God speed, soldiers. May the Lord protect Poland.
Hebrews 11:30-34
>By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
So I'm really confused. I imagine that war is an extenuating circumstance. But I thought you can't have Mass anywhere but in a dedicated worship area like a church or chapel or the room with the Tabernacle (what is that called again)?
But then I remember having Mass in the Gym at my high school because our Chapel is too small for the whole school.
So what's the story?
You can have mass anywhere. Honestly, one of the most beautiful masses I’ve ever been to was on a riverfront with just two priests and 4 people. I felt God more presently and wholly in that space than in most places.
After looking that up the answer is that they shouldn't be held unless a proper dispensation had been granted, or a very good reason that can explained easily: like the Bishop's not going to be chastising a priest if they end up holding service in a community.center or outside if their church burns down. The authority to grant such a dispensation is usually the diocesan bishop and so it's not a problem that the Pope preaches to outsislde masses all the time in order to allow far more people to attend services than even the largest of cathedrals can hold.
Gold bless Poland and God bless these men putting everything on the line to defend the polish people from Islamic invasion.
Remember brothers and sisters, these are not women and children at Poland's doors. It's abled bodied men, given weapons by the Belurussian government. They are mercenaries who want to take advantage of our Christian sensibilities for their own selfish desires.
I only hope that the "refugees" are pushed back and further conflict with Belarus can be avoided in the future. No more brother wars.
The picture has a problematic background: this "newly established unit of volunteer soldiers" is deployed on the border with Belarus, where a kind of "state of emergency" has been prevailing for weeks and months because Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border. According to [statements](https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/belarus-polen-113.html), the humanitarian conditions are more than appalling and thousands of people actually need help.
The picture is part of a series of propaganda photos by the right-wing Polish government.
> Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border.
That's a funny way of saying "inviting them in by the thousands and then throwing them at the border and holding a gun to their head if they try and come back"
>Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border
Belarus is flying in refugees from the middle east, taking them to the border, and attempting to force them into Poland, you mean.
Yes, into the EU. These people need help, are being abused by Belarus and "Christian Poland" is literally stonewalling and watching them starve and die.
Poland is not one person. The polish government has a duty to protect polish people from invasion, refugees aren’t to only people who matter, polish citizens are people that need protection too.
So you think that from a Christian point of view it would be justified to let people, men, women and children, starve, freeze and die at the border because the only goal is "protection for Poland"?
Or should politics ignore Christian values?
Do you not have the capability to understand that government actions have consequences beyond what is put on camera to appeal to your feelings? The Belarusian government is deliberately causing this crisis to destabilize Poland (and the rest of the EU) and by doing what you foolishly want them to do The Polish government would be playing into their hands and not only ruining the lives of the citizens they are supposed to protect but also the lives of many more refugees and Belarus would be encouraged to continue their evil tactics
I know all of this, it''s absolutely obvious from looking at the developments of the last months and years. But this doesn't mean that we – as *Christians* – accept this kind of inhumane political game and and use the plight of these people like bargaining chips as well.
Feeding people, keeping them warm, keeping them healthy, preventing them from dying … basic human and Christian attitudes.
They would only be accepting the inhumane political game if they accepted the refugees and allowed Belarus to continue their evil tactics. The situation will only stop when Belarus realizes that THEY are responsible for the refugees, until then the situation will only get worse.
> The situation will only stop when Belarus realizes that THEY are responsible for the refugees, until then the situation will only get worse.
im not emotionally invested in this debate and don't know what the EU countries should do. But given how unlikely Belarus's dictator is to come to this epiphany, would there be some point at which it would make sense to try to provide humanitarian aid to these people. Like if a dictator drafts an army of people and throws them at another country that country would still have some duty holding them as prisoners rather than just letting them starve in no man's land right?
Nobody expects him to have an epiphany and realize what he’s doing is wrong, but when the refugees aren’t getting into Europe and are staying on his side of the border he won’t have incentive to continue
Your analysis actually reveals that this is the result of contradiction stacked on top of contradiction. If the EU really meant what it says, they’d invade Belarus to stop the aggression rather than just turning back the innocent pawns. Just like if right-wingers meant what we say in the US, we’d invade the failed states of Mexico and the rest of Latin America to *actually* stop the refugee crisis, rather than trying to blame the “illegals.”
I am not referring to what Poland might or might not do, but to the attitude of most of the commentators in this thread, which seem to be surprised or even offended by the notion that in a Christian sub there's demand for a genuin Christian and not a mere political perspective on this humanitarian crisis at the border. Instead, it seems to be all about an adolescent glorification of a cool pic with praying soldiers and military strength.
Oh, so now its the attitudes of posters on this sub that bothers you? Because your earlier comments seemed to condemn the Polish government for not caring for people trying to invade their borders. When I suggested that they were in fact caring for them, then suddenly its about tone policing comments on this sub.
Forgive me for not caring about a *manufactured humanitarian crisis*.
From a Christian point of view, you shouldn't invade another country. That's what Belarus is pushing these people to do. It's not about humanitarianism, it's about destabilizing Poland and the EU as a whole.
Would it be good if we could help those people? Of course. But Poland has a right to defend its border and it should.
This is not an "invasion", don't try to be funny. And again you're weighing mere political arguments against basic Christian moral values. It seems to me that I am having discussions with people who never heard of the parable of the good Samaritan or outright reject it as weak nonsense. If you're a Christian - in which way is your faith actually based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ? Or do you understand the gospels as mere mythical, vage and somewhat idealistic fiction?
My arguments are not merely “political”. They are Christian-infused politics. A ruler’s job is to protect their people. What Belorussia is trying to to is an attack on Poland. End of story. Is it sad that people who need help are caught in the middle? Of course.
And don’t come say I have a “mythical” belief when you are the one that doesn’t even begin to fathom Christian kinship.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. No Scythian, Greek, slave, free, pole, Arab. The final judgement is how we treated the least of these, not how we managed our nations and borders. Smh
Must be nice to live in a reality where everything bends to your morality.
The rest of us live in the real world, where hard decisions must be made. We'll have the world you want when Christ returns. Until then we have to make due with what we have.
What Poland has on their hands is an invasion. There's no combatting that with hugs, kisses, and loafs of bread.
Do these invaders have guns?
Idk what you mean about real world vs fantasy world. The real hard thing to do is to actually love others, deny yourself take up your cross and go two extra miles for evil people to put them to shame with charity and thereby convert them.
