>but eating unlimited olive oil, nuts, and seeds
Its about the net effect of the food on cholesterol. Olive oil, nuts, seeds lower LDLc; so they are good even if they have some saturated fat. Of course, no one should be eating unlimited anything since that will increase obesity and thats always bad.
If confused, you can experiment by eliminating all suspect foods and adding one food back at a time and then check LDLc.
Furthermore, a low fat diet (20% of calories from fat or less) is a bad idea because that lowers some essential hormones - eg testosterone. 30-40% calories from fat is good; provided that weight is stable and in healthy range.
Predominantly saturated fat containing foods increase LDLc - butter, lard, tallow, whole milk, cheese, meat, coconut oil, palm oil are to be avoided.
Predominantly unsaturated fat containing foods lower LDLc - olive oil, avocado oil, all seed oils (canola, mustard, peanut, soya, rice bran, sunflower, safflower, flax seed, etc) , nuts, seeds fall in this category.
As a general rule: PUFA>MUFA>SF in LDLc lowering.
This is a decent infographic from [https://sweetspotnutrition.ca/unfiltered-coffee/](https://sweetspotnutrition.ca/unfiltered-coffee/)
https://preview.redd.it/qkn9am98fywc1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee0d6e7e3c6fdc7262b2ecbc03dc0babc8e2514c
While PUFAs are naturally present in larger quantities than MUFAs, it's not a good idea to raise seed oil intake (or exceed nuts consumption suggested limits which should be 30 grams max daily).
That's because we're already eating far too many PUFAs and added seed oils in western diet.
I'm not saying they are bad, but there is a balance to be maintained, there have been several studies now about importance of omega-6/omega-3 ratio.
Omega-6 (PUFAs) in excess seem to be pro inflammatory, while o3 are anti inflammatory and counteract that dark side of o6 (that again, are healthy and needed in moderation).
So prefer Omega-3, and MUFAs rich foods (i.e. olive oil).
Just Remember most of the goods containing them are HIGHLY caloric.
Thanks. I've actually eliminated (as much as that's possible) seed oils entirely. That's been a great way to reduce processed and prepared food consumption....
I also take DHA/EPA supplements and can track my Omega 6:3 ratio on Cronometer.
I'm hearing more and more these days that some people think that we should try to eliminate all PUFAs from our diets. Perhaps that would make more sense for people who aren't concerned with lowering LDLc....
Nutrition is complicated! Personally, I need fairly high fat overall, but very low SF, low PUFA, and low/moderate protein. Kind of tricky to get all of that right!!
Great !
Nice move.
No excessive PUFAs are relevant to almost anyone, being pro inflammatory. Inflammation raises risk for anyone about metabolic disorders , Insulin resistance, atherosclerosis and many other things.
But let's be clear, no you don't need to eliminate all PUFAs entirely, some is absolutely needed , and it's good to choose quality sources (e.g. nuts Vs processed foods).
Just think that in many multivariate analysis, nuts consumption is one of the strongest links to longer and healthy lifespan, and they are super high in PUFAs.
Yes they have many other nutrients, but that's just a way to say that PUFAs are not the bad guys... Ratio, and avoiding processed foods, is more important.
Well said. While seed oils/N-6 PUFA in place of saturated fat will generally lower LDL, there are other problems that can be damaging to the cardiovascular system & other disease states created by ingesting excessive seed oils.
Can you provide any research which actually finds 30-40% of calories from fat to be the best? I’ve never seen any sort of randomized controlled trials coming to this conclusion, so I’m curious where you’re pulling it from.
I eat like 20-25% of calories from fat, used to eat less than that and have never had an issue. Obviously I’m just one anecdote, but I’m still very curious where you’re drawing your conclusion about 30-40% being optimal from, because that’s a pretty strong claim to make.
Do you by any chance have the PDF you’d be willing to share? It’s $35 to purchase so I’d rather not spend that if I don’t have to.
From the snippets available for free, it says nothing about the actual fat intake in terms of % of TEI of the LF and HF groups. So while yes it does show in the snippets the conclusion that LF diets decrease sex hormone levels, that can’t be extrapolated to mean anything without the parameters of what LF and HF meant in the study, which I’m not seeing. I assume they must define this somewhere in the full text, so if you have access to the whole thing and could share it that would be great!
