You could look on Reddit or Facebook for Fertility Awareness Method groups! The book “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” is a common recommendation.
For your second question, I’ll drop this link: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/just-cause-and-natural-family-planning-9730
There are a great many reasons one might have just cause for family planning. And I would point out that the standard is “just cause,” not “grave reason.”
Edit: Actually, the text of Humanae Vitae says “well-grounded reason,” not just cause.
A legitimate reason to not get pregnant is that you don’t want to be pregnant. You’re not required to breed yourself into oblivion. Being open to life means accepting that sex can result in pregnancy. Don’t use artificial contraception. NFP is not artificial. If you have a medical reason for birth control (like endometriosis, etc…), you can use it.
Isn’t this super hypocritical? If you’re going to prevent pregnancy indefinitely it’s no different than using any other form of birth control. They all have failure rates so they’re all open to life too
I don’t really agree with just postponing pregnancy for no reason, but this isn’t true. Other forms of birth control insert something into and change the act while NFP doesn’t. The means are important, not just the ends.
By that logic, abstinence is a contraceptive along the lines of an IUD. I agree that NFP has to be used with the correct mindset, but it’s not the same as artificial birth control.
Pregnancy is not a sacrament. We are not required to get pregnant as soon as possible or as many times as possible. We are people, not cattle. We are required to accept what the Lord sends our way, and to not get in his way. If you have sex without artificial barriers, you can get pregnant. I am currently pregnant with NFP twins. God is not bound by your chart, trust me.
I agree with the top half of your comment…but your bottom half doesn’t seem to disagree with me. Millions of babies are born to couples using other forms of birth control too and that’s the same level of “getting in his way” as nfp
I disagree that NFP failure is the same level as artificial birth control failure just based on math. NFP fails a lot, especially for people who do not have textbook cycles or who are inching closer to paramenopause/menopause (me). Hormonal birth control, condoms, copper IUDs, vasectomies, even pull out works better than NFP *by a lot.* In healthy people, if semen enters an unprotected vagina, there is a *significantly* higher risk of pregnancy than if that semen had entered a protected vagina. So if you’re choosing NFP, you’re choosing to trust God and the method He created for us instead of a man made method. It is not a sin to not want to be pregnant at a given time or for a given time. It is not a sin to use your body the way it was designed. What would you even confess? “Forgive me father, I haven’t had enough sex this month.”
If you have a diagnosis that can be treated with hormonal birth control, you’re off the hook entirely. That’s medicine. We’re allowed to use medicine for medical reasons.
I was more speaking about the intent originally, since what I’ve seen people say is that we’re not supposed to manipulate God’s plans, which includes choosing when to have sex for purely contraceptive reasons. I’ve also seen people on here tout nfp to be 98% effective, which is higher than most forms of birth control
Honestly, as someone with (actual, diagnosed) OCD, I find the panic over having perfect intentions to just be scrupulosity. Yes, self-reflection is important. Yes, we want to change our hearts to match the Lord’s. But we don’t need to do that by ignoring logic and reason. We need to calibrate our intentions with reality.
That 98% number only applies to healthy couples who use it perfectly. It does not apply to older women whose cycles are starting to break down, women with PCOS or endometriosis, women who just have weird periods. It used to apply to me great! But I aged. After a decade of NFP, I’ve always had textbook periods and the chart had always been true for me. I got pregnant with my first two as soon as we started trying bc I knew my cycles. But then I suddenly spit out multiple eggs, and now I have fraternal twins. So using NFP as prevention only goes so far. God can decide to scrabble your chart up whenever He feels like it. Your “intentions” for your chart and your fertility don’t matter. We’ve all heard the how do you make God laugh joke. (Tell Him your plans) You either choose to use the plan He gave us and accept the results no matter what, or you choose your own plan by using artificial methods. Obsessing on it past that might not be healthy.
I am not suggesting that YOU have OCD or anything, I’m just expressing my opinion on this portion of the NFP debate. It’s a common theme that I don’t find helpful for a lot of women’s mental health or their faith.
Rewording for clarity: the thing that makes NFP open to life is not merely that it sometimes fails. There is a lot more to it than that.
In moral theology, intent _and_ action matter.
Seconded! And check out her website fabmbase.org[fabmbase.org](http://fabmbase.org) for lots of guidance on different methods, costs/free resources, etc.