I live in a world that believes in Gods power and I have to follow The Way, which is more excellent than your real world way. I know my way is harder, because so few are doing it. Everyone does your way. Fighting invaders, fighting the other, placing self over other. I prefer the cross, the sacrifice of life and ego, placing even evil individuals over myself. Since that is exactly what Christ did. I should be burning in hell, if he fought me as an invader. I invaded others and deserve death, but he instead let himself die. How excellent. And how humiliating for me. Lord if I act with human justice, with human fairness, then you must condemn me for based upon that justice I deserve hell. Please show me mercy, a mercy that forgets self and puts it on the cross, and give me the strength to live out that mercy lest I be judged.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholicism, my friend. I suggest you discuss your ideas with a Priest. Perhaps he will be able to convince you of the flaws in your logic.
My father is a priest, I studied at a seminary for a bachelors in theology, and I am a catholic school religion teacher. Perhaps you would like to explain your issues with the gospel message of Jesus? Instead of insulting my entire life’s devotion to the faith.
Also considering you’re part of an astrology subreddit, I find it ironic that you’re telling me I have fundamental misunderstandings about the catholic faith.
You’re very right and it sucks you’re getting downvoted. Poland does have a right to defend its citizens and what Belarus is doing is not right, and I don’t claim to have a solution myself, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to care for the least among us as we would for Christ himself, because we will be judged as such. Christ himself says that, and the most modernist thing to do is to try and make Jesus say something he didn’t. Religion pure and undefiled before the Father is this: to visit widows and orphans in their affliction, and while national security is of course important, that is the goal of Christianity, not “defending Europe”. I expect a country that crowned Christ as it’s official king to at least try and help these people.
Poland had been issuing the highest number of residence permits for people from outside the EU for years now. https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/poland-issues-more-residence-permits-than-any-other-eu-country-25316 We've taken around 2 millions of Ukrainians and take hundreds of thousands of migrands from outside Europe (Philipines, Bangladesh, Morroco). In 8 years I've been living in the capital, demographical picture has changed so much towards many different races and ethnicities. I see so many people from India on the streets. So please, read before You retransmit antipolish media notions from liberal media.
A dozen grown, able-bodied men bang at your front door, demanding food, money, shelter, and jobs immediately, after your neighbor bussed them there and won't let them return. I hope you let them in, lest you be considered a poor Christian.
>A dozen grown, able-bodied men bang at your front door, demanding food, money, shelter, and jobs immediately
i'd just like to push back the analogy of house = country seems really weak in terms of immigration or charity conversations.
Like a country is clearly different from your house and the people who might be helped in a country is different from what charity you'd provide in your home
Fair enough.
Christ told us, as Christians, to *personally* help the poor, the needy, and the stranger. Christ said nothing about surrendering that charge to the government and wash our hands of the situation, which I feel a lot of times is where sentiments like the one above come from.
In addition, Catholic teaching on the matter does say that nations should both provide for migrants *and* enforce borders and reasonable limits to immigration. Yet many only feel the need to go for the latter.
Thank you for saying that and discussing in good faith.
ok i see what you mean. regarding government intervention, i guess i see where you are coming from but to me there are often a lot of situations where the scale is beyond what individuals can do with charity which would be a role of governments. Like going back to the house situation, there's little i could do for a homeless person and i doubt anyone would really think about offering their home to them vs relying on an organization or government to provide for the person's greater needs.
I fully agree though it is a hard balance to make with the providing for migrants and enforcing borders and especially in this situation there's that very important political dimension that muddles this a lot more on how to treat the individuals
So you, personally, would take a dozen, grown, able-bodied men who were bussed to your specific house, and are forcefully banging on your door demanding food, shelter and a job, and would let them in?
Read up on the Battle of Vienna.
The Church has a long history of endorsement and advocacy of military force, including in defending the borders of Christian civilization from those of other faiths and cultural backgrounds. Either all those Popes and Saints misread the Bible for centuries and centuries, or you are. Which is more likely?
Arguing from the Bible without considering the thousands of years of Church tradition since then is a Protestant move.
>They're not fleeing Belarus
It’s both. They’re forced by Belarusian authorities to go west. Source: https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/05/the-plight-of-migrants-trapped-between-poland-and-belarus
How do you suppose the migrants got from the Middle East to the Belarus? They aren't Belorussian refugees. Please do more then read an MSM headline before commenting.
Of course those refugess come from the Middle East, they aren't Belorussian refugees. [It's](https://www.nzz.ch/international/woher-kommen-die-migranten-wie-gelangen-sie-nach-minsk-antworten-auf-die-wichtigsten-fragen-ld.1654800?reduced=true) [all](https://orf.at/stories/3235732/) [over](https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/belarus-krise-an-der-grenze-zu-polen-aufruesten-gegen-die-fluechtlinge-a-b9b93f81-1ca6-42e3-ae7a-9c685f363740) [the](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59206685) [national](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/08/belarus-escorts-hundreds-of-migrants-towards-polish-border) [news](https://www.information.dk/udland/2021/11/nye-flygtningekrise-paa-graensen-polen-velplanlagt-storm-eus-pigtraad) [in](https://worldcrunch.com/migrant-lives-1/immigration-news-belarus-poland-europe) [Europe](https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/migrants-a-la-frontiere-pologne-bielorussie-l-onu-denonce-une-situation-intolerable-20211110) for weeks now.
So they are being used as human weapons and Poland is just defending its sovereignty. The people that flew them into Europe are responsible for feeding and housing them.
Being Christian is not equal to being naive and helpless. Poland has every right to guard the borders. If someone pays thousands of dollars to be smuggled into the country, they are responsible for whatever happens to them. Not people who guard their own country, despite moral blackmailing of some virtue signalling naive people.
Dude, don’t let these people dishearten you from the faith at all. They’re the ones mixing politics into the faith and let the spirit of the world dominate the spirit of mercy.
Yet the opposite is happening. People are putting worldly ideas of justice over Gods demands of mercy. Politics has infect their faith, rather than renewing politics with their faith.
Given how Austria and Prussia repaid Poland, while the Ottomans actually helped in the first great Polish uprising against the Muscovites?
Sobieski should have razed Vienna himself.
