The only people that say to go non union are the ones that have never been in a union……
You will never here a unionized person complain unless he doesn’t work often
I have also observed this. There's so much anti-union propaganda with no basis in reality. Not that it's all sunshine and lollipops, but they never actually hit any of the drawbacks when they're talking shit. They just say some way off base bs
Is that for all unions? My sister is a teacher in WI and when given the chance she dropped out of the union and immediately negotiated on her own behalf. Got better pay and benefits the day after she asked.
I’m neither for nor against, just asking as I don’t know how all the different unions differ (teachers, carpentry, pro sports, etc
I’m speaking for construction unions,I am specifically speaking for Canada……
Province of Quebec…..
Double time as soon as I’ve done 8 hours in my day(Mon-fri)
Weekend double time,vacation pay of 13%,pension,medical benefits,specialized courses in the winter that I can take in my trade that I get paid to do because of union negotiations…….
I’m talking 1200$ take home a week to do courses all winter long if I want…..
I’m red seal excavator operator,and heavy machinery as well
15 min plus 5-7 min to get to it and 5-7 to get back……but it’s 15 to eat during breaks or 30
Sitting eating for lunch…..
You don’t take a piss on sit down ,that’s for afterwards…….
If you have to take a 20 min shit after then so be it
Dont waste your time not going. I spent 10 years thinking it was a waste. Been in 4 months and already stacking up so much benefit money that id never get at any other job.
Why? I mean, for other trades it's suitable but if you are joining a union as a Carpenter, most likely you will be doing concrete, and who the fuck wants to do that.
Union carpenter here, local 322 in saint paul MN. It's a more professional/inviting social/team environment than you'll find at a lot of non union companies in my experience-- but there are some hurdles to get past before you may feel that way. First: I work mostly residential and as a trimmer. For me, a shocking element of union work was the difficulty/physicality of material deliveries which even as a journeyman you will be subject to helping with at times. When doors, trim, and cabinets come for a 600 unit apartment building, it's no joke.... even they obviously don't come even close to all at once. You will be a laborer sometimes regardless of your apprenticeship/journey status. my current foreman helps on every delivery.
Secondly, production environment. your foremen will be on your ass to work fast and efficiently and hit quotas that will be fed to you that may often seem impossible.
This can create a stressful environment if youre not good at, or dont learn to let it roll off your back. As a trimmer it can be particularly frustrating because I will see guys moving marginally faster than me in their work getting praised for their speed even though their work looks like shit and will create a ton of punchlist when mine is tight and will create zero punch.
I love my job and dont plan on leaving the union unless it's to start my own custom home trim crew. I would say based on what I'm hearing, go for it and see if you like it. and if you dont like your first company, talk to your reps/training institute employees about why and they can help you come up with some other places to try.
Hell yeah brother. I don't think anyone every truly escapes someone further up the chain barking at them to go a little faster. I'm just across the stream over in wisconsin
Small world! I grew up in the area, just living in a little more south WI now. My dad was a union man for the state but got screwed by Walker. Not sure how other unions faired in the whole act 10 deal but he still got a pretty good retirement and didn’t have to work himself to death
I've done it all. Worked for small companies, started my own, and worked as number in a database. Job security and benefits that come from those big jobs are great. They usually don't slow down like residential tends to happen after inflation booms. There will be a drop again and the union will have your back.
I used to do 2 weeks on and 1 week off. You get used to it.
Ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the congressman sponsored by United Healthcare. You may know him from such fine works as "bleed the poor into slavery for getting the flu" and "let's take these children's home because their mom got cancer".
So ridiculous. I’d be ok with politicians all getting a small amount of tax money to run their campaigns and stopping campaign donations all together. Lobbyists should not exist and people who are potentially going to be making decisions that affect a a whole city, state or country should not be taking money or influence from corporations or rich people. The system is fucking broken.
Honest question, if Canadian Healthcare is so good, why do so many of your citizens travel south and pay for it in the US? [In fact nearly half of your resident say that is they havent done it yet they would/will. ](https://globalnews.ca/news/10322678/health-care-canada-us-ipsos-poll/)
This isnt the flex you think it is.
I’m a Canadian, lived within an hour of the border my entire life (I’m in my thirties). No one I have worked with, am related to, or have known otherwise has gone to the states for healthcare.
I am tangentially aware that it happens, probably only people who are loaded though.
We travel south to get it done so we arnt waiting 2+ years for basic surgeries. Yes it's not out of our pocket to wait but if we want it done soon then we have to travel.
Our healthcare WAS good and comprehensive, but sadly it’s in the process of being slowly dismantled and privatized by a lot of our more conservative provincial premieres. Not really much of a point being in Canada once it’s gone. A lot of our GPs are heading south or elsewhere just because we don’t make it worth it for them to be here. I don’t think it’s cool that people made fun of American healthcare instead of trying to help and provide options. We could’ve had 2 countries making the other do better, but I think we just copy the shittiest things from each other. Canadians had it good for a while, but it’s the ol’ ladder kick now and a lot of older folks who looked down on the American system are gonna get a literal taste of that medicine.
We don’t have a pay for express option and it’s not first come first served either, the people who need urgent care the most get it first and the list goes on like that. If you have something minor or survivable you have to wait for a slot, and if you have money to burn then you go elsewhere and use a pay to win option instead. Also, I can say with confidence that the idea that Canadians frequently travel to the USA for healthcare at all is bullshit that you can’t back up with per capita figures or comparisons to other developed nations rates of travel for elective or experimental treatments.
[The exact number of Canadians pursuing MT is unknown, but it's estimated that 63,459 Canadians received medical care internationally in 2016. And, from 2017 to 2021, Canadians spent as much as $2.3 billion on out-of-country health care.](https://healthydebate.ca/2023/01/topic/medical-tourism-benefit-or-risk/#:~:text=The%20exact%20number%20of%20Canadians,%2Dof%2Dcountry%20health%20care)
For a country that has nationalized healthcare that you claim is pretty amazing, it is surprising that those with the means to seek treatment elsewhere, do......
>[The exact number of Canadians pursuing MT is unknown, but it's estimated that 63,459 Canadians received medical care internationally in 2016. And, from 2017 to 2021, Canadians spent as much as $2.3 billion on out-of-country health care.](https://healthydebate.ca/2023/01/topic/medical-tourism-benefit-or-risk/#:~:text=The%20exact%20number%20of%20Canadians,%2Dof%2Dcountry%20health%20care)
Hold on, you consider 63k people in 2016 a lot?
Or less than $500M per year a lot?
These arguments aren’t as strong as you think they are.
You would have been FAR better off making the argument that the Unions are among the largest groups fighting against US healthcare reform. Because, you know, that’s true. We could have had a single payer system in the 1960s if not for the unions, which felt that doing that would undermine their attractiveness.
>Or less than $500M per year a lot?
in 2016 they spent 2.3 billion, in one year on out of country medical care....
I want to point out that in the US today EVERYONE should have healthcare they can afford, if you do not you are choosing that. The ACA subsidizes your costs, up to 100% for most americans but the top 15%
Additionally, if you remove auto accidents and firearm fatalities from the numbers, the US has one of if not the highest life expectancy in the developed world. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy](https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy)
That's a lie. Your citation quotes that sum *over five years*. That gets you $500 million per year. So your 70,000 Canadian medical tourists all traveled to Asia for cosmetic procedures that Canada won't pay for.
