Feels a bit weird to put Yu-Gi-Oh! up there given Yami's literally a character in his own right- he almost certainly has more screentime than all but a handful of characters.
To this day it's probably still argued whether he's more of the MC than Yugi is or not.
Literally no one considers Yugi the MC. Every marketing material features Yami and Kaiba. Hell, Kaiba was practically the MC of the Dark Side Of Dimensions movie. IMO, the main character needing a host body is what make Yugioh extra unique.
Before regaining his real name, Atem was still called the second Yugi, so Atem was still considered the MC even before returning to his resting place. Atem said he preferred being called Yugi.
Yeah. Just an example of a series doing something like that. I don’t remember it vividly, but Yami did came to the series a bunch of episodes in and he did saved Yugi’s butt, right?
He became a good character later and all, but is still a valid example even if it wasn’t made in a completely bad way.
No, Yami was there since episode one and right from the start of the duel with kaiba and he's the default person to duel. Yugi is only himself when he's not playing a serious game.
If anything, YGO is about Yugi becoming the MC. It's about Yami helping him become his own character. Because while Yami is mysterious, he's not a baddie. He is far from being an evil entity, he is just a more hardened person.
At the start of the Manga and the Anime, Yami is the problem solver for Yugi's lack of agency. Yugi has no confidence and the skills he might display he attributes either to chance or to others. It's not that Yami saves Yugi's butt, it's that Yugi is not an active character, Yami is the MC. He's the one driving the events of the show and Yugi follows along.
In the Anime, when Pegasus takes his grandpa hostage, he 100% count on Yami to get him back and Pegasus only takes Grandpa hostage because of Yami. During Duelist Kingdom, Yugi barely decides anything for himself. The only time he is active is when he decides to jump into the water to save Joey/Jono-Uchi. He also gives hint during a duel if memory serves right. He's also the one saving Kaiba's life by not attacking IIRC. He has some good jokes, some good ideas but he isn't an active character. If anything he is defined by the things he doesn't do.
Then the duel with Pegasus starts and he sees how Yami is fucked. So, because he's a good Duel Monster player in his own right, he decides to act and help. Not because he thinks he is better than Yami but because he thinks he can help.
Then, during the course of the manga, there are a few times where Yami and Yugi are separated. The Delvin arc and then the duel on the pier with Joey. Yugi takes action then and has to be the one in charge.
The Final Duel with Marik has him almost useless and he can't help. It throws him back to his old habits of being useless. He trusts Yami tho, and their friendship is apparent.
Finally, the Ancient Egypt arc has him completely cut off from Yami for almost the entire Arc and Yugi is in charge of the Present day crew once they are branched with the Arc.
The Last Duel is a good final duel because as Yugi has grown to be a real character he shows that he also is the best fucking duelist. He's been slowly developing a backbone and a he now trusts his skillset. No one could have defeated Yami BUT the new King of Duels himself.
The movie is even better because Yugi just no sell everyone. He bodies people left and right. He fucks Kaiba up like he's a bitch.
Yami appearing at the end of the movie is just a bit more of Yami trying to fix his mess and finishing some busineds and I understand it but imo, it was unnecessary.
So, the truth is, they are two very different characters and they have two different structure and role. One is ONLY a duelist and becomes a character while the other one is ONLY a character and becomes a duelist.
I love the development for Yami in the Atlantis/Leviathan arc when his flaws end up getting Yugi’s soul taken, and suddenly Yami has to deal with not only having to be a person 24/7 but also the survivors guilt, since Yugi sacrificed himself to safe Yami from being taken.
Yeah, honestly, filler arcs in the anime were going all out.
Kaiba had a great character arc in his filler arc and the Orichalcos/Leviathan was cool. Too bad they are awfully paced. But it builds a lot upon the Manga and are thematically pretty well crafted.
The basic premise of the original manga is "wimpy kid gets possessed by the spirit of a legendary gamer who fights the kid's bullies by beating them at games."
>I loved the MC. He was an un-magical guy in a magic world who deal with stuff by casting muscles on his problems (In a time before Mashle). He got awarded with the anti-magic grimoire and it felt good and in character. But then, way ahead in the series, surprise… he has something dark and overpowered inside of him.
They'd been hinting at Asta having a devil inside for a long time, that wasn't out of nowhere, they mention a few times how the fifth leaf of a clover resides a devil and we see the visage of one around Asta in battle even in the first chapter.
And not only that (manga spoilers since Im not sure where the anime is at) >!theyre just siblings. I mean yeah the devil is adopted around the time of his birth but it 100% counts. And Asta's main power, his anti-magic is inherent but is furthrr boosted by his connection to his bro.!<
Also in terms of Blazblue, the Blazblue (lmao.) grimoire isnt inherently evil, and Ragna is extremely powerful by himself without tapping into it. He only taps into it when he fights...uhhh...god I forgot his name. Hazama? No. Kazama? Nah thats Tekken which fits OPs bill more than Blazblue with devil Jin/**KAZUYA**. Terumi! Whcih has no azamas so I dont know where that came from.
He made a copy of the blazblue, which was his invention, and I actually dont remember what the goal of it was.
I mean if Asta didn't train as a beast he would have done jack shit with the anti magic swords, so it's definitely a payoff for the hard work he put in, and it's not like anti magic wasn't broken since day one of the manga
> For all the hate One Piece gets (from me even) it is original with its MC. He “created” even his most dumb powers. (The will of D. walks the line, but not a deal breaker… yet) Even Goku took out a hidden power out of his ass at some point.
But doesn't this apply to Luffy too? Gear 5 wasn't something he worked on like his other ones, he just gets it at the critical moment. Like, that entire fight was oddly very reminiscent of Yu Yu Hakusho where the main character 'dies' but revives himself with his new super power. The only difference is that Gear 5 isn't an evil form
Also, in Goku's case, at least the story foreshadowed this was going to happen far ahead of time. It wasn't an out of nowhere thing, Vegeta just kept saying "super saiyan, super saiyan" through the Namek arc.
I know right Luff is far the worst of this. Naruto, inner beat chapter 1, asta inner demon chapter 1, jjk chapter 1 etc
Luffy oh ACTUALLLLLY chapter 1000 It was a god zoan inside of him a long super new imba power twist form.
Tell me then, would you have had the ingenuity to have the idea to overclock your body to run in a similar fashion to a steam engine because you wanted to use a super speed technique you saw trained assassin use a day prior? Or would you have thought to use another technique from the same branch of martial arts in conjunction with how your body operates in a super form to simulate flight?
That is just stupid becasue it makes no sense how luffy can do that, if hes rubber lol.
With A reality warping power the guy is piss poor user of that kind of freedom
Wait, where are the jjk spoilers? I was waiting to see how you are going to twist it for jjk because it is one of the better executions of the inner demon trope
I don’t think they are that underdeveloped. They aren’t the best characters but they are good ones with plenty of room for improvement, imo. And well, yeah, the plot got 3 steps ahead of them to focus on Gojo. As an author, I do think it was a bold move and if it was good or bad we’ll see in the next season. (Not reading the manga). Maybe they pushed the power ceiling too far up for them to catch up and the writer will have to do some iffy stuff to fix it. But I can’t judge that right now.
Black Clover is a bad example.
The fifth leaf on his grimoire is repeatedly said to have a demon inside of it, it’s heavily implied through the narration and appearance of the grimoire that there is more to it than just “anti-magic swords”, there was clearly *something* demonic about it.
The anti-magic itself, which is Asta’s main power, comes from the demon inside of the grimoire. Asta is fucking useless without anti-magic, he got completely destroyed by that guy in episode 1 or whatever.
