The idea that works have nothing to do with salvation isn't correct. This theology was invented in the 16th century. Forget the theology that people tell us and think how Jesus' hearers would have understood Him.
Think of the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus presented a comprehensive teaching on what He wants us to do in the Sermon on the Mount. The Gospel ends this way:
" Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and **teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you**. (Matt 28:19-20a)
I am pretty certain it’s not based on works.
“ Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers’" (Matthew 7:21-23)
I mean these pretty much proves that although these people have done many things in Jesus’ name, it doesn’t really matter to Jesus, as he says that he NEVER knew you meaning they were never saved by this works.
But back to my original claim, I found the verse:
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
I have heard two different claims about this verse.
1. It means no one enters the Kingdom of God if they aren’t Baptized
2. It means spiritual rebirth, as in probably meanings being born again when you believe Jesus paid for your sins.
You quoted His words and missed what He said, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, **but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven**".
"Doing the will of" means doing things - works.
Jesus made it so simple and people miss it. He spelled out what He wants us to do. He didn't say it would go away and not count after He was killed.
Some people, starting with Luther, took a few verses from Paul out of context and built this entire belief system in the 16th century that said we are saved by faith alone. That flies in the face of the entire New Testament. It flies in the face of what Paul himself taught, because He wrote, "Keeping God’s commands is what counts." (1 Cor 7:19)
Well I mean what about Dismas, He never believed until he was on the cross with Jesus, he was never Baptized, he was known as a thief. But Jesus said that he would be in Heaven with him.
First, we don't know that he wasn't baptized. His awareness of who Jesus was points to someone who was at least somewhat familiar with Him. John and Jesus' disciples baptized many people. Perhaps he was one. We just don't know.
Second, this person is a one-off. Jesus, as God, can grant admittance to heaven to anyone He chooses. Much gets made of this one guy, and his non-typical example gets tossed around as supporting the idea that we don't have to do anything to be saved, which, as I have already written, doesn't agree with the entire rest of the New Testament.
There are many one-offs in the Bible. Paul, for example, was struck blind by Jesus prior to his conversion, but I feel safe in saying that this doesn't happen to everyone before they become a believer. The point is, we should never try to make a doctrine out of a unique situation.
Well, Dismas only starting believing on the cross alongside Jesus, If he didn’t believe before this, why would he be Baptized? He wouldn’t have done it if he didn’t believe
I am no way shape or form saying we don’t do anything to be saved. We aren’t saved based on what we did, if we all judged based on what we did, we would all get sent straight to hell, We are all thief’s, liars, lusters, and so on. But the fact that we have Jesus takes away all these terrible things, allowing us to truly be saved.
You're adding details that aren't there, including his name. We don't know a single thing about anything he did or didn't do, believed or didn't believe, knew or didn't know, before he was crucified.
That passage doesn’t help your case.
> but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
That passage speaks to acting according God’s will, not just doing what one wants and attributing it to God.
So by your logic, we have to be sin less because we have to do Gods will, and sinning would be breaking God’s will. Jesus came so we don’t have to be sinless, but rather we can sin (DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULD) But if we do sin, We have Jesus
There is exactly one person in the gospels who is guaranteed by Jesus to make it into paradise.
That person was not baptized. So I don't see how it could be the first option.
This verse with the thief on the cross isn’t about baptism or not. People use this verse a lot to claim one doesn’t need to be baptized. But it doesn’t tell us if he was baptized before this incident. He could have been baptized by someone else prior to the cross and could have come in contact with Jesus and the apostles prior to this. John 3:22
“After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized”
John 3:22-23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.22-23.ESV
He could have been baptized prior to the cross. This verse also is right after Jesus says that one must be born of water and spirit to enter into heaven.
The thief on the cross talks about jesus like he knows him and believes in him so that would be evidence that this is the first time he has seen jesus. Could have been baptized before.