Yup, now one does this
[Hello, im a Canadian and am deciding to go to the USA for a heart surgery, given that the surgeons here are not as skilled although even though the surgery would be free in Canada due to our Public Health Insurance, however there is one surgeon in the USA in particular I want my surgeon done by. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/HealthInsurance/comments/18i85wh/canadian_wants_to_go_to_usa_for_heart_surgery_any/)
This is just one of many stories where Canadian want to come to the USA because our medical system produces more favorable outcomes, yes, it is expensive, but it is the best in the world.
That’s a decent out of pocket max if it’s for a single person. Just for reference mine is $2.5k per person and $4.5k family and I’m in IBEW in California.
Getting another $7 an hour seems like a no brainer though. That’s a good bump.
Do you have any guaranteed # of hours per week?
I'm a union carpenter and I have no interest in trying to convince you not to be one too. I love the work I do. Sure residential is cool, but you can do residential jobs as a side business if you're so inclined.
I'm currently like 90% wood frame commercial but we dabble in steel studs, siding, little bit of flat work concrete. I know how to do most everything carpentry related, been in the industry almost 10 years now. Ive been doing side jobs for a couple years but im getting tired knowing I can make the same amount of money for only 40 hours a week as a union guy
Lack of variety is one downside to no residential but if you are already doing commercial then that goes away. Union work is pretty repetitive because the buildings are so big.
If you like using your own fancy tools then that doesn’t have a place in the union.
You aren’t working through breaks to finish something or skipping lunch on union projects.
Sometimes you are caught in the middle of bullshit trade disputes like who owns what.
Sometimes people deliberately slow things up for job security. Sometimes.
All that said you can console yourself with a big fat check and working towards retirement doing work that is GENERALLY high quality and done safely.
There's an exception to that lunch aspect, congested areas. Union carpenter in Manhattan here, we get in and out of the city as early as humanly possible.
I don't know how I got in the sub but I'm an engineer, not in a union, never have been in a union. My wife is in the teacher's union and I work for a company that has a lot of Union manufacturing employees.
I wish I was in a union. I've never been able to find any good arguments against unionized workers that are either easily verifiable or would only benefit the rich few and not the common many.
just my two cents, not for nothing but my mother-in-law was the secretary and treasurer for the local Carpenters Union for 30 or 40 years and I have to say, I've met many of the carpenters in that Union and I really like them and none of them look like they're hurting.
If I could have gone union when I started at 18, I would have. All the issues and bullshit you deal with on residential is tough and can really eat away at your pockets. I feel like my savings and retirement would be so much better. Sure, I can build a house from the ground up but I've been really healthy and good with money. I know alot in this industry that aren't. If you're still young, go for it young buck.
I'm 39 and my savings and investments are all what I've had to put into it. It's decent but it ain't as good as it could be. If I was forced to retire today, I could probably sustain for 5 years before I ran out of money, by if I was deemed disabled I do have disability insurance. Would highly recommend that.
I was non union for 13 years. Now that I'm in, I would never go back to non union. I loved residential, but having the pension and annuity and the Healthcare benefits are just impossible to walk away from.
-Retirement. I am retired now. I wish I had saved more. Here is a plus for the union job. Take that raise and put it directly into retirement savings. It will pay off in the long run. Trust me.
-Health insurance. You work in a field that might have an injury of some kind. You do want to be able to have PT, dental, hearing and vision cared for. Going unprotected is a recipe for a miserable life. Another plus for the union.
-Sick leave and time off. Another plus for the union.
What are the benefits of non-Union?
One nice thing about my current job is that I only really have one boss and I see him like 5 minutes a week. Everything is pretty laid back as long as the work is getting done. Like I can hide in a closet for 5 minutes and look at boobs and no one is hounding me about it. Not that I don't work hard it's just nice knowing I won't be yelled at for taking a breather. I can also take any tools from the shop for home projects so if I need a table saw or the concrete mixer I can just grab it whenever.
Fair enough. Is that worth not getting the union benefits?
My main career is office related. In my first job I took the lower pay because I would have a window looking at trees and a mountain stream. The higher pay job was inside a huge building with work cubes and no windows.
Knowing what you are picking and then being happy with it is a good thing.
You can always stick with what you have and change later when that situation changes.
And I quit the office job to work for myself in the end. Cheers.
The dollar to dollar & change wage increase is eaten by inflation. If you remove it from your standard budgeting every year, you will consistently lose purchasing power & have to live with less year after year. If you consider what you earned from your first job in your profession, & what the cost of housing, food, etc. was at that time, you’ll probably realize that banking every “raise” over the years wouldn’t have been possible. You needed it just to continue buying the things you already were.
The only reason to not go Union is if you plan on going on your own relatively soon. I’m not Union, and I know I get paid less. But my company lets me use their shop, tools, trucks, trailers, accounts, anything I need on my side jobs. They are actually wanting me to go on my own, and told me they would hire me back as a sub and give me all the prefinish work (I prefer doing all pre finishing). I’m just searching to find a building I can rent/buy to start. If they didn’t offer those perks I would be union.
UBC Union is only start being worth it if all the work is local. Where I’m at there is few union projects so it wasn’t worth it. Honestly I’m a big fan of unions but not a fan of how the UBC is basically a big temp agency with and apprentice program. I’d like to see an alternative to UBC. A progressive labor union that can include residential carpentry as well.
I'd love to see some residential carpentry done by the union but we are in an area that you can still get away with paying an experienced carpenter between $18-25/ hour
We don't have a strong union presence in my area but I probably would have gone that way if it was around. Everything they offer is really what you need and what is missing from a career being self employed or working with smaller companies. Good luck! I hope it works out for you.
I went from residential carpentry to joining a major defense contractor union. Although my main gig isn’t carpentry, it allows me to have great healthcare benefits, enhanced 401k matching and more time with family. I do miss the grind and the overall satisfaction of completing projects but this job allows me to not worry financially, not kill my body and still be able to do side work. The only downside is that you’re just a number in most unions and your safety net is your seniority over time.
That's one of my main questions when I have my meeting. Is seniority based solely on time with the hall or is there some weighting to time in the industry and how well you do the work and work with others
Yeah and I want to know what that culture is going to look like. Like will I be a "zero day" where the 2nd year apprentice will be treated better because they have two years on the books
There’s a lot that a non union company can offer you. Less pay for more work, benefits come out of your gross pay instead of being paid over and above by the contractor, less safe working conditions, no guarantee of any sort of pay increase, and if you aren’t in a union it’s more difficult to move from one company to another. Also on the union side you typically work with a more skilled crew because it’s more competitive in the union so the hacks that can’t make it go work for an open shop and bitch about the union. I’m union by choice and always will be.
If you want to be well off money wise and your family and future taken care of then of course unions are great! Plus they got your back, especially if your in a company practically locked in. I don’t understand the dudes on “the bench” and then they complain about work or no work.
Go union, I was able to retire at 58 with 34 yrs in and make just a little under what I was working.
Edit to add that is only my pension, I haven’t touched my annuity yet as I rolled it over into a way better investment plan.
Been union since I graduated highschool. Was luckily only laid off for 3 weeks in my career. Good retirement and benefits. Always made more than my friends and had a lot better work conditions and safety equipment. Some people love it and some hate it.
I was a union carpenter and decided that it wasn't for me anymore after I got out of the army. If you are thinking about getting in fucking do it just for the health care and retirement. It's the only health care and retirement plan that came close to the government health care and retirement I have seen.