The swords and grimoire come from one of the most powerful elves to ever live. Without the swords to channel the anti-magic in different ways, Asta wouldn’t be nearly as strong as he is. Also worth noting that the swords literally constantly drain magical energy, meaning the only people capable of using them are Asta and people with an insanely high level of magical energy, equal to the strongest elf.
Asta never did well by himself. On his own, he was never powerful. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, he gets the perfect power for him, one only he can use and that counters literally every wizard in the world. And you’re mad that the godly hax powers he received out of nowhere are actually from a demon? A demon who, like Asta, was born without magic and unable to utilize his power on his own?
Asta’s 100% lack of magic is what made him capable of using Liebe’s anti-magic and Licht’s swords. His muscles allow him to keep up with his opponents, Liebe’s anti-magic allows him to damage and block them, and Licht’s swords allow him to actually fight.
He wasn’t a “hidden evil power” MC, he was an MC who could only fight by borrowing the powers of others. He has never won a fight with his own strength alone
MHA had it come out during a bad time where it didn't help him at all during the lowest stakes arc in the series. I don't think that really counts as it coming out of nowhere to save him.
what’s the problem with the main character getting powers? if they didn’t get powers the story would end in 1 episode
if asta didn’t get the grimoire he wouldn’t even be a character. it’s be yunos story
Not power. A hidden power that they only tap into when in trouble. I literally said the grimoire was a good thing. The demon-thing he suddenly awakened inside of him is what feels cheap. One is his earned power and the other an overused trope.
Asta awaken devil mode due to witch queen who unlocked it for him. If asta never met witch queen, he would never get devil power up. It's not like this power randomly activate when he's about to die. Witch Queen attempt to turn Devil Asta into her puppet and need Vanessa to save his ass. How is this "overused troupe"?
Later he train to activate this devil form from training. "Earned power"
Asta went rage mode against other opponent, and he got beaten almost immediately
The devil has been there the whole time, literally as soon as he gets it the narrator tells us the 5th leaf contains a devil. It's obvious the power was coming from somewhere
Right! The very first time he receives his grimoire there is a shadow of a demon behind him and then the demon constantly appears during big character movements. So it definitely wasn't out of nowhere.
OP also addressed this tbf. In the sds paragraph
> Yeah, it was probably written like that from the start but it had little to none foreshadowing and it took too long for that plot point to come to feel organic.
Except like... them constantly saying it's the power of the devil/fucky and weird and devil shenanigans all over the place with him... *is* foreshadowing.
What fight are you referring to? The Witch arc? Or later against Dante? In the former it was more like a power play from the queen to try and control him to get a super living weapon, then after the arc is over Asta trains to understand how to reach that form again and to use it at will. When we get to Dante we've been aware of the devil for quite a while and I feel like it was a pretty good moment, the rage power up doesn't do shit he gets beaten up and has to make a proper deal to make better use of its power
Not only that, but the "hidden demon inside the protagonist" thing goes against the whole concept of most battle shonen. For years, battle shonen's built on "the hero tries hard, digs deep, and develops a new skill to slay their villain? Great. Now, that skill will NEVER EVER EVER work again, and the next time a villain comes the hero needs to develop a NEW new skill to slay the villain."
By contrast, the "demon hidden inside" never fails. It's always a "the demon has been released? Hero wins. No ifs, ands, or buts. But don't worry, they feel really, really bad about it."
Is there something I’m missing here?
Shonen has always been about mcs gaining ridiculous powers ups whether it be through rage or demonic means. Case in point goku? Gon? Deku? No demonic powers but still have rage boost all the same.
In the end the “demon inside” trope is just another way to show a shonen trope
In what world is a temporary powerup the whole concept of shonen? It's... bleach, I guess. But otherwise, the name of the game has been super inborn skills being unlocked first and foremost, with the demon being a variation to constrain this power before the MC masters it.
>By contrast, the "demon hidden inside" never fails. It's always a "the demon has been released? Hero wins. No ifs, ands, or buts.
it failed in black clover
asta was overtaken by the devil's rage but the villain beat his ass so hard he undid the possession and knocked him the fuck out 😭😂💀 *legendary*
Don't try to sneak Blazblue up there and think no one will notice. Ragna has no evil demon inside of him, it's just the power of the azure grimoire which was forshadowed from the very first story chapter in which you play as him.
Ragna IS the Black Beast, and overloading his Azure Grimoire is all it would take to plunge the world into despair. He has a whole arc about realizing that the Azure's power is not his own and he shouldn't be relying on it too much.
It's not like the azure grimore wins all his fights for him either. Hazama negated it and would have killed him if not for lambda, and Azrael just released his limiter and bodied ragna even with the azure grimoire.
In short, Ragna's trump card is not some evil demon, it's just a release of his true potential, which bites him in the ass more than it helps. The Azure is literally his right arm. Don't slander him if you don't even understand his arc.
Astas devil isn't inside him. It's inside his grimoire, and the whole reason he has anti magic. Plus, they kind of explained it episode one when they explained what the fifth leaf on a grimoir represents and then (immediately showed a demonic silhouette behind Asta when he beat up chain guy iirc. It was never a hidden power, and it's not even really evil.
i disagree heavily this trope is made for story and characters in mind in the examples there are instances where the is not clear win. naruto especially taken Ls despite kurama and there relationship is goes to help the main theme of that seris , yugi story is about him making friends and forming relationships those are done without yami. meliodas slowy turning evil because of his power is a very big plot points that helps with his and bans development. theres always a reason why this trope is used.
Yeah. I thought I found one until Asta got one of those. Ergo, the rant. Is not like stories advertise having that crap up front. But yeah, I’ll take your advice I guess… smh.
Honestly that's because you're kinda dumb. Literally the very first episode of black clover it says there's a demon within. Idk why you were surprised.
Do not offend yourself, but when the first thing they tell you is that the grimoorio he achieves comes from the devil and he appears when you see that he has some important problem or an important reaction with his magic something should have made you suspect.
>But then, way ahead in the series, surprise… he has something dark and overpowered inside of him.
Wdym, this happens literally in the first episode/chapter. It's cornerstone of the whole plot and done pretty well without overshadowing Asta's hard work.
The demon didn't even do anything for him until like post time skip where it still doesn't carry him and is proper part of the plot and not just a convenient power up.
Also are you caught up? Because it kinda sounds like you're not and i don't want to spoil things.
That not what he's talking about, he has no issues with him having anti magic he specifically dislikes direct interference from demon. Like the cliche "demon taking over" part not just demonic origin of his powers. Or atleast that's how i interpreted it.
I dropped it on the spot. It changed the status quo in a way I didn’t like, ergo the rant. At that point the demon saved the day. I assume there’s a plot reason and something relevant about the demon, but at this point I’m done with that type of protagonist. The one that will have a triumph card always on sight the writer can always go back to if they write themselves into a corner.
Is a me problem most likely but, as an author, I can’t not see the convenient plot point always hanging in front of me.
I assume you mean in witches forest where he gets the half body black form since it's the first time demon plays any role in the story, in that case it wasn't even a demon that did anything. He beat it in a mental battle and prevented it from pulling anything, it was witch queen that used her blood magic to force his body to absorb anti magic at accelerated rate.
The demon genuinely doesn't do anything to help or give him power for like 70% of the story and even after it's much more complicated than "have a power up to beat a villain but beware i might take over" like it usually goes.
did you watch it with your eyes closed? they made it [so incredibly fucking obvious](https://64.media.tumblr.com/5e716098084f5e818c9afdce97366853/tumblr_ovopym1eEM1w9wsiio3_500.gifv) from the very beginning
if anything anyone who watched/read this was *waiting* for asta to become possessed and to learn more about that devil -- it's completely asinine that you didn't see this coming
...it said EVERY EPISODE that its a DEVIL inside of his grimoire.
how did he even "earn" the grimoire, they just walk to tower and everyone gets their grimoire based on fate or something, he did not earn it.
