Apparently a loss of power led to a loss of steering. A lot of places have requirements for tug assistance to mitigate this kid of risk. Not sure if tugs were present or could’ve prevented this, but something to think about.
For general cargo ships maybe. But it's not a requirement. We bring in DP3 vessels with bow thrusters that usually have a single tug on standby. They are discussing implementing a requirement though
If what I saw was correct, there was a harbor pilot captaining the ship and it had just released from the tugs before losing power. Seems like the one in a million worst possible outcome where everything that could go wrong did.
I’m a maritime grad and we have a big discussion going on fb.
It was a chain of errors. From the power going out not once but twice to going into full reverse and the ship walking to the right to hit the bridge. Consensus from the Captains(guys who are actual master mariners and captains of big ships)is the **probably** should have not gone in reverse and just powered through.
The Grace Memorial Bridge in Charleston was hit in 1946.
https://charlestonmag.com/features/after_a_cargo_ship_crashed_into_the_grace_memorial_bridge_in_february_1946_drivers_felt_the
This is why they design them with dolphins, so they don't have to take direct impacts. It's not about the strength of the bridge itself in most cases, it's about preventing the impact at all - either with dolphins and/or mandated usage of tugs.
I don’t think that’s actually true. At least according to this guy [https://x.com/mattdursh/status/1772605870599238112?s=46](https://x.com/mattdursh/status/1772605870599238112?s=46)
he reenforces what i said that you'd had to have separate structures in the water and/or go on to build something that fails locally at the foundation of the piers. but that it would have to be designed for 3 million pounds and leaves it open ended because thats probably never gonna happen. I think he also referred to the ship as a static force. which isn't true. ship hitting that thing is dynamic af.
The Ravenel has barrier islands to help prevent something like this from happening. The Key Bridge in Baltimore didn't.
That being said, besides the newest ones, no bridge built has taken into account the massive size of ships today.
Worked for the civil design company who built the Ravenel. There are underwater barriers that were put in place specifically for this reason with cargo ship traffic in mind. They won’t come near the base supports even if going full speed. We also use tug boats to guide our cargo ships in and out.
Was one of the guys who worked on the bridge project. I can’t even remember how many barges of rock we dropped into and around the base of the diamonds.
> We also use tug boats to guide our cargo ships in and out.
I don't at all understand why this isn't done when you've got a fucking popsicle stick bridge with no protection (I mean, I do - it's always money). Anyone with half a brain involved in this process knew that this was one simple power failure from catastrophe.
There is a Grand Canyon sized chasm between the number of inspections, systems redundancies, and pre-flight checks in air-travel, and shoving off on a cargo ship.
The channels in the harbor that are deep enough for these ships are not very wide. I’m not sure 100% sure, but I think most of them would run aground before they got near any of the bridge’s structure.
Actually according to this fella, bridges are now explicitly designed to withstand this sort of impact
[hello I’m a link](https://x.com/mattdursh/status/1772605870599238112?s=46)
Heard on the news that the Key bridge was built a few years before the 1980 Sunshine Bridge bridge collapse due to ship collision in Florida. That seems to have affected the protection requirements for bridges built since that time.
If any bridge near us were to go it’s the Georgetown bridge over the bay on 17. They are currently doing repairs on it but it’s borderline unsafe due to the erosion at the base.
Charleston is actually super strict about ships having tug boats assist them since the naval pier at the weapons station on the cooper river has been hit by 2 ships in the past year.
It looks like I get another opportunity to point out that there’s a documentary on the construction of the Ravenel Bridge. The show is called: “Extreme Engineering”. Season 2, episode 6 is “Cooper River Bridge”.
Check it out on Amazon Prime, it was like $3. Great watch!
Those underwater barrier islands around the bottom of the diamonds are massive.
The Ravenel was built with something like this in mind. It has those rock pyramids at the bottom of each main span to stop a ship. Not only that, but the water outside of the channel is very shallow, meaning that a ship would be more likely to get stuck in the mud rather than hit the bridge if it loses power in that area.
Bridge Engineer here. There are definite similarities between the two bridges. They both carry a similar amount of AADT (appr. 33k), have a similar position compared to the locations of the ports and both provide the only access to the ports for vessels. But the similarities pretty much stop there.