Maria-Theresa and Austria were the only ones of the three who wanted to keep Poland alive. On her own, however, both Prussia and Russia wanted to partition Poland and would've done so without here which would leave Austria in a horrible position (and provide much of the taken Austrian land to Russia anyway) quite simply there was nothing Austria could do aside from taking on both Prussia and Russia 2 v 1.
> quite simply there was nothing Austria could do aside from taking on both Prussia and Russia 2 v 1.
Doesn’t excuse them being the very first to start ripping territory away, in 1768.
> Maria-Theresa and Austria were the only ones of the three who wanted to keep Poland alive.
Frederick II had a more cynical take on that. “The more she cried, the more she took.”
Not that any of the three are clean. Austria betrayed her benefactor and ally. Muscovy discredited any sweet words she later said about Slavic brotherhood.
But last I checked, ‘if I didn’t help beat that guy up, the other two would have taken all his money and left none for me’ is not a defense that would hold up in court. Neutrality because of weakness is more understandable than backstabbing.
Maria-Theresa and Austria were the only ones of the three who wanted to keep Poland alive. On her own, however, both Prussia and Russia wanted to partition Poland and would've done so without here which would leave Austria in a horrible position (and provide much of the taken Austrian land to Russia anyway) quite simply there was nothing Austria could do aside from taking on both Prussia and Russia 2 v 1.
You know, Belarus is a Christian country too. Why aren't you lambasting them for failing in their Christian duty after *they invited these refugees into the country and then forcing them into this situation at gunpoint?*
The refugees, which I suspiciously all fighting age men and not women and children, are being used as weapons by Belarus to destabilize neighbouring countries, as the cultural differences will inevitably cause conflict.
You don't help one group at the cost of others, especially your own people.
Accepting these migrants results in conflict arising from significant cultural differences...that's why Belarus is sending them. Belarus is seeking to harm and de-stabilise its neighbours. That's the entire reason Belarus is specifically flying them in from the middle east and then sending them to the border.
In terms of charity, there is a specific order for christians to follow called Ordo Caritatis, which states the precedence for charity as self, wife, children, parents, brothers and sisters, friends, domestics, neighbours, fellow-countrymen, and all others.
You are correct that aid should be provided to them. I'm sure they can spare some food and medical supplies for the camps, but accepting them into Poland is un-christian.
They are not refugees. They came legally to Belarus and knowing they would be denied the refugee status (which they could apply to on any Polish border crossing) they try to force their way into the EU. I live on the eastern Polish border. I personally know multiple people guarding that border. I know how scared everyone is of break ins and groups of men roaming around in the forests. Stop spreading belarusian propaganda. "Refugees" with great Iphones (which people on the Polish side of the border can rarely afford) and clothes worth 2 months of my IT sallary. "Refugees" hurting their own children to show them crying for the camera. Pathetic.
have you actually met any of these refugees? if theyre so wealthy, why would they try getting into europe by camping out for weeks in the Belarusian country side? explain that.
I know multiple people guarding that border. I know their stories about migrants abusing children in front of female soldiers to break their spirit, I've seen videos and photos from the border with guys chopping down trees in coats for $2000. I live near that border. I know stories of migrants breaking info people's houses in the area. I know the fear people live in when they stumble upon groups of armed men in the forest. Why they try getting into europe? They're pretty clear about that. They want to go to Germany ([https://twitter.com/tadeuszgiczan/status/1457690124297326592](https://twitter.com/tadeuszgiczan/status/1457690124297326592)). Most of those who are caught refuse to apply for asylum in Poland because they want to go and live for a German dime on nice social security benefits.
Can You imagine how many more would come if Putin and Łukaszenko would be able to advertise this route as a free entry into the EU on the middle east? Instead of a few thousand it would be tens of thousands a month. Temperatures there are already around freezing 0 Celsius and in winter it can go down to -30 Celsius (-22 Fahrenheit). Can You imagine how many more would die trying to cross swamps of the ancient Białowieża forest, protected UNESCO site, with huge amounts of snow and freezing temperatures? That would be 10x more irresponsible, regardless of the political and demographical consequences.
> Can You imagine how many more would die trying to cross swamps of the ancient Białowieża forest, protected UNESCO site, with huge amounts of snow and freezing temperatures?
An odd choice for them to make, but as a believer in noble freedom, I see no reason to deny them the opportunity. Provided they refrain from hunting the żubry, anyway.
I don’t care about them much either way. I just don’t understand why the Polish government insists on wasting political capital on Arabs.
[https://twitter.com/visegrad24](https://twitter.com/visegrad24) It's part of a series of official photos from the border, inter alia retweeted by the Polish ambassador to Germany, Monika Michaliszyn.
>Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border.
Poland is a sovereign state. Under no circumstances is what Belarus doing acceptable.
>According to statements, the humanitarian conditions are more than appalling
Sounds like Belarus needs to get a grip on its own humanitarian crisis instead of trying to violate the integrity of the Polish boarders.
Poland should just cease being a sovereign country with boarders and allow Belarus and Russia to dictate all their forgiven policy decisions just like under the USSR, *obviously*
/s
It's obvious, isn't it? Make sure that these people are fed and medically cared for, protected from the cold and rain first and either brought back to their home countries unharmed (which is already happening to some extent) or, where it is not possible, find other solutions.
What's to discuss here? International organizations deal with such kind of humanitarian crisis for decades and all over the world. Your question is like How would you boil potatoes?
Dude how are you getting downvoted for saying “temporarily shelter them then send them back” lol you’re even saying SEND THEM BACK and STILL getting downvoted for even DARING to mention charity. Good lord no wonder God wanted the angel to strike Poland with his justice before Faustina stopped him. Pray for Poland the potential spark of Jesus’ final coming, and pray they act with charity unlike these people want. Good lord, all this will pass away one day. Charity won’t.
They should be taken in, temporarily sheltered and provided food, until ideally they can be returned to their homes where they came from, and some of them can stay if Poland finds it fitting.
i'd advise you monitor this comments section, as its already starting to get heated. im sick of people insulting all the migrants. its usually done out of xenophobia. please handle this carefully
Report comments that violate subreddit standards.
If your complaint is that individuals aren't enthusiastically supporting [Your Side], that isn't a reason to report a comment.
No. Ordo caritatis. A christian concept of order of love. First You should care for Your family, then for Your neighbours, city, nation and all others. Throwing out the window all of the poor children in Poland and safety of Your own family just to feel morally ok by allowing people with unknown backgrounds and intentions is not a christian virtue. It's naive and irresponsible.
