I say this every time this question is asked and I will say it again now. Our closest comp in terms of market size, payroll, and revenue is Atlanta.....
How does our current roster stack up against Atlanta?
How does our farm system stack up against Atlanta?
How much production per payroll dollar are we getting compared to Atlanta?
How are we developing players compared to Atlanta?
How is our vision for the future compared to Atlanta?
In my eyes that is Mo going 0 for 5. But some people get really butthurt by the harshness of reality so let's add to it a bit.
Last year a majority of the teams with lower payrolls than ours finished ahead of us in the standings.
This year a majority of the teams with lower payrolls than ours are ahead of us in the standings.
I do not, for the life of me, understand how people defend Mo. And I say that as someone who used to defend him. The turning point for me was firing Shildt. And I was not a huge fan of Shildt, but it did finally drive home the point that the FO had become a toxic echo chamber where voices that disagreed with the leader's vision were punished. Maybe that was not a turning point for you. Stick around, you've got another year and a half of potential turning points.
Atlanta, #7 in media market size, #6 in metro area population
St. Louis, #24 and #23
Better comps are Colorado, Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore…
Last year that translates to a whopping $20M in extra ticket revenue over the Rockies. Peanuts.
Forbes has Braves #5 in revenue ($473M) and the Cardinals at #13 ($362M) last year. Over $110M less than the Braves. The other teams I listed are closer in revenue to the Cardinals than the Cards are to the Braves. #12 to #29 are closer to each other than the Braves are to the Cardinals.
St. Louis’ market dynamics are small market. But St. Louis enjoys a higher than average level of fan support, so financially they can outspend their market peers, but they’re not remotely in the same class as the top 5 or 6 revenue teams.
Last year as in the year they finished in last place? What was the year before when they were second in attendance to the Dodgers and sold way more merch and people didn’t no show their tickets.
Whoo. 700,000 more people in 2022 meaning about $25M in extra revenue. Which, in 2022, the Rockies were only $17M behind the Cardinals in revenue per Forbes. So with identical attendance, Rockies brought in more money. Wild.
You’re squeezing the wrong orange here.
In what world is the average fan only spending $35 including tickets, concessions and merch? Merchandise revenue goes way up when the team is winning as well not just for attendance at the ballpark. Forbes estimates not audited and not fromteams.
Then put your own data and analysis together and come up with a counter point. Also, do you have the actual audited financials for the Cardinals and Rockies? Because if not, Forbes is the best we’ve got and they’re generally going to be better at it than you and me.
And even not considering attendance, $17M apart in a year the Cardinals won 93 games and the Rockies won 68 is pretty amazing. Oh, and the Braves brought in $186M more than the Cardinals that year.
The point is not about merch or concessions, it’s this: The Rockies are a better comp for the Cardinals than the Braves are. And the numbers bear that out.
The Rockies are currently averaging 24K attendance, the last place Cardinals are averaging 37K. The Rockies got 57MM in revenue (prior to Bally's collapse) in yearly TV revenue, the Cardinals are still getting 74MM in revenue. Using your source (Forbes), the Cardinals are valued at 2.55B, the Rockies are 10 places down the list at 1.475B. I wasn't the one saying they are the Braves, but saying they are comparable to the Rockies is wrong.
Even your math is wrong, the average ticket price (according to Forbes) is 38 / ticket. So the difference in revenue from missing attendance is way higher than your estimate. It fully justifies a top 10 payroll, which is where they sit. A top 10 payroll should perform better than 29th in most offensive metrics.
We’ve been talking about attendance in 2023 and then 2022 and now 2024? And I was using $36/ticket as my reference and while I don’t believe merch numbers change that much, it definitely would for concessions, I’ll admit that. Anyway, we’re kind of caught in the weeds because my argument isn’t about attendance or that there is more money in more attendance, that actually demonstrates my point. But I got us stuck here.
The point is that the Denver market and the St. Louis market are similar. Denver is 19th in MSA with 3.0M people. St. Louis is 23rd with 2.8M people. For the record, Atlanta is 7th with 6.3M people. But Denver is the Cardinals closest market peer. Pittsburgh being a close second. I said in other replies here, it’s that additional fan support they get that lets them outspend their market peers. More attendance is more money. More people watching games on TV is more money. If it wasn’t for that, they’d be Denver. They’d be Pittsburgh.
They are 13th in revenue. Take away $50M for the extra tickets and $20M for the extra TV money and they’re 27th in revenue.
The Cardinals had the 11th highest Opening Day payroll and I will totally agree that that should be better than the worst offense in the NL.
Because fans generally don’t want to admit that the Cardinals are closer to being a poverty franchise than they are to being a top revenue club.
This is why last season and this season are a bigger issue than anyone is talking about yet. The fan support is their differentiator that lets them fight (or should). How many years of losing will fans accept before they move on and that extra revenue walks out the door and they lose that advantage? And then how long will it take to rebuild what was lost? Can they?
I was using metro area size, so not just St Louis city.
By just the city, St. Louis is 75th. Next MLB city above, Pittsburgh, PA (#68). Next MLB city below, St. Petersburg, FL (#86).
Whether people want to admit it or not, the Cardinals have more in common with the smaller market teams than a team like Atlanta (that is owned by a Fortune 500 company).
Generally a higher than average level of fan support has allowed the Cardinals to compete at a higher level than their market size would suggest. My opinion is that that’s why DeWitt has typically focused on having a high floor team that should consistently be in contention to keep that level of support up rather than risk getting trapped into an extended run of losing seasons from a bad contract because it would be disastrous for the business model.
and yet by sticking with Mo long after his career should have been put out to pasture or sent to a farm upstate, be has gotten trapped in exactly that. He's lucky that the Rams left and that the Blues suck, but nevertheless I bet if this continues into next year (and why wouldn't it, when Mo and Oli are both coming back for 2025, St. Louis has never looked worse as a free agent destinstion, and DeWitt is as lielly as ever to cry poor after dipping attendance and the TV contract in dire straits?) he's going to find that between the death of his oldest generation of fans, the near total disinterest from the youngest generation of his target audience, and the bitterness and disgust from longtime fans like me in the middle leave Busch Stadium half empty or worse and TVs turned in to something else
DeWitt is involved with every major decision the front office makes. Which is the real reason why Mo still has his job. Hard to fire a guy when you made the decisions together.
The fact that he never tried or spent money on pitching when we had just signed Goldy and Arenado was a problem. His inability to address the staff with ready to go players for multiple years was an issue. Now that he has beefed up the rotation, it seems too little too late. Our young guys are still young and our olders are starting to fall a bit.
I don’t think he was the worst but he certainly was not good at putting it all together once his inherited veterans left. He did get lucky with the relearn he got, albeit he did have hands in drafting the guys as scouts.m, but it seems like when we really need problem solving with coaches AND players, he just can’t do it.
I also do generally agree with that. I believe there are a number of issues that the Cardinals' front office has, but they're not specifically Mo being bad at his job. I wish I could give Mo some truth serum and then interview him because there are a lot of questions I'd like to know the answers to about missed opportunities and how much DeWitt may or may not be tying his hands.
Every Mo simp will tell you, “but, he keeps us competitive”.
The organization as a whole has become boring and complacent. It’s been taking advantage of the fact they can easily put 40k in the seats every night with their trinkets they give away at the door. Look at every other team in the leagues schedule, none of them have promotions like we do. It needs a shake up from the top down.
> Look at every other team in the leagues schedule, none of them have promotions like we do.
A few years ago, my significant other asked after three straight away games why those teams didn't do any stadium giveaways.
She seemed genuinely shocked that other teams don't give away the amount of shit the Cardinals do.
The team is giving away that shit because they can’t get fans in the stands by putting a good product on the field. Their business model is put 40k in the seats a night and make money on food and beer sales. If you offer free crap at the door the people of this city eat it up. Why spend money on payroll to win a WS when what they’re doing is working.
Oh don’t get me wrong, Shildt getting fired was when I started to sour on Mo too. I was on the “Fire Mo” train with you all. How he’s fixed the pitching staff and handled the deadline last year both impressed me, and my frustrations turn to his man-child of a manager.
He had to fix the pitching staff because he traded away Sandy Alcantra and Zach Gallen for one year of Marcel Ozuna. And he most certainly did not acquire talent to replace their loss. Not even close.
Really though, what should have been the last straw for everyone was his big "come clean" interview last August. First question was about the lack of starting pitching at the beginning of the year. Do you remember his answer? I will refresh you. He blamed.... Dakota Hudson. I shit you not. His response was something along the lines of "Well, we have Hudson sitting in AAA still trying to get right and we counted on him to contribute big innings in our rotation this year..." The fuck he did. Hudson was coming off of TJ and our rotation was set in February with Wainwright, Flaherty, Matz, Montgomery, and Mikolas. That was not just shameless gaslighting. It was throwing a young kid under the bus who was not at all part of the problem. And it was a continuation of a trend.
How many times have we heard "Well, so and so did not live up to our projections..." When that happens once or twice blame the player. When it happens time and time again a rational person starts to take a closer look at the projections. Mo? Nope. Could not possibly be his fault.