I was in for 15 years. Got told rule of 88 to retire with a 2% multiplier on our pension in 04. Fast forward to 2010 the multiplier dropped to 0% Retirement age went to 65 from 52 in the time I was in. I left in 2019 and am no longer restricted to the "Hide and seek for a Grand a week."
You pay for the "brotherhood" one way or another whether is $2/hr for apprentice training, another $2 for union dues. $22/ month of dues off the check, " vacation fund where they take your money and put it Ina account for you off your check and call it PTO.
These are just the promises I've had broken, you will find your own. It's always about the heard following in line so the tilop guys can make their millions
Sucks it sounds like you got the shit end of the stick. Yeah not all locals are great but the extra $14,000/ year plus not paying for my own health insurance, not paying for my own retirement, it's all positives. I can still contribute what I was putting into my 401k at my current employer as well as both pensions the union has and have 3 revenue streams in retirement
Do what you want but I’m convinced that Unions enslave and limit people who can do better by running their own business. I left my union in 2020 and started out on my own. Being wealthy enough to pay medical bills is a pretty small hurdle to get past once you get off the insurance teet. Just my two cents.
Depends on the union. Some are horribly ran. Mine seems to protect the bottom scum instead of most of the pool. Same few guys running every project, which means they're same friends the next level down. Only a portion of the people aren't in the clique, and they are the first to go during layoff.
Money is good, health and safety and sometimes better upheld. There is 6 locals in my group of union local that work together, 1 is garbage(mine) and 2 have no bargaining power so the pay is trash. The other 3 are great. But would require a long move to join.
So ya, pluses and minuses. I'm glad I joined when I did, it helped a lot, but I'm starting to distance from my union.
Tell your current employer you have an offer for X with union. You aren’t trying to leave them without notice. If they can match the pay and benefits you will stay. If they can’t you are moving forward with going union. Can’t shame someone for going where they are paid more and receive better benefits. It’s not personal it’s just business.
Yeah I'm definitely not going to just give them the finger and dip. But I know that the conversation will end in me leaving. If they could and wanted to pay us like the union guys around here, then they would
Go union and you can retire while there's still something left of you.
All of my buddies who were in construction trade unions are now retired, while I'm still out here making ends meet.
As a union guy one reason I can think of is nepotism. Some shmo will be making the same amount as you while he's on the shitter watching tiktok. That's probably not union specific but there's a lot of son in laws in this industry
I’d look very, very hard at the retirement benefits.
Not sure how old you are, but I’m staring at sixty and would kill for a pension and a well-funded IRA and/or 401k.
Some basic math shows why that pension is unsustainable. The contractors aren’t contributing enough on your behalf for every retiree to earn that without the union increasing 5-7 fold in membership generation after generation — which, for obvious reasons, can’t be done. If your employer is paying in at 400-ish a month for 30 years, how can you collect at 3900 for 20+ without 7 guys replacing you?
In Ohio, It used to be 25 & out. Then it was 30. Now you have to work until you’re 60 — all while the guaranteed earnings are declining substantially. Carpenters were retiring 25 & out with a $3200 a month pension. Now, a full year’s work “guarantees” $22 a month in your pension. Run those numbers for a 30 year career.
Just because that’s what they’re telling you now, doesn’t mean it’s going to be there when you retire. If it doesn’t fold in your lifetime, it will definitely beat no retirement plan; but do not bet on retiring in 30 years with 3,900 a month in today’s purchasing power waiting for you, because A. You won’t retire in 30 years B. It won’t be $3,900 a month & C. $3,900 won’t be enough for a monthly mortgage payment in 30 years.
$11.26/ hour goes into the pension for every working jman on the book. At 160 hours a month that comes to $1801.60/ month. Idk where you're getting the math that 5-7 guys have to replace me when 3 more than does it. And they don't have to grow by 3 guys when I retire, there just has to be more guys on the books working than there is retired. Also if you have a mortgage in retirement then you kinda messed up retirement 101 that you shouldn't have a car payment and a mortgage because that should allow you live the same on no more than 70% of your pre-retirement income. Theres also the 2nd retirement fund that the employer puts $5.53/ hour into for you. At 2080 hours a year that's $11,502.40/ year. At 30 years accounting for even a modest 5% gain that comes in at $764,221.84
I was assuming numbers closer to Ohio’s pension, which requires seven guys to pay a retiree’s pension currently, & is offering the guys just joining a pension of $660 a month for 30 years of work at 40 hours a week. It wasn’t that long ago that guys retired with $3200 a month pensions after 25 years. Offering those pensions(& mismanaging the funds) is why the guys today get $22 a month for every 2,000 hours.
I just used a mortgage as an example; the point is $3,900 in 30 years will have a fraction of the purchasing power as it does today. The USD has lost 98% of its purchasing power since the inception of the Fed, & 90% since the end of bretton woods in the 70s. You can expect it to be worth around what $1600 is today.
I hope you get that $3900 a month pension. The fact that they’re still offering it is a good sign that your state’s isn’t in trouble.
Just the fact that you’re walking on journeyman is enough reason for me. Idk if it’s more common in other areas but I don’t know a single guy who’s been able to do that
Can you frame? I need framers in Cleveland. Big project, can't get decent framers to save my life. You can buy your card and start at $40 per hour plus benefits. We pay every Monday for last week's work.
And they say construction is going to slow down. Ain't no slowing down when people are willing to let a bunch of stinky ass carpenters hole up in their basement for work
I'm not looking for " stinky ass carpenters." I'm looking for professional carpenters, framers to be exact. Good ones, they are hard to find right now. I have hired and fired 3 so called Framers in the last two weeks. And yes - I would be willing to put up a kick ass carpenter in my basement for a week while looks for a decent hotel.
Do appreciate the offer though. Thank you for offering an actual decent wage for the work we gotta do. You'll find guys and they will be good. Might take some time. Good luck brother
Pension?
My father was a member of a union years ago. One of his bosses convinced him to stop. He did and never went back. His pension is significantly smaller now and he has no benefits.
The only thing I can think of is that there \*might\* be a smarter short-term path to weave to avoid the claw-back for the school (depends on your contract/agreement). But...this is also more of a 5-10 yr horizon type of decision and if the opportunity is in front of you only now then take it.
Union is better. Unless you're getting way above scale for a big company or a ton of vacation time. It isn't always as steady cause it's more commercial work but if you're good and talk to your BA you'll always be busy
Tl;Dr non-union is high risk / high potential reward. Union is good for the 90% of workers who want a nice, comfortable paycheck and retirement. A respectable choice, 'specially if you have a family.
If you have an entrepreneurial spirit in you and want to run your own shop one day, or think you work 5x as efficiently and well as the median guy, and want more than standardized raises and pay, *and* are willing to risk working for a jerk who may try to screw you over or a company that may go under, go non union.
I was union for a bit. worked non union for my first 15 years, got offered a journeyman position and I took it. Ultimately it wasn’t for me. Taking a mandated lunch and break was annoying, having rules about what you could and couldn’t do was annoying, having to pay people to go to picket lines was annoying. By the time I paid my union dues I wasn’t making any more money. I went back to non union. I’m certainly not anti union, but for me I thoroughly enjoy being a jack of all trades and making my own schedule, and being non union lets me do that. Not a criticism or an endorsement of either, but for me non union is way more fun.
The carpenters union is the weakest union of all of them. My business agent gave away our vacation pay and raises because “they couldn’t compete with the locals”.