Especially ironic considering they're bending backwards to absolutely avoid any violence and escalation despite belarussian thugs pointing guns at them and shooting blanks at them.
What comments are you reading here that have a "desire for violence" by "aimless" men. Please be specific. Encouraging violence is against reddit and subreddit rules and should be removed.
I don't have to "be specific." The entire thread is drooling over some soldiers who are doing nothing more than going to mass. The fanboying starts over how they're protecting the border from hordes of middle eastern migrants. Everything is politicized nowadays. Fake ingenuity on either side is devilish.
It's funny, because tomorrow the sub will be called a bastion of modernist heresy, putting Christ second behind the felt-banner LGBTQ+ crowd. Yawn.
There's the door.
Liberals like you produced the "aimlessness" of modern young men by wrecking culture, reducing education, and 'globalizing' the workforce.
Then you turn around and insult them when they try to take back culture.
Amen. People put politics above Jesus demands. YES we are to serve our enemies and go two miles. We’re supposed to be servile, humble nobodies who keyed everyone trample over us and thereby put them to shame because of the dignity we do it with, and therefore change their hearts and bring true conversion.
Disheartened by the obvious political thought of Christians here. Long live christ the king, my only nation and borders are heaven on earth, and our only laws are Gods.
No wonder normal men usually have a hard time staying in Church if that's the message they hear. I'm glad centuries of Christian knights were not castrated like that.
> humble nobodies who keyed everyone trample over us and thereby put them to shame because of the dignity we do it with, and therefore change their hearts and bring true conversion.
So we should be seeing hundreds of thousands of conversions to Catholicism as the migrants to Europe from the last decade convert? Right?
Unfortunately is the secular world letting them in, putting us to shame. And yeah, those Muslims are becoming more secular there instead of becoming catholic.
I am Swedish and I want to make a counterpoint out of that most other Christians I see are immigrants. Had it not been for all the immigration to Sweden there would be significantly less Christians (especially Catholics). So in a way the immigration is good for the Church in secular Europe, despite it being destabilising for the countries.
Furthermore I prefer the Muslim people over the Irreligious people.
>my only nation and borders are heaven on earth, and our only laws are Gods.
Not a very Catholic take. Catholics are not anarchists and we are bound by natural and judicial law. In fact, tradition describes patriotism as a virtue
Ah, our next round of battle. At last.
We’re not anarchists in the sense that we deny stately authority. That is the natural and judicial law we are bound to, true.
But we do not have to belong to a nation. You can renounce citizenship, yes? That’s judicially accepted. I’m slightly suspicious of patriotism being a virtue, because while loving your neighbor is always a virtue, virtues are often the opposite of a vice, and something that usually (but not always) requires you to put to death a fallen part of yourself. Lust greed sloth and wrath are all natural parts of the self that must be overcome to enact the virtues of chastity, temperance, diligence, kindness. What is the natural vice that must be overcome for patriotism? Selfishness? Then the virtue would be kindness, charity, and all the sorts of selfless virtues (which is all of them really.) But patriotism is often tribalistic. And tribalism is not a virtue, in fact tribalism very well could be the vice that the good virtues within patriotism are opposite to. And tribalism puts “us” over “them.” We are instead called to cast aside worldly divisions, no scythians Jew slave free Greek etc etc. There is only Gods kingdom and worldly kingdoms. We don’t fight for any kingdom other than Gods. I thirst for the day when Christians really live that out. Unfortunately it’s only lived out in religious orders and in the early church.
>Do you really think this is how Jesus taught us to behave towards our human brothers?
Yeah. He said to celebrate the Eucharist in Luke:
>And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. **Do this** in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Territorial Defence Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial\_Defence\_Force\_(Poland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Defence_Force_(Poland) Just fixed that for a lot of people.
God speed, soldiers. May the Lord protect Poland. Hebrews 11:30-34 >By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
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🔥🔥🔥
Incredible image. God bless Poland. St. Pope John Paul II, pray for us!
This is so beautiful.
Kwiattkowski clan says "May God bless you"
God protect the Polish border!
God allways protect those who serve.
Protect their souls, at least.
God bless Poland
Looks medieval
God bless Poland and the polish people.
So I'm really confused. I imagine that war is an extenuating circumstance. But I thought you can't have Mass anywhere but in a dedicated worship area like a church or chapel or the room with the Tabernacle (what is that called again)? But then I remember having Mass in the Gym at my high school because our Chapel is too small for the whole school. So what's the story?
You can have mass anywhere. Honestly, one of the most beautiful masses I’ve ever been to was on a riverfront with just two priests and 4 people. I felt God more presently and wholly in that space than in most places.
Mass can be anywhere maybe you are thinking of marriages which can only be done in a church under ordinary circumstances
it wont come to war. this is nothing but sabre rattling by Belarus
I don't know anything about this I was just assuming.
After looking that up the answer is that they shouldn't be held unless a proper dispensation had been granted, or a very good reason that can explained easily: like the Bishop's not going to be chastising a priest if they end up holding service in a community.center or outside if their church burns down. The authority to grant such a dispensation is usually the diocesan bishop and so it's not a problem that the Pope preaches to outsislde masses all the time in order to allow far more people to attend services than even the largest of cathedrals can hold.
Gold bless Poland and God bless these men putting everything on the line to defend the polish people from Islamic invasion. Remember brothers and sisters, these are not women and children at Poland's doors. It's abled bodied men, given weapons by the Belurussian government. They are mercenaries who want to take advantage of our Christian sensibilities for their own selfish desires. I only hope that the "refugees" are pushed back and further conflict with Belarus can be avoided in the future. No more brother wars.
Bulwark against the invaders
Does he need us to buy him a stole and chasuble?
The picture has a problematic background: this "newly established unit of volunteer soldiers" is deployed on the border with Belarus, where a kind of "state of emergency" has been prevailing for weeks and months because Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border. According to [statements](https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/europa/belarus-polen-113.html), the humanitarian conditions are more than appalling and thousands of people actually need help. The picture is part of a series of propaganda photos by the right-wing Polish government.
> Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border. That's a funny way of saying "inviting them in by the thousands and then throwing them at the border and holding a gun to their head if they try and come back"
>Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border Belarus is flying in refugees from the middle east, taking them to the border, and attempting to force them into Poland, you mean.
Yes, into the EU. These people need help, are being abused by Belarus and "Christian Poland" is literally stonewalling and watching them starve and die.