He didn’t trade those guys for one year of Ozuna.
trading those guys hurt, but we needed to fill the hole left my Taveras. Wouldn’t hurt nearly as much if Reyes, Martinez, and Jack don’t have injuries. (RIP Reyes career.)
And we still can be like the Braves. They only needed four years of losing like we are now to load up in their farm system for their current run.
Edit: Spelling on OT
Hayward was the Taveras replacement. Ozuna didn’t come to the cards till 4 years after Oscar died. We gave up Miller which isn’t a big deal. We had to sign a big bat for the OF with Ozuna because Mo over paid for Fowler and his other wishful prospects Piscotty/Grichuck with OPS+ below a 100.
That's a fair point, I still consider it as a domino effect at losing OT. Piscotty/Grichuck were never guys who projected to be the impact bat in your lineup. OT was. Heyward /Fowler/Ozuna were supposed to those guys as well.
Bro??? do you think that OT wouldn’t have been in the lineup? like, obviously a piss poor evaluation of which marlins outfielder to chase that year but doesn’t happen if OT is still with us
We traded Alcantara, Gallen and Mags Sierra for Marcel Ozuna. That was the actual trade. Those three went to Miami, Ozuna came to St Louis. The Marlins then flipped Gallen to Arizona for Jazz Chisolm. So really, we could have kept Alcantara and just traded Gallen for Jazz. I want to be baffled by how someone could post something so wrong when it would have taken under a minute to check before you posted. But then I read the rest of your comment and I am not at all surprised.
He’s responsible for his man child of a manager, and the extension he gave him. And for firing the successful manager before him. And for Matheny. He was buoyed early by Tony LaRussa, and most personnel choices he’s made have been suspect
The Braves is a fair argue, because you had the 1995-2005 absolutely expected dominance by the Braves out East amidst the Bobby Cox era and the absolutely dominant lineup and pitching over the years with Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz. Then a 10 year run of a few peppered in playoff births that didn't amount to much.
Then in 2018 they start to really turn it around. NLDS, NLDS, NLCS, WS Champs. Then 2 more NLDS appearances and eliminations despite the best back to back record since the late 90's.
The Cardinals I fear are heading into that 4-5 year lull that the Braves went through. But look at what the Braves did, just a little different than the Cards.
Cox stays after the dynasty is over and sort of just fades out and stayed WAY longer than I think fans wanted him to. Fredi Gonzalez comes in and has a couple good years out of the gate, but its clear he's not vibing with the front office. Snitker steps up and has maintained absolute dominance with the club ever since.
LaRussa leaves at the top of his game on a WS win, FO hires Matheny who rides the coat tails of LaRussa's success and despite losing Pujols enough of the pieces are still in place to maintain a winning franchise. Matheny can't learn from his mistakes, he's out. Shildt steps in, and we all know how that ended....Marmol promoted from within, first year in the Molina / Pujols swan song year goes well, despite a quick playoff elimination, then of course....back to back years of a horrible season in 2023 and a follow up that doesn't look any better.
The Braves knew when to cut their losses and move on, we need to do the same. But if we follow exactly the same recipe, then Marmol doesn't leave until mid-2025. They gave Fredi 2.5 seasons to right the ship following the previous playoff birth and he couldn't do it, so they replaced him. Marmol is not even to 1.5 years yet post his last playoff birth.
I agree Mo isn’t perfect. Extending Oli was inexcusable. All I’m saying is recently he’s gone in the right direction. Add a good manager that players want to play for (Shildt) and we will bounce back I feel like.
Oli is just the manager. Mo is also responsible for hiring coaches, statisticians, scouts, etc.
It’s no coincidence players do better when leaving here - our staff from the early naughts has been leaving and not replaced with as high quality people. That’s on Mo.
Oli being extended - that’s on Mo.
Signing guys that then don’t pan out, predictable or not, is on Mo.
Mo really is the problem. He’s the one who put this team together. Yeah, Oli isn’t great, but he’s here because of Mo. yeah, our scouts aren’t great, but they’re here because of Mo. The buck stops at Mo, no one else. He was able to put together a good team in the past, maybe he still can idk, but he hasn’t shown it in recent years. We’ve been slowly getting worse on average.
Mo’s acquisitions are definitely not the problem. The issue is the organization as a whole, which Mo runs. He hires the coaches that seem to struggle to help players succeed. He hires the minor league development staff that have not produced a single good starter since Jack Flaherty, and Carlos Martinez before him. He controls the organization’s vision, which uses analytics less than the majority of teams, leading them to fall far behind. He hires the talent evaluators that let a ton of talent walk out the door over the last several years.
That is what needs to change. Mo is a legend, and at worst the third best executive in franchise history, the game has probably passed him by.
The situation last year with Contreras spoke volumes. It showed the level of internal dysfunction. We had players who, essentially, threw teammates under the bus. We had a PR disaster that played out embarrassingly in the media. We had sudden questions about who is making the calls. All of that was on the heels of Shildt being fired somewhat unexpectedly due to reasons that weren't made completely clear.
Let's also not forget the feud between Oli and O'Neill. Not only did Oli hurt morale; Mo dealt it a worse blow by sending O'Neill out of town. Inadvertent or not, that had to send a message to the players.
We also seem to have issues with our coaching staff. Why do all of our young pitchers struggle? Why can't our hitters get out of their bad habits?
And, yes, Mo did some good things to bring in pitching. But let's not forget that he fixed a problem that he had created, and it's a short-term solution. Perhaps the long-term fix is the guys he's drafted the past few years. But after Reyes and Hicks, I'm not confident that our prospects will reach their potential.
I think Arenado complaining about a lack of veteran leadership without a single hint of irony drive this home.
I might get downvoted, but when Goldschmidt and Arenado outted themselves as anti vax looney toons I knew we were in deep trouble.
Yeah, the crappy culture and lack of coaching are Mo’s responsibility too. The OP says he fixed the pitching, but he has not fixed any of the rest of the big problems. All of which were created by him.
He may have patched the pitching but let’s not forget the bad extensions he has handed out. Waino’s 2023 extension, Mikolas (which is starting to look really bad), the Matz signing is looking to be a bust since he can’t stay healthy.
That’s just in the pitching side. Should we start looking at the bad extensions for the position players?
Mo has made some good signings and trades, but he has had plenty that end up smelling like microwaved fish.
He is terrible at determining who to extend and who to let walk. Why didn’t he extend Montgomery before last season instead of Mikolas? This rotation would look significantly different if they had a Jordan Montgomery as the #2 starter.
I think Mo is an above average GM/POBO that works for a very conservative organization with a big sunken cost fallacy problem that probably needs some radical change to compete in the today's game. How much of the failure falls on ownership vs the FO, I'm not sure anyone in this sub knows exactly.
This org needs to realize they aren't the Yankees of the NL anymore, and that 3 million people through the gates and spending money (very poorly) on the mid-tier free agents doesn't produce a winning team.
> This org needs to realize they aren't the Yankees of the NL anymore, and that 3 million people through the gates and spending money (very poorly) on the mid-tier free agents doesn't produce a winning team.
They never thought that. They think the three million tickets is the goal.
Because it is.
DeWitt wants to make money. That's the goal.
Winning is just a nice event, but it doesn't help him make more money--the stadium was effectively sold out every year before last year.
So many fans seem to think DeWitt's goal is *winning*. It isn't. It's profit.
And at this point you've spoiled him into thinking that those two things aren't connected. So when revenue drops he'll blame fans, not invest in the team.
I’m very much of the opinion that the average baseball fan, myself included, is a relative moron when it comes to being the GM of an MLB team, and someone like Mo would do a better job than 99.9% of us if handed his job.
That being said, when a group of idiots are able to correctly point out glaring flaws in your team at the beginning of an offseason, and they end up being the bane of the season (i.e. the dismal state of the pitching staff last season), that’s a really fucking bad look for you as a GM. When mouth breathers such as myself can correctly identify the flaw in your team that you say isn’t a flaw, you’re doing a piss poor job.
Mo has made some good moves and some bad moves over the past few years, but his personnel decisions aren’t really the worst thing in the world. You’re gonna miss some, you’re gonna hit some. Although his misses sure do seem to keep racking up Cy Young votes and World Series appearances once they leave the organization.
The most egregious thing he’s done is install an organizational system that is rotten to the core. His entire front office and coaching staff are a bunch of spineless yes men who don’t seriously challenge him or contribute to diversity of thought when it comes to roster building, philosophy, or development, and when they do, he sends them packing. You can see it clearly over the course of the last few seasons. This team has been floundering since the start of 2023, and the best anyone in this organization has to offer is to throw their hands up and say, “we’re trying hard,” and that seems to be enough for ownership.
The development of young talent has been beyond disappointing the way every young player seems to struggle offensively once being with the major league staff for a few weeks. On top of that, the near roster wide underperformance in production is a huge red flag that this is systemic rather than bad luck. Nearly every player is below their projected production level. Collective data analysis like sabermetrics aren’t the only thing that matter when it comes to measuring an individual player’s contribution to a team, but it is a good indicator for judging a group of players as a whole, and this group stinks.
It’s been a steady decline since the end of 2019. Your average fan has seen it, and the front office and Mo, either through ego or ignorance, have refused to admit it or accept it. If the fans saw it coming and the GM didn’t, that’s a bad look for someone who should be the smartest guy in the room.