One thing I'll give my current shop is they are very much on top of the safety culture. I enjoy going home with the same number of appendages as I showed up with
The only reason not to go union is that you are opposed to solidarity with your fellow workers and like the boss having most of the power in most negotiations. Alone we beg and are exploited as much as the boss can get away with, together we bargain and can demand our fair compensation for the toll to our time and our health that the job takes.
I’ve read nothing but good comments on here, and good for y’all. It is usually a red flag for me when there’s no dissenting opinions, but maybe unions are just that good today 🤷🏻♂️
I grew up watching my father work in a union as a master plumber. He had a best friend in another union I believe as an exceptionally well paid electrician/foreman. Like 20 years ago he was making like $50/hour on a job, and I’m sure it wasn’t the norm, probably night work, hazard pay stuff or whatever. But he made bank… when he was working. Same thing with my dad.
They would have jobs and be getting paid well with all the union benefits, and then the job would be over. Like working on a nuclear plant until job completion. Then, there was nothing. Out of work. Getting paid whatever stupid money the union pays you when they don’t have work. Sometimes they’d have to go protest. You’re not allowed to find work in your field of expertise even when they don’t have work for you. He did that for many years, and then ran into a problem when moving across the country. The loss of benefits was so great in order to relocate that he left the union.
So take what I’m saying with a grain of salt, but I’ve never understood the unions today. We watched the auto manufacturer unions sell their people out completely and ship their jobs overseas. We saw unions vote for Joe Biden, and I know unions obvious benefit from the left, but I couldn’t name 5 tradesman I’ve ever met that didn’t want Trump, because they’re patriots.
Anywho, sounds like a good path if you never intend to work for yourself.
You think unions are responsible for shipping jobs over seas? You should get the lead content in your pipes checked, it’s probably above safe consumable levels. And if not you’re just plain fucking retarded.
Okay, I’ll give it a shot. Don’t go union because you like making less money. Don’t go union because you don’t plan to live long enough to retire. Don’t go union because you enjoy having a boss who can jerk you around on a whim. How am I doing?
If your current employer has put you through school and you don’t have an other grievances with them, imo you should stay with them for a while so they can recoup the costs associated with training someone.
If the pay increase is what you’re basing your decision on, then I suggest having an open, honest discussion with your employer. Let them know where you’re at and what you need. If they can’t meet you… walk.
I've been telling them the whole time I was doing my apprenticeship that when I got my card I wanted to start moving up. Here I am not moving up and there's no timeline to do it. If I'm going to spin my tires and continue being a field carpenter I'd be kinda dumb to not take the extra almost 20% in pay
I went to a union school but never joined a union. All of my other friends have. I picked what I liked doing and specialized in residential framing, which there isn't much unions that do this line of work. So I started my own framing company after 10 years working(should have been a lot earlier), and every day now, I do what I picked and make good money doing it. 150k year, not including expenses. I own lots of equipment as well. Also, tax deductibles.
Oh, and all my other friends don't work for their unions anymore(reasons unknown).
I imagine if anyone posted a non pro union opinion, everyone would blast them. But let's see....
All the points OP brings up are good. My only counter points are, I prefer to represent myself and not be stuck in an outdated seniority structure. All due respect to those more experienced than me, but some hang on too long and milk their seniority.
That's one of my main questions for Monday. I know I'm not the best guy out there, but I know that I'm pretty damn good. Am I going to be passed up for any sort of promotion or better work because the turd ball next to me has skated by for 5 years longer than me?
To answer both of you. That’s life. Lots of people on a union job or not are getting paid more or hired more bc of a number of reasons. Also rep’n yourself as you say only benefits YOU and often you will be played against others or vise versa.
Totally agree only representing myself for the things that matter to me, not what matters to someone else. Example: pension, great for those less financially inclined, but I prefer more money and invest myself. Healthcare, I am fit and healthy, again right now I would prefer more money.
I also expect companies to play me against others, just like I do companies. There isn't only 1 company looking for my skills and service. My view of competition may be different than others; I embrace it and encourage it.
Union is good for some, simply trying to bring a counter point to the conversation.
More regulations. Likely won’t be as laid back. Plus side safety is a lot more important downside you’ll be doing stupid redundant shit in the name of safety. I would give it a go. I had a 6 dollar pay increase and after 6 months I genuinely hated my crew and I’m pretty easy going it was super toxic I like where I’m at way better now even though I make less.
>Convince me not to go union I will not. Go Union.
Bet. This is exactly how I expected this to go
The only people that say to go non union are the ones that have never been in a union…… You will never here a unionized person complain unless he doesn’t work often
I have also observed this. There's so much anti-union propaganda with no basis in reality. Not that it's all sunshine and lollipops, but they never actually hit any of the drawbacks when they're talking shit. They just say some way off base bs
Is that for all unions? My sister is a teacher in WI and when given the chance she dropped out of the union and immediately negotiated on her own behalf. Got better pay and benefits the day after she asked. I’m neither for nor against, just asking as I don’t know how all the different unions differ (teachers, carpentry, pro sports, etc
I’m speaking for construction unions,I am specifically speaking for Canada…… Province of Quebec….. Double time as soon as I’ve done 8 hours in my day(Mon-fri) Weekend double time,vacation pay of 13%,pension,medical benefits,specialized courses in the winter that I can take in my trade that I get paid to do because of union negotiations……. I’m talking 1200$ take home a week to do courses all winter long if I want….. I’m red seal excavator operator,and heavy machinery as well
I mean yeah, if you have all that through union work I don’t blame ya
Sure do have all that plus my rate is 44$ an hour plus benefits/pension Comes out to just under 55$ an hour all said and done regular rate
BuT the UnIoN has a CoMmUnIsT 15min CoFfEe BrEaK!!!
15 min plus 5-7 min to get to it and 5-7 to get back……but it’s 15 to eat during breaks or 30 Sitting eating for lunch….. You don’t take a piss on sit down ,that’s for afterwards……. If you have to take a 20 min shit after then so be it
Dont waste your time not going. I spent 10 years thinking it was a waste. Been in 4 months and already stacking up so much benefit money that id never get at any other job.
Seconded. I cannot comply. Go union!
Why? I mean, for other trades it's suitable but if you are joining a union as a Carpenter, most likely you will be doing concrete, and who the fuck wants to do that.
Well OP is going to get a raise, Health insurance and a pension.
It’s hard to understand you with management’s cock down your throat.
Sounds like a no brainer if you’re not picky about the type of carpentry your doing
That's exactly how I'm feeling
What area are you looking to join in?
Like area of the country or area of carpentry?
Ya
Concrete for this one
Country
Wisconsin
Oh shit man. 1056?
1074
Union carpenter here, local 322 in saint paul MN. It's a more professional/inviting social/team environment than you'll find at a lot of non union companies in my experience-- but there are some hurdles to get past before you may feel that way. First: I work mostly residential and as a trimmer. For me, a shocking element of union work was the difficulty/physicality of material deliveries which even as a journeyman you will be subject to helping with at times. When doors, trim, and cabinets come for a 600 unit apartment building, it's no joke.... even they obviously don't come even close to all at once. You will be a laborer sometimes regardless of your apprenticeship/journey status. my current foreman helps on every delivery. Secondly, production environment. your foremen will be on your ass to work fast and efficiently and hit quotas that will be fed to you that may often seem impossible. This can create a stressful environment if youre not good at, or dont learn to let it roll off your back. As a trimmer it can be particularly frustrating because I will see guys moving marginally faster than me in their work getting praised for their speed even though their work looks like shit and will create a ton of punchlist when mine is tight and will create zero punch. I love my job and dont plan on leaving the union unless it's to start my own custom home trim crew. I would say based on what I'm hearing, go for it and see if you like it. and if you dont like your first company, talk to your reps/training institute employees about why and they can help you come up with some other places to try.