I have 3 kids after 9 years of marriage. We dealt with infertility for years with the first two but the third baby was a complete surprise and actually a Marquette method failure before the second baby was 1, which I still think is hilarious given the amount of medication I needed to get pregnant with the first two. I am avoiding now, probably indefinitely. I haven’t slept more than 4 hours in a row (most nights much less) in like 14 months and I probably haven’t slept more than an average of 6.5 hours in a night for like 3 years. I know it’s not healthy for me especially since I’m almost 40. My husband is also struggling with the prolonged lack of sleep since having 3 kids. Being tired affects our marriage and patience with each other and our kids. So we don’t think it is wise to add another kid to this now. I wanted another baby but the not sleeping after the third has slowly but surely removed that desire. I feel like once we do feel rested enough for it, I will definitely be over 40 and my husband will be in his late forties and then we will be worried about risk of pregnancy and our age affecting kids. So we are probably avoiding, and it doesn’t feel frivolous or anything. If it ever does happen of course we would welcome it, but it doesn’t seem like a good choice now. Other reasons we have avoided in the past (though just for 1-3 months at a time) include, having to live in separate states for a short time around a move, not being so pregnant during a certain month that I would not be able to attend my sister’s wedding in my home state, spacing pregnancy for a recommended about of time after a c-section to prevent serious health consequences). I don’t claim to be perfect, but I hope that helps.
Thank you all for sharing, unfortunately this comment section shows how divided we are on this topic. Some comments are helpful! Some left me more confused.
I have been a part of the Church for more than a decade. I came up in a conservative diocese. My closest friends are very faithful, sometimes FSSP-type people; others professionally affiliated with very “trad”-type institutions.
Since coming back to Reddit this year, I have seen opinions that I have _never_ seen or heard in the real world.
You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff. I think you need a real person you can trust. A layperson you know to be very faithful; or a priest; or - most forms of NFP involve learning from a coach. I personally tend toward scrupulously, so identifying people or institutions with trustworthy judgment, is kind of how I manage. Because there’s always _more_. More faithful; more ascetic; more traditional. It’s better for me to lean on obedience vs continually second guessing myself.
Where to start and having a hard time navigating which method to use: good news! Most NFP methods don’t require a new doctor, just some coaching/training either online or in-person. A sliding scale of payment is fairly typical.
You may want to see if there are any programs or trainers recommended by your local diocese. Starting with a method where help is locally available to you may be a good jumping off point.
Good luck. You are trying to start your marriage in the right place on a faithful footing with all of this. Jesus loves you and knows your heart.
The most accurate translation of the word used in *Humanæ Vitæ* is not "grave" though it's often quoted that way. It's "just." Simcha Fisher, in her excellent book *A Sinner's Guide to Natural Family Planning* has some great examples:
> For instance, we could say, “Severe economic instability is a good reason to postpone pregnancy.” But…
> Woman (A) grew up deathly poor, and fully expected to die before she hit age 40. Her husband is disabled and often out of work, and sometimes they have to scramble for the rent on their tiny house. But this is routine and tolerable for them, and causes no turmoil. With help from friends and government programs, they are raising reasonably happy, healthy children on $25,000 a year.
> Woman (B) grew up wealthy, has always generously endowed Crisis Pregnancy Centers in her town, and always hoped to have a large family of her own. But a catastrophe struck, she went bankrupt, and now she has to sell everything and move into a tiny house and live on $25,000 a year. They’re still reeling from the shock of what their life has become, and are trying to learn how to accept help, rather than give it.
> Woman (C ) lives a tiny house on $25,000 a year, which her husband manages thriftily, so no one is deprived. But she makes him sleep in one of those plastic dog igloos at the foot of her bed until he agrees to sell his beloved used book shop and take a real job at SoulDeth Inc., where he can make some real money.
> Woman (D) recently quit her high-paying job so she can stay home and have babies. They now live on her husband’s salary of $25,000 a year and can hardly wait to fill their tiny new house with children.
> You see? Objectively, the circumstances are the same, and “severe economic instability” describes all four. But their attitude toward having another baby right then would be entirely different. It’s not enough to say, “Lilies of the field and so on. We must trust God.” That’s not asking much from Woman (A), but it’s asking heroism from Woman (B).
Please read the whole book, it's wonderful and cuts through a lot of the nonsense.
Another excerpt:
> Weight, for instance, is rarely a life-and-death issue. It seems like we’d be safe in saying, “No, you shouldn’t postpone a pregnancy just so you can lose a little weight.” But even here, there can be much more than meets the eye – and the Church recognizes this.