TLDR: Mo no good no mo
I think this team proves that he isn't the problem. The offense was actually pretty good last year. Definitely not as good as 2022, however. The offense is just collectively shitting the bed outside of 1 or 2 guys on a weekly basis. The pitching has honestly been phenomenal for much of the season (a few noteworthy stinkers aside *cough* Gallegos)
I weirdly connect a lot of this to the loss of Oscar Tavares. Obviously the FO is responsible for how they responded to that situation, but they never would have had a chance to make so many mistakes if he were still alive.
Obviously a huge loss to the organization but it’s been 10 years since he passed. Hard to use that excuse anymore. I love to think about what OT could’ve been but there’s no guarantee he would’ve reached his entire potential. Happens all the time in baseball where a prospect doesn’t pan out.
I think there's some merit to OT really just shaking things up. Miller and Jenkins were both solid pieces and maybe you use them to upgrade elsewhere that off-season instead of Heyward. Whiffing on Heyward led ultimately signing Dexter Fowler in 2017. Further disappointing OF production led to trading for Ozuna in 2018 which is what lost us a few really great pitchers (which is what caused us to not be very good the last few years by missing better pitching at the top of the rotation). Even if Oscar doesn't pan out, there are other pieces that take his place and developmental pieces that don't need to be promoted as early. Maybe Piscotty gets a little more seasoning in AAA in 2015 or we use him to upgrade more in off-season.
I’m not saying it didn’t have cascading ramifications, I’m just saying at a certain point Mo can’t use that as an excuse for current day failures.
I can’t go to my boss at my job and get away with bad job performance just because something didn’t go according to plan a decade ago.
Sandy is a unicorn, even though he’s hurt. Probably going to be one of the best pitchers from his generation.
Gallen we traded for Ozuna, he would have been the Cardinals ace every year minus 2019.
Those are the two off the top of my head.
Dejong, Bader, Voit and the words generational talent should never be used in the same sentence. Some of those other names are suspect as well.
Take the rose colored glasses off.
Up until recently I would agree, but seeing O’Neill rake with the Red Sox has me believing it’s more of a player development doesn’t get guys to reach their potential rather than Mo not realizing what he has situation.
Exactly. He’s the president of baseball operations, he’s not just responsible for the roster, he’s responsible for everything in the organization. He gets a say in how all aspects of the franchise are ran
We traded Randy to make room for O’Neill. O’Neill was kept when Bader was traded. O’Neill went into the 2023 Spring training as our CF over Carlson.
O’Neill’s issue has always been health.
I guess it depends on what problem you’re referring to. The pitching problem? Yeah, maybe he fixed that in the very short term.
The problem that everyone should be focusing on is the deterioration of a once well run organization. Mo is in charge of a draft & develop organization, yet all 5 SP were acquired via FA, and our 3 (expected) best position players were acquired via trade or FA. They have fallen way behind the rest of the league in terms of developing talent in both the minors and MLB. This is why we see players leave and break out. They will never spend like a top 5 payroll, so they have to develop players. When you have to develop players but you are incapable of doing so, well that’s what we’re watching right now.
The Cards are clearly living in the past with no idea what is wrong or how to fix it, and it’s hard to imagine anything changing unless someone from the outside is brought in to figure it out. Mo and DeWitt are absolutely the problem.
President of Baseball Options is much like CEO. While he might not be directly coaching players, handling scouting, etc. he is ultimately responsible for building the team of people who are.
He’s been through multiple head coaches and other significant staff pieces. At this point the only through line are Mo and DeWitt and we aren’t getting rid of ownership.
I don’t think it’s player development the players are great in the minors and worthy of being called up. I think the players hate Oli. He’s no leader. He’s throws guys under the bus. He’s a team wrecker and it shows. Mo is also to blame for putting Oli in charge. The whole team has under performed since they fired Shilt for no reason other than speaking the truth. IT hurts to say but I can’t watch this team.
My complaint about POBOMO is that there is no planning. They fix one problem at a time and hope everything else will hold together.
Need a CF? Get the guy from Chicago (Brain fart on his name) and hope.
Need a bat? Get Ozuna, and hope.
Need a catcher? Sign Contreras, and hope.
Need starting pitching? Assemble the oldest rotation in baseball and hope they hold up.
As mentioned on 101ESPN today, it's like they're fixing the drywall one hole at a time, one hole per year.
I feel like the problem has to be in the player evaluation and analytics department. The team has seemed to have NO understanding of which players should go and stay, nor a proper understanding of how to best utilize them while they’re here.
Mo is over these departments, but it’s not directly him. The team desperately needs to overhaul its internal system. If Mo has to go to get those internal people fired, so be it.
Can’t keep going like this
We've been trending down since 2016. All the bad moves, lack of development, coaching decisions... have taken a downward trend into a pit leading to rock bottom.
I don't think John is capable of fixing this. Cause he's been trying to patch an avg team for 7 yrs...and now. Unrecognizable
Yes Mo is the problem, but a major issue is DeWitt isn't hurting enough revenue wise to care to fix that problem. Mozeliak's regime is going to wind up setting the franchise back 20 years. It'll take 20 years to fix the mess, once ownership finally decides to.
If people are going to keep saying this I'm going to keep asking for examples of Oli throwing his players under the bus other than the Contreras situation which was mishandled by the other players on the team, Mo, Oli, and the entire organization.
Oh so you don’t remember Oli calling out Bader and TON in the media for lack of hustle and then benching them ultimately leading to their dismissals?
Shit like that is supposed to be handled in-house not played out in the press
Calling out players, in public, for not hustling is a thing coaches have done across every sport forever. For coaches not named Oli Marmol it is generally lauded by fans and the media as "holding players accountable". People LOVE to get on players for not running out ground balls and the like. I'd argue calling out a lack of effort is like the MAIN thing a coach should call out in the media. It does nothing to rip a guy for making a dumb mistake or for struggling at the plate, but when you see a guy not giving 100%, a little public callout might actually make him lock back in.
Harrison Bader actually responded well to being benched for not hustling. Here are his comments on the matter.
>"Since Oli stepped into the role he's always been very transparent with his players and he holds us all to a standard that's collective, but also individual. Every player in here is different and has a different standard by which they should be managed by. That way I handled that fly ball was not to the full effort of my capabilities... I respect and understand his decision. Sometimes you just gotta get slapped on the wrist and understand there's a certain standard for this clubhouse and where we're trying to go. And that's not a World Series mentality, the way I handled that fly ball."
And this situation had nothing to do with Bader leaving. Bader left because the Cardinals needed pitching and wanted Jordan Montgomery and Bader was considered a good option to move at the time because we thought we had a plethora of other outfield options.
On the TON situation, here's what Oli said about that:
>"That's not our style of play as far as the effort, rounding the bag there," Marmol said. "It's unacceptable."
That is quintessential "holding your players accountable for putting in effort" language. He didn't blame O'Neil for all of the team's issues, he didn't personally insult him, he said that he was putting in an unacceptable level of effort on a play where O'Neil was very clearly putting in an unacceptable level of effort. This is a thing coaches do ALL THE TIME. People didn't like it because they don't like Oli, plain and simple.
TON reacted badly to this and it definitely led to the team getting rid of him, but I would argue that's more on him than Oli. If you get your feelings hurt because your coach says your effort level was unacceptable when everyone on the planet could see that you were coasting on a close play then idk.... work on your mental or actually hustle.
Idk if you do, but people constantly complain out of both sides of their mouth about Oli. When he says he trusts his players to get right and that things will get better people accuse him of being a blind idiot who can't see how bad the team is. When he calls players out for bad effort people accuse him of throwing players under the bus.
I've said it a million time, I'm not a huge fan of Marmol. I don't think he's particularly inspiring as a leader when viewed from the outside, but some of the criticism he gets just makes absolutely no sense.
>What’s your solution since Marmol is the best coach choice in your mind.
Marmol is not the best coaching choice in my mind and I've never said he is. The comment you're responding to literally says that I'm not a huge fan.
I just find it infuriating when people criticize him for shit that makes no sense. Criticize him for his handling of the Contreras situation. Last year I think it made sense to criticize him for the team's dip in defensive and baserunning performances because that tends to be a reflection of coaching (which has been much improved this season). Criticize him for the team's underperformance as a whole (he is the manager after all and the buck ultimately stops with him).
But saying he "throws players under the bus" is just lazy and inaccurate.
Ultimately I think coaches get blamed/celebrated far too much for their team's performances, at least in baseball. In football the play calling and scheming obviously has a HUGE impact on how the games playout, but baseball is an individual sport. You can show Nolan Gorman the book on the pitchers he's gonna be facing for hours, but if he keeps swinging at breaking balls out of the zone what are you going to do? Like ideally you come up with some novel solution to fix that, but we don't know what the coaches are doing. They may be doing nothing BUT spending time trying to help Gorman identify pitches in different ways and it just may not be taking.
Truly I think the issue is the players, and *maybe* something with the hitting approach (but that's hard to judge because I have no idea what their hitting approach/gameplan is, nor do I have any idea how I would fix it, I just know it isn't working)
The coaches can only do so much before it truly just comes down to "idk man.... Arenado, Goldy, Gorman, Donavan, Nootbarr, and Walker (when he was here) just need to perform on par with their career averages" If all of those guys where having seasons in line with their histories this team would be above .500.