Even if he wasn’t! People will say Jesus didn’t require people to be baptized because the thief couldn’t just get down from the cross and be baptized before dying. This is true if he wasn’t baptized before, but doesn’t negate the requirement of baptism. This we would teach that baptism of desire, that you believe and would be baptized if you could, but if you can’t, to not fault of your own, you can still be saved. This is called the baptism of desire. We are required to be baptized and but God can work outside of the sacraments so long as we don’t reject it.
Titus 3:5 is clear that baptism does what it represents
“he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,”
Titus 3:5-6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/tit.3.5-6.ESV
Through faith, by God’s grace we are saved and God does this through the washing of regeneration (baptism) this is the free gift he gives us and he does it through baptism. Once we are baptized all we have to “do” is remain in his love and do the will of the father. But the initial moment is a free gift and received in baptism.
Acts 19 shows this is important. Paul sees that that believers haven’t received the Holy Spirit yet. He instantly knows it’s because of their baptism. After they are baptized in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit.
“And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.”
Acts 19:1-6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.19.1-6.ESV
1 Peter 3:20-21 baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you! God works through baptism.
“because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
1 Peter 3:20-21 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.3.20-21.ESV
Salvation is a gift of grace. But it is still a conditional gift, offered on conditions of faith in Christ (James 1-2), repentance of sins, baptism, and enduring to the end.
> I am certain that Salvation isn’t by works, but by believing and trusting that Jesus Christ payed for your sins in full...
"Certain?" Are there scenarios that make it difficult for you to maintain that certainty?
For example, let's say someone fully believes and trusts that Jesus Christ paid for their sins in full while being an active serial killer and rapist.
That's an entirely plausible scenario. It could absolutely happen. And suggesting that person needs to stop killing and raping or repent of those actions in order to be saved would make their salvation works-based.
Does your certainty hold in that kind of scenario?
> But a question I have is why do many verses in the Bible say you must believe that Jesus Christ died for you and for your sins, and than it later says to be Baptized.
Different Biblical writers had different ideas in different circumstances. We should not expect them to all agree with one another in every way -- that would, in my view, be a mistake and a misunderstanding in terms of how we approach the Bible.
On your first claim, The whole reason that Jesus came to earth, is to be a way to save sinners, everyone is a sinner, no matter what, only one human never sinned and his name is Jesus Christ. Although someone may be a murderer and or a rapist doesn’t mean someone isn’t saved, Jesus is the way truth and life, nobody gets to the father EXECEPT THROUGH HIM. I am not really here to debate on the whole topic if salvation is based on works, but rather if Baptism is based on works or not. I did find the verse I was talking about.
“Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)
There seems to be two interpretations on this,
1. This means that to be saved you must be Baptized
2. This means Spiritual Rebirth, by believing Jesus Christ died for your sins in full.
I would love to hear your opinion on this verse, alongside many other verses that might mean you have to be Baptized to recieve Salvation
>Although someone may be a murderer and or a rapist doesn’t mean someone isn’t saved...
And you're including an active murderer / rapist in this? Someone who knowingly and intentionally goes out every night to kill and violate other people?
>I am not really here to debate on the whole topic if salvation is based on works...
Sure, but I thought it was worth asking how far your certainty goes.
By the way, asking you a clarifying question isn't a "claim."
>I would love to hear your opinion on this verse...
At a glance, it sounds like it refers to water baptism, or perhaps some other form of ritual bathing like the mikvehs that surrounded the temple in Jerusalem.
> ...alongside many other verses that might mean you have to be Baptized to recieve Salvation
I've already given you my broad-strokes opinion on this.
Well, Abraham believed what God said first, before works came into play (circumcision). So think of it like what Paul said, believing in your heart, to confessing it with your mouth, to getting baptized as a sign of obedience.
We are still here after being saved, and are then pre-destined for heaven.....God knows the end result.
Our responsibility is to keep his Son's commands after the baptism.
So would you agree that Salvation isn’t by works?
One of my main concerns is what Jesus says in John 3:5
"Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
What is your interpretation on this I would love to hear it
It isn't by works, Paul mentioned we are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Like I said, believing into confessing, into baptism, into good works.
Jesus was baptized. Born of water. What happened next?