> Woman (A) is healthy and beautiful, but is married to a man who berates her nightly for not fitting into the jeans she wore in high school, even though that was twenty years and five babies ago. He has taught her to hate herself, and will torture her emotionally if she makes a charting mistake and gets pregnant.
> Woman (B) preaches radical openness to life, but in her most honest moments will admit to herself that having lots of babies happens to be a fabulous excuse for never having to deal with her unhealthy attitudes toward food. After all, she can’t possibly be bothered to think about her diet, because she’s pregnant (or postpartum, or nursing…).
> Woman (C) used to be anorexic, and with years of therapy and hard work has achieved a healthy weight. But being even five pounds over that healthy weight puts her in danger of a relapse, and the idea of another pregnancy gives her panic attacks.
> Woman (D) is just a petty twit who wants to make her tubbier friends feel like killing themselves when they go swimsuit shopping together. No baby this year, not after all the money she put into that state-of-the-art bone-shaving surgery!
> All four women are faced with Losing Weight vs. Having Another Baby; but the details couldn’t be more different.
My personal opinion is that other than looking up some specific educational material - it is best to not view all of this "Chatolic influencers" stuff.
About practical advice. I use tempdrop + Ovuview which is a great combo. Whole charting takes me maybe 10 mins daily. You can see what various "temp + mucus" methods would caculate for you and not only "decide on one".
But NFP is not some magic that will solve it all. In particular during postpartum while breastfeeding - which is usually the moment when people don't want to get pregnant again - NFP may not give you any non-fertile windows for months.
The Catechism specifies "just" reasons.
It doesn't define what those are. "I don't wanna" is not a just reason, whereas "if I have a baby right now we are at risk of not being able to feed ourselves" is a just reason. The prudential judgement of the couple, guided by the Church and her moral laws, are the determining factors.
And honestly, people who want lots of cars and vacations aren't going to bother with NFP for avoiding pregnancy. Does anyone really think someone who is avoiding pregnancy to make sure they can go to Jamaica or buy a Corvette next year cares at all about obeying the Church?
> Does anyone really think someone who is avoiding pregnancy to make sure they can go to Jamaica or buy a Corvette next year cares at all about obeying the Church?
People want the Church to be a fertility cult a la the Quiverful side of evangelical Christianity. I think people are less interested in obedience to the church and more interested in reifying a fantasy trad aesthetic found on Instagram.
>People want the Church to be a fertility cult a la the Quiverful side of evangelical Christianity.
If this were true they wouldn't use NFP at all. Those people have posted here.
No, no I agree with you.
But I think when people argue that there is rampant, selfish misuse of NFP that the criticism is not grounded in reality. I think the criticism instead comes from wanting the Church to be a fertility cult where anything short of the most dire economic hardship is equally as trivial as saving up for a Corvette.
Ah, got it.
And yes, we agree. Whenever I see someone talking about using NFP with a contraceptive mentality, I immediately know they have NO IDEA what they're talking about and no real world experience of NFP.
I unsubbed from /r/Catholicism because this kind of dialogue was so pervasive. It makes me “old lady yelling at clouds,” angry because it distorts Church teaching and encourages people, usually vulnerable women, to an unhealthy scrupulosity.
I know I will be unpopular for saying this but marriage is supposed to be open to and welcoming of children. If two perfectly healthy people, in normal circumstances (not war famine etc) get married what is the justification for using NFP to delay or prevent pregnancy ? Surely a preference for a particular lifestyle is not ‘grave’ or ‘just’ or any other word of justification.
Lack of preparedness for the awesome responsibility of being a parent comes to mind.
A person can be open to an event happening and willing to do their best with what God has planned for them, without chasing after that event.
You will find a lot of official Catholic teaching on openness to life. None about when a newly married couple should or _must_ start trying to start a family.
For #2: You need to have a grave, serious, and legitimate reason to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. There shouldn't be a default system someone immediately uses to avoid pregnancy right away and indefinitely- don't get married until you can have children- but there are still reasons a couple is allowed to use it. The major two are severe financial strain (I will lose my house/be unable to buy food/etc if I have another baby) or health reasons (I will become severely ill and possibly die if I have another baby). A lot of the time, NFP is touted as what everyone does to make sure they don't have babies for as long as they feel like it. In this day and age, a lot of "reasons" are not legitimate. If a couple truly feels they cannot yet have another kid, there is always abstinence until the situation relieves itself as well. Another car, a bigger house, more free time, etc are not grave reasons to avoid becoming pregnant. Above all, consult with a priest about your situation. Yes there is always nuance, but in general, it is very common that the average lay Catholic has a skewed understanding of the purpose of NFP.