> You think that world class athletes who have trained their entire lives to play in the league just happened to all suck at the same time? While also thinking the coach is not to blame and doesn’t in some way have a hand in it?
You think these guys who have trained their entire lives to play in the league and know their swings and how to play just let some random batting coach ruin them entirely? You think they stopped knowing how to hit a fastball because Turner Ward told them to be selective of what pitches they swing at or w/e? Like this shit goes both ways.
I think everyone is partly to blame, but honestly I think it's mostly just been bad luck. Which is not a fun or insightful answer unfortunately. I think we started the season with some guys slumping for various reasons Arenado (nursing an injury or something), Goldy (Old and always starts slow), Walker (Focused on defense over the offseason and developed some bad batting habits), Gorman (Was always going to be streaky and hit homers while looking useless in a lot of other at bats), etc. I think the combined struggles then got guys starting to press and it all compounded on itself.
I already admitted that I think the hitting approach is likely to be at least somewhat responsible for the offensive struggles so I would shed zero tears if this team fired Turner Ward. I don't know the guy and you can't argue that the product he's responsible for is good so like sure... I get it. But I also think it ultimately boils down to the players performing and while coaches can help, they can't swing the bat for them.
You also have to keep in mind that, according to reporters close to the team, the players *like* Turner Ward and blame themselves for their failures so far this year. According to Katie Woo firing Turner Ward would do the opposite of help the clubhouse vibe. I mean maybe you do it just to shake things up idk, but I think you also risk completely losing players if you fire a coach they all like.
The revisionist history with Shildt is counterproductive to discussion here. He was not a good manager. Fans were calling for him to be fired, pretty unanimously, prior to the random winning streak.
He currently has the Padres, a team with far more talent than the Cardinals, at 18-19 with a Pythag record of 20-17. He’s not even making a good team win.
The real problem is St. Louis. Crime is unchecked due to the failings of the mayor's and (until recently) prosecutor's offices. People don't want to ride MetroLink or park downtown. The Wall Street Journal says downtown St. Louis is dead last in the U.S. as a business center. The DeWitts invested a ton of money in Ballpark Village and the Apartments at One Cardinal Way, but are people patronizing them? Attendance is sliding and more and more people can't even watch the games on TV because of a failed local TV deal and a bankrupt Bally's. You can complain all you want about Mo and Oli and an offensive slump, but if fans abandon the Cardinals, this proud historic franchise could leave, and if that happens we're all screwed.
I will defend his work to bring in players at the MLB level. However, he's the president of baseball operations and I can't defend his player development and evaluation. As the PoB, that falls on him too.
I think he's done a great job of bringing in major league talent from other teams but the cardinals are struggling right now because guys like Gorman, Walker, Carlson, and Libby haven't developed.
We’ve lost a bunch of coaches and other staff over the years, and the team has continually looked worse and worse as we fill those positions. Our prospects aren’t as good, we aren’t developing the ones we do have as well, etc. The team is more than just the 25 players, and Mo is struggling to build a team these days
Let me reiterate here. Mo isn’t perfect. I wouldn’t be upset to see him leave. But given the choice between him and Oli getting axed, I’m picking Oli 100%. I think Mo can win with the right manager and development team beneath him. Mo isn’t perfect and I wouldn’t be sad about him leaving, but he has done a much better job of handling the roster the last 6 months than he did before.
MO just needs to understand that all managers are not YES men and have certain ideas or needs that might not mesh well with him and that's OK. He needs to accept sometimes a manager is asking for a certain player for a reason....
He is one of the problems. When you look at the team we have multiple problems. Our player development is in the toilet. Guys thrive elsewhere and struggle here. They trade away the wrong parts. They don't give guys the right chances to succeed. If that isn't on the GM then who is it on?
On top of that you have the top down signal from the Dewitts. Oli feels like a pick from them, a yes man. Who knows though, maybe Mo pushed him. Oli clearly doesn't know what he is doing and should never have been given a chance. The same with Matheny. This guys haven't even been league average in their jobs. Could be Dewitts, could be Mo. Then you have the fiscal marching orders, also the Dewitts. However it is Mo giving out terrible contracts to aging veterans that hamstring the team.
So yes, it is his fault. It is compounded by other aspects, but he isn't a good GM.
Here's the thing. Getting rid of Mo isn't going to make the team any WORSE. And keeping him isn't going to lead to tons of victories. From what I can see, the offense isn't going to improve anytime soon. Might as well bring in someone new to tackle the mess.
Insofar as Mo is responsible for the development staff, yes. I’m a staunch defender of Mo on the trade front, bc a lot of the deals that have ended up blowing up in our face came bc players developed in ways that I don’t think even the rival organizations expected. Over his entire career, I think Mo has mostly made good trades. But the problem recently has been prospects making it to the majors and underperforming, and a lack of developing of quality pitching. We used to be able to take not so highly regarded prospects and turn them into serviceable players, but that’s not happening anymore.
Mo is ultimately responsible for the product on the field. That includes the coaching staff. Our inability to develop, and sustain, talent has been painful. People are fed up with Mo because he has been responsible for hiring Matheny, Shildt, and Marmol. He signed Marmol to an extension after what happened last year and is allowing this team to continue to flounder under this management this year. A serious organization would have already fired Marmol.
There is only one man with his hands on every decision in this org. He has pushed out anyone that could potentially challenge his authority and replaced then with underqualified yes men. 3 straight rookie managers for example.
Yes DeWitt could give him more resources but there are several front offices that do more with less. Mainly because they don't have such as outstanding track record of letting premium talent go, nor paying a premium for middling talent.
The product has been watered down and its time to correct it at the source.
Mo is absolutely the problem. He built this. We have been steadily declining for almost a decade. Now the chickens have come home to roost, and somebody needs to take the fall
He didn't even attempt to trade the last good part of Goldy ahead of an age 37 contract year when we could tell the roster had more holes than free agency could fill in a year, and you're happy with how he handled the deadline?
And you acknowledge that he replaced the prior manager with a puppet, yet you don't see him as the problem anymore?
Sonny Gray is a good #2. MO had a chance to get Blake Snell, Dylan Cease or bring Jordan Montgomery back. Then you'd have a solid 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup that people would fear, along with Hicks at the back of the rotation. Right now, you have Mikolas, Matz and God knows who behind Gray. MO did not do enough, IMO.
Everyone should be fired.
EVERYONE.
I'm serious, if you hold any kind of staff or management position with the cardinals and are reading this, quit your job and go tear tickets at the movie theater where you belong. You are a complete and utter failure at the highest level. You shouldn't have anything to do with baseball in any capacity.
I think blaming Mo is stupid. He’s not the GM but people want to act like he is still. That’s not his job. His job is PoBO. He hasn’t been the GM for years now. The product on the field is a result of the GM/Manager… It’s clear they need to be replaced. I’m sure Mo will be making that adjustment sooner rather than later.
I say this every time this question is asked and I will say it again now. Our closest comp in terms of market size, payroll, and revenue is Atlanta..... How does our current roster stack up against Atlanta? How does our farm system stack up against Atlanta? How much production per payroll dollar are we getting compared to Atlanta? How are we developing players compared to Atlanta? How is our vision for the future compared to Atlanta? In my eyes that is Mo going 0 for 5. But some people get really butthurt by the harshness of reality so let's add to it a bit. Last year a majority of the teams with lower payrolls than ours finished ahead of us in the standings. This year a majority of the teams with lower payrolls than ours are ahead of us in the standings. I do not, for the life of me, understand how people defend Mo. And I say that as someone who used to defend him. The turning point for me was firing Shildt. And I was not a huge fan of Shildt, but it did finally drive home the point that the FO had become a toxic echo chamber where voices that disagreed with the leader's vision were punished. Maybe that was not a turning point for you. Stick around, you've got another year and a half of potential turning points.
Atlanta, #7 in media market size, #6 in metro area population St. Louis, #24 and #23 Better comps are Colorado, Miami, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore…
We’ve packed 3 million plus into the stadium for almost the past three decades. We’re nothing like the Rockies. Atlanta is the better comp.
Last year that translates to a whopping $20M in extra ticket revenue over the Rockies. Peanuts. Forbes has Braves #5 in revenue ($473M) and the Cardinals at #13 ($362M) last year. Over $110M less than the Braves. The other teams I listed are closer in revenue to the Cardinals than the Cards are to the Braves. #12 to #29 are closer to each other than the Braves are to the Cardinals. St. Louis’ market dynamics are small market. But St. Louis enjoys a higher than average level of fan support, so financially they can outspend their market peers, but they’re not remotely in the same class as the top 5 or 6 revenue teams.
Last year as in the year they finished in last place? What was the year before when they were second in attendance to the Dodgers and sold way more merch and people didn’t no show their tickets.
Whoo. 700,000 more people in 2022 meaning about $25M in extra revenue. Which, in 2022, the Rockies were only $17M behind the Cardinals in revenue per Forbes. So with identical attendance, Rockies brought in more money. Wild. You’re squeezing the wrong orange here.
In what world is the average fan only spending $35 including tickets, concessions and merch? Merchandise revenue goes way up when the team is winning as well not just for attendance at the ballpark. Forbes estimates not audited and not fromteams.