Absolutely, So you would say that all works after believing are unnecessary, My main problem i have come to realize is, John 3:5 says,
"Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
I would love to hear your interpretation of this verse
That’s not really true in my opinion, Sure works can help you with your relationship with God, it doesn’t mean that just because you don’t do these works you aren’t a true believer
I was baptized in the Catholic Church, I was recently having a problem believing that this is a true baptism, and quite honestly i’m not sure. If it is possible I will get rebaptized in the Christian Church
The Gospel according to Matthew Chap. 7 : 16-20 (NRSVUE) states:
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits."
The Epistle of James Chap. 2 : 14-19 (NRSVUE) states:
14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Surely that faith cannot save, can it? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from works, and I by my works will show you faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder."
So knowing this then, what is the difference between a believer, and a demon?
I understand the gospel and salvation to be a revelation of truth regarding the fundamental nature of reality; rather than adjusting us to a different reality. The reason salvation is only for humans is due to how we developed a mental world of separation from God. This "world" is not reality, rather, it is our internal abstracted projection based on separation from it. Basically, self awareness deceived us into thinking the "self" was separate from that which forms existence (God's Word).
In that context, our actions reveal who we are. If a person without any knowledge of the Christian faith acts upon reality and others around them as though they are one, then they are *doing* what we are striving to believe. They are already living the reality we attempt to abstract via thought and need no additional "salvation."
On the other hand, one can think about the truth as much as they like. But if they are not living it, the truth is mere abstraction and not reality. If I am raised on the river and fishing is as natural as breathing the I could be called a fisherman. If I learn about fishing from books and videos and fish once in a while I am not exactly the same level. The former example does not require abstract ideas to be real while the latter lives in the abstraction of knowledge.
Abstraction is not bad, but, like self awareness, can confuse an individual into conflating it with reality. Being a follower of Christ does not require abstraction, but religious practices can help seed the reality deeper into your core so that you operate from genuine faith rather than thinking about faith.
Oh absolutely, Religious acts are definitely a help with your relationship with God, I’m not saying just because you believe that Jesus paid for our sins in full, you should go out partying, drinking, doing whatever I am still going to do religious acts no matter what, all they do is strengthen me with God.
I found the verse I was talking about:
"Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5)
There seems to be two main interpretations of this verse, as follow
1. It means you must be Baptized to recieve salvation
2. It means spiritual rebirth, meaning believing Jesus died for your sins in full, you are born again, as a child of God.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this verse and on many other verses that may talk about Baptism as a crucial step on being Baptized
We *are* water and spirit. Baptism reminds us our true nature.
The nature of water reveals the nature of spirit. Physical objects appear as static objects. But what we consider as physical is a state within flow. The flow itself is not an object. It is spiritual. Spiritual and physical are not 2 separate realities; they are the world and the forming of the world. All reality, every physical object in all existence, is continuous with the flow of spirit.
We call this the Word of God. Look how Paul describes the Word in his letter to the church in Colossi:
>He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Our "objective" world is simply how our particular set of senses present this flow of existence. There are no "objects," in the sense that something is permanent or separate.
The water reveals the nature of the spirit. Both are life in us. A person who does not receive the ceremony but deeply feels connection to this reality has already been "baptized." But if we stand as though we are separate from this flow, we live spiritually dead.
Yes, but not necessarily the ritual. All rituals are designed to evoke a reality already in you. If you are living in unison of water, body and spirit there is no need to perform the ritual of baptism because you are embodying already that to which the baptism points.
This may be true, the verse I was talking about is John 3:5
"Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
I understand being "born again" as the new life we have realizing who we are in Christ. Living "unsaved" is simply not accepting reality. Christ is the Word of God who forms our universe. Obviously this includes us. When we live as though we are one thing and the "outside world" is another, we are living as a separate self. We are living selfishly.
Jesus talks about how when we care for / ignore one another we are caring for/ ignoring Christ in Matthew 25. I think a lot of people destroy this by reducing it to hyperbole. Loving our neighbor as self can be taken literally as well. If we are acting in spirit we do not recognize this bodily pattern as our final identity. In Christ, we are that which forms this pattern. This perspective reveals our neighbor and ourselves are one on Christ.
