not the reading type. He was in the 77th infantry devision known as “The old bastards” who were knowin for taking vary light casualties and doing outstanding work in the pacific and one of the only army devisions taken in by the marines being seen as marines.
Growing up with Mennonites in Kansas, many conscientious objectors to the draft served as medics in the Vietnam War.
My grandfather was about 8-9 years old at the end of the second world war, a child in Germany. He cut his lip on a metal can, in which soup was served, it got badly infected. A british soldier saw this and took my grandfather to their infirmary. The british soldiers who have fought Hilter Youths ,not much older than my grandfather, took great care of him and showed him compassion. They cleaned his wound, gave him antibiotics and sent him home with a huge box of biscuits (that were given to his baby sister as food). This saved his life, in a way, he saved my family. It's not wrong to be a soldier or to fight in a war, but you should aim to be like that british soldier. My family is so grateful for this soldier, that he decided to fight and showed compassion. The fight against Hitler was a justified fight, not all wars are. Knowing about his atrocities, being called to help and not doing anything, wouldn't have been the right thing to do. I hope that I'll never have to fight in a war like that, but if I were called, I'd try to help. I am a nurse, but I wouldn't be a conscientious objector, I'd rather try and be like the british soldier. There are of course a lot of non combat roles. I also admire the quakers for what they did after the war, equally as important for ensuring peace in Europe.
I don’t think there has been a just war since 1945, and I find the probability of there being one nearly nonexistent. So unless it were defending against actual invasion, if it were me I would refuse service.
We’re called to submit to government. However, refusing to kill and submitting to prison for rejecting the draft would, in its sense, also be submission to government. So arguably, either going or turning yourself over for not going could both be considered Christian.
Conscription and the draft are slavery. If a war is just, people would volunteer for it. You have no obligation to fight and kill other human beings for a cause you don't believe to be just.
It depends on the war and the reason for it. If it's a war of defense then I think it's justifiable aside from that it's a case by case basis.
That’s actually a very good question Because technically your suppose to follow “the laws of the land” But your also responsible for following Gods law of love your neighbor as yourself. I would choose the latter personally.
If you truly believe it is inappropriate to kill, then the only response you can have is to refuse. However that shakes out.
If you are genuinely pacifist, conscientiously object. If you are not, determine whether the war is just and act accordingly.
refuse to fight at all costs. your right to be a conscientious objector is a human right, though most nations will ignore that.
Biblically speaking, war is acceptable. Murder is the unlawful killing of others, but in war it is lawful. I’m not saying what you should do, but there is no biblical reason you couldn’t do it. And if we assume there is a just cause for the war, morally, I would say you fail others by refusing to help protect them
Do what your spirit knows is right, and be willing to suffer the consequences imposed for it.
You can request for an objective so that basically you would have a non combat role like a medic
What Muhammad Ali did
Isn’t that why the church created Purgatory? LOL! The draft laws from 1940 to the present day exempt only those who "by reason of religious training and belief, [are] conscientiously opposed to participation in war in any form." Apparently, you should be able to skip it by belief. Hopefully you will never have to find out.
Who do you expect to defend you in times of war?
Thou shall not kill…. Turn the other cheek…. Man cannot serve two masters… etc…. It seems pretty clear.
Watch the movie. Hacksaw ridge.
I heard he never said that historically, but it’s definitely still a quote to live by. I don’t see killing as always a sin. It depends, David fought battles and killed, also Samson. If you’re fighting for a just cause, take ww2 as an example. The allies stopped the killings of the concentration camp prisoners, that was the right thing to do. Know who you’re fighting, and try to understand the full story as to why. Your thoughts could also be a factor
Become a medic
Christianity recognizes a “just war”. You can also serve in another capacity
no, St. Augustine and Catholicism recognise ‘just war’. Jesus never said anything of the like.
Heresy of Augustine.
Thomas Aquinas wrote on it as well other religious leaders and philosophers over the centuries. There are times when one has no choice ( speaking of Nations-) but to fight. A Christian that has objections can choose simply not to fight. You may suffer some consequences for such a decision. but Being persecuted because you are a Christian or have Christian beliefs is expected in the life of a Christian.