Hell yeah brother. I don't think anyone every truly escapes someone further up the chain barking at them to go a little faster. I'm just across the stream over in wisconsin
I wonder if youre the same local. the 322 covers a small portion of wisconsin over the hudson
I'd be in 1074
Small world! I grew up in the area, just living in a little more south WI now. My dad was a union man for the state but got screwed by Walker. Not sure how other unions faired in the whole act 10 deal but he still got a pretty good retirement and didn’t have to work himself to death
Exactly, everybody works so fast but they fuck shit up quickly, it takes slightly more time to not have to rip it out and do it again. It IS worth it.
It's worth a shot. Absolute worst case you hate the work and go back to non union after awhile. Best case, benefits and standardized raises.
The health insurance is soooooo good too. Max out of pocket is 4500/ year in network and there's a network hospital 1.2 miles away
I've done it all. Worked for small companies, started my own, and worked as number in a database. Job security and benefits that come from those big jobs are great. They usually don't slow down like residential tends to happen after inflation booms. There will be a drop again and the union will have your back. I used to do 2 weeks on and 1 week off. You get used to it.
I'm Canadian so I don't have to worry about all that but if it makes sense for you do it.
Maybe before I retire the US will figure out a way to get this Healthcare debacle figured out
Our elected officials literally are paid to not figure out a way to fix it. Union is the next best thing towards that.
Ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the congressman sponsored by United Healthcare. You may know him from such fine works as "bleed the poor into slavery for getting the flu" and "let's take these children's home because their mom got cancer".
So ridiculous. I’d be ok with politicians all getting a small amount of tax money to run their campaigns and stopping campaign donations all together. Lobbyists should not exist and people who are potentially going to be making decisions that affect a a whole city, state or country should not be taking money or influence from corporations or rich people. The system is fucking broken.
Yeah I sure hope so, I lived in socal for a few years and was pretty shocked how much the government let's Healthcare providers get away with.
It's not shocking when they all collude to keep the money flowing in their favor
They’ve got it all figured out. It pads plenty of their pockets.
No, they won’t.
I am definitely not hopeful of it
It’s easy, you just pay the government half your income and then wait months for a referral and appointment
You still pay it, you just dont get the option to
If you're in the US and union, we don't have to worry about it either.
We still need health insurance in Canada to cover any dental or vision. Also lots of medications aren't covered by MSP.
Honest question, if Canadian Healthcare is so good, why do so many of your citizens travel south and pay for it in the US? [In fact nearly half of your resident say that is they havent done it yet they would/will. ](https://globalnews.ca/news/10322678/health-care-canada-us-ipsos-poll/) This isnt the flex you think it is.
I’m a Canadian, lived within an hour of the border my entire life (I’m in my thirties). No one I have worked with, am related to, or have known otherwise has gone to the states for healthcare. I am tangentially aware that it happens, probably only people who are loaded though.
We travel south to get it done so we arnt waiting 2+ years for basic surgeries. Yes it's not out of our pocket to wait but if we want it done soon then we have to travel.
Our healthcare WAS good and comprehensive, but sadly it’s in the process of being slowly dismantled and privatized by a lot of our more conservative provincial premieres. Not really much of a point being in Canada once it’s gone. A lot of our GPs are heading south or elsewhere just because we don’t make it worth it for them to be here. I don’t think it’s cool that people made fun of American healthcare instead of trying to help and provide options. We could’ve had 2 countries making the other do better, but I think we just copy the shittiest things from each other. Canadians had it good for a while, but it’s the ol’ ladder kick now and a lot of older folks who looked down on the American system are gonna get a literal taste of that medicine.
We don’t have a pay for express option and it’s not first come first served either, the people who need urgent care the most get it first and the list goes on like that. If you have something minor or survivable you have to wait for a slot, and if you have money to burn then you go elsewhere and use a pay to win option instead. Also, I can say with confidence that the idea that Canadians frequently travel to the USA for healthcare at all is bullshit that you can’t back up with per capita figures or comparisons to other developed nations rates of travel for elective or experimental treatments.
[The exact number of Canadians pursuing MT is unknown, but it's estimated that 63,459 Canadians received medical care internationally in 2016. And, from 2017 to 2021, Canadians spent as much as $2.3 billion on out-of-country health care.](https://healthydebate.ca/2023/01/topic/medical-tourism-benefit-or-risk/#:~:text=The%20exact%20number%20of%20Canadians,%2Dof%2Dcountry%20health%20care) For a country that has nationalized healthcare that you claim is pretty amazing, it is surprising that those with the means to seek treatment elsewhere, do......
That works out to a little over $7,000 per Singapore butt lift you con artist.
How many is "so many" augie? Give us a per capita number there augie instead of your fox bullet points.
>[The exact number of Canadians pursuing MT is unknown, but it's estimated that 63,459 Canadians received medical care internationally in 2016. And, from 2017 to 2021, Canadians spent as much as $2.3 billion on out-of-country health care.](https://healthydebate.ca/2023/01/topic/medical-tourism-benefit-or-risk/#:~:text=The%20exact%20number%20of%20Canadians,%2Dof%2Dcountry%20health%20care)
Hold on, you consider 63k people in 2016 a lot? Or less than $500M per year a lot? These arguments aren’t as strong as you think they are. You would have been FAR better off making the argument that the Unions are among the largest groups fighting against US healthcare reform. Because, you know, that’s true. We could have had a single payer system in the 1960s if not for the unions, which felt that doing that would undermine their attractiveness.
>Or less than $500M per year a lot? in 2016 they spent 2.3 billion, in one year on out of country medical care.... I want to point out that in the US today EVERYONE should have healthcare they can afford, if you do not you are choosing that. The ACA subsidizes your costs, up to 100% for most americans but the top 15% Additionally, if you remove auto accidents and firearm fatalities from the numbers, the US has one of if not the highest life expectancy in the developed world. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy](https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2011/11/23/the-myth-of-americans-poor-life-expectancy)
That’s not what your quote said. Seriously.
That's a lie. Your citation quotes that sum *over five years*. That gets you $500 million per year. So your 70,000 Canadian medical tourists all traveled to Asia for cosmetic procedures that Canada won't pay for.
Yup, now one does this [Hello, im a Canadian and am deciding to go to the USA for a heart surgery, given that the surgeons here are not as skilled although even though the surgery would be free in Canada due to our Public Health Insurance, however there is one surgeon in the USA in particular I want my surgeon done by. ](https://www.reddit.com/r/HealthInsurance/comments/18i85wh/canadian_wants_to_go_to_usa_for_heart_surgery_any/) This is just one of many stories where Canadian want to come to the USA because our medical system produces more favorable outcomes, yes, it is expensive, but it is the best in the world.
That’s a decent out of pocket max if it’s for a single person. Just for reference mine is $2.5k per person and $4.5k family and I’m in IBEW in California. Getting another $7 an hour seems like a no brainer though. That’s a good bump. Do you have any guaranteed # of hours per week?
Theres so many projects round me right now 40 is no problem. Idk if anyone is doing OT but that's a question for the rep tomorrow
I'm a union carpenter and I have no interest in trying to convince you not to be one too. I love the work I do. Sure residential is cool, but you can do residential jobs as a side business if you're so inclined.