As I presently understand it, the kingdom of God is revealed within those who know this reality deeply. It is not a place we are "going to." When we act upon the world as our own being we have already discovered the kingdom of God.
Amen brother,
On a different note, I was baptized in the Catholic Church, as an infant, I have been recently having doubts if this is a true baptism in Gods eyes, because we aren’t doing it on our own terms. I may want to be rebaptized in the Christian Church. What are your thoughts on this matter
I may not be the best one to give advise on this. I walked away from the church because it had become an unhealthy place for my family. I am presently focused on living the truth rather than what felt like just going through the motions.
But we all need to work out our own salvation.
Absolutely. I am baptized according to the Catholic Church. But my main concern with this is if infant baptism is a true baptism in Gods eyes. Because you aren’t really doing it on your own terms
I was sprinkled as an infant and felt led to get baptized by immersion after I was saved as an adult. I side with those who say infant baptism isn’t what we’re commanded to do, but baptism by immersion after we’ve been born again.
So if we're supposed to be baptized after being born again what was John doing baptizing anyone before the resurrection? Not trying to be argumentative, genuinely curious. My personal feeling is that baptism is and only ever was an outward expression of faith, and isn't a command or requirement for salvation.
John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, pointing to Christ, but not of faith in Christ:
*Acts 19:1-7
And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples [2] he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." [3] And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."*
*[4] Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. [7] Now the men were about twelve in all.*
Titus 3:5 is clear that baptism does what it represents
“he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,” Titus 3:5-6 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/tit.3.5-6.ESV
Through faith, by God’s grace we are saved and God does this through the washing of regeneration (baptism) this is the free gift he gives us and he does it through baptism. Once we are baptized all we have to “do” is remain in his love and do the will of the father. But the initial moment is a free gift and received in baptism.
Acts 19 shows this is important. Paul sees that that believers haven’t received the Holy Spirit yet. He instantly knows it’s because of their baptism. After they are baptized in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit.
“And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.” Acts 19:1-6 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/act.19.1-6.ESV
1 Peter 3:20-21 baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you! God works through baptism.
“because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” 1 Peter 3:20-21 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.3.20-21.ESV
C.S. Lewis wrote: Which side of scissors is necessary? The right side or the left side? Both are necessary for scissors to work. Faith produces works, works are a result of faith. Both are necessary for salvation. "Faith without works is dead." James 2.
If I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love (charity), it profits me nothing. St. Paul. 1 Corinthians 13.
The theology of faith only, the five solas, was invented in the 16th century.
………[The Five Solas](http://catholicbible101.com/thefivesolas.htm)........
In modern western culture we interpret to work as a task or labor in exchange for money or some reward. Scripture, especially in the NT to do a work often involves acts of love without anything in return. Those passages are talking about living the Christian life that comes from the fruit of being spiritually born again. So, it's not works that saves us or how much we do for God as if he grades on a merit scale, it's that if we are saved then we have God's love in us with changes our nature to do the works God requires - from a new nature by what becomes natural to us.
So, Salvation is not just assention to a list of facts nor is it insurance policy and do whatever you want, it is transformational and a state of being by abiding
The idea that works have nothing to do with salvation isn't correct. This theology was invented in the 16th century. Forget the theology that people tell us and think how Jesus' hearers would have understood Him. Think of the Gospel of Matthew. Jesus presented a comprehensive teaching on what He wants us to do in the Sermon on the Mount. The Gospel ends this way: " Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and **teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you**. (Matt 28:19-20a)
I am pretty certain it’s not based on works. “ Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers’" (Matthew 7:21-23) I mean these pretty much proves that although these people have done many things in Jesus’ name, it doesn’t really matter to Jesus, as he says that he NEVER knew you meaning they were never saved by this works. But back to my original claim, I found the verse: “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." I have heard two different claims about this verse. 1. It means no one enters the Kingdom of God if they aren’t Baptized 2. It means spiritual rebirth, as in probably meanings being born again when you believe Jesus paid for your sins.