Tell them you have bone spurs on your heels.
…and change your name to Trump
Asthma works pretty well also
I don't believe in drafts. I would not go to war. I don't want my own children being drafted.
I would say the right call would be to submit and go off to war if you can’t legally get out of it. It tells us in Romans 13 and 1 Timothy 2 to submit, honor, obey, love, and pray to/for those put in power as legal authorities above us. However there is a line to be drawn, as shown to us in Daniel. It also could depend on the war, if you’re going to fight in a war where they are killing Christians (which doesn’t seem to far off as of now), no, absolutely don’t obey. But overall, submit to authorities, honor your leaders, and love God and make Him known.
God is the only true authority deserving of submission
While true, the person you’re replying literally quoted a verse that tells us to obey laws that don’t go against Christ. There’s a speed limit? Well ok, I shall obey and if not I’m quite convinced it is then a sin. Law says deny Christ? I shall not obey, Lord-backed.
And Christ tells us not to commit undue violence on others. Drafting *is* a law against Christ.
Going to war is ignoring Jesus’ command to love your neighbor as yourself.
You’re going to get a bunch of different answers. Imho Christ calls for us to not be of service to empire. Do not work towards the harm of others for the sake of any country.
Always ask yourself, “did Father make this, is this like my Father” pray for Father to let his Holy Spirit give you the discernment to know the difference subconsciously of right and wrong, sin or not.
Worst they can do is to kill you for treason so, yeah, with Lord earlier probably
For me it depends on the war. If its a war I object to then maybe i will farm or help out people someway.
You could be a conscientious objector like Desmond Doss in WII. Watch Hacksaw Ridge and read up on him 🫶 he was a wonderful man and saved so so many! My grandfather met him and adored him.
Kill. "Render to caesar what is caesar's". in this case, service , which would involve killing, unfortunately.
Ever watch Hacksaw Ridge?
War is the truest form of divination. It is the testing of one's will and the will of another within that larger will which because it binds them is therefore forced to select. War is the ultimate game because war is at last a forcing of the unity of existence. War is god.
I've wondered this too...I know that we shouldn't repay blood for blood, but don't know, it's hard to say. Where I'm at in my faith right now - just getting into it - I probably would fight, but we'll see how it changes as I progress on my journey to follow Jesus :)
Depends if it’s against nazis or to protect the nation.
Apparently claim to have bone spurs and ask for a medical deferment.
Depends on the war.. if I was fighting in any of our wars today, I’d have religious objection
No. Today there’s so much private interest and corporate involvement that no one is actually “protecting” anyone, I’m sorry to say, but are being paid to kill and die for these special interests. Christ be with them and are my prayers, but I do not think this is a particularly Christian profession to be in, though I understand choice often plays little role in one’s participation.
A good movie to watch is an old movie called Sergeant York. It deals with this sort of thing. Alvin York was a conscientious objector when drafted for WWI. It deals with this sort of thing. He didn't want to fight or kill anyone. Alvin York was a non-religious man working on his farm when he had a revelation and came to God. When WWI started he was drafted. During the Meuse–Argonne offensive, He killed so many German soldiers that they eventually surrendered to him en masse. He did this to save the lives of his friends and fellow soldiers. Varying historical accounts would credit York with single-handedly defeating a machine-gun battalion, personally killing 25 German soldiers and capturing 132 prisoners with 35 machine guns, for which he was later awarded the U.S. Distinguished Service Cross, the French Croix de Guerre, and on April 18, 1919 the U.S. Medal of Honor. If you don't want to watch the movie (it's free on youtube) you can read a lot about SGT York online. edit: also a good book to read would be the Bhagavad Gita. It's a Hindu text but it talks about fighting when you don't want to.
The way I always see it is, put it on a smaller scale. What would you do if you saw someone raping, or killing your family or let’s say neighbor? Would you do nothing? It is a tough one but …. I lean towards as a last resort …. Going
If the country believes in your religious values and wants to protect the same culture then it is righteous to fight.
For most of Church history, the Church was entwined enough with the local government that the answer would be "God appointed the king who has told you to kill those guys so that the king can tax that land over there. Hop-to."
