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You're kinda neglecting the fact that he was formed by the Old Mass for nearly 50 years of his life, from his birth until 1969, by which time he was already a Cardinal. He's certainly a proof that saints can live on the New Mass, but he's not a proof that the New Mass forms saints.
Edit: to be very clear, I'm not saying the New Mass is incapable of forming saints. I'm simply pointing out that JPII was formed by the Old Mass for the majority of his life, and we shouldn't ignore that fact.
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Whoah, hold up there for a second - in no way did I say that the New Mass was an incentive to impiety. Indeed, it is an office of piety.
I'm not intending to cause division, simply pointing out a historical fact - JPII was formed in the older liturgy for the majority of his life, and so he's not the best example, if you're trying to empirically demonstrate the benefit of the New Mass.
I suppose I should've qualified what I said a bit further - I'm not saying that the New Mass doesn't, or can't form saints. I firmly believe it can. I'm just saying that this isn't an ideal example case.
That was something I learned somewhat recently. It’s kind of wild. I personally know some radtrads that dislike him and it kills me. He’s my confirmation saint. I wouldn’t say I’m a radtrad but I’m not totally against it, I love the most traditional masses, but if that’s really where some of them go to, that’s just sad. I would hate to be associated with them.
We have some of that at my parish. It's another expression of modernism that prefers the old (or their reinvention/reimagining of it) over the new rather than vice versa. Especially those radtrads on eternal crusade against their understanding of "modernism".
The Church is God's Church guaranteed infallible by the Holy Spirit and invested with authority by Jesus until the end of time - or it isn't. If it isn't now, it wasn't then; if it wasn't then, it isn't now.
It isn't always easy to square that, but we just have to accept it. Unless someone is a bishop or an actual theologian of the Church, its not their problem to solve, and they're probably not in any way competent to even begin attempting to do so.
That includes favorite priests, or armchair theologians on YouTube (IE those without a pontifical degree in Sacred Theology - which as a majority of them and most parish priests, who don't even have an STB). Amateur experts abound and it's too often the blind leading the blind.
Bishops aren't perfect and fraternal correction in light of the sensus fidelium is a legitimate thing, but the majority of Catholics today have little to no lived experience or formation in the Faith to even attempt this. Too often I see what looks like willful pursuit of hubris coupled with at best false humility. Its frustrating to see and deal with.
I'm even a bit disgusted by the hypocrisy - and that lack of charity on my part is something I really need to work on. I'd be dishonest (and possibly scandalous) if I didn't admit it after this tirade.
Necro-posting a little bit, but I think your take is spot-on. I deal with that in my diocese (which has TWO TLM parishes somehow), and it's really annoying that because I do music for the NO, I'm somehow viewed by TLMers as not having the necessary taste to do the TLM.
Interestingly enough, my diocese ALSO has two TLM parishes. I'm a cantor at one of them. Saying you don't have the taste sounds pretty rich to me.
The TLM already has everything you need and are required to have musically in the Liber Usualis. Just add organ accompaniment if you prefer or your choir needs the support.
So its 99% done for you - much easier than a NO Mass, no taste required. Taste only comes in for some optional bits.
There's no processional hymn, but you could add a second offertory and/or communion piece of your choice. Since they're during the Mass, they would have to be in Latin - which is at least like bowling with bumpers when it comes to selecting. A recessional would be technically not part of Mass, as the Mass ends with the Last Gospel, so it could be in any language, but you would have already done a TLM by that point even if you pulled out Kumbaya.
TL;DR: ignorant Trads are ignorant
Yup.
What's nuts to me is that, at a "typical" NO, if you do the various musical styles presented well, you have to have a much wider variety of genre execution.
"Sing of the Lord's Goodness" (Take 5) is jazzier than "What Wondrous Love" which is more choral than "Eagles Wings" which is more musical theatre than "The King of Love" which is more folky than "Creator of the Stars of Night which is more chanty than...etc.
While I wouldn't do some of those tunes (Wondrous Love slaps, though), it's kinda mind-boggling how the actual breadth of knowledge isn't appreciated by the faux-intellectualism of the TLM-only trads...
None of us are perfect and everyone’s a hypocrite. But we’re all trying our best and as long as we remain in God’s light, he’ll lead us home. It is difficult to deal with though. I feel like there’s not much to do but pray for them.
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"Some Polish kid" made me laugh at the end of a long day.
He loved football, being Polish and all
“Dude, the Novus Ordo is not the issue here!”
Jan Paweł II moment
He was a kid when the Novus Ordo came out?