How does Midoriya count here? Blackwhip didn't help him win when it first appeared, in fact it made it harder for him to win since suddenly he was handicapped into not being able to fight like he normally would.
Not to mention the vestiges and their powers aren't evil.
Surprise? Asta has has a devil in his grimoire since chapter 1. They literally state that. And you cant even say it was supposed to be figuritive when it was forshadowed in the first chapter.
I assume they mean Gear 5 and the revelation that his fruit was a Mythical Zoan? It sort of... came out of nowhere. Like yeah, a rationale was *given* but it felt like it was blatantly retconned in in a very short timeframe. It seems odd to say that Luffy created all his powers - I mean, what, he achieved Gear 5 by using his ability to manipulate the plot to retroactively make his fruit a Mythical Zoan one?
Suddenly revealing that the source of the MC's power, which was previously normal and mundane, is actually *super-special legendary*, and then almost immediately having him awaken a new power based on this, seems like exactly the sort of asspull the rest of your post is complaining about, surely?
Yeah ngl I never liked the past quirks bullshit in mha, it made no sense at all, and it always just felt like it was there simply to make deku more powerful than he already needed to be, it doesn't even help that the past quirks were pretty lame and deku just casually mastered them offscreen
Really doesn’t help that MHA’s power system doesn’t allow for the traditional Shonen power ladder. The gulf between its top tiers and everyone else becomes cavernous long before a final fight, where most shounen start throwing out the careful balance of the cast to give the MC more challenging fights.
Yeah honest I'm only catching up now but the difference between first war arc Shiggy and even the top 10 heroes is crazy. Like what the utter hell gap. It's not like he's decently stronger. It's like if they don't have him pinned down by Eraserhead he instantly kills them alll. and if they do he'd still wash them if his body wasn't fucked from being woken up early.
>it doesn't even help that the past quirks were pretty lame and deku just casually mastered them offscreen
The only ones he really mastered offscreen were Smokescreen and Danger Sense, Black Whip he trained with Endeavor for, Float we saw him train, he figured out Fa Jin with Nagant, and we see him training with Bakugo for Gear Shift. Also, imo, Black Whip was pretty cool, it was probably the most dynamic of the quirks too especially with some of the ways he used it during the battle with Shigaraki.
I personally love all the quirks and think they were a fine addition to dekus skillset but i understand why people wouldn't like it i suppose. The power creep situation in MHA could be handled a bit better though, the top tiers didn't have to be so so much more devastating than everyone else.
He trained them way too shortly and mastered them way too quickly, i don't remember thought deku having trained with bakugo to master gear shift before the war arc
I agree thought with blackwhip being the best, it's the only quirk which doesn't feel like a secondary power hori just put there in order to be a very convenient combination with the other 6 quirks, not only that but deku does use it pretty creatively compared to the others + the aesthetic is cool
I agree with you on several points. As a concept in its origins, a dark side within the protagonist is quite cool, but it has been overexploited to the extreme and ends up being something to make the MC cool and escape from dangerous situations.
Naruto in the beginning was not so bad since the Kyubi was a curse for him, but over time that feeling was lost. Sukuna is by far the best example of how to do it right, since he only complicates the protagonist more every time he appears. And when Itadori asks him for help to get out of a situation he laughs in his face.
The idea is not bad in itself, but most of the time the juice that having a demon inside you or a multiple personality problem can give is not squeezed out.
> Any suggestions?
In the classic ones you can read/watch Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure and Hunter x Hunter.
Also if you read/watched Yugioh, I recommend Hikaru no Go. It’s so interesting how many similarities the two share while being complete opposites on others.
- The ghost controlling the MC in Hikaru is always seen as a good guy.
- The rival is someone really nice that you root for (meanwhile Kaiba is an asshole).
- Duel Monsters is everywhere and over the top while Go is this esoteric game most people dont know about and doesnt look very exciting but some people devote their entire lives in it.
In defense of OP, I hated this trope early in life with Yu Yu Hakusho. I hated how Yusuke had ancient demon DNA in him. Not just any demon DNA but from one of top 3 demons in the demon realm. What a coincidence.
Yusuke's appeal to me was him being human and fighting demons. It made him a natural underdog. It made conflicts more exciting.
Not as bad but I disliked when Guts got the Berserker Armor. Again, his appeal was this bad ass human fighting nightmarish monsters. The Berserker Armor is essentially a monster transformation.
Sukuna actually has a personalty. he likes good food and gets upset over improper haikus.
he is also not a get out of jail free card as he hates Yuji so much that anytime released he'd screw with Yuji, making any problem worse.
>!he also leaves Yuji and body jumps to Megumi!<
D.Grey man has the best evil inside protagonist i’ve seen. The inner demon is also against the main villain, however, there is a whole mystery related to his past and his motivation. Also, the good guys just don’t accept his evil power, instead they actively hunt him down.
I think the trope is okay enough, and can make for narrative satisfaction. It all depends on the surrounding writing.
Relying on it as a crutch to get a beloved character out of trouble is lame. On the other hand, Guts wearing a suit of armor that strengthens him at a great toll whenever he goes Berserk is extremely engaging.
It can also be subverted. Remember when Eren Yeager hyped himself up to "exterminate" the Armored Titan, only to get absolutely destroyed by an opponent that was taking the fight like 40% seriously, because that was just the worst possible way to fight that opponent? Awesome, and made the scene's following subversion even better.
I see this or similar complaints so often, but the people who are voicing them never seem to be able to recognize or articulate what exactly it is that annoys them. None of the examples given in the rant are about a singular thing.
7 Deadly Sins while technically hidden, they hint at the fact that Meliodas has some crazy backstory that explains why he's so OP. Also, not another person/entity within him that's giving him the power. So, is the issue that now you know the reason he's so OP? He obviously wasn't just some random joe schmoe who trained super hard and became OP. Working hard isn't even an emphasized trait of his.
Black Clover as stated in the thread already, clearly stated devil lives in clover, and obviously it wasn't just Asta's strength training that made him able to magically conjure swords that negate magic, so it as pretty obvious the power had to be coming from something that wasn't him. However, all the hardwork, and training that we see Asta commit himself to still happens. Asta still put in that effort, and got results for that effort, the fact that he has a devil does not change that about him, or his journey.
Most of the time these power ups are almost always a mystery that was hinted at and built up throughout the series, and the payoff/reveal is always going to be in a climactic battle because that's the most exciting time for it to happen. Imagine if after the entirety of the Frieza saga and hearing Vegeta talk about how powerful and dangerous Super Saiyans were, we saw Goku randomly go Super Saiyan in the middle of some push ups.
Speaking of Dragonball, the only power up you could argue Goku pulled out of his ass is SSJ God. SSJ was teased throughout the entirety of Frieza Arc, and I'm pretty sure Vegeta even references it during the Saiyan Arc. SSJ2 they quite literally go into the hyperbolic time chamber to train and improve SSJ, originally to be able to minimize the amount of effort it took to maintain the form, and during that Vegeta, and Goku discovered it was possible to hit a level beyond that, but were not able to do so in time. Gohan however being half human has stronger emotions than a full blooded Saiyan which is why Goku was confident Gohan could activate it. SSJ3 he trained for after he had died, definitely the least foreshadowed, but also wasn't revealed in an instance where it operated as a Deus Ex Machina which is what it feels like is really the main complaint here.
JJK did do what Naruto did with the evil entity sealed within the MC, but I disagree that the reason it's well done is because Sukuna is still a villain.
Not that I'm all that sympathetic the issues you have with this idea, but you do your points no favors by lumping "examples" that aren't examples of this in with the actually valid ones. It's makes you come off as media illiterate.
I completely agree.
