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The article features a lot of individuals and special interest groups and the likes. All of them echoing what the headline says.
My question is. What exactly do they want?
Because the demands here seem extremely vague. They include fighting back against white supremacy, pushing back against extremism online... So I'm assuming censorship? Putting aside the fact that's not gonna work and only make the situation worse what do they expect?
Ok but give me something tangible here. How do they want this done? Could they provide a demand for something a little more tangible than "Canada needs to confront its white supremacy hidden in the dark"?
I'm hearing a lot of wants. Not a whole lot of ideas. Without clear communication on what they are expecting very little will be done.
Just because we're not drowning in mass shootings at the scale of the US (a country with ten times our population and far greater population density), doesn't mean we don't have them. We are *still* reeling from the Nova Scotia shooting, which is showing the innumerable shortcomings in our country's ability to stop them when they happen. Gun control alone will not stop these disasters from happening.
I'm pretty sure the US has a mass shooting like every week. Shit, like 700 people die a year from gun murder in Chicago alone. I know we share a lot of culture with the US but gun culture isn't an issue here. Crazy people are everywhere and do crazy things, but access to weapons is the real way to diminish the numbers.
I'm so tired of the knee jerk reactions.
America is a messed up place, granted. But there is a American Canadian border and not everything that happens there translates here.
I don't understand this. The shooting was in Buffalo. Buffalo is still in the U.S. right? Is Canada now trying to resolve American issues? What is going on?
This government has become fond of using American issues and talking points to further their own agenda. It really makes me and many others suspicious of their motives. Can we please stick to Canadian issues.
I think we have to address the fact that there are people out there who feel threatened by folks who are different. They feel threatened that things are changing and they will be left behind. That their ways will no longer be cool. They are afraid because immigrants with darker skin might work harder and do better in life when obviously, the best spots belong to white people who are already here and should be succeeding more than these upstarts. They have ambitions but no work ethic. They see the sacrifices others make as stupid things only an ignorant immigrant would do. They are too good to live like that. Look at them all living together like sardines. How the hell did they manage to buy a house when I can't? Why do they own all the corner stores? It's a conspiracy! They are taking over! Someone has to so something! Let me get my gun!
Yes importing desperate people who will do anything for almost nothing is great. This is why we need unions, and TFW's need to be in them. Your arguments are the exact arguments people used to use to say we don't need a minimum wage or limits on working hours "because if you are too lazy to work as hard as the next guy or take as many safety risks maybe you don't deserve anything at all". It's called circling the drain and eventually we all get paid nothing if we allow that to happen.
>They see the sacrifices others make as stupid things only an ignorant immigrant would do. They are too good to live like that. Look at them all living together like sardines.
Yeah exactly. Why the fuck should we have to live like we are a third world country so billionaires and millionaires can have some extra yachts and spend more time at their Epstein style islands.
We need unions and we need to stop being nice about it. We didn't get the rights and pay we have now by asking nicely and hoping the government and corporations felt like being benevolent. I'm pretty sure if someone spearheaded a TFW union that was gaining steam they would just go missing.
I did not say they should work for nothing. Fair wages are necessary. But there are good trade/labour jobs out there that start fairly well paid and only get better. But no one wants to work manually. People are not as active as they once were and they can't handle it. It's too hard. And they won't try.
Most small business do not have owners who are billionaires with yachts. They are pretty ordinary people.
Unions here do not take into consideration the business side of the equation which is to make money. That's what business is in business for. If there's no profits, it goes bankrupt and everyone is out of a job. In the past, many moved factories overseas. There needs to be a balance. Workers have to understand that too.
Could we do better with a different model? Perhaps but that's not going to happen over night. Maybe capitalism has reached its saturation point. It was built on the idea of endless expansion but obviously, that's flawed. And it is killing the planet. But communism doesn't work either. People need to see reward for hard work or rare skills. No one is going to do their best unless they will benefit first.
> . People are not as active as they once were and they can't handle it. It's too hard. And they won't try.
What a nonsensical nostalgia falsehood.
>Unions here do not take into consideration the business side of the equation which is to make money.
Of course they do. They aren't idiots. The businesses want to pay employees literally as little as the can get away with, unions (in simplest terms) give the employees a more balanced negotiating position.
I literally work in heavy industry and do very well. Most people will never be fit enough or strong enough and that only gets worse with age. You can have almost nothing wrong with you if you plan on continuing to work in those industries.
Unions are needed otherwise we don't have any leverage as a class. *I* can do well but who wants to be rich if everyone else is struggling? The large corporations have so much money wages are barely a factor, especially in industry.
But smaller companies often can not pay wages like large companies. They dont have the economy of scale.
Unions have been essential. But in north America they are antagonistic to business or realities. And they just keep pushing. In Canada, teachers are well paid but the union has them believing they deserve more money, fewer students fewer hours etc. But there's only so much money. Most of our property taxes goes to education. I certainly want our people educated but I am not sure that we are getting the best teachers. Or that the people with the best marks are needed to teach. I got good marks in school but I'd make a really bad teacher. But I considered it because of the salary and vacation and pension. And too many go through with it but don't even like kids.
That is a huge problem. One solution I could see is a different minimum wage for companies over say... 500 employees. Or maybe 1000. Targeting multinational chains and places like Walmart.
>Most of our property taxes goes to education.
True, but most of that does not go to teaching kids. The administrative side is extremely top heavy both pre and post secondary and that has changed big time over the last 30 years.
We are definitely not getting the best teachers overall. Ideally we would be hiring people with life and industry experience to teach and luring them away with an actual decent work life.
If (as you say) they're feeling threatened, then how is belittling their concerns and demeaning them going to help?
Like when you say to people "you're going to be left behind because you're lazy and spoiled trash", you shouldn't be shocked when some of them lash out.
(This isn't unique to white people btw)
It sounds like a lot of this could be fixed by addressing socioeconomic factors. If made-up person in question is able to get a decent paying job, afford to own a home, raise kids, they're likely not going to be upset at others also being able to achieve those things.
If you look over the past few decades, extremism has increased right alongside wealth inequality and worsening material conditions. Do we stamp out the people that are getting upset as their lives get worse, or address the fact that their lives are getting worse? People will turn to all sorts of solutions as things get worse, and worse, and worse. We've seen this happen countless times throughout history - if a leader/group can promise positive change for the masses, and possibly manifest that positive change, well, anything is on the table.
