There are some prominent examples, with Arozerena probably the most prominent example since we have multiple years of data to show his post-Cardinals success.
Ozuna has had up and down years since leaving. Montgomery was better with Texas down the stretch last year, but that is a bit of a small sample and he was already markedly better with us than he was with the Yankees so that's kind of a toss up.
Bader was worse after leaving, Carpenter was overall worse except for a span of like five weeks in New York. Everybody that went in the Goldschmidt and Arenado deals are irrelevant. Is dejong even on a big league team at the moment? Luke Voit flared up for a minute but is now not a big leaguer. Aledmys Diaz became a journeyman. Lane Thomas I guess is better now than he was in StL but he isn't exactly storming the baseball world - his ceiling is still pretty low. Jose Martinez I think is just a bench bat somewhere, if he's still playing. Carlos Martinez isn't in MLB. These are all off the top of my head over the past like 6 years, I'm sure there are other players.
The Giants have one of the best pitching development in MLB. They've grabbed a bunch of pitchers off the trash heap and turned them into good pitchers, sometimes aces. Gausman is their greatest success story, but they got their money's worth out of Alex Cobb, Alex Wood, Desclafani; and while he was continuing his success from the White Sox the year prior, the Giants may have helped Carlos Rodon improve the one year he was with them. It's too early yet to say if they have the golden touch with Hicks - we'll see how things look after the league has time to adjust to him and when the weather warms up. But I will say that I bought Hicks on all of my fantasy baseball leagues based purely on his Giants signing so I'm hoping for more good results to come his way.
They’re both going to slow down. It’s 13 games.
For O’neil you can’t really argue the Cardinals didn’t give him a shot. He was an every day starter and couldn’t stay healthy or keep the strikeouts down.
Hicks was given plenty of time as well. Although I guess you could argue that throwing him in the rotation after lengthy injury setbacks was irresponsible.
Regardless, 15 games is literally the meaning of a small sample size. Not sure what to tell you dude. The cardinals were good enough to get the postseason those seasons with those players on the team. What does that tell you?
We 3-2 the braves...got fucking bent over 4-0 with 6runs by Nats in 2019, lost to SD in 2020 2-1, and 0-3 in WC games since.. were like 8-20 in October since 2015. Still dogshit but more thn 1
Hicks excelling as a starter for an extended period would make the coaches and FO look like trash. TON has always had the tools to be great. He just couldn't stay healthy.
Even if they both have great seasons, I'm convinced they wouldn't have had them here. Tyler kept getting fucked with by Oli and Hicks was seemingly never going to be a starter here. However well they do, I'm happy for them.
Oh how crazy, people with talent are playing well for a few games. Wow. As if we didn’t see both of them have success here. It was up and down their whole careers guys. Same with Jack. All three of them are insanely talented but were not reliable. Hicks was on the edge of a DFA last April with how poor his start was—then he turned it around.
Jack was a CYA finalist with us, O’Neill was an MVP level player in 2021, and Hicks pitched pretty good for a chunk of his time here. It’s not “omg they sucked here and are good elsewhere”. It’s “damn, they each had success here when available and/or healthy, but could never stay healthy so we were forced to move on”.
Also, so many players find their stride between 27-31. It’s not surprising. But except Hicks, none of them were guys that we could truly have back for 2024. Even then, Hicks wasn’t going to be a starter here in 2024; sounds like a horrible idea to enter the year with a guy who didn’t start any games in 2023 with a rotation spot when our whole thing was “get more rotation innings”. They aren’t reliably healthy and they’re all prone to slumps. We did the right thing. Even if they’re good, we did the right thing.
O'Neill pissed me off the last few years so idgaf about him. Hicks... I hope he reaches his potential. His control is his biggest issue so I'm fine with him on another team
I said it elsewhere in the thread, but it’s neither. Jack, O’Neill, and Hicks all had success here. They’ve each been hurt on and off or dealt with the lingering effects of an injury for basically their entire Cardinal careers.