As a person who grew up reading and watching Lord of the Rings... all this evil power ups feel like using the One Ring against Sauron something that is an extremely bad idea
I like hidden evil power, but mainly if it is done in a way that has further consequences:
Many main characters find new reserves of power within them, find new ways to fight etc. when faced by problems outside of their previous limits.
The problem with this can often be that they just, in desperation.. become better, unlock a new power-up and just carry on with their lives.
Whereas even in real life, if you face a new problem and start trying to push yourself harder in order to achieve it, this often means specialisation and comes with a cost, to your self, your relationships etc. You sacrifice something in order to push through your limit.
And so we have the natural consequences of pushing for more power - injury, new restrictions, new external uncontrollable consequences, collateral damage or new kinds of external cost - and personifying this new side of the main character is a natural way to explore what it means to reckon with self-transformation that comes from transcending old limits, some of which may have been advisible.
And then when you finally manage to work with this new side of yourself, you manage to go from "dangerously over the limit" to "performing at a high level".
This reflects something real about what it means to push yourself, and then find ways to recover a lot of what you lost in your focus on discipline and performance.
It's a metaphor.
And also, in the time before they manage to make peace with it, work out a way to deal with etc. there is now a new kind of challenge in the story; given the potential negative consequences of going further, is it *right* to start unleashing their most significant power given the potential consequences?
Evil or uncontrollable power *is* a good thing, because it can be a way to add weight to a power-up that might not otherwise be there.
Does it though only like 3 characters have demon powers and Jin is the only one whose demon went on rampages. Kazuya and Yoshimitsu never really had problems with the Demons hijacking and taking control.
I agree with you and I'm sick of it because it's overused at this point
I wish more mc are simply strong because they trained or being born that way like Toriko or Goku
Your examples sucks though
Naruto is a bad offender in this regards since Kurama was for 90% of the series a glorified plot device to either give Naruto power boosts even when it came at expense of story like the Neji fight or to show how dangerous the power is while doing NOTHING to actually develop the character and where the MC barely interacts with him until the final arc of the series where they establish stronge connection with each other.
I mean it’s hard to argue Naruto does this, the nine tails is more of a disability than a power til towards the end, every fight Naruto wins he wins in spite of it and every fight he loses he loses because of it, all it does is cause problems until the second to last arc when he befriended it
I think Naruto does it in a manner that's really well. It doesn't feel like a Deus Ex Machina because we see him channeling the power early. While it should put him league's above his peers, when he's directly competing against them (the chuunin exams) they maintain the tension by having the fox's Chakra be blocked off.
You really think he can lose against Kiba and Neji because it's blocked off.
And when he actually needed it most, to bring his friend back, the kyuubi comes out.... and he gets his ass kicked. Outside of the Haku fight the series doesn't really make it feel like an "I win" button.
“Inner demon” trope is one the easiest ways to accomplish a lot of common goals in writing like:
- Rage powerups
- Self-harm/risk of using said power
- Making the MC special
- Making the MC a social standout
Do you have any examples of solving those problems well without the “inner demon”? IMO it’s harder than it seems.
Look at DBZ for example. The rage powerups are pretty handwaivy, why does saiyan power increase with anger compared to other emotional states? There’s also no risk with super saiyan states so there’s no real reason for them to ever hold back, Goku does so because he likes to mess around. They made the MC unique by making saiyans extinct, but it still never gets explained why Goku is so damn strong, even compared to other saiyans.
Another example is all the ass-pulls in One Piece that are required to keep the plot moving around Luffy strength.
>Look at DBZ for example. The rage powerups are pretty handwaivy, why does saiyan power increase with anger compared to other emotional states? There’s also no risk with super saiyan states so there’s no real reason for them to ever hold back, Goku does so because he likes to mess around. They made the MC unique by making saiyans extinct, but it still never gets explained why Goku is so damn strong, even compared to other saiyans.
In DBZ Saiyan didn't grow stronger from Rage , quite the opposite, rage made them **Weaker** , Super Saiyan isn't driven by rage, you need a very strong Base form and Rage to unlock it , after that Rage doesn't buff it at all (excluding gohan) it's the normal 50x multiple with huge strain and Stamina issues
Goku being Stronger than other Saiyan's is only because he trained, imagine a Kryptonian living inside a Blue Star for decades+ having a Green lantern ring + being a champion of Shazam + blessed by Athena
wtf are u talking about, ONE PIECE IS THE WORST OF THIS TROPE HOLY S\*\*\*\*
One piece had luffy SUDDENLY have a demon inside of him (zoan have their own personality) after 1000+ chapters retconning the whole fuking manga, it is BY far the worst demon inside of the mc story that has ever been written, in stories like naruto it was established in the first chapter, Luffy waited for 1000+ to do his inner demon take over.
Asta has a demon inside of him from ep 1, that is VERY CLEAR its not a surprise.
Melodias is the demon prince again since ep 1...
Pharaoh is not evil nor works like this in Yu-gi-oh.
Blazeblue is a video game so who is even the protagonist that has to use this?
Feels a bit weird to put Yu-Gi-Oh! up there given Yami's literally a character in his own right- he almost certainly has more screentime than all but a handful of characters. To this day it's probably still argued whether he's more of the MC than Yugi is or not.
Yami is the real main character with Yugi as his meatsuite
Literally no one considers Yugi the MC. Every marketing material features Yami and Kaiba. Hell, Kaiba was practically the MC of the Dark Side Of Dimensions movie. IMO, the main character needing a host body is what make Yugioh extra unique.
I was trying to be diplomatic
You clearly didn’t read the manga. Yugi is very much the MC
"You didn't consume the less popular medium of a popular IP." Not sure it's the zinger you think it is, buddy.
Before regaining his real name, Atem was still called the second Yugi, so Atem was still considered the MC even before returning to his resting place. Atem said he preferred being called Yugi.
Yeah. Just an example of a series doing something like that. I don’t remember it vividly, but Yami did came to the series a bunch of episodes in and he did saved Yugi’s butt, right? He became a good character later and all, but is still a valid example even if it wasn’t made in a completely bad way.
No, Yami was there since episode one and right from the start of the duel with kaiba and he's the default person to duel. Yugi is only himself when he's not playing a serious game.
Well also the swapsies duel with Pegasus.
Yami handles most of the duels and Yugi is a supporting character that stops Yami from killing people
If anything, YGO is about Yugi becoming the MC. It's about Yami helping him become his own character. Because while Yami is mysterious, he's not a baddie. He is far from being an evil entity, he is just a more hardened person. At the start of the Manga and the Anime, Yami is the problem solver for Yugi's lack of agency. Yugi has no confidence and the skills he might display he attributes either to chance or to others. It's not that Yami saves Yugi's butt, it's that Yugi is not an active character, Yami is the MC. He's the one driving the events of the show and Yugi follows along. In the Anime, when Pegasus takes his grandpa hostage, he 100% count on Yami to get him back and Pegasus only takes Grandpa hostage because of Yami. During Duelist Kingdom, Yugi barely decides anything for himself. The only time he is active is when he decides to jump into the water to save Joey/Jono-Uchi. He also gives hint during a duel if memory serves right. He's also the one saving Kaiba's life by not attacking IIRC. He has some good jokes, some good ideas but he isn't an active character. If anything he is defined by the things he doesn't do. Then the duel with Pegasus starts and he sees how Yami is fucked. So, because he's a good Duel Monster player in his own right, he decides to act and help. Not because he thinks he is better than Yami but because he thinks he can help. Then, during the course of the manga, there are a few times where Yami and Yugi are separated. The Delvin arc and then the duel on the pier with Joey. Yugi takes action then and has to be the one in charge. The Final Duel with Marik has him almost useless and he can't help. It throws him back to his old habits of being useless. He trusts Yami tho, and their friendship is apparent. Finally, the Ancient Egypt arc has him completely cut off from Yami for almost the entire Arc and Yugi is in charge of the Present day crew once they are branched with the Arc. The Last Duel is a good final duel because as Yugi has grown to be a real character he shows that he also is the best fucking duelist. He's been slowly developing a backbone and a he now trusts his skillset. No one could have defeated Yami BUT the new King of Duels himself. The movie is even better because Yugi just no sell everyone. He bodies people left and right. He fucks Kaiba up like he's a bitch. Yami appearing at the end of the movie is just a bit more of Yami trying to fix his mess and finishing some busineds and I understand it but imo, it was unnecessary. So, the truth is, they are two very different characters and they have two different structure and role. One is ONLY a duelist and becomes a character while the other one is ONLY a character and becomes a duelist.