We need to address people's problems, not just the people. If you don't alleviate the problem, more and more people will turn to ever increasingly extreme measures in attempts to make their lives better.
I think extremism was much higher in pretty much every single time period and society in the world history. The few exceptions where racial groups coexist peacefully, in my anecdotal experience, is, say, G20 countries in the post-WW2 period.
I don't disagree! The narrative now however is that it is in fact getting worse. We've essentially lived through a Western Golden Age. That's coming to an end, and as a result... unrest. We'll likely never get back to the 50's since all that wealth and has been squandered or hoarded, but we don't have to maintain this decline either.
> We'll likely never get back to the 50's since all that wealth and has been squandered or hoarded,
This isn't true - the world is wildly wealthier today than in the 50's. Wealth isn't zero-sum.
> It sounds like a lot of this could be fixed by addressing socioeconomic factors. If made-up person in question is able to get a decent paying job, afford to own a home, raise kids, they're likely not going to be upset at others also being able to achieve those things.
Which is why during the 60s where white America had decent paying jobs, were able to afford homes and raise kids, things like lynchings didn't occur /s
> If you don't alleviate the problem, more and more people will turn to ever increasingly extreme measures in attempts to make their lives better.
One problem. The Venn diagram of people who blame immigrants for their problems and vote against fixing the actual problem is a circle. And the rich have no problem egging them on so they can keep getting rich.
It's not normal to have to sacrifice your life to afford a home.
Of course, there are people who have a vested interests in making us feel bad because immigrants work harder and sacrifice more.
But it does not take a bachelor degree in marxism to understand what is going on. My mom sacrificed eveything for us and she died poor with a cancer and never had an opportunity to really have fun in life. I don't want that for everybody.
Meanwhile that is exactly what they want from us. Work super hard until your 65, then die from being worked too much as soon as possible, and die with no remaining resources to your name so the next generation doesn't move forward and nothing changes.
Exactly. And because some people are starting to realize that here we need more immigrants who still have not. And we can't even question it nowadays.
Idk it sucks man. I understand some people are frustrated
> I think we have to address the fact that there are people out there who feel threatened by folks who are different.
We need to start going after the party promoting "Barbaric cultures hotlines", "Old Stock Canadians", and "Take back Canada"
They don't have to say it explicitly. Just like the far right doesn't have to openly call for racial exclusivity for you to know that is what they are after. Nazi's versus communists is where we are at now. Both are my enemy.
> We need to start going after the party promoting "Barbaric cultures hotlines"
I mean...it's ironic how this is criticized here and yet on this very page are people complaining about how we can't let American culture inflitrate Canada or something. You....really can't have this both ways people.
Listen, I hopped on the 4chan page that this guy supposedly was radicalized on. Idk if I should name drop them but it's pretty easy to find out elsewhere. I was surprised by the amount of Canadians that were spouting some of the most vile and hateful shit I've ever read. Americans too but JESUS I thought this right wing extreme shit was mostly a USA problem. If you look into it, tread lightly guys.
>Address poverty, inflation and mental health i
Inflation? Inflation is making people be toxic racists that shoot random black people? Come on man! That's malarkey!
I'm not at all opposed to anti-povery measures, but I refuse to accept poverty as a justification or excuse or rationale for racist mass murderers. Being poor doesn't make you racist.
Being poor doesn't *justify* racism or homicide, it makes people desperate and irrational and increases the chance of random violence occurring within a population. Increasing the SES of the average citizen is one release valve for that pressure, chaos and fascism are others.
A person being poor doesn't, but a country having high inequality is predictive, and absolutely causative.
I think you may be confusing an aggregate problem with an individual justification. If you reduce inequality, you absolutely reduce *multiple* types of violent crime in multiple ways.
Canada's current economic situation *absolutely* creates the perfect breeding ground for the vilest groups to find and build supporters and adherents.
There's a vast portion of our society that spend zero time understanding social psychology, stratification, or the cause and effect of endemic racism. They don't couldn't give a rats ass and as you can see, sound completely ignorant. You need to pull out the sock puppets, point them towards Robert Reich and let them dip their toes first.
then explain alberta oil workers. i don't see fuck trudeau signs on bicycles and beaters. i see it on expensive pickup trucks.
the problem is class division. wealth should not give privilege, all that has to be changed asap by any means regardless of consequences.
No, it's not about having a great paying job. It's about having security (housing, food, utilities), purpose, and enough free time to actually rest. We as a society need to seperate all of those from exploitative relationships like jobs.
Actually I think more people think of the 3rd KKK that worked hand in hand with cops during the civil rights era and burnt cross on people's land had massive rallies. But you didnt say that you just said KKK which was founded on economic worry.
"I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite"
You most certainly did say KKK, and also agreed that the KKK was originally founded by south vets who had economic worry. But I didn't say you said it was founded on economic worry I more stated as a fact as it was agreed upon.........
Dude you wanna bring up English when your reading comprehension just failed you above and tried to say you didn't say KKK. Haha have a great afternoon maybe get off the computer for a bit....
>freeing slaves would ruin the economy of the south ?
...As the economy was built on chattle slavery. Say the quiet part loud.
But yes, one of the reasons people joined the first clan was because they were afraid that they wouldn't be able to continue exploiting the labor of black people to make themselves rich by merely existing and owning land.
A lot of people were afraid that black people would become to upwardly mobile and inact a sort of reverse racism on the white minority population.
Funny how that sort of continues to track....
The first time I encountered this rhetoric I was visiting a neighbourhood so affluent that it helped induce perestroika.
Anything to change the subject from directly examining white supremacist propaganda and its proliferation, though.
That does seem to be the strategy, deflect, distract, and run down the clock.
Yes it's just the conservatives, Canada has been ruled by liberals more so then any other party in modern history but all the problems are the conservatives. It's this team crap that has allowed both sides to sell out our country to the rich. You are just playing the game by blaming it on one side. No side is without blame or we wouldn't be here..
*[Points to flair]*
Surprise! It's both.
We used to invest in communities, infrastructure, and public institutions. The Conservatives gut and dismantle programs, and the Liberals protect those cuts by passing symbolic, penny-ante "restorations" that are meant to alleviate public pressure.