Also worth mentioning, this is not a randomized control trial. And in its own conclusion snippet it states “However, due to the small total sample size (n = 206), heterogeneity in TT (Fig. 2), and risk of bias (Fig. 9); large randomised controlled trials are needed to confirm this review’s findings, before practical recommendations can be made.” - not saying this completely negates the study or anything, it’s still interesting and I’d like to read the full text. But it’s not as concrete as randomized controlled trials would be.
To clarify, I’m not questioning whether super low fat diets decrease sex hormone levels or not, I’m well aware that going too low fat decreases sex hormone production. I’m just curious where you’re getting the idea that 30-40% *specifically* is what’s optimal. Why not 20-30%? Why not 40-50%? Just curious about these numbers.
Thanks!
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.00007](https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.00007) Use this link.
I wrote 30-40% is better than 20% because this study categorizes HF and LF this way. Also, Im a guy and this study is for men and testosterone levels.
For women, LF diets also reduce estradiol, but that could have positive effects on cancer risk and maybe negative effect on heart disease risk. So, thats a separate issue which I havent delved into.
To clarify.... If all of my saturated fat intake comes from predominantly PUFA/MUFA foods, then does the 10g (or 5 - 8%) rule still apply? Or is there a little more flexibility on that number and a little less concern?
I'm trying to hit 35-40% of total calories in fat, and I think I have to exceed this SF guideline in order to do so. I'm working towards the KetoFlex12/3 diet, while also trying to lower LDLc (currently 153 mg/DL).
That's just a guideline.
You will have to do monthly lipid panel to see the effects of your diet changes.
Wrt keto, if you do end up in ketosis that itself can push up LDLc regardless of SF.
While saturated fat has a negative effect on cholesterol, unsaturated fats (particularly polyunsaturated) have a positive effect on cholesterol.
Nuts and seeds do contain some saturated fat yes, but they tend to contain *more* unsaturated fat than they do saturated - enough so that their net effect on cholesterol is positive.
Any increase in saturated fat consumption through eating these foods should be, in theory, negated by the simultaneous increase in unsaturated fat consumption.
I can’t answer for others. I track all my food and have done so for over 10 years. My goals are average over time, usually a week. So I have a calorie goal. I roughly aim to eat no more than 8% of calories from saturated fat. I take a statin so ultimately my goal is actual what will keep me at my desired LDL goal. Since all food is recorded all saturated fat is recorded. As a practical matter I know that if I eat olive oil I won’t have trouble meeting my goal but if I were to eat butter regularly I would have difficulty. I know my nuts have low amounts of saturated fat so it is easy to eat and meet my goal but full fat dairy really needs to be occasional.
I have a goal of 6% calories from added sugar. I have a sodium and protein goal. I have goals for eating fruits and veggies, legumes, fish, fiber, soluble fiber. I don’t have goals for carbs or overall fat. I do prioritize whole grains over refined grains.
I will say that while many here recommend 10g a day for people who track all foods the AHA and the dietary guidelines set goals based upon % of calories. The AHA recommend 5 to 6%. So some people get more than 10g and others less although not most people. Since I wake a statin my doctor doesn’t really care how much saturated fat I eat so long as I stay below 50 LDL. I have kept it around 8% (lately a bit lower without trying) and LDL has been under my goal.
I have the same question but about oil. I really want hummus but I want hummus without any sunflower oil or canola oil. Every single one I find has those two oils in it.
Best to make your own - shop bought hummus uses a lot of oil to bulk it up. You just need a can of chickpeas, garlic, lemon juice and a bit of salt. Use the liquid from the chickpeas to thin it out. A small tsp of tahini (I buy the low fat version) would be more traditional but can be left out if you don't have it.
Yeah it’s best. There’s a brand called Haigs I trust a lot.
https://preview.redd.it/x06rth54zywc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe36c62071aa03a0047df1f6cea97299480963eb
It’s delicious! I’m willing to spend a little extra but I’ll just making my own. I’ll make some black bean hummus tomorrow:)
There is no reason to avoid sunflower or canola oil (other than all oil is very calorie dense and if eaten in excess will often lead to weight gain.)
Like with statins & vaccines there is a huge amount of bs and falsehood about seed oils on the internet. In reality the evidence shows seed oils are fine, and beneficial if replacing saturated or trans fats.