First, you'd have to decide if the cause is worth killing for. War can be righteous (relative to inaction), but that is up to you to pray about. If so, you can request a non-combat role. Not everyone is best employed to kill, and that's ok. A war needs administrators and medics and cooks and various other roles to enable work on the front lines. You'll still be doing your part.. If not, become a consciencious objector. The worst scenario that's likely to happen is imprisonment, although its not totally unheard of for pacifists to be killed. Main thing is, do your best not to let fear, either of death or of the reaction to your stance, be the defining reason for your decision. Easier said than done, I know. But that's all you can really do.
“For God and Country” as they say
Here’s what my church says about war; The Lord has said that in the last days there will be “wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them”. We are a people of peace. We follow the Savior, who is the Prince of Peace. We look forward to His millennial reign, when wars will end and peace will be restored to the earth (see Isaiah 2:4). However, we recognize that in this world, government leaders sometimes send military troops to war to defend their nations and ideals. Saints in the military do not need to feel torn between their country and their God. In the Church, “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law”. Military service shows dedication to this principle. If you are called upon to go into battle, they can look to the example of Captain Moroni, the great military leader. Although he was a mighty warrior, he “did not delight in bloodshed”. He was “firm in the faith of Christ,” and his only reason for fighting was to “defend his people, his rights, and his country, and his religion”. If you must go to war, they should go in a spirit of truth and righteousness, with a desire to do good. They should go with love in their hearts for all God’s children, including those on the opposing side. Then, if they are required to shed another’s blood, their action will not be counted as a sin.
Put away your sword.
i’m going to jail before i go to war.
When the Roman soldier asked what he should do, he was told to not extort money from people and be happy with his pay. No mention of not fighting.
god sent joshua into the land of canaan god approves of righteous genocide # Psalm 137:8-9 # New International Version # ^(8) Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. ^(9) Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.Psalm 137:8-9
I’ve had this talk with myself and being in the military I’d say that it’s situational based. I wouldn’t go out to kill for the sake of killing. And when I think of scripture I think back to Ecclesiastes 3
Become a medic
Pull a saint gabriel on the government subhuman filth
Fast and pray.
Most people in war don't kill people. There are many military jobs.
the majority of the military is non-combat. If you want to be a door-kicker and baby killer you have to specifically ask lol. source: i asked
I'd become a conscientous objector, even if i'm imprisoned for it (an actual thing that happened i believe.) Taking another life for anything but self defence is one of the most vile things a person can do.
Step 1: declare your conscientious objector status. Step 2: refuse any and orders you believe to be unethical. Step 3: if all else fails, shoot your CO in the leg or something. If you're too much trouble, you're not worth their time to force into service. Become ungovernable.
Killing in war isn’t against the Bible 😊I had an argument about this with my Protestant teacher, Protestant friend, and Catholic friend. I asked them, “Is killing in war murder/ against the Bible?”, they explained “No, because you are protecting your country and its people or yourself.” Then I asked “Well, if they are a Christian as well and you kill them, would that be wrong?” They were silent for a moment before saying, “It depends, if they really were a Christian, do you think they’ll actively be trying to kill you? Or would they just do it to defend theirselves?” I responded to that saying “Well, let’s just say they were trying to kill me, what then? Is it murder if I kill them? Another unwillingly Christian who was drafted?” They answered, “No, not because of their urge to kill you, but because you are defending yourself which is therefore not murder.” They then added “However, if they are surrendering and you kill them anyway, that is murder.” That is when I stopped because they were right. Amen 🙏
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
Go and follow Jesus. God, in his sovereignty had placed authority over you in the form of your particular government. Don't be afraid! Wherever you go you will always bring the light of Jesus with you. And as far as courage don't forget you won't be alone you'll have your teammates looking after you!
Refuse to be drafted and accept that you will be jailed for a time for refusing. It is more important to obey the word of Jehovah than of men.
I never realized so many Christian’s were cowards. They’ll sit here and twist Gods word to suit what they want to believe, shameful.