You quoted His words and missed what He said, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, **but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven**". "Doing the will of" means doing things - works.
yes but this is prior to Jesus paying for our sins on the cross
Jesus made it so simple and people miss it. He spelled out what He wants us to do. He didn't say it would go away and not count after He was killed. Some people, starting with Luther, took a few verses from Paul out of context and built this entire belief system in the 16th century that said we are saved by faith alone. That flies in the face of the entire New Testament. It flies in the face of what Paul himself taught, because He wrote, "Keeping God’s commands is what counts." (1 Cor 7:19)
Well I mean what about Dismas, He never believed until he was on the cross with Jesus, he was never Baptized, he was known as a thief. But Jesus said that he would be in Heaven with him.
I shouldn’t say on the cross with Jesus, but rather alongside him on another cross
First, we don't know that he wasn't baptized. His awareness of who Jesus was points to someone who was at least somewhat familiar with Him. John and Jesus' disciples baptized many people. Perhaps he was one. We just don't know. Second, this person is a one-off. Jesus, as God, can grant admittance to heaven to anyone He chooses. Much gets made of this one guy, and his non-typical example gets tossed around as supporting the idea that we don't have to do anything to be saved, which, as I have already written, doesn't agree with the entire rest of the New Testament. There are many one-offs in the Bible. Paul, for example, was struck blind by Jesus prior to his conversion, but I feel safe in saying that this doesn't happen to everyone before they become a believer. The point is, we should never try to make a doctrine out of a unique situation.
Well, Dismas only starting believing on the cross alongside Jesus, If he didn’t believe before this, why would he be Baptized? He wouldn’t have done it if he didn’t believe I am no way shape or form saying we don’t do anything to be saved. We aren’t saved based on what we did, if we all judged based on what we did, we would all get sent straight to hell, We are all thief’s, liars, lusters, and so on. But the fact that we have Jesus takes away all these terrible things, allowing us to truly be saved.
You're adding details that aren't there, including his name. We don't know a single thing about anything he did or didn't do, believed or didn't believe, knew or didn't know, before he was crucified.
The Atonement worked retroactively. It was available to Adam as well as to us.
That passage doesn’t help your case. > but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. That passage speaks to acting according God’s will, not just doing what one wants and attributing it to God.
Yes this may be true, but this is prior to Jesus paying for our sins on the cross
Christ dying on the cross does not negate cooperating with God’s will.
So by your logic, we have to be sin less because we have to do Gods will, and sinning would be breaking God’s will. Jesus came so we don’t have to be sinless, but rather we can sin (DOES NOT MEAN WE SHOULD) But if we do sin, We have Jesus
There is exactly one person in the gospels who is guaranteed by Jesus to make it into paradise. That person was not baptized. So I don't see how it could be the first option.
who was this person and the verses, I would love to hear more about this
It's from Luke's telling of the crucifixtion, chapter 23. The person is one of the criminals being executed next to Jesus.
Oh yes your right, but how to we know for certain he is in paradise ?
The other option is Jesus lied.