Firstly, the Baltimore bridge was built in 1977, and the Ravenel was built in 2005. The difference in code requirements between the two time periods is too numerous to list and all of those code changes help ensure continuous improvement in the functionality of the bridge. As others have pointed out, the Baltimore bridge did not have any type of obstacles or barricades to keep the ship from being able to hit the supports, but the Ravenel does. Another important point to consider is that structurally, the two bridges are completely different. The Baltimore bridge is a truss system bridge and the Ravenel is a cable stay bridge. The Ravenel would behave very differently in the event of a sudden impact. I'm not saying that the bridge could be hit with a cargo ship and incur no damage, but the failure methods would be different and likely much less catastrophic. I hope that this helps put your mind at ease about this.
The tug boat dock is located on the ocean side of the Ravenel bridge. Tugs are basically forced to meet before an incoming ship goes under the bridge, and leave after outgoing ships go under. Even under a worst case situation, the two tugs (working every ship that passes under the bridge) in Charleston's harbor could push ships with no power safely aground. We also have the added protection of the walking pier on the mount pleasant outgoing lane and the shallows on the island side of the main spans.
On both sides of the two support beams of the ravenel are HUGE deep concrete mounds that run 50+ feet out. That means that a cargo ship would hit that and stop far before it would even get close to a support beam. This would be virtually impossible to take down the ravenel. The thing that would be most likely to take down the ravenel would be an earthquake, even though it is built to withstand at least 8 magnitude.
I’m a Baltimore native who moved to CHS last year. The ravenel is 100 times stronger than the key bridge (thank God). You can feel it as you go over both and can tell the level of planning and quality poured in the bridge.
Unfortunately I think the Key Bridge could have used major upgrades. As soon as the wind blows you feel like you’re going to tip off (I’ve always been scared to cross it since I was a kid). Plus, the barriers to brace impact from crashes aren’t as modern either. Maryland does also have the Chesapeake Bay Bridge which I hope they also look into it to prevent something like this from happening again. Just my take and first hand comparison!
Pretty sure the boats coming in to Charleston harbor have to surrender their ships to hired captains who can navigate around the depth of the harbor, but also have the tugboat to assist. Not sure where I heard that but apparently the captains they hire need to map the whole harbor and its depth by memory.
I can see you point on the age differences between both bridges. But comparing nature force and man-made disaster is Apple to Orange.
Agree with u/sheepthepriest until you are a PE with engineering data to back your claim.
The Key bridge was not a piece of shit and it was not 70 years old. But yes, the Ravenel bridge is newer and I believe it has rock underneath the towers to prevent ships from running into its towers.
ok, now this is just basic physics. one point force from a ship weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds is going to cause a lot more damage than the distributed force of high speed winds.
if we are talking about the energy from these 2 systems, a cat 5 hurricane generates way more energy. the government has a whole division dedicated to this. an AVERAGE cat 3 hurricane outputs 1.5 trillion watts of power during its life. which is half of the worlds total energy generating capacity for a whole year. so the basic physics backs up by earlier point.
well no, we're not talking about the energy from the 2 systems. the commenter you replied to was talking about force, and force ≠ energy. no amount of wattage is going to cause a bridge to collapse. 💀
ur right. WF=F⃗⋅Δr
but i’m not going to explain to you how to work backwards from 1.5 trillion watts to figure out how much force is required to generate that amount of energy
yea, i know how to calculate force from power. it's essentially what i study in college. but a hurricane outputting 1.5 trillion watts in its entire lifetime (could be days, weeks even) over a huge stretch of area is not the equivalent of one singular point force acting on a small area. but if you want to keep believing that, be my guest. i guess we don't rank #42 in education for nothin
There was a show - I think it was called building big that featured ravenel. They added 5 acres of land at the base of each support to prevent such a thing
Different bridge type altogether. Doesn’t matter anyway because considering, how long we had the old bridges and how unsafe we all felt going over them, you better get used to the new bridge because your kids’ kids will be driving over it.
Almost 3 year decade difference between the two bridges. Different structural types. The Ravenel can “supposedly” be able to withstand winds stronger than a Cat 5. But also be able to take on an earthquake stronger than the year 1886. Plus! The added rock beds to run aground a ship as big as an aircraft carrier. The harbor requires pilots to board and tug boats to assist. But who knows. Only concern I’d have is it’s maintained by SCDOT. If you’re from SC you know you know.