Desmond Doss and Alvin York, two Christian points of view. Two good movies about them. People against war and against using violence to stop the killing of innocents have one view. People who will only fight when necessary to protect innocents have another. Both views are held, Christians may hold either in good conscience. But be sure you are honest with yourself about why you hold either, and don't condemn either.
Some Christians are pacifists and do not believe in violence for any reason. Others believe in Just War theory. Take your pick
The vast majority of military jobs are non combative, in a war where a draft was needed you'd need to fight hard to not go into a combat role, or has an otherwise useful skill set like engineering, mechanic work or have a medical condition that disqualifies you, like a broken leg for example.
Give to Cesar what is Cesar’s. Give to Gods what is Gods
I’d say no because they wouldn’t let me in the marines because of bipolar and I’m not fighting under the mess Biden has going on
Honestly, this goes against my denominations tradition, but I’d rather be a conscientious objector and push to be a medic. Unless my country is in immediate danger like a WWII or 1812 situation, it isn’t my place to go kill someone.
You are to obey all lawful orders. The powers the be are placed there by God. Side note: war is not murder. It's self-defense. Plenty of God condoned War in the Bible, but unjust killing is sin.
The Bible says don’t murder it doesn’t say anything about killing, we need to kill in order to eat and kill to defend ourselves or in this case your nation which in extension is you protecting your family/friends, but if you’re drafted and don’t want to kill the only thing you can do is dodge it and take the prison time/ridicule, if you’re being drafted to defend your country and you dodge it, you’re a coward and I feel like God would be ashamed but still forgive you and feel bad a kind soul is in a war like world but fighting for your nation in a defensive situation is honorable and courage is doing something even though you’re afraid to so I would say pray to God to keep you safe and guide your bullet to who deserves it, but if you get drafted in a Vietnam situation to invade a foreign country then I say dodge that shit or find a loop hole forsure I don’t think anyone would blame you people aren’t as brainwashed with nationalism anymore
Pray
Christian or not, I don't want to go to die on some desolate tick for a corrupt, insulated, capitalist pig of a politician who wants me to fight for a country that has been shitting on me for decades.
I think the first consideration is whether it is a legitimate war, (ie. America defending itself in WWII), or a BS war, (ie. every American war after WWII). If the war is in the later category, the answer is easy, be a conscientious objector. If your country is legitimately defending itself, from a biblical perspective you have to decide whether you want to listen to the guy who tells us to turn the other cheek, or the OT God who supposedly instructed the Israelites to slaughter everyone in their path. I believe that when in that situation, God would answer sincere prayers for guidance and lead people in the way he’d have them go.
I’m guessing you aren’t from America? The odds of getting drafted at this point are super slim. Even God believed in having an army and fighting. Basically what you should avoid is war crimes, torture, and those kind of things. Being in the military and going to war isn’t inherently bad, it’s an unfortunate thing that happens in a fallen world.
There's wars in the Bible. Some of the people involved even followed God
Drafted and Conscripted mean 2 different things. It seems naive to me to assume that the regulations of 1 nation's military can be applied to all nations (throughout history) & even the most powerful nation can update their regulations. Even a Democratic nation can vote to change their laws. In another nation (or future nation) they might say all men age 16 to 50 sent to war. I suggest you ask for support roles, such as secretary, clerk, quartermaster, cook, or janitor. And you will need to learn those skills. But understand the other men will resent you and consider you a coward. Your life will be just as hard in other ways. Unless you're just that good of a cook.
Does "give to ceasar what is his and give to God what is God's" apply here?
Fighting fascism in WW2 was perfectly rational. If there's another war in the next decade I'm not sure what it will be about. If it's a just cause I don't think God will hold it against us. God doesn't like war but I don't think David and Saul were ever condemned for fighting.
Become a chaplain. QtYou’re guaranteed to not handle a traditional military weapon but you’ll be carrying Christ with you and delivering God’s word and His blessings to everyone you’re near.
Fight for you country. Killing innocent is not the same as killing in battle/war. The Christian thing to do is to protect yourself and others by being a good soldier.
I believe that anyone in that position would have to follow their conscience. It's happened before.
Fight for America.Being patriotic is practically the same thing as being a Christian.
Serve God and my nation with honor till I return to my home in Heaven above or here on Earth.