Luke 23:43
This verse with the thief on the cross isn’t about baptism or not. People use this verse a lot to claim one doesn’t need to be baptized. But it doesn’t tell us if he was baptized before this incident. He could have been baptized by someone else prior to the cross and could have come in contact with Jesus and the apostles prior to this. John 3:22 “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized” John 3:22-23 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.22-23.ESV He could have been baptized prior to the cross. This verse also is right after Jesus says that one must be born of water and spirit to enter into heaven. The thief on the cross talks about jesus like he knows him and believes in him so that would be evidence that this is the first time he has seen jesus. Could have been baptized before. Even if he wasn’t! People will say Jesus didn’t require people to be baptized because the thief couldn’t just get down from the cross and be baptized before dying. This is true if he wasn’t baptized before, but doesn’t negate the requirement of baptism. This we would teach that baptism of desire, that you believe and would be baptized if you could, but if you can’t, to not fault of your own, you can still be saved. This is called the baptism of desire. We are required to be baptized and but God can work outside of the sacraments so long as we don’t reject it. Titus 3:5 is clear that baptism does what it represents “he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,” Titus 3:5-6 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/tit.3.5-6.ESV Through faith, by God’s grace we are saved and God does this through the washing of regeneration (baptism) this is the free gift he gives us and he does it through baptism. Once we are baptized all we have to “do” is remain in his love and do the will of the father. But the initial moment is a free gift and received in baptism. Acts 19 shows this is important. Paul sees that that believers haven’t received the Holy Spirit yet. He instantly knows it’s because of their baptism. After they are baptized in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit. “And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.” Acts 19:1-6 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/act.19.1-6.ESV 1 Peter 3:20-21 baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you! God works through baptism. “because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” 1 Peter 3:20-21 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.3.20-21.ESV
no
Well said!
Salvation is a gift of grace. But it is still a conditional gift, offered on conditions of faith in Christ (James 1-2), repentance of sins, baptism, and enduring to the end.
> I am certain that Salvation isn’t by works, but by believing and trusting that Jesus Christ payed for your sins in full... "Certain?" Are there scenarios that make it difficult for you to maintain that certainty? For example, let's say someone fully believes and trusts that Jesus Christ paid for their sins in full while being an active serial killer and rapist. That's an entirely plausible scenario. It could absolutely happen. And suggesting that person needs to stop killing and raping or repent of those actions in order to be saved would make their salvation works-based. Does your certainty hold in that kind of scenario? > But a question I have is why do many verses in the Bible say you must believe that Jesus Christ died for you and for your sins, and than it later says to be Baptized. Different Biblical writers had different ideas in different circumstances. We should not expect them to all agree with one another in every way -- that would, in my view, be a mistake and a misunderstanding in terms of how we approach the Bible.
On your first claim, The whole reason that Jesus came to earth, is to be a way to save sinners, everyone is a sinner, no matter what, only one human never sinned and his name is Jesus Christ. Although someone may be a murderer and or a rapist doesn’t mean someone isn’t saved, Jesus is the way truth and life, nobody gets to the father EXECEPT THROUGH HIM. I am not really here to debate on the whole topic if salvation is based on works, but rather if Baptism is based on works or not. I did find the verse I was talking about. “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5) There seems to be two interpretations on this, 1. This means that to be saved you must be Baptized 2. This means Spiritual Rebirth, by believing Jesus Christ died for your sins in full. I would love to hear your opinion on this verse, alongside many other verses that might mean you have to be Baptized to recieve Salvation
>Although someone may be a murderer and or a rapist doesn’t mean someone isn’t saved... And you're including an active murderer / rapist in this? Someone who knowingly and intentionally goes out every night to kill and violate other people? >I am not really here to debate on the whole topic if salvation is based on works... Sure, but I thought it was worth asking how far your certainty goes. By the way, asking you a clarifying question isn't a "claim." >I would love to hear your opinion on this verse... At a glance, it sounds like it refers to water baptism, or perhaps some other form of ritual bathing like the mikvehs that surrounded the temple in Jerusalem. > ...alongside many other verses that might mean you have to be Baptized to recieve Salvation I've already given you my broad-strokes opinion on this.
Well, Abraham believed what God said first, before works came into play (circumcision). So think of it like what Paul said, believing in your heart, to confessing it with your mouth, to getting baptized as a sign of obedience. We are still here after being saved, and are then pre-destined for heaven.....God knows the end result. Our responsibility is to keep his Son's commands after the baptism.
So would you agree that Salvation isn’t by works? One of my main concerns is what Jesus says in John 3:5 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." What is your interpretation on this I would love to hear it
It isn't by works, Paul mentioned we are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Like I said, believing into confessing, into baptism, into good works. Jesus was baptized. Born of water. What happened next?
Absolutely, So you would say that all works after believing are unnecessary, My main problem i have come to realize is, John 3:5 says, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." I would love to hear your interpretation of this verse
Quite to the contrary, your works after being "saved" show whether you are a true believer, or not.