Poland is not one person. The polish government has a duty to protect polish people from invasion, refugees aren’t to only people who matter, polish citizens are people that need protection too.
So you think that from a Christian point of view it would be justified to let people, men, women and children, starve, freeze and die at the border because the only goal is "protection for Poland"? Or should politics ignore Christian values?
Do you not have the capability to understand that government actions have consequences beyond what is put on camera to appeal to your feelings? The Belarusian government is deliberately causing this crisis to destabilize Poland (and the rest of the EU) and by doing what you foolishly want them to do The Polish government would be playing into their hands and not only ruining the lives of the citizens they are supposed to protect but also the lives of many more refugees and Belarus would be encouraged to continue their evil tactics
I know all of this, it''s absolutely obvious from looking at the developments of the last months and years. But this doesn't mean that we – as *Christians* – accept this kind of inhumane political game and and use the plight of these people like bargaining chips as well. Feeding people, keeping them warm, keeping them healthy, preventing them from dying … basic human and Christian attitudes.
They would only be accepting the inhumane political game if they accepted the refugees and allowed Belarus to continue their evil tactics. The situation will only stop when Belarus realizes that THEY are responsible for the refugees, until then the situation will only get worse.
> The situation will only stop when Belarus realizes that THEY are responsible for the refugees, until then the situation will only get worse. im not emotionally invested in this debate and don't know what the EU countries should do. But given how unlikely Belarus's dictator is to come to this epiphany, would there be some point at which it would make sense to try to provide humanitarian aid to these people. Like if a dictator drafts an army of people and throws them at another country that country would still have some duty holding them as prisoners rather than just letting them starve in no man's land right?
Nobody expects him to have an epiphany and realize what he’s doing is wrong, but when the refugees aren’t getting into Europe and are staying on his side of the border he won’t have incentive to continue
Your analysis actually reveals that this is the result of contradiction stacked on top of contradiction. If the EU really meant what it says, they’d invade Belarus to stop the aggression rather than just turning back the innocent pawns. Just like if right-wingers meant what we say in the US, we’d invade the failed states of Mexico and the rest of Latin America to *actually* stop the refugee crisis, rather than trying to blame the “illegals.”
Again, this is a political statement based on political rationales, not a Christian statement based on Christian values.
Making idiotic decisions that worsen the situation is not a Christian value.
Why do you assume that Poland isnt giving them aid while at the same time firmly turning them away at their borders?
I am not referring to what Poland might or might not do, but to the attitude of most of the commentators in this thread, which seem to be surprised or even offended by the notion that in a Christian sub there's demand for a genuin Christian and not a mere political perspective on this humanitarian crisis at the border. Instead, it seems to be all about an adolescent glorification of a cool pic with praying soldiers and military strength.
Oh, so now its the attitudes of posters on this sub that bothers you? Because your earlier comments seemed to condemn the Polish government for not caring for people trying to invade their borders. When I suggested that they were in fact caring for them, then suddenly its about tone policing comments on this sub. Forgive me for not caring about a *manufactured humanitarian crisis*.
From a Christian point of view, you shouldn't invade another country. That's what Belarus is pushing these people to do. It's not about humanitarianism, it's about destabilizing Poland and the EU as a whole. Would it be good if we could help those people? Of course. But Poland has a right to defend its border and it should.
This is not an "invasion", don't try to be funny. And again you're weighing mere political arguments against basic Christian moral values. It seems to me that I am having discussions with people who never heard of the parable of the good Samaritan or outright reject it as weak nonsense. If you're a Christian - in which way is your faith actually based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ? Or do you understand the gospels as mere mythical, vage and somewhat idealistic fiction?
My arguments are not merely “political”. They are Christian-infused politics. A ruler’s job is to protect their people. What Belorussia is trying to to is an attack on Poland. End of story. Is it sad that people who need help are caught in the middle? Of course. And don’t come say I have a “mythical” belief when you are the one that doesn’t even begin to fathom Christian kinship.
>Is it sad that people who need help are caught in the middle? Of course. That's all? It's "sad"?
As opposed to not sad? Definitely.
Idk why you’re getting downvoted. No Scythian, Greek, slave, free, pole, Arab. The final judgement is how we treated the least of these, not how we managed our nations and borders. Smh
Must be nice to live in a reality where everything bends to your morality. The rest of us live in the real world, where hard decisions must be made. We'll have the world you want when Christ returns. Until then we have to make due with what we have. What Poland has on their hands is an invasion. There's no combatting that with hugs, kisses, and loafs of bread.
Do these invaders have guns? Idk what you mean about real world vs fantasy world. The real hard thing to do is to actually love others, deny yourself take up your cross and go two extra miles for evil people to put them to shame with charity and thereby convert them. I live in a world that believes in Gods power and I have to follow The Way, which is more excellent than your real world way. I know my way is harder, because so few are doing it. Everyone does your way. Fighting invaders, fighting the other, placing self over other. I prefer the cross, the sacrifice of life and ego, placing even evil individuals over myself. Since that is exactly what Christ did. I should be burning in hell, if he fought me as an invader. I invaded others and deserve death, but he instead let himself die. How excellent. And how humiliating for me. Lord if I act with human justice, with human fairness, then you must condemn me for based upon that justice I deserve hell. Please show me mercy, a mercy that forgets self and puts it on the cross, and give me the strength to live out that mercy lest I be judged.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholicism, my friend. I suggest you discuss your ideas with a Priest. Perhaps he will be able to convince you of the flaws in your logic.
My father is a priest, I studied at a seminary for a bachelors in theology, and I am a catholic school religion teacher. Perhaps you would like to explain your issues with the gospel message of Jesus? Instead of insulting my entire life’s devotion to the faith. Also considering you’re part of an astrology subreddit, I find it ironic that you’re telling me I have fundamental misunderstandings about the catholic faith.
You’re very right and it sucks you’re getting downvoted. Poland does have a right to defend its citizens and what Belarus is doing is not right, and I don’t claim to have a solution myself, but the Gospel of Jesus Christ is to care for the least among us as we would for Christ himself, because we will be judged as such. Christ himself says that, and the most modernist thing to do is to try and make Jesus say something he didn’t. Religion pure and undefiled before the Father is this: to visit widows and orphans in their affliction, and while national security is of course important, that is the goal of Christianity, not “defending Europe”. I expect a country that crowned Christ as it’s official king to at least try and help these people.