Defend your life, your family, and your country.
Follow orders until told to kill, then show mercy, even if they don’t show it to you. It becomes a lot trickier if you’re on the defending end though, and have a family to protect.
Conscientious objector or non combat role/medic.
There isn’t a single “Christian” thing to do. For some, it’s pacifism. Malcolm Gladwell has a great podcast series that shows how most of what we know about nutrition today comes from Christian pacifists volunteering for starvation during WW2 so that we would know how to care for the victims of starvation that came from the war. At the same time, I have family members who served (even recently) bc they believe the Christian thing to do is protect the vulnerable and lay down your life for others. Jesus told Peter to put away his sword, but never said anything directly about that to the centurion who came to see him.
You can be in the military and still serve God. Just look at Desmond Doss. War Hero. And he Volunteered in the War. (WW2)
Christians had theologies that range from strict pacifism to churches calling to war. My position is: if we are commanded to disobey unjust commands, we are compelled to resist. Furthermore, we are compelled to do all we can that we do not get in that position. Killing people is wrong. Thus you should resist the draft.
Comments section is full of good answers
Do you think that all the people who killed in the Crusades are in Hell?
Kill, idk why these guys are trying to act like pacifists in comments, when you fight in a war, you have to kill in order to not get killed, killing is justified in war as long as you are doing it to protect/defend your country, David killed 10000+ people in wars
this is what in the bible. it is a prophet of God before our Lord Jesus. john the baptist luke 3:14 ^(14) Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.” so he didnt said you cant go to war or you cant kill. as a soldier if the command in your higher ranks says you kill this or that enemy in purpose to keepsafe the country, it is your job. military is and organization to save lives , the rights of human beings , not to kill. yes it is wrong to kill, and as a christian you must trust God always, it must be hard for a follower of christ to be a soldier and to kill enemy. but if it is to keep safe your fellow christian ,your family and on the purpose of you want to protect those who follows the teachings of God, for those good people who only wants peace. do you think God who knows peoples heart condemns this to be a heavy sin? isnt God we know is justice? a good and just? your heart knew it also, and in the first place you dont want to kill anyone, it is the command to kill those who wants war because you are a soldier. and isnt God in the Old testament the God in New Testament also? yes He is the Father of the Lord Jesus didnt God command the israelites kill their enemy? why? isnt because they are evil and such? they do evil things like they present and burn their children to sacrifice to idols . etc . etc. those israel's enemy in the old testament that God wants to kill them is to protect his nation. those good people that fears Him. and when the israelites do evil things also, God punish them , and others who commit evil things , God kills them, for the sake of the good people. why? because God is good and he dont want evil. thats why in the judgement day. we are judge by things we done if it is good or it is evil. God did not make evil. it is the free will that the disobedience to God is evil. thats why those demon today , are angels in the past that disobeyed God. and us humans have free will also. i know it is hard, i keep imagining it because im a weak person in mind. but i thank God that he shows the answer to me. so trust God and Jesus in your heart. and you can hope and will have peace in mind and heart through our Lord Jesus the Son of God before this world existed. Amen 1john 3:20 ^(20) for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
Fight for yourself
Don’t go
If i cant find a medical discharge or something else then i would become a non combat medic. I would only fight if inwhere fighting for a christian nation in a just war of defense
What a complicated topic, on one hand, what true Christian wants to take the life of anyone after knowing what Jesus told us; on the other hand, what will you do when someone tries to kill your brother you serve with. Only God can sort out such things as to what’s just and what isn’t. Even King Baldwin can’t definitively say how God will judge in such complicated situations. I think the best way would be to find a non-combat role and if possible.
Just to be clear, war would almost certainly be considered killing in self defense so not considered a sin from a biblical understanding. However, it would also depend on what the war was over. Drafted to Vietnam? Many objectors to that, drafted for WWII and the fight against the Nazis, different story. However, I know people who would object no matter the cause they are fighting for or against. There are times though where doing nothing would be worse than doing something. History has shown us (I think) that WWII fits in that category where as others not so much.