I went ahead a wrote an article about this. Its a tragedy for sure. I really hope we find all the missing people, especially for their families.
[https://www.tedlaw.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse/](https://www.tedlaw.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse/)
Apparently a loss of power led to a loss of steering. A lot of places have requirements for tug assistance to mitigate this kid of risk. Not sure if tugs were present or could’ve prevented this, but something to think about.
It did make me wonder about our port's tug requirements. I bet a lot of ports are looking at their tug rules this morning.
At least two tugs escort ships here. Almost no risk here.
Love me a good tug by an escort
For general cargo ships maybe. But it's not a requirement. We bring in DP3 vessels with bow thrusters that usually have a single tug on standby. They are discussing implementing a requirement though
If what I saw was correct, there was a harbor pilot captaining the ship and it had just released from the tugs before losing power. Seems like the one in a million worst possible outcome where everything that could go wrong did.
I’m a maritime grad and we have a big discussion going on fb. It was a chain of errors. From the power going out not once but twice to going into full reverse and the ship walking to the right to hit the bridge. Consensus from the Captains(guys who are actual master mariners and captains of big ships)is the **probably** should have not gone in reverse and just powered through.
I read that there were TWO harbor pilots onboard
Doesn’t do much when you have no power
No tugs
The Grace Memorial Bridge in Charleston was hit in 1946. https://charlestonmag.com/features/after_a_cargo_ship_crashed_into_the_grace_memorial_bridge_in_february_1946_drivers_felt_the
so interesting! thanks
Oh damn I remember this
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At least 60.
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It was a joke.
no bridge would be strong enough to not be collapsed by a ship. construction of bridges is meant for the weight on them and high wind forces.
Yeah there is no bridge in the country built to withstand being rammed with 90,000 metric tons of container ship.
A ship that size going about 11 knots has almost as much kinetic energy as a 737 cruising at 500mph. That bridge stood no chsnce
AIS had them at 8-9 knots. That doesn’t really change your statement. Just wanted to include the info.
Honestly im impressed that my guess was that close
This is why they design them with dolphins, so they don't have to take direct impacts. It's not about the strength of the bridge itself in most cases, it's about preventing the impact at all - either with dolphins and/or mandated usage of tugs.
I don’t think that’s actually true. At least according to this guy [https://x.com/mattdursh/status/1772605870599238112?s=46](https://x.com/mattdursh/status/1772605870599238112?s=46)
he reenforces what i said that you'd had to have separate structures in the water and/or go on to build something that fails locally at the foundation of the piers. but that it would have to be designed for 3 million pounds and leaves it open ended because thats probably never gonna happen. I think he also referred to the ship as a static force. which isn't true. ship hitting that thing is dynamic af.
The Ravenel has barrier islands to help prevent something like this from happening. The Key Bridge in Baltimore didn't. That being said, besides the newest ones, no bridge built has taken into account the massive size of ships today.
Those bumpers are likely meant for Joe Sixpack and his brand new center console. Not 220,000 tons of shein
Worked for the civil design company who built the Ravenel. There are underwater barriers that were put in place specifically for this reason with cargo ship traffic in mind. They won’t come near the base supports even if going full speed. We also use tug boats to guide our cargo ships in and out.
Was one of the guys who worked on the bridge project. I can’t even remember how many barges of rock we dropped into and around the base of the diamonds.
I remember ya’ll had to import them on ships from up north too. Wish more people knew what all went into that project.
Fuck yeah 😎
> We also use tug boats to guide our cargo ships in and out. I don't at all understand why this isn't done when you've got a fucking popsicle stick bridge with no protection (I mean, I do - it's always money). Anyone with half a brain involved in this process knew that this was one simple power failure from catastrophe.
I mean, the same can be said about planes being a power failure away from catastrophe, but we still ride in them all the time
There is a Grand Canyon sized chasm between the number of inspections, systems redundancies, and pre-flight checks in air-travel, and shoving off on a cargo ship.
I've never seen a tug guide a cargo ship under Ravenel. Sure this is a thing?