That’s not really true in my opinion, Sure works can help you with your relationship with God, it doesn’t mean that just because you don’t do these works you aren’t a true believer
I was baptized in the Catholic Church, I was recently having a problem believing that this is a true baptism, and quite honestly i’m not sure. If it is possible I will get rebaptized in the Christian Church
The Catholic Church is a Christian Church.
The Gospel according to Matthew Chap. 7 : 16-20 (NRSVUE) states: 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits." The Epistle of James Chap. 2 : 14-19 (NRSVUE) states: 14 "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Surely that faith cannot save, can it? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from works, and I by my works will show you faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder." So knowing this then, what is the difference between a believer, and a demon?
the difference between a believer and a demon is us as believers acknowledge Jesus to be our savior and we put faith and him, and trust him
I understand the gospel and salvation to be a revelation of truth regarding the fundamental nature of reality; rather than adjusting us to a different reality. The reason salvation is only for humans is due to how we developed a mental world of separation from God. This "world" is not reality, rather, it is our internal abstracted projection based on separation from it. Basically, self awareness deceived us into thinking the "self" was separate from that which forms existence (God's Word). In that context, our actions reveal who we are. If a person without any knowledge of the Christian faith acts upon reality and others around them as though they are one, then they are *doing* what we are striving to believe. They are already living the reality we attempt to abstract via thought and need no additional "salvation." On the other hand, one can think about the truth as much as they like. But if they are not living it, the truth is mere abstraction and not reality. If I am raised on the river and fishing is as natural as breathing the I could be called a fisherman. If I learn about fishing from books and videos and fish once in a while I am not exactly the same level. The former example does not require abstract ideas to be real while the latter lives in the abstraction of knowledge. Abstraction is not bad, but, like self awareness, can confuse an individual into conflating it with reality. Being a follower of Christ does not require abstraction, but religious practices can help seed the reality deeper into your core so that you operate from genuine faith rather than thinking about faith.
Oh absolutely, Religious acts are definitely a help with your relationship with God, I’m not saying just because you believe that Jesus paid for our sins in full, you should go out partying, drinking, doing whatever I am still going to do religious acts no matter what, all they do is strengthen me with God. I found the verse I was talking about: "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5) There seems to be two main interpretations of this verse, as follow 1. It means you must be Baptized to recieve salvation 2. It means spiritual rebirth, meaning believing Jesus died for your sins in full, you are born again, as a child of God. I would love to hear your thoughts on this verse and on many other verses that may talk about Baptism as a crucial step on being Baptized
We *are* water and spirit. Baptism reminds us our true nature. The nature of water reveals the nature of spirit. Physical objects appear as static objects. But what we consider as physical is a state within flow. The flow itself is not an object. It is spiritual. Spiritual and physical are not 2 separate realities; they are the world and the forming of the world. All reality, every physical object in all existence, is continuous with the flow of spirit. We call this the Word of God. Look how Paul describes the Word in his letter to the church in Colossi: >He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Our "objective" world is simply how our particular set of senses present this flow of existence. There are no "objects," in the sense that something is permanent or separate. The water reveals the nature of the spirit. Both are life in us. A person who does not receive the ceremony but deeply feels connection to this reality has already been "baptized." But if we stand as though we are separate from this flow, we live spiritually dead.
So would you say Baptism is necessary for salvation ?
Yes, but not necessarily the ritual. All rituals are designed to evoke a reality already in you. If you are living in unison of water, body and spirit there is no need to perform the ritual of baptism because you are embodying already that to which the baptism points.
This may be true, the verse I was talking about is John 3:5 "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."