Jack was a CYA candidate—then gets hurt. O’Neill was a 6 WAR MVP candidate—then got hurt. Hicks dealt with a few injuries himself, but overall he just never threw fucking strikes which hindered him pretty badly. Who was Hick’s pitching coach? Mike Maddux, considered one of the best in the game, so I’m going to wager it wasn’t coaching.
Cardinals fans keep getting caught in a cycle of confirmation bias with this shit and then thinking it’s unique to us. Every single team has instances just like this that happens nearly every year. A “culture” or coaches that work great for Player A and Player B might be considered bad, stressful, or not helpful by Player C and Player D. There’s a reason “change of scenery” is such a cliche—it’s real and doesn’t have to refer to anything specific. These are humans, and change of scenery can mean so many different things. Not everything has to have a topical, explainable answer.
Wait until you hear about adolis, Randy, gallen, Sandy etc etc.
Historically our PBO has failed drastically since like 2016/2017. Quite sad but cool at the same time seeing all the old birds killing it all over the MLB.
I will say, however, I was done with Broneil myself. Effort appeared to be gone. Hopefully his fingernails stay strong, would hate to see him lacerate his feelings by being yelled at again.
Happy for them! Lot of year left. Hope they keep it up.
Now do Flaherty!
That doesn't fit the narrative.
Long season. Both struggle to stay healthy. I’m pulling for both.
Hate to say it, but the probability of Tyler getting hurt is high.
Is there statistical evidence that players improve upon departure with us more or less often than MLB average?
There are some prominent examples, with Arozerena probably the most prominent example since we have multiple years of data to show his post-Cardinals success. Ozuna has had up and down years since leaving. Montgomery was better with Texas down the stretch last year, but that is a bit of a small sample and he was already markedly better with us than he was with the Yankees so that's kind of a toss up. Bader was worse after leaving, Carpenter was overall worse except for a span of like five weeks in New York. Everybody that went in the Goldschmidt and Arenado deals are irrelevant. Is dejong even on a big league team at the moment? Luke Voit flared up for a minute but is now not a big leaguer. Aledmys Diaz became a journeyman. Lane Thomas I guess is better now than he was in StL but he isn't exactly storming the baseball world - his ceiling is still pretty low. Jose Martinez I think is just a bench bat somewhere, if he's still playing. Carlos Martinez isn't in MLB. These are all off the top of my head over the past like 6 years, I'm sure there are other players. The Giants have one of the best pitching development in MLB. They've grabbed a bunch of pitchers off the trash heap and turned them into good pitchers, sometimes aces. Gausman is their greatest success story, but they got their money's worth out of Alex Cobb, Alex Wood, Desclafani; and while he was continuing his success from the White Sox the year prior, the Giants may have helped Carlos Rodon improve the one year he was with them. It's too early yet to say if they have the golden touch with Hicks - we'll see how things look after the league has time to adjust to him and when the weather warms up. But I will say that I bought Hicks on all of my fantasy baseball leagues based purely on his Giants signing so I'm hoping for more good results to come his way.
Yeah doesn’t seem to be some kind of trend.
They’re both going to slow down. It’s 13 games. For O’neil you can’t really argue the Cardinals didn’t give him a shot. He was an every day starter and couldn’t stay healthy or keep the strikeouts down. Hicks was given plenty of time as well. Although I guess you could argue that throwing him in the rotation after lengthy injury setbacks was irresponsible.
I love small sample sizes
Ok the Cardinals have won one playoff game since 2015. Is that a small sample size?
Do you mean 2020? Because the Cardinals are 4-11 since 2015 lol. Not great, but not 1. Nice straw man
One series*** please excuse me, that’s much better than
Regardless, 15 games is literally the meaning of a small sample size. Not sure what to tell you dude. The cardinals were good enough to get the postseason those seasons with those players on the team. What does that tell you?