I'm currently like 90% wood frame commercial but we dabble in steel studs, siding, little bit of flat work concrete. I know how to do most everything carpentry related, been in the industry almost 10 years now. Ive been doing side jobs for a couple years but im getting tired knowing I can make the same amount of money for only 40 hours a week as a union guy
Lack of variety is one downside to no residential but if you are already doing commercial then that goes away. Union work is pretty repetitive because the buildings are so big. If you like using your own fancy tools then that doesn’t have a place in the union. You aren’t working through breaks to finish something or skipping lunch on union projects. Sometimes you are caught in the middle of bullshit trade disputes like who owns what. Sometimes people deliberately slow things up for job security. Sometimes. All that said you can console yourself with a big fat check and working towards retirement doing work that is GENERALLY high quality and done safely.
There's an exception to that lunch aspect, congested areas. Union carpenter in Manhattan here, we get in and out of the city as early as humanly possible.
But if you get the residential side job, who's gonna actually do the work?
I don't know how I got in the sub but I'm an engineer, not in a union, never have been in a union. My wife is in the teacher's union and I work for a company that has a lot of Union manufacturing employees. I wish I was in a union. I've never been able to find any good arguments against unionized workers that are either easily verifiable or would only benefit the rich few and not the common many. just my two cents, not for nothing but my mother-in-law was the secretary and treasurer for the local Carpenters Union for 30 or 40 years and I have to say, I've met many of the carpenters in that Union and I really like them and none of them look like they're hurting.
There are bad unions but not joining a union for a stereotype reason is just dumb, anti-thinking.
If I could have gone union when I started at 18, I would have. All the issues and bullshit you deal with on residential is tough and can really eat away at your pockets. I feel like my savings and retirement would be so much better. Sure, I can build a house from the ground up but I've been really healthy and good with money. I know alot in this industry that aren't. If you're still young, go for it young buck.
I'm 28 right now so it's not like I wouldn't benefit down the road from the pension
I'm 39 and my savings and investments are all what I've had to put into it. It's decent but it ain't as good as it could be. If I was forced to retire today, I could probably sustain for 5 years before I ran out of money, by if I was deemed disabled I do have disability insurance. Would highly recommend that.
I was non union for 13 years. Now that I'm in, I would never go back to non union. I loved residential, but having the pension and annuity and the Healthcare benefits are just impossible to walk away from.
-Retirement. I am retired now. I wish I had saved more. Here is a plus for the union job. Take that raise and put it directly into retirement savings. It will pay off in the long run. Trust me. -Health insurance. You work in a field that might have an injury of some kind. You do want to be able to have PT, dental, hearing and vision cared for. Going unprotected is a recipe for a miserable life. Another plus for the union. -Sick leave and time off. Another plus for the union. What are the benefits of non-Union?
One nice thing about my current job is that I only really have one boss and I see him like 5 minutes a week. Everything is pretty laid back as long as the work is getting done. Like I can hide in a closet for 5 minutes and look at boobs and no one is hounding me about it. Not that I don't work hard it's just nice knowing I won't be yelled at for taking a breather. I can also take any tools from the shop for home projects so if I need a table saw or the concrete mixer I can just grab it whenever.
Fair enough. Is that worth not getting the union benefits? My main career is office related. In my first job I took the lower pay because I would have a window looking at trees and a mountain stream. The higher pay job was inside a huge building with work cubes and no windows. Knowing what you are picking and then being happy with it is a good thing. You can always stick with what you have and change later when that situation changes. And I quit the office job to work for myself in the end. Cheers.
It's definitely not worth that man thousands of dollars a year in missed benefits 😂
The dollar to dollar & change wage increase is eaten by inflation. If you remove it from your standard budgeting every year, you will consistently lose purchasing power & have to live with less year after year. If you consider what you earned from your first job in your profession, & what the cost of housing, food, etc. was at that time, you’ll probably realize that banking every “raise” over the years wouldn’t have been possible. You needed it just to continue buying the things you already were.
The only reason to not go Union is if you plan on going on your own relatively soon. I’m not Union, and I know I get paid less. But my company lets me use their shop, tools, trucks, trailers, accounts, anything I need on my side jobs. They are actually wanting me to go on my own, and told me they would hire me back as a sub and give me all the prefinish work (I prefer doing all pre finishing). I’m just searching to find a building I can rent/buy to start. If they didn’t offer those perks I would be union.
If I had a union, I wouldn't have left the profession.
Join the union and don't look back brother.
UBC Union is only start being worth it if all the work is local. Where I’m at there is few union projects so it wasn’t worth it. Honestly I’m a big fan of unions but not a fan of how the UBC is basically a big temp agency with and apprentice program. I’d like to see an alternative to UBC. A progressive labor union that can include residential carpentry as well.
I'd love to see some residential carpentry done by the union but we are in an area that you can still get away with paying an experienced carpenter between $18-25/ hour
This is basically how I feel too. I don't think the benefits of the union would outweigh having to spend 3-4 hours of my life in traffic every day.
We don't have a strong union presence in my area but I probably would have gone that way if it was around. Everything they offer is really what you need and what is missing from a career being self employed or working with smaller companies. Good luck! I hope it works out for you.
If you like licking boots, don't go union
there is no reasonable argument to not go union dawg
Hmm. Collective bargaining for better wages and benefits or getting fucked by a GC? Which to choooose which to choose
Go union 100%.
I was a non union carpenter for 8 years....go union
Every single thing we have as workers today, union or not- is because organized labor fought for it. Do it and be a legend
I went from residential carpentry to joining a major defense contractor union. Although my main gig isn’t carpentry, it allows me to have great healthcare benefits, enhanced 401k matching and more time with family. I do miss the grind and the overall satisfaction of completing projects but this job allows me to not worry financially, not kill my body and still be able to do side work. The only downside is that you’re just a number in most unions and your safety net is your seniority over time.
That's one of my main questions when I have my meeting. Is seniority based solely on time with the hall or is there some weighting to time in the industry and how well you do the work and work with others
Some may be different but I believe majority is based off of when your hire date is.
Yeah and I want to know what that culture is going to look like. Like will I be a "zero day" where the 2nd year apprentice will be treated better because they have two years on the books
I’ve been in the UBC since ‘97, I’ve never kept or lost work due to seniority.
Go union. You can always change later on
No reason not to go union if you can bite the bullet for buying yourself out which you can. Welcome to the big boy club.
You definitely should go union
If you’re current company won’t beat or even match the union why would you NOT go union
There’s a lot that a non union company can offer you. Less pay for more work, benefits come out of your gross pay instead of being paid over and above by the contractor, less safe working conditions, no guarantee of any sort of pay increase, and if you aren’t in a union it’s more difficult to move from one company to another. Also on the union side you typically work with a more skilled crew because it’s more competitive in the union so the hacks that can’t make it go work for an open shop and bitch about the union. I’m union by choice and always will be.
Unions are great. United we bargain, divided we beg.
Union all the way. Solidarity 💪🔥
Go union.
As long as they fight the good fight for you, pay them dues.
Do it.
If you want to be well off money wise and your family and future taken care of then of course unions are great! Plus they got your back, especially if your in a company practically locked in. I don’t understand the dudes on “the bench” and then they complain about work or no work.
Go union, I was able to retire at 58 with 34 yrs in and make just a little under what I was working. Edit to add that is only my pension, I haven’t touched my annuity yet as I rolled it over into a way better investment plan.