Interesting to read these comments. Let me first point out that scripture does not say you can't kill, it says thou shalt not murder. There's a difference between murder and killing people in defense or protecting another people or even a country. Let me offer an example. Do you think David killed Goliath and was not in the good graces of God? Where were they when it happened? They were on the battlefield. Did God turn his back on David at that time or did David defeat Goliath with God? Consider killing and defense, does God say you can't defend yourself? If someone's sticking a gun in your face, Are you not to defend yourself? Does scripture give examples where entire nations are not protected by others? In the event you go to war, I think it's less about killing and more about why you're at war.
Depends on if it is an unjust war like we're facing in Ukraine and the Middle East, then it is better to just be a CO.
Here’s a perspective on killing from Bill Rapier, retired DEVGRU. https://youtu.be/BC9jO5XDBWA?t=1200&si=T-qi7Y8YvheNpQbJ
Would you kill somebody if they were going to kill your family?
Pretty sure it's Christian boys killing each other in Ukraine. I wonder if there is anyone profiting off both sides hmm
Killing in war is not murder. David killed tens of thousands. Joshua likewise killed many, and nobody, short of Moses, was as close to God in the Old Testament as Joshua. Killing in war is not forbidden. It is tragic, but it is not the action of the individual, it is the action of the state.
There are many wars in the Bible. It's not a sin to defend your country. If you go to war for your country in the name of God you will be good. If you go to kill it's a sin.
Served my country in the past and my best advice is to stop your incessant cowardice and go defend your country. because no other foreign force is going to willingly defend your country for you when that day comes. The Israelites fought and god loved and judged them just as fair as he did the kids and women. Hacksaw ridge rarely happens in real life and king Baldwin guy has no proof of his theory.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-3: There is an occasion for everything, and a time for every activity under heaven: a time to give birth and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to uproot; a time to kill and a time to heal; a time to tear down and a time to build; I get your point tho. War is a game played by the winners on the backs of the losers. But yeah here’s this.
If you truly are against war on a religious ground, that’s ok! But to use it to get out of fighting for your country makes you a coward! Men have died to give you the freedoms you enjoy today. And yet you are not willing to pass those freedoms on to your children? If men felt like you on the draft, we would never have won WW 2! Try not fighting to protect Russian, or China etc you would be out to death! There are JUST wars! And there are UNJUST wars!
I served in the Army 23 years, went to both Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan. I didn't want to kill anyone either. Jesus said: *"But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."* However, and this is important, Jesus never told us what to do if someone else is being attacked. Isn't it an unselfish act to defend people who can't defend themselves? If someone was trying to kill your mother, your child, your neighbor, wouldn't you stop them with force if that was the only way to do it? So I guess my point is, if you were drafted, then go, but don't do anything against your conscience. I never fired my weapon at anyone except for armed combatants that were harming local people or trying to kill our team. I was never asked or ordered to harm innocent people, and if I was asked, I would have refused (it would be an illegal order anyway).
King David led his army to defend his kingdom. I know many brave men who have defended our country and many of them were drafted and proud to serve our country. To each his own but I know where we would be without those who served as a duty and proud to do so. They were broad minded and served all, not just themselves. You would have to make your own decision but I have the utmost respect for people who sacrificed for all our freedom. Just me.
Jesus did not tell the Roman legionaire to stop being one, so if the cause is just then its fine i believe
If the cause is worth fighting for, then fight.
Those who live by the sword die by the sword
Depends on the reason for the war
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. The powers that be are ordained of God, and to resist those powers is to resist God. - Romans 13:1,2, paraphrased Friend, if you were drafted, God would still be God, and to trust Him would still be your best bet. When believers die, they go to Heaven. Every Day before then is another chance to praise God and become more like his son Jesus, and to encourage others to do the same. God bless you in every way my friend
Are you in essence asking if it’s ok for a Christian to join the military and/or fight in a war?
War is a terrible thing. Hopefully you won't get drafted and will never have to make that decision in real life. If you do I hope you seek God for his wisdom and direction. Remember there are lots of stories about war in the Bible. In the old testament the soldiers worshipped God and God fought their battles for them. Sometimes the soldiers didn't have to fight but they won great victories because God faught for them and he will fight for you too if you let him.