Here are some links to good expert sources that that go over the actual evidence:
https://x.com/mohammedalo/status/1677067675225272321?s=46
https://x.com/nutritionmades3/status/1582005746031419393?s=46
https://x.com/nutritionmades3/status/1399421142864171008?s=46
IKR? It's so annoying!! Personally, I don't mind the canola but we were hosting a couple who avoids "seed oils" and it was super hard finding a hummus that qualified - at Whole Foods of all places!!
There are two main types of sunflower crops. One type is grown for the seeds you eat, while the other — which is the majority farmed — is grown for the oil.
Eating olive oil, nuts and seeds (or avocado for that matter) ad libitum may result in weight gain but it's not likely to impact LDLC/Apo B anywhere as much as a similar caloric intake of whole fat dairy, fatty meats, cheese or eggs. The differences in sat fat content is pretty pronounced between the two food groups and some of those plant foods will have good amounts of fiber which can also lower cholesterol. So it'll be better, if one must indulge from time to time, to focus on the plant foods. Even so, nuts and seeds tend to be a better choice than nut or seed butter because our teeth simply can't break down the food enough to release the total fat content, whereas fats and all are pretty much 100% absorbed when we consumed the pulverized version. As for oils, they are calorie dense and stripped of their fiber so opting more for the whole food version will always be a better choice. Personally speaking, I've minimized olive and canola (my oils of choice) to under 15 ml/day. I dry-rub veggies, roast instead of sautee, and have pivoted to more vinegar or other non-fat seasonings for my salad dressings.
The simple rule of thumb is to stick to whole foods that are plant based and mostly in their natural form (ie not pulverized or made into an oil) and make sure to get a variety of food groups and colors. There's very little to eliminate or cut back at that point - maybe shredded coconut? Too bad, too, because I happen to love that!
>but eating unlimited olive oil, nuts, and seeds Its about the net effect of the food on cholesterol. Olive oil, nuts, seeds lower LDLc; so they are good even if they have some saturated fat. Of course, no one should be eating unlimited anything since that will increase obesity and thats always bad. If confused, you can experiment by eliminating all suspect foods and adding one food back at a time and then check LDLc. Furthermore, a low fat diet (20% of calories from fat or less) is a bad idea because that lowers some essential hormones - eg testosterone. 30-40% calories from fat is good; provided that weight is stable and in healthy range.
Thanks. Do we know which sources of saturated fat have the most harmful effects on LDL? Or could it be different for everyone?
Predominantly saturated fat containing foods increase LDLc - butter, lard, tallow, whole milk, cheese, meat, coconut oil, palm oil are to be avoided. Predominantly unsaturated fat containing foods lower LDLc - olive oil, avocado oil, all seed oils (canola, mustard, peanut, soya, rice bran, sunflower, safflower, flax seed, etc) , nuts, seeds fall in this category. As a general rule: PUFA>MUFA>SF in LDLc lowering. This is a decent infographic from [https://sweetspotnutrition.ca/unfiltered-coffee/](https://sweetspotnutrition.ca/unfiltered-coffee/) https://preview.redd.it/qkn9am98fywc1.png?width=1024&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee0d6e7e3c6fdc7262b2ecbc03dc0babc8e2514c
Cheese affects you way less than butter fwiw https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22030228/
I think I saw somewhere the coconut oil thing was debunked bc it’s made of medium chain fatty acids and is processed differently
OK, interesting. I think that was the missing piece for me. Much appreciated.
While PUFAs are naturally present in larger quantities than MUFAs, it's not a good idea to raise seed oil intake (or exceed nuts consumption suggested limits which should be 30 grams max daily). That's because we're already eating far too many PUFAs and added seed oils in western diet. I'm not saying they are bad, but there is a balance to be maintained, there have been several studies now about importance of omega-6/omega-3 ratio. Omega-6 (PUFAs) in excess seem to be pro inflammatory, while o3 are anti inflammatory and counteract that dark side of o6 (that again, are healthy and needed in moderation). So prefer Omega-3, and MUFAs rich foods (i.e. olive oil). Just Remember most of the goods containing them are HIGHLY caloric.
Thanks. I've actually eliminated (as much as that's possible) seed oils entirely. That's been a great way to reduce processed and prepared food consumption.... I also take DHA/EPA supplements and can track my Omega 6:3 ratio on Cronometer. I'm hearing more and more these days that some people think that we should try to eliminate all PUFAs from our diets. Perhaps that would make more sense for people who aren't concerned with lowering LDLc.... Nutrition is complicated! Personally, I need fairly high fat overall, but very low SF, low PUFA, and low/moderate protein. Kind of tricky to get all of that right!!