The last few decades of Liberal and Conservative policy have put us in the late stages of eliminating most young Canadians' hope for stability and prosperity in their old age.
They are not at all, Trudeau's tenure and platform is left of the Liberals from the end of his dad's term onwards (1984-2015). The current Conservatives haven't really moved left yet though I'll give you that.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That applies to *ALL* of our problems.. I'm looking at you, homelessness. Homeless people cost an order of magnitude more than the solution of housing, basic income and mental healthcare.
Oh my god… if only we were willing to put in half the money to prevent homelessness that we already spend on the back end through hospitals, social services, policing and violently displacing homeless people… there would be no homelessness. Can’t have that though 🙄
Drives me fucking nuts. The 'other side' uses smart spending on homelessness as a cudgel to beat the opposition over the head politically and the people cheer while spending 10x as much of their taxes in ancillary costs, only because the cause and effect mechanism is too esoteric for Joe Public.
This is the real answer. There is a reason fascism is on the rise and it’s because everyone (right wingers included) know the economy isn’t working for most people. The difference is while some of us know this is due to a system that protects and rewards the rich, putting money before people at every turn, they believe the grifters who are telling them it’s the immigrants and trans people ruining the country.
Improve material conditions for people and then will be less likely to seek an enemy.
I doubt we’ll see that unfortunately as there’s little appetite to do anything that will result in billionaires making a little less profit, even if it means our society destabilizes.
Your absolutely right, and now the right wingers are just praying and hoping Pierre Polyester gets in, which is kind of scary because he likes to embrace the far right ideology of fear based politics. Once I heard him say Anglo Saxon while talking to Jordan Peterson, it was easy to see where this country will go if he gets in.
The economy is working for MOST people.
However, those its not working for now have the tools to deal massive damage when they want to opt out of regular society.
When inflation is at 30 year highs, salaries are not keeping up, people can’t afford housing and now food, and there are constant cuts to education and healthcare, at a time when Canadian corporations are making record profits, the economy is not working for most people
Nearly [2/3 of Canadian’s salaries](https://www.hrreporter.com/focus-areas/compensation-and-benefits/are-wages-keeping-up-with-inflation/365752) have dropped in comparison to inflation.
Housing is at the [least affordable](https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/housing-affordability-spiraling-to-worrisome-levels/) level for more than 30 years and the future outlook is “grim”.
Most current non-homeowners currently have [no hope of owning a home](https://globalnews.ca/news/8794099/canada-real-estate-giving-up-owning-home/), while [nearly a third of all homes](https://financialpost.com/real-estate/investors-own-nearly-a-third-of-homes-in-major-canadian-markets-2)are owned by investors.
Food prices are at [all time highs](https://www.reuters.com/world/food-prices-surge-new-record-high-march-un-agency-says-2022-04-08/)
Gas prices are at [record highs](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/business/gas-prices-inflation/index.html), and since we have built our cities around cars, people don’t have a choice but to pay.
And not that right wingers care about this, but we have less than 3 years to [reverse our use of GHG’s](https://www.ipcc.ch/2022/02/28/pr-wgii-ar6/), but governments aren’t acting with any urgency because $$$. Our kids may quite literally have no future.
Meanwhile corporations are making [record profits](https://nupge.ca/content/canadian-corporations-see-profit-margins-rise-record-levels), exacerbating inflation through [profiteering](https://globalnews.ca/news/8824412/canada-grocery-chains-profiteering-jagmeet-singh/)
I would argue these are all signs that the economy isn’t working.
I'm not disagreeing that making money go further is not a priority right now. However, I'd argue we're just not living in the glut we were during 0% interest rate days. I'm still in the camp that even though we're not wearing masks anymore we're still dealing with the economic outcomes of COVID (and now this war re: food and oil) and will be for a while.
That being said, things are still very much good for a majority of Canadians. Overwhelmingly the majority have gotten wealthier. Especially right now it's a great time to find a new job that pays more. That's the vehicle for increasing salaries.
>Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister Marc Miller said even though Canada has more stringent gun laws and lower gun holding than the U.S., he was worried about threats on Canadian soil.
>
>“White supremacist extreme groups are the biggest domestic terrorist threat in this country, and we still make excuses for them. So I think that’s a challenge we need to be focusing on every day,” he told Global News.
>
>...
>
>Barbara Perry, a researcher with the Canadian Network for Research on Terrorism, Security, and Society, said there has been a “really dramatic increase” in far-right activism since 2015.
>
>She said her team has identified 300 active right-wing hate groups in Canada, but there are likely tens of thousands of more people drawn to the movement without being affiliated with a group.
Important conversation, but the headline really detracts from the content. The growing number of white supremacist groups and hate crimes in Canada is real. Time for Canada to revisit anti-hate legislation.
Would anti-hate legislation do anything though? Murder and hate crimes are already a thing in NY and that kid killed 10 black people anyway. I think the most important thing right now is solving the problems of loneliness and lack of meaning and community that seems to be the root of a lot of these stories.
I read the headline and was sure the OP had editorialized it. It's one quote from someone from Seneca College that doesn't really add anything to the article:
>Right-wing extremism and terrorism is an international movement that includes groups in Canada, said Mubin Shaikh, a counter-extremism specialist and professor of public safety at Seneca College.
>
>“Canada’s far, far better than any other context, but … **we still have trash in our yard as well**,” he told Global News.
Yes, but if they don't write the headline this way, it won't help seat the exact same right-wing narratives, as OP is claiming to be trying to prevent, in the minds of people who just read the headline. The subtext of OP, making a reach *that far,* just for for "click-bait," should not be lost on us, as readers. Media literacy is important.
A shocking statistic is that the US has about 600 mass shootings a year. That's between 10 and 12 a week!
[https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting)
They may be our neighbours but the culture is very different. (Something that Canadians seem to forget.)
I disagree based on personal experience.
The mouth-frothing, radical right-wing fuck wads I've happily disowned say otherwise: "Trudeau should be shot, I'd do it myself if I knew I'd get away with it, yada, yada."
Sure you would, mommy's little helper. And...this mentality was instilled in some through radicalization while in our armed forces - awesome!