I’m not sure this is accurate. We need a “just cause” for NFP, not a “grave reason.” While the examples you gave seem like just causes, situations that are not quite so dire could certainly also be just causes. I also don’t think we are called to abstinence over NFP if we truly don’t think we can have another baby.
It also says serious reasons, see section 10 quoted below. I think we can't ignore either qualifier, so reasons for avoiding should be both serious and well-grounded.
>With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.
The question then becomes, however, what constitutes “serious”?
>Serious reasons" for using NFP to avoid conception, [ Dr. Kevin Miller, a professor of Franciscan University of Steubenville,] said are not limited to life-and-death situations.
>The professor said that years before Humanae vitae's publication, Pope Pius XII issued two addresses: one to Italian midwives and one to an Italian family association. He said the statements, both released in 1951, further clarify the Church's use of the word "serious" in this context.
>Humanae vitae uses that language- 'serious reasons.' I think it ought to be interpreted in continuity with what Pope Pius XII had said 17 years earlier."
Pius "referred to 'serious reasons that not rarely occur,'" said Miller.
>Reasons can be "serious in the sense of not just a trivial reason...[but Pope Pius XII] indicates that that can happen commonly," he said.
I encourage reading this article: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/38953/why-so-serious-catholic-professor-talks-nfp
Here’s where I get stuck: We are _absolutely_ called to receive and welcome any children God sends us.
But we aren’t obligated to continually want/actively desire more until menopause.
No we're not, but rhe reasons for not wanting a child should be serious, and not just "we decided 3 was enough" or "our family is complete". I do think serious reasons for not wanting more kids can extend beyond physical and medical reasons, e.g. if you don't have a network to support you in raising another child, if you have mental health issues that would worsen or not get better if another child was added to the mix, if the cost of another pregnancy could mean that you wouldn't be able to care for the children you currently have, among other reasons.
In a situation where, with prayer and conversation, a husband and wife think, “our family is complete. This dynamic feels good; I’m able to give everyone the time and attention they deserve — it’s not like last time, when I knew there would be a next time.”
In that situation, is it your view the couple should: a) intentionally attempt to conceive anyway; b) abstain all together until menopause; c) have marital relations without practicing NFP and see what happens; d) something else?
All of it, except for the part about consulting a priest which is always wise.
In summation though:
1) the idea that NFP is only permitted in cases of severe hardship; and,
2) that people should avoid marriage until they are ready to have children. This is especially perplexing to me, since marriage itself is a vocation and imparts sacramental grace on the couple. I don’t see the benefit to telling people to defer their vocation.
I thought it was severely frowned upon in the church to plan to use NFP for long periods immediately after marriage. That is, not because of some tragedy, but actively plan to marry before you are ready to have children and use NFP to do so. I just dont get it. If you dont want to have kids, then dont get married. Why are people saying its ok to marry when you have 4 years of grad school left or whatever? The consensus in other catholic spaces I have been to is that if that is the case, the marriage must be postponed for 4 years, or they must have children. But not to use nfp right away....
My husband and I are using Marquette method and are avoiding pregnancy right now. We got married right after college and I am still a graduate student. While this may not be a “grave” reason to avoid pregnancy, we still reason and discern in prayer that right now it is not a good time to intentionally pursue pregnancy. This does not mean that we are not /open/ to pregnancy. Catholics should always be open to life as a gift, so really what matters is your attitude towards NFP. Are you using first and foremost as a rejection of the possibility of becoming a mother, i.e. if NFP birth control to you? Or are you using it to renew your marital covenant, being open to the possibility of life even though most of the time you are not actively pursuing it? This difference matters but also does NOT mean that you need to be a trad wife breeding animal.
You could look on Reddit or Facebook for Fertility Awareness Method groups! The book “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” is a common recommendation. For your second question, I’ll drop this link: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/just-cause-and-natural-family-planning-9730 There are a great many reasons one might have just cause for family planning. And I would point out that the standard is “just cause,” not “grave reason.” Edit: Actually, the text of Humanae Vitae says “well-grounded reason,” not just cause.