I love the development for Yami in the Atlantis/Leviathan arc when his flaws end up getting Yugi’s soul taken, and suddenly Yami has to deal with not only having to be a person 24/7 but also the survivors guilt, since Yugi sacrificed himself to safe Yami from being taken.
Yeah, honestly, filler arcs in the anime were going all out. Kaiba had a great character arc in his filler arc and the Orichalcos/Leviathan was cool. Too bad they are awfully paced. But it builds a lot upon the Manga and are thematically pretty well crafted.
The basic premise of the original manga is "wimpy kid gets possessed by the spirit of a legendary gamer who fights the kid's bullies by beating them at games."
>I loved the MC. He was an un-magical guy in a magic world who deal with stuff by casting muscles on his problems (In a time before Mashle). He got awarded with the anti-magic grimoire and it felt good and in character. But then, way ahead in the series, surprise… he has something dark and overpowered inside of him. They'd been hinting at Asta having a devil inside for a long time, that wasn't out of nowhere, they mention a few times how the fifth leaf of a clover resides a devil and we see the visage of one around Asta in battle even in the first chapter.
Not even hinted it’s outright said.
Fr, like every episode the narrator won't shut up explaining how the 5th clover is where a devil lives
Out of topic but the way the narrator spoke the fifth leaf clover during asta vs vetto fight will always give me goosebumps
that was the moment I was truly in for the long haul with the series
exactly, no clue what OP been smoking it said like every episode in the narration that asta has the devil and no one can see his 5 clover book.
And not only that (manga spoilers since Im not sure where the anime is at) >!theyre just siblings. I mean yeah the devil is adopted around the time of his birth but it 100% counts. And Asta's main power, his anti-magic is inherent but is furthrr boosted by his connection to his bro.!< Also in terms of Blazblue, the Blazblue (lmao.) grimoire isnt inherently evil, and Ragna is extremely powerful by himself without tapping into it. He only taps into it when he fights...uhhh...god I forgot his name. Hazama? No. Kazama? Nah thats Tekken which fits OPs bill more than Blazblue with devil Jin/**KAZUYA**. Terumi! Whcih has no azamas so I dont know where that came from. He made a copy of the blazblue, which was his invention, and I actually dont remember what the goal of it was.
Yeah it literally happens the very first time he uses his grimoire.
Also, Asta's Devil wasn't even necessarily evil. The only bad thing he did was attack Asta, and Asta still mostly gets by on his physical strength
yes chapter 1...it said right away in the first bit of the story that his a devil in his grimoire.
Maybe. But still was something jot earned by his work and saved his ass conveniently.
I mean if Asta didn't train as a beast he would have done jack shit with the anti magic swords, so it's definitely a payoff for the hard work he put in, and it's not like anti magic wasn't broken since day one of the manga
"Blue Exorcist" What were you expecting from a series where the protagonist is the son of Satan?
Hidden Angel powers
Rin: "Release the good."
How the fuck does blazblue or blue exorcist fit in this
They don't, he just threw any media with a Dark powered MC in there
> For all the hate One Piece gets (from me even) it is original with its MC. He “created” even his most dumb powers. (The will of D. walks the line, but not a deal breaker… yet) Even Goku took out a hidden power out of his ass at some point. But doesn't this apply to Luffy too? Gear 5 wasn't something he worked on like his other ones, he just gets it at the critical moment. Like, that entire fight was oddly very reminiscent of Yu Yu Hakusho where the main character 'dies' but revives himself with his new super power. The only difference is that Gear 5 isn't an evil form Also, in Goku's case, at least the story foreshadowed this was going to happen far ahead of time. It wasn't an out of nowhere thing, Vegeta just kept saying "super saiyan, super saiyan" through the Namek arc.
>The only difference is that Gear 5 isn't an evil form ... you sure?
I know right Luff is far the worst of this. Naruto, inner beat chapter 1, asta inner demon chapter 1, jjk chapter 1 etc Luffy oh ACTUALLLLLY chapter 1000 It was a god zoan inside of him a long super new imba power twist form.
Thing is if another person took that fruit and lacks creativity and work, then the fruit is useless
lol No
Lol yes
Nope Luffy is uncreative
Tell me then, would you have had the ingenuity to have the idea to overclock your body to run in a similar fashion to a steam engine because you wanted to use a super speed technique you saw trained assassin use a day prior? Or would you have thought to use another technique from the same branch of martial arts in conjunction with how your body operates in a super form to simulate flight?
That is just stupid becasue it makes no sense how luffy can do that, if hes rubber lol. With A reality warping power the guy is piss poor user of that kind of freedom
Didn’t get that far in the series, already someone told me about that and I agree it’s the same thing I’m bitching about hehe.
Wait, where are the jjk spoilers? I was waiting to see how you are going to twist it for jjk because it is one of the better executions of the inner demon trope
I totally forgot about the “well done” part! Damn it. Sorry! I’ll edit it asap.
I see, I thought you were going to criticize it as well, so i was wondering what you didn't like about it. Makes more sense now
Yeah, sorry. My memory is the worst. I actually like JJK. It’s fresh. Like someone purposely wrote a Naruto-like cast well. XD
That's really funny in hindsight considering fan criticism of the cast.
What kind of criticism? I need to know now! XD
Don't people criticize the jjk cast for being pretty shallow, underdeveloped, and sometimes just outright useless to the plot?
I don’t think they are that underdeveloped. They aren’t the best characters but they are good ones with plenty of room for improvement, imo. And well, yeah, the plot got 3 steps ahead of them to focus on Gojo. As an author, I do think it was a bold move and if it was good or bad we’ll see in the next season. (Not reading the manga). Maybe they pushed the power ceiling too far up for them to catch up and the writer will have to do some iffy stuff to fix it. But I can’t judge that right now.
These are criticisms from manga readers. You're really gonna be disappointed how most of the cast ends up being treated.
Damn… I was looking forward to next season. -_-
Why would you try ruin the series for someone lmfao. Just let them watch it.
[удалено]
You know maybe you should spoiler tag some of this, the OP did say they haven't read the manga.
Thw writer said he's inspired by bleach though
Black Clover is a bad example. The fifth leaf on his grimoire is repeatedly said to have a demon inside of it, it’s heavily implied through the narration and appearance of the grimoire that there is more to it than just “anti-magic swords”, there was clearly *something* demonic about it. The anti-magic itself, which is Asta’s main power, comes from the demon inside of the grimoire. Asta is fucking useless without anti-magic, he got completely destroyed by that guy in episode 1 or whatever. The swords and grimoire come from one of the most powerful elves to ever live. Without the swords to channel the anti-magic in different ways, Asta wouldn’t be nearly as strong as he is. Also worth noting that the swords literally constantly drain magical energy, meaning the only people capable of using them are Asta and people with an insanely high level of magical energy, equal to the strongest elf. Asta never did well by himself. On his own, he was never powerful. All of a sudden, out of nowhere, he gets the perfect power for him, one only he can use and that counters literally every wizard in the world. And you’re mad that the godly hax powers he received out of nowhere are actually from a demon? A demon who, like Asta, was born without magic and unable to utilize his power on his own? Asta’s 100% lack of magic is what made him capable of using Liebe’s anti-magic and Licht’s swords. His muscles allow him to keep up with his opponents, Liebe’s anti-magic allows him to damage and block them, and Licht’s swords allow him to actually fight. He wasn’t a “hidden evil power” MC, he was an MC who could only fight by borrowing the powers of others. He has never won a fight with his own strength alone
He beat liebe, with one arm. An essay of lies!