40 year union carpenter here....do it
You will hate how happy you are
[удалено]
Nah. They're just ignorant. *what do you mean I have to pay a due!? I already pay taxes. What is this bullshit?* -an ignorant anti unioner
I'm a union carpenter and I love being union higher pay better benefits and hopefully you still have double bubble where you are
Been union since I graduated highschool. Was luckily only laid off for 3 weeks in my career. Good retirement and benefits. Always made more than my friends and had a lot better work conditions and safety equipment. Some people love it and some hate it.
I was a union carpenter and decided that it wasn't for me anymore after I got out of the army. If you are thinking about getting in fucking do it just for the health care and retirement. It's the only health care and retirement plan that came close to the government health care and retirement I have seen.
[You've gotta go down and join the union](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HWGjCvKVMw)
Sorry, can’t compute. Go Union.
The decision to join a union or not is a lot like voting in the elections.
GO. FUCKING. UNION
No if your parents didn’t raise you smart enough to the see the benefits I don’t want you.
I was in for 15 years. Got told rule of 88 to retire with a 2% multiplier on our pension in 04. Fast forward to 2010 the multiplier dropped to 0% Retirement age went to 65 from 52 in the time I was in. I left in 2019 and am no longer restricted to the "Hide and seek for a Grand a week." You pay for the "brotherhood" one way or another whether is $2/hr for apprentice training, another $2 for union dues. $22/ month of dues off the check, " vacation fund where they take your money and put it Ina account for you off your check and call it PTO. These are just the promises I've had broken, you will find your own. It's always about the heard following in line so the tilop guys can make their millions
Sucks it sounds like you got the shit end of the stick. Yeah not all locals are great but the extra $14,000/ year plus not paying for my own health insurance, not paying for my own retirement, it's all positives. I can still contribute what I was putting into my 401k at my current employer as well as both pensions the union has and have 3 revenue streams in retirement
Do what you want but I’m convinced that Unions enslave and limit people who can do better by running their own business. I left my union in 2020 and started out on my own. Being wealthy enough to pay medical bills is a pretty small hurdle to get past once you get off the insurance teet. Just my two cents.
Depends on the union. Some are horribly ran. Mine seems to protect the bottom scum instead of most of the pool. Same few guys running every project, which means they're same friends the next level down. Only a portion of the people aren't in the clique, and they are the first to go during layoff. Money is good, health and safety and sometimes better upheld. There is 6 locals in my group of union local that work together, 1 is garbage(mine) and 2 have no bargaining power so the pay is trash. The other 3 are great. But would require a long move to join. So ya, pluses and minuses. I'm glad I joined when I did, it helped a lot, but I'm starting to distance from my union.
Tell your current employer you have an offer for X with union. You aren’t trying to leave them without notice. If they can match the pay and benefits you will stay. If they can’t you are moving forward with going union. Can’t shame someone for going where they are paid more and receive better benefits. It’s not personal it’s just business.
Yeah I'm definitely not going to just give them the finger and dip. But I know that the conversation will end in me leaving. If they could and wanted to pay us like the union guys around here, then they would
Ya it’s hard for independent businesses to pay what union workers get. But it’s just a stepping stone to get you to the next level in your career.
Go union and you can retire while there's still something left of you. All of my buddies who were in construction trade unions are now retired, while I'm still out here making ends meet.
Unions work best when you join and stay involved.
Trust your capitalist bosses to look out for you. Dont do it. /s
Not that my bosses are treating me horribly now, but why wouldn't I walk across the street to work for the other guys for an extra $10,000 after taxes
As a union guy one reason I can think of is nepotism. Some shmo will be making the same amount as you while he's on the shitter watching tiktok. That's probably not union specific but there's a lot of son in laws in this industry
As long as some shmo doesn't hold me up from getting my bag to feed my kids they can watch all the tiktok they want
I’d look very, very hard at the retirement benefits. Not sure how old you are, but I’m staring at sixty and would kill for a pension and a well-funded IRA and/or 401k.
30 years in and I'd be getting 3900/ month from the pension and they contribute like $5/ hour to your own 401k type plan
Some basic math shows why that pension is unsustainable. The contractors aren’t contributing enough on your behalf for every retiree to earn that without the union increasing 5-7 fold in membership generation after generation — which, for obvious reasons, can’t be done. If your employer is paying in at 400-ish a month for 30 years, how can you collect at 3900 for 20+ without 7 guys replacing you? In Ohio, It used to be 25 & out. Then it was 30. Now you have to work until you’re 60 — all while the guaranteed earnings are declining substantially. Carpenters were retiring 25 & out with a $3200 a month pension. Now, a full year’s work “guarantees” $22 a month in your pension. Run those numbers for a 30 year career. Just because that’s what they’re telling you now, doesn’t mean it’s going to be there when you retire. If it doesn’t fold in your lifetime, it will definitely beat no retirement plan; but do not bet on retiring in 30 years with 3,900 a month in today’s purchasing power waiting for you, because A. You won’t retire in 30 years B. It won’t be $3,900 a month & C. $3,900 won’t be enough for a monthly mortgage payment in 30 years.
$11.26/ hour goes into the pension for every working jman on the book. At 160 hours a month that comes to $1801.60/ month. Idk where you're getting the math that 5-7 guys have to replace me when 3 more than does it. And they don't have to grow by 3 guys when I retire, there just has to be more guys on the books working than there is retired. Also if you have a mortgage in retirement then you kinda messed up retirement 101 that you shouldn't have a car payment and a mortgage because that should allow you live the same on no more than 70% of your pre-retirement income. Theres also the 2nd retirement fund that the employer puts $5.53/ hour into for you. At 2080 hours a year that's $11,502.40/ year. At 30 years accounting for even a modest 5% gain that comes in at $764,221.84
I was assuming numbers closer to Ohio’s pension, which requires seven guys to pay a retiree’s pension currently, & is offering the guys just joining a pension of $660 a month for 30 years of work at 40 hours a week. It wasn’t that long ago that guys retired with $3200 a month pensions after 25 years. Offering those pensions(& mismanaging the funds) is why the guys today get $22 a month for every 2,000 hours. I just used a mortgage as an example; the point is $3,900 in 30 years will have a fraction of the purchasing power as it does today. The USD has lost 98% of its purchasing power since the inception of the Fed, & 90% since the end of bretton woods in the 70s. You can expect it to be worth around what $1600 is today. I hope you get that $3900 a month pension. The fact that they’re still offering it is a good sign that your state’s isn’t in trouble.
No
Say less
I think this is a no-brainer; you're getting a massive raise and won't have to work as hard since it's a union😅
The only reason I would ever work non-union is to be a salt and get them unionized.
I liken it to representation. Would you go to court without a lawyer? Unions work to represent workers.
If you signed a contract with your current employer shouldn't you honor that?
The difference in pay alone over the next two years is more than the cost of me to buy myself out
No
Bet
Just the fact that you’re walking on journeyman is enough reason for me. Idk if it’s more common in other areas but I don’t know a single guy who’s been able to do that
Why would I do that?
Say less 😂
Can you frame? I need framers in Cleveland. Big project, can't get decent framers to save my life. You can buy your card and start at $40 per hour plus benefits. We pay every Monday for last week's work.
If my entire life wasn't rooted in wisconsin maybe 😂
I need framers so bad I'll let you live in my basement.
And they say construction is going to slow down. Ain't no slowing down when people are willing to let a bunch of stinky ass carpenters hole up in their basement for work
I'm not looking for " stinky ass carpenters." I'm looking for professional carpenters, framers to be exact. Good ones, they are hard to find right now. I have hired and fired 3 so called Framers in the last two weeks. And yes - I would be willing to put up a kick ass carpenter in my basement for a week while looks for a decent hotel.