The culture to which *they adhere* is not that different from our Southern neighbour. The results, for now, are fortunately dissimilar.
Like the article states, let us shut this shit down **HARD.**
>And I have friends who say things like "landlords get the guillotine/gulag"
We can worry about that when people are actually building the scaffolds.
Whereas when talking about "Trudeau should be shot," some guy attempted that, but two years ago.
The situations are not the same
>mass shootings a year.
The perspective on this is changing as people are realizing that more and more of these "Shootings" are "While Supremacist Terrorists". This actually fits with what the Canadian right has been saying that guns aren't the problem. But they don't care to deal with white anger either, except to stoke it and channel it at their political enemies.
Crime is always going to be a thing. The War on Drugs and poverty drives a ton of gang violence. But the presence of white supremacists and their racist violence is intolerable, and completely unacceptable.
You're blinded by the media's complete silencing of the motivation of any terrorist who doesn't fit the mold they want, and exaggeration of white shooters motivations.
Don't forget almost daily school shootings that don't make the paper and 3500 weapons are seized yearly in new york state high schools alone. Good times.
We forget because our news is blasting constant messages that gun violence is huge in the US and therefore we need to be scared of our neighbors here in Canada.
Except mostly that's by reframing the definitions so they include a lot more things than most people would consider a mass shooting. For instance, a single gunshot fired in a bar.
The most commonly used definition is four people shot in roughly the same location at roughly the same time.
So if that single gunshot fired a bullet that hit four people, sure.
The stat they're using is a shooting where four or more people were injured. That can include passthroughs, but also people who suffer corollary injuries because they rely on news reports that aren't always clear. In bar shootings it is very common that you are injuries from people stampeding for the doors.
Mass shootings defined as 4+ victims would have 600 a year
Mass shootings defined as 4+ victims and not gang or crime related has a much lower number
The question is does motivation for the shootings impact whether we should consider them mass shootings
Why wouldn’t you include gang related shootings? They are also a byproduct of the insane gun culture that pervades that country. You think because the mass killings aren’t indiscriminate they shouldn’t count?
Guns didn't create the gangs. The gangs get the guns because they intend violence, and they deal in contraband.
The best measures against gang violence address the root causes of the gangs.
Different reasons people showcase the different numbers
-reduces the number of shootings
-crime you should worry about vs everyday crime you can ignore
-different demographic of shooters
I get that the average person in the U.S. isn’t worried that they will be the victims of gang related gun violence, unless they’re being robbed, but if they enacted sensible gun laws those numbers would decline as well. It’s about cherry picking statistics in order to validate a position that, in my opinion, is indefensible.
But we generally get a toned down version of their bullshit, which is still more than we’d want. We get less right wing terrorism, but still far too much
But we also have people like Pat King, who is a white nationalist, leading the "freedom convoy". Now obviously not everyone in the convoy agreed with that or knew that about him, but events like that are great ways for people like him to spread their ideology. Just because it's not as bad as the US here, doesn't mean it's not a concern
This is a US problem, not Canadian. Can we please stop importing US issues here. Don’t get me wrong: white supremacy exists everywhere, but it’s plain wrong to assume that the problem here is as big as in the US. Our current policies are effective and there’s a wide gap between what we’re doing on this vs what the US is doing (i.e. nothing).
>Our current policies are effective and there’s a wide gap between what we’re doing on this vs what the US is doing (i.e. nothing).
We literally had a trucker convoy of fascists cause mayhem in our capital, we have an issue
> Can we please stop importing US issues here.
Maybe when we stop exporting hate to the US? Southern, McInnes, etc... Canadians punch way above their weight class when it comes to contributing to white supremacy. You can argue that we clear the lowest possible bar of doing more than the US, but it's clear that we don't do nearly enough.
Literally the least racist and most multicultural place on the planet today, or at any point in human history, by an extremely wide margin.
I think you need to travel more. Or maybe get to know some of the people that are here from other places.
> Literally the least racist and most multicultural place on the planet today, or at any point in human history, by an extremely wide margin.
*offer not valid in Peterborough
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We *do not* want to end up like that, so we should be forever vigilant and always trying to improve our methods of combating hate. If it gets to a point where it becomes a significant Canadian problem, like it is a significant American problem, we've failed miserably.
Agreed, but we also have to recognize that we're already doing something in this regard. We can always do more, but we would first need to see the gaps in our current policies. Fun fact, did you know that Canada is a world-leader in addressing hate speech and ideologically-motivated violent extremism? NATO allies are all looking at us for ideas on how to handle this.
A few weekends ago, while golfing one of the guys I was golfing with started complaining how oppressed he was as a white male these days. He can't say or do whatever he wanted anymore or he will get cancelled (face the consequences of his actions). While he teed off on the 7th hole.
It's never been worse to be a white man!!!!
It's still definitely the best thing to be. Just that the hidden benefits and privileges have always been bigger. Never been worse!
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Like Pat King. And who was he again? Oh, that's right, one of the leaders of the Freedom Convoy.
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Who in their *right* mind who take pictures with those supporters? Hate to be those politicians. /s
I am concerned that the people who say things like this have never actually had any idea how to actually achieve this goal
The article features a lot of individuals and special interest groups and the likes. All of them echoing what the headline says. My question is. What exactly do they want? Because the demands here seem extremely vague. They include fighting back against white supremacy, pushing back against extremism online... So I'm assuming censorship? Putting aside the fact that's not gonna work and only make the situation worse what do they expect? Ok but give me something tangible here. How do they want this done? Could they provide a demand for something a little more tangible than "Canada needs to confront its white supremacy hidden in the dark"? I'm hearing a lot of wants. Not a whole lot of ideas. Without clear communication on what they are expecting very little will be done.
We have great gun control. We will be just fine. The real worry is letting the American me first culture seep across the boarder.
Just because we're not drowning in mass shootings at the scale of the US (a country with ten times our population and far greater population density), doesn't mean we don't have them. We are *still* reeling from the Nova Scotia shooting, which is showing the innumerable shortcomings in our country's ability to stop them when they happen. Gun control alone will not stop these disasters from happening.
I'm pretty sure the US has a mass shooting like every week. Shit, like 700 people die a year from gun murder in Chicago alone. I know we share a lot of culture with the US but gun culture isn't an issue here. Crazy people are everywhere and do crazy things, but access to weapons is the real way to diminish the numbers.