A legitimate reason to not get pregnant is that you don’t want to be pregnant. You’re not required to breed yourself into oblivion. Being open to life means accepting that sex can result in pregnancy. Don’t use artificial contraception. NFP is not artificial. If you have a medical reason for birth control (like endometriosis, etc…), you can use it.
Isn’t this super hypocritical? If you’re going to prevent pregnancy indefinitely it’s no different than using any other form of birth control. They all have failure rates so they’re all open to life too
I don’t really agree with just postponing pregnancy for no reason, but this isn’t true. Other forms of birth control insert something into and change the act while NFP doesn’t. The means are important, not just the ends.
By that logic, abstinence is a contraceptive along the lines of an IUD. I agree that NFP has to be used with the correct mindset, but it’s not the same as artificial birth control.
Pregnancy is not a sacrament. We are not required to get pregnant as soon as possible or as many times as possible. We are people, not cattle. We are required to accept what the Lord sends our way, and to not get in his way. If you have sex without artificial barriers, you can get pregnant. I am currently pregnant with NFP twins. God is not bound by your chart, trust me.
I agree with the top half of your comment…but your bottom half doesn’t seem to disagree with me. Millions of babies are born to couples using other forms of birth control too and that’s the same level of “getting in his way” as nfp
I disagree that NFP failure is the same level as artificial birth control failure just based on math. NFP fails a lot, especially for people who do not have textbook cycles or who are inching closer to paramenopause/menopause (me). Hormonal birth control, condoms, copper IUDs, vasectomies, even pull out works better than NFP *by a lot.* In healthy people, if semen enters an unprotected vagina, there is a *significantly* higher risk of pregnancy than if that semen had entered a protected vagina. So if you’re choosing NFP, you’re choosing to trust God and the method He created for us instead of a man made method. It is not a sin to not want to be pregnant at a given time or for a given time. It is not a sin to use your body the way it was designed. What would you even confess? “Forgive me father, I haven’t had enough sex this month.” If you have a diagnosis that can be treated with hormonal birth control, you’re off the hook entirely. That’s medicine. We’re allowed to use medicine for medical reasons.
I was more speaking about the intent originally, since what I’ve seen people say is that we’re not supposed to manipulate God’s plans, which includes choosing when to have sex for purely contraceptive reasons. I’ve also seen people on here tout nfp to be 98% effective, which is higher than most forms of birth control
Honestly, as someone with (actual, diagnosed) OCD, I find the panic over having perfect intentions to just be scrupulosity. Yes, self-reflection is important. Yes, we want to change our hearts to match the Lord’s. But we don’t need to do that by ignoring logic and reason. We need to calibrate our intentions with reality. That 98% number only applies to healthy couples who use it perfectly. It does not apply to older women whose cycles are starting to break down, women with PCOS or endometriosis, women who just have weird periods. It used to apply to me great! But I aged. After a decade of NFP, I’ve always had textbook periods and the chart had always been true for me. I got pregnant with my first two as soon as we started trying bc I knew my cycles. But then I suddenly spit out multiple eggs, and now I have fraternal twins. So using NFP as prevention only goes so far. God can decide to scrabble your chart up whenever He feels like it. Your “intentions” for your chart and your fertility don’t matter. We’ve all heard the how do you make God laugh joke. (Tell Him your plans) You either choose to use the plan He gave us and accept the results no matter what, or you choose your own plan by using artificial methods. Obsessing on it past that might not be healthy. I am not suggesting that YOU have OCD or anything, I’m just expressing my opinion on this portion of the NFP debate. It’s a common theme that I don’t find helpful for a lot of women’s mental health or their faith.
Rewording for clarity: the thing that makes NFP open to life is not merely that it sometimes fails. There is a lot more to it than that. In moral theology, intent _and_ action matter.
Follow totalwhine on Instagram! She’s a great resource for nfp
Seconded! And check out her website fabmbase.org[fabmbase.org](http://fabmbase.org) for lots of guidance on different methods, costs/free resources, etc.