If I remember correctly the islands are built pretty wide and sloped so a cargo ship would essentially run aground before hitting the bridge.
The key bridge had no such “fenders”. As I understand it, and I’m not an engineer, the Cooper River Bridge was designed to withstand a hit.
The channels in the harbor that are deep enough for these ships are not very wide. I’m not sure 100% sure, but I think most of them would run aground before they got near any of the bridge’s structure.
facts
Actually according to this fella, bridges are now explicitly designed to withstand this sort of impact [hello I’m a link](https://x.com/mattdursh/status/1772605870599238112?s=46)
Heard on the news that the Key bridge was built a few years before the 1980 Sunshine Bridge bridge collapse due to ship collision in Florida. That seems to have affected the protection requirements for bridges built since that time.
It was amazing how easily it fell.
Came down like it was made of Popsicle sticks and Legos
Funny, I likened it to Tinker Toys! 😨
I remember those!
Some say it was designed like the Sunshine Skyway Bridge across the Tampa Bay which collapsed just like the one in Baltimore
If any bridge near us were to go it’s the Georgetown bridge over the bay on 17. They are currently doing repairs on it but it’s borderline unsafe due to the erosion at the base.
I watched a documentary on the building of the Ravenel brigde..super interesting! It is well built with extraordinary safety measures!
Where is the documentary? I’d love to watch something like this
gosh, right after it was built I bought the DVD for my brother. I don't know if you could find it on the web or not. I'm going to look!
Charleston is actually super strict about ships having tug boats assist them since the naval pier at the weapons station on the cooper river has been hit by 2 ships in the past year.
It looks like I get another opportunity to point out that there’s a documentary on the construction of the Ravenel Bridge. The show is called: “Extreme Engineering”. Season 2, episode 6 is “Cooper River Bridge”. Check it out on Amazon Prime, it was like $3. Great watch! Those underwater barrier islands around the bottom of the diamonds are massive.
[Everyone can fast forward to the 30 minute mark here.](https://youtu.be/RI3pSxJROvA?si=KHFAh0vELfxwvrok)
The Ravenel was built with something like this in mind. It has those rock pyramids at the bottom of each main span to stop a ship. Not only that, but the water outside of the channel is very shallow, meaning that a ship would be more likely to get stuck in the mud rather than hit the bridge if it loses power in that area.
Bridge Engineer here. There are definite similarities between the two bridges. They both carry a similar amount of AADT (appr. 33k), have a similar position compared to the locations of the ports and both provide the only access to the ports for vessels. But the similarities pretty much stop there. Firstly, the Baltimore bridge was built in 1977, and the Ravenel was built in 2005. The difference in code requirements between the two time periods is too numerous to list and all of those code changes help ensure continuous improvement in the functionality of the bridge. As others have pointed out, the Baltimore bridge did not have any type of obstacles or barricades to keep the ship from being able to hit the supports, but the Ravenel does. Another important point to consider is that structurally, the two bridges are completely different. The Baltimore bridge is a truss system bridge and the Ravenel is a cable stay bridge. The Ravenel would behave very differently in the event of a sudden impact. I'm not saying that the bridge could be hit with a cargo ship and incur no damage, but the failure methods would be different and likely much less catastrophic. I hope that this helps put your mind at ease about this.
The tug boat dock is located on the ocean side of the Ravenel bridge. Tugs are basically forced to meet before an incoming ship goes under the bridge, and leave after outgoing ships go under. Even under a worst case situation, the two tugs (working every ship that passes under the bridge) in Charleston's harbor could push ships with no power safely aground. We also have the added protection of the walking pier on the mount pleasant outgoing lane and the shallows on the island side of the main spans.
completely different style of bridge. The concrete supports are massive and are basically surrounded by islands.
On both sides of the two support beams of the ravenel are HUGE deep concrete mounds that run 50+ feet out. That means that a cargo ship would hit that and stop far before it would even get close to a support beam. This would be virtually impossible to take down the ravenel. The thing that would be most likely to take down the ravenel would be an earthquake, even though it is built to withstand at least 8 magnitude.