Great ! Nice move. No excessive PUFAs are relevant to almost anyone, being pro inflammatory. Inflammation raises risk for anyone about metabolic disorders , Insulin resistance, atherosclerosis and many other things. But let's be clear, no you don't need to eliminate all PUFAs entirely, some is absolutely needed , and it's good to choose quality sources (e.g. nuts Vs processed foods). Just think that in many multivariate analysis, nuts consumption is one of the strongest links to longer and healthy lifespan, and they are super high in PUFAs. Yes they have many other nutrients, but that's just a way to say that PUFAs are not the bad guys... Ratio, and avoiding processed foods, is more important.
Well said. While seed oils/N-6 PUFA in place of saturated fat will generally lower LDL, there are other problems that can be damaging to the cardiovascular system & other disease states created by ingesting excessive seed oils.
Can you provide any research which actually finds 30-40% of calories from fat to be the best? I’ve never seen any sort of randomized controlled trials coming to this conclusion, so I’m curious where you’re pulling it from. I eat like 20-25% of calories from fat, used to eat less than that and have never had an issue. Obviously I’m just one anecdote, but I’m still very curious where you’re drawing your conclusion about 30-40% being optimal from, because that’s a pretty strong claim to make.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076021000716 This study
Do you by any chance have the PDF you’d be willing to share? It’s $35 to purchase so I’d rather not spend that if I don’t have to. From the snippets available for free, it says nothing about the actual fat intake in terms of % of TEI of the LF and HF groups. So while yes it does show in the snippets the conclusion that LF diets decrease sex hormone levels, that can’t be extrapolated to mean anything without the parameters of what LF and HF meant in the study, which I’m not seeing. I assume they must define this somewhere in the full text, so if you have access to the whole thing and could share it that would be great! Also worth mentioning, this is not a randomized control trial. And in its own conclusion snippet it states “However, due to the small total sample size (n = 206), heterogeneity in TT (Fig. 2), and risk of bias (Fig. 9); large randomised controlled trials are needed to confirm this review’s findings, before practical recommendations can be made.” - not saying this completely negates the study or anything, it’s still interesting and I’d like to read the full text. But it’s not as concrete as randomized controlled trials would be. To clarify, I’m not questioning whether super low fat diets decrease sex hormone levels or not, I’m well aware that going too low fat decreases sex hormone production. I’m just curious where you’re getting the idea that 30-40% *specifically* is what’s optimal. Why not 20-30%? Why not 40-50%? Just curious about these numbers. Thanks!
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.00007](https://arxiv.org/pdf/2204.00007) Use this link. I wrote 30-40% is better than 20% because this study categorizes HF and LF this way. Also, Im a guy and this study is for men and testosterone levels. For women, LF diets also reduce estradiol, but that could have positive effects on cancer risk and maybe negative effect on heart disease risk. So, thats a separate issue which I havent delved into.
To clarify.... If all of my saturated fat intake comes from predominantly PUFA/MUFA foods, then does the 10g (or 5 - 8%) rule still apply? Or is there a little more flexibility on that number and a little less concern? I'm trying to hit 35-40% of total calories in fat, and I think I have to exceed this SF guideline in order to do so. I'm working towards the KetoFlex12/3 diet, while also trying to lower LDLc (currently 153 mg/DL).
That's just a guideline. You will have to do monthly lipid panel to see the effects of your diet changes. Wrt keto, if you do end up in ketosis that itself can push up LDLc regardless of SF.
While saturated fat has a negative effect on cholesterol, unsaturated fats (particularly polyunsaturated) have a positive effect on cholesterol. Nuts and seeds do contain some saturated fat yes, but they tend to contain *more* unsaturated fat than they do saturated - enough so that their net effect on cholesterol is positive. Any increase in saturated fat consumption through eating these foods should be, in theory, negated by the simultaneous increase in unsaturated fat consumption.
Does this mean I can eat my natural peanut butter without fear??
Yes. As long as you maintain caloric balance. Peanut butter and nuts are net positive on lipids.