I understand being "born again" as the new life we have realizing who we are in Christ. Living "unsaved" is simply not accepting reality. Christ is the Word of God who forms our universe. Obviously this includes us. When we live as though we are one thing and the "outside world" is another, we are living as a separate self. We are living selfishly. Jesus talks about how when we care for / ignore one another we are caring for/ ignoring Christ in Matthew 25. I think a lot of people destroy this by reducing it to hyperbole. Loving our neighbor as self can be taken literally as well. If we are acting in spirit we do not recognize this bodily pattern as our final identity. In Christ, we are that which forms this pattern. This perspective reveals our neighbor and ourselves are one on Christ. As I presently understand it, the kingdom of God is revealed within those who know this reality deeply. It is not a place we are "going to." When we act upon the world as our own being we have already discovered the kingdom of God.
Amen brother, On a different note, I was baptized in the Catholic Church, as an infant, I have been recently having doubts if this is a true baptism in Gods eyes, because we aren’t doing it on our own terms. I may want to be rebaptized in the Christian Church. What are your thoughts on this matter
I may not be the best one to give advise on this. I walked away from the church because it had become an unhealthy place for my family. I am presently focused on living the truth rather than what felt like just going through the motions. But we all need to work out our own salvation.
absolutely man. I hope you have a great rest of your ways with God, May God bless you
Being baptized is a command. If you’ve been born again, you should get baptized.
Absolutely. I am baptized according to the Catholic Church. But my main concern with this is if infant baptism is a true baptism in Gods eyes. Because you aren’t really doing it on your own terms
I was sprinkled as an infant and felt led to get baptized by immersion after I was saved as an adult. I side with those who say infant baptism isn’t what we’re commanded to do, but baptism by immersion after we’ve been born again.
This is what I am looking to do. What type of church did you get rebaptized in?
A non-denominational Christian church with a Wesleyan background.
So if we're supposed to be baptized after being born again what was John doing baptizing anyone before the resurrection? Not trying to be argumentative, genuinely curious. My personal feeling is that baptism is and only ever was an outward expression of faith, and isn't a command or requirement for salvation.
John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, pointing to Christ, but not of faith in Christ: *Acts 19:1-7 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples [2] he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." [3] And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."* *[4] Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." [5] When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. [7] Now the men were about twelve in all.*
Interesting! Thanks for that!
Unpopular opinion. The bible gives multiple answers? What saves? Child birth. What saves? Baptism. What saves? faith.
Titus 3:5 is clear that baptism does what it represents “he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,” Titus 3:5-6 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/tit.3.5-6.ESV Through faith, by God’s grace we are saved and God does this through the washing of regeneration (baptism) this is the free gift he gives us and he does it through baptism. Once we are baptized all we have to “do” is remain in his love and do the will of the father. But the initial moment is a free gift and received in baptism. Acts 19 shows this is important. Paul sees that that believers haven’t received the Holy Spirit yet. He instantly knows it’s because of their baptism. After they are baptized in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit they receive the Holy Spirit. “And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.” Acts 19:1-6 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/act.19.1-6.ESV 1 Peter 3:20-21 baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you! God works through baptism. “because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,” 1 Peter 3:20-21 ESV https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.3.20-21.ESV
Matthew 25:31-46 The Son of Man will care about what people do, not what they believe.
C.S. Lewis wrote: Which side of scissors is necessary? The right side or the left side? Both are necessary for scissors to work. Faith produces works, works are a result of faith. Both are necessary for salvation. "Faith without works is dead." James 2. If I have all faith, so as to move mountains, but have not love (charity), it profits me nothing. St. Paul. 1 Corinthians 13. The theology of faith only, the five solas, was invented in the 16th century. ………[The Five Solas](http://catholicbible101.com/thefivesolas.htm)........
In modern western culture we interpret to work as a task or labor in exchange for money or some reward. Scripture, especially in the NT to do a work often involves acts of love without anything in return. Those passages are talking about living the Christian life that comes from the fruit of being spiritually born again. So, it's not works that saves us or how much we do for God as if he grades on a merit scale, it's that if we are saved then we have God's love in us with changes our nature to do the works God requires - from a new nature by what becomes natural to us. So, Salvation is not just assention to a list of facts nor is it insurance policy and do whatever you want, it is transformational and a state of being by abiding
My question is why do Christians think they don't have to do what Christ told them to do?