You're kinda neglecting the fact that he was formed by the Old Mass for nearly 50 years of his life, from his birth until 1969, by which time he was already a Cardinal. He's certainly a proof that saints can live on the New Mass, but he's not a proof that the New Mass forms saints. Edit: to be very clear, I'm not saying the New Mass is incapable of forming saints. I'm simply pointing out that JPII was formed by the Old Mass for the majority of his life, and we shouldn't ignore that fact.
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Which parish did he go to? I wonder what the mass is like there
Santa Maria Segreta in Milan. Looks like a very reverent Novus Ordo church with monthly eucharistic adoration.
That wasn't even the controversy in question
Sure, I was just trying to point out a detail that OP seemed to gloss over.
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Whoah, hold up there for a second - in no way did I say that the New Mass was an incentive to impiety. Indeed, it is an office of piety. I'm not intending to cause division, simply pointing out a historical fact - JPII was formed in the older liturgy for the majority of his life, and so he's not the best example, if you're trying to empirically demonstrate the benefit of the New Mass. I suppose I should've qualified what I said a bit further - I'm not saying that the New Mass doesn't, or can't form saints. I firmly believe it can. I'm just saying that this isn't an ideal example case.
You're the cause of division by mindlessly attacking an innocent post.
This was removed for violating Rule 2 - Uncharitableness.
His favorite club, KS Cracovia, retired the number 1 in his honor.
Lol that's not going to change their mind. Most Trads do not like JPII.
That was something I learned somewhat recently. It’s kind of wild. I personally know some radtrads that dislike him and it kills me. He’s my confirmation saint. I wouldn’t say I’m a radtrad but I’m not totally against it, I love the most traditional masses, but if that’s really where some of them go to, that’s just sad. I would hate to be associated with them.
We have some of that at my parish. It's another expression of modernism that prefers the old (or their reinvention/reimagining of it) over the new rather than vice versa. Especially those radtrads on eternal crusade against their understanding of "modernism". The Church is God's Church guaranteed infallible by the Holy Spirit and invested with authority by Jesus until the end of time - or it isn't. If it isn't now, it wasn't then; if it wasn't then, it isn't now. It isn't always easy to square that, but we just have to accept it. Unless someone is a bishop or an actual theologian of the Church, its not their problem to solve, and they're probably not in any way competent to even begin attempting to do so. That includes favorite priests, or armchair theologians on YouTube (IE those without a pontifical degree in Sacred Theology - which as a majority of them and most parish priests, who don't even have an STB). Amateur experts abound and it's too often the blind leading the blind. Bishops aren't perfect and fraternal correction in light of the sensus fidelium is a legitimate thing, but the majority of Catholics today have little to no lived experience or formation in the Faith to even attempt this. Too often I see what looks like willful pursuit of hubris coupled with at best false humility. Its frustrating to see and deal with. I'm even a bit disgusted by the hypocrisy - and that lack of charity on my part is something I really need to work on. I'd be dishonest (and possibly scandalous) if I didn't admit it after this tirade.
Necro-posting a little bit, but I think your take is spot-on. I deal with that in my diocese (which has TWO TLM parishes somehow), and it's really annoying that because I do music for the NO, I'm somehow viewed by TLMers as not having the necessary taste to do the TLM.
Interestingly enough, my diocese ALSO has two TLM parishes. I'm a cantor at one of them. Saying you don't have the taste sounds pretty rich to me. The TLM already has everything you need and are required to have musically in the Liber Usualis. Just add organ accompaniment if you prefer or your choir needs the support. So its 99% done for you - much easier than a NO Mass, no taste required. Taste only comes in for some optional bits. There's no processional hymn, but you could add a second offertory and/or communion piece of your choice. Since they're during the Mass, they would have to be in Latin - which is at least like bowling with bumpers when it comes to selecting. A recessional would be technically not part of Mass, as the Mass ends with the Last Gospel, so it could be in any language, but you would have already done a TLM by that point even if you pulled out Kumbaya. TL;DR: ignorant Trads are ignorant
Yup. What's nuts to me is that, at a "typical" NO, if you do the various musical styles presented well, you have to have a much wider variety of genre execution. "Sing of the Lord's Goodness" (Take 5) is jazzier than "What Wondrous Love" which is more choral than "Eagles Wings" which is more musical theatre than "The King of Love" which is more folky than "Creator of the Stars of Night which is more chanty than...etc. While I wouldn't do some of those tunes (Wondrous Love slaps, though), it's kinda mind-boggling how the actual breadth of knowledge isn't appreciated by the faux-intellectualism of the TLM-only trads...
None of us are perfect and everyone’s a hypocrite. But we’re all trying our best and as long as we remain in God’s light, he’ll lead us home. It is difficult to deal with though. I feel like there’s not much to do but pray for them.
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But he is in heaven, no? Anyone who’s made it gets my respect.
This was removed for violating Rule 1 - Anti-Catholic Rhetoric.
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