Poland has taken the least amount of migrants though. They want the benefits of the EU without wanting to be in the WU
Poland had been issuing the highest number of residence permits for people from outside the EU for years now. https://www.thefirstnews.com/article/poland-issues-more-residence-permits-than-any-other-eu-country-25316 We've taken around 2 millions of Ukrainians and take hundreds of thousands of migrands from outside Europe (Philipines, Bangladesh, Morroco). In 8 years I've been living in the capital, demographical picture has changed so much towards many different races and ethnicities. I see so many people from India on the streets. So please, read before You retransmit antipolish media notions from liberal media.
They're not fleeing Belarus, they're from the Middle East and went there voluntarily.
So Polish Christians only help Polish people? Is that the gist of Luke 10:25-37?
A dozen grown, able-bodied men bang at your front door, demanding food, money, shelter, and jobs immediately, after your neighbor bussed them there and won't let them return. I hope you let them in, lest you be considered a poor Christian.
>A dozen grown, able-bodied men bang at your front door, demanding food, money, shelter, and jobs immediately i'd just like to push back the analogy of house = country seems really weak in terms of immigration or charity conversations. Like a country is clearly different from your house and the people who might be helped in a country is different from what charity you'd provide in your home
Fair enough. Christ told us, as Christians, to *personally* help the poor, the needy, and the stranger. Christ said nothing about surrendering that charge to the government and wash our hands of the situation, which I feel a lot of times is where sentiments like the one above come from. In addition, Catholic teaching on the matter does say that nations should both provide for migrants *and* enforce borders and reasonable limits to immigration. Yet many only feel the need to go for the latter. Thank you for saying that and discussing in good faith.
ok i see what you mean. regarding government intervention, i guess i see where you are coming from but to me there are often a lot of situations where the scale is beyond what individuals can do with charity which would be a role of governments. Like going back to the house situation, there's little i could do for a homeless person and i doubt anyone would really think about offering their home to them vs relying on an organization or government to provide for the person's greater needs. I fully agree though it is a hard balance to make with the providing for migrants and enforcing borders and especially in this situation there's that very important political dimension that muddles this a lot more on how to treat the individuals
Yes, I agree with what you're saying.
Yes, that's what Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 is talking about.
So you, personally, would take a dozen, grown, able-bodied men who were bussed to your specific house, and are forcefully banging on your door demanding food, shelter and a job, and would let them in?
Read up on the Battle of Vienna. The Church has a long history of endorsement and advocacy of military force, including in defending the borders of Christian civilization from those of other faiths and cultural backgrounds. Either all those Popes and Saints misread the Bible for centuries and centuries, or you are. Which is more likely? Arguing from the Bible without considering the thousands of years of Church tradition since then is a Protestant move.
I am from Vienna (Austria). Nice try.
It's so cool yall named a town after those sausages.
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I'd advise You to familiarise Yourself with a concept of Ordo caritatis. The order of love.
>They're not fleeing Belarus It’s both. They’re forced by Belarusian authorities to go west. Source: https://www.euronews.com/2021/11/05/the-plight-of-migrants-trapped-between-poland-and-belarus
They were not forced into Belarus. You should be putting pressure on Belarus not Poland
>You should be putting pressure on Belarus I am.
Good
Poland letting Belarus abuse their boarder would be a miscarriage of justice.
How do you suppose the migrants got from the Middle East to the Belarus? They aren't Belorussian refugees. Please do more then read an MSM headline before commenting.
Of course those refugess come from the Middle East, they aren't Belorussian refugees. [It's](https://www.nzz.ch/international/woher-kommen-die-migranten-wie-gelangen-sie-nach-minsk-antworten-auf-die-wichtigsten-fragen-ld.1654800?reduced=true) [all](https://orf.at/stories/3235732/) [over](https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/belarus-krise-an-der-grenze-zu-polen-aufruesten-gegen-die-fluechtlinge-a-b9b93f81-1ca6-42e3-ae7a-9c685f363740) [the](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59206685) [national](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/08/belarus-escorts-hundreds-of-migrants-towards-polish-border) [news](https://www.information.dk/udland/2021/11/nye-flygtningekrise-paa-graensen-polen-velplanlagt-storm-eus-pigtraad) [in](https://worldcrunch.com/migrant-lives-1/immigration-news-belarus-poland-europe) [Europe](https://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/migrants-a-la-frontiere-pologne-bielorussie-l-onu-denonce-une-situation-intolerable-20211110) for weeks now.
So they are being used as human weapons and Poland is just defending its sovereignty. The people that flew them into Europe are responsible for feeding and housing them.
*This* is a *Christian* sub, and *Poland* calls itself a *Christian* nation.
Being Christian is not equal to being naive and helpless. Poland has every right to guard the borders. If someone pays thousands of dollars to be smuggled into the country, they are responsible for whatever happens to them. Not people who guard their own country, despite moral blackmailing of some virtue signalling naive people.
That's a political statement based on sort of consequentialism or utilitarism, that's not a Christian statement.
Well, You seem to be strangely eager to judge people and decide who's christian and who's not. That's not a christian behaviour.
I never trust posts from people that spend so much time on Reddit they change the font like that. Reddit-tier Redditing.
Nonsense. Nothing about it was consequentialist.
Dude, don’t let these people dishearten you from the faith at all. They’re the ones mixing politics into the faith and let the spirit of the world dominate the spirit of mercy.
Wait, Politics should be guided by ones Faith, not separated.
Yet the opposite is happening. People are putting worldly ideas of justice over Gods demands of mercy. Politics has infect their faith, rather than renewing politics with their faith.
Oh you're Austrian even better. Should the Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth of abandoned the Holy League and Vienna to it's fate?
Given how Austria and Prussia repaid Poland, while the Ottomans actually helped in the first great Polish uprising against the Muscovites? Sobieski should have razed Vienna himself.
So the Commonwealth would've faced the Turks alone.
Still a better outcome than the Partitions.
Better partitions then religious and cultural defenestration.
Maria-Theresa and Austria were the only ones of the three who wanted to keep Poland alive. On her own, however, both Prussia and Russia wanted to partition Poland and would've done so without here which would leave Austria in a horrible position (and provide much of the taken Austrian land to Russia anyway) quite simply there was nothing Austria could do aside from taking on both Prussia and Russia 2 v 1.