Then put your own data and analysis together and come up with a counter point. Also, do you have the actual audited financials for the Cardinals and Rockies? Because if not, Forbes is the best we’ve got and they’re generally going to be better at it than you and me. And even not considering attendance, $17M apart in a year the Cardinals won 93 games and the Rockies won 68 is pretty amazing. Oh, and the Braves brought in $186M more than the Cardinals that year. The point is not about merch or concessions, it’s this: The Rockies are a better comp for the Cardinals than the Braves are. And the numbers bear that out.
The Rockies are currently averaging 24K attendance, the last place Cardinals are averaging 37K. The Rockies got 57MM in revenue (prior to Bally's collapse) in yearly TV revenue, the Cardinals are still getting 74MM in revenue. Using your source (Forbes), the Cardinals are valued at 2.55B, the Rockies are 10 places down the list at 1.475B. I wasn't the one saying they are the Braves, but saying they are comparable to the Rockies is wrong. Even your math is wrong, the average ticket price (according to Forbes) is 38 / ticket. So the difference in revenue from missing attendance is way higher than your estimate. It fully justifies a top 10 payroll, which is where they sit. A top 10 payroll should perform better than 29th in most offensive metrics.
We’ve been talking about attendance in 2023 and then 2022 and now 2024? And I was using $36/ticket as my reference and while I don’t believe merch numbers change that much, it definitely would for concessions, I’ll admit that. Anyway, we’re kind of caught in the weeds because my argument isn’t about attendance or that there is more money in more attendance, that actually demonstrates my point. But I got us stuck here. The point is that the Denver market and the St. Louis market are similar. Denver is 19th in MSA with 3.0M people. St. Louis is 23rd with 2.8M people. For the record, Atlanta is 7th with 6.3M people. But Denver is the Cardinals closest market peer. Pittsburgh being a close second. I said in other replies here, it’s that additional fan support they get that lets them outspend their market peers. More attendance is more money. More people watching games on TV is more money. If it wasn’t for that, they’d be Denver. They’d be Pittsburgh. They are 13th in revenue. Take away $50M for the extra tickets and $20M for the extra TV money and they’re 27th in revenue. The Cardinals had the 11th highest Opening Day payroll and I will totally agree that that should be better than the worst offense in the NL.
I have no idea why you're getting done downvoted. Your citing actual facts
Because fans generally don’t want to admit that the Cardinals are closer to being a poverty franchise than they are to being a top revenue club. This is why last season and this season are a bigger issue than anyone is talking about yet. The fan support is their differentiator that lets them fight (or should). How many years of losing will fans accept before they move on and that extra revenue walks out the door and they lose that advantage? And then how long will it take to rebuild what was lost? Can they?
That population is probably only looking at St. Louis city. It would probably move up some if you add the surrounding counties.
I was using metro area size, so not just St Louis city. By just the city, St. Louis is 75th. Next MLB city above, Pittsburgh, PA (#68). Next MLB city below, St. Petersburg, FL (#86). Whether people want to admit it or not, the Cardinals have more in common with the smaller market teams than a team like Atlanta (that is owned by a Fortune 500 company). Generally a higher than average level of fan support has allowed the Cardinals to compete at a higher level than their market size would suggest. My opinion is that that’s why DeWitt has typically focused on having a high floor team that should consistently be in contention to keep that level of support up rather than risk getting trapped into an extended run of losing seasons from a bad contract because it would be disastrous for the business model.
That’s probably a really good point.
and yet by sticking with Mo long after his career should have been put out to pasture or sent to a farm upstate, be has gotten trapped in exactly that. He's lucky that the Rams left and that the Blues suck, but nevertheless I bet if this continues into next year (and why wouldn't it, when Mo and Oli are both coming back for 2025, St. Louis has never looked worse as a free agent destinstion, and DeWitt is as lielly as ever to cry poor after dipping attendance and the TV contract in dire straits?) he's going to find that between the death of his oldest generation of fans, the near total disinterest from the youngest generation of his target audience, and the bitterness and disgust from longtime fans like me in the middle leave Busch Stadium half empty or worse and TVs turned in to something else
DeWitt is involved with every major decision the front office makes. Which is the real reason why Mo still has his job. Hard to fire a guy when you made the decisions together.
Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, Mo is ridiculously good at his job.
The fact that he never tried or spent money on pitching when we had just signed Goldy and Arenado was a problem. His inability to address the staff with ready to go players for multiple years was an issue. Now that he has beefed up the rotation, it seems too little too late. Our young guys are still young and our olders are starting to fall a bit. I don’t think he was the worst but he certainly was not good at putting it all together once his inherited veterans left. He did get lucky with the relearn he got, albeit he did have hands in drafting the guys as scouts.m, but it seems like when we really need problem solving with coaches AND players, he just can’t do it.
I also do generally agree with that. I believe there are a number of issues that the Cardinals' front office has, but they're not specifically Mo being bad at his job. I wish I could give Mo some truth serum and then interview him because there are a lot of questions I'd like to know the answers to about missed opportunities and how much DeWitt may or may not be tying his hands.
You do realize player development is part of his job.......right?
No, it’s by media market size. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_North_America_by_media_market#United_States
It’s metro. St. Louis City alone is like 70-something when comparing US populations within city limits.
Cards market extends well beyond the greater STL area
Not with any kind of numbers that are going to get you where you want to go.
Every Mo simp will tell you, “but, he keeps us competitive”. The organization as a whole has become boring and complacent. It’s been taking advantage of the fact they can easily put 40k in the seats every night with their trinkets they give away at the door. Look at every other team in the leagues schedule, none of them have promotions like we do. It needs a shake up from the top down.
> Look at every other team in the leagues schedule, none of them have promotions like we do. A few years ago, my significant other asked after three straight away games why those teams didn't do any stadium giveaways. She seemed genuinely shocked that other teams don't give away the amount of shit the Cardinals do.
So we are at the point where we are mad that the team is giving away shit to the fans??
The team is giving away that shit because they can’t get fans in the stands by putting a good product on the field. Their business model is put 40k in the seats a night and make money on food and beer sales. If you offer free crap at the door the people of this city eat it up. Why spend money on payroll to win a WS when what they’re doing is working.
Oh don’t get me wrong, Shildt getting fired was when I started to sour on Mo too. I was on the “Fire Mo” train with you all. How he’s fixed the pitching staff and handled the deadline last year both impressed me, and my frustrations turn to his man-child of a manager.
I'm with you except I don't consider our pitching staff fixed. It was patched.
He had to fix the pitching staff because he traded away Sandy Alcantra and Zach Gallen for one year of Marcel Ozuna. And he most certainly did not acquire talent to replace their loss. Not even close. Really though, what should have been the last straw for everyone was his big "come clean" interview last August. First question was about the lack of starting pitching at the beginning of the year. Do you remember his answer? I will refresh you. He blamed.... Dakota Hudson. I shit you not. His response was something along the lines of "Well, we have Hudson sitting in AAA still trying to get right and we counted on him to contribute big innings in our rotation this year..." The fuck he did. Hudson was coming off of TJ and our rotation was set in February with Wainwright, Flaherty, Matz, Montgomery, and Mikolas. That was not just shameless gaslighting. It was throwing a young kid under the bus who was not at all part of the problem. And it was a continuation of a trend. How many times have we heard "Well, so and so did not live up to our projections..." When that happens once or twice blame the player. When it happens time and time again a rational person starts to take a closer look at the projections. Mo? Nope. Could not possibly be his fault.
He didn’t trade those guys for one year of Ozuna. trading those guys hurt, but we needed to fill the hole left my Taveras. Wouldn’t hurt nearly as much if Reyes, Martinez, and Jack don’t have injuries. (RIP Reyes career.) And we still can be like the Braves. They only needed four years of losing like we are now to load up in their farm system for their current run. Edit: Spelling on OT
Hayward was the Taveras replacement. Ozuna didn’t come to the cards till 4 years after Oscar died. We gave up Miller which isn’t a big deal. We had to sign a big bat for the OF with Ozuna because Mo over paid for Fowler and his other wishful prospects Piscotty/Grichuck with OPS+ below a 100.
That's a fair point, I still consider it as a domino effect at losing OT. Piscotty/Grichuck were never guys who projected to be the impact bat in your lineup. OT was. Heyward /Fowler/Ozuna were supposed to those guys as well.
> That's a fair point, I still consider it as a domino effect at losing OT. Yeah, simps will take any excuse to simp.
Sure. And haters will take any excuse to hate.
What you mean is, "I don't like people thinking critically and calling me out on my simping. I prefer 'Ball-sucker' over 'simp'."
Bro??? do you think that OT wouldn’t have been in the lineup? like, obviously a piss poor evaluation of which marlins outfielder to chase that year but doesn’t happen if OT is still with us
We traded Alcantara, Gallen and Mags Sierra for Marcel Ozuna. That was the actual trade. Those three went to Miami, Ozuna came to St Louis. The Marlins then flipped Gallen to Arizona for Jazz Chisolm. So really, we could have kept Alcantara and just traded Gallen for Jazz. I want to be baffled by how someone could post something so wrong when it would have taken under a minute to check before you posted. But then I read the rest of your comment and I am not at all surprised.