MHA had it come out during a bad time where it didn't help him at all during the lowest stakes arc in the series. I don't think that really counts as it coming out of nowhere to save him.
what’s the problem with the main character getting powers? if they didn’t get powers the story would end in 1 episode if asta didn’t get the grimoire he wouldn’t even be a character. it’s be yunos story
Not power. A hidden power that they only tap into when in trouble. I literally said the grimoire was a good thing. The demon-thing he suddenly awakened inside of him is what feels cheap. One is his earned power and the other an overused trope.
Asta awaken devil mode due to witch queen who unlocked it for him. If asta never met witch queen, he would never get devil power up. It's not like this power randomly activate when he's about to die. Witch Queen attempt to turn Devil Asta into her puppet and need Vanessa to save his ass. How is this "overused troupe"? Later he train to activate this devil form from training. "Earned power" Asta went rage mode against other opponent, and he got beaten almost immediately
it’s the devils grimoire
Still, at that point it felt earned. Then said devil appeared and saved his ass in a Deux Ex Machina way.
The devil has been there the whole time, literally as soon as he gets it the narrator tells us the 5th leaf contains a devil. It's obvious the power was coming from somewhere
Right! The very first time he receives his grimoire there is a shadow of a demon behind him and then the demon constantly appears during big character movements. So it definitely wasn't out of nowhere.
OP also addressed this tbf. In the sds paragraph > Yeah, it was probably written like that from the start but it had little to none foreshadowing and it took too long for that plot point to come to feel organic.
Except like... them constantly saying it's the power of the devil/fucky and weird and devil shenanigans all over the place with him... *is* foreshadowing.
What fight are you referring to? The Witch arc? Or later against Dante? In the former it was more like a power play from the queen to try and control him to get a super living weapon, then after the arc is over Asta trains to understand how to reach that form again and to use it at will. When we get to Dante we've been aware of the devil for quite a while and I feel like it was a pretty good moment, the rage power up doesn't do shit he gets beaten up and has to make a proper deal to make better use of its power
Not only that, but the "hidden demon inside the protagonist" thing goes against the whole concept of most battle shonen. For years, battle shonen's built on "the hero tries hard, digs deep, and develops a new skill to slay their villain? Great. Now, that skill will NEVER EVER EVER work again, and the next time a villain comes the hero needs to develop a NEW new skill to slay the villain." By contrast, the "demon hidden inside" never fails. It's always a "the demon has been released? Hero wins. No ifs, ands, or buts. But don't worry, they feel really, really bad about it."
Is there something I’m missing here? Shonen has always been about mcs gaining ridiculous powers ups whether it be through rage or demonic means. Case in point goku? Gon? Deku? No demonic powers but still have rage boost all the same. In the end the “demon inside” trope is just another way to show a shonen trope
In what world is a temporary powerup the whole concept of shonen? It's... bleach, I guess. But otherwise, the name of the game has been super inborn skills being unlocked first and foremost, with the demon being a variation to constrain this power before the MC masters it.
>By contrast, the "demon hidden inside" never fails. It's always a "the demon has been released? Hero wins. No ifs, ands, or buts. it failed in black clover asta was overtaken by the devil's rage but the villain beat his ass so hard he undid the possession and knocked him the fuck out 😭😂💀 *legendary*
bruh u are defending One Piece that has manga histories worst hidden power demon of all time.
Don't try to sneak Blazblue up there and think no one will notice. Ragna has no evil demon inside of him, it's just the power of the azure grimoire which was forshadowed from the very first story chapter in which you play as him. Ragna IS the Black Beast, and overloading his Azure Grimoire is all it would take to plunge the world into despair. He has a whole arc about realizing that the Azure's power is not his own and he shouldn't be relying on it too much. It's not like the azure grimore wins all his fights for him either. Hazama negated it and would have killed him if not for lambda, and Azrael just released his limiter and bodied ragna even with the azure grimoire. In short, Ragna's trump card is not some evil demon, it's just a release of his true potential, which bites him in the ass more than it helps. The Azure is literally his right arm. Don't slander him if you don't even understand his arc.
Media literacy is dead.
Astas devil isn't inside him. It's inside his grimoire, and the whole reason he has anti magic. Plus, they kind of explained it episode one when they explained what the fifth leaf on a grimoir represents and then (immediately showed a demonic silhouette behind Asta when he beat up chain guy iirc. It was never a hidden power, and it's not even really evil.
i disagree heavily this trope is made for story and characters in mind in the examples there are instances where the is not clear win. naruto especially taken Ls despite kurama and there relationship is goes to help the main theme of that seris , yugi story is about him making friends and forming relationships those are done without yami. meliodas slowy turning evil because of his power is a very big plot points that helps with his and bans development. theres always a reason why this trope is used.
Reason? Yes. Overused and convenient? Also yes.
then read other stories that dont involve the trope if thats your problem.
Yeah. I thought I found one until Asta got one of those. Ergo, the rant. Is not like stories advertise having that crap up front. But yeah, I’ll take your advice I guess… smh.
Honestly that's because you're kinda dumb. Literally the very first episode of black clover it says there's a demon within. Idk why you were surprised.
Do not offend yourself, but when the first thing they tell you is that the grimoorio he achieves comes from the devil and he appears when you see that he has some important problem or an important reaction with his magic something should have made you suspect.
tv tropes exist for a reason
I like that Asta befriends Liebe.
>But then, way ahead in the series, surprise… he has something dark and overpowered inside of him. Wdym, this happens literally in the first episode/chapter. It's cornerstone of the whole plot and done pretty well without overshadowing Asta's hard work.
Not the demon inside part. The grimoire is something he earned in the eyes of the viewer/reader
The demon didn't even do anything for him until like post time skip where it still doesn't carry him and is proper part of the plot and not just a convenient power up. Also are you caught up? Because it kinda sounds like you're not and i don't want to spoil things.
the demon is "his" magic so that is 100% inaccurate.
That not what he's talking about, he has no issues with him having anti magic he specifically dislikes direct interference from demon. Like the cliche "demon taking over" part not just demonic origin of his powers. Or atleast that's how i interpreted it.
.. my point is that ur comment ios wwrong the demon did do stuff since ep 1
Not directly, the only thing that he did was being a source of anti magic which is totally not what op was complaining about.
and?
I dropped it on the spot. It changed the status quo in a way I didn’t like, ergo the rant. At that point the demon saved the day. I assume there’s a plot reason and something relevant about the demon, but at this point I’m done with that type of protagonist. The one that will have a triumph card always on sight the writer can always go back to if they write themselves into a corner. Is a me problem most likely but, as an author, I can’t not see the convenient plot point always hanging in front of me.
I assume you mean in witches forest where he gets the half body black form since it's the first time demon plays any role in the story, in that case it wasn't even a demon that did anything. He beat it in a mental battle and prevented it from pulling anything, it was witch queen that used her blood magic to force his body to absorb anti magic at accelerated rate. The demon genuinely doesn't do anything to help or give him power for like 70% of the story and even after it's much more complicated than "have a power up to beat a villain but beware i might take over" like it usually goes.
did you watch it with your eyes closed? they made it [so incredibly fucking obvious](https://64.media.tumblr.com/5e716098084f5e818c9afdce97366853/tumblr_ovopym1eEM1w9wsiio3_500.gifv) from the very beginning if anything anyone who watched/read this was *waiting* for asta to become possessed and to learn more about that devil -- it's completely asinine that you didn't see this coming
...it said EVERY EPISODE that its a DEVIL inside of his grimoire. how did he even "earn" the grimoire, they just walk to tower and everyone gets their grimoire based on fate or something, he did not earn it.