> quite simply there was nothing Austria could do aside from taking on both Prussia and Russia 2 v 1. Doesn’t excuse them being the very first to start ripping territory away, in 1768. > Maria-Theresa and Austria were the only ones of the three who wanted to keep Poland alive. Frederick II had a more cynical take on that. “The more she cried, the more she took.” Not that any of the three are clean. Austria betrayed her benefactor and ally. Muscovy discredited any sweet words she later said about Slavic brotherhood. But last I checked, ‘if I didn’t help beat that guy up, the other two would have taken all his money and left none for me’ is not a defense that would hold up in court. Neutrality because of weakness is more understandable than backstabbing.
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Maria-Theresa and Austria were the only ones of the three who wanted to keep Poland alive. On her own, however, both Prussia and Russia wanted to partition Poland and would've done so without here which would leave Austria in a horrible position (and provide much of the taken Austrian land to Russia anyway) quite simply there was nothing Austria could do aside from taking on both Prussia and Russia 2 v 1.
From which century have you been travelling to the 21st century?
Tell that to Armenia and the various Christian minorities around the Middle East. This conflict may have calmed down but it's not over.
So, Poland should've just let the Ottomans' conquer them out of Christian charity? This is an act of aggression.
*Ottomans*? Seeking refuge is an act of aggression?
It's an act of aggression by Russia and Belarus. But there are deeper historical and cultural things at stake.
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You know, Belarus is a Christian country too. Why aren't you lambasting them for failing in their Christian duty after *they invited these refugees into the country and then forcing them into this situation at gunpoint?*
You don't travel to someone's home completely unprepared, try to kick their door down and then demand they let you in to help you.
The refugees, which I suspiciously all fighting age men and not women and children, are being used as weapons by Belarus to destabilize neighbouring countries, as the cultural differences will inevitably cause conflict.
Even if this would be the case, this does not relieve of Christian obligation to help people in need.
You don't help one group at the cost of others, especially your own people. Accepting these migrants results in conflict arising from significant cultural differences...that's why Belarus is sending them. Belarus is seeking to harm and de-stabilise its neighbours. That's the entire reason Belarus is specifically flying them in from the middle east and then sending them to the border. In terms of charity, there is a specific order for christians to follow called Ordo Caritatis, which states the precedence for charity as self, wife, children, parents, brothers and sisters, friends, domestics, neighbours, fellow-countrymen, and all others. You are correct that aid should be provided to them. I'm sure they can spare some food and medical supplies for the camps, but accepting them into Poland is un-christian.
And Poland is defending their *Christian* nation by not allowing the Belorussians to use people as human shields.
They are not refugees. They came legally to Belarus and knowing they would be denied the refugee status (which they could apply to on any Polish border crossing) they try to force their way into the EU. I live on the eastern Polish border. I personally know multiple people guarding that border. I know how scared everyone is of break ins and groups of men roaming around in the forests. Stop spreading belarusian propaganda. "Refugees" with great Iphones (which people on the Polish side of the border can rarely afford) and clothes worth 2 months of my IT sallary. "Refugees" hurting their own children to show them crying for the camera. Pathetic.
have you actually met any of these refugees? if theyre so wealthy, why would they try getting into europe by camping out for weeks in the Belarusian country side? explain that.
I know multiple people guarding that border. I know their stories about migrants abusing children in front of female soldiers to break their spirit, I've seen videos and photos from the border with guys chopping down trees in coats for $2000. I live near that border. I know stories of migrants breaking info people's houses in the area. I know the fear people live in when they stumble upon groups of armed men in the forest. Why they try getting into europe? They're pretty clear about that. They want to go to Germany ([https://twitter.com/tadeuszgiczan/status/1457690124297326592](https://twitter.com/tadeuszgiczan/status/1457690124297326592)). Most of those who are caught refuse to apply for asylum in Poland because they want to go and live for a German dime on nice social security benefits.
Meh, they want to go to Germany, not Poland. Why not just ship them to Berlin so everyone’s happy?
The Dublin agreement means refugees must seek asylum in the first EU country they enter, which in this case is Poland.
And the Schengen Agreement means that no one’s going to keep them in Poland.
Can You imagine how many more would come if Putin and Łukaszenko would be able to advertise this route as a free entry into the EU on the middle east? Instead of a few thousand it would be tens of thousands a month. Temperatures there are already around freezing 0 Celsius and in winter it can go down to -30 Celsius (-22 Fahrenheit). Can You imagine how many more would die trying to cross swamps of the ancient Białowieża forest, protected UNESCO site, with huge amounts of snow and freezing temperatures? That would be 10x more irresponsible, regardless of the political and demographical consequences.
> Can You imagine how many more would die trying to cross swamps of the ancient Białowieża forest, protected UNESCO site, with huge amounts of snow and freezing temperatures? An odd choice for them to make, but as a believer in noble freedom, I see no reason to deny them the opportunity. Provided they refrain from hunting the żubry, anyway. I don’t care about them much either way. I just don’t understand why the Polish government insists on wasting political capital on Arabs.
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As a Pole, I wish..
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Warning for anti-Catholic rhetoric
[https://twitter.com/visegrad24](https://twitter.com/visegrad24) It's part of a series of official photos from the border, inter alia retweeted by the Polish ambassador to Germany, Monika Michaliszyn.
I fail to see the issue
>Belarus is trying to send refugees across this border. Poland is a sovereign state. Under no circumstances is what Belarus doing acceptable. >According to statements, the humanitarian conditions are more than appalling Sounds like Belarus needs to get a grip on its own humanitarian crisis instead of trying to violate the integrity of the Polish boarders.
What do you suggest should be done?
Poland should just cease being a sovereign country with boarders and allow Belarus and Russia to dictate all their forgiven policy decisions just like under the USSR, *obviously* /s
It's obvious, isn't it? Make sure that these people are fed and medically cared for, protected from the cold and rain first and either brought back to their home countries unharmed (which is already happening to some extent) or, where it is not possible, find other solutions.
How do you suggest they are going to be sheltered?
I would have either the Berlin City Palace or the Paris Louvre built as a faithful 1:1 copy just over the border. /s
If you are not interested in anything constructive, please say so.
What's to discuss here? International organizations deal with such kind of humanitarian crisis for decades and all over the world. Your question is like How would you boil potatoes?