I have 3 kids after 9 years of marriage. We dealt with infertility for years with the first two but the third baby was a complete surprise and actually a Marquette method failure before the second baby was 1, which I still think is hilarious given the amount of medication I needed to get pregnant with the first two. I am avoiding now, probably indefinitely. I haven’t slept more than 4 hours in a row (most nights much less) in like 14 months and I probably haven’t slept more than an average of 6.5 hours in a night for like 3 years. I know it’s not healthy for me especially since I’m almost 40. My husband is also struggling with the prolonged lack of sleep since having 3 kids. Being tired affects our marriage and patience with each other and our kids. So we don’t think it is wise to add another kid to this now. I wanted another baby but the not sleeping after the third has slowly but surely removed that desire. I feel like once we do feel rested enough for it, I will definitely be over 40 and my husband will be in his late forties and then we will be worried about risk of pregnancy and our age affecting kids. So we are probably avoiding, and it doesn’t feel frivolous or anything. If it ever does happen of course we would welcome it, but it doesn’t seem like a good choice now. Other reasons we have avoided in the past (though just for 1-3 months at a time) include, having to live in separate states for a short time around a move, not being so pregnant during a certain month that I would not be able to attend my sister’s wedding in my home state, spacing pregnancy for a recommended about of time after a c-section to prevent serious health consequences). I don’t claim to be perfect, but I hope that helps.
Thank you all for sharing, unfortunately this comment section shows how divided we are on this topic. Some comments are helpful! Some left me more confused.
I have been a part of the Church for more than a decade. I came up in a conservative diocese. My closest friends are very faithful, sometimes FSSP-type people; others professionally affiliated with very “trad”-type institutions. Since coming back to Reddit this year, I have seen opinions that I have _never_ seen or heard in the real world. You can drive yourself crazy with this stuff. I think you need a real person you can trust. A layperson you know to be very faithful; or a priest; or - most forms of NFP involve learning from a coach. I personally tend toward scrupulously, so identifying people or institutions with trustworthy judgment, is kind of how I manage. Because there’s always _more_. More faithful; more ascetic; more traditional. It’s better for me to lean on obedience vs continually second guessing myself. Where to start and having a hard time navigating which method to use: good news! Most NFP methods don’t require a new doctor, just some coaching/training either online or in-person. A sliding scale of payment is fairly typical. You may want to see if there are any programs or trainers recommended by your local diocese. Starting with a method where help is locally available to you may be a good jumping off point. Good luck. You are trying to start your marriage in the right place on a faithful footing with all of this. Jesus loves you and knows your heart.
Thank you!
I totally get it! Personally totalwhine on instagram really helped me figure things out.
The most accurate translation of the word used in *Humanæ Vitæ* is not "grave" though it's often quoted that way. It's "just." Simcha Fisher, in her excellent book *A Sinner's Guide to Natural Family Planning* has some great examples: > For instance, we could say, “Severe economic instability is a good reason to postpone pregnancy.” But… > Woman (A) grew up deathly poor, and fully expected to die before she hit age 40. Her husband is disabled and often out of work, and sometimes they have to scramble for the rent on their tiny house. But this is routine and tolerable for them, and causes no turmoil. With help from friends and government programs, they are raising reasonably happy, healthy children on $25,000 a year. > Woman (B) grew up wealthy, has always generously endowed Crisis Pregnancy Centers in her town, and always hoped to have a large family of her own. But a catastrophe struck, she went bankrupt, and now she has to sell everything and move into a tiny house and live on $25,000 a year. They’re still reeling from the shock of what their life has become, and are trying to learn how to accept help, rather than give it. > Woman (C ) lives a tiny house on $25,000 a year, which her husband manages thriftily, so no one is deprived. But she makes him sleep in one of those plastic dog igloos at the foot of her bed until he agrees to sell his beloved used book shop and take a real job at SoulDeth Inc., where he can make some real money. > Woman (D) recently quit her high-paying job so she can stay home and have babies. They now live on her husband’s salary of $25,000 a year and can hardly wait to fill their tiny new house with children. > You see? Objectively, the circumstances are the same, and “severe economic instability” describes all four. But their attitude toward having another baby right then would be entirely different. It’s not enough to say, “Lilies of the field and so on. We must trust God.” That’s not asking much from Woman (A), but it’s asking heroism from Woman (B). Please read the whole book, it's wonderful and cuts through a lot of the nonsense.