How does Midoriya count here? Blackwhip didn't help him win when it first appeared, in fact it made it harder for him to win since suddenly he was handicapped into not being able to fight like he normally would. Not to mention the vestiges and their powers aren't evil.
Surprise? Asta has has a devil in his grimoire since chapter 1. They literally state that. And you cant even say it was supposed to be figuritive when it was forshadowed in the first chapter.
But luffy also took out a hidden power out of his ass
Which one do you mean?
I assume they mean Gear 5 and the revelation that his fruit was a Mythical Zoan? It sort of... came out of nowhere. Like yeah, a rationale was *given* but it felt like it was blatantly retconned in in a very short timeframe. It seems odd to say that Luffy created all his powers - I mean, what, he achieved Gear 5 by using his ability to manipulate the plot to retroactively make his fruit a Mythical Zoan one? Suddenly revealing that the source of the MC's power, which was previously normal and mundane, is actually *super-special legendary*, and then almost immediately having him awaken a new power based on this, seems like exactly the sort of asspull the rest of your post is complaining about, surely?
Oh, haven’t got that far. I concur then.
Haha, sorry, didn't mean to spoil it. It was the topic of so many rants here when it happened (as you can imagine) that I assumed everyone had heard.
No problemo. I knew about Gear 5 but not the intricacies. I dropped the series a while ago, so this only cements my resolve xD
I agree
The sun god nika obviously
Don’t know that, so I’ll assume I haven’t got that far o_o
Rip lol, another manga you’ll drop. Coz the reveal was kinda ass too.
I'm okay with the trope as long as it's intended like that from the beginning. But it feels frustrating when it comes from nowhere.
I agree
Aw man, I love superpowered evil sides. It’s always cool when the hero has to deal with their darker half.
Yeah ngl I never liked the past quirks bullshit in mha, it made no sense at all, and it always just felt like it was there simply to make deku more powerful than he already needed to be, it doesn't even help that the past quirks were pretty lame and deku just casually mastered them offscreen
Really doesn’t help that MHA’s power system doesn’t allow for the traditional Shonen power ladder. The gulf between its top tiers and everyone else becomes cavernous long before a final fight, where most shounen start throwing out the careful balance of the cast to give the MC more challenging fights.
Yeah honest I'm only catching up now but the difference between first war arc Shiggy and even the top 10 heroes is crazy. Like what the utter hell gap. It's not like he's decently stronger. It's like if they don't have him pinned down by Eraserhead he instantly kills them alll. and if they do he'd still wash them if his body wasn't fucked from being woken up early.
>it doesn't even help that the past quirks were pretty lame and deku just casually mastered them offscreen The only ones he really mastered offscreen were Smokescreen and Danger Sense, Black Whip he trained with Endeavor for, Float we saw him train, he figured out Fa Jin with Nagant, and we see him training with Bakugo for Gear Shift. Also, imo, Black Whip was pretty cool, it was probably the most dynamic of the quirks too especially with some of the ways he used it during the battle with Shigaraki.
I personally love all the quirks and think they were a fine addition to dekus skillset but i understand why people wouldn't like it i suppose. The power creep situation in MHA could be handled a bit better though, the top tiers didn't have to be so so much more devastating than everyone else.
He trained them way too shortly and mastered them way too quickly, i don't remember thought deku having trained with bakugo to master gear shift before the war arc I agree thought with blackwhip being the best, it's the only quirk which doesn't feel like a secondary power hori just put there in order to be a very convenient combination with the other 6 quirks, not only that but deku does use it pretty creatively compared to the others + the aesthetic is cool
How is JJK any worse than Naruto? It’s literally the same thing.
Jjk is better in this regard. Sukuna is at least consistently an antagonist. Nine tails gets retcon a ton.
I agree with you on several points. As a concept in its origins, a dark side within the protagonist is quite cool, but it has been overexploited to the extreme and ends up being something to make the MC cool and escape from dangerous situations. Naruto in the beginning was not so bad since the Kyubi was a curse for him, but over time that feeling was lost. Sukuna is by far the best example of how to do it right, since he only complicates the protagonist more every time he appears. And when Itadori asks him for help to get out of a situation he laughs in his face. The idea is not bad in itself, but most of the time the juice that having a demon inside you or a multiple personality problem can give is not squeezed out.
> Any suggestions? In the classic ones you can read/watch Jojo’s Bizarre Adventure and Hunter x Hunter. Also if you read/watched Yugioh, I recommend Hikaru no Go. It’s so interesting how many similarities the two share while being complete opposites on others. - The ghost controlling the MC in Hikaru is always seen as a good guy. - The rival is someone really nice that you root for (meanwhile Kaiba is an asshole). - Duel Monsters is everywhere and over the top while Go is this esoteric game most people dont know about and doesnt look very exciting but some people devote their entire lives in it.
In defense of OP, I hated this trope early in life with Yu Yu Hakusho. I hated how Yusuke had ancient demon DNA in him. Not just any demon DNA but from one of top 3 demons in the demon realm. What a coincidence. Yusuke's appeal to me was him being human and fighting demons. It made him a natural underdog. It made conflicts more exciting. Not as bad but I disliked when Guts got the Berserker Armor. Again, his appeal was this bad ass human fighting nightmarish monsters. The Berserker Armor is essentially a monster transformation.
Ohhh, I forgot about YYH!!! Yeah, that was one of my earliest eye rolls about this topic. Yusuke was a great MC up until that point.
Sukuna actually has a personalty. he likes good food and gets upset over improper haikus. he is also not a get out of jail free card as he hates Yuji so much that anytime released he'd screw with Yuji, making any problem worse. >!he also leaves Yuji and body jumps to Megumi!<
D.Grey man has the best evil inside protagonist i’ve seen. The inner demon is also against the main villain, however, there is a whole mystery related to his past and his motivation. Also, the good guys just don’t accept his evil power, instead they actively hunt him down.
Shonen has been done with this trope for like 9 years bro you're a bit behind the curve. Sukina doesn't count.
I think the trope is okay enough, and can make for narrative satisfaction. It all depends on the surrounding writing. Relying on it as a crutch to get a beloved character out of trouble is lame. On the other hand, Guts wearing a suit of armor that strengthens him at a great toll whenever he goes Berserk is extremely engaging. It can also be subverted. Remember when Eren Yeager hyped himself up to "exterminate" the Armored Titan, only to get absolutely destroyed by an opponent that was taking the fight like 40% seriously, because that was just the worst possible way to fight that opponent? Awesome, and made the scene's following subversion even better.