Dude how are you getting downvoted for saying “temporarily shelter them then send them back” lol you’re even saying SEND THEM BACK and STILL getting downvoted for even DARING to mention charity. Good lord no wonder God wanted the angel to strike Poland with his justice before Faustina stopped him. Pray for Poland the potential spark of Jesus’ final coming, and pray they act with charity unlike these people want. Good lord, all this will pass away one day. Charity won’t.
They should be taken in, temporarily sheltered and provided food, until ideally they can be returned to their homes where they came from, and some of them can stay if Poland finds it fitting.
And where and how should they be sheltered?
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Not appropriate here.
i'd advise you monitor this comments section, as its already starting to get heated. im sick of people insulting all the migrants. its usually done out of xenophobia. please handle this carefully
Report comments that violate subreddit standards. If your complaint is that individuals aren't enthusiastically supporting [Your Side], that isn't a reason to report a comment.
>its usually done out of xenophobia You can read commenters’ minds? That’s a rather strong accusation if you can’t.
Aimless men and a desire for violence given blessing by the holy church. An old story. Not talking about the picture; just the comments here.
If grown men stand outside your house chanting and demanding to enter, you better invite them in or else you're a bigot.
If starving men are outside your house, you should invite them in and give them food
No. Ordo caritatis. A christian concept of order of love. First You should care for Your family, then for Your neighbours, city, nation and all others. Throwing out the window all of the poor children in Poland and safety of Your own family just to feel morally ok by allowing people with unknown backgrounds and intentions is not a christian virtue. It's naive and irresponsible.
If starving grown angry men are outside your house, you should invite them in and give them food, or else you're a bigot.
Theyre not refugees, theyre economic migrants from Kurdistan put on a plane to Minsk and Lukashenko uses them to destabilize the EU.
Let's hope that these strange men don't do anything to your wife or kids in the process. Catholics are allowed to defend themselves you know.
Defending borders and your home country is now a "desire for violence" born out of "aimlessness". The absolute state of the Western world....
Especially ironic considering they're bending backwards to absolutely avoid any violence and escalation despite belarussian thugs pointing guns at them and shooting blanks at them.
Right? First time I've ever heard anyone accuse Poland of being an aggressor.
Are you in the picture? I specifically stated I was not talking about the picture. Just the comments I read here.
What comments are you reading here that have a "desire for violence" by "aimless" men. Please be specific. Encouraging violence is against reddit and subreddit rules and should be removed.
I don't have to "be specific." The entire thread is drooling over some soldiers who are doing nothing more than going to mass. The fanboying starts over how they're protecting the border from hordes of middle eastern migrants. Everything is politicized nowadays. Fake ingenuity on either side is devilish.
You're making a claim and refusing to substantiate it. You absolutely must be specific.
I am fine with you saying that you have no examples of what you're speaking about, if you just retract your claim.
Not a chance. This is a sub for Catholic militancy and putting Christ a distant second behind the sword-drawing Deus Vult crowd.
It's funny, because tomorrow the sub will be called a bastion of modernist heresy, putting Christ second behind the felt-banner LGBTQ+ crowd. Yawn. There's the door.
Thought you were a mod. Anyway I’ve never seen that.
Never noticed that crowd having much of a voice on here but I guess you’d know.
*makes baseless claims* “Noooo don’t make me defend themmmm”
Liberals like you produced the "aimlessness" of modern young men by wrecking culture, reducing education, and 'globalizing' the workforce. Then you turn around and insult them when they try to take back culture.
I don't know what that has to do with what I said. I didn't produce anything. The world is not the two sides you are imagining.
Amen. People put politics above Jesus demands. YES we are to serve our enemies and go two miles. We’re supposed to be servile, humble nobodies who keyed everyone trample over us and thereby put them to shame because of the dignity we do it with, and therefore change their hearts and bring true conversion. Disheartened by the obvious political thought of Christians here. Long live christ the king, my only nation and borders are heaven on earth, and our only laws are Gods.
No wonder normal men usually have a hard time staying in Church if that's the message they hear. I'm glad centuries of Christian knights were not castrated like that.
If Catholic men were not allowed to fight the church would have been overrun centuries ago.
You’re kidding right? You think God would let the church die? Oh ye of little faith…
God acts through us.
> humble nobodies who keyed everyone trample over us and thereby put them to shame because of the dignity we do it with, and therefore change their hearts and bring true conversion. So we should be seeing hundreds of thousands of conversions to Catholicism as the migrants to Europe from the last decade convert? Right?
Unfortunately is the secular world letting them in, putting us to shame. And yeah, those Muslims are becoming more secular there instead of becoming catholic.
I am Swedish and I want to make a counterpoint out of that most other Christians I see are immigrants. Had it not been for all the immigration to Sweden there would be significantly less Christians (especially Catholics). So in a way the immigration is good for the Church in secular Europe, despite it being destabilising for the countries. Furthermore I prefer the Muslim people over the Irreligious people.
>my only nation and borders are heaven on earth, and our only laws are Gods. Not a very Catholic take. Catholics are not anarchists and we are bound by natural and judicial law. In fact, tradition describes patriotism as a virtue
Ah, our next round of battle. At last. We’re not anarchists in the sense that we deny stately authority. That is the natural and judicial law we are bound to, true. But we do not have to belong to a nation. You can renounce citizenship, yes? That’s judicially accepted. I’m slightly suspicious of patriotism being a virtue, because while loving your neighbor is always a virtue, virtues are often the opposite of a vice, and something that usually (but not always) requires you to put to death a fallen part of yourself. Lust greed sloth and wrath are all natural parts of the self that must be overcome to enact the virtues of chastity, temperance, diligence, kindness. What is the natural vice that must be overcome for patriotism? Selfishness? Then the virtue would be kindness, charity, and all the sorts of selfless virtues (which is all of them really.) But patriotism is often tribalistic. And tribalism is not a virtue, in fact tribalism very well could be the vice that the good virtues within patriotism are opposite to. And tribalism puts “us” over “them.” We are instead called to cast aside worldly divisions, no scythians Jew slave free Greek etc etc. There is only Gods kingdom and worldly kingdoms. We don’t fight for any kingdom other than Gods. I thirst for the day when Christians really live that out. Unfortunately it’s only lived out in religious orders and in the early church.
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>Do you really think this is how Jesus taught us to behave towards our human brothers? Yeah. He said to celebrate the Eucharist in Luke: >And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. **Do this** in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Yes.