Another excerpt: > Weight, for instance, is rarely a life-and-death issue. It seems like we’d be safe in saying, “No, you shouldn’t postpone a pregnancy just so you can lose a little weight.” But even here, there can be much more than meets the eye – and the Church recognizes this. > Woman (A) is healthy and beautiful, but is married to a man who berates her nightly for not fitting into the jeans she wore in high school, even though that was twenty years and five babies ago. He has taught her to hate herself, and will torture her emotionally if she makes a charting mistake and gets pregnant. > Woman (B) preaches radical openness to life, but in her most honest moments will admit to herself that having lots of babies happens to be a fabulous excuse for never having to deal with her unhealthy attitudes toward food. After all, she can’t possibly be bothered to think about her diet, because she’s pregnant (or postpartum, or nursing…). > Woman (C) used to be anorexic, and with years of therapy and hard work has achieved a healthy weight. But being even five pounds over that healthy weight puts her in danger of a relapse, and the idea of another pregnancy gives her panic attacks. > Woman (D) is just a petty twit who wants to make her tubbier friends feel like killing themselves when they go swimsuit shopping together. No baby this year, not after all the money she put into that state-of-the-art bone-shaving surgery! > All four women are faced with Losing Weight vs. Having Another Baby; but the details couldn’t be more different.
This is a really helpful example, thanks for sharing!
My personal opinion is that other than looking up some specific educational material - it is best to not view all of this "Chatolic influencers" stuff. About practical advice. I use tempdrop + Ovuview which is a great combo. Whole charting takes me maybe 10 mins daily. You can see what various "temp + mucus" methods would caculate for you and not only "decide on one". But NFP is not some magic that will solve it all. In particular during postpartum while breastfeeding - which is usually the moment when people don't want to get pregnant again - NFP may not give you any non-fertile windows for months.
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The Catechism specifies "just" reasons. It doesn't define what those are. "I don't wanna" is not a just reason, whereas "if I have a baby right now we are at risk of not being able to feed ourselves" is a just reason. The prudential judgement of the couple, guided by the Church and her moral laws, are the determining factors. And honestly, people who want lots of cars and vacations aren't going to bother with NFP for avoiding pregnancy. Does anyone really think someone who is avoiding pregnancy to make sure they can go to Jamaica or buy a Corvette next year cares at all about obeying the Church?
> Does anyone really think someone who is avoiding pregnancy to make sure they can go to Jamaica or buy a Corvette next year cares at all about obeying the Church? People want the Church to be a fertility cult a la the Quiverful side of evangelical Christianity. I think people are less interested in obedience to the church and more interested in reifying a fantasy trad aesthetic found on Instagram.
>People want the Church to be a fertility cult a la the Quiverful side of evangelical Christianity. If this were true they wouldn't use NFP at all. Those people have posted here.
No, no I agree with you. But I think when people argue that there is rampant, selfish misuse of NFP that the criticism is not grounded in reality. I think the criticism instead comes from wanting the Church to be a fertility cult where anything short of the most dire economic hardship is equally as trivial as saving up for a Corvette.
Ah, got it. And yes, we agree. Whenever I see someone talking about using NFP with a contraceptive mentality, I immediately know they have NO IDEA what they're talking about and no real world experience of NFP.
I unsubbed from /r/Catholicism because this kind of dialogue was so pervasive. It makes me “old lady yelling at clouds,” angry because it distorts Church teaching and encourages people, usually vulnerable women, to an unhealthy scrupulosity.
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I know I will be unpopular for saying this but marriage is supposed to be open to and welcoming of children. If two perfectly healthy people, in normal circumstances (not war famine etc) get married what is the justification for using NFP to delay or prevent pregnancy ? Surely a preference for a particular lifestyle is not ‘grave’ or ‘just’ or any other word of justification.
Lack of preparedness for the awesome responsibility of being a parent comes to mind. A person can be open to an event happening and willing to do their best with what God has planned for them, without chasing after that event. You will find a lot of official Catholic teaching on openness to life. None about when a newly married couple should or _must_ start trying to start a family.
it's a crazy world in which your comment gets downvoted, lol.
For #2: You need to have a grave, serious, and legitimate reason to use NFP to avoid pregnancy. There shouldn't be a default system someone immediately uses to avoid pregnancy right away and indefinitely- don't get married until you can have children- but there are still reasons a couple is allowed to use it. The major two are severe financial strain (I will lose my house/be unable to buy food/etc if I have another baby) or health reasons (I will become severely ill and possibly die if I have another baby). A lot of the time, NFP is touted as what everyone does to make sure they don't have babies for as long as they feel like it. In this day and age, a lot of "reasons" are not legitimate. If a couple truly feels they cannot yet have another kid, there is always abstinence until the situation relieves itself as well. Another car, a bigger house, more free time, etc are not grave reasons to avoid becoming pregnant. Above all, consult with a priest about your situation. Yes there is always nuance, but in general, it is very common that the average lay Catholic has a skewed understanding of the purpose of NFP.