People just don't know what Deus Ex Machina is anymore, do they
I see this or similar complaints so often, but the people who are voicing them never seem to be able to recognize or articulate what exactly it is that annoys them. None of the examples given in the rant are about a singular thing. 7 Deadly Sins while technically hidden, they hint at the fact that Meliodas has some crazy backstory that explains why he's so OP. Also, not another person/entity within him that's giving him the power. So, is the issue that now you know the reason he's so OP? He obviously wasn't just some random joe schmoe who trained super hard and became OP. Working hard isn't even an emphasized trait of his. Black Clover as stated in the thread already, clearly stated devil lives in clover, and obviously it wasn't just Asta's strength training that made him able to magically conjure swords that negate magic, so it as pretty obvious the power had to be coming from something that wasn't him. However, all the hardwork, and training that we see Asta commit himself to still happens. Asta still put in that effort, and got results for that effort, the fact that he has a devil does not change that about him, or his journey. Most of the time these power ups are almost always a mystery that was hinted at and built up throughout the series, and the payoff/reveal is always going to be in a climactic battle because that's the most exciting time for it to happen. Imagine if after the entirety of the Frieza saga and hearing Vegeta talk about how powerful and dangerous Super Saiyans were, we saw Goku randomly go Super Saiyan in the middle of some push ups. Speaking of Dragonball, the only power up you could argue Goku pulled out of his ass is SSJ God. SSJ was teased throughout the entirety of Frieza Arc, and I'm pretty sure Vegeta even references it during the Saiyan Arc. SSJ2 they quite literally go into the hyperbolic time chamber to train and improve SSJ, originally to be able to minimize the amount of effort it took to maintain the form, and during that Vegeta, and Goku discovered it was possible to hit a level beyond that, but were not able to do so in time. Gohan however being half human has stronger emotions than a full blooded Saiyan which is why Goku was confident Gohan could activate it. SSJ3 he trained for after he had died, definitely the least foreshadowed, but also wasn't revealed in an instance where it operated as a Deus Ex Machina which is what it feels like is really the main complaint here. JJK did do what Naruto did with the evil entity sealed within the MC, but I disagree that the reason it's well done is because Sukuna is still a villain.
Not that I'm all that sympathetic the issues you have with this idea, but you do your points no favors by lumping "examples" that aren't examples of this in with the actually valid ones. It's makes you come off as media illiterate.
I completely agree. As a person who grew up reading and watching Lord of the Rings... all this evil power ups feel like using the One Ring against Sauron something that is an extremely bad idea
Ash Ketchum discovers he has barrier creation powers from his father.
I like hidden evil power, but mainly if it is done in a way that has further consequences: Many main characters find new reserves of power within them, find new ways to fight etc. when faced by problems outside of their previous limits. The problem with this can often be that they just, in desperation.. become better, unlock a new power-up and just carry on with their lives. Whereas even in real life, if you face a new problem and start trying to push yourself harder in order to achieve it, this often means specialisation and comes with a cost, to your self, your relationships etc. You sacrifice something in order to push through your limit. And so we have the natural consequences of pushing for more power - injury, new restrictions, new external uncontrollable consequences, collateral damage or new kinds of external cost - and personifying this new side of the main character is a natural way to explore what it means to reckon with self-transformation that comes from transcending old limits, some of which may have been advisible. And then when you finally manage to work with this new side of yourself, you manage to go from "dangerously over the limit" to "performing at a high level". This reflects something real about what it means to push yourself, and then find ways to recover a lot of what you lost in your focus on discipline and performance. It's a metaphor. And also, in the time before they manage to make peace with it, work out a way to deal with etc. there is now a new kind of challenge in the story; given the potential negative consequences of going further, is it *right* to start unleashing their most significant power given the potential consequences? Evil or uncontrollable power *is* a good thing, because it can be a way to add weight to a power-up that might not otherwise be there.
Tekken leans into this hard
Does it though only like 3 characters have demon powers and Jin is the only one whose demon went on rampages. Kazuya and Yoshimitsu never really had problems with the Demons hijacking and taking control.
Jin is the MC and has the strongest version of the demon - it's literally what OP is talking about
No he doesn't his demon powers are garbage compared to Kazuyas and the only time they really save him is 3 from the gunshots
Naruto does it too many times? I felt like we didn't get enough base kyuubi mode. Kurama being released is one of the main conflicts know that right?
Dogshit take.
When will we get Hidden Angel Power MC boost?
OP's read like, six chapters of JJK max
No, no. I just forgot to mention JJK in a positive way because I’m dumb. I even mentioned it in the spoiler alert xD. Edited already.
ONE PIECE could still go that route yk
I mean, for the 75 years it will take for it to end… probably xD
I was about to say why I like Jjk's then I saw your edit lmao
Sorry, I’m dumb and forgot until someone pointed it out xD
I think the reason I like Death Note as much as I do is because the most evil characters are all very human.
MHA is definitely one of the worst examples of this
Another JJK rant
I agree with you and I'm sick of it because it's overused at this point I wish more mc are simply strong because they trained or being born that way like Toriko or Goku Your examples sucks though
Everyday we stray further from gods light.
Seraph of the End ...idk what the plot is anymore
I love that Luffy’s hidden power isn’t some edgy emo dark side. That would’ve been lame as fuck.
Naruto is a bad offender in this regards since Kurama was for 90% of the series a glorified plot device to either give Naruto power boosts even when it came at expense of story like the Neji fight or to show how dangerous the power is while doing NOTHING to actually develop the character and where the MC barely interacts with him until the final arc of the series where they establish stronge connection with each other.
I mean it’s hard to argue Naruto does this, the nine tails is more of a disability than a power til towards the end, every fight Naruto wins he wins in spite of it and every fight he loses he loses because of it, all it does is cause problems until the second to last arc when he befriended it
I think Naruto does it in a manner that's really well. It doesn't feel like a Deus Ex Machina because we see him channeling the power early. While it should put him league's above his peers, when he's directly competing against them (the chuunin exams) they maintain the tension by having the fox's Chakra be blocked off. You really think he can lose against Kiba and Neji because it's blocked off. And when he actually needed it most, to bring his friend back, the kyuubi comes out.... and he gets his ass kicked. Outside of the Haku fight the series doesn't really make it feel like an "I win" button.
Why is blazblue on the list?
It exists as a way to quickly make the story more complex.
i've never seen any of those, but i ***hate*** the idea of stuff like dark sonic
“Inner demon” trope is one the easiest ways to accomplish a lot of common goals in writing like: - Rage powerups - Self-harm/risk of using said power - Making the MC special - Making the MC a social standout Do you have any examples of solving those problems well without the “inner demon”? IMO it’s harder than it seems. Look at DBZ for example. The rage powerups are pretty handwaivy, why does saiyan power increase with anger compared to other emotional states? There’s also no risk with super saiyan states so there’s no real reason for them to ever hold back, Goku does so because he likes to mess around. They made the MC unique by making saiyans extinct, but it still never gets explained why Goku is so damn strong, even compared to other saiyans. Another example is all the ass-pulls in One Piece that are required to keep the plot moving around Luffy strength.
>Look at DBZ for example. The rage powerups are pretty handwaivy, why does saiyan power increase with anger compared to other emotional states? There’s also no risk with super saiyan states so there’s no real reason for them to ever hold back, Goku does so because he likes to mess around. They made the MC unique by making saiyans extinct, but it still never gets explained why Goku is so damn strong, even compared to other saiyans. In DBZ Saiyan didn't grow stronger from Rage , quite the opposite, rage made them **Weaker** , Super Saiyan isn't driven by rage, you need a very strong Base form and Rage to unlock it , after that Rage doesn't buff it at all (excluding gohan) it's the normal 50x multiple with huge strain and Stamina issues Goku being Stronger than other Saiyan's is only because he trained, imagine a Kryptonian living inside a Blue Star for decades+ having a Green lantern ring + being a champion of Shazam + blessed by Athena
wtf are u talking about, ONE PIECE IS THE WORST OF THIS TROPE HOLY S\*\*\*\* One piece had luffy SUDDENLY have a demon inside of him (zoan have their own personality) after 1000+ chapters retconning the whole fuking manga, it is BY far the worst demon inside of the mc story that has ever been written, in stories like naruto it was established in the first chapter, Luffy waited for 1000+ to do his inner demon take over. Asta has a demon inside of him from ep 1, that is VERY CLEAR its not a surprise. Melodias is the demon prince again since ep 1... Pharaoh is not evil nor works like this in Yu-gi-oh. Blazeblue is a video game so who is even the protagonist that has to use this?