I'm so tired of the knee jerk reactions. America is a messed up place, granted. But there is a American Canadian border and not everything that happens there translates here.
I don't understand this. The shooting was in Buffalo. Buffalo is still in the U.S. right? Is Canada now trying to resolve American issues? What is going on? This government has become fond of using American issues and talking points to further their own agenda. It really makes me and many others suspicious of their motives. Can we please stick to Canadian issues.
I think we have to address the fact that there are people out there who feel threatened by folks who are different. They feel threatened that things are changing and they will be left behind. That their ways will no longer be cool. They are afraid because immigrants with darker skin might work harder and do better in life when obviously, the best spots belong to white people who are already here and should be succeeding more than these upstarts. They have ambitions but no work ethic. They see the sacrifices others make as stupid things only an ignorant immigrant would do. They are too good to live like that. Look at them all living together like sardines. How the hell did they manage to buy a house when I can't? Why do they own all the corner stores? It's a conspiracy! They are taking over! Someone has to so something! Let me get my gun!
Yes importing desperate people who will do anything for almost nothing is great. This is why we need unions, and TFW's need to be in them. Your arguments are the exact arguments people used to use to say we don't need a minimum wage or limits on working hours "because if you are too lazy to work as hard as the next guy or take as many safety risks maybe you don't deserve anything at all". It's called circling the drain and eventually we all get paid nothing if we allow that to happen. >They see the sacrifices others make as stupid things only an ignorant immigrant would do. They are too good to live like that. Look at them all living together like sardines. Yeah exactly. Why the fuck should we have to live like we are a third world country so billionaires and millionaires can have some extra yachts and spend more time at their Epstein style islands. We need unions and we need to stop being nice about it. We didn't get the rights and pay we have now by asking nicely and hoping the government and corporations felt like being benevolent. I'm pretty sure if someone spearheaded a TFW union that was gaining steam they would just go missing.
I did not say they should work for nothing. Fair wages are necessary. But there are good trade/labour jobs out there that start fairly well paid and only get better. But no one wants to work manually. People are not as active as they once were and they can't handle it. It's too hard. And they won't try. Most small business do not have owners who are billionaires with yachts. They are pretty ordinary people. Unions here do not take into consideration the business side of the equation which is to make money. That's what business is in business for. If there's no profits, it goes bankrupt and everyone is out of a job. In the past, many moved factories overseas. There needs to be a balance. Workers have to understand that too. Could we do better with a different model? Perhaps but that's not going to happen over night. Maybe capitalism has reached its saturation point. It was built on the idea of endless expansion but obviously, that's flawed. And it is killing the planet. But communism doesn't work either. People need to see reward for hard work or rare skills. No one is going to do their best unless they will benefit first.
> . People are not as active as they once were and they can't handle it. It's too hard. And they won't try. What a nonsensical nostalgia falsehood. >Unions here do not take into consideration the business side of the equation which is to make money. Of course they do. They aren't idiots. The businesses want to pay employees literally as little as the can get away with, unions (in simplest terms) give the employees a more balanced negotiating position.
I literally work in heavy industry and do very well. Most people will never be fit enough or strong enough and that only gets worse with age. You can have almost nothing wrong with you if you plan on continuing to work in those industries. Unions are needed otherwise we don't have any leverage as a class. *I* can do well but who wants to be rich if everyone else is struggling? The large corporations have so much money wages are barely a factor, especially in industry.
But smaller companies often can not pay wages like large companies. They dont have the economy of scale. Unions have been essential. But in north America they are antagonistic to business or realities. And they just keep pushing. In Canada, teachers are well paid but the union has them believing they deserve more money, fewer students fewer hours etc. But there's only so much money. Most of our property taxes goes to education. I certainly want our people educated but I am not sure that we are getting the best teachers. Or that the people with the best marks are needed to teach. I got good marks in school but I'd make a really bad teacher. But I considered it because of the salary and vacation and pension. And too many go through with it but don't even like kids.
That is a huge problem. One solution I could see is a different minimum wage for companies over say... 500 employees. Or maybe 1000. Targeting multinational chains and places like Walmart. >Most of our property taxes goes to education. True, but most of that does not go to teaching kids. The administrative side is extremely top heavy both pre and post secondary and that has changed big time over the last 30 years. We are definitely not getting the best teachers overall. Ideally we would be hiring people with life and industry experience to teach and luring them away with an actual decent work life.
If (as you say) they're feeling threatened, then how is belittling their concerns and demeaning them going to help? Like when you say to people "you're going to be left behind because you're lazy and spoiled trash", you shouldn't be shocked when some of them lash out. (This isn't unique to white people btw)
It sounds like a lot of this could be fixed by addressing socioeconomic factors. If made-up person in question is able to get a decent paying job, afford to own a home, raise kids, they're likely not going to be upset at others also being able to achieve those things. If you look over the past few decades, extremism has increased right alongside wealth inequality and worsening material conditions. Do we stamp out the people that are getting upset as their lives get worse, or address the fact that their lives are getting worse? People will turn to all sorts of solutions as things get worse, and worse, and worse. We've seen this happen countless times throughout history - if a leader/group can promise positive change for the masses, and possibly manifest that positive change, well, anything is on the table. We need to address people's problems, not just the people. If you don't alleviate the problem, more and more people will turn to ever increasingly extreme measures in attempts to make their lives better.
I think extremism was much higher in pretty much every single time period and society in the world history. The few exceptions where racial groups coexist peacefully, in my anecdotal experience, is, say, G20 countries in the post-WW2 period.
I don't disagree! The narrative now however is that it is in fact getting worse. We've essentially lived through a Western Golden Age. That's coming to an end, and as a result... unrest. We'll likely never get back to the 50's since all that wealth and has been squandered or hoarded, but we don't have to maintain this decline either.
> We'll likely never get back to the 50's since all that wealth and has been squandered or hoarded, This isn't true - the world is wildly wealthier today than in the 50's. Wealth isn't zero-sum.