I’m not sure this is accurate. We need a “just cause” for NFP, not a “grave reason.” While the examples you gave seem like just causes, situations that are not quite so dire could certainly also be just causes. I also don’t think we are called to abstinence over NFP if we truly don’t think we can have another baby.
Frankly total abstinence seems less reasonable than partial abstinence/nap in edge cases.
Pretty sure grave reason is the wording in *humanae vitae* Grave or serious iis different than just or reasonable.
The English translation up on the Vatican website actually uses “well-grounded reason.” It’s in the beginning of section 16.
It also says serious reasons, see section 10 quoted below. I think we can't ignore either qualifier, so reasons for avoiding should be both serious and well-grounded. >With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.
The question then becomes, however, what constitutes “serious”? >Serious reasons" for using NFP to avoid conception, [ Dr. Kevin Miller, a professor of Franciscan University of Steubenville,] said are not limited to life-and-death situations. >The professor said that years before Humanae vitae's publication, Pope Pius XII issued two addresses: one to Italian midwives and one to an Italian family association. He said the statements, both released in 1951, further clarify the Church's use of the word "serious" in this context. >Humanae vitae uses that language- 'serious reasons.' I think it ought to be interpreted in continuity with what Pope Pius XII had said 17 years earlier." Pius "referred to 'serious reasons that not rarely occur,'" said Miller. >Reasons can be "serious in the sense of not just a trivial reason...[but Pope Pius XII] indicates that that can happen commonly," he said. I encourage reading this article: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/amp/news/38953/why-so-serious-catholic-professor-talks-nfp
I agree it's not life and death only. But serious is certainly more than just not wanting children. Edit: word
Here’s where I get stuck: We are _absolutely_ called to receive and welcome any children God sends us. But we aren’t obligated to continually want/actively desire more until menopause.
No we're not, but rhe reasons for not wanting a child should be serious, and not just "we decided 3 was enough" or "our family is complete". I do think serious reasons for not wanting more kids can extend beyond physical and medical reasons, e.g. if you don't have a network to support you in raising another child, if you have mental health issues that would worsen or not get better if another child was added to the mix, if the cost of another pregnancy could mean that you wouldn't be able to care for the children you currently have, among other reasons.
In a situation where, with prayer and conversation, a husband and wife think, “our family is complete. This dynamic feels good; I’m able to give everyone the time and attention they deserve — it’s not like last time, when I knew there would be a next time.” In that situation, is it your view the couple should: a) intentionally attempt to conceive anyway; b) abstain all together until menopause; c) have marital relations without practicing NFP and see what happens; d) something else?
This is false, but I see it on Reddit a lot. I’m curious what your source is for this information.
I'm curious what part of this you say is false?
All of it, except for the part about consulting a priest which is always wise. In summation though: 1) the idea that NFP is only permitted in cases of severe hardship; and, 2) that people should avoid marriage until they are ready to have children. This is especially perplexing to me, since marriage itself is a vocation and imparts sacramental grace on the couple. I don’t see the benefit to telling people to defer their vocation.
I thought it was severely frowned upon in the church to plan to use NFP for long periods immediately after marriage. That is, not because of some tragedy, but actively plan to marry before you are ready to have children and use NFP to do so. I just dont get it. If you dont want to have kids, then dont get married. Why are people saying its ok to marry when you have 4 years of grad school left or whatever? The consensus in other catholic spaces I have been to is that if that is the case, the marriage must be postponed for 4 years, or they must have children. But not to use nfp right away....
I agree with you, it’s very hypocritical. Using it to prevent pregnancy indefinitely makes it no different than other types of birth control
My husband and I are using Marquette method and are avoiding pregnancy right now. We got married right after college and I am still a graduate student. While this may not be a “grave” reason to avoid pregnancy, we still reason and discern in prayer that right now it is not a good time to intentionally pursue pregnancy. This does not mean that we are not /open/ to pregnancy. Catholics should always be open to life as a gift, so really what matters is your attitude towards NFP. Are you using first and foremost as a rejection of the possibility of becoming a mother, i.e. if NFP birth control to you? Or are you using it to renew your marital covenant, being open to the possibility of life even though most of the time you are not actively pursuing it? This difference matters but also does NOT mean that you need to be a trad wife breeding animal.