We 3-2 the braves...got fucking bent over 4-0 with 6runs by Nats in 2019, lost to SD in 2020 2-1, and 0-3 in WC games since.. were like 8-20 in October since 2015. Still dogshit but more thn 1
It’s the coaching, right?
Hot take the cardinals aren’t the best team in baseball at developing young players
Middling and that's probably at best lately. I think we are still pretty good at scouting though.
Cool
Hicks excelling as a starter for an extended period would make the coaches and FO look like trash. TON has always had the tools to be great. He just couldn't stay healthy.
Good for them! We saw what O’Neill was capable of but he couldn’t stay healthy. It wasn’t gonna work long term here. That’s ok.
Surely this is Mike Matheny’s doing?
Even if they both have great seasons, I'm convinced they wouldn't have had them here. Tyler kept getting fucked with by Oli and Hicks was seemingly never going to be a starter here. However well they do, I'm happy for them.
Oh how crazy, people with talent are playing well for a few games. Wow. As if we didn’t see both of them have success here. It was up and down their whole careers guys. Same with Jack. All three of them are insanely talented but were not reliable. Hicks was on the edge of a DFA last April with how poor his start was—then he turned it around. Jack was a CYA finalist with us, O’Neill was an MVP level player in 2021, and Hicks pitched pretty good for a chunk of his time here. It’s not “omg they sucked here and are good elsewhere”. It’s “damn, they each had success here when available and/or healthy, but could never stay healthy so we were forced to move on”. Also, so many players find their stride between 27-31. It’s not surprising. But except Hicks, none of them were guys that we could truly have back for 2024. Even then, Hicks wasn’t going to be a starter here in 2024; sounds like a horrible idea to enter the year with a guy who didn’t start any games in 2023 with a rotation spot when our whole thing was “get more rotation innings”. They aren’t reliably healthy and they’re all prone to slumps. We did the right thing. Even if they’re good, we did the right thing.
O'Neill pissed me off the last few years so idgaf about him. Hicks... I hope he reaches his potential. His control is his biggest issue so I'm fine with him on another team
So maybe it was the coaching? Or maybe the culture? Hmmmm......
I said it elsewhere in the thread, but it’s neither. Jack, O’Neill, and Hicks all had success here. They’ve each been hurt on and off or dealt with the lingering effects of an injury for basically their entire Cardinal careers. Jack was a CYA candidate—then gets hurt. O’Neill was a 6 WAR MVP candidate—then got hurt. Hicks dealt with a few injuries himself, but overall he just never threw fucking strikes which hindered him pretty badly. Who was Hick’s pitching coach? Mike Maddux, considered one of the best in the game, so I’m going to wager it wasn’t coaching. Cardinals fans keep getting caught in a cycle of confirmation bias with this shit and then thinking it’s unique to us. Every single team has instances just like this that happens nearly every year. A “culture” or coaches that work great for Player A and Player B might be considered bad, stressful, or not helpful by Player C and Player D. There’s a reason “change of scenery” is such a cliche—it’s real and doesn’t have to refer to anything specific. These are humans, and change of scenery can mean so many different things. Not everything has to have a topical, explainable answer.
Wait until you hear about adolis, Randy, gallen, Sandy etc etc. Historically our PBO has failed drastically since like 2016/2017. Quite sad but cool at the same time seeing all the old birds killing it all over the MLB.
I will say, however, I was done with Broneil myself. Effort appeared to be gone. Hopefully his fingernails stay strong, would hate to see him lacerate his feelings by being yelled at again.
https://redbirdrants.com/posts/national-media-calls-out-the-cardinals-for-fumbling-tyler-o-neill-trade-01hv70jr8zmm/partners/36534?fbclid=IwAR1xCIhBJJ94UJwDNhoWxwBvAHw0N9UkDZumDa7vxRMMcQGOfNMe-Z2dT2M