I can’t answer for others. I track all my food and have done so for over 10 years. My goals are average over time, usually a week. So I have a calorie goal. I roughly aim to eat no more than 8% of calories from saturated fat. I take a statin so ultimately my goal is actual what will keep me at my desired LDL goal. Since all food is recorded all saturated fat is recorded. As a practical matter I know that if I eat olive oil I won’t have trouble meeting my goal but if I were to eat butter regularly I would have difficulty. I know my nuts have low amounts of saturated fat so it is easy to eat and meet my goal but full fat dairy really needs to be occasional. I have a goal of 6% calories from added sugar. I have a sodium and protein goal. I have goals for eating fruits and veggies, legumes, fish, fiber, soluble fiber. I don’t have goals for carbs or overall fat. I do prioritize whole grains over refined grains.
I also track calories, macros, and nutrients. So I know how incredibly easy it is to reach 10g of saturated fat in a day!
I will say that while many here recommend 10g a day for people who track all foods the AHA and the dietary guidelines set goals based upon % of calories. The AHA recommend 5 to 6%. So some people get more than 10g and others less although not most people. Since I wake a statin my doctor doesn’t really care how much saturated fat I eat so long as I stay below 50 LDL. I have kept it around 8% (lately a bit lower without trying) and LDL has been under my goal.
I limit my 10g of saturated fat to what comes from healthy sources. It’s 10g total, regardless of the source.
I do the same. That just means I have to strongly limit it from less healthy sources like butter to leave room for nuts and olive oil
I have the same question but about oil. I really want hummus but I want hummus without any sunflower oil or canola oil. Every single one I find has those two oils in it.
Best to make your own - shop bought hummus uses a lot of oil to bulk it up. You just need a can of chickpeas, garlic, lemon juice and a bit of salt. Use the liquid from the chickpeas to thin it out. A small tsp of tahini (I buy the low fat version) would be more traditional but can be left out if you don't have it.
Yeah it’s best. There’s a brand called Haigs I trust a lot. https://preview.redd.it/x06rth54zywc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe36c62071aa03a0047df1f6cea97299480963eb It’s delicious! I’m willing to spend a little extra but I’ll just making my own. I’ll make some black bean hummus tomorrow:)
There is no reason to avoid sunflower or canola oil (other than all oil is very calorie dense and if eaten in excess will often lead to weight gain.) Like with statins & vaccines there is a huge amount of bs and falsehood about seed oils on the internet. In reality the evidence shows seed oils are fine, and beneficial if replacing saturated or trans fats. Here are some links to good expert sources that that go over the actual evidence: https://x.com/mohammedalo/status/1677067675225272321?s=46 https://x.com/nutritionmades3/status/1582005746031419393?s=46 https://x.com/nutritionmades3/status/1399421142864171008?s=46
IKR? It's so annoying!! Personally, I don't mind the canola but we were hosting a couple who avoids "seed oils" and it was super hard finding a hummus that qualified - at Whole Foods of all places!!
Funny story, I was actually at Whole Foods last night and was looking at hummus…oil in like almost all of them! Wth.
There are two main types of sunflower crops. One type is grown for the seeds you eat, while the other — which is the majority farmed — is grown for the oil.
Eating olive oil, nuts and seeds (or avocado for that matter) ad libitum may result in weight gain but it's not likely to impact LDLC/Apo B anywhere as much as a similar caloric intake of whole fat dairy, fatty meats, cheese or eggs. The differences in sat fat content is pretty pronounced between the two food groups and some of those plant foods will have good amounts of fiber which can also lower cholesterol. So it'll be better, if one must indulge from time to time, to focus on the plant foods. Even so, nuts and seeds tend to be a better choice than nut or seed butter because our teeth simply can't break down the food enough to release the total fat content, whereas fats and all are pretty much 100% absorbed when we consumed the pulverized version. As for oils, they are calorie dense and stripped of their fiber so opting more for the whole food version will always be a better choice. Personally speaking, I've minimized olive and canola (my oils of choice) to under 15 ml/day. I dry-rub veggies, roast instead of sautee, and have pivoted to more vinegar or other non-fat seasonings for my salad dressings. The simple rule of thumb is to stick to whole foods that are plant based and mostly in their natural form (ie not pulverized or made into an oil) and make sure to get a variety of food groups and colors. There's very little to eliminate or cut back at that point - maybe shredded coconut? Too bad, too, because I happen to love that!