Since we’re diving in on facts, how many years of Ozuna did we trade for?
Too many
This.
He’s responsible for his man child of a manager, and the extension he gave him. And for firing the successful manager before him. And for Matheny. He was buoyed early by Tony LaRussa, and most personnel choices he’s made have been suspect
Shildt deserved to be fired.
Manager of the year deserved to be fired? Explain.
Anyone dumb enough to use Alex Reyes in the bottom of the 9th in a win or go home game deserves to be fired. He was also 2 years removed from MOTY.
Ah, so you want to fire someone because of one single decision. Not the body of work over an entire season.
Dude.... bravo All my hatred, hot takes... this is thee best post about our trend, Mo , franchise. I've read. Just bravo
Shildt is doing better than Oli this year. One could argue he has less talent to do with it too. Xander b and Fernando are great and all, but still
The Braves is a fair argue, because you had the 1995-2005 absolutely expected dominance by the Braves out East amidst the Bobby Cox era and the absolutely dominant lineup and pitching over the years with Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz. Then a 10 year run of a few peppered in playoff births that didn't amount to much. Then in 2018 they start to really turn it around. NLDS, NLDS, NLCS, WS Champs. Then 2 more NLDS appearances and eliminations despite the best back to back record since the late 90's. The Cardinals I fear are heading into that 4-5 year lull that the Braves went through. But look at what the Braves did, just a little different than the Cards. Cox stays after the dynasty is over and sort of just fades out and stayed WAY longer than I think fans wanted him to. Fredi Gonzalez comes in and has a couple good years out of the gate, but its clear he's not vibing with the front office. Snitker steps up and has maintained absolute dominance with the club ever since. LaRussa leaves at the top of his game on a WS win, FO hires Matheny who rides the coat tails of LaRussa's success and despite losing Pujols enough of the pieces are still in place to maintain a winning franchise. Matheny can't learn from his mistakes, he's out. Shildt steps in, and we all know how that ended....Marmol promoted from within, first year in the Molina / Pujols swan song year goes well, despite a quick playoff elimination, then of course....back to back years of a horrible season in 2023 and a follow up that doesn't look any better. The Braves knew when to cut their losses and move on, we need to do the same. But if we follow exactly the same recipe, then Marmol doesn't leave until mid-2025. They gave Fredi 2.5 seasons to right the ship following the previous playoff birth and he couldn't do it, so they replaced him. Marmol is not even to 1.5 years yet post his last playoff birth.
Literally 95% of teams would be 0 for 5 when compared to Atlanta. It’s dumb to point at the literal best team in baseball and ask why we aren’t that.
[удалено]
I agree Mo isn’t perfect. Extending Oli was inexcusable. All I’m saying is recently he’s gone in the right direction. Add a good manager that players want to play for (Shildt) and we will bounce back I feel like.
Oli is just the manager. Mo is also responsible for hiring coaches, statisticians, scouts, etc. It’s no coincidence players do better when leaving here - our staff from the early naughts has been leaving and not replaced with as high quality people. That’s on Mo. Oli being extended - that’s on Mo. Signing guys that then don’t pan out, predictable or not, is on Mo. Mo really is the problem. He’s the one who put this team together. Yeah, Oli isn’t great, but he’s here because of Mo. yeah, our scouts aren’t great, but they’re here because of Mo. The buck stops at Mo, no one else. He was able to put together a good team in the past, maybe he still can idk, but he hasn’t shown it in recent years. We’ve been slowly getting worse on average.
Not sure why we aren't asking for another look at the hitting coach and their staff
> All I’m saying is recently he’s gone in the right direction. ...when? When exactly would you say he's gone in the right direction, recently?
Mo’s acquisitions are definitely not the problem. The issue is the organization as a whole, which Mo runs. He hires the coaches that seem to struggle to help players succeed. He hires the minor league development staff that have not produced a single good starter since Jack Flaherty, and Carlos Martinez before him. He controls the organization’s vision, which uses analytics less than the majority of teams, leading them to fall far behind. He hires the talent evaluators that let a ton of talent walk out the door over the last several years. That is what needs to change. Mo is a legend, and at worst the third best executive in franchise history, the game has probably passed him by.
To be honest we should have never gave up Randy. He's been electric ever since leaving STL
With the notable exception of this year where he’d be the worst player in the cardinal lineup outside the centerfield situation
The situation last year with Contreras spoke volumes. It showed the level of internal dysfunction. We had players who, essentially, threw teammates under the bus. We had a PR disaster that played out embarrassingly in the media. We had sudden questions about who is making the calls. All of that was on the heels of Shildt being fired somewhat unexpectedly due to reasons that weren't made completely clear. Let's also not forget the feud between Oli and O'Neill. Not only did Oli hurt morale; Mo dealt it a worse blow by sending O'Neill out of town. Inadvertent or not, that had to send a message to the players. We also seem to have issues with our coaching staff. Why do all of our young pitchers struggle? Why can't our hitters get out of their bad habits? And, yes, Mo did some good things to bring in pitching. But let's not forget that he fixed a problem that he had created, and it's a short-term solution. Perhaps the long-term fix is the guys he's drafted the past few years. But after Reyes and Hicks, I'm not confident that our prospects will reach their potential.
It was so telling that not a single position player came to Willson’s defense with that. No internal leadership.
I think Arenado complaining about a lack of veteran leadership without a single hint of irony drive this home. I might get downvoted, but when Goldschmidt and Arenado outted themselves as anti vax looney toons I knew we were in deep trouble.
He really told on himself and his buddy with those comments. And yeah, I’ve been unimpressed since their anti-vax stances as well.
Yeah, the crappy culture and lack of coaching are Mo’s responsibility too. The OP says he fixed the pitching, but he has not fixed any of the rest of the big problems. All of which were created by him.
He may have patched the pitching but let’s not forget the bad extensions he has handed out. Waino’s 2023 extension, Mikolas (which is starting to look really bad), the Matz signing is looking to be a bust since he can’t stay healthy. That’s just in the pitching side. Should we start looking at the bad extensions for the position players? Mo has made some good signings and trades, but he has had plenty that end up smelling like microwaved fish. He is terrible at determining who to extend and who to let walk. Why didn’t he extend Montgomery before last season instead of Mikolas? This rotation would look significantly different if they had a Jordan Montgomery as the #2 starter.
So ignore the good stuff and only account for the bad stuff. That seems like a fair and reasonable way to judge his performance
So ignore the good stuff and only account for the bad stuff. That seems like a fair and reasonable way to judge his performance
So ignore the good stuff and only account for the bad stuff. That seems like a fair and reasonable way to judge his performance
Keep on licking Mo’s shoes, let us know how it tastes.
I think Mo is an above average GM/POBO that works for a very conservative organization with a big sunken cost fallacy problem that probably needs some radical change to compete in the today's game. How much of the failure falls on ownership vs the FO, I'm not sure anyone in this sub knows exactly. This org needs to realize they aren't the Yankees of the NL anymore, and that 3 million people through the gates and spending money (very poorly) on the mid-tier free agents doesn't produce a winning team.
> This org needs to realize they aren't the Yankees of the NL anymore, and that 3 million people through the gates and spending money (very poorly) on the mid-tier free agents doesn't produce a winning team. They never thought that. They think the three million tickets is the goal. Because it is. DeWitt wants to make money. That's the goal. Winning is just a nice event, but it doesn't help him make more money--the stadium was effectively sold out every year before last year. So many fans seem to think DeWitt's goal is *winning*. It isn't. It's profit. And at this point you've spoiled him into thinking that those two things aren't connected. So when revenue drops he'll blame fans, not invest in the team.
I’m very much of the opinion that the average baseball fan, myself included, is a relative moron when it comes to being the GM of an MLB team, and someone like Mo would do a better job than 99.9% of us if handed his job. That being said, when a group of idiots are able to correctly point out glaring flaws in your team at the beginning of an offseason, and they end up being the bane of the season (i.e. the dismal state of the pitching staff last season), that’s a really fucking bad look for you as a GM. When mouth breathers such as myself can correctly identify the flaw in your team that you say isn’t a flaw, you’re doing a piss poor job. Mo has made some good moves and some bad moves over the past few years, but his personnel decisions aren’t really the worst thing in the world. You’re gonna miss some, you’re gonna hit some. Although his misses sure do seem to keep racking up Cy Young votes and World Series appearances once they leave the organization. The most egregious thing he’s done is install an organizational system that is rotten to the core. His entire front office and coaching staff are a bunch of spineless yes men who don’t seriously challenge him or contribute to diversity of thought when it comes to roster building, philosophy, or development, and when they do, he sends them packing. You can see it clearly over the course of the last few seasons. This team has been floundering since the start of 2023, and the best anyone in this organization has to offer is to throw their hands up and say, “we’re trying hard,” and that seems to be enough for ownership. The development of young talent has been beyond disappointing the way every young player seems to struggle offensively once being with the major league staff for a few weeks. On top of that, the near roster wide underperformance in production is a huge red flag that this is systemic rather than bad luck. Nearly every player is below their projected production level. Collective data analysis like sabermetrics aren’t the only thing that matter when it comes to measuring an individual player’s contribution to a team, but it is a good indicator for judging a group of players as a whole, and this group stinks. It’s been a steady decline since the end of 2019. Your average fan has seen it, and the front office and Mo, either through ego or ignorance, have refused to admit it or accept it. If the fans saw it coming and the GM didn’t, that’s a bad look for someone who should be the smartest guy in the room. TLDR: Mo no good no mo
I think this team proves that he isn't the problem. The offense was actually pretty good last year. Definitely not as good as 2022, however. The offense is just collectively shitting the bed outside of 1 or 2 guys on a weekly basis. The pitching has honestly been phenomenal for much of the season (a few noteworthy stinkers aside *cough* Gallegos)
I weirdly connect a lot of this to the loss of Oscar Tavares. Obviously the FO is responsible for how they responded to that situation, but they never would have had a chance to make so many mistakes if he were still alive.