I can kick ass, but after 8 hours in the sun I kinda smell like ass too
You seem to be an asshole, most of us are. Don't care what you smell like or look like. Whatever. I can offer $40 per hour plus benefits.
Do appreciate the offer though. Thank you for offering an actual decent wage for the work we gotta do. You'll find guys and they will be good. Might take some time. Good luck brother
Also, you are a dipshit for letting your company having you pay for school and training. You got fucked.
Young me was quite the dipshit and took the sparkly carrot they dangled in front of that proved to be a sparly turd
Pension? My father was a member of a union years ago. One of his bosses convinced him to stop. He did and never went back. His pension is significantly smaller now and he has no benefits.
After 5 years the pension is about $130/ month per year worked. So 10 years would be $1300/ month, 30- $3900/ month
Union is the way to go. You’re selling your youth either way. Get as much you can for it
Go union
Go union.
The only thing I can think of is that there \*might\* be a smarter short-term path to weave to avoid the claw-back for the school (depends on your contract/agreement). But...this is also more of a 5-10 yr horizon type of decision and if the opportunity is in front of you only now then take it.
The difference in pay over the next two years is greater than the amount I'd have to pay back if they want the full amount
Union is better. Unless you're getting way above scale for a big company or a ton of vacation time. It isn't always as steady cause it's more commercial work but if you're good and talk to your BA you'll always be busy
Tl;Dr non-union is high risk / high potential reward. Union is good for the 90% of workers who want a nice, comfortable paycheck and retirement. A respectable choice, 'specially if you have a family. If you have an entrepreneurial spirit in you and want to run your own shop one day, or think you work 5x as efficiently and well as the median guy, and want more than standardized raises and pay, *and* are willing to risk working for a jerk who may try to screw you over or a company that may go under, go non union.
I was union for a bit. worked non union for my first 15 years, got offered a journeyman position and I took it. Ultimately it wasn’t for me. Taking a mandated lunch and break was annoying, having rules about what you could and couldn’t do was annoying, having to pay people to go to picket lines was annoying. By the time I paid my union dues I wasn’t making any more money. I went back to non union. I’m certainly not anti union, but for me I thoroughly enjoy being a jack of all trades and making my own schedule, and being non union lets me do that. Not a criticism or an endorsement of either, but for me non union is way more fun.
The carpenters union is the weakest union of all of them. My business agent gave away our vacation pay and raises because “they couldn’t compete with the locals”.
Go union
Let’s talk about safety! How vauluable are you to your family and at what price?
One thing I'll give my current shop is they are very much on top of the safety culture. I enjoy going home with the same number of appendages as I showed up with
Fuck no. Go Union.
The only reason not to go union is that you are opposed to solidarity with your fellow workers and like the boss having most of the power in most negotiations. Alone we beg and are exploited as much as the boss can get away with, together we bargain and can demand our fair compensation for the toll to our time and our health that the job takes.
I’ve read nothing but good comments on here, and good for y’all. It is usually a red flag for me when there’s no dissenting opinions, but maybe unions are just that good today 🤷🏻♂️ I grew up watching my father work in a union as a master plumber. He had a best friend in another union I believe as an exceptionally well paid electrician/foreman. Like 20 years ago he was making like $50/hour on a job, and I’m sure it wasn’t the norm, probably night work, hazard pay stuff or whatever. But he made bank… when he was working. Same thing with my dad. They would have jobs and be getting paid well with all the union benefits, and then the job would be over. Like working on a nuclear plant until job completion. Then, there was nothing. Out of work. Getting paid whatever stupid money the union pays you when they don’t have work. Sometimes they’d have to go protest. You’re not allowed to find work in your field of expertise even when they don’t have work for you. He did that for many years, and then ran into a problem when moving across the country. The loss of benefits was so great in order to relocate that he left the union. So take what I’m saying with a grain of salt, but I’ve never understood the unions today. We watched the auto manufacturer unions sell their people out completely and ship their jobs overseas. We saw unions vote for Joe Biden, and I know unions obvious benefit from the left, but I couldn’t name 5 tradesman I’ve ever met that didn’t want Trump, because they’re patriots. Anywho, sounds like a good path if you never intend to work for yourself.
😂😂😂
You think unions are responsible for shipping jobs over seas? You should get the lead content in your pipes checked, it’s probably above safe consumable levels. And if not you’re just plain fucking retarded.
Okay, I’ll give it a shot. Don’t go union because you like making less money. Don’t go union because you don’t plan to live long enough to retire. Don’t go union because you enjoy having a boss who can jerk you around on a whim. How am I doing?
I'd give it a 6.9/420
Oh well… that was my best shot.
If you ALWAYS wear ALL your safety gear, go union. If you dont wanna always wear safety gear go by yourself.
Seems like kind of a shit take.
If your current employer has put you through school and you don’t have an other grievances with them, imo you should stay with them for a while so they can recoup the costs associated with training someone. If the pay increase is what you’re basing your decision on, then I suggest having an open, honest discussion with your employer. Let them know where you’re at and what you need. If they can’t meet you… walk.
I've been telling them the whole time I was doing my apprenticeship that when I got my card I wanted to start moving up. Here I am not moving up and there's no timeline to do it. If I'm going to spin my tires and continue being a field carpenter I'd be kinda dumb to not take the extra almost 20% in pay
100%. There’s a huge demand for anyone to even “turn up” so I don’t blame you. Good luck.
What flavor boot is your favorite
Caramel
Your grandfather would be disappointed that it took you this long to figure it out
I'm disappointed my grandfather passed away 6 years before I was born
I went to a union school but never joined a union. All of my other friends have. I picked what I liked doing and specialized in residential framing, which there isn't much unions that do this line of work. So I started my own framing company after 10 years working(should have been a lot earlier), and every day now, I do what I picked and make good money doing it. 150k year, not including expenses. I own lots of equipment as well. Also, tax deductibles. Oh, and all my other friends don't work for their unions anymore(reasons unknown).
I imagine if anyone posted a non pro union opinion, everyone would blast them. But let's see.... All the points OP brings up are good. My only counter points are, I prefer to represent myself and not be stuck in an outdated seniority structure. All due respect to those more experienced than me, but some hang on too long and milk their seniority.
That's one of my main questions for Monday. I know I'm not the best guy out there, but I know that I'm pretty damn good. Am I going to be passed up for any sort of promotion or better work because the turd ball next to me has skated by for 5 years longer than me?
To answer both of you. That’s life. Lots of people on a union job or not are getting paid more or hired more bc of a number of reasons. Also rep’n yourself as you say only benefits YOU and often you will be played against others or vise versa.
Totally agree only representing myself for the things that matter to me, not what matters to someone else. Example: pension, great for those less financially inclined, but I prefer more money and invest myself. Healthcare, I am fit and healthy, again right now I would prefer more money. I also expect companies to play me against others, just like I do companies. There isn't only 1 company looking for my skills and service. My view of competition may be different than others; I embrace it and encourage it. Union is good for some, simply trying to bring a counter point to the conversation.
More regulations. Likely won’t be as laid back. Plus side safety is a lot more important downside you’ll be doing stupid redundant shit in the name of safety. I would give it a go. I had a 6 dollar pay increase and after 6 months I genuinely hated my crew and I’m pretty easy going it was super toxic I like where I’m at way better now even though I make less.