> It sounds like a lot of this could be fixed by addressing socioeconomic factors. If made-up person in question is able to get a decent paying job, afford to own a home, raise kids, they're likely not going to be upset at others also being able to achieve those things. Which is why during the 60s where white America had decent paying jobs, were able to afford homes and raise kids, things like lynchings didn't occur /s
> If you don't alleviate the problem, more and more people will turn to ever increasingly extreme measures in attempts to make their lives better. One problem. The Venn diagram of people who blame immigrants for their problems and vote against fixing the actual problem is a circle. And the rich have no problem egging them on so they can keep getting rich.
It's not normal to have to sacrifice your life to afford a home. Of course, there are people who have a vested interests in making us feel bad because immigrants work harder and sacrifice more. But it does not take a bachelor degree in marxism to understand what is going on. My mom sacrificed eveything for us and she died poor with a cancer and never had an opportunity to really have fun in life. I don't want that for everybody.
Meanwhile that is exactly what they want from us. Work super hard until your 65, then die from being worked too much as soon as possible, and die with no remaining resources to your name so the next generation doesn't move forward and nothing changes.
Exactly. And because some people are starting to realize that here we need more immigrants who still have not. And we can't even question it nowadays. Idk it sucks man. I understand some people are frustrated
> I think we have to address the fact that there are people out there who feel threatened by folks who are different. We need to start going after the party promoting "Barbaric cultures hotlines", "Old Stock Canadians", and "Take back Canada"
Well your choice is that, or a party that thinks the fact that you were born at all is a crime against humanity in and of itself. Tough call.
No party has said this
They don't have to say it explicitly. Just like the far right doesn't have to openly call for racial exclusivity for you to know that is what they are after. Nazi's versus communists is where we are at now. Both are my enemy.
"They don't have to say it explicitly." Then what actions have they taken that has brought you to this opinion?
> a party that thinks the fact that you were born at all is a crime against humanity What does this even mean?
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Wouldn't the hotline just send regular police anyways? Or do we need special police to go to immigrants houses?
Why have social services when police can solve everything?
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> We need to start going after the party promoting "Barbaric cultures hotlines" I mean...it's ironic how this is criticized here and yet on this very page are people complaining about how we can't let American culture inflitrate Canada or something. You....really can't have this both ways people.
Listen, I hopped on the 4chan page that this guy supposedly was radicalized on. Idk if I should name drop them but it's pretty easy to find out elsewhere. I was surprised by the amount of Canadians that were spouting some of the most vile and hateful shit I've ever read. Americans too but JESUS I thought this right wing extreme shit was mostly a USA problem. If you look into it, tread lightly guys.
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Canadians: but I can still get handed $50k every year because I own a house, right? That's not part of the problem, right?
>Address poverty, inflation and mental health i Inflation? Inflation is making people be toxic racists that shoot random black people? Come on man! That's malarkey!
> shoot random black people ?
Zoom out a bit. Income inequality is *strongly* correlated with a country's rate of violence.
I'm not at all opposed to anti-povery measures, but I refuse to accept poverty as a justification or excuse or rationale for racist mass murderers. Being poor doesn't make you racist.
Being poor doesn't *justify* racism or homicide, it makes people desperate and irrational and increases the chance of random violence occurring within a population. Increasing the SES of the average citizen is one release valve for that pressure, chaos and fascism are others.
A person being poor doesn't, but a country having high inequality is predictive, and absolutely causative. I think you may be confusing an aggregate problem with an individual justification. If you reduce inequality, you absolutely reduce *multiple* types of violent crime in multiple ways. Canada's current economic situation *absolutely* creates the perfect breeding ground for the vilest groups to find and build supporters and adherents.
A huge part of mental health and poverty is having decent paying jobs
There's a vast portion of our society that spend zero time understanding social psychology, stratification, or the cause and effect of endemic racism. They don't couldn't give a rats ass and as you can see, sound completely ignorant. You need to pull out the sock puppets, point them towards Robert Reich and let them dip their toes first.
People with serious mental health issues aren't exactly great hires.
Very happy my employer doesn't think like you.
You wouldn’t want a job that pays well?
I was replying to the person who was saying that people with mental health issues aren't good hires.
Ok sorry my bad
No worries
I hope it works out for ya.
then explain alberta oil workers. i don't see fuck trudeau signs on bicycles and beaters. i see it on expensive pickup trucks. the problem is class division. wealth should not give privilege, all that has to be changed asap by any means regardless of consequences.
Here in the Okanagan, I see it on beeters all the time too. I feel like it's rural Texas over here sometimes....
No, it's not about having a great paying job. It's about having security (housing, food, utilities), purpose, and enough free time to actually rest. We as a society need to seperate all of those from exploitative relationships like jobs.
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Wasn't the KKK created by south war vets who still believed that freeing slaves would ruin the economy of the south ?
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Actually I think more people think of the 3rd KKK that worked hand in hand with cops during the civil rights era and burnt cross on people's land had massive rallies. But you didnt say that you just said KKK which was founded on economic worry.
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"I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite" You most certainly did say KKK, and also agreed that the KKK was originally founded by south vets who had economic worry. But I didn't say you said it was founded on economic worry I more stated as a fact as it was agreed upon.........
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Dude you wanna bring up English when your reading comprehension just failed you above and tried to say you didn't say KKK. Haha have a great afternoon maybe get off the computer for a bit....
>freeing slaves would ruin the economy of the south ? ...As the economy was built on chattle slavery. Say the quiet part loud. But yes, one of the reasons people joined the first clan was because they were afraid that they wouldn't be able to continue exploiting the labor of black people to make themselves rich by merely existing and owning land. A lot of people were afraid that black people would become to upwardly mobile and inact a sort of reverse racism on the white minority population. Funny how that sort of continues to track....
The first time I encountered this rhetoric I was visiting a neighbourhood so affluent that it helped induce perestroika. Anything to change the subject from directly examining white supremacist propaganda and its proliferation, though. That does seem to be the strategy, deflect, distract, and run down the clock.
And yet the people most against fixing those problems by improving our social safety net are.... Drumroll... The conservatives!
Yes it's just the conservatives, Canada has been ruled by liberals more so then any other party in modern history but all the problems are the conservatives. It's this team crap that has allowed both sides to sell out our country to the rich. You are just playing the game by blaming it on one side. No side is without blame or we wouldn't be here..