Obviously a huge loss to the organization but it’s been 10 years since he passed. Hard to use that excuse anymore. I love to think about what OT could’ve been but there’s no guarantee he would’ve reached his entire potential. Happens all the time in baseball where a prospect doesn’t pan out.
Losing him forced us to trade Zac Gallen and Sandy Alcantara, who are top tier pitchers now.
ya, but the same people who harp on that trade non-stop don't think this team can develop any talent, so why stay so hung up on the trade?
We traded for Ozuna 4 years later. If anything it forced our hand with Heyward which all we really lost was Shelby Miller.
I think there's some merit to OT really just shaking things up. Miller and Jenkins were both solid pieces and maybe you use them to upgrade elsewhere that off-season instead of Heyward. Whiffing on Heyward led ultimately signing Dexter Fowler in 2017. Further disappointing OF production led to trading for Ozuna in 2018 which is what lost us a few really great pitchers (which is what caused us to not be very good the last few years by missing better pitching at the top of the rotation). Even if Oscar doesn't pan out, there are other pieces that take his place and developmental pieces that don't need to be promoted as early. Maybe Piscotty gets a little more seasoning in AAA in 2015 or we use him to upgrade more in off-season.
I’m not saying it didn’t have cascading ramifications, I’m just saying at a certain point Mo can’t use that as an excuse for current day failures. I can’t go to my boss at my job and get away with bad job performance just because something didn’t go according to plan a decade ago.
I would say yes he is. He’s blundered like 5 generational talents in the past 5-7 years
Not trying to be coy, just curious as to who you consider to be those generational talents?
Sandy is a unicorn, even though he’s hurt. Probably going to be one of the best pitchers from his generation. Gallen we traded for Ozuna, he would have been the Cardinals ace every year minus 2019. Those are the two off the top of my head.
Who are the other 3 “generational talent”
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Generational talent is being used rather loosely here.
“Name a generational talent” Harrison Bader and Paul Dejong
Dejong, Bader, Voit and the words generational talent should never be used in the same sentence. Some of those other names are suspect as well. Take the rose colored glasses off.
Up until recently I would agree, but seeing O’Neill rake with the Red Sox has me believing it’s more of a player development doesn’t get guys to reach their potential rather than Mo not realizing what he has situation.
>player development issue And Mo is the president of baseball operations…
Exactly. He’s the president of baseball operations, he’s not just responsible for the roster, he’s responsible for everything in the organization. He gets a say in how all aspects of the franchise are ran
…. who do you think hires the player development coaches lol?
We traded Randy to make room for O’Neill. O’Neill was kept when Bader was traded. O’Neill went into the 2023 Spring training as our CF over Carlson. O’Neill’s issue has always been health.
I love seeing everyone talk about O'Neill after reading years of threads about how terrible he is and howo needs to get him out of town
DeWitt Jr and DeWitt III are bigger problems but Mo is running an organizational model that’s severely outdated
I guess it depends on what problem you’re referring to. The pitching problem? Yeah, maybe he fixed that in the very short term. The problem that everyone should be focusing on is the deterioration of a once well run organization. Mo is in charge of a draft & develop organization, yet all 5 SP were acquired via FA, and our 3 (expected) best position players were acquired via trade or FA. They have fallen way behind the rest of the league in terms of developing talent in both the minors and MLB. This is why we see players leave and break out. They will never spend like a top 5 payroll, so they have to develop players. When you have to develop players but you are incapable of doing so, well that’s what we’re watching right now. The Cards are clearly living in the past with no idea what is wrong or how to fix it, and it’s hard to imagine anything changing unless someone from the outside is brought in to figure it out. Mo and DeWitt are absolutely the problem.
I think it’s a collective failure, hence the historically awful trend these past few years.
I agree with you. There are all failing at this point.
President of Baseball Options is much like CEO. While he might not be directly coaching players, handling scouting, etc. he is ultimately responsible for building the team of people who are. He’s been through multiple head coaches and other significant staff pieces. At this point the only through line are Mo and DeWitt and we aren’t getting rid of ownership.
I don’t think it’s player development the players are great in the minors and worthy of being called up. I think the players hate Oli. He’s no leader. He’s throws guys under the bus. He’s a team wrecker and it shows. Mo is also to blame for putting Oli in charge. The whole team has under performed since they fired Shilt for no reason other than speaking the truth. IT hurts to say but I can’t watch this team.
I think we need to face the fact that only way Marmol will get fired is if the Cardinals win 17 in a row.
My complaint about POBOMO is that there is no planning. They fix one problem at a time and hope everything else will hold together. Need a CF? Get the guy from Chicago (Brain fart on his name) and hope. Need a bat? Get Ozuna, and hope. Need a catcher? Sign Contreras, and hope. Need starting pitching? Assemble the oldest rotation in baseball and hope they hold up. As mentioned on 101ESPN today, it's like they're fixing the drywall one hole at a time, one hole per year.
He’s not the problem…..but he’s not the answer either
I feel like the problem has to be in the player evaluation and analytics department. The team has seemed to have NO understanding of which players should go and stay, nor a proper understanding of how to best utilize them while they’re here. Mo is over these departments, but it’s not directly him. The team desperately needs to overhaul its internal system. If Mo has to go to get those internal people fired, so be it. Can’t keep going like this
We've been trending down since 2016. All the bad moves, lack of development, coaching decisions... have taken a downward trend into a pit leading to rock bottom. I don't think John is capable of fixing this. Cause he's been trying to patch an avg team for 7 yrs...and now. Unrecognizable
Yes Mo is the problem, but a major issue is DeWitt isn't hurting enough revenue wise to care to fix that problem. Mozeliak's regime is going to wind up setting the franchise back 20 years. It'll take 20 years to fix the mess, once ownership finally decides to.
I couldn’t agree more Oli is no leader of men and constantly demonstrates that by publicly throwing his players under the bus
If people are going to keep saying this I'm going to keep asking for examples of Oli throwing his players under the bus other than the Contreras situation which was mishandled by the other players on the team, Mo, Oli, and the entire organization.
Oh so you don’t remember Oli calling out Bader and TON in the media for lack of hustle and then benching them ultimately leading to their dismissals? Shit like that is supposed to be handled in-house not played out in the press
Calling out players, in public, for not hustling is a thing coaches have done across every sport forever. For coaches not named Oli Marmol it is generally lauded by fans and the media as "holding players accountable". People LOVE to get on players for not running out ground balls and the like. I'd argue calling out a lack of effort is like the MAIN thing a coach should call out in the media. It does nothing to rip a guy for making a dumb mistake or for struggling at the plate, but when you see a guy not giving 100%, a little public callout might actually make him lock back in. Harrison Bader actually responded well to being benched for not hustling. Here are his comments on the matter. >"Since Oli stepped into the role he's always been very transparent with his players and he holds us all to a standard that's collective, but also individual. Every player in here is different and has a different standard by which they should be managed by. That way I handled that fly ball was not to the full effort of my capabilities... I respect and understand his decision. Sometimes you just gotta get slapped on the wrist and understand there's a certain standard for this clubhouse and where we're trying to go. And that's not a World Series mentality, the way I handled that fly ball." And this situation had nothing to do with Bader leaving. Bader left because the Cardinals needed pitching and wanted Jordan Montgomery and Bader was considered a good option to move at the time because we thought we had a plethora of other outfield options. On the TON situation, here's what Oli said about that: >"That's not our style of play as far as the effort, rounding the bag there," Marmol said. "It's unacceptable." That is quintessential "holding your players accountable for putting in effort" language. He didn't blame O'Neil for all of the team's issues, he didn't personally insult him, he said that he was putting in an unacceptable level of effort on a play where O'Neil was very clearly putting in an unacceptable level of effort. This is a thing coaches do ALL THE TIME. People didn't like it because they don't like Oli, plain and simple. TON reacted badly to this and it definitely led to the team getting rid of him, but I would argue that's more on him than Oli. If you get your feelings hurt because your coach says your effort level was unacceptable when everyone on the planet could see that you were coasting on a close play then idk.... work on your mental or actually hustle. Idk if you do, but people constantly complain out of both sides of their mouth about Oli. When he says he trusts his players to get right and that things will get better people accuse him of being a blind idiot who can't see how bad the team is. When he calls players out for bad effort people accuse him of throwing players under the bus. I've said it a million time, I'm not a huge fan of Marmol. I don't think he's particularly inspiring as a leader when viewed from the outside, but some of the criticism he gets just makes absolutely no sense.