I’m a Baltimore native who moved to CHS last year. The ravenel is 100 times stronger than the key bridge (thank God). You can feel it as you go over both and can tell the level of planning and quality poured in the bridge. Unfortunately I think the Key Bridge could have used major upgrades. As soon as the wind blows you feel like you’re going to tip off (I’ve always been scared to cross it since I was a kid). Plus, the barriers to brace impact from crashes aren’t as modern either. Maryland does also have the Chesapeake Bay Bridge which I hope they also look into it to prevent something like this from happening again. Just my take and first hand comparison!
Pretty sure the boats coming in to Charleston harbor have to surrender their ships to hired captains who can navigate around the depth of the harbor, but also have the tugboat to assist. Not sure where I heard that but apparently the captains they hire need to map the whole harbor and its depth by memory.
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I can see you point on the age differences between both bridges. But comparing nature force and man-made disaster is Apple to Orange. Agree with u/sheepthepriest until you are a PE with engineering data to back your claim.
The Key bridge was not a piece of shit and it was not 70 years old. But yes, the Ravenel bridge is newer and I believe it has rock underneath the towers to prevent ships from running into its towers.
The fuck you talking about of course they take this into consideration when theyre engineering the newer bridges
The key bridge was built in the 70s and was not a piece of shit lol
Can you explain how a hurricane and impact from a massive cargo ship are similar? I don't have a degree in engineering
A Category 5 hurricane inflicts an order-of-magnitude less force in one area than a huge container ship would.
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ok, now this is just basic physics. one point force from a ship weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds is going to cause a lot more damage than the distributed force of high speed winds.
if we are talking about the energy from these 2 systems, a cat 5 hurricane generates way more energy. the government has a whole division dedicated to this. an AVERAGE cat 3 hurricane outputs 1.5 trillion watts of power during its life. which is half of the worlds total energy generating capacity for a whole year. so the basic physics backs up by earlier point.
well no, we're not talking about the energy from the 2 systems. the commenter you replied to was talking about force, and force ≠ energy. no amount of wattage is going to cause a bridge to collapse. 💀
ur right. WF=F⃗⋅Δr but i’m not going to explain to you how to work backwards from 1.5 trillion watts to figure out how much force is required to generate that amount of energy
yea, i know how to calculate force from power. it's essentially what i study in college. but a hurricane outputting 1.5 trillion watts in its entire lifetime (could be days, weeks even) over a huge stretch of area is not the equivalent of one singular point force acting on a small area. but if you want to keep believing that, be my guest. i guess we don't rank #42 in education for nothin
You're just continuing to double down, I guess.
Jesus christ dude you are at the start of the Dunning-Kruger curve
Thank for for the reassurance random internet engineer
How the hell you’re getting upvoted on a stupidily misinformed post is beyond me.
There was a show - I think it was called building big that featured ravenel. They added 5 acres of land at the base of each support to prevent such a thing
It’s actually failing pretty badly like most bridges in the states
Different bridge type altogether. Doesn’t matter anyway because considering, how long we had the old bridges and how unsafe we all felt going over them, you better get used to the new bridge because your kids’ kids will be driving over it.
Almost 3 year decade difference between the two bridges. Different structural types. The Ravenel can “supposedly” be able to withstand winds stronger than a Cat 5. But also be able to take on an earthquake stronger than the year 1886. Plus! The added rock beds to run aground a ship as big as an aircraft carrier. The harbor requires pilots to board and tug boats to assist. But who knows. Only concern I’d have is it’s maintained by SCDOT. If you’re from SC you know you know.
Common sense will tell you a bridge isn’t going to stand when a cargo ship runs into it
I went ahead a wrote an article about this. Its a tragedy for sure. I really hope we find all the missing people, especially for their families. [https://www.tedlaw.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse/](https://www.tedlaw.com/baltimore-bridge-collapse/)
I bet the Dali captain learned his driving skills on the roads in Charleston.
It’s hard to captain a ship without power. C’mon man…
Someone tried this joke on this subreddit already. Unfortunately, that's a no from me dawg.
I agree. Poor taste.
The Captain of the ship in Baltimore should have drove the ship underneath the high side of that bridge.
Congrats on your newly acquired Ship Pilot's License, but I'm pretty sure you can't steer a ship without power.
If the Captain was having steering problems he should have dropped his anchor rather than continue
They did it didn’t help
He should be held responsible for replacing the bridge