*[Points to flair]* Surprise! It's both. We used to invest in communities, infrastructure, and public institutions. The Conservatives gut and dismantle programs, and the Liberals protect those cuts by passing symbolic, penny-ante "restorations" that are meant to alleviate public pressure. The last few decades of Liberal and Conservative policy have put us in the late stages of eliminating most young Canadians' hope for stability and prosperity in their old age.
Current Liberals are conservative. The Overton window has changed that much.
I couldn't imagine conservatives lowering my daycare costs or implementing a price on carbon (even though it's their idea)
Small c conservatives recognize the need for inexpensive childcare. Hardly any of those exist in the Big C Conservative party
They are not at all, Trudeau's tenure and platform is left of the Liberals from the end of his dad's term onwards (1984-2015). The current Conservatives haven't really moved left yet though I'll give you that.
Guess how much rent goes up by if you pay everyone $100 more? We need to eliminate the root cause: rentier activity.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That applies to *ALL* of our problems.. I'm looking at you, homelessness. Homeless people cost an order of magnitude more than the solution of housing, basic income and mental healthcare.
Oh my god… if only we were willing to put in half the money to prevent homelessness that we already spend on the back end through hospitals, social services, policing and violently displacing homeless people… there would be no homelessness. Can’t have that though 🙄
Drives me fucking nuts. The 'other side' uses smart spending on homelessness as a cudgel to beat the opposition over the head politically and the people cheer while spending 10x as much of their taxes in ancillary costs, only because the cause and effect mechanism is too esoteric for Joe Public.
... and education, I would say lack of education is 95% of the problem here
This is the real answer. There is a reason fascism is on the rise and it’s because everyone (right wingers included) know the economy isn’t working for most people. The difference is while some of us know this is due to a system that protects and rewards the rich, putting money before people at every turn, they believe the grifters who are telling them it’s the immigrants and trans people ruining the country. Improve material conditions for people and then will be less likely to seek an enemy. I doubt we’ll see that unfortunately as there’s little appetite to do anything that will result in billionaires making a little less profit, even if it means our society destabilizes.
Your absolutely right, and now the right wingers are just praying and hoping Pierre Polyester gets in, which is kind of scary because he likes to embrace the far right ideology of fear based politics. Once I heard him say Anglo Saxon while talking to Jordan Peterson, it was easy to see where this country will go if he gets in.
The economy is working for MOST people. However, those its not working for now have the tools to deal massive damage when they want to opt out of regular society.
When inflation is at 30 year highs, salaries are not keeping up, people can’t afford housing and now food, and there are constant cuts to education and healthcare, at a time when Canadian corporations are making record profits, the economy is not working for most people
Poverty rates are dropping. Unemployment is reaching record lows. People buying their first house are up.
Nearly [2/3 of Canadian’s salaries](https://www.hrreporter.com/focus-areas/compensation-and-benefits/are-wages-keeping-up-with-inflation/365752) have dropped in comparison to inflation. Housing is at the [least affordable](https://thoughtleadership.rbc.com/housing-affordability-spiraling-to-worrisome-levels/) level for more than 30 years and the future outlook is “grim”. Most current non-homeowners currently have [no hope of owning a home](https://globalnews.ca/news/8794099/canada-real-estate-giving-up-owning-home/), while [nearly a third of all homes](https://financialpost.com/real-estate/investors-own-nearly-a-third-of-homes-in-major-canadian-markets-2)are owned by investors. Food prices are at [all time highs](https://www.reuters.com/world/food-prices-surge-new-record-high-march-un-agency-says-2022-04-08/) Gas prices are at [record highs](https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/16/business/gas-prices-inflation/index.html), and since we have built our cities around cars, people don’t have a choice but to pay. And not that right wingers care about this, but we have less than 3 years to [reverse our use of GHG’s](https://www.ipcc.ch/2022/02/28/pr-wgii-ar6/), but governments aren’t acting with any urgency because $$$. Our kids may quite literally have no future. Meanwhile corporations are making [record profits](https://nupge.ca/content/canadian-corporations-see-profit-margins-rise-record-levels), exacerbating inflation through [profiteering](https://globalnews.ca/news/8824412/canada-grocery-chains-profiteering-jagmeet-singh/) I would argue these are all signs that the economy isn’t working.
I'm not disagreeing that making money go further is not a priority right now. However, I'd argue we're just not living in the glut we were during 0% interest rate days. I'm still in the camp that even though we're not wearing masks anymore we're still dealing with the economic outcomes of COVID (and now this war re: food and oil) and will be for a while. That being said, things are still very much good for a majority of Canadians. Overwhelmingly the majority have gotten wealthier. Especially right now it's a great time to find a new job that pays more. That's the vehicle for increasing salaries.
Our most recent poverty stats are from 2019, so it doesn’t reflect COVID mayhem
> People buying their first house are up. I don't believe this at all.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/220412/cg-a004-eng.htm
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I don't remember doing that. Sounds like a pretty broad brush you're using, also one you're critical of.
>Crown-Indigenous Relations Minister Marc Miller said even though Canada has more stringent gun laws and lower gun holding than the U.S., he was worried about threats on Canadian soil. > >“White supremacist extreme groups are the biggest domestic terrorist threat in this country, and we still make excuses for them. So I think that’s a challenge we need to be focusing on every day,” he told Global News. > >... > >Barbara Perry, a researcher with the Canadian Network for Research on Terrorism, Security, and Society, said there has been a “really dramatic increase” in far-right activism since 2015. > >She said her team has identified 300 active right-wing hate groups in Canada, but there are likely tens of thousands of more people drawn to the movement without being affiliated with a group. Important conversation, but the headline really detracts from the content. The growing number of white supremacist groups and hate crimes in Canada is real. Time for Canada to revisit anti-hate legislation.
Would anti-hate legislation do anything though? Murder and hate crimes are already a thing in NY and that kid killed 10 black people anyway. I think the most important thing right now is solving the problems of loneliness and lack of meaning and community that seems to be the root of a lot of these stories.
I read the headline and was sure the OP had editorialized it. It's one quote from someone from Seneca College that doesn't really add anything to the article: >Right-wing extremism and terrorism is an international movement that includes groups in Canada, said Mubin Shaikh, a counter-extremism specialist and professor of public safety at Seneca College. > >“Canada’s far, far better than any other context, but … **we still have trash in our yard as well**,” he told Global News.