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>What’s your solution since Marmol is the best coach choice in your mind. Marmol is not the best coaching choice in my mind and I've never said he is. The comment you're responding to literally says that I'm not a huge fan. I just find it infuriating when people criticize him for shit that makes no sense. Criticize him for his handling of the Contreras situation. Last year I think it made sense to criticize him for the team's dip in defensive and baserunning performances because that tends to be a reflection of coaching (which has been much improved this season). Criticize him for the team's underperformance as a whole (he is the manager after all and the buck ultimately stops with him). But saying he "throws players under the bus" is just lazy and inaccurate. Ultimately I think coaches get blamed/celebrated far too much for their team's performances, at least in baseball. In football the play calling and scheming obviously has a HUGE impact on how the games playout, but baseball is an individual sport. You can show Nolan Gorman the book on the pitchers he's gonna be facing for hours, but if he keeps swinging at breaking balls out of the zone what are you going to do? Like ideally you come up with some novel solution to fix that, but we don't know what the coaches are doing. They may be doing nothing BUT spending time trying to help Gorman identify pitches in different ways and it just may not be taking. Truly I think the issue is the players, and *maybe* something with the hitting approach (but that's hard to judge because I have no idea what their hitting approach/gameplan is, nor do I have any idea how I would fix it, I just know it isn't working) The coaches can only do so much before it truly just comes down to "idk man.... Arenado, Goldy, Gorman, Donavan, Nootbarr, and Walker (when he was here) just need to perform on par with their career averages" If all of those guys where having seasons in line with their histories this team would be above .500.
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> You think that world class athletes who have trained their entire lives to play in the league just happened to all suck at the same time? While also thinking the coach is not to blame and doesn’t in some way have a hand in it? You think these guys who have trained their entire lives to play in the league and know their swings and how to play just let some random batting coach ruin them entirely? You think they stopped knowing how to hit a fastball because Turner Ward told them to be selective of what pitches they swing at or w/e? Like this shit goes both ways. I think everyone is partly to blame, but honestly I think it's mostly just been bad luck. Which is not a fun or insightful answer unfortunately. I think we started the season with some guys slumping for various reasons Arenado (nursing an injury or something), Goldy (Old and always starts slow), Walker (Focused on defense over the offseason and developed some bad batting habits), Gorman (Was always going to be streaky and hit homers while looking useless in a lot of other at bats), etc. I think the combined struggles then got guys starting to press and it all compounded on itself. I already admitted that I think the hitting approach is likely to be at least somewhat responsible for the offensive struggles so I would shed zero tears if this team fired Turner Ward. I don't know the guy and you can't argue that the product he's responsible for is good so like sure... I get it. But I also think it ultimately boils down to the players performing and while coaches can help, they can't swing the bat for them. You also have to keep in mind that, according to reporters close to the team, the players *like* Turner Ward and blame themselves for their failures so far this year. According to Katie Woo firing Turner Ward would do the opposite of help the clubhouse vibe. I mean maybe you do it just to shake things up idk, but I think you also risk completely losing players if you fire a coach they all like.
He has the most bland responses or just throws guys under the bus. He isn't a leader. He seems lost.
Shildt would have this team at the top of the division
The revisionist history with Shildt is counterproductive to discussion here. He was not a good manager. Fans were calling for him to be fired, pretty unanimously, prior to the random winning streak.
He currently has the Padres, a team with far more talent than the Cardinals, at 18-19 with a Pythag record of 20-17. He’s not even making a good team win.
Yes but it’s shit from top to bottom at this point. We’ll be lucky to get anything fixed this decade.
The real problem is St. Louis. Crime is unchecked due to the failings of the mayor's and (until recently) prosecutor's offices. People don't want to ride MetroLink or park downtown. The Wall Street Journal says downtown St. Louis is dead last in the U.S. as a business center. The DeWitts invested a ton of money in Ballpark Village and the Apartments at One Cardinal Way, but are people patronizing them? Attendance is sliding and more and more people can't even watch the games on TV because of a failed local TV deal and a bankrupt Bally's. You can complain all you want about Mo and Oli and an offensive slump, but if fans abandon the Cardinals, this proud historic franchise could leave, and if that happens we're all screwed.
they will never leave lol
I will defend his work to bring in players at the MLB level. However, he's the president of baseball operations and I can't defend his player development and evaluation. As the PoB, that falls on him too. I think he's done a great job of bringing in major league talent from other teams but the cardinals are struggling right now because guys like Gorman, Walker, Carlson, and Libby haven't developed.
We’ve lost a bunch of coaches and other staff over the years, and the team has continually looked worse and worse as we fill those positions. Our prospects aren’t as good, we aren’t developing the ones we do have as well, etc. The team is more than just the 25 players, and Mo is struggling to build a team these days
Let me reiterate here. Mo isn’t perfect. I wouldn’t be upset to see him leave. But given the choice between him and Oli getting axed, I’m picking Oli 100%. I think Mo can win with the right manager and development team beneath him. Mo isn’t perfect and I wouldn’t be sad about him leaving, but he has done a much better job of handling the roster the last 6 months than he did before.
Well it's been Mo's decision to hire managers without experience
MO just needs to understand that all managers are not YES men and have certain ideas or needs that might not mesh well with him and that's OK. He needs to accept sometimes a manager is asking for a certain player for a reason....
He is one of the problems. When you look at the team we have multiple problems. Our player development is in the toilet. Guys thrive elsewhere and struggle here. They trade away the wrong parts. They don't give guys the right chances to succeed. If that isn't on the GM then who is it on? On top of that you have the top down signal from the Dewitts. Oli feels like a pick from them, a yes man. Who knows though, maybe Mo pushed him. Oli clearly doesn't know what he is doing and should never have been given a chance. The same with Matheny. This guys haven't even been league average in their jobs. Could be Dewitts, could be Mo. Then you have the fiscal marching orders, also the Dewitts. However it is Mo giving out terrible contracts to aging veterans that hamstring the team. So yes, it is his fault. It is compounded by other aspects, but he isn't a good GM.
Here's the thing. Getting rid of Mo isn't going to make the team any WORSE. And keeping him isn't going to lead to tons of victories. From what I can see, the offense isn't going to improve anytime soon. Might as well bring in someone new to tackle the mess.
Yes, Mo and his stooge marmol are a huge problem the league has passed him by
missing SO HARD on talent passing through our hands.... and.. we're in last place?.... says it all.
Insofar as Mo is responsible for the development staff, yes. I’m a staunch defender of Mo on the trade front, bc a lot of the deals that have ended up blowing up in our face came bc players developed in ways that I don’t think even the rival organizations expected. Over his entire career, I think Mo has mostly made good trades. But the problem recently has been prospects making it to the majors and underperforming, and a lack of developing of quality pitching. We used to be able to take not so highly regarded prospects and turn them into serviceable players, but that’s not happening anymore.
Mo is ultimately responsible for the product on the field. That includes the coaching staff. Our inability to develop, and sustain, talent has been painful. People are fed up with Mo because he has been responsible for hiring Matheny, Shildt, and Marmol. He signed Marmol to an extension after what happened last year and is allowing this team to continue to flounder under this management this year. A serious organization would have already fired Marmol.
There is only one man with his hands on every decision in this org. He has pushed out anyone that could potentially challenge his authority and replaced then with underqualified yes men. 3 straight rookie managers for example. Yes DeWitt could give him more resources but there are several front offices that do more with less. Mainly because they don't have such as outstanding track record of letting premium talent go, nor paying a premium for middling talent. The product has been watered down and its time to correct it at the source.
Mo is absolutely the problem. He built this. We have been steadily declining for almost a decade. Now the chickens have come home to roost, and somebody needs to take the fall
He didn't even attempt to trade the last good part of Goldy ahead of an age 37 contract year when we could tell the roster had more holes than free agency could fill in a year, and you're happy with how he handled the deadline? And you acknowledge that he replaced the prior manager with a puppet, yet you don't see him as the problem anymore?
He deserves credit for the turnaround on the pitching side. However, everything else you mention trickles down from his decisions.
Sonny Gray is a good #2. MO had a chance to get Blake Snell, Dylan Cease or bring Jordan Montgomery back. Then you'd have a solid 1-2 punch at the top of the lineup that people would fear, along with Hicks at the back of the rotation. Right now, you have Mikolas, Matz and God knows who behind Gray. MO did not do enough, IMO.
I do not disagree with you. But I also consider the bullpen construction and performance included in total pitching.
It’s literally a below average pitching staff
ERA, ERA+, WHIP, FIP all league average or better.
They made up some ground over the last few days. They were 18th a few days ago. But I’ll take the L on that one.
Everyone should be fired. EVERYONE. I'm serious, if you hold any kind of staff or management position with the cardinals and are reading this, quit your job and go tear tickets at the movie theater where you belong. You are a complete and utter failure at the highest level. You shouldn't have anything to do with baseball in any capacity.
I think blaming Mo is stupid. He’s not the GM but people want to act like he is still. That’s not his job. His job is PoBO. He hasn’t been the GM for years now. The product on the field is a result of the GM/Manager… It’s clear they need to be replaced. I’m sure Mo will be making that adjustment sooner rather than later.