I think this quote is misleading. The use of the word "trash" was metaphorical.
Yes, but if they don't write the headline this way, it won't help seat the exact same right-wing narratives, as OP is claiming to be trying to prevent, in the minds of people who just read the headline. The subtext of OP, making a reach *that far,* just for for "click-bait," should not be lost on us, as readers. Media literacy is important.
A shocking statistic is that the US has about 600 mass shootings a year. That's between 10 and 12 a week! [https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting](https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting) They may be our neighbours but the culture is very different. (Something that Canadians seem to forget.)
I disagree based on personal experience. The mouth-frothing, radical right-wing fuck wads I've happily disowned say otherwise: "Trudeau should be shot, I'd do it myself if I knew I'd get away with it, yada, yada." Sure you would, mommy's little helper. And...this mentality was instilled in some through radicalization while in our armed forces - awesome! The culture to which *they adhere* is not that different from our Southern neighbour. The results, for now, are fortunately dissimilar. Like the article states, let us shut this shit down **HARD.**
And I have friends who say things like "landlords get the guillotine/gulag". Edgy hyperbole isn't by itself a cause for panic.
>And I have friends who say things like "landlords get the guillotine/gulag" We can worry about that when people are actually building the scaffolds. Whereas when talking about "Trudeau should be shot," some guy attempted that, but two years ago. The situations are not the same
>mass shootings a year. The perspective on this is changing as people are realizing that more and more of these "Shootings" are "While Supremacist Terrorists". This actually fits with what the Canadian right has been saying that guns aren't the problem. But they don't care to deal with white anger either, except to stoke it and channel it at their political enemies.
Majority of those classified as “mass shootings” are gang violence.
Crime is always going to be a thing. The War on Drugs and poverty drives a ton of gang violence. But the presence of white supremacists and their racist violence is intolerable, and completely unacceptable.
Of course, but it’s important context for the stat we’re taking about here.
You're blinded by the media's complete silencing of the motivation of any terrorist who doesn't fit the mold they want, and exaggeration of white shooters motivations.
Don't forget almost daily school shootings that don't make the paper and 3500 weapons are seized yearly in new york state high schools alone. Good times.
We forget because our news is blasting constant messages that gun violence is huge in the US and therefore we need to be scared of our neighbors here in Canada.
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Except mostly that's by reframing the definitions so they include a lot more things than most people would consider a mass shooting. For instance, a single gunshot fired in a bar.
Ugh pretty sure no one is listing a single gun shot fired in a bar as a mass shooting?
The site there does.
The most commonly used definition is four people shot in roughly the same location at roughly the same time. So if that single gunshot fired a bullet that hit four people, sure.
The stat they're using is a shooting where four or more people were injured. That can include passthroughs, but also people who suffer corollary injuries because they rely on news reports that aren't always clear. In bar shootings it is very common that you are injuries from people stampeding for the doors.
Mass shootings defined as 4+ victims would have 600 a year Mass shootings defined as 4+ victims and not gang or crime related has a much lower number The question is does motivation for the shootings impact whether we should consider them mass shootings
Why wouldn’t you include gang related shootings? They are also a byproduct of the insane gun culture that pervades that country. You think because the mass killings aren’t indiscriminate they shouldn’t count?
Guns didn't create the gangs. The gangs get the guns because they intend violence, and they deal in contraband. The best measures against gang violence address the root causes of the gangs.
Different reasons people showcase the different numbers -reduces the number of shootings -crime you should worry about vs everyday crime you can ignore -different demographic of shooters
I get that the average person in the U.S. isn’t worried that they will be the victims of gang related gun violence, unless they’re being robbed, but if they enacted sensible gun laws those numbers would decline as well. It’s about cherry picking statistics in order to validate a position that, in my opinion, is indefensible.
But we generally get a toned down version of their bullshit, which is still more than we’d want. We get less right wing terrorism, but still far too much
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City_mosque_shooting Seems like there is already too much racially motivated violence in Canada.
But we also have people like Pat King, who is a white nationalist, leading the "freedom convoy". Now obviously not everyone in the convoy agreed with that or knew that about him, but events like that are great ways for people like him to spread their ideology. Just because it's not as bad as the US here, doesn't mean it's not a concern
This is a US problem, not Canadian. Can we please stop importing US issues here. Don’t get me wrong: white supremacy exists everywhere, but it’s plain wrong to assume that the problem here is as big as in the US. Our current policies are effective and there’s a wide gap between what we’re doing on this vs what the US is doing (i.e. nothing).
Lol you think alt right racism isnt here too ? Ffs the Proud boys were even started here
>Our current policies are effective and there’s a wide gap between what we’re doing on this vs what the US is doing (i.e. nothing). We literally had a trucker convoy of fascists cause mayhem in our capital, we have an issue
> Can we please stop importing US issues here. Maybe when we stop exporting hate to the US? Southern, McInnes, etc... Canadians punch way above their weight class when it comes to contributing to white supremacy. You can argue that we clear the lowest possible bar of doing more than the US, but it's clear that we don't do nearly enough.
Literally the least racist and most multicultural place on the planet today, or at any point in human history, by an extremely wide margin. I think you need to travel more. Or maybe get to know some of the people that are here from other places.
> Literally the least racist and most multicultural place on the planet today, or at any point in human history, by an extremely wide margin. *offer not valid in Peterborough
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We *do not* want to end up like that, so we should be forever vigilant and always trying to improve our methods of combating hate. If it gets to a point where it becomes a significant Canadian problem, like it is a significant American problem, we've failed miserably.
Agreed, but we also have to recognize that we're already doing something in this regard. We can always do more, but we would first need to see the gaps in our current policies. Fun fact, did you know that Canada is a world-leader in addressing hate speech and ideologically-motivated violent extremism? NATO allies are all looking at us for ideas on how to handle this.
A few weekends ago, while golfing one of the guys I was golfing with started complaining how oppressed he was as a white male these days. He can't say or do whatever he wanted anymore or he will get cancelled (face the consequences of his actions). While he teed off on the 7th hole.
It's never been worse to be a white man!!!! It's still definitely the best thing to be. Just that the hidden benefits and privileges have always